 is being required. Which recording is preventing recording? I brought preventing recording again. You know what, let's just do this. Well, I think the recording can be found through YouTube and LinkedIn. We can find recordings later on, I assume. Let me refresh my, okay, okay. If you can see it live on LinkedIn, YouTube, let's know. It's still streaming, it's still streaming, so let me go to, this is crazy. Jonathan, let's do this, sorry. So I think, let me, I think the link itself is weird. Sorry, you know, let's do this. Coming from here, we have... Something's coming through on LinkedIn with a delay. I'm just checking on it. Is still, is still on LinkedIn right now? Can people hear us through LinkedIn? And can you hear me like, is Vito Vito working? Yeah, it's coming with a bit of a delay because I just scratched my neck and I saw it on the screen. Look everybody, it's us, we're here. We're here, okay, slow down. So, just wanna record is, oh, you know what, let me have my phone to record. I think your side is, so, slow down. So, Jonathan, are you sure on LinkedIn? I couldn't see LinkedIn through. Something going through right now. Yeah, I'm not, I can't state for a fact, but it seems to be on some sort of delay, things I am doing or showing up on LinkedIn. So, people on LinkedIn, can you see us live right now? Come on the chat. Okay, come on the chat. Can you see us live or not? Because I'm not able to see it. Then, sorry about this, hey guys, something to record, I record. So, for people on LinkedIn, come on the chat, chat, you see us a lot. I stopped at four minutes something. All right, so here's YouTube, and let's see what the delay is to showing me holding up my phone. There we go, we're on a delay, but we're on YouTube, somehow. Okay, I came from, are we on LinkedIn? On my, and on my, and it's not, the comment is not popping on it. Anyone else have the still possible, someone see post video? Here's the LinkedIn version. Yep, that's pretty quick. You see, let's put the phone down. Cool, so we are live on LinkedIn. Looks like it. Let's see if the phone comes back. Okay, perfect, maybe, maybe, I think we've streamed twice on LinkedIn. I think, I think here's what's going on one sec. I think YouTube restarted it, and LinkedIn streaming twice, but anyway, so let's continue, I'm gonna use my phone to record it. This is very embarrassing. It was working last time. It's all good, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Okay, cool, we live, so let me do this. Join, join, do live. Okay, okay, everybody, we are live. Okay, great audio is audible as it was, the other one was like, so there were two. Let's see what's going on, yeah. Wait, we're gonna make it work. Okay, okay, cool, it's clean. There's an echo, there's an echo. Is there an echo? People comment, and then the record, and it does record and post videos. Okay, great, cool, we're gonna do post process. At the same time, let me do this. Let me use phone to record on my side, just in case. Okay, cool, we're getting started. The voice is echoing. My voice is echoing? I'm not hearing an echo, I'm okay. Okay, there's an echo, you're reading an echo, I hear okay as well. Okay, so here's what I plan to do, hey guys, sorry. There's like, we couldn't record, but we're gonna, we're gonna put it later on, but I'm very, very excited. That's Jonathan, the call was, but Jonathan's side is being recorded, I believe. Your side is recording, recording voice is not, so that's why recording right now, right now. Okay, great, cool, okay, let's get started, sorry. Anyway, it's always tech, tech issue. You know what, we're all managing tech company. We're just solved the problem next time, hey guys. All right, let's do this, let me do the one minute count timers, actually 30 cents. Let's do, so we'll get started, so people will know we're officially starting now. There's a share screen, 30 seconds. Okay, hey guys, this is the start and see, let me stop this. This one right now, I believe everybody can hear, hey, welcome to Proc Insiderator today, so you guys have a special guest, Jonathan Ballak, here with us, an exact presentation. Hello, Jonathan, how are you? Hi, it's good to be here today. Great to have you, and here is what we are going to do today and I know we have lots of audience on both LinkedIn and also YouTube, and if you're here, please comment on the chat, say hi, because we're facing some technology issue and now we want to see if everybody can actually join us. And here, how are you? We spent a lot of time inviting our guest, Jonathan, to share with us his unique insider knowledge and he had been working for Google for almost 15 years but he started his career there from a start-up out of college in the dot-com boom, boom in Prada and all the way to go. It has so much experience, sharing with you big tech companies like was a career growth, and if you're interested, I can share you a lot of knowledge about start-up because Curry, he's starting his own company as a partner management company and he's going with you from his insight and help helping other companies and to their product perspective as well. Oh, great, cool. All right, so quick introduction regarding what it is for Insider Paka, what we are doing right now. So, hey guys, I am Dr. Nian C.D.D. I'm passionate about all things product, career growth and nonprofit on a mission to help you create amazing product that impacts millions of people's lives while getting the work-life balance you deserve. Welcome to Product Insider. Shall I wait from the real talk? No, covering everything from imposter syndrome, people management and various facing leaders of tomorrow and we