 I didn't really want to become a cover artist. For some reason in my head, if I had put this song out, that's what I was going to be known for. I didn't really kind of put two and two together that, oh, you can use this to direct people to your Spotify page and then just do whatever you want to do after that. But I just don't know if I had the infrastructure and the mental capacity to actually sustain that in meaningful ways. The hindsight of me back then versus now. I think that sent me down a spiral of trying to figure out how to recapture that moment without really knowing who I was as an artist and like the voice that I was bringing to just the world in general. It was just like people just connect when people are being themselves, when they feel authentic, when they feel like they can relate to you. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm grateful that that viral moment didn't lead to anything else because I just don't think I was in a place where I'm like, oh, this is who I am. This is who I want to present myself as to the world. What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brandon Sean. And I'm Corey. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube, Apple Spotify, wherever you stream your podcasts here at the intersection of creativity and currency. And today we are heavy on the creativity. We know, we love to bring on artists. You know, anybody who's going a unique path, we got an independent artist, Jalen O'Shaughn. What's up, sir? What's good? What's good? Appreciate y'all having me. Welcome back to LA. Appreciate you hopping on, man. Like you popping. You know, I know you're not where you want to be in your career, but you know, you hit that, that over one million listeners, monthly listeners, mark. That's a couple. That's not where I want to be. I might be good. I don't know. I don't, I don't get that. I'm good. You're right. You know what I mean? You're right. But you've had multiple moments, like we just talked about, like of popping and not fully realizing that and then having a little pop. And I definitely want to get some of your insight from that journey. But before we even get into that, like at what point did you start pursuing your music career seriously? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously? Cause I, so I've always been in music, like grew up singing in church. Like I used to joke around that my grandma used to like have me in funny little suits, like on Easter singing. Like I believe the children of our future, like, you know what I'm saying? That sounds a great song, but I didn't know what it was back then. But and then I kind of fell in love with poetry, like around middle school. I can see that. And like my first two, like CDs that I remember really impacting me was Kanye's College Dropout and One Republic's Dreaming Out Loud. And I feel like that kind of helped develop my sound kind of even up to now. But probably when I was in college, I put out a little like, what's it called? I don't know. It's just like a little demo that I shopped to my friends. I just wrote like a little single. And my friends are like, yo, this is crazy. I listen back and I'm like, this was not crazy. But like then they was like, yo, this is fire. It was a lot of love. And I think that kind of gave me the blind confidence to keep pursuing it. I think that's when it really like started going. Gotcha. Gotcha. All you need was a little bit of gas. All you need is a few friends who can like, it could go really wrong for some people. But like for me, it steered me the right way because it was like, all right, cool. Yeah. You can do this. It was like freshman year of college, junior year. I don't remember. It's kind of a blur. I want to say like it's had to be around sophomore or junior because I released two projects in college. Neither one of them on streaming platforms no more. Why not? They were trash. They weren't good. I was experimenting. Actually, I just started a little community thing because people hit me for those songs sometimes. And I said, hey, if you join my community, I'll put it on. Some people are kind of like, you know what I'm saying, you know. So yeah, that was like probably junior, senior year. And so yeah. So did you leave college at any point and get into like the regular workspace or were you able to figure it out? Like be like full time. Yeah. So I had a unique college situation because I kind of got paid to go to school because I got a full, I got a full ride scholarship. Okay. I went to college, Texas State University. So that was, I was a thing called a Terry Scholar, which is pretty dope. And so yeah, but it's just funny because I have my own views about college now. But I think because I had that scholarship and it kind of gave me a stipend, it gave me just the flexibility to like, like I didn't have to work a job in college, basically. Like I was able to focus on school network, experiment, do music, like meet people without kind of the stress of feeling like, oh yeah, you are one of those guys. It's going around free. Yeah, but you know what? You don't, you didn't realize it. Like I don't think I realized the opportunity I had, but it did feel free. And my mom always was just like, yeah, you got your whole life to work a job. Like she always kind of pushed me to chase my dreams, like from early on. And I really like appreciate that she embedded that in me because it was just like, yeah, it's true. Like some people, they literally start working at like 10 years old and they, you know, that's all they know. You know, they almost don't know what to do if they not work with somebody else. So I think that kind of birthed like an entrepreneurship like experience out of me. So, yeah. So you talked about that was when you started to take it seriously. When was the first time you started seeing, I guess, real success from it? Oh, money. No, not good. It doesn't have to be money. Let's say, let's say, when did you feel like you had a significant fan base? I don't know, man, because I felt there was two metrics. So when I was in college and I was putting out music, it was dope because it was very local. And I was a pretty like, I'm naturally extroverted. Like I had a strong community in college and I had did like my own self-funded show at a spot. And I remember my bro, Devontae, we good friends. Like I remember he thought I was just like, he didn't really know. He was like a football type dude. He was like, this dude kind of lame. Like he, you know, he got, you know, whatever. And I told him to pull up to the show and still to this day, he'd be like, bro, so many people at that show. And I think that was a moment for him to be like, who is this dude? You know what I'm saying? He kind of eating. Granted, my music was not that good back then, but it was just the fact that I had like community that really supported me as a person and what I did. And I think that was a moment where I was like, oh, like this is a win. And I remember that was kind of back in the days where like Spotify had the little what's the less than sign? Like if you have less than a thousand street, I know it was gone. Oh, no, it's probably still there. It's probably still there. But like. He's right there in a minute. Ah, you know, we were grateful. But yeah, I remember like looking at Spotify and seeing my songs and just like waiting for it to hit the thousand mark. And like me and my bro Austin, we always just kind of laugh like, oh, you remember when you used to wait like two months to see it cross? So like I would be them and all my people just like, like those were moments of when I look back and I was like, I think those were all still wins. Because it was kind of like building me up. And I don't even think I even had a, I don't even think I had a mindset of, oh, I could do this and really make money on it. It was just like, I love to do this. Let me figure out how to take the money that I'm getting and put it back and connect with people in this way and build it. And so like in hindsight, like I look at those moments and I'm like, man, that was successful and not even what we're doing is successful. I don't know. This is certain like milestones that you cross as an artist. And I think one big milestone was like after I kind of have built my local community was like, oh, how do I connect with people who I don't know? I think that was a big milestone when I would have somebody random DM me and be like, oh, are you jailing? And I'd be like, oh, yo, like, are we related? