 we are at the end of a long journey. Back in September, we started on this series of explorations on others' web doing and the decentralized web, interact and contribute to civil society and how can civil society get engaged with that community? And so here we are at the end of those 16 events and I think we've learned a tremendous amount and encourage all of you to go and visit us at our website where we're documenting out the videos and the learnings from all of these sessions. Leading us through these 16 sessions has been Anne Connell, who's been our subject matter expert and basically the shepherd for us as we figure out where do these two communities interact and what can we learn from each other. And so I'm going to pass it over to Anne who is going to center us for what is today going to look like. Welcome everyone else. This is top down. Great. Thank you so much. So yeah, welcome everybody. Thanks for that. That's an amazing thing. How do you do that? That was really cool. Anyway, you have to teach us that after we get off. But yeah, yeah, that's great. So welcome back. This is our final session as Eli mentioned and we are very excited to welcome back Michelle Wukar. She is head of ecosystem at Octant and recently co-authored the state of Web three grants report and created the protocol party game as a researcher in the Ethereum Foundation summer of protocols program. She's a Forbes 30 under 30 two time TEDx speaker and has worn many hats in years prior, including being a media entrepreneur, a community builder and a writer. So Michelle is here to answer all of your questions. So feel free to ask about anything you want, things you don't understand about blockchain or crypto, you want to tell us all about your organization and we can help you understand how you might be able to incorporate blockchain into what you're doing or take some first steps to getting your organization into the Web three space. And yeah, so definitely feel free to join on camera if you'd like to or just to hop on with questions. Welcome everyone. Does anyone want to kick us off with with something with the question for for Michelle or myself? I love those tips as a side note, like I want to know how to do this. That's really cool. Hi, John. Good to see you again. Thank you. I really enjoyed last week's presentation and Michelle, I did reach out to you. I was the one who reached out to you on it was tell one of the messaging apps. I can't remember now, but anyway, you had your last week, you had presented some research links and I'll be glad to put those in the chat here. And I'd be curious to know you had various subject categories there. And I just sent them in the chat here where you had some research links to token models, community building, DAO on boarding, grant programs, protocols and quadratic funding and voting. Those links are those your own personal research. Those represent your own personal research. So I was wondering if maybe you could go through those and just talk about a little bit about maybe the general concept and then what you found in your research along those lines. Sure. Let me share. Okay. So this is a piece I wrote for for French with a crypto media company. And it was really about rethinking community design. And I can start off with that one. Community has become a dirty word, I'd say, in the sense that everyone uses the word way too flexibly and just everyone's trying to build a community. Everything's a community. And I went into a few different nuances in terms of why we need to rethink community design. And as part of that, I mentioned a few different things. And so you can read the full piece here. But the gist of that was really that we should rethink how we, I think the first step to rethinking community design is a lot of people typically have metrics like comments or likes or just engagement where someone has to put an effort. But I feel like the way that we look at that is a little bit maybe misaligned in terms of expectations and it's a little bit wrong. And I say that because if I look at my own activity or when I see most communities, there's a big chunk of people who are just lurking. And lurking really just means looking at the content without engaging in any way. And that to me is a form of engagement because everyone's trying to pull your attention and you are playing an attention game when you build anything. The fact that someone's looking at the message or the post in itself is a form of engagement. And that's a really strong metric. It's unrealistic to expect the majority of your community to be engaging and to be active. You're only going to have a subset of folks who go on and make the effort to share and to show up in the way people typically expect them to. So the way we look at community activity needs to change a little bit. And so any amount of time you can get, any amount of face time or even thinking time from a person is really valuable. And so even if you think about how do people engage in your own community, that was like one of the things in like a perspective shift. I think lurkers are a very important part of any community and any kind of engagement. And yeah, if for all the posting that happens, you really do want people that are interested in looking at what's happening, right? So that was really one, one part of it. And then I went into a couple of other ways in terms of how to really reassess in what community means in Web 3 in particular, where for a lot of folks, it's a sentence of identity. It's a social status depending on which community you're a part of. And you're part of an in group and went into those nuances and how that's shifted in this industry. So that's one piece. And then there's another one, which is like a how to guide on quadratic funding. And this one was published in Gitcoin. But let me share the links to that because this is on their blog. So if you have ever participated in a QF round, or if you want to understand how to participate in one, this is really like a how to guide that kind of breaks down what it is and how to, yeah, really just brace all of that down. And then let me share a couple of other links from on the QF side because what I did was I did a couple of other case studies. One of them go into, oh yeah, this is an