 You know, as an explorer, sometimes I feel a little bit down to earth when I speak of the profitability coming from the technologies which protect the environment. Because as an explorer, I should do something much more philosophical. I should say nature is beautiful, life is magical on this planet. We have a miracle of this blue planet floating in the universe. Okay, but if you say that, the problem is that it doesn't change anything to the world. It doesn't change the business leaders who are going for profit. It doesn't change the politicians who go for job creation in order to be reelected. So basically you speak of the miracle of life, but it doesn't change human nature. So I tried to also be an explorer in the way I address these issues and find other ways to do, other ways to think, other ways to act. And this is also the task of an explorer. And what I found is that it is much more efficient to speak about how to earn more money and create more jobs by being cleaner, more efficient and better protecting the environment. So it's a very down to earth message, but the result is very effective. Very effective because people listen. My guest today is a living legend and making historic round the world trips that have come to redefine what is possible for humanity. serial explorer psychiatrist and ambassador for clean technologies. Dr Bertrand Picard has done it all and is probably planning to do it all again, and ways that continue to shift paradigms and unveil the new futures that are available to us today. When Bertrand took the controls of the bright link orbiter in 1999 with his teammate Brian Jones, he went on to complete the first nonstop around the world balloon flight. So in 2016, he successfully piloted the first ever around the world solar powered flight and took turns with Andre Borsberg, and the now iconic solar impulse plane. More recently, the United Nations Goodwill Ambassador for the environment special advisor to the European Commission and founder and chairman of solar impulse foundation has been on another trip around the world. This time in pursuit of 1000 plus innovative solutions that can protect the environment in a profitable way. So it is a huge honor to welcome Bertrand on inside ideas podcast to find out more about the 1000 plus solutions and to hear about the future. He thinks is possible for people and planet Bertrand welcome to the show. Thank you, Mark. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so glad you could find the time in your busy schedule, you're out there doing amazing things for our planet and for innovation and technologies a true pioneer, a disruptor for our world. I've been passive cross a couple times just for my listeners at most of the cops we see each other when you're speaking and I'll always harass you for a selfie and try to say hi because I'm just enamored with your, your talks, your achievements and I think I've got your book, the greatest adventure right here. I've read it a couple times. It is best best seller in my household and I really love it. How you describe your generational history as explorers in your family your grandfather and and your father did some pretty amazing feats mariana trench and and something similar to the stratosphere. Is that very similar to what Felix did as well jumping from the stratosphere from a balloon. My grandfather did that was not a sports action like Felix Bongartner. It was a scientific exploration. And actually, my grandfather is the first person ever who entered into the stratosphere. And he was the first man to see the curvature of the earth with his own eyes. And that was possible because he invented the pressurized cabin, which is now used in every airplane and spacecraft. So he invented that in 1930, made the first flight in 31. And his goal was to study the cuspic rays, but also to open the way to modern aviation, showing that flying in thinner air would allow airplanes to fly faster with less gasoline less kerosene. And that was his his way to contribute to protection of the environment. Try to have air traffic more efficient and stop wasting too much gasoline as when you fly in thicker air at lower altitude. I love that. And your father did the mariana trench as well. And you was the balloon upside down. But you know, the principle of the bat escape that was invented by my grandfather is like a stratospheric balloon. You have the float. In the case of the bat escape, it is full of gasoline that makes it lighter than water. So not gasoline that you burn. Don't be afraid just to have a buoyancy lighter than water. You have a cabin that is pressurized, of course, and it goes down to the bottom of the marina trench 11 kilometers down and to go up. My father dropped some ballast and could be lighter and go back to the surface like in a balloon you drop ballast to climb. And the goal of this dive, of course, it was a historic first, but the goal was much more than that. It was to show that there was life in the deepest trenches in a period of time where the governments wanted to use the bottom of the oceans to drop the radioactive and toxic waste. And if there is nothing down there, it's maybe not as dangerous. But when my father and his colleague Don Walsh could prove that there was life, they saw some shrimps. They saw a flat fish living on the bottom. So that was the proof that there was oxygen coming from the surface because oxygen is only made at the surface by the phytoplankton. And if it reaches 11 kilometers down, it's because you have vertical currents. And vertical currents going down means vertical currents going up again in the circulation of the water. And if you have a circulation of the water, all the toxic old things you throw down there will pollute the entire ocean. So that was a big milestone for the protection of the oceans. So it's just ingrained in your family, I believe that you guys are just not not just doing explorers and these adventures, but you really want to make sure we don't destroy our planet. We don't do things that could come back to bite us and hurt us in the long run. I mean, you would think that would be common sense to there is no throw away on this planet that people wouldn't want to just dispose of things without it coming back to bite us because