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, my mom was so, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, I think those are milestones and we just kind of continue to progress the reach and like appreciate the journey. Like I'm about to do a supporting tour for a really dope artist named Hojin. And I remember like years ago, I was trying to figure out, OK, how do I get on tour support? Like I would see all these artists who I was like, I can do that. Like how they get on. And, you know, most of the time it was either labels or relationships. And we just kind of secured our first. It's not the first, it's probably the second. But the second, like big supporting right for this. And, you know, to me, that's successful. That's like, oh, we we build and we grow and we head in the right direction. So yeah, yeah, I agree, man. I think I think that's it makes it more realistic to try to calculate success in that way, right? Because there are things that, you know, like we kind of talk about off camera. You kind of have to put yourself through where, you know, they're just learning moments, you know? And so it's like, I'm not that's why when you ask like, is it money? It's like, no, you know, not necessarily. But I get that it's such a hard thing, like frame. Yeah, I mean, I will say like. Man, I was talking about this to my manager and I'm like, man, I am blessed to be at a place where like. Oh, I have enough monthly income coming in to where I can pay my people. You know what I'm saying? Like, because it's hard, like early on you asking for favors. And like, I'm a pretty like. What's the word I'm trying to say? Like, I'm a pretty aggressive isn't the word. Ambitious, that's what I'm looking for. I'm a pretty ambitious dude. So I'm like, you know, when I was starting, this might have been before we connected, I was doing a thing called rough drafts where I was trying to drop a song every week with the visual. And the first time I did it, I did it from like. Valentine's Day, this might have been 2019. All the way to like August and it was just homies. Like, I ain't had no big budget. I wasn't I was out of school. I wouldn't get paid by the school back then. So it was kind of like, I look back at that and people were just really willing to rock with me because they liked me. And they were like, oh, we see the vision. We see that you work hard. So I'm grateful to be at a place where I'm like, hey, we still want to go just as hard, but at least I can pay you a little more. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's a win to me. And then, you know, just trying to scale it from there. So before we get to any, like some of the bigger moments where the numbers start to really take off, multiple times you reference like community, people liking you, people willing to support, right? These videos, people pulling up to the show, surprising your homie. Like, how is all this happening? Do you have a method? I know you said you naturally extroverted, right? But do you have like an approach that you feel like is an intentional and when it comes to building community or building network? I'm from the South, bro. So, I mean, I mean, you all know this is just a different energy. Like even being out in LA, it's like, oh, we meet people. And I don't know, like I just know people aren't going to give you handouts early on. Like I remember there was this process in my career where I was like kind of shy about my music. Like I almost felt like I wasn't deserving to be in certain rooms. And I would go around these, you know, these rooms where maybe there's all these artists that are like that I look up to or I know they kind of got some clout. But I wouldn't want to go into the room and be like, oh, yo, I do music because we all know how that convo goes. Like usually they're like, oh, cool. You know what I'm saying? And they just let you, you know what I'm saying? All right, I admit, like maybe I'll check out your stuff. But I did photography. And so what was cool was like it kind of allowed me to serve people in a way like, and I was a dope photographer. And so I would go in the rooms and be like, yo, let me do some photos for you or like whatever, really not even to get in and out of it just because I like doing photography. And then eventually they would, you know, be like, oh, you do music. Oh, this kind of hard. Oh, like whoop the whoop. And a natural friendship was built that wasn't necessarily built off of just music. It was built off of something else. And so I think also it was kind of providing something that was naturally shareable because kind of how you were saying with events, like people would be like, oh, this is dope. You know, like who did this? And then they would spread your name and you're not asking them to spread your name. It's just the quality of the product that you was giving was dope to them. And so you kind of built a natural name for yourself. And so I think it was kind of the same way for that early on. And I just carried that with me. Like I kind of told y'all one reason I'm in LA and I like LA is because I feel like I don't really have a somebody's going to save the day for me mentality. Somebody's going to take my career to another height. If it happens, it happens cool. But like, I don't know, once I hand it over to somebody else, I'm putting my career in their hands and I just, in past experience, nobody's going to care about what I do more than me. And so along with the answer, but you kind of get what I'm saying. Yeah, I feel that. So social media, that first video, that cover video, specifically that you were referencing earlier. You talking about the TikTok? Yeah. OK, we jump in. Yeah, let's jump in. Let's jump into it. OK, OK. When that took off, what was your mindset at that moment? Yeah, so for context, I did, yeah, for context, I did this Adele cover. You know, Austin, the dude who does the, what if this song was R&B? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was doing those and he was killing it. And I was kind of new to TikTok. I feel like I was an early, late adopter. Like I wasn't in that first, first wave. And I was kind of trying to figure out like, you know, the first like six months or whatever. But I was, I didn't really have a voice in that space. I was just kind of like, oh, I can do this. Like I like making R&B versions of stuff. So I made this Adele cover and it took off. And it actually took off after two other videos. It was like this simple, like people were just singing like this one direction line. It was like one line and I just got on my phone and I just sung it and it went stupid viral, like it didn't make sense. People was like, yo, your voice is so buttery. And I'm like, bro, like, OK, I didn't get it and it was going viral. So I was like, all right, well, I got these other two lined up. So let me post this and Adele's easy on me was trending. So I posted like me singing that the regular way and I posted the R&B version. The R&B version went crazy. And I just didn't have, I didn't really know what to do. Ironically, at the same time, I was kind of like studying TikToks. Like I was on YouTube. We were trying to figure out how to make something pop because I had already had friends who were, you know, seeing success from the platform. And just the information that I was getting at the time just really wasn't helpful. Like it was, the biggest thing was like consistency, but it didn't really have, there was no really instructions on what to do after you have a viral video as an artist. And I think the person I was watching didn't focus on music specifically. It was just kind of like people who wanted to go viral in any space. Like it was like, oh, focus on your niche and post a lot and post it these times, which the time thing just never, that was just confusing in itself because it just created a lot of anxiety. You know what I'm saying? So it goes viral, kind of an accident. And I didn't really, I didn't really want to become a cover artist because I was so proud of my original music that I, for some reason in my head, if I had put this song out, like that's what I was going to be known for. I didn't really kind of put two and two together that, oh, you can use to direct people to your Spotify page and then just do whatever you want to do after that. And that was kind of right before even Austin had his big song, the Billie Eilish cover. So I didn't really kind of see any blueprint. Like right after that went viral and kind of died off, everybody was going viral and like Son and Moon had hit all these other songs that hit and people were just releasing a song. And then people started saying like, you need to have a song out. You know, like, don't wait. And so I was kind of devastated for a few months because like one day it just snapped and I was looking at me and my team and we were just like, how did we miss this? Like, why didn't we just put the whole song out? The whole song wasn't even done. People that asked me like, yo, are you gonna, you know, are you dropping this song? And I'd be like, yo, new song coming soon. They'd be like, yo, is it easy on me? I'd be like, nah, of course not. Like that's a deal song, go listen to her. Like, yeah, but it's just like, it was just a different time. And so I think one of my biggest takeaways though from that, like it's a little bittersweet, but I'm really grateful because there's a lot of stories of people who like pop. I mean, you know how it is now, like you can be on top today and forgot about tomorrow. And I just feel like if I, the benefit is a lot of those people could have got directed to my music directly, but I just don't know if I have the infrastructure and the mental capacity to like actually sustain that in meaningful ways. And so I'm kind of, I think one of my biggest, I don't know, one of the things we celebrate often on my team is that I've been able to grow organically and I don't have like a viral song yet. I don't have like what I would consider a breakout song. Like I feel like every artist who's big, like people who I'm inspired by like the Kalees or even like Pink Sweats, like people who I kind of see myself kind of going in their lane, they usually have one song that really catapults them and then they're able to just kind of sustain off of that. Let's talk about the fact that most artists fail to understand that it doesn't take forever to monetize your audience. We had an artist literally begin to take off and make $20,000 from his brand new audience in the same month. But how is that possible? It's because we're in a new era, baby. Yes, you wanna continue to build a relationship over time, but the first time you make money from your audience can happen today if you understand the new age music marketing funnel for artists. So if you wanna hear about this approach and how you can apply it to yourself, I made a completely free video to watch at www.nolabelsnecessary.com slash monetize. You gotta make sure you put the www or if you're on YouTube, you can find the link in the description and check out how we help monetize artists for completely free. I promise it'll completely change how you see things. What would you consider a song going viral, being a breakout song? Like how many streams is a breakout song? I don't know. I mean, you think about like location by Khalid. You think about something that captures culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something that's just like, it's everywhere. Like, you know, strawberries and wine isn't like... Yeah, nah, sleep on. Yeah, it's nothing to sleep on, but that song came out like what, 2020? And we kind of put that out just like, oh cool, like it's a year anniversary, we should do this. Like I just, it's growing. I wouldn't say that's even a breakout song. I think that's a song that like people that fall in love with, but there's still so many people who don't know it. I think when they hear it, they're like, oh, I like this song and they keep streaming it. But I mean them songs that really like, you know, go. So, okay. So it sounds like you start going viral off of a cover. You were afraid of being a cover artist, but now you feel like you could have flipped it. And so you feel, because you know, this is a constant fear. A lot of artists don't want to be a cover artist. You know, they want to escape that box. But now that you kind of see a way where, hey, you actually can do covers and break out of that. Yeah, you can do whatever you want to do. I just, I had a very, me and my team had a very limited, I think, we just weren't aware. We didn't know, we were trying to figure out TikTok. We didn't understand virality. And then like that stuff happens and then it's gone. Then we kind of talked about too, I think one thing about me in that moment, I remember being kind of scared to post again when I was going viral, because I thought it was going to mess up the engagement I was getting. I was like, well, this video is going crazy. Every day I'm getting, you know, all these followers, if I post again, like, is that going to stop? You know, I just, it was just kind of like stuff like that, like didn't know. And really didn't have a, like I said, I was on YouTube but didn't have no one who could speak direct to me. And I think a lot of people didn't know too. Like, I didn't know y'all back then too. See, I probably knew, but, you know, so. But I think too, like, and I'll talk about this cause I think this is kind of a hindsight of me back then versus now. I think that sent me down a spiral of like, trying to figure out how to recapture that moment without really knowing who I was as an artist and like the voice that I was bringing to just the world in general. Pre-TikTok, I told you I was dropping those videos once a week. They were very polished. It's kind of like what's coming back around now. I didn't even think about that. That was Pre-TikTok. So you're dropping them on YouTube? No, I was dropping on IG. IG, what's the- Which was weird because we did it for like, we did it