interesting one. So this is Arbitrum, which is a layer two, they've been giving out a bunch of funding to a bunch of different projects. And what they're trying to do is this would be a good one for you to look at if you're thinking about building on a layer two, they will actually match funds, if it's a project that is interesting enough to them. And so I think there's categories that they've defined that are on their forum. So look at the conversations happening in the Arbitrum DAO forum. And so they'll match funding number one and number two, they've got their own rounds that they've been running. So I covered two rounds. And what they allowed their community to do is they broke it down. So they had a pool of funding that was run by Plurality Labs. And before deciding which projects should get funding, what they actually wanted to figure out was what categories are important, and how should this big pot of funding be divided in terms of category. So this was an interesting use case because what they did here was they opened up four different categories, and then a fifth one was anything that doesn't fall into the first four bucket. And then people could donate to the different categories. And that would decide which category got more funding from this bigger pool. And that was very interesting because they got over $5,000 in donations directly. And they were able to really get a lot of understanding in terms of the categories that were more interesting to people. So that was the first. And then the second part of that was the actual projects. And they opened up submissions to projects for those categories and to be able to apply. And that got a lot of activity as well. And a lot of products got funding. But what was interesting was the projects that had more interest in the first round and the donations didn't necessarily match up the individual project donations. And so the second round was a little bit different. And depending on the kind of project, it seemed like there were certain projects that just felt more important to the community and that they were more interested in. And so it was a cool way to see how all of that got split up. So this is one of the case studies to look at. These guys are also doing another round. So this case study is about grad stack, which is how they did these two rounds. But they've also announced $100,000 for, I think it's six rounds on a platform called Joke Race. And Joke Race helps around funding and engagement and community contests and things like that. So that's another announcement that's been making rounds. And I think you're, yeah, that's going to be open to funding. Yeah, they're going to open up applications soon as well. And then there was another one that I, that was an interesting case study was this one called GeoWeb. And they were interesting because it was the first time that I saw a round and I covered something where they had four ETH, which if you compare it to most rounds, it's not a lot of funding. But this was an example of how you can actually market in this space. And even with just like four ETH, you can still get a lot of activity and onboard people into your community. And they were able to get significant traction and momentum by running around on GitQuing RedStack. So this was a use case of showing that you don't need to have a lot of funding to run around. So if you've got a little bit of marketing funding and you want to do something in Web3, a potential way of actually making traction in, oh, yes, thank you. So yeah, with $2,200, like you can essentially get awareness and build a traction and grants are a really easy way to enter this space. And Joke Race is one I'll mention because I do know their founder in Fantastic. So David Phelps, let me link his Twitter. So they really help with the promotional side of things with rounds. And Fantastic founder, even like the demo and how to use this platform is super, super simple. So a really good way to partner and enter the space could be run something on Joke Race and then partner with someone like Arbitrum to help match the funds. And you can partner with a few different communities and get more funding for what you're trying to do. So this is the final one. And then there are a couple of other pieces. So this is my mirror. And here I've written about why communities are struggling to retain interest. And I'm not going to go into that. You can read the piece, but a little bit about we think a lot of, again, misconceptions, a lot of assumptions that are wrong. And so that's one piece. Another one was around onboarding, 4,000 specific. So yeah, these are a couple of the pieces. Yeah, helpful. One of the conversations. Oh, sorry. Go ahead there, John. One quick question that I had related to protocols. Is that a interchangeable term, protocols and blockchain, meaning if we're talking about layer two and on the ether blockchain, that's pretty much an interchangeable term. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, they're building on a, yeah, interchangeable terms. And a layer two typically builds on a layer one, right? So layer twos are really to make layer ones more accessible. So a layer one protocol is something like Ethereum, but running any transaction on Ethereum is so expensive. So a layer two comes in, takes the load away from the layer one, and makes it cheaper to still have it be accessible. There might be some giveaways in terms of every layer two is a different thing that they use as their value prop. But the whole point of it is to make it more accessible and cheaper and easier to use. So that's why layer twos are more popular now. And yeah, they build on top of an existing technology. Right. Is there any particular stack that is more forward thinking as far as the environment and, or is it just who's paying more for carbon offsets? That's a good question. So when Ethereum had this transition, I think it was this year, where it went from proof of work to proof of stake? Or am I saying it the other way around? I'm forgetting if it was. Yeah, proof of work to proof of stake. Yeah. Yes. Okay. I was getting confused for you both. But so that was really important because it really reduced energy, the energy that goes into essentially helping the network run. And so that