 Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. We're here in Boston Massachusetts at Sattler College. We're with Dean Taylor. You're the president of the college here. We're in your office and you did a lecture this earlier this year that really caught our attention and we wanted to talk to you about that and and see if we can hit some of those high points. So during that lecture you said and it was obviously rhetorical just to kind of make a point you read a petition to our president Donald Trump. Can you just read that and then explain kind of what you're getting out there and then how yeah how that all ties in with with parts of our MNI history. All right excellent well okay I'll start with a letter and then I'll explain what I was thinking. Sure. Okay the idea was it was bringing out that you know there's been a lot of you know negative things against the president and you know we know we're supposed to pray for our president and pray and and the government and so the idea you know that all these attacks on the president that we should say something. But in that I wanted to to I wanted to make a point though because I was what I was feeling was that too many of our people are imbibing they're they're taking on this whole I don't know way of thinking of the current presidency and that's very scary. So I wrote this petition here it goes. To the president Donald Trump we the conference of Anabaptist assembled today in Shipshawanna in the free state of Indiana feels deep gratitude for the powerful revival that God has given our nations through your energy and promises joyful cooperation in the building of our fatherland through the power of the gospel faithful to the motto of our forefathers no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid which is Jesus Christ with greatest excitement we are following the events of our beloved country and experience in spirit the national revolution of the American people we are happy that in America after a long time a government that freely and openly professes God as creator stands at the head of the nation with special sympathy we hear that the current government takes seriously the realization of Christian principles in social economic and cultural life and especially emphasizes the protection of the family and sign the conference that I was with so the point that I was making is that with just a couple words changed that was a telegraph a telegram that was sent from the Mennonites to Adolf Hitler that that just mind blown give us some context there a little bit here's the thing and I'll back it up like this okay when I was becoming a conscious objector in Germany and my wife and I it was in 1990 and we were becoming conscious objectors and I remember there we were taken to meet this this man an older man he was at that time in the 70s and he lived in some little community somewhere and as he went there we talked to him about this whole thing about you know the patriotism and and how we were coming out of this you know in our and our revival in our own personal you know conversion to these ideas these kingdom ideas these ideas of Jesus Christ and I said what was it like I mean you were old enough to remember what was it like when you were there when when Nazism was was coming around he's and he looked at me said you know Dean this is a 70-something-year-old man wow he said it was like a revival never forget his words he said it just swept over us like a spirit he said I've left a there's some sort of painting he said I said we were actually Quakers he said his background he's now going to the Mennonites he said I left the a symbol that my father had painted on the barn which was a symbol the meaning to vote for for the Nazi party his father had done that yeah and these are these Mennonite these were Mennonites yeah he said I left it there as a to remind us that we failed in this and that we we took on this spirit in the spirit that took us you know years ago I was when I first came to Lancaster County I was doing anesthesia and I just came from America and I moved to Lancaster County Pennsylvania and I just thought you know anyone who who starts to follow Jesus Christ are not going to get involved in worldly politics and this kind of thing and I remember I was working and I had a Jewish man who was my boss there anesthesiologist working there at the hospital and we had a Amish patient that both of us were working with and we were started talking about politics this is back when George Bush was coming through to Lancaster he flew into Lancaster Conference and all that kind of thing so it's kind of a big talk and and I was like oh no you know Mennonites Amish you know Anabaptists in general you know they they do not vote he's like what what are you talking about they don't vote you know this this Jewish boss of mine I said oh no no they clear I mean clear on that for years they don't vote he said I asked the Amish patient I said I asked if you will so you know I I said so we got his attention and he said you know hey hey Mr whatever his name was he said uh he said hey um you know are you gonna vote in this coming election and he turned around he said well you bet I am I voted in the last one I'm sure I'm gonna vote in this one and I was like yeah boy so that was my initiation and it's interesting I went into the break room a Baptist man that was in there he said hey can I ask a question I said well sure he heard the whole conversation he said well how if you guys vote well why don't you go to war oh if you're gonna vote for the commander in chief then why don't you support him in war and I said you get that wow how did he he totally got that on again I said I said I wish all of us would get you got that and he asked me that