probably like three years straight. And the first time it was before IGTV. And so engagement was crazy. Like I feel like that was kind of my first wave of really, like I remember we dropped those and kind of towards the tail end, I walked in Kroger one time, Indicator, oh, maybe it's Stone Mountain. And this dude, I'm grabbing something. I'm grabbing just like some chips or something. This dude like, yo, you jailing the Sean? And I was like, yo, me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's me. Like it was just kind of one of those moments. Like, oh, this is what reach can feel like. But it was Pre-TikTok. It was just kind of us being consistent. And I actually got that idea a lot from Yano Utobi, the wig we is. So it's funny because I'm from Houston. I used to open up. He used to do these showcases called The Dope Art Show. And I would open up on like one of the shows. I was kind of trash back then. So I'm grateful that he let me open up. And so I kind of knew him early on before he blew up. And then he started posting his Get Twisted Sundays. I remember when it was on Facebook before they even like got to IG. He just stayed consistent for like years, but it was that same kind of freestyle. Kind of like what LaRussell's doing. And then it just blew up. So like that kind of motivated me before all this micro content to kind of follow the same path and figure out, okay, how can I do that my own way? I love creating original songs. I knew that people were more inclined to listen to a one minute song than like a three minute song. So I was like, well, let me just throw out all these ideas and then let the people rock with me. Just, you know, pick the songs. It kind of helped me even like put out an album because at that time I didn't want to waste all this time putting on an album or working on an album just to put it out for it to get like three plays because nobody knows who you are. So it kind of brought people on a journey with me. I say all that to say, it's like, I'm coming out of that space to all of a sudden, like people being like, yo, put up your phone and just be yourself. And I'm like, what does that mean? You know what I mean? And I think naturally, I love stuff like business. I love stuff like, I don't know, just conversations. I'm not really a big dancer. So all this stuff that I saw that other people naturally would do, I was like, oh, this feels not unique to me. And then you got to kind of do that in this raw format where it almost feels a little like, it feels very vulnerable. And I didn't like none of that. So I was like, ah, I'm good. I'm gonna just kind of keep doing me. But when that viral moment happened, it made me say, oh, shoot, I got to lean into this. But I still had all these lingering questions like, well, what do I, I'm not gonna sit on TikTok and talk about business. Like that's cool, but that's not what I wanted to, I assigned how I wanted to present myself. I'm not gonna be out here dancing. And so I just began kind of like emulating a bunch of people and it was just flop after flop after flop. And it wasn't just the fact that like, if it wasn't the fact that it wasn't connecting, but I think at hindsight, it was just like, people just connect when people are being themselves, when they feel authentic, when they feel like they can relate to you. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm grateful that that viral moment didn't lead to anything else because I just don't think I was in a place where I'm like, oh, this is who I am. This is who I wanna present myself as to the world. And so I'm in a whole different place now. And I think that's what makes my career so exciting right now because I feel like I could get in front of an audience. I feel like I could get in front of a, in front of my community and add value to their lives more than just, oh, here's some cool songs with cool visuals. And I feel like that's what really makes artists like have a long career. So how would you figure out who you are? I think just life. That's a big question. You're always figuring out who you are, but like, I think one, except in who you're not, I think that was a big journey, like, like big ups to people like Nick D. I got a funny story about Nick D. I don't know if you watch this, but like, I don't know what I got to say. Oh, he done cheesed this day. Yeah, you wanna be sure? I'm just long with it, so I don't want you to have a two hour long podcast. If he ever sees this, I'd be interested to get his take. So, oh, yes. Anyway, long story short. So I, one of the things that I, what am I trying to say? Okay, look, so I come from, I have a lot of friends in the, y'all know the Christian Hip Hop Space? Got a lot of friends in that space. But I knew I'm not a rapper and I also didn't fully wanna be in that space, but I have friends there. And I felt like I didn't wanna collaborate too early on with a lot of my friends who did music because I didn't wanna get, like I did just stories of people I have friends who are influencer and stuff who can sometimes get stuck because of like certain collaborations and things like that. So I was just trying to figure myself out. So me and Nick, he kind of has some background in that space too. We're kind of, we were connected through that. And at the same time, I wasn't really used to doing like features with people because just because of how I like worked, it was just me and my boys at, and I'm paying for studio time. So I'm like, all right, cool. Like I never really did like a feature sale or anything like that because in my head, I'm like, I just kind of got other stuff to do. Like I'm not just in the studio, just like, ah, you know what I'm saying? And I'm making bread other ways. And so anyways, he DMed me and he was like, y'all, like we should work on something. This right before Fine Apple. And I didn't really know, I didn't know his music at the time, but we had a mutual friend. And I literally was like, yo, like, cool, let's do it. I'm about to like finish these rough, like the drafts, the one minute songs. Like I was in kind of that mode. And I was like, when I'm done, let's like, let's figure it out. Because he was cool people even over DM. And then maybe like a few months pass and Fine Apple takes off. And I think I hit them. And it wasn't even like awesome, like, yo, let's work. It was more just like, oh, you're cool. But we had a lot in common. Like, he came from like the film space and things like that. And I was like, oh, we just need to kind of connect. But he was gone in. And so it's funny because back then I was just like, oh, like, I probably could have actually been pretty cool with Nick D. Not to say that it won't happen. I think he's a great guy. I think he's killing it in the independent space. But it's just funny, like those moments, just remind me, you never know like, you never know where you're at in somebody's journey. You know what I'm saying? So like, I think that's why going back to your question about meeting people and just being genuine, it's like huge. Like I don't look at that as like a ill or anything. I think it just wasn't the right time or whatever. But I think it's cool to see that I've had a lot of friends who like, like Toby, it's crazy to me that I was opening up from in a room like this. He just spitting freestyles and I'm right next to him. And now he's doing Coachella. You know what I'm saying? It's like, and I don't want nothing from Toby. I don't want nothing from Nick. I don't want nothing from, like I'm