we're in this closed system spaceship earth that they wouldn't realize there's diatoms and calcium carbonate and other microorganisms, even if they're not like fish and shrimp that maybe can be like plankton as well that really go up that food chain and have a big huge impact. And so I thank you for sharing that story. The last time we saw each other was actually at the World Economic Forum in 2020 right after DLD and we saw each other there and maybe I'm even wrong. It was actually COP 25 in Madrid was the last time we saw each other. That's when we saw each other. And again, I got my selfie but we had a little bit of a discussion as well and you're always surrounded and doing a lot of events. That meeting was was really a difficult one. It seemed like we were getting ready to go into the decade of action and it was extended the COP 25 was extended a few days because they couldn't come to some decisions. There was this huge frustration when we left that that nothing was achieved again. And the reason I bring that up is because, one, not only in your family and generation, you've been doing this for a long time pioneer, ambassador, really talking about how we can do and use different operating models to stop human suffering and stop destroying our planet, fix the environment, use other types of clean technologies. And then, boom, we were hit with the pandemic and lockdowns and, and black lives matters and Asian racism, the inauguration craziness and, and many many other crazy things that were just really saying what's going on with our world. So, how did you weather this time this crazy time you won you you achieve the 1000 plus solutions so I know there's some positive stories but did you also see because you've applied those things into your life that you talk about that you do that you explore and are kind of surrounded by pioneers and innovators. Did you really see there's some better business models some better operating systems for life that can get us through these hard times, like a pandemic, like these black lives matters and the other nationalism that we're seeing around the world. Well, before the current crisis. The world was unfair. It was fragile. It was inefficient polluting. We were doing a lot of wrong things. It's unacceptable to have so much inequality. And why was it like this because you know, since decades, there was no war in Europe. There was no war in America and no pandemics and it was like if human beings were stronger than nature stronger than life stronger than the world. And it made human beings so arrogant. It give them the impression that they could do absolutely anything and there would be no consequence. And this pandemic is lesson of humility. It shows that human beings are vulnerable much more vulnerable. That's what they thought. And they really have to be careful. Human beings have to be careful between each other, because you can have really terrible social riots and unrest and suffering that are unacceptable. But with the environment it's the same we have to be much more careful in what we do, much more respectful. The problem is that when you say that it's a little bit of a wishful thinking. Can human beings become wise suddenly? I don't think so. I think as soon as the pandemic will be forgotten, people will go back to normal behavior. And this is why we really need the opportunity of this pandemic to see which would be the common interest of the world to change a couple of things. And the billions of dollars that are now flooding on the market in order to have a post-COVID recovery is maybe a way and I hope it will be to reorient the functioning of our society in a more efficient way, in a way that is cleaner, that is polluting less in a circular economy. The solutions are there. I'm sure we're going to speak about it. The solutions exist to do it. Now what we need is that the regulation and the funding will go in the direction that we need, otherwise we'll go back to the world we had before and all these crises will have been completely useless. There's actually, and I think you surmised it so well, there's actually legal frameworks out there in our world that allow corporations and cities and governments to pollute legally and incentivize for fossil fuels and many other things. That kind of brings me to a little bit bigger question right here at the beginning. I'm sorry to jump right into it. During, not just during the pandemic, but even before as you so eloquently described to us that we've been doing this for a while. We felt this unrest that our current civilization models are economic models and models anywhere in the world. They're just not working for us anymore and what I see, not only you mentioning the circular economy and there's many others out there like planetary boundaries and Donut Economics and Mariana Matsukado who we've probably seen at Davos before speaks on mission economics or mission economy as well. And there's so many different type of models out there and I think they're all moving in the same direction and hopefully they're all collaborating. But do you also feel that our current frameworks around the world, whether it's an extractive economies or these fossil fuel incentives or the bolts and arrows burning down the rainforest, that they're just not working for humanity anymore and we need to transition over to some better models, some ones that work for everyone. You know, it's not the fact that our model is suddenly not good. Human kind is using the same model since ever since ever. We always extracted goods, destroyed nature, cut the trees. You can see a eastern island how they cut all the trees and now you have no possibility of good quality of life because they have no forest anymore. They're just bringing the salt of the sea on the island. It's crazy and they were slaves, they were wars, they were crimes since centuries. But what was maybe possible with half a billion or one billion or maybe two billion people on the planet is not possible anymore with eight billion. And today it's an exponential increase of all the problems of all the suffering of all the pollution. So it's not suddenly that we have a model that doesn't work. It never worked, but it was accepted because there were not too many people on earth. Now