 And we're back here with more discussions and conversations right here on the breakfast and plus TV Africa. But where the extremes and reports of natural disasters make it clear, climate change is dramatically speaking up speed. This makes it all the more important for everyone to join the global movement to tackle climate change by taking action and the International Day Against Climate Change, which is held today, or holding today, October 24, 2022 per cent, a perfect opportunity to do just that. The issues surrounding climate change and changing climate and its effect on the environment have become of interest and importance to Nigerians, especially at a time like this when several parts of the country are submerged by water or by floods. So we have joined us this morning for a conversation on the politics, impacts and responses of climate change. Fantastic interview. He is an environmentalist or environmental activist and founder of Lufasi Park in Lagos. Mr. Desmond Magie Kodumi is our guest this morning. Good morning to you sir and thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Glad to be here. All right. We'll be joined later by Mr. Joe Fermi-Daguru. But starting with you, Mr. Desmond Magie Kodumi, we'd like to keep it simple and to stay foolish so that our listeners can be carried along. For those who really don't have an idea yet, what climate change is all about, can you break it down for them? Yes. Well, the first reality is that this planet Earth that we're all residing on is an extremely unique entity because now we have access to see what it's like on many, many millions of planets all over the cosmos. And this Earth is the only one, the only one that has the capacity to maintain life, okay? And one of the major reasons why this Earth is able to support and maintain life is because of the constitution of its atmosphere, its atmosphere. When you look up in the sky and you see a blue sky, the reason why it's blue is because the sun's rays are reflecting on certain gases that are there. In this particular case, it's the water vapor gas, okay? But there's many other gases there. There's helium, there's neon, there's carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, many gases. Now some of those gases there are making sure that the Earth is at a particular temperature that is not too super cold or it's not too super hot, like some of the planets that are our neighbors, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter, either they're too hot to support any life at all or they're too cold. So some of those gases are called greenhouse gases and there's a particular one called carbon dioxide. That's the gas that we humans and other mammals breathe out, okay? Now that carbon dioxide is very good at trapping some of the sun's heat, but not too much. A lot of it bounces back and release. So the Earth has an average temperature. However, we human beings for the last 200 years have been pumping out hundreds and hundreds and millions and millions of tons of this carbon dioxide, ever since the industrial revolution started when we started burning more wood, more coal, and then later on started burning diesel and petrol and gas. And this extra carbon dioxide is trapping more heat and making the Earth higher in its temperature. It's like if you now have a temperature above two degrees, you know you're sick. And that's what we're doing to the Earth. We're making the Earth sick. So that global warming is what is called, is actually creating the climate change, which is very, very dangerous and we're seeing some of the symptoms now all over the world even in our own dear Nigeria. The floods that we're seeing, a lot of the cause of those floods is because of this climate change. Oh, and by the way, the scientists warned us over 30 years ago that this would be one of the symptoms of the climate change if we didn't stop polluting the atmosphere. But they said it would happen in about 40 years. It's happening 10 years earlier than they predicted. And guess what? We haven't stopped polluting, poisoning the atmosphere. So it's getting worse. And they're warning us that it will get to a certain stage where it becomes unstoppable and catastrophic. So I hope you guys will learn how to swim. No, I see the reason you asked me whether I know how to swim before we came on. But I'll still take you up on that. Merci. Well, we have joining us Mr. Joe Femi-Daguru, founder of Lagos Forum. And now say good morning and welcome to you, Joe Femi-Daguru. And leave a message to take it from there. Femi-Daguru, thank you so much for joining us, unfortunately. We'll move on back to Desmond. Desmond, can you quickly tell us, I mean, if you look at our current reality, it's a good thing that you've asked if we can swim or not. We're talking about the issue of flooding. It has happened. There seem to be a lot of discrepancy with what's causing the flooding. We know that over time we have experienced flooding in Nigeria. But never think that we have seen, just like what's happening in other parts, Lokoja and neighboring parts, and gradually is trickling down. We also hear some reports on the streets, yet towards Saturday, in terms of the rising level of the Tot-Menland Bridge, talking about the water there increasing. So the question is, what exactly is going on? Is climate change also responsible for the flooding that we're faced with right now in Nigeria? Very good question. There's always been a bit of flooding. And in one or two years, you know, every once in a while you'll have quite a lot of extra flooding. This is a natural cycle. And again, it's driven by heat because over a period of time, three, four, maybe five years, the earth goes a little bit closer to the sun and it gets a bit warmer. And