happy for everybody who's, you know, where they're supposed to be. But it also is inspiring for me because I'm like, oh, yo, if I saw you when you were doing the Facebook videos and now you're doing Coachella. If anything, if I just bet the bag on myself and I keep working hard and I keep connecting with people, you know, the sky is the limit for me too. So I have no idea what your first question was. But that's my rant. I'm going to go down to Nick Detrell because I knew that was going to go. Yeah, man, I think, bro, just hearing that because I feel like that's when you can kind of tell when an artist is matured to a good point because it takes a lot to be inspired by people you kind of see. You know what I'm saying? I think sometimes artists get discouraged by seeing their friends like blow past them, you know? But I always look at it like, this is proof that it can happen because here's somebody that stood next to you that's now standing somewhere, you know what I'm saying? Maybe where you had a further head or either way is proof that it can happen, you know what I'm saying? And there are some artists who never get that. Like I think some artists take for granted even having those examples because some artists never get those examples. Or the people, and I think what I struggled with with those years was I felt like, oh, I need to just emulate them so that then I can see the success that they have. And I felt like I was just kind of on a journey of like, oh, maybe I should try this or maybe I should try duets or maybe I should. And it never, it's not that it felt disingenuous. It was just like, I think people can just tell when you're not fully being yourself. And I think I had to go through that to really be like, oh no, this is who I am. This is what I like. Oh, it's okay if I don't do that. Oh, it's okay if I do this. And I just feel like people resonate with that. I don't know, you probably can tell like even maybe on some of our first marketing calls probably a lot of my position was like, oh, this is what's working. Oh, how do I, how do you make me more like this person so that we can see that success? And I'm like, nah, like, and obviously I'm coming from a place where I've benefited off of being myself now to where like, I kind of have the streaming proof that kind of also sustained some of these feelings. Cause I get it when you like, you know, sitting at 100,000 monthly listeners, you know, you're constantly looking up at like, oh, how do I get to that million? And when you got a million, you constantly looking up, like how do I get to the three, four million? So it's always kind of this never ending chase, but if I had any advice for like a younger version of myself or like any up and coming artists, it would just be like, find out what being true to you really means and like just go for it and have a good kind of group of people around you who can remind you of who you are who you want to be as you're on your journey. So man, that was something that was settled on. Cause actually speaking of the marketing cause, man, I was talking to Sean about this. You had a moment in the K-pop space a little bit, right? Like, yeah, but we got to talk about that, man. Cause it's not every day, man. You hear a guy from Houston. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm shaking in the K-pop space, man. So talk to us about that. I actually don't know what moment you're talking about, but I will say I have a growing Asian audience and I love it, bro. It's so dope. To me, like, yeah, I want to go to Asia one day just cause it's cool, but like Hojin is Asian American. That's why I'm really excited to be on his tour. Like I look at people like Khalid and like Pink Sweat. So like, I saw this Bruno Mars video the other day. He was an Asian like stadium pack. Like it was just kind of crazy, but I feel like sometimes, especially with, you know, being in our American bubble, we don't realize that there's a whole world out there that can appreciate your music. And so I feel like that was, I open it for me even having different Asian artists and people from around the world start reaching out to me and being like, yo, your music's dope. Like I want to collab and I want to connect. And when we started just looking at the data and seeing where a lot of people were listening to my music, we were like, man, how do we continue to invest and connect with people all over the world? And so that's kind of what we've been doing. And it's been happening organically. Like we, we don't really do too much like, I don't know, like, like super heavy targeting or anything like that. We just try to be genuine in our relationships. And we see if like, there's opportunities to connect. And like, I think what makes my boy, Uzuhan, he was like, he feels like my music resonates really well in those spaces because it's kind of melodic pop. And that sound is really big amongst that community. And so, yeah, I'm happy. I love it. I'm like, hopefully one day I'm doing huge tours in like Asia and worldwide cause I definitely want to be a global artist. And it definitely opened my mind up to like, man, it's just, you know, it's like when you leave United States the first time and you like, oh, y'all like everybody not indicator. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, so, yeah, facts. So are you starting to do, I guess, what am I trying to ask? Cause I feel like man, it's one of those well-kept stickers of the music industry where like a lot of artists pop outside the States. And then they kind of bring it back right. Like you mentioned pink sweats. I mean, I remember seeing artists like even as far back as like a six nine or something. You know what I'm saying? It's almost like you, they build the audience in one place and then hold the perception that they're kind of, that they're moving in the U.S. Or some of them would kind of, I guess maybe even abandon it and focus it all the way on that space. So I guess what I'm trying to ask, man, is like, has seeing how your music impacts that side of the world start to change the way that you even push your music or put your music out? Like are you keeping them at the forefront of the stuff that you do? So I think where I'm at now is, I think we're very intentional. Like when I'm having conversations with my team or with my manager, I'm like, yo, like where are people listening to me at? Let's make sure they're connecting with me more. You know, let's make sure that we're serving them. Yeah, whether that be more music, whether it's content, whether there's ads, whether that's, you know, stuff that we can do, you know, eventually hopefully one day it'll be me actually going to those places. And it's the same way I'm doing it here. Like it's kind of like, oh, what are my top cities? Okay, cool. How do I keep serving them? How do I, you know, I think a big thing about this tour that I'm doing support on is that it's in California and a lot of my audience is also in California. Like, and so actually being able to, you know, shake hands and see people and, you know, give hugs and like put faces to these numbers is something that I'm excited about. And I think something that we try to be intentional about. While being aware that like wherever the music goes, like we're open to it. Like at this point when I drop a song, I won't reason I put out so much music. It's cause I'm like, I, you know, y'all heard the term like it's all assets in one sense. Like from a financial standpoint, but also like you just never