are joined by fan-level leaders to get low down on what's hot right now. And I'm your host, Dr. Nian C.D.D. I moved to the U.S. with $800 in my pocket and became a director of product in four years. Now I run Product Management Accelerator. So this is a made product management careers accessible to one. Are you a world-class product insider? Okay, hey, awesome way to have a view, John. Hey, John Johnson, can you quickly introduce yourself? Yeah, I mean, you did a great job of it, Nancy. I was sort of lucky in life to come out of college right into the dot-com boom and have spent almost 30 years in the internet industry, building websites back when that was what the cool kids did all the way through to business school and NYU and quite a while at DoubleClick and then Google doing digital advertising technology and then shifting over to focus on trying to combat abuse and help make people safer online. And I decided to leave Google at the beginning of this year and I'm currently advising startups and other companies on how to be a more effective product-led organization. This is awesome, John Johnson, and so excited to have you on our podcast today. And especially we're going to talk about the executive presentation. So lots of people are very confused regarding executive presentation because they think, oh, it's too far out. Sounds like for executives and it's a new into the issues that focus on their presentation page not. Can you give us an overview of this? It is the presentation, John. Yeah, so when I talk about this, it is to a degree focused on something that's very common in these large technology companies like that, you know, refer to as the fangs, the sort of the metas and Googles and so forth where you have these layers of management and you have people who are relatively senior, whether their title is director or senior director or vice president who are responsible for broad areas. They may be leading a product used by hundreds of millions or even over a billion people. Huge amounts of money could be at stake. And there you need to basically explain what the heck you're doing to them periodically in order to get their buy-in, get their help, make sure that they're not surprised by things. And that's a very, very common thing in any organization. You're always transmitting information between teams, between layers and so forth. So there are a lot of different versions of this, but that's what this is a little bit focused on is sort of you've got the big high stakes meeting with somebody important. Cool. Hey, John, let's dive deeper a little bit. Well, you mentioned, hey, when you present to executives they may not get what you want. And that pushes through and imagine large corporation like Google may be working there for 15 years. There's experience, there's many different kind of executive men. Can you work on regarding what types, exactly environment for them? Yeah. So I was lucky enough to go from things that were comparatively small to things that were really pretty enormous. So during my advertising career, when DoubleClick was independent, I was basically with only one or two other people, a very small product team leading the sort of publisher advertising server reporting directly to a head of product who reported to the CEO. And then when we were purchased by Google, that group grew pretty dramatically so that my own team was pretty large and there were more layers all the way up to sort of the senior vice president of the entire Google advertising business who would have input to things. I've also been involved when I worked at Jigsaw, it was a very small group of only about 50 or 60 people inside of Google. So it was this unusual thing where there weren't a lot of layers but the layer we did have would sometimes be like the head of Google's legal team. And really, really senior executives responsible for an enormous amount of stuff who are kindly making their sort of time available. And then finally, when I was doing counter abuse technology, this was a horizontal team. We were a central group trying to help lots of different Google products. So then I would be talking to executives from all over the company that weren't part of the same reporting chain but had their own areas of responsibility. Sounds very broad to executives you have went through. Can you give us the examples? You've been earlier saying, hey, getting excited, you could buy in and it's very challenging. For example, so why is challenging? And so how many times need to propose your new ideas to executives? Yeah, so there's kind of two things in there. The how many times is interesting because that can vary a lot by organization. I mentioned that jigsaw was sort of a short circuit up to really senior leadership. In advertising in Google, because the group was so big, you'd often be saying, okay, well, if I was a director, I might have to present something to a senior director and then they would be on board and then we would go to the vice president to present it to them and then maybe a group of vice presidents and then maybe the senior vice president. I would sometimes joke at its worst. It would feel like you had to present 10 times proving you weren't making a mistake before you could do anything. Now that's a bit of an exaggeration. Yeah, the assess rebound process. So, how round and how long? I wouldn't even think of it as just excessive process. When you're in a large organization, think of it like a human brain. You're full of neurons in your brain that have to transmit information to each other to get you to be like, oh, wait, I just put something too hot in my mouth. I better get it out or I