it's not acceptable anymore because we see that with this model we destroy everything. So we have to find a new model. And when we speak of new model, it's interesting to see that if you are kind, if you have kindness for your employees, for your suppliers, for your clients, you make better business. You know, there were studies showing that we have now the Solar Impulse Foundation to prove that you can be more profitable if you bring efficient, clean technologies, renewable energies to the market. So basically we don't need to change the fact that people need a reward for what they do. But they have to get a reward that makes good instead of doing bad. And we see that today the protection of the environment can be linked to a fantastic job creation to a lot of profit for the industry, giving salaries, paying taxes, preparing the pension funds for the people who are retired. So all the social supports that the population needs, we can do it now in a way that does not destroy the environment. I'm glad you touched upon that because really, especially during this pandemic time we've seen that those companies, those organizations, those corporations that invested in sustainable index funds and environmental social governance and shifted their business models to clean tech and to care about their working conditions for their employees and those pillars that you spoke about, they all outperformed their conventional counterparts during this time in the middle of a recession, a pandemic and crisis of financial markets and all sorts of things and not just Nikki index, Nasdaq, New York Stock Exchange, but the Morningstar Review, 25 out of 28, they all outperformed their conventional counterparts, those who are not somehow doing a push towards not just sustainability but environmental social governance. And that was in the first, second and third, third and fourth quarters of 2020 and we haven't seen it slowing now it's actually on an uptick. And I'm sure you you have some really, I guess this is a different way of formulating it's a better business model to do offer planetary services and have these things ingrained in your business model because not only do your employees your customers everybody benefit from that the world is much better for it. You know, as an explorer. Sometimes I feel a little bit down to earth when I speak of the profitability coming from the technologies which protect the environment. Because as an explorer I should do something much more philosophical. I should say nature is beautiful. Life is magical on this planet. We have a miracle of this blue planet floating in the universe. Okay, but if you say that the problem is that it doesn't change anything to the world. It doesn't change the business leaders who are going for profits doesn't change the politicians who go for job creation in order to be reelected. So basically you speak of the miracle of life but it doesn't change human nature. I decided to also be an explorer in the way I address these issues and find other ways to do other ways to think other ways to act. And this is also the task of an explorer. What I found is that it is much more efficient to speak about how to earn more money and create more jobs by being cleaner, more efficient and better protecting the environment. It's a very down to earth message, but the result is very effective, very effective because people listen. Each time I was talking about protection of the environment to heads of states. They were telling me okay yes we know we have to do something but basically we cannot lose money to protect the environment we need to guarantee our, our economical growth. If you go back to them and say if you really aim for economical growth, you will earn much more if you link the GDP to the efficiency, instead of linking it to the consumption. And it starts to be a bit technical but what does it mean. It means that, until now, the GDP that means the wealth created by humankind was increasing at the same rates than pollution. At the same rate than CO2 emissions at the same rate and the depletion of natural resources. And of course you cannot continue like that because you're going to destroy everything. But you can do the opposite now. Now we have enough technologies, enough renewable energies to allow our world to be much more efficient and instead of selling more goods, we sell more efficiency. We have good technologies modernization of the infrastructure, new services. And here you make more money in the industry, and you create more jobs, but you don't pollute more, you pollute less. Because you save natural resources you save energy you, you decrease the consumption, but you increase the wealth. And I believe this is really a win-win that allows to reconcile ecology and economy. And I'm touched upon it in the beginning a little bit where, and I don't know if this ties to you being a psychiatrist and the way you, what things you've learned and that. But is there, because it's been there from the beginning, is there something like human nature, the human condition that is almost like by birth where we're set off on we have something that we're fighting against. And why it takes so long for us to click that we're come up out of this earth that we're part of a symbiotic earth that we're connected that that we can extract from our kin and our cousins and that connectedness, but not in a spiritual way or say you know the kind of how how you so eloquently said it. Is there anything through that that you've learned over time is it really something else in there. Yes, I believe human nature is not bad in itself. I don't, the vast majority of people don't want to be bad by choice. They want to advantage themselves first. People are very open to be nice to others, but as long as they can have what they want, which means that the each one is putting himself with quite short term personal interest, instead of long term interest for the others. So this is a big gap between what human being would like to be and what it is really. There are two ways to react to this. Either you want to change human nature. And you go into the wishful thinking. Human beings should be generous should be respectful. We have to educate people to think more about the others. If you take, well, I