you see, it's the most basic of science. You know, you learn it in your kitchen. You apply heat to water, the water evaporates. Apply more heat, more evaporation. But what is happening now is because of our poisoning and desecrating the wonderful miraculous structure of our atmosphere. So this earth is the only one that can support life. So we've been messing around with the atmosphere, pouring millions of tons of this toxic element into the atmosphere that is causing the extra heat. So that extra heat is evaporating more water. So what's happening is that the rains are falling with more vigor. That is, in a short period of time, it's been recorded that a rain that might fall over a period of two months can fall in one day. And it's overwhelming all the natural systems. And it's now beginning to overwhelm even some of the systems that we have put in place, like, you know, heavy drainages and even dams and so on. Because these systems can only contain a certain amount of this rain. And this is why. This is why the scientists, including the International Panel for Climate Change that is under the United Nations, are warning us very, very strongly and sternly that we must stop the pollution. Look, the flooding that's been happening in Nigeria is all over the place. But it's not just the flooding. We're having drought as well. The desert is moving in at an unprecedented rate. Lake Chad, which supports tens of millions of people in the past, has shrunk to about 10 percent, 15 percent of its original capacity. And this is happening not just in Nigeria. It's happening from New Orleans. It's happening even in Europe. Can you imagine that in the UK, they had a high temperature, 40.3 degrees, that Lagos. Lagos has never, ever reached 40.3. The hottest Lagos has ever been is 40.1. And this is unprecedented in the history of recording weather measurements. It is something that is actually the biggest crisis facing humanity. And these are not my words. These are the words of the Secretary General of the United Nations. He said that mankind is waging war against nature. And this is suicidal because nature always fights back. And that's exactly what's happening now. Nature is giving us back what we have been giving her. And we'd better take a lesson from that. That's what Marjorie told me. That's, I mean, it should send shivers down anyone's spine or give anyone the chills when you put it that way. I mean, when Amina, Madame Amina Mohamed was a minister of environment in Nigeria, she really brought this home, you know, she really brought this home. She's left, gone to the UN. Are you satisfied with the federal government's, you know, handling of the climate situation? Is it fighting desert encroachment like you talked about, or the results of climate change? And you're trying to ensure that we have a greener Nigeria because Amina did a lot when she was here. Have you been satisfied with the efforts of the government so far? We see the Vice President hopping on the plane going to the United States, you know, to pursue what he calls energy transition. Do you see, do you sense a political will to fight, you know, to support the climate activities in Nigeria? Very, very pertinent question, but it's interesting that you should mention Amina because I was given a lecture in Abuja and she opened up the floor and she started with this. And you and I, I don't know, she said mankind is waging war against nature. But I assure you that if women had been in a better position of authority, this would not have happened. Hey, all of the men in the room, we were like, well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, yeah, you know, maybe the fact that the female gender with deeper compassion and care, especially for her children, has not been, you know, considered in a lot of the decision making is possible that this is one of the reasons. But the reality is, though, no, we're not doing enough in Nigeria, in our government in Nigeria are definitely not doing enough, but they're not alone. Governments all over Africa are not doing enough. In fact, governments globally are not doing enough. And you're dealing with a problem that has been classified as the biggest problem humanity has ever faced and classified by people who have all the knowledge, you know, Secretary General of the UN, he can pick up the phone and say, hey, what was the average rainfall in Lagos in 1995? Boom. He gets the answer like that. He can say, OK, show me a picture of the Sahara Desert in Yobes state 40 years ago and 40 hours ago. Boom. He has it. And based on all this information that he can get is making these statements that we need to do far more. And one of the major things we are not doing is decarbonizing. We can't keep on poisoning the atmosphere the way they are. Look, if I bring a generator into your studio, will you guys stay there? Of course not. You won't because what comes out of that generator is toxic. And it's not just toxic poisons to mammalian life. It is toxic to the wonderful miracle of creation. So in Nigeria, we need to do a lot more. We have tried and they have been instances when they have been some very overt moves like the green wall a couple of decades ago. We were supposed to be planting trees to stop the desert from moving. Billions of Naira was deployed to that. And instead of planting trees, a lot of the people handling the funds, planted mansions and the trees weren't planted. And the desert just moved on relentlessly. And that's one of the major drivers of insecurity in the land. I've been up to Yobes state in those days. The young men there, they were happy. They were just feeding their flocks on the pastures there and so on. Now those pastures, they've turned to sand and the guys, you know, they're kind