know what's going to go. Like you were talking about how strawberries and wine, acoustic is so big. I put that out as kind of like, oh, to the original cause it was the anniversary. I thought it would be cool. I never thought it would be my biggest song. We joke because I didn't necessarily want to be a cover artist and I'm not being a cover artist, but if you went to my page right now, you would just hear a bunch of acoustic records, like as kind of the top like five. And so I'm like, oh, people are gonna think I'm an acoustic artist and I'm like, I don't want to do that either, but it's okay. It's just like, hey, if this is what people like, you know, like, can see you to feed them. Like I would be doing you a disservice if you really love my acoustic songs. And I'm like, ah, no, I'm good. I'm like, nah, I'm making an acoustic song. I enjoy making acoustic songs now. So I just keep putting them out. My show is still gonna be what I wanted it to be. And I throw those elements in there because people love them, but like it's helping people connect with me. It's expanding the reach because even like Spotify's algorithm and the different algorithms like can see like, oh, people really like Jalen's acoustic songs. So now every time I drop an acoustic song, they're like, oh, here's another one. Oh, we already know where they need to go. You know, so it's just a lot of benefits. And ultimately we just, I just want my music to connect with as many people as possible. And then figure out a way to kind of bridge the gap between just numbers on the screen to actual personal interaction. So when you get to the stage that you can do a full blown production, your show, the world is yours, right? What do you see that looking like? Like how does it feel? What's the vibe in the room? What's the crowd on when they show up? How they dressed? What's my audience look like? I don't know. Cause I don't, I think I'm learning my audience. Like I thought, I told you, I felt like I came from kind of like a misfit space where like, I didn't know who, like I didn't know where I really fit in. You know? And I still kind of feel like that sometimes. Like I'm just like, I would be interested when I actually feel like I'm doing a show that has a decent sized crowd where I can kind of get an idea of who suits and know what that looks like. But I just think it's like people who like to have fun. Like I think my show, you saw me in New York kind of bouncing around on stage. Like I think, and I remember you saying like, oh, I didn't think your show was going to be like that. Like I think that's kind of the take back that I want people to have. Like, oh, like I didn't realize your show was going to be disengaging. Like I'm very, everything I do, I try to be intentional about it. So like I, when I see somebody doing a show, I'm like, oh, I like this. Oh, they didn't say their name. Like I don't know who this person is. They killing it, but they haven't said their name once. Oh, like I would, you know, do this. I'm always kind of analyzing. I'm trying to work with my team to figure out, okay, how do we include this in our show? So even with the supporter, I'm like, yo, I want people. Like what are some elements that I can do that are memorable moments for people? Because I mean, you hear new songs all the time, but what's going to make somebody really be like, yo, like who, I was talking to somebody and we were talking about Drake and it was like, oh, Drake's so cool. It was somebody like, I watched the Dominic Fike interview recently. I was like, I don't even know this dude. I'm like, oh, he cool, you know? And I think that's the moments that convert people from like just casual listeners to like, oh, I'm about the ticket to your show. Oh, I'm gonna tell my friends about you because this is element of like, I like you as a person. I really don't know you, but like I really like you as a person. Like you just answer questions and your vibe. Yeah. I think that's what I'm looking forward to. And I think that's the energy I want people to feel at my show is like, yo, like, oh, you cool. And you at his show, so you probably cool too. You know what I'm saying? Like that kind of vibe is, I want to feel genuine. I want to feel like love and then I want to be fun. So when you say creating moments for people to remember, have you actually thought about what you want to do? As on my show? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't want to throw it out. I don't know when it's coming out. Cause you know, what's some shit that somebody else has done and then you're like, oh yeah, I like that people are going to remember that. Maybe you don't apply it to your own show, but you just like, oh yeah, that's dope. Well, the first thing that came to mind was the thing I was going to put on. No, it was a variation of it. So I'm not going to get that sauce away yet. But I don't know. I think people who are just strategic in ways that they engage with crowds. Like, and you got to kind of tailor that to your crowd, but I'm trying to think of some moments. Like I love Billion, John Billion. His live show is crazy, but he's very like intentional of making like fun moments. One of the best performers I've ever seen was Bruno. But it's just kind of he inserts his personality into his show and it just, you just sit there, you like, yo, you cold as singing, but you just like also funny. Like it's just like, I've been hearing Bruno fan off of his shows like in 2011 or something. Oh, was that the 24 karat era? No, that was before that. It was before that? It was him and B.O.B were the only thing that they did. It was that. But then they, I just happened to be on YouTube and see like shows. I just saw all these performances. One of them, he was on a small show, him and one guy just singing. But it was always, he always put his personality, like people were always laughing. He was like singing the Michael Jackson song one point. Like he was, it was just always personally playing with his homies in some shows. You can always get that from him. And that's what I'm excited to do in shows. And that, you know how funny, cause I look back at TikTok and my struggle with it initially, because I can do this easy, but when it came to like being in front of a screen, it just felt like it didn't like trans. Like I kind of almost go into business mode. Like I can just like, you know what I'm saying? When people just switch up and you like talking like an email and it just felt like it was coming off like that. But I'm excited cause in my shows, like I love like, I can, I can say so stupid and people laugh and be like, you know what I'm saying? Like it just feels authentic. It's like, cool. We are humans. We are here. And it's hard sometimes to translate that over. Some people do it really well. I'm working on it. What about the Drake AI moment? What, the song? No. The song was kind of tough. No, the Drake one. The song was kind of tough. I'm talking about the stage, the stage. Yeah. What people thought it was AI to face. I'm going to show it in a few weeks. I haven't seen it. So I'm going to. No, you didn't see the online moment where Drake with younger Drake on the stage. But it's a little boy, right? Or like, it's a real guy. No, whatever. He might be like, well, I don't know how it is. But I'm saying like the fact that he got a nice check. People thought that it was a hologram or something. And then remember, he interacted with it. And then that became something I remember. Yeah, he had a book. Oh