don't know how much time it will take because you have already a lot of people who tried thousands of years ago. It doesn't really change human nature. Or what you do is that you work with what human nature is. If people want to have short term personal interest, give them a short term personal interest to protect the environment, to be good to others, to be generous. And today, there are a lot of studies that show exactly this. If you are generous, you have more in return. If you are kind to people, people will work better with you. If you are cleaner and more efficient, you will earn more money. So instead of opposing what human nature is and what human nature should be, you reconcile the two. And I think this is really something people have to understand today. They start framing and act. Stop to be wishful thinking and just do with the tools that exist today. And the tools that exist today start to work. When you see that oil companies, oil producing companies, starts to disinvest from oil in order to put more into hydrogen, renewable energy, clean electricity, energy efficiency. It shows that it's a move that is going in the right direction. I totally agree. And it's beautiful because those are stranded assets and that human condition really is we trade what we want now for what we want most and I see that as well. Even though it's not in your biography or what you do, but because you're an ambassador and you're speaking to these heads of state and leaders around the world, you have this beautiful diplomacy. So you're a very great diplomat to kind of open our eyes to different possibilities and you do it through actions and things that you've done. And I think that's something that we could all use more. I don't know if you've ever felt this way when you've been at the cops before but I always get overwhelmed. It's two weeks of, you know, eight to 12 hours a day of General Assembly pavilions talks the green zone, the bullet zone, and it seems like everybody shouting their own message at the same time and it's almost impossible to make a choice. And to find a common path. And I also tie that a little bit to that human condition. Why are we competing against each other we're actually should be moving in the same direction and and then then when we don't come to any consensus or double down on what needs to be done it can be a little bit frustrating. And that leads me to my next biggest question for you is, there's this talk about global citizenry or globalization. And how would you feel or what are your views on a world without nations and borders division of humanity one from something more of this global citizenry that we have these basic inalienable rights as humanity and we're not getting down to these nationalistic perspectives and kind of competing. Once one with each other because we're all crew members on this spaceship or can you maybe give us your thoughts and feelings and what direction we will go or where we're at and how to understand that better. How would you feel if human beings were all saints. Holy people with compassion and generosity and wisdom. I wouldn't feel good at all I'd feel uncomfortable probably, but you know it's it's the same question if everybody was wise, holy and generous and respectful. You would have everything good on the earth you wouldn't need borders you would not need citizenship, people would not protect themselves against others because everybody would be nice, but it's a complete wishful thinking. Human beings are not like this. So I think it's wonderful to dream, but to dream of things you can get, not to dream of things that you cannot get and that make you frustrated, because you will always have borders. At least the way human beings are today. Maybe there will be a spiritual revelation where human beings suddenly will be enlightened and they will suddenly bring peace and destroy the borders. But until that moment, there will be borders. There will be wars, there will be pollution and the goal is to try to reduce the wars to reduce the pollution to reduce the selfishness to reduce violence, but you will not change human nature. And if you find somebody who can change human nature, please tell me I would love it, but I didn't find that until now. Yeah, I mean, there, there are some old scientists. She, she doesn't live anymore her name's Lynn Margolis. She wrote a bunch of books and she was actually Carl Sagan's first wife. She did a documentary called symbiotic earth but also wrote the micro cosmos and many other things that says that we're really connected with the biome of our earth the micro organisms and it's not wishful thinking or hocus pocus but that if the earth biome is not doing well our human biome is not doing well and that there's some connectedness there and it's based off of science and that this there is no neoliberalism neo Darwinism you know survival of the fittest natural selection only the strong survive that it's more of a planet of cooperation and collaboration. And that I really feel that, you know, air, water species are all global citizens they can all cross borders, the pandemic was a global citizen, and, and some decisions on these political or these national levels are our decisions are our bad systems that are affecting us clear across the world and we're not even a citizen of those nations and so that's kind of my terminology of, you know, how are you going to realize that we're eventually all crew members on this space at birth and in kin, but but I like how you answered it and I want to get away from that wishful thinking because I think you can wish in one hand and you can have some action and the other and one hand you have some action and hopefully positive results and the other hand, there's a there's an empty wish. Look, I met a lot of heads of states, a lot of business leaders, but even if they feel that they are crew members of the same spaceship earth and so on. And these guys, they want to be reelected. They want to pay the salaries of their employees. They want to pay dividends to the shareholders. And they are not going to sacrifice this to feel that their passengers of the spaceship or everybody should be nice and treated equally. They're going to to buy it in order to to gain as much money as they can. And