 Good morning everyone and welcome to our conversation around institutionalizing public interest technology. My name is I'll be moderating the session My name is has a Mahmood. I'm the director of data solutions at the Patrick J. McGovern foundation where I lead a team of Data scientists engineers product managers to build and deploy data and AI products for the social good sector So in many ways, it's very similar to the work the great work that many of you are doing within PID So as we think about public interest technology and a lot of the conversations we had over the last Day feels like it's been a few days, but over the last 24 hours We want to think about the next natural question really comes to me at least I'm sure for many of you is how do we ensure? Sustainability of this right. How do we institutionalize this to make sure that the long-term? Institutional support will continue to provide the impact That this brings to our communities and the collaborative outcomes That it brings as well specifically to marginalized and minority communities and so we have here, you know a group of incredible leaders That will walk us how they through how they've developed institutional support within You know their organizations some of the challenges they've had to navigate As well as how they built relationships and activated resources on the campuses or within their organizations So to start us off maybe as or maybe you can start us off with just I mean each of you if you could give a little introduction But also just a glimpse or some of the highlights of how you've institutionalized Public interest technology in your campuses or on your great organization. So Thank you, it's great to be here and it's great to share At least the narrative of the story at BU So I was lucky because the way pets was created is came organically Because of the University thinking about its strategic plan 2030. It's called BU 2030 So there was a realization that computing and data sciences are permitting every field and Transforming if not already transformed these fields as well as professions. So if we want to make impact on society That you we can think of computing and data sciences as a catalyst for that impact And the question was what is the best way to have a catalyst for Compute for impact Based on computing and data sciences University put together a task force the task force came back and says Here is what you should do You should not You should not assign this to any existing unit because it has to be university-wide So you should create an academic unit unlike any other that Cross-cuts all the others and Here's the other piece they said and It has to have a different culture because it has to be interdisciplinary It has to be focused on impact. So it's very important to give it autonomy Which means give it faculty lines allowed to develop its own programs and Most importantly be free from the street jackets of the disciplines from when it from what it comes That's how CDS was created Now I mentioned the strategic plan the strategic plan had for BU had a number of pillars One of them is research that matters. It's interesting, right? So what is the priority research that matters? That matters for who for society That's pit if you think about it, but delivered through multiple disciplines now with an investment like what BU has done you are sitting in the result of that is Investment it's big building and all the faculty and all that It was important to support the other pillars of the strategic plan plan, which were what? vibrant academic experiences diversity equity and inclusion and Community so if you just think about these words that is public interest technology So this is how it happened at BU. I was very lucky that it came organically And you know maybe I'll stop here. Yeah. No, thank you very much. Meena That is an amazing story and I wish I could say that we had a task force that put this together So my name is me in a show and I lead the United States Digital Service Which is a team right now of about 200 public interest technologists Attached to the White House and we deploy in small interdisciplinary teams including product managers designers engineers data scientists Procurement experts and folks who are experts in government Implementation and we deploy across the federal government to help agencies and occasionally states build and deploy technology in thoughtful reasonable user-centered equitable and modern ways so really helping Agencies and helping up-level technology implementation across the federal government, but through actual implementation programs We are just had our ninth birthday. So building institutional support has been an exercise of practice And actual work every single year working with agencies delivering results and having agencies continue to See what their peers are accomplishing and realize that they in fact want to be able to accomplish that as well You know unlike a tidy task force that that put for such amazing recommendations The impetus for creating this entity Came out of a crisis. So one thing we often say In government is never waste a crisis crises are a real impetus for action and The crisis that sort of helped catalyze the creation of the US Digital Service was the failure of healthcare gov and the recognition that one like healthcare gov had built into a Policy objective a technology platform as you all know and as We've just discussed Technology underpins Everything we do today all of implementation all of the work That companies organizations do anything that requires thinking or in transacting with people Technology underlies that and so healthcare the Affordable Care Act recognized that built it in but then the failure of implementation and technology really ran the risk of scuttling a huge policy objective and so starting to Recognize that you need to have not only expertise in Writing and deploying policy which is words on a page But also in writing and deploying everything that enables that as an integrated part