of fodder. So they're very, very easily pushed into this warped ideology of peace beyond to you. And then we blow the two of ourselves up. They wouldn't be doing that kind of madness if they were able to do what their fathers and forefathers before them had been able to do, which is just enjoy the pastures with their flocks of cows and so on. You know, and that's one of the major causes of one of the effects of this desertification problem. But also the flooding, because you're driving people out of their livelihoods, apart from giving them terrible, terrible tragedies. I mean, imagine waking up one morning and then the water is just rising in your house. And then, God forbid, you see one of your children carted away or your whole family lost. You know, this type of tragedies must be avoided by the government. You know, maybe we need to remind ourselves of the job description. It, you know, the government are the civil servants. So, yeah, yeah, if you want to be in government, then it means you want to serve us civilians. Yes, that's what it's all about. And the only kind of really good leader anyway, from time immemorial, has been classified as what they call the servant leader. And it makes a lot of sense because, again, we come back to the law of action and reaction. My dear brother, I'm holding up here now something. Hope you can see it. It's a palm kernel. It's a palm. Now, if I release this kernel, it drops into my hand, right? Why does it drop? It has to obey the law of action and reaction. OK, now, whatsoever you so because I've planted this kernel in my farm in Lekhi, Lufasi Park, and I've planted this coconut. Guess what? I've never reaped a coconut from the palm tree, the kernel palm tree. So law of action and reaction, whatsoever you so you reap. If you're in a leadership position, then your decisions will affect millions of people. So you're showing the effect of your decision into the lives of millions of people, and you will surely repeat. This is not me speaking. This is scripture. It's there in the Holy Bible. It's there in the Holy Quran. It's there in the Bhagavad Gita. It's there in every scripture called worthy to be called scripture. This is scripture. So if you if you believe scripture and you believe God, then you better do the right thing and sow a good seed and stop doing nonsense. We'll come to that in a second. Yeah, we'll come to that in a second. I'm told we have Joe Femi-Dagon role on the line. All right, Joe Femi-Dagon role. Can you hear us? We have to go back to Desmond right here with us. Let's talk about. Sorry about. Unfortunately, but maybe I should, you know, push this question to you. However, the question is about what happens with all of this. You have talked about how humans have contributed to damaging, you know, the world, continuous human activities over time has contributed. And we can't even quantify all of that. But let's get back to, you know, the world as it is. Africa is a continent and the West. If you look at the level of contribution, it's reported. And Niger's part of this, two to three percent of carbon emission is what we actually emit, you know, to the globe. And I remember the, you know, a certain agreement. As soon as I remember that, I'd bring it up to you. Now, if Africa is not contributing this amount of, you know, emission to the environment or to the globe, then why should we be part of all of that protocol? This is actually a huge stumbling block question in the whole negotiation for a cleaner planet. And it's a difficult one because you're absolutely right. We are not the ones in Africa, in Nigeria, that started the whole industrial revolution that was responsible for the terrible carbonization, overcarbonization, the desecration of the miracle of creation. Definitely, we were not the ones. But we have benefited greatly from the industrial revolution. You know, part of that benefit is our ability to just be communicating like this now, telephonically, you know, and definitely we are beginning to contribute more and more. And with the very, very rapid rise of the Nigerian population and the rise of industrialization within our country, we shall be contributing more. But there is a strong argument that, OK, we didn't cause this. And we are also one of the most vulnerable areas. Nigeria and Lagos and some of our other states, as you can see, are very, very vulnerable to the effects. So there's a strong argument that we should be given enough funding from the industrialized so-called developed world. And I say so-called developed because it is not really development. If you're creating a temporary situation that brings maybe a lot of joy and comfort to people, but over the long run, it actually destroys the environment. And remember, the environment is our life support system. OK, if you don't have a healthy earth, you cannot have healthy people. If you wreck the right support system, it's obvious what happens. So there is negotiation going on now. And there are a lot of forces. One of them is King Charles of the U.K., the Secretary General of the United Nations and several other very, very significant voices are saying that, yes, vulnerable countries like some of the island states and also Africa and a few other places should be given funding. We should be having funding that will help us to adapt because we need to adapt. Like all this flooding we've been having up country. You know, there's a lot of adaptation processes that need to be done, dredging of those rivers and planting massive amounts of trees and so on. In Lagos, we need to adapt our coastline. In fact, I can assure you that if the places like the Atlantic City have not been built, your studio would be underwater right now. So we adapted and the adaptation needs