question and so you know as I that was my initiation to Langster County and I was like wow okay this is something that we're losing that yeah everyone doesn't vote because or maybe they do secretly as a church standard but there's they're all closet republicans they're all closet you know so it began to bother me but on several different levels because you see it's not just to not vote I really believe that Jesus Christ has the answers for humanity and we began to think any political party by the Democratic Democrat Republican Communist whatever fascist whatever Jesus has the answers the next election I remember I'm driving down 322 there in Langster County and I pull into this pretzel stand and it's an old run by horse and buggy Mennonites and I go in there and I'm about to get a pretzel you know a bag of pretzels and I look on on the table and there where you're waiting to get your pretzels are two stacks of paper and one was a stack of oh was a stack of voter registration cards and the other was a piece of paper of why you should vote for republicans so I said uh was that confusing to you I said well I said well what do you when I said so since when did Mennonites started voting and she said so I said and she said well it's getting so bad we're gonna have to and I said really I said you know historically it's always hurt both the world and the church when when the people of God get involved in politics like this and she said something or another and gave me my pretzels and but I realized then that this is happening so so we go through the next election you know we go through the different things and all the build up with Hillary and Trump and all the things that we saw on the news I was disappointed by the behavior that I was seeing in the Anabaptist and as I saw this campaigning and I and I saw these things it really concerned me as a matter of fact when I was over in Lesbos a couple young people that I had been a part with years ago that I was a pastor of had toasted with their you know gave a toast to Trump's birthday and I talked to them the next day I said so that what happened to all my teachings that I used to talk about in church and remember she said well Dean you've been gone a long time and it hit me that you know it's not like at all that I want to campaign for the other party at all what my heart is is that you know Jesus warns of the leaven of Herod and this leaven of Herod is getting into our people so the biggest mistake that this has ever happened in history was with the Mennonites with Hitler and as I first started studying this I study it started studying it about 10 or 11 years ago it was just coming out there were some works I should maybe quote him here on the and your links tons of material on this yeah it started to come out and I started saying wow this is very interesting and then and now more and more research has come out and it's not a good testimony but the one thing I will say the Mennonites recognize it as a mistake and even after the war the Mennonites repented of this sometimes even publicly of their supporting of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis you know what was happening down in Central America was the same thing is wherever these German people were they thought that this revival of the German people was really a good idea and they and but the the obvious excuse is this well we didn't know we didn't know what happened well yeah like that's what I heard from some of the people I interviewed when I was we didn't know they were killing Jews and we didn't know like literally some of them did not know until the 1950s exactly that's just the point that's just the point that by not by getting our principles off and trying to look to American politics to politics in general to fix our problem we'll end up giving our support to an antichrist and not even know it that's the point wow so now when you're looking at the current political environment whether it's far left or far right or whatever I'm supposed to give my scent to one of these political parties that they're going to have in the kingdom answer to this world I can't do it and so I I wrote that letter as sort of a thought you know we could easily have said this today and some of the people that were in that audience would have said that and even signed that petition to be sent out and it's a wake-up call to say guys this is bad leaven this is bad leaven we've been down there this letter has been written with a different name on the the front cover yeah that was the kind of the point behind wow so then we start getting into all kinds of I mean this can get kind of crazy pretty quick and I and I have some feeling we're going to probably get some heat for for putting this stuff out but I think it is worth learning these lessons from history I can I can hear people saying well okay but what about the whole Romans 13 isn't the government have its place in you know punishing evildoers and shouldn't we at least yeah how does all that work do we just need to like sit back it's like hey we got nothing to do with that or that's a so good question yeah I see one of the things that have hurt um a a early church biblical understanding of non-resistance is pacifism and what I mean by pacifism is this idea that we should somehow vote in some sort of pacifist political agenda the bible very clearly states that there are two kingdoms and that god does not want chaos in this earth and so he governs the kingdoms of this earth and makes them to to to be kept together from the fear of the sword and so they've been given the sword we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and so these two are opposite but so when you look at Romans 13 it is very strong you're not going to end up being