yeah. So that's why I'm just saying moments for people to remember. No, that's great. If I had Drake's budget, then of course I would do something like that. I want to get downscale stuff, though, and find creative ways. I don't know. People saying they going broke on tour. So we'll see. We'll see. I can also just be funny. And it could kind of maybe balance it out a little bit. I went to Drake's, was it a scorpion tour? And brought the visual intentionality. He's kind of doing a lot of similar stuff on this tour. It was just crazy. Like how he's doing a paper plane with Virgil. He had that floating Lamborghini. Just like he had the drones. Like when drones were becoming popular and making all these shapes. He was kind of one of the first people I saw do that. But I'm like, oh, you care about the little things. And I think artists that I resonate with, it's like, oh, you thought about this. You're like, you're not just kind of going up there and singing your songs. Like that's cool. People do want to hear your songs. But there's just a lot of opportunity to give people more if you can. And if that's kind of where you at. I know every artist is different. But I think that's going to be the differentiator for me when I do get in front of people. So. Yeah, now I'm mad. As fans, we're judging out, man, 100%. Because like you said, but if I'm paying, especially now, man, ticket prices. Right, you get a ticket master, bro? Give me, make you a man as an artist. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Them bags are over with, bro. $60 to see you jump up and down. And you didn't see it kind of happen at your own TikTok a little bit. So you kind of know going into it like. Actually, that's a good point. I didn't even think about that. Because I just thought about it. If you hadn't seen the Drake thing, we would have just spoiled it for you. And just like that. Yeah, I would have walked up to the show right now, like, bro. Like, what you talking about? But yeah, I didn't seen it. But it's also cool because I feel like he has so much intentionality because I still see TikToks and stuff that I haven't seen on his show. So I'm like, oh, there's still more. Sometimes it can't feel like, oh, you seen it all, but. I feel like artists like him, part of their intentionality is they do different things in different cities. Oh, yeah. I mean, for him, I mean, he could bring out guests too. I mean, he could do it. Bring out guests is like the easy way. Nah, he brought out J. Cole. Yeah. And I was like, can you bring it back? Even production things that don't involve bringing out somebody who might live in that city or something like that, you can still, you know. There's no difference then if you go to Broadway, those people are, you know, they're acting live, right? And there's going to be moments that hit a little different night to night because they're really doing it. Versus those people who act or sing exactly like the record and they don't give you anything extra. You know what I mean? You know that, did you see that one girl? I don't know her name, but she would go viral every night because on one song she would always add like a little freestyle at the end of her song. You could probably find it on the line. That's a perfect example though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she would sing a song and she would always kind of have like a little freestyle at the end. That was cool. I remember going to Toby puts on one of the best shows. I see he's always been very intentional about the show, but he would always incorporate these moments where like if the crowd is giving him energy, he would like, you know, like almost give like kind of a beatbox type drummer thing and like start freestyle and a dance and then it felt like impromptu and organic. Just stuff like that where it could be calculated for the artist. Like, you know what's coming up, but to the audience it feels like, oh man, like they can tell when you try to, you know, serve them by thinking out the box, by really putting on a show, by really trying to be entertaining. So like, I don't know, I just respect artists who do that. And if you don't, that's not your cup of tea that's fine, but like I think that's what really can separate you coming up. And I think that's also what people gravitate to when you do make it. Like they're like, oh, play the songs I love, but throw your personality in there. Like let me see kind of who you are in the midst. So, yeah, yeah. So, what do you aspire to achieve in your career over the next five years? Five years. Five year plan. Yo, you want it like a breakdown? Like a, I'm just curious what your question is. Nah, me and my manager was actually talking about this because I was talking to this guy and he was like, you got to do everything with the end of mind. And I thought that was really good. Like he was just telling me he wakes up every day with intentionality because he knows where he wants to go. Even if it's just for the day, starting with the end of mind. So I sat down with my manager, I was like, hey, where do we want to go? We're getting deal offers. You know, people are reaching out to us. We can stay independent. We can potentially sign what makes sense. And we kind of need to have a clear understanding of that so we know what partner feels right if we did decide to go that route. And so I told myself, I think ideally for me, I would love to have a career that is kind of on the caliber. I got some good friends called the Oh, Hello's. They're like a folk kind of rock band. And they were the first people I toured with like several years ago. And they were doing like big rooms. And I got toured with them through relationship, but they're, they could sell out some pretty big venues still if they decide to go on tour right now, but they're really kind of set because they've had some big songs. They're almost, I wouldn't call them legacy artists, but they had a really, like some really big songs, like even 10 years ago that kind of have still sustained them to now. And they still have a really like loyal fan base. They also caught a wave on Tik Tok, not even like really trying, just, you know, it just turned into something. And so they can, if they wanted to go tour, they wanted to do more, they could, if they wanted to just chill, they can. And they also still can like enjoy their lives. And I think that's kind of what I aspire to be. And so we were kind of looking at people that we want to model ourselves off of. And I think somebody like, you know, the allos, Jeremy Sucker, Pink Sweats are like, and those are people who are kind of more in that hybrid space are like ideal for me because I feel like they're not too big to where their lives are like taking over. Like I love Dominic Fike's music. I'm like, I don't know if I want to be Dominic Fike big or like I love one of Republic and Ryan Teter. I'm like, man, you might be a little too famous, you know what I'm saying? But also if, if for some reason I did get to that point, like I wouldn't mind it, but I think I would probably try to go more of a Khalid route where it's like, Khalid's huge because of his international pool, his world sound, but he still kind of has this like, you really don't know much about Khalid and he not really always touring. Like he's kind of maintained the sustainability of his artist career and business without kind of sacrificing, you know, his life. Like I hope he still gets to hang out with his friends. He just seems like that guy who can