to continue. So there's money that will be made readily available. And that's what we have to really discuss at this coming conference. There's a conference coming up, the COP 27 in Egypt in a few weeks time. And it's at this conference we need to discuss. But in order for our discussion to carry weight, we need to come together. We need to come together with a unified voice as brothers and sisters of the subcontinent, that we are now asking for this funding so that we can adapt and also we can mitigate. But we do have a very effective bargaining card and that is our territory, especially this tropical territory is the home of the tropical rainforest and the tropical mangrove, which, oh, by the way, we are destroying rapidly. Nigeria has decimated our forest. We only have about five percent of the natural forest remaining when we should be having at least 30 percent, but it can be regenerated. All right, so we can come together and demand for that money to adapt and to regenerate those carbon sinks. But quickly, I'd like to share your thoughts on this. Still talking about the disparity, some people would describe it as an injustice. I understand what you mean by saying, yes, we're benefiting from all that's been going on with the developed countries, but let's even look at it. If you say countries come together to agree as regards a target, there's a target for a mission, what each country should be a meeting or how much we should be a meeting, you know, to the to the climate or to the atmosphere. Several countries have not been able to co-auto protocol up until now. You have countries like the United States, Canada, amongst others that have not agreed to this. Do you think that there's any space for global prosperity in the fight for climate change and adaptation? You have nipped the nail right on the head. And you see, we, we humanity, we've reached a very interesting unprecedented time in our evolution, where we are now being called upon, demanded of us that we need to evolve. OK, just because we've had the spirit of witty invention to create this wonderful creations, technology and so on. We have not evolved enough in our characters to use these things responsibly. How could we have continued burning this fossil fuel for the last 100 years, especially since the last 40 years when we've been warned, stop this. You're wrecking your life support system. It's what your children too will need to rely upon. If you don't want to drive millions and hundreds of millions of people into the eternally displaced camps and yet and yet we have not evolved enough to be able to do that. Again, we take ourselves back to scripture. It is simple knowledge in scripture, the one I'm more familiar with. And it's reflected also in the Holy Quran and other scriptures. The one I'm a bit more familiar with is the Holy Bible, which says we're here to replenish the earth that we should be here to care for the earth. This is scriptural injunction and we can still go and praise the Lord who tells us, look after the earth. Can you imagine your father gives you the most wonderful, beautiful mansion and says, this is for you and your children. All you have to do is look after it. And then you say, thank you, daddy. I love you, daddy. I praise you, daddy. And you start to destroy the very mansion that he's giving you and he's going to be happy. He will not. And so what's happening is that nature, nature is hitting us back. Whatever we've been giving her, like the example of the two fruits, you give nature something, she gives it back to you. She's bound by that. She doesn't know grace, even though grace operates and we thank God for the grace. But believe you, me, the grace cannot be effective if there is not a genuine repentance, not just with the mouth, but with your deeds and activities for those things that you might have done that would have brought you into a contrary relationship with the scriptural injunction. So humanity is time to change. Interesting, very, very interesting. genuine love for our creator and love our neighbors. Very interesting. We love our children and we're destroying their life support system. Change, change, change. Renew our minds. Very interesting indeed. Yes, very interesting indeed, Mr. Maja Kodomi. I'm told we have Joe Femidagaro finally able to join the conversation. Mr. Femidagaro, can you hear us, please? Yes. All right. Thank you very much for your time. I'll pose this question to you and afterwards I would like Mr. Maja Kodomi to also respond to this question and please make it very brief. As the 2023 presidential conversation heats up, some candidates have had the opportunity to comment on the issue of climate change. One particular presidential candidate who happens to be of the Labour Party said that he was not aware or he doesn't see climate change as a priority because there are things to tackle. Like insecurity and also, you know, the economy that's putting money in the pockets of people and food on the table of Nigerians, those are more important than climate change. The presidential candidate of the All Progressives Congress, Bola Metulbo, also asked about climate change and he used the analogy of the church rat and the communion and he said, you know what, you can't, you know, see a church rat, blame a church rat, rather who is hungry for eating the holy communion that is in the church. You know, some people have, you know, taken that another way. But I think what this basically means is that African countries not jumping on the climate change train because of the way things are, you know, in the economies. So what are your thoughts on what these candidates have said and the importance of climate change in determining, you know, in determining who Nigeria's next president