helped a lot from the sustainability side of things. But from a layer two perspective, they're all so hyper competitive. And there was this space is so fast paced that depending on which month you're in, it's going to be a different value prop. And they're all really just growing and developing so quickly. So I don't, I can't say I have a favorite because each of them have different things that I appreciate. And then some that I'm like, I don't know about this. So I think it just depends. And then a lot of those layer twos enable specification of functionality for different use cases, which is nice too. So something that works for one application may not be so effective for another. So that's where you start to get just more chains that are better suited for exactly what you want to be doing, which is a good thing. Absolutely. And I'm sure you hear this all the time. Just you're talking to an old man here, but the similar to what Gary Vee did with on a marketing level for a nonprofit tying a, whether it's an NFT or a token or anything like that to a donation so that it can have, so you can build something that has a life outside of the donation. So it can be tied to events or it can be tied to the special offers or anything with promoters. How is that, how is the framework thought of? If you're thinking of building something like that, where do you start? Is it back in the day before I had access to your brains? I was looking up even like, how do you start blockchain? But now there's so much infrastructure already and I would love to hear what your ideas are. Yeah, I've linked two different links here. So events and NFTs at events are proof of attendance. This is really popular. It's something people get really excited about. People love collecting co-apps and then showing off which co-apps they have. And it's a good way to build community as well. And if I can share my screen for a second. Okay. This is the summer protocols program that I did. This is for a mentorship program that I'm a part of and that I've mentored in. But as you can see, like different events, you can collect co-apps. And this was a way for people to connect with other people and collect their co-apps too. And so this is a fun way to do that using NFTs and very easy interface in UX to use. So I would say instead of building a new infrastructure, which you can totally do as well, but as a starting point, use these and look at how they are. The other one is Hyperserts. And these are in a way used to build on-chain reputation. And an example of that is if you've donated to a Gitcoin project or you've participated as a grantee, you can mint a Hypersert. And if projects donated to you and you were a project that got some funding, you can create a Hypersert for people who funded your project as well. And then they can get to mint it. And so there's different ways to incentivize engagement and participation. It almost acts like a little, almost like a sticker. Was it the Boy Scout stands that you would get or badges? Yeah, it's almost like badges really. So that's what Hyperserts are meant to do is you can mint these and then it shows up on your profile and on your Web3 address, which acts as your public-facing profile in a way. So those are some of the ways that can help with that in way. Hyperserts are really easy to create as well. So different communities use them in different ways. But if you really want to reward your community, for example, for showing up, you could also create a Hypersert and send it to them. And if you want to layer it down, there are ways for people to even donate. So what they can do is you're like, hey, we're opening this up to community donations. If you'd like to fund us, you can have different tiers of Hyperserts and they can even vote on it. So there are different ways of even like breaking it down as much as you want. But these are two tools that are picking up traction and Hyperserts were co-created by folks at Protocol Labs, which is Filecoin Foundation as they've, I think, sponsored the series. Pretty credible, reputable folks and pull up again, pretty reputable as well. So those are two names you can trust. And then if I think you want to learn from those, that would be a good start. Yeah. I would nod to that and say, I would start with what's the purpose of doing it. Is it a stewardship reward that people are just going to have and look at and think is pretty? Or are you trying to do more with it? And as Michelle was saying with Hyperserts, their bigger longer term goal was like tokenizing impact outcomes and being able to enable like retroactive funding of those pieces and then have kind of the sharing of the ownership of those outcomes. So it was actually quite a bit more complex than say a po-op that as she said is literally just like a badge. Now, one of the cool things about po-ops is that your unique collection of badges can actually create a digital fingerprint for you or some sort of version of a decentralized identity because the probability that anyone else in the world has the exact same badge mix that you do is very low. And so in some ways like you could say, okay, what's me because I've been to all these different events or at this stage is a hypothetical. No one's really using it as an identity, but it in some ways it could be used for that in the same way a fingerprint can. So there's some cool things happening there. So I would think about, yeah, how deep do you want it to get? Is it just like a pretty piece? But I would also agree that I think NFTs in a fundraising capacity are better as like a stewardship piece rather than like a sales mechanism, I think. So I would really look at like donor stewardship and then donor ownership over the community elements again of participating as opposed to a lot of charities their first step is let's sell NFTs and it's going to be great and then they're really disappointed in the outcome because one they haven't stewarded the crypto community at all. Many of them want to sell NFTs and don't even have a Bitcoin donation program. And then they just don't realize the bigger picture of the community that Michelle's been talking about and what that means and how to participate. So there's some kind of cool layers and levels to it all. It is so