want to write something. There's this whole transmission because you're a big complicated thing. If we were little flatworms with like 100 or 1,000 neurons, you can get the message through a whole lot quicker. So, you don't necessarily need as much of the overhead if you're in a startup of 40 or 50 people because you can kind of get together and figure it out. The only thing I would say is you're always transmitting information, especially as a product manager where you're almost never fully in authority over everybody that you're working on. You live or die by your ability to communicate effectively with people, whether it's like flatworm size or brain size. Yeah, so let me dive deeper a little bit. Can you give us a specific example regarding what size of the tick do you act to exit prison prison and as we push to VP director, director, CEO level? Is this about one fish inch or is more of a strategy, a strategy, a role map to AI? So you need to push all the way to Sundar's level. So this is where to your point about personalities. It's really important to understand who your leadership is and how they operate. Some leaders might be very hands off and they don't wanna hear about little details. They only want a big update on really big important decisions because they're really busy doing other things. There are other leaders that wanna know the details and want to interrogate everything really, really deeply. So I think that's a key skill in an effective executive presentation is remembering and trying to understand who you are speaking to and with and understanding what they want, how they work, what their personal style is. You're not going into these things to communicate your own material. You're not performing a play on stage. You're not singing in a concert. This is not the AERUS tour. You're not there to be awesome and have everybody recognize it. You need to understand who is this person in the room and what are they looking for and how do you adapt what you're doing not to hide the truth. You wanna be telling the truth and getting your point across. But everybody has a different communication style and you need to understand your leadership in order for it to work well. Yeah, yeah. I think examples of communication style are actually leading to outcome or miscommunications. Yeah, I've got one story and I hope the people involved are either not on this or don't remember it. Probably the most clear example of this I ever saw. It was actually still at DoubleClick and the CEO at DoubleClick is a brilliant guy. He's leading a company called First Nibs right now. The head of product is now leading YouTube. These are some people that, you know, we were a smaller organization but incredibly talented people and a product manager had to give an update. This product manager style was meticulous detail and that worked well when they were doing things. They would be incredibly detailed. They would wanna go through everything. They would write incredibly long memos and do all the analysis incredibly well. So this product manager had good skills but they showed up to a review meeting. Effectively, they probably had 15 minutes to talk and they showed up with like an hour of material and they wanted to go through everything in excruciating detail building up to their point. Now, that's one thing and that can happen sometimes. You think you've got an hour and then the executive's busy and you've gotta squeeze it into a half an hour. Those kinds of things happen and you need to be ready. What this product manager was not able to do was to adjust course live. And so this product manager was going on and on and on and you could see the leaders in the room being like, okay, I think we get it. Can we move on now, please? Like, hey, what's going on? And this person couldn't deviate from their script and he sort of watched these really talented leaders go from like giving feedback to getting impatient to, I mean, this was a long time ago, like pulling out their blackberries and being like, okay, I got something else to do. And this product manager never had the opportunity to get in the room with them again. And if you notice, none of this has anything to do with the quality of the recommendation. This wasn't like the person was wrong or they had a bad idea. It was just a case of they didn't think through how to give their idea or their message the best possible chance to land and be influential and help the company succeed. And that story just, A, it was kind of sad in the moment. And it's always like this person might have had a different career if they had been able to adjust course. So I assume he was demoted on in a company? No, I mean, like things don't really work that directly. And you wouldn't wanna work in a company where like giving a bad presentation meant you got fired on a day. Like that's not cool. I would not want that. But I think what it does is it affects your ability to do further change. And part of this is when you talk about executives, sort of my model, and I think you used it in the promo, it sounds mean, but it's kind of true is your default should be think of an executive as busy, suspicious and distractible. And the thing to remember to be sympathetic is they are enormously over committed. As busy as you think you are in your job, remember that these executives are responsible for lots of people like you and lots of projects. They've got tons of stuff on their mind and you don't know what. So when they show up to a meeting, your mental model should be, assume they're trying to figure out why am I here and how quickly can I get out of it? Not because they don't like you or they