this you will not change. So, my, my way of understanding the situation is to bring to these people enough ways to gain money enough ways to pay salaries to create jobs to be reelected if it's a politician enough ways but to protect the environment and not destroying it, making good instead of making bad ways to to to go in the good direction, even if the personal interest of the person is maybe a bit selfish or very much selfish. I think you can reconcile the two. And this is all the work I'm doing now. I've been looking at technological solutions that can protect the environment, because we absolutely need to save our future on earth, but at the same time the solutions have to be profitable and create jobs. And in the beginning, no, there was a big suspense. I thought, is it possible or not. Because basically you have ecological solutions. You are not necessarily profitable. You have industrial products that make a lot of profits, but maybe they kill the environment. So how can you make the, the intersection between the two. How can you protect the environment and are profitable. And if this exists, then you haven't, then you have a possible answer. And for four years I was looking for that. A lot of people telling me it's impossible you, you will never do it. You either have to be ecological and fight against the industry, or being the industry and destroy the environment. So we can do both. And the 13th of April of this year, 2021, we passed the goal of 1000 solutions. We have now 1100. And they are technologies, systems, products, materials, processes, programs, sources of energy, that really protect the environment in the field of water, energy, mobility, construction, agriculture, industry, all these SDGs, they can be reached, but in a profitable way. And, and this was my bet. And now we have them these solutions. And the goal is to bring them massively to the key decision makers. And I want to tell them it's not just because it's ecological, it's also logical. It makes economical sense. And you will earn more money now if you protect the environment than if you destroy it. And this is really what I'm working on, because I don't want at the end of my life to look backward and say, I was wishful thinking I was waiting human nature to be better. I was hoping the planet would be a paradise for everybody and be disappointed. I hate these wishful thinking dreams. So I want to really do something that changes the situation. And maybe I will look back at my life and I will say, okay, maybe it was an important contribution, maybe it was not enough, but at least it made a part of it. I love that about you. And there's, you're in good company. So Paul Hawkin with his drawdown. He also says, you know, I want to be a noun. I want to solve and have the solutions and have the things I don't want to wish and I'm not very relying upon hope. And congratulations on your 1000 plus achievement. I looked at the website just before we started the podcast and was I believe 1151 something around there so it's climbing and growing. And you have some fabulous tools on the website where you can go through and pick the SDG that you like and see which how it's linked to certain solutions and efficiencies, you've come up with almost kind of a brand of efficiency label for each of those solutions and tons of support to get them up to scale and I absolutely love it that that's the direction we're going. There was another book released just during the pandemic as well. I don't know if you know, Mark C Jacobson 100% clean renewable energy and the storage for everything. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's amazing because now here. Okay, this is how we've done it in the past. This is what's here. Let's show there are other ways there are other solutions. And what I really like is the support your foundation gives not just with the tools and the branding and help but you want to see them get to scale and change the infrastructure. Tell us a little bit more about what you're excited about there and what are the next phases that you're moving into the next phase is to bring these solutions to business leaders and heads of states to give them the tools to reach their environmental pledges because you have so many who now are obliged to say we want to be carbon neutral in the future. Okay, wonderful. How do they do it? What's the roadmap? And they have no idea. They have no idea. So I want to give them the way to do it because today, you know, you can be so much more efficient in energy in terms of natural resources, food, waste, each time technologies make you more profitable. So basically you go from a world where the infrastructures are losing a lot of wealth. 75% of the energy used in the world or produced in the world is lost. You know, half of the food, 95% of the waste. So that's, that's the old world. Now you have to turn it into a world where you produce enough energy with renewable sources and to allow this to happen, you need to save energy because it's ridiculous to produce 100% of the energy we have today with renewable sources and keep on waste, wasting and losing so much energy because of the inefficiency. So maybe you can divide by two, the consumption of energy and you only need to have 50% of renewable energy and it will be absolutely carbon neutral, no more fuel, no more fossil energy, but no more waste, no more inefficiency. And you do that for everything. And I came to a conclusion where the people will be ready to do it. If you have a modernization of the legal framework, because today it's allowed to pollute, you can put as much CO2 as you want in the atmosphere, there's no limit. So a lot of companies are telling you what we do is legal. It's legal, it's allowed. So we need to make it illegal to make it forbidden. And if you do that in a legal framework, it will pull by necessity all the solutions to the market, all the new solutions, it will oblige people to use renewable energy. It will oblige people to be efficient. It will oblige people to recite all the ways to go into a renewable circular economy, I mean. And the good news is that it pays for itself. So there is no excuse today for inaction. The more you wait, the less you will earn money on this new process. So sorry to speak