exciting. Seriously, like, yeah, it's learning from a fire hose at this point, but it's very exciting. And do you mind breaking down the difference between like, as you explain it, the difference between stewardship versus? Yeah, so I spent about 10 years in the non-profit space before I got into crypto and was doing a lot of the fundraising. And so a lot of charities are just like ask for money and they forget that there's a lot of the best ways to fundraise are communicating with the donors and making the donors feel appreciated and making them like have a sense of ownership over the work that they have funded. And sometimes that looks like field visits or visits to the office or meetings or just like documents with updates. But with this NFT piece, again, there's that kind of extra layer of, hey, I actually own this token, which is a direct representative of the impact that I funded. And so there's to even take it higher than this. There's companies. Ixo protocol is one Ixo that I worked on a long time ago at a South Africa that is tokenizing these impact outcomes with the goal of trading them on open markets like you might trade carbon credits. Now, I see some issues with some of that and there's different layers to it, but that's what they were hoping to do is really this idea of, okay, I have a million dollars and I want to fund something. Here's another group that's already achieved it. They put the token out there. I can retroactively fund this work that has happened or use it as a stepping stone to say, I've got a million dollars. I don't necessarily want to put it into this group that is a bit unproven. Here's a group that's already proven. They can do it with these tokenized outcomes. Now, where it gets even more interesting is the level of verification you can have for these different tokens can change based on the verification you need as a funder. So one of our earliest projects was a project called Ampli MPLY that essentially in South African preschools, the teachers would get paid to teach these underprivileged children that couldn't afford to pay for preschool. But they had to do that by taking paper attendance and then every six months going to the government with their stack of papers and they would tally it and a year or two later they would get paid. So a lot of them didn't want to do it. And Ampli essentially created an app where they would just look like an attendance sheet and they just tick, tick, tick and it would auto pay the teachers in crypto and then create a token that work had been completed to enable others to then buy those outcomes. So you could say the teachers incentivized to just lie about which kids showed up at school and tick all the boxes. You could say we're just going to trust the teacher and that's it. Or you could say we're going to trust the teacher and the principal has to verify. Or you could say we need each kid to stick their fingerprint in the phone every morning or we need each kid to have a geo tracker in their own cell phone that demonstrates that they're at school that day or and so there's these levels of verification that you can decide on based on how much trust you need or trust you have in the actual deliverers of that product or that outcome. So there's some cool stuff happening there. There's another company called Proof of Impacts. I think that was working. It was Fills. Fills. Yeah, I know it's cool. There's some neat stuff. The XO1, I worked on that in 2017. It's been around for a long time. So yeah, there's so many things. And I think hyper starts of Michelle's thing is doing similar work, I think, but I would say hyper starts is a more like technical group of people that are building it. And then you get there's a group called Outcomes X that's doing something similar, but they come very much from the like large scale impact space. So like huge funders, but don't necessarily have the technical expertise that hyper starts would have. It goes a little bit in the middle. So again, it also depends on who you're serving. Is it like a retail donation market, your mom and pop donating $100, or are you looking at the German national government that wants to drop a billion dollars into different development programs? And so getting a sense of that, I think hyper starts in this moment is super cool for techy crypto people and is going to grow, whereas maybe Outcomes X is starting with big money and trying to figure out how to make that work. And again, XO a little bit in the middle on that. There's some cool things happening in the space for sure. Just absolutely blown away and yeah, wow. I'll try to find some links here and drop them in the chat for everybody. I'm definitely, between the two of you, I'm going to be picking your brain so much. Yeah, we're trying to help other youth service organizations because as I've been traveling the world, I've been seeing that there are these smaller youth service organizations that are doing great work, but they have no idea that there's 10 minutes away an organization serving the same demographic in a very similar way, but they don't know each other exists. And so we're trying to take our marketing background and really help and create more of the community for them. I love that. And one thing I just want to say, if it feels like this is a lot of overwhelming information, you're not alone. Even people who've been veterans of this industry constantly feel like they're behind on how fast this space is developing, right? And even though I'm so deeply tapped into this space, I still constantly feel like there's just so much more always to be learning about. It's completely normal if you're feeling like there's just a lot, and at some point you just accept it and just get used to it. I was texting my kids after I was listening to you, I was texting them because I was doing that to them about virtual production and about LED caves and about all the work we've setting up so that kids, young people in other countries can control a camera in our studio and I was typing, I'm experiencing it now. I'm getting just completely overwhelmed by new information. So yeah, this is fun, especially as an oldie. It's so cool to be overwhelmed with something so incredible. It's like another gold rush. It's a bit addictive. It's because