don't care, but they've got this laundry list of other things I gotta do. This suspicious, and the suspicious part, I think it goes to this point about what happens, they can't be an expert on everything. If you're a good leader, even when you become a manager, you realize very quickly, I can't know everything that my team knows because there's no time. That's why I have a team. If you could do it yourself, you wouldn't need a team. Which means as an executive, if you have hundreds or thousands of people that are part of your organization or billions of dollars, billions of users, you can't know everything. So you have to get really good at trying to figure out if the person talking to you knows what they're talking about. So executives get really good at looking for weak points, inconsistencies, hey, wait, this person doesn't seem to be listening as a proxy for should I trust this person? Since I can't personally double check their work. I see, so sounds like executive presentation has a lot to do with your personality, how you deliver the message. And a little bit less about the messaging itself. Let's do the percentage. What percentage would you put based on the words, the messaging, and how you say it, and how slow you say it? Yeah, so the good news is, I don't think it's about your personality in like a deep sense of who you are. This is a learnable skill. It's like a lot of things, some things are very much talent-driven, a lot of things are learnable skills. So the good news for those of you in the audience is you can learn this and you can improve on it. More what I'm focusing on when I'm talking about this is because we're talking about presentations, it brings your skills in communicating information to the fore. If your underlying ideas are terrible, you could do a great job of presenting and communicating them. But if you haven't thought it through and you haven't thought it through with rigor, you're gonna still run into challenges. This is sort of that suspicious angle that I'm talking about again. Like I'll give you another common mistake people will make. People have so many ideas as a product manager. And if you're a good product manager, you have more good ideas than you have time for. Because you've already gotten rid of the bad ones and you know you've got brilliant ideas. And you know you've got limited time with this leader. There's always this temptation to stick that one extra bullet point in with that one really cool idea. You haven't quite figured it all out but you think it's really neat and I'm gonna impress the heck out of, you know, Judy, the vice president and she's gonna give me a bunch of people and I'm gonna get promoted, it's gonna be great. Part of this suspicious is in my experience, executives have a laser focused sixth sense for finding the thing you haven't thought through. And that's what they'll ask questions about. Hold it, have you done the financial modeling on this? You're saying this, what about this other thing? And suddenly this goes to the distractible. Executives don't know what you're there to talk about and they're under no obligation to let you finish. Like they can interrupt you. There was one VP that I loved working for as part of her team. She was famous for, you would go into a 45 minute review and you might never leave the first slide with the executive summary. Cause she was brilliant and she would read it and be like, okay, I think I understand it. What about this? What about that? What about this implication? And you might have that later in your deck but it's not there. That's why I do like the way Amazon has evolved to handle this. They have people write these six page documents and everybody reads the entire document for 10 or 15 minutes before the meeting starts. Google doesn't do that very much but I got to try it a few times. That's a nice way to try to make sure people get through everything but it would be the same thing even if it was a written document. You're gonna add that one paragraph with your one half baked idea and that's what people are gonna zoom in on. So the way I tend to put it is your best executive presentations. The metaphor is think like a cannonball. You're like a very tightly packed set of impact. So it's maximum impact, minimum surface area. You don't wanna have a lot of unnecessary stuff or things that you haven't thought through and you're ready to back up and defend. So the content does matter. It's just how you deliver it is a way to give your good content the best possible chance of landing. This is crazy. Hold on. I really love what you just mentioned regarding it's a no obligation finish of the talk at all. They can stop you on rice one and especially see holes like fish net. There's a hole. Oh my goodness. I'm gonna dig in. Even before you get a chance to really finish the key concept you wanna deliver which is in size 10, but you're on size one. So you're just getting killed by now. Yeah, we're gonna share the link. I've got a deck version of this that everybody can read through and you'll see in there my model for doing this is the most important slide if it's a slide or the first part of a document if it's a document is that executive summary. And you want to make sure you're telling your entire story. You're making your entire update. You're making your ask for resources. Whatever the reason you're there should come across clearly in a very short amount of space and words. That's another thing people will do. They'll write these decks that are like I'm gonna tell you a story and it's gonna lead to a good outcome. It's just very hard to assume that busy suspicious distractable people are going