should be? And that's me, that's where I can put it. So any word that people in any country are into giving back to nature and to affecting our environment was not desired goods of the people of this country. Because what I, you know, we are seeing what is happening. Maybe some of these people feel they are safer wherever they stay and it's only for the poor. But it is not because look at what is happening in Bajesa. Look at what is happening in Ananda, wherever, maybe. Even in Asia, in some part of Asia, we cannot run away from the fact. Let us not be made, let us not be put into all this plastic. We see what is happening all over the world. We cannot deny the fact that this will happen in Nigeria as well. So now, if anyone is saying anything contrary, the person is naive or does not know anything about nature. You know, you see, some time ago in Lagos here, there are a lot of no-fashionable plants, plants, no flowers and a lot of roots all over Lagos. Apart from the aesthetic value of it in nature, it was beautifying the city. But look at what is happening, look at what we have right now. Look at what is going on. We have to educate the people. When you cut all these trees and don't plant, there will be consequences. When you drive the water at the lagoon and you see it wherever, there will be consequences. You see what's happening in some part of Lake? So let us not listen to these people, let us ask them questions. And if you don't know what to say, it is better to keep quiet and keep silent than saying something as if we don't belong to the world. This is a common thing. Look at what the election is going on in Brazil right now. The people, the Amazons, we are talking about a great issue. You cannot come and tell the Nigerians that it is putting food on the table, putting food on the table. When the whole food that will come to the table has been washed away, the farmers are crying, where do you get the food? So now, that is what I'm saying. It's naive to say putting the food on the table and so on. No, it cannot be. People have to work and have the reward for their labor. But now they cannot get the reward for their labor. And they are suffering. Not only that, there will be a lot of diseases and sicknesses. You know, but then we have this ecological fund. If someone is talking against these environmental issues, that means the person does not even know what this ecological fund is for. What are we using this ecological fund for? Who is accounting for this? Because of time, let's... We have to keep to ask them questions. If you cannot answer these questions, they don't deserve a vote. All right, all right. The interesting points you've made, if you can't answer these questions, they don't deserve a vote. Finally from you, Mr. Magikotumi, the climate, the environment, green energy and of course, the presidential elections. You've listened to two of these candidates, one who says security, the economy and things like that are more important for now. Because you can't tell agents to protect the environment if they can't be secure, they can't eat. And one who says, oh, the West must fund anything, climate action from Nigeria. You can't tell us as church rats not to eat the bread in the church. So your thoughts on this? Yes, my brother on the other line, he got it, he hit the nail on the head, you know? And there's hope when you have people like that, with that kind of consciousness and attitude, there is hope. And we need to drive this message home to the people. We're dealing with our life support system. And any body that's going to come to be your leader, he better be aware of the various things that are possibly going to destroy your very life support system. We need to insist, we need to insist that the candidates get very, very deeply into their consciousness. The reality of what we need to do to protect our environment. And one of the major things that we can do and should do and must do is put the green back into Nigeria. There's a reason why our flag is green, white and green. We need to plant trees, trees and more trees. They are the givers of our most important commodity, oxygen for God's sake. And we need to protect our wetlands, care for nature. Look, if we love nature, nature can love us back. If we fight nature, she hasn't started to hit us here too. So we, the electorate, we now need to insist that the candidates come up with very good sound policies for protecting the environment, for restoring the environment. And then we need to all come together. Because believe you me, nature is not identifying what party you are. It's not identifying what ethnic group or religion you come from. You're human beings, you're doing this to me. Boom, I'm going to do it back. If we do it good to nature, she give us the good back. So the silver lining on this very, very dark cloud, not just for Nigeria, not just for Africans, but for we as humanity is we must come together with a change in our attitudes, express a genuine love for our creator. A genuine reason for worshipping our creator. And obviously a genuine love for ourselves and our neighbors, who are our children. Yeah, we have to close the home at this point and say goodbye to our guests. Joe Fermi-Dagon Rose, the founder of Legos Forum. Thank you very much for your time. And of course, Mr. Despot Magico Dumi, who is the founder of Lufasi Park and environmental activists. Thank you so much for your time, sir. All right. All right. Basically, important conversation to have. We have so much to say, but so very little time. But I think the justice to the topic, we have to come back to these two gentlemen at some point in time. Definitely. We take a breakdown on what we return. Hopefully we have a second conversation. Please do with us.