everything happens so fast and there's all this new info and you're like, oh my gosh. And yeah, I took a couple of months not diving into everything super deep. And yeah, now I'm like, oh, like I'm behind. What do I do? I need to get back. So yeah, it's tricky. But the other comment I would say on some of this stuff is, especially with the impact area, I think sometimes in crypto we have a love of over complicating. And so it's like you create all these like badges and tokens and impact outcomes and you're trying to trade them on decentralized marketplaces with no intermediaries. And then you're like, did more people get HIV medication or not? We spent a lot of money with all this infrastructure. Did it actually create more outcomes? And that's where I think we're like, we're not there necessarily. But again, it's like early stages. And I think there's so many applications, just basic like money movement alone as an application of crypto and impact, like the World Food Program has been using it in four different refugee camps that they have. And they saved three and a half million dollars last year just on bank fees. And so those are like the little 10% wins, like that we've just improved the way we do things a little bit. And the outcomes are incredible. But the way crypto is working is we're not so much working for those 10% gains. We're looking to blow apart the model. And in the early stages of the blowing apart model, you don't see the enormous outcomes at the beginning. And then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, wow, this changed everything and the way we work completely. So we're still in that kind of deceptive phase where we're building a lot of these products and you're like, this seems complicated. But the end goal is really that at the end of the day, you'll get kind of exponential levels of change in the way we do things. That's a really good point. I'm sorry, Mark, should go up please. Please go for it. I just, I, you're the idea of what you said initially of like, we're, I'm often thinking about what's the next big thing as opposed to, okay, but did thank you note get sent for a donation? And are you doing the basics to make sure that people feel appreciated and loved for their involvement? I think where it can really help what we're doing is one of our tenants is transparency. And I think that by giving our donors and our supporters that transparency of this is a way that we're holding ourselves accountable as well as allowing you to see what guarantee what you're being involved in and giving to through through this technology. I think that's where it can really help if it's education or educated correctly to your donors. That's a whole other step. There's some questions. I'm gonna step back for a little bit. Nick, do you want to go ahead? Yeah. So I just want to quickly echo what and just earlier that there's a lot of over complicating things. I myself have been a blockchain industry pretty much since the very beginning. And we wanted to build something that's actually more inclusive because I've eventually realized what we were doing was very, it's like keeping the bar very, very high. I don't think a lot of people understand what TechSoup is doing. This is great, but I really really speaking, I really just don't see people onboarding blockchain. This way you've seen those MetaMask wallet services. So what we really want to do is going back to the basic, we are building a civic platform as a DAO that want to reward users for civic participation. And one of our product features is quadratic voting, which is very aligned with blockchain. The thing is, this is very inspired by the fact that a lot of those foundations, organizations say they value public good and stuff. We have had a hard time just even opening doors or have scheduling meetings just to share what we're building. For example, we tried to apply for CELO a while ago and that led to nowhere. And then we applied for a lot of things that led to nowhere. I'm at a point where I just need to run the idea by the experts and then tell me, how isn't this working? What's wrong with this? So I'm hoping for a chance to just in a way pitching, but not really pitching for money or more like pitching for challenges, right? Yeah, go for it. Yes. Is there any way that we can do that? And then this question is also directly at Amasha. We wanted to, it seems the foundation is doing a lot of things, but I missed my chance to link up with Vitalik when I had a chance. So I just sometimes just wanted to have a 30 minute conversation with the prominent figures. Now, is there any way to, how can we get that? We deeply believe that what we're building is for the goodness of humanities. Yeah. So in terms of how to link up with EF folks, so Vitalik is of course really hard to get access to because of how busy he is and how much he's got on displayed, but the EF does have their ESP program, which is our support program. They've got office hours. And so anyone you want to link up with, they'd be good to get in touch with. And then if there's someone in particular, I think they do have a PR slash like, so they've got a subtraction philosophy in the sense that they really don't self promote in ways and they really try to shy away from that. But any press that comes of course is good, but they've just, in terms of their organization DNA, that's just something they shy away from, but they do really support meaningful work. And so they've got the next billion program, and they've got a fellowship program, and both of those really helped support. I feel like your project might be a good fit for one of those two. So it's worth checking those out, attending the office hours and getting in touch with the folks who are running these programs. And let me try to find some links for these, but I think those would be good, starting points at least. And I'd say the other part is, if it's about pitching and getting feedback, there's a bunch of projects. So recently, like Artisan did this project pitching round. And so there's different spaces that go on with different ecosystems, right? But a lot of them happen on Twitter and whatnot. So I'd say start engaging with folks again on Twitter and figuring out what are ways that you could essentially either