a pacifist a liberal pacifist and quote Romans 13 let every soul be subject to the higher powers for there is no power but of god powers that be are ordained of god who so ever therefore resisted the power resisted the ordinance of god and they that resisted shall receive to themselves damnation for rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil will thou then not be afraid of the power do that which is good and thou shall have praise of the same now here's the important verse for he that is the emperor is a minister of god to thee for good but if thou do which is evil be afraid for he bears not the sword in vain but he is a minister of god a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil the the first thing to really recognize is that we just finished Romans chapter 12. Romans chapter 12 is kind of a summary of the Sermon on the Mount where he goes in here and he talks about is therefore he ends up dearly beloved avenge not yourself but give but give placed unto wrath for it is written vengeance is mine I will repay set the Lord therefore if your enemy is hungry feed him if he's thirsty give him a drink for in doing so you will he coals of fire upon his head be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good now in this two kingdom idea this whole idea of this new way of Jesus Christ this new kingdom of Jesus what do you do with the politics of this earth I mean there's it was a natural question and so he brings out this view that God has ordained the world to be kept in check those who are not of God do not be led by the love of God and the grace of God to be kept by the fear of the sword now it's interesting who was he talking about he wasn't talking about Episcopalian from Texas or a Baptist from from Tennessee or where this little current one is he's talking about Nero one of the most wicked people whoever was it came against the church who literally lit fires up and down the road of burning Christians who came against the church they the early church called him the very antichrist but he's ordained of God to do this job the question is this just because something is ordained of God does it mean God's favor is on them is God blessed on it let's look at a couple examples so Pilate said to Jesus do you realize that I have the authority to either let you go or I have the authority to you know punish you it's interesting Jesus did not rebuke him and say you don't have any authority he said you have no authority but that which has been given to you by my father he recognized that that Pilate had given had been given the authority to kill Christ that does not make this role a blessed role it just makes it a role that God has ordained to have to do his service on this earth and let me take it a little bit further so he says here he is my minister so the question is where is that context it's interesting when we look in Jeremiah in Jeremiah we have an interesting example of Nebuchadnezzar and Nebuchadnezzar was put in power by God and God makes that very clear and he wants people to to serve Nebuchadnezzar but then later he uses Nebuchadnezzar even to bring judgment upon Judah he uses Nebuchadnezzar and look at the language he uses to talk about Nebuchadnezzar it's in found in Jeremiah chapter 25 verse 8 therefore thus set the Lord of hosts because you have not heard my voice because you have not heard my words behold I will send and take all the families of the north set the Lord and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon my servant same word my minister and will bring them against this land and against the inhabitants thereof and against these nations and brings judgment against against Judah and here's a question is he blessing him or is he just using him for his service is this a blessed state because he calls him my minister or is is it a different thing it's interesting the context tells us it's a few verses later and it shall come to pass as verse 12 when the 70 years are accomplished that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation set the Lord for their iniquity and the land of the Chaldeans and will make it a perpetual desolation and so he's using him for a clear purpose let me give you one more without hoping not going too long let me give you one more that I think is is very important for us to understand it's in the prophet Isaiah okay so here's the question that that um Isaiah 10 answers so Dean are you saying then that you could never see that God has intervened in war I mean when you look at how Hitler was stopped or Stalin was stopped or this bomb ended this I mean surely you can get the idea that that God was behind this I mean here even in Boston there's stories of the Revolutionary War that you know you can see whether it was right there exactly and more beer right over there you see those things they surely this made a difference yeah and and and Isaiah 10 is a very interesting um one to look at so this time it's the Assyrians being the ministers of God this time he calls him his rod his particular use his use and he says oh Assyrian the rod of mine anger that you're his staff and the staff in their hand and it's my indignation I will send him against a hypocritical nation and against the people of my wrath and I will give a charge to take the spoil and to take the pray and to tread them down like the mire of the streets so he's bringing them again to judge his own people mm but pay attention to the next verse however he meaneth not so he doesn't know what he's doing neither does his heart think so but in his heart is to destroy and to cut off nations but a few and so he's saying I'm going to use the Assyrians they're going to accomplish this purpose for me but they don't even know what they're doing in