so much about money, but no, it's important. The thing that drives the economy, that drives finance and the industry. And if you tell them there are 1000 solutions now that are profitable startups ready to put their products on the market, but they need investments to grow. So they need regulation to have their products being pulled to the market, then you really have a program. It's not a wishful thinking. It is something that creates a lot of excitement. And to give you an example, we will announce end of May this year 2021, the creation of two investment funds. One with BNP Paribas, one with Rothschild in order to help all these startups to grow, to have what they need to bring their products on the market and protect the environment. So the financial world is interested by it. The industrial world is interested by it. We need to push a little bit more the governments to modernize the legal framework. So all these new type of technologies will really be used by everybody. I know there's 1151 as of today, but are there, and without doing too much favoritism, are there some that you're just saying, these have wowed me inspired Mary, these are really game changers we haven't seen before, and have the opportunity to make huge impacts or does not work like that. It works exactly like that. You're absolutely right Mark. And I give you an example. What do you see coming out of the chimney of a factory since centuries. You two greenhouse gases, yeah. And greenhouse gas. Who notices that in the chimney you have heat that is lost. But it's the fact, the factories are losing the heat through the chimney. Well, there are several companies who have the label of the solid parts foundation who found ways to recover this heat to store it and to give it back to the factory. The company who sells this system makes profits and create jobs. The company who buys the product saves energy and has a lower energy bill at the end of the month. That's the type of win win that I love. There's another nice example it's a software that you installed on your car. It's called the we now. It analyzes the CO2 emitted by the car and gives you another way to drive. It shows you when you can accelerate or when you have to decelerate in order to save your gasoline. If you put this on a fleet of a big company or the vehicles of the company, it is up to 1717% of fuel saving. It's enormous. You have the way to optimize the flight of the airplanes in order to reduce fuel consumption in the air. You have processes with constant decent approach where the airplane instead of flying like this and ends up gear down full flaps full power wasting energy. It just lights down like the space shuttle for landing with engines idle for a jumbo jet. It is one ton of kerosene that is saved at every landing. All these type of things they exist. They just have to be implemented. Why, why aren't we implementing them faster is because we don't know they existed or what's the hesitation that we didn't make that transition are we still holding on to the last bits of fossil fuels and the old industrial Revolution. Why haven't we jumped into those a lot sooner. Four years ago I did not know they existed. And it took me four years to see that there are 1151 of these solutions and probably there are still another great lot of them elsewhere that we haven't found yet. So for people who are dealing with their habits, with their beliefs, with their routine, it's very difficult to see what exists that would make their business better. So it's our task to promote it to speak about it. It's our task to bring it in the media to speak about it that economical forums, industrial forums, innovation forums, political gathering. No, President Emmanuel Macron asked me to speak at the G7 in front of the other heads of states about these type of things. This is I believe the important leverage. I love that is there. So I mean you've done you've said and demonstrated that today's challenge is not technology but psychology, and that it's about these mindsets. So I think we should be properly, besides showing them the thousand solutions and speaking about it, go about changing those international local and national mindsets of of the delegates that diplomats the what's the best way to do that. Give them an advantage to change and show them they will win more if they change than if they don't change. They will have more money. They will have more advantage. They will have more power, you know, even for the oil producing countries. They are afraid. They are really afraid to lose their wealth. But if you show them that the world is now demanding a lot of hydrogen and hydrogen can be made with solar cells in very warm countries that are currently producing oil. This is a diversification that can help them to survive. Otherwise they will die and they will fight against all the climate regulations. It's like this everywhere. You have a company called total producing oil in France. It's very interesting to see that they have now called themselves total energy. They want to reduce their part of oil in order to increase the part of electricity, hydrogen renewable energy, energy efficiency. But this is something logical. They know that if they want to survive, they have to do that and we have to help them to do it. We basically have to make an alliance with all the people who would like to change and we need to help them to change. We've had a lot of learning lessons in just in the past four years, but in all your adventures that have kind of shown that you hit some roadblocks that people tell you, oh no, that's impossible. How is your wisdom that you give to your thousand plus solutions and to others that you need to deal with people to say, find those people who don't know that it's not impossible. Yes, you know the impossible does not exist in the reality. The impossible exists in the mindset of the people who are sticking to old ways of thinking. And they believe with their learning with their experience of the past, that something is impossible. But if you learn how to change the paradigm, change the way of thinking, then you open completely new opportunities that will allow you to make something possible. And you know, it's exactly like the first airplane. The first airplane was