like, East Denver is the other big event that's on my radar right now. But I'd say attending some of the events there and figuring that out would be really good. And then the other part would be the office hours for these programs. I do think a bunch of the grants teams will be there, and the ecosystem folks will be there during these events, right? So see who you can get in touch with and get their time while you're talking to them and understand how you can get your feedback there. I think that would be a good starting point. I would also add, so I had trouble getting money out of SLO also. And I think Ethereum Foundation, to be really honest, is quite tricked with what they fund. Two, three, four, five years ago, the grant programs were really broad. People were dumping money at anything. It's not the case anymore. You really need to look at what are the specific needs and wants of all of these different platforms and blockchains that you're building on to see what they're looking for. And I also would say like, Vitalik is not the person you need to talk to. He's not in control of the private strings. He's not there reading proposals. So I think if you're going after Vitalik, you're probably doing it wrong to begin with. So I would really, as Michelle says, get yourself to eat Denver, but then also figure out if you've got a great product that solves a great problem, where's your user base? Like, who's using it? How come it's not spreading? What sort of marketing you're doing there? And if you're struggling, I would check out Kernel, K-E-R-N-E-L is like a really high quality, not quite the right word. It's like an incubator accelerator in the crypto space with the best mentors that you will find, like the greatest people it brings together. It itself is chaotic. I find it very chaotic and not the most well structured accelerator, but the people are incredible. So if you go in there and you start pitching your product while you're as a part of that program, you're really going to get good information about either this is too far ahead of its time, or you're somehow missing that product market fit with the type of consumers you're working with. So I would check that out and just see. But yeah, I wouldn't get too discouraged if you don't get funded by Ethereum Foundation or Selo, because I think Ethereum Foundation in particular just doesn't, they don't hand out money to a lot of people. So they've got two different buckets and programs. They are the ones who take the most risk out of all of the different ecosystems, I'd say. So if there's a project that wouldn't typically fit within other ecosystems and their definitions of what their programs are for, the EF would be a good bet for funding those kinds of projects if they see the value in it. But it really is worth it to get in touch through the office hours and they can help figure out which, because their teams have different grant funding as well that's available to them. It's not just their typical ESP or they've got a few different buckets in terms of how they fund in just in terms of their grant funding. So it would be worth it to figure out who would be the right team even to connect with or something of this sort. Yeah, thanks. I just want to respond to a couple of feedback you guys provided. I'm not exactly looking, you know, to reach out to Vitalik. I understand he is not. And then, and also I think we have answers to a lot of questions that people may want to ask. Why are we doing what we're doing? Just want to, I'm not even at the point like asking for money. I understand like I came from that, that background. I'm not at the point is like sanity check, idea validation. I don't, I just want to start small and then, but I do want to share it with people in the space because what we are involved in are civic technology and blockchain. Now these are somewhat overlapping but they are actually quite different. So sometimes I would chat up people from civic technology, but they're not really blockchain people. And then people are in the blockchain business are tend to be trading related stuff, right? I don't even have an empty to begin with. I call an empty right away, right out that it was just going to be this huge skin. Yeah, I already send the email to Marsha just like yesterday. I was hoping if I could just schedule a quick meeting with you, I want to, I want to be able to make you jump off your seat. I think we have something, you know, and this is an international scope as well. And it's, it's a DAO, but it's not just a DAO. It's going to be a wrong as a twin inch. Jenny's social enterprise and it will have a dot com and have a DAO in parallel. So I just hope to have a chance to share this with you. Have you checked out radical exchange? I think it might be a good fit for you. Yes, I'm familiar with their work. The concept of quadratic voting obviously came from a well funding as well. I actually, I've talked to Audrey a few times. Audrey sits on the board of radical exchange and then obviously it's from the book radical market. So I, without talking to my own horn, but I'm not familiar with this works. And so I need people to talk to. And by this people need to be like somewhat expert in this field. The people I've been talking to, they are not really, I'm based in Taiwan. So just to answer your question earlier, you asked, okay, where are we targeting? Do you have a, I'm a base now that we're targeting, but this is, I'm, I'm running into the issue because democracy is, can be taken for granted. And actually, I don't think a lot of people understand the true meaning of democracy. This is, so sorry, without taking too much time, I know that the dollar is coming up. So I don't want to take up too much time, but just hopefully March, I can check your email and then hopefully we can schedule a quick meeting. I just shared my calendar link. Feel free to pick something later, part of the first week of Jan or the second week of Jan. Just feel free to pick a slot. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you, Anne. No problem. John, go for it. I'll make this real quick because I don't want to take anybody else's time. But so the, one thing I found having applied to the get coin around this, the, this November was one thing I found real helpful. It's just a little tip. Just go through the current rounds and copy and paste what the current makers are doing and see that'll give you a cadence and a flavor of what they're, what the current people, current rounds are doing, people in the current round or even makers in the current rounds are doing. Found that real helpful. The other thing is real quick, Anne, I saw something that you were affiliated with or you were giving a talk on solidity. What I know, I've seen they've done some events in the past and they're in that smart contract area where they, I guess they're an agency that writes small contract, smart contracts. Could you speak to that a little bit about solidity and what they're up to? Because I noticed they're ever present in at least the Ethereum space. I don't think that would have been me, but solidity basically is the programming language for Ethereum. So that's the language that people code in to create smart contracts, essentially. I don't know, Michelle, do you have more info on the solidity? He said, I'm not a coder. So that's why it's not, not my area. Maybe I just saw that you were listed in the conference as a speaker, maybe in solidity, maybe was a sponsor. That's definitely possible. I probably would have been speaking on something else in particular, but yeah, I don't know if, yeah, if you know anything more on that. Solidity is more of a smart contract. Yeah, language. Is there anything in particular around solidity that I can help with the resources for? They do, they do every once while they do these high level conferences and they're extraordinarily expensive, but they bring together all the thought leaders. Singularity? Singularity, it could be. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Singularity University is essentially like a think tank out of Silicon Valley in California and their whole mantra is like, how do we use exponential technology? So technology that kind of grow on this exponential curve to solve problems that impact a billion people or more. So again, it's like, how do we get people out of this mindset of making these problems 10% better, which is pretty much how humans think and how we operate in most charitable sectors, right? You're like, oh, we treated more patients or we fed more homeless or whatever it is. And their whole view on it is if you can use technology as a part of your solution, you can scale in a way that wouldn't have otherwise been possible. For example, if you are, here's a great example. There was a story of a guy in India who was planting trees by hand and he planted this enormous forest that's bigger than the size of Central Park. But there's a company out of South Africa that is now planting trees with drones. And so with one pilot, they can plant 40,000 seeds per day. And so it's just like the scale of what you can do by incorporating these technologies is incredible. So Singularity runs executive programs that bring 80 people from all over the world together in Silicon Valley. And they run them a couple of times a year. They're not cheap. I will warn you that in advance, I think they're about $14,000, but it's a week long. It's worth every penny. And if you want a code that kind of gets you to the front of the application line, I can drop it in the Zoom. But yeah, that program changed my life and the way I think about everything. So I would highly recommend it. I'll drop a link in there so that if you want to take a look. I'll just mention a little story. I hate dead space. So I want to fill it up a little bit. I was having a conversation with my sister, who's an anti-vaxxer. And she was going on and on about Bill Gates and the Gabilies Foundation and how basically what it was a bad for, she's in a healthcare field. It was bad for basically this to happen because the vaccines that are produced have been, has caused real problems on developing countries and so forth. And so we had this big long conversation and we came up with Web 3.0. And I said, the conversation we're really having here is not anti-Bill Gates. What the conversation we're really having here is this neoliberalism and capitalism. And because Bill Gates, I'm sure he started out with good intentions and he's using his philanthropic powers to spread his influence all over the world. And I said, this is not a conversation about anti-Bill Gates. It's a conversation about centralized government, however you characterize that whether it's a neoliberal approach or it's capitalism, classic capitalism. And I just got to believe that from that conversation I had with her that millennials and Gen Xs and Gen Ys are thinking differently now. And there just seemed to be such a hand in glove fit for these Gen Xs and millennials and so forth that want this sort of thing, that want maybe some alternative to the top down centralized point of view and things like that where you're criticizing the lamp of this for doing what they're doing when they're only trying to do the best. They're working within the system we have. So I thought it was a little interesting story about that. Yeah, thanks. I know definitely people on the web three are trying to break apart the systems that we've built and so many of these systems that I think like why some of this stuff in blockchain can be very scary for people as you're breaking apart the very foundations of society, whether it's money, identity, governance, these really big behemoths that have been very stable forces in our lives and in our societies over time. But we've realized maybe they actually don't serve us quite as well as we thought they did. So that's really the underlying look at this is again, let's not make this 10% better by fixing gerrymandering or opening election lines earlier or whatever it's let's screw the whole thing and build it from scratch. So I think there's some yeah interesting, interesting angles there. Those of us who missed your prior session, we'd love to learn a little bit more about the work that's happening at Auckland around this funding of public goods. Because I think there has been real deep interest in our community about what does that mean and how does civil society get into the mix around that? Yeah, sure. I can start off with the Auckland part. We were a project started by Golem