their mind they're just taking over nations and taking over countries but I have a sovereign reason why I'm using him but just because God uses you does that mean you're blessed no therefore it shall come to pass that when the Lord has performed his whole work upon Mount Zion and on Jerusalem I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks for he saith by the strength of my hands have I done it and by my wisdom for I am prudent and I have removed the bounds of the people and have robbed their treasures and I've put down he's done all these terrible things he makes it clear in his principle Romans 13 principle God rules the earth and he has two kingdoms those who have been given the the the ministry of reconciliation and grace from God and those who have been given the sword and we want to make sure that clear the understanding of two kingdoms is there we're anabaptist today when they don't understand this you hear them saying things that I I wonder do you even understand non-resistance do you even understand the two kingdoms when we would give our support to these these different kingdoms and different politics and and so I think if I'm understanding you right so in the case of say Roman 13 Romans 13 Paul doesn't say y'all all need to rebel and burn this down until we can put a Christian emperor he doesn't say that and we should actually pray for them we should actually support them we should do what we can to bless them but clearly our kingdom is not of this world Jesus if my kingdom were of this world well then my servants would fight but now my kingdom is not from here Jesus when they would use the term Jesus is Lord it was a political statement I've been to Ephesus I've been to Ephesus and still on the wall you can read it it's it's right there in Latin and it's almost looks like English where it's it talks about Caesar being Lord and and you can see this and so when they said Jesus is Lord they meant it it's not just some spiritual language it should be the same for the kingdom of God King Jesus King Jesus so so we're looking at the misguided allegiance where we're saying okay we're gonna side with whatever political party or we're gonna get involved with certain countries you know policies so that's kind of the negative pull out the positive what's the positive side of this vision what is our place as Christians where we can help with societal issues and turmoil and things what should we be doing instead of maybe voting in your yeah this this is an excellent point you know if all we're doing is setting on our farms and setting in America and enjoying people going over to Iraq and getting us killing people to get us or whatever doing different military things to get us low oil prices and helping our capitalistic society if all we're doing is setting and enjoying those things and do nothing that it's not right it's not right those people are risking their lives for those things what are we doing and so you're right on I was just reading today John Howard Yoder has a great statement on this idea of non-violence and non-resistance and he said it's a funny word he said imagine if we were to define marriage with nothing but negative terms in other words if we called marriage non-adultery he said so he said it should have a positive and active force to it and that's exactly what the kingdom should be here at Sattler College we're even doing a thing called restorative justice programs where we're wanting to go to the place of danger to the place of conflict and give a Jesus example you had Pablo Yoder and we had him up here wow recently and there's a man a hero who has has been there and lived this restorative justice living the places where conflict happened we need to be more and more in that we're also doing things where we're getting involved with human trafficking and such so so finding that is absolutely needed and being and being the change and making the difference instead of trying to vote things we should exist as a kingdom of God with the prophetic voice to be able to speak to this and to make a a difference Tony Campos tells a an interesting story and I was when I was in Greece we had to leave for a while and go to Bulgaria and I was in Sofia Bulgaria and as we were there there's this interesting credible story that happened there in Sofia Bulgaria and this is a perfect example of what you're talking about all these Eastern you know European countries really were involved with sipping off Jews to the concentration camps Bulgaria has the best record and you look to find out why and is an incredible story is that when it came time the Bulgari had fallen to the Nazis and the party where it was involved with it when it came time that literally the train came to bring in the thousands and thousands of Jews that were going to take them to Auschwitz and take them away to the concentration camps this tall bishop bishop Creole comes up with over a thousand according to the story over a thousand of the Orthodox people came in and came into there and he came the machine guns were pointing right to him he walked right past the guard pushed the machine gun away and stood up and the people came around and encircled the Jewish people that were about to get on the train and then as the the Nazis were sitting there wanting to know what happened he raises his hand and he says and he quotes from Ruth your people shall be my people your God shall be my God where you go we will go and as he quoted that the the Nazis didn't know what to do people were laying in front of the train to stop it and finally the the Nazis got the call forget it go back and they left without the Nazis and never did they come in and have a mass deportation in Bulgaria like all the rest of the countries that is