made out of wooden cloth in 1903. Which means that the Egyptians could have flown from the top of their pyramids 5000 years ago. But they did not do it because they believed that it was prohibited by the gods by the mythology. And in the beginning of the 20th century, you had some explorers who said we don't care about these old rules. We don't have any acquisition anymore. The church is not going to burn us if we break the paradigms and the dogmas and they started to fly. So it shows really that, you know, if you want to innovate, it's not a question of having new ideas. If you want to innovate, it's a question of getting rid of old beliefs. And then you have the mind and the heart empty enough to welcome something new. And you don't have this filter that always tell you everything is impossible. You are just empty enough to welcome what is new, and you take it and you see how you can use it. And that's how you can be really, really progressive, innovative, inventive and successful. So many new things, besides what you've already told us about that are kind of on the horizon. I've heard heard a little bit that you've kind of compared your financial measurement of the 1000 solutions to some other things that are emerging or out there on in the industry that kind of say how can we change this mindset. Are there any other tools that we can look forward on your website. And I guess the biggest question, you're not going to start turning people away are you going to continue collecting more solutions or you say we've capped out at 1000 or no no no no no we, we have proven that it works. So now we welcome all the other solutions, they will have to submit their file. We give them to our bunch of experts. We have a group between 350 and 420 experts depending when, and they assess the solutions. And that's how we can give the label. So we continue. And there are several things that are very promising, but they cannot have the label today because they are not yet profitable. For example, carbon capture. You have a company in Zurich that I admire very much it's called the Climeworks. They do a great job. They can absorb CO2 from the air to be fantastic for the future but you need a price of carbon of roughly 200 euros, $200 per ton of CO2 to make it profitable. Otherwise they have to turn on subsidies and not profit. So it doesn't go in our, in our assessment criteria. So we cannot take them but as soon as they manage to reduce the price of their operations and their machines, and that we maybe have a price of carbon that has that is increasing with the two curves will will hit each other and then we can give the label and I'm really looking forward to it because it's a it's technology. I have four more questions for you. Only one hard one really. It is the burning question. WTF and no it's not the swear word that we've all been thinking about this last crazy times that we've experienced, but it's what's the futures and you're so good at setting the vision and capturing the pioneers and innovators and letting them know that you want to make solutions for you. What's the futures. Well the futures, you have several different futures. One is that you do nothing that we continue like we have done in the past. And we will have a miserable quality of life on this planet with a return of tropical disease in warm in a sorry in temperate countries like Europe or North America. For example, tropical disease, typhoons, droughts, floods, millions of climate refugees. Well, it will really make life difficult, and a lot of people will suffer, or, or we take it as a fantastic challenge. We need to start to implement the new solutions, implement the new technologies, become more efficient, make an alliance with industry, finance, economy, politics, in order to bring on the market everything we need to save resources, save energy, go into circular and it pays for itself, it's profitable, and we'll have a good quality of life. And now the question is, which one are we going to choose. And sometimes I am a big pessimistic when I see the type of decisions that we take because it takes far too much time to decide the right thing. Although we have all the solutions that allow us to decide today. The biggest thing that really touched my heart that you that you've said was when you were in solar impulse, and you spoke live to Ban Ki-moon on the signing of the Paris Agreement, and that was to a smaller group, not the full assembly, but it was so it just touched me it was not only was a historical moment that you made it was a historical moment that the world was making. You know what diplomats and politicians and delegates and how law how hard it is to let alone to agree on where they're going to eat lunch or what they're going to agree around, let alone 197 I believe it was that came together and agreed and and signed the agreement that as a historical president is the world's first moonshot the global earth shot. That's a historical date for humanity, and you were from the cockpit making history yourself on that day. I just, I'm at awe with you and I appreciate your inspiration to get down and put the actions into into reality to start being a pioneer start to innovate start to do those things, and that the support will come and that's also why I said you're going to get because to do the adventures you've done you've had to deal with countries and politicians all around the world and everybody's probably telling you a different thing or that's not possible don't go here you can't do this. And you're like how am I ever going to get this done and so you've been there you've done it and and and for me I really would like to get some wisdom for my listeners. How do they deal with those frustrations without giving up what hope can you give them to say hey, that's just how the world works but but be persistent. Don't give up you know, give us a little inspiration what's led you through besides your, your father and your grandfather being great examples to help you through these hard times. I understood that I had to push hard. It took me two years to get the overflight permission from China to fly with my balloon. And I knew that without having this permission they would never be able to fly around the world in the balloon. So you