Foundation and the mission really was to fund public goods essentially. So what we've done is we've taken 100,000 ETH and we've staked it. And then the rewards that come from that staking essentially fund Auckland and help fund public goods projects. And how folks can get involved is they can lock in so they can get some GLM and lock it. And once you've locked it for 90 days, you can then vote in the epoch or the the project surround that comes up. So you can either withdraw those essentially rewards for personal use or you can funnel it back into public goods. And then you get to vote on those projects. And that's really how we work. And so we've got our bigger epoch rounds where folks can personally donate to these projects and really contribute. And we're at that earlier stage right now where every voice spatters. And there's a lot of opportunity to really influence how a lot of this funding goes and where it's funneled. But we're starting community rounds now. So we just launched our She-Fi Auckland round. And that's specifically to fund female founders. But we're doing small rounds with different communities to help fund projects in those communities. And just to help diversify the kind of funding that goes into public goods and just into the space as a whole. Yeah, so if you're part of a community that would want to partner with, we're super open to a lot of partnership opportunities in that way. And yeah, the She-Fi one's one I've been really excited about because that was one of the ways I got into this space. And it feels like we're giving back. And again, female founders, everyone knows how terrible the stats are in terms of funding. And so I feel like whatever little efforts we can do to help change that, it's important and necessary. Exciting. And so many of the, so such a large part of the demographic that we're targeting is of the underserved young adults that are coming out of being trafficked or homelessness or foster care. They are, we value distance traveled. And so we see that the female demographic within that has such a steeper hill to climb. And that's why we target the, some of the jobs that are consistently on the top 100 jobs of the future with AR and VR. And how that applies to different, different verticals, like not just entertainment and game, but also AEC and medical and even fashion now and automotive. So there's a lot of different applications for that. And being involved with your type of specializations and is is just the way of the future. And yeah, I want to learn everything that you have to share. No, absolutely. And let's definitely chat after as well. If you want to join the community, everything's so accessible. I think that's one of the best parts, right? And so even with Okta and just doing our discord, you'll see all the projects that have applied if you actually want to put one thing that I think I mentioned it last time as well, but just like having the public good side, even to projects that aren't as accessible, that can be, that's one way I'm seeing even bigger companies in the space really get funding for projects. And yeah, there's always a way that we could figure out how to make things work. And especially when you're, yeah, I feel like the work that you've done and y'all are doing is so impactful. So I'd love to learn more about that too. Are you guys funding public good stuff that's not crypto things, traditional public goods? Are you still mostly Web three? We're Web three, but I would love, this is one of those things where I'm like, I think I'd love to see Web two kind of transition into it. And I feel like that pipeline starts with really helping communities understand how to do this, right? Yeah. But I think so far we've really just been Web three focused. Yeah. And to me, that's I think the other thing that I know this community will be curious about is this, these ideas around decentralized governance right now looks like a lot of that selection of people coming into the shortlist are coming basically through the Golden Foundation. But I know there's no ambition to ultimately take some of that into the community as well. Yeah. And so from the governance side, we're actually building out our first governance cycle where what we're doing and we're faced it out. So our first phase and what we're going to experiment with is choosing people who we feel like have really good judgment sensibility and bring a really good background and bring really important experiences to the kind of decision making we want to have and the kind of folks we want on board. So we're running our first cycle based on referrals. And then the second phase that we want to do is to open it up to folks where anyone can self-apply as well. We just want to make sure that we've ironed out the flow of everything and how we want it to be before we before we open it up to everybody. So we're probably going to be testing it out not probably we're testing out the next couple of months. And then I think by the time ETH Denver rolls around, so closer to February and March, I think that's when we're going to probably see the opening up of the application cycle and the, yeah, just like a more open side to that. I think it's going to be a bit of an epic event. I think a lot of people are building towards something for Denver. Yeah, because this is one and then the other is we're going to have a grant summit. So the state of Web 3 grants report that we published, we're doing a second version of it and we're doing something called retroactive funding, like covering that as a report. And so we're going to have a grant summit where we're going to have a lot of operators or anyone who's interested in grant programs who are going to be able to attend. And we're just covering the retro side of it because we didn't touch that at all with our first report that we published a few months ago. And so excited to be going into that. I think that's going to be really fun too. Is that during Denver at the same time? Yeah, we're lining it in a way where we can publish it by the time Denver starts. And so we can, it'll just be more effective to announce it and publish it when the community is all together. Yeah, makes sense. We're coming down to the end of the hour. So I'm going to, I think, call it for today.