active kingdom building non-resistance and that's the kind of thing we should be thinking instead of looking to the politics and looking to the things that we're thinking that's going to have the answer Jesus has the answer and the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing for us who are being saved it is the power of God and this theology of martyrdom this active work of the cross I think is the kind of change that we should really try to propagate so basically if we would take the literally countless hours and millions and millions of dollars that conservative Christianity putting in the political realm and actually do that well what you're saying with this restorative justice think of think of what actually could be done with that it's amazing amazing and how much more lasting fruit it would be instead of just making a mockery of ourselves to the whole earth I'm sure people have objections so so the next question is then what what do you say to someone who says well because you're not voting then therefore you are you are part of the problem for not bringing solutions to these evils that we see in America today yeah exactly and this is where this is where I would say that just being passive deserves that rebuke I would say that you got it coming if you're really just enjoying American liberties and and all that it is to be an American then yeah you got it coming but this is why I think we should be actively involved in going to the place of conflict being the church to this place not seeing just this border of United States as being our our little world but being kingdom Christians and taking this and making the difference and then I think we'll have something to say back just start thinking beyond ourselves beyond our own in the country I guess you could say or whatever yeah get a global perspective you know when I was in Germany we when I was there you know here we were in uniform we we this is back before you you're in the middle when I'm in the army years ago this is you know back 30 years ago or whatever and I was a soldier in the army my wife was in there we lived off base even uh there in the community and we spoke English we didn't speak German we wore American clothes in those days we voted in American elections and we paid American taxes in our mind there wasn't a a sense of you know getting involved in the politics of of the country and and Germany and we were Americans this is the way it should be with us in the kingdom of God we are the kingdom Christians living in these different countries scattered around the whole earth you know when you go to an American embassy I'm sure you've been to embassies on all your travels it's like a little America right I mean literally that's considered like the rights of the country of America these little embassies you're supposed to have kind of like a little American flavor there we should be like embassies we should be the kingdom of God that this is as john d martin likes to say we should show the whole world what the whole world should look like if it would follow the king that's the church and so as we go out with our church planting and we go out with our restorative justice and we go out with our different things these are the purposes to bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ to bring them the cure for humanity from Jesus Christ as the church um and really see that literally as a kingdom and stop just spiritualizing it but truly see our president and our king as um as Jesus Christ is there anything else you would like to look quick you know it's funny you know I moved to Boston here and um right down here at the at the at the the building on the corner a state building a state building there's a painting in there by john elliot he was the first translator of the bible in America a native american bible that he translated and it's interesting um he became very popular here in boston and I started I should read about him and hear about his missionary endeavors and everything I bumped into something really fascinating that has to do with it that at that time they were just changing over from the Oliver Cromwell and then later on the Charles II and the different things and the kings and and he was really getting upset by all this the parliament and the kings and everything and he writes this letter rebuking england and saying we need to let Jesus Christ be head of the nation don't come to the throne give it to Jesus let's follow christ and everything it was the very first document that was banned in our country he had to get all the copies he was in a lot of trouble he had to burn everything and it was and that's hilarious google it it's a very kingdom focused wait what year is this this is 1645 50 I have to check the exact date 100 years before the founding of America then so I guess I'm guessing the British king didn't like that very much yeah so it was an incredible document but when people read the Bible and you really get into it and you start to understand how the Bible makes one message throughout the whole thing and you see about the people of God and the blessing of Abraham to bless the whole earth and you read about the prophets and the coming of Jesus Christ and the coming of the kingdom and you get to Jesus you realize wow I'm a part of that and I went and when people get a hold of that from different backgrounds and different things it's exciting we don't need to trade that for American politics or any other politics it's a beautiful message and I and I think we should propagate that yeah God's word on its own amen it can hold its own it's fine wow thank you so much for sharing especially some of your your personal experiences and stories that that really helps I really appreciate that