need to be persistent, very persistent. And today, we need to push the decision makers to take the right decisions. And we all have a power for that. When the children go in the streets for the climate strike for climate Friday for climate and things like that. It's very useful. They don't they don't bring solutions. They are wishful thinking they believe that you can just change all the economical system and the world will be okay no it's not like this. But nevertheless, they are pushing in the right direction. And for for example in Switzerland you have some cantons some states of Switzerland, which declared the climate emergency, because there were strikes of children in the streets. And it is useful. Now the media, the media have to do their part, because the politicians will take the decisions according to the support they have in the media in order to be reelected. So the media have to push the media are not here just to give to make a debate between the one percent of climate deniers and the 99% of people who know that climate is climate is changing. That's not the role of the media. The media have to be really proactive and show the solutions, the processors, the mindset we need. They have to push also. And of course, what we need also is to have business leaders who push. We have partners was supporting the Solar Impulse Foundation, and twice once one last year and one this year, we did a manifesto where these business leaders were committing to ask the governments to have more ambitious regulations for climate and environment. And why do they accept to do that. They accept because there are two things that they cannot afford in business. It is unpredictability and distortion of competitivity. And today, everything is uncertain. You don't know where to invest. And if you have the one who are pioneers and invest in the good direction, maybe it will be disadvantage for them in the competitivity with others. So this is why the business leaders now are starting to ask for clear regulations. Are we going to go into electric mobility? Yes or no? If yes, they're going to invest. If no, they will not invest. Are we going into recycling of waste instead of exporting the waste to China? If yes, then we will make an industry about waste management. You know, and there are so many decisions like this that can guarantee the transition to the ecology and energy revolution. I love that. If there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life. What would it be your message? It would be look at all the resources you use, all the things you have in your hands, everything you produce, consume and throw away. Look at it as if the price was one million times more expensive. And then suddenly you understand what it means to be respectful. When you are brushing your teeth, why do you leave the tap open and losing water? If it is a million dollars per liter, you would not do that. So why do you do it because it is cheap? Ridiculous, you are just wasting resources. Why do you put air conditioning at 15 degrees Celsius? When everybody is freezing, you put it at 25 degrees Celsius, it's far enough. And you save 50% of the energy that you were wasting before. Just look at all the consequences of your actions. And then you will start to be efficient. You will start to be respectful. And you will maybe also invest in a new heating system in an insulation for your house or for your office that will allow you to waste less energy. You will have LED light bulbs that are 95% efficient instead of the incandescent light bulb that is 5% efficient. You have all this even as an individual level. You can do a lot. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact? And I guess I have a sub question of that as well. Are there places that are still left to be explored? Are there adventures still to be taken? Are there still things that we need to really discover and do? I think there has been a lot of things done today with a lot of pollution. Let's try to do it again with no pollution. With renewable energies, with clean technologies. This is what I wanted to do with solar impulse. Solar impulse is not the first airplane that could fly, but it was the first airplane that could fly with no fuel day and night. So it's like a new cycle that is starting. And we can do that everywhere. I love that. This is the last question. What have you experienced or learned and your journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start? I said, boy, I'd been decades ahead or I wish I knew this in the beginning. I don't know, but if you know in advance, it's not exploration anymore. I love that. Bertrand, I'm so thankful for your time. I thank you for letting us inside of your ideas. You're so wise and such a great diplomat and I'm on baited breath following what you're doing. But I'll tell you as well, a lot of my listeners and I, you're going to see some more solutions coming your way because I definitely want to take more actions than I currently am to make sure that we make this transition and create that beautiful world that we want for all of us. And let's have hope because the frustration coming from the failure of the international negotiations is now pushing local actors to do much more. Regions, cities instead of continents, corporations individually instead of all the industry worldwide. So the failure of the top down is probably preparing the success to the bottom up. I agree. Thank you so much. And if there's anything else you want to tell us before I say goodbye, that's all I have for you today. Thank you, Mark. It was really nice to see you again and that I hope all your listeners will see how they can use new technologies to be more efficient to be more profitable to be cleaner to protect the environment and contribute to the also the global wealth of this world that is allowing people to have more health, more comfort, more safety than centuries ago. So progress is good, but we need to progress that is keen and efficient. And the adventure today is to contribute to it and we're all in the same adventure. And I hope your listeners will feel even more empowered to contribute. So thank you Mark for this invitation. Thank you so much Bertrand. Have a wonderful day. I'll see you soon. With pleasure. Bye bye.