of the program Was sort of the genesis of the creation of us. Yes at the time We were very small kind of a startup and over the last nine years Through performance through building relationships We have grown as you see and you know some of that is Congress Funding but we continue every single week to have more demand for the work that we do Then there is capacity for across our team, so You'll hear me say it later, but we are always Hiring one of the other things that we have taken on though in recent times to talk about institutionalization is we Are working with a number of agencies that have begun the journey worked with us to say You should build into your budget and your personnel planning How are you going to take on this work and carry it forward over the next decades? And so we're working with them on how to do both subject matter expert and equitable hiring practices working with them to understand what Flexibility there is in the hiring and and where to go looking for Experts in public interest technology and technologists who fit the bill So we are expanding not only our organization But working with a wide array of agencies across the federal government to expand their capabilities in these regards as well So wonderful to be here very excited for the discussion Thank you I'm Dave Gustin and I'm at Arizona State University And I have two parts of my title that I will use to describe some of the institutionalization pit at ASU part of my title is Founding director emeritus because I'm no longer the director of ASU school for the future of innovation society and This is a school that was created in 2015 a little bit before the conversations around public interest technology began But is part of a set of academic conversations around the Governance of emerging technologies around responsible innovation around science technology and society or science and technology studies that have been part of the academy for several decades and the school at ASU emerged from a excuse me from mostly a set of research activities that have gone on initially Sponsored at Columbia University where ASU's president Michael Crow had previously been Around a research center that he had created called the Center for science policy and outcomes whose motto then as now is Rethinking the role of science in society that center That center Ended up at ASU when president crow when Michael Crow ended up at ASU and at that time in his inaugural address at ASU set out a vision for a new American University that was very much after the vision of the Land-grant universities that were set up in the moral act that we heard a bit about Yesterday ASU was not the land-grant institution in the state of Arizona alas our neighbors down the 10 and Tucson are but Crow in His scholarship as a science policy scholar Recognize the virtue of that kind of model and began ways of institutionalizing that at ASU including Articulating a set of design aspirations for a new American University that have use inspired research intellectual fusion global engagement and so on at their heart That Allowed us to compete successfully for a large award from the National Science Foundation To look at the governance of emerging nanotechnologies in particular under the National Nanotechnology Initiative when that initiative Wound down when that research center that I directed wound down My colleagues and I went to Mike and said well Can you keep our cost share going for a little bit more and that's one of the major? Lessons of institutionalization cost share from the center Because so we can figure out what what we do next Mike said I know what you're gonna do next you're gonna create this school so yes Mike yes Mike we created a school for the future of innovation in society and We have collected now Something just short of 55 faculty members. That's not all FTE's but 55 faculty members in a tenure granting school At the university that represent more than 40 disciplines and six non-phd Preparations and we are sort of the beating heart of interdisciplinarity at ASU Second so we have that opportunity to work in this interdisciplinary pit space around this intellectual tradition that has gone on for decades The second part of my title is as associate vice provost for discovery engagement and outcomes at our Julianne Wrigley global futures laboratory and the global futures laboratory is now a university-wide structure the word where the word laboratory is meant to describe a Scale of operation that aspires to national laboratory size think Sandhya think Los Alamos and so on we have 700 affiliated faculty across The university in the global futures laboratory And the mission of the global futures lab Measures up with what we've heard about human thriving is basically about allowing humans to thrive on a changing planet and so we now have a university-wide apparatus to think about these issues and In the role that I have as associate vice provost It's basically my and my staff's Chore to begin to make this university within the university function along those aspirations Thank you. Dr. Irwin. Can you share a little bit from your end? Thank you for joining us virtually as well. Yes, we can So Organizational unit with international science foundation directly for technology in terms of partnerships or TNP tip for short And you know, I think that when I think about tip As some of you who I know already really had some conversation over the last year or two Well, we'll know I think about a lot of what we're trying to do is very much aligned with PIT and very much aligned with sort of trying to figure out how we can institutionalize that both here at NSF But then also more generally at the myriad organizations universities, community colleges, technical schools As well as industry and others who we support we touch all across the country too So from our perspective, you know, this is a story that's a little bit both bottom-up and top-down as well bottom-up in the sense that even prior to the establishment of this redirect