invite people over without like paparazzi being everywhere, you know? Yeah. Those things that you just said in terms of your plan going forward, how is that different than how you were thinking about things last year? Last year, who was last year, 2020? I'm trying to think of where I was in life last year. I don't know, man, I think I'm just content. Like I'm like, as an artist, you're always chasing the next big thing. And I'm working on a project and one of the lines I got in there, it's like, I asked God, would I ever get to see all my dreams? He said, son, don't lose your soul. Trying to chase everything. Don't you see all these blessings? Ain't no time like the present, man, that changed my perspective. And it was like, I'm gonna always be ambitious. I'm always gonna be thinking about the next five years because I want, it's a business. I want it to grow. I wanna connect with more people. I wanna expand my reach. But all my friends have told me like the journey is the best part. I know that sounds corny, but even for y'all, y'all know how it is. Y'all can think about when y'all first met and where y'all are at now and the connects and the opportunities y'all have now. And yeah, y'all are probably dreaming, but this is the fun part, you know what I'm saying? Obviously, I do wanna, I wanna be rich one day. That's something I aspire to be. But I'm like, man, being able to, it's just a privilege to be able to do music, have people listen, get paid off of it, support your friends, do it with your friends. Honestly, not be tied up in a weird label deal. Like that's just a privilege that a lot of people don't get. And y'all know a lot of, for a lot of artists, it's all, you know, you only have a window. So you don't know how long that window's gonna last. And so you wanna capitalize on everything but at the same time, it's just like you also just wanna be present and enjoy it. And so I love listening to like, I think Jack Harlow had a track on that. He was talking about how he missed the old days and stuff like that. And obviously there's some like, you know, some conflict there, but it's just cool cause it shows that when you wanna come up, when you're in the van with all your boys and you driving across the city, that's just something that you don't get to do that again later on in life sometimes, you know, because of circumstance, because either your career's died down or you just in a different place in your career. So I know my answers belong with you. Hey, cut that yon, they yawning on me. So just cut that up. The last question, man. And you don't have to think of this from a music industry perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you hear it. Sorry, bro. I had an energy drink for a can, so I'm liking it. No, I'm very, because I looked, I didn't know what you was pointing at first. I looked over there like, what's he talking about? Oh, you didn't see the camera there? Talking to y'all, make sure y'all cut to this camera so it don't look, don't do it on this angle. It feels like I'm talking to the wall. They look crazy. All right. But you gotta zoom in when they was yawning. So yeah, I don't look crazy. So y'all, they was trying to hold it in. They was like, you know what I'm saying? Nah, I get it. Were you here to term no labels necessary? What does that mean to you? I feel bad, cause I just listened to a podcast himself. So I got the other girls answered in my head. So I'll try to be, the whole question was like, you know, the whole motivation was like, be yourself. You know what I'm saying? So I'll try to, and I gotta get an answer that's gonna make y'all not young. So let me see. No labels necessary. I don't know, man. Do it yourself, man. Like, do it yourself. Like nobody's gonna get your hand out. Like, and I like the chocolate necessary. Cause it's not that it's not bad. That's the place that I'm in right now where I'm trying to figure it out. Like, oh, I don't want to miss out on opportunity because I'm so caught in my bubble. Cause I do believe there's some genuine people out there who really want to help. Like I think y'all are super dope. Like y'all not a label, but like if y'all started a label that wouldn't change who you are. So, you know, I would assume that there's opportunity to actually help people, you know? But at the same time, it's like, if you really want it bad enough, go get it. Like don't wait for somebody else. And I'll say this, this is my last piece of advice cause I tell all my friends who are hella talented, just put out your content, put out your music. Stop being scared. Like a lot of my songs blew up even years later. If I would've never put that out, if I would've overthought it, if I would've been like, oh, this is, like don't put out trash music, don't put out trash content, but don't wait, it don't have to be perfect to put out. You know what I'm saying? Like just put it out cause you can be the only thing holding yourself back. So, and you never know where it's gonna go. I love it. I love it. So one day we gonna be on a yacht. Yeah, there it is, there it is. That's what you looking for? We gonna be on a yacht one day and I'ma ask you, I'ma be like my Rick Ross and be like, yeah, so what you think, you know? What may I ask you? Well, there's no labels necessary, me. Yeah, yeah. No labels necessary. I always say that use labels, don't let labels define you, right? So I can communicate to you that hey, I'm a marketer, right? That's me using a label. I don't have to define myself or to put myself into a specific box. The way I think about myself can still be limitless even though I'm using these labels, right? They're not necessary for me to operate within the world. That's one of the like four or five different ways. I literally heard you just say that on the other episode. So it's just to say, I was like, I'm not lying. That's true. I said, or it's like a, you know, it's like HR, you know? Like, or PR or whatever. Somebody gave you a script and like, people gonna ask you this, they gonna try to throw you off. This is what we say. No, no, no. I knew you gonna say that too. For y'all who don't know, his name is not Brandon, it's Sean. Cause I know there's some people watching this and y'all hear him say it's Brandman Network, right? Brandman, well, I'm Brandman Sean. Brandman Network is a channel. Yeah, you know. I'm putting you on. You had the question. His name is Sean, not Brandon or Brandman. There you go. But those who don't know. No, but if you want to label them that. I got you, I got a whole new skill for you. All right, I'm done. I'm done. I should stop now. Yo, this is yet another episode of No Labels Necessary. I'm Brandman Sean. Okay. Brandman Jaylen. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, we out. Peace. Appreciate you for watching. If you like content like this, you'll love seeing our music marketing strategies that we use as an agency to actually blow up artists to millions and even billions of streams that are available for free at nolabelsnecessary.com and the cool part about it that's gonna really make you love it is we don't have to be all entertaining and add all this fluff just to get some use that we do on YouTube. We get straight to the information. There's play by play in courses that give you a breakdown of every step that you should do to get success. And you have the ability to have communication with us. We get on live talks, a lot of cool things for members and it's free just to hop in. So check it out right now at nolabelsnecessary.com.