About a year and a half ago. One of the first things that we One of the things that we did actually led by a different director that I worked in at the time computer Information Science and Engineering Director was to really try to be responsive to what we were seeing in the community Research community as well as the interception between the research community and the general public Around some of the challenges that cities and communities all across this country with us That you know, we heard from the community broadly the rain workshops and news And that led us to a realization that there was an opportunity for us to really invest in what we call the time of smart Connected communities or later the civic innovation challenge But invest in activities that allow us to be able to really bring researchers together with practitioners together with Residents in cities and communities to really better understand the challenges that they face on the day-to-day basis whether it be in terms of water in terms of Transportation in terms of health care and so forth and based off of those challenges really take an approach that allows us to through socio-technical Pursuits not just technology, but really bringing technology together with Society and a better understanding of behavioral science and so forth and other kinds of drivers To really developing approaches that address those challenges, but in a way that that that does so with sort of the Responsible attributes designed in So that's an investment that Through that bottom of power of the community really speaking broadly computer scientists social scientists Systems engineers and others really speaking broadly about the opportunity space that we saw a gap in we were able to create these Investments and over time we've sustained those investments And I think the proof has been in the pudding in terms of the projects that we have funded and how they have Transforming the impact of communities across the particular So that's sort of a bottom up Perhaps perspective and then the bookside is sort of pop cap And that's where I think the tip directorate Really comes at the point so about three four years ago. It's something you know there were senators in Congress who Felt very strongly about some of the competitiveness challenges technology competitiveness challenges in particular that we've faced and we continue to face today vis-a-vis other nations Other countries around the world That the level of investment that we were seeing in AI in quantum and biotechnology in variety of technology You know, were we keeping pace with the levels of investments that we were seeing other nations Or into these areas as well And so they they drafted legislation that initially called for holding the agency federal government Several several efforts and conversations and bits and starts I would say that some of you know But ultimately a couple of years later That legislation and some of that was primed not just by technology Propheticness in those areas, but also the semiconductor and supply chain issues that we were facing really primes to Say okay, we're going to pass legislation the chips and science act and among other things It's going to offer as a new director that really takes on this mentor address helping to address helping to sort of accelerate addressing some of our technology competition issues But we're furthering that as well if you read the legislation you read the statute around the tip director It's not just about technology for technology But it also acknowledges the many societal and economic challenges that we face from climate to clean energy Critical infrastructure and so forth and it also further acknowledges to a large degree The fact that to be able to do all of this work to be able to do this acceleration We need to do a much better job of engaging the full and diverse population exists all across the country You know, a lot of our investments have tended to concentrate on the coasts in big cities and big R1 institutions, but there is Talent everywhere and this is my boss who used to be a day as you I said multiple times in the past You know, it's incumbent upon us to create opportunity everywhere and to really seize upon the innovation potential that exists anywhere in this country And so I think that those factors from a top-down perspective together with our own thinking the director's thinking the teams thinking here perhaps also Conversations that we had with the community think all of that really led to sort of a vision for the tip to record Which is one where you know, we want to foster regional innovation particularly in parts of the country that Could benefit from additional investment. There's there's talent there. There's opportunity space there There's sort of expertise set, but there's been historically less investment or under investment that that Investment by NSF could allow for that to really be turbine charge But also at the same time doing it in a way that ensures that the technology that we're enabling this is is You sort of baked into the design for the start regardless the safety and security the Responsibility attributes more generally into those technologies. In fact as part of the statute one of the things that Congress required us to think about is What are the sort of How do you think about these technologies in the public interest products? Essentially codified without using those terms we codified in the statute for us And so when we think about the programs and we think about the investments and we think about how do we institutionalize this We think about it from the very start of conceptualizing the investment that we might want to pursue a program Continue that work might want to pursue How do we bring the right sets of stakeholders to the table to have that dialogue about how this investment is going to ultimately be in the public interest Could be for a particular reason Yeah, no, thank you everyone for that. Um and building on what you said about bringing stakeholders to the table And maybe david you could kick us off with this one. Um, what are some of the incentives that institutional leaders? Um Commit like why would they want to commit significant resources to pit and what are those incentives that you found were successful in your situation yeah, so At asu, which is a very large public institution That is committed to student access and student success Um students are front and center in that conversation about the the value of pit And the school for the future of innovation society um taking advantage of the beginning of p u n and taking advantage of those opportunities that I Described in my opening remarks created a Online master of science degree in public interest technology. That was sort of the first to market Pit degree and one of the challenges that we're facing right now is that in this giant public institution um Pit is still trying to find its way as a field and as a connection for students to recognize that there is You know something at the end the career trajectory the career path and so on and so for example the the work that The network has begun to do around career affairs and things like that is crucially important work a second uh element that allows us to to connect and and create incentives for folks are the Large beginning to be larger scale opportunities that uh the technology innovation partnerships directorate at nsf and other provisions say in the chips and science act that were alluded to that the national science foundation has to um address The ethical and societal considerations of all the work that it funds Um and put together a plan by say 10 months from now. I think is what the legislation said Which really says that not just that uh p is have to change but the universities have to change And so in response to that mandate that comes out of the chips and science act um We are now you know sort of authorized to operate at a university-wide level to think about adding intellectual capacity That reflects this interdisciplinary pit that reflects the synthesis of values and science and technology In order to secure our future opportunities with 10 to 15 percent of our entire research portfolio And that's crucially important similar to that the uh justice 40 initiatives that we've also seen in the biden administration Playing out through uh rnd programs in the department of energy and environmental protection agency and elsewhere Creates the opportunity the incentive the necessity for universities to respond in ways that think about Engaging with publics in deep ways to deliver those Results so those are I think the two most important aspects. Yeah, no, thank you for that And I mean I mean as far as the usds is concerned Not obviously academic, but I mean what what are those incentives that you look for? The the framing of the question is really interesting So I'm going to say how it has played out and also to tee up some research questions. I think for all the institutions here Um The incentives are different for all of the different parties at play. So I will say for Technologists who are interested in public interest and many of the folks who come to work for us got their starting technology 10 to 15 years ago When we didn't use those terms, but it you know It's folks who have a background in technology and are excited about it They already feel like this is an incredible Incredibly meaningful way to contribute. So for example, we're on track to get 8 000 applications this year We will hire about 3 of those So there's a ton of appetite to come and do meaningful work and to use their technology skills in that way In a place where they're highly leveraged. So there's that appeal in terms of like impacts to end users and the people on the front lines who are Touching end users. There's also just a tremendous amount of support You know, we've done work over the last decade to help improve access to services for veterans Trust ratings at the va are now 20 higher than they were nine years ago And it is not completely due to technology but you know We have completely revamped the way that Their front door and their website works how veterans are able to navigate services and access information about where their claims are The team they're launched built a large public interest technology team inside the va They launched a mobile app last year that has almost five stars and over 80 000 reviews So it's an over a million users. So it's an incredibly like Appealing user experience for end users and the people who are servicing those end users on the front lines Experience that every single day, right? People are less frustrated. They have a better job Um, similarly, you know, we're working with the social security administration We help them relaunch their front door and are helping rebuild their call center Um, we're working with refugees. We're working You know, we get to jump in on crises like when there was an infant formula crisis in all of these scenarios Everyone on the front lines Sees and understands the impact viscerally and in their everyday interactions And we all know that all of these demographics are used to having terrible interactions with government Based on a lot of paper forms, right? So you can see the delta and there's a lot of It's it's appealing and it builds trust and it builds and it starts to change expectations about what we Can and should expect from our federal and from our government services at every level Um, so I think those incentives, you know, actually changing outcomes and lives One of the interesting questions is like at that higher level strategic and budgeting layer the incentives um I think you all study this more than me and I and I I'm excited to be here everyone else in my family is a professor And I am not so this is a true honor And and an aspiration for me, um, but the the model of accountability and oversight in government Is not about achieving specific outcomes and being held accountable to outcomes But it is very much an oversight model, right? There are, um i g's there is congressional oversight The way that we try and hold Services accountable is not the same way that incentives are set up In the context of like an organization that receives its funding based on how well it serves user needs And so I think there's some really interesting user There's some really interesting research topics in that and I would deep like I get inbound all the time on what should we Offer as technical assistance to the hill. What should we say about how do we drive forward on customer experience legislation? Or how do we set up the incentives differently? It would be incredibly helpful to have more insight and more research in that area and what How the structure of sort of oversight and accountability as it's set up across different levels in different places in government How that really affects The way because it's it right now. There are not the incentives at the budgeting and the management Layers to say, okay We need to invest in this because it will achieve the outcomes that we all seek in terms of engaging with the public Instead the incentives are how do I make sure that? um I don't end up testifying or with an ig report that says I tried to offer a service and it was not 1000 compliant with these 47 different requirements. So, um Yeah, no, thank you for them, you know As I'm curious you touched a little bit on the introduction about, you know, how you've been working on institutionalizing pit What are those key levers or mechanisms by which you did that? here at BU Yeah, so I maybe I should I should go back a little bit to say that We had all the ingredients for what we wanted to do and That helps So let me give you some examples You all heard about BU spark last yesterday and the students and all that Well, BU spark was created before The faculty of completing the sciences was done actually well before two or three years before It was created For a gift to give students experiential learning opportunities internships and all that You do this by having the students work on real projects That are sourced from let's say the city of Boston or nonprofits So that piece was there What else we had amazing collaboration between very distant fields Uh computer science and law We have scholars in both and they're our top scholars. They're the name professors who are doing it So they're already doing this. They were collaborating on things to do with regulatory questions Legal questions of new technology Across the board What else Every department is already signed to think about well, how do I deal with computation and data? How do I teach my students that? so I have to start with this because When you make an investment as big as what BU has made in computing and data sciences You really have to think about the entire university cannot just do that for one department And if you think about it Every department benefits from this so here and here's another level that everyone is Will stand to gain from this investment and that's very important and Let's talk about the administrative side. So so from from the perspective of The board of trustees or the president. Why is this important? Well, actually, this is a great story for BU if you think about it For fundraising for Signaling to The world that this is how BU is betting on the future Right, so so these are the levers that really Help cds be what it is today No, thank you for that azer Everyone a question for you in regards to when we think about like, what is that stake here if we don't take steps towards institutionalizing public interest technology Whether from your perspective within the NSF or more broadly in the industry So, so I mean, I think that's a large extent What's at stake is is the continued separation between the technology that we're developing and that we are enabling and the society that needs Uses that technology, right? And I think that It it essentially creates a mismatch And it also perpetuates some of the some of the challenges that we are seeing way there Of course in the last several four years With some of these emerging technologies as well. You think about AI we think about fairly enough pain points that we've seen So there are lots of positives Generative AI there are lots of Benefits associated with GANs and so forth, but then there are also many pain points that we have observed Whether it be deep fakes or would be misinformation, disinformation and so forth And so I think that by not really engendering And AI is one of these people right you can imagine similar challenges and pain points and worries in the biotechnology space too You know, I don't want to just focus on my computer science college too too much So I think that you know across the spectrum You see that and you see sort of this this growing divide between Why we are pursuing these technologies and and and how they can be helpful to society If you don't really take that into Start and I think I'll say a couple things that sort of if I can that sort of get to some of the other questions that you pose To the other panelists this morning already You know when we conceptualized the tip director one of the things that we said the outset was You know NSF for a long has done a lot a lot of good by virtue of the investments that we make to faculty at universities great ideas great Thought leaders great students and and we've been pushed some of those New capabilities new discoveries new technologies out into the market But what we are trying to stand for a tip is really bringing the users the consumers the beneficiaries of that research to the table to help shape and motivate that research from the start And I think that that's the glue of co-design and co-creation Where you have both twirling of their states and working together Is what really ultimately enables that Symbiosis between these technologies and what were the original societal needs and use cases that motivated and in general the pursuit of those technologies And so I think that's really what's at the core of this in my mind um, and then I will also say you talk a little bit about incentives You know, I'll give you three incentives if I can just real quick That you think are consistent with what you heard maybe build on what we've heard a little bit as well One is talent You know, one of the things that I hear from faculty like azar and others You know post pandemic a lot of our early career talent that's going into classrooms that's going into science and technology engineering mathematics stem fields They're going into those fields because they saw what stem could do during the course of the pandemic to mitigate Some of the worst pain points of that of that and They feel that there's not to for them to now be able to engage and pursue technologies on their own To help address these societal challenges that we face today and economic challenges to helping find ways to be able to Allow folks to move up the economic ladder in different parts of our country and all around the world without that And so I think that you know one of the incentives has to be The people who are coming into the stem enterprise the research and innovation enterprise the technology development enterprise I think those folks are craving for more efforts along these lines The other is you know, let's go back to first principles about what we've always strived for the innovation ecosystem in our nation You know, there was a time I think when universities were seen as the Beacon of the Hill they were seen as the as the They were seen as the as the As the as the resource for their community for their region to be able to tackle some of the challenges in the community The community and region in which they are located and in which they effectively serve Um, I think that's still true. I don't want to pay the broad brush and suggest that we we moved completely away from that But I think there needs to be sort of a resurgence of that to some extent Um, and then finally the third one is obviously You know, there's there's always funding in it. I'm a funding agency. So I can't not mention funding But you know being able to put dollars to efforts such as this I think that's critical if we want to think about what are the incentives that motivate leaders to be able to Really institutionalize this for five Thank you so much everyone for that. Um, unfortunately, we're getting close to the end of our time here Thank you to all the panelists, but we did want to open it up for any questions from The audience. I'm not sure if there's Yes, we have a question Thank you very much. I'm an academic and my incentive is to publish Where do I publish pit research? A couple of excellent places two of which have their editorial homes at Arizona State University if I might the Journal of Responsible Innovation Which is um Which of which I was the founding editor-in-chief My colleague Eric Fisher is now the editor-in-chief and it's uh, the number one ranked Journal in the history and philosophy of science as of last year. I don't know what this year's impacts Ranking is and then my colleague katina michael Who we share with um one of our schools of engineering and the school for the future of innovation society Is the editor-in-chief of IEEE's new flagship technology and society Proceedings and that comes out of One of the earlier versions of the not quite flagship level of IEEE publications And they have done special issues around pit And then there are depending on which Science or technology you're affiliated with often relatively or significantly high quality blank and society journals That will publish uh pit activities as well Um if I may first of all, thank you for the question As somebody who is getting a unit with faculty to be tenured. I have to think about this So I'll I'll give two answers first direct answer to your question pit to me is Is a field of fields. It's not one thing, right? So it's like when you talk about the social sciences We don't have a department of social sciences. We have a whole bunch of departments that are social science departments So if we think about pit that way then within pit you have academic communities starting to form Next april will host in this space An acm cs law conference. It's the fourth one publication venue some of the most senior people are in it There are journals coming out along these lines So so I will look at at the leadership of the interdisciplinary field That you're working on to do this now the second part of my answer is not a direct answer to your question but You're thinking about publication because that's important for tenure when you create a unit Where the focus is on impact on society Then tenure should be based on the impact you make I said it's very Great. I thought I was doing something wrong So So and this is why one reason when I said we have to create a unit Outside the existing structures is because we get the opportunity to rewrite what tenure means right, so That's the other piece is that I believe that if pit becomes a field and it is Then slowly it will happen universities are very slow What counts as impact will start changing so in in in my world when we rewrote the tenure Of course publication are important citation are important But also is is what you develop being used did it change a policy Did it is there a piece of software that you have done is that data that you came up with We want to count this as a matter of fact We even said something else if you collaborated with somebody and they are the ones who got all the Benefits of your technology and you're a third author there They couldn't have done it without you That's a contribution. So so I think I think that's actually the bigger question is is how can we now shift academia to recognize impact as opposed to adding to the body of knowledge this goes back to my Let's make the ivory towers into a public square Thank you so much as our Unfortunately, we are at time. I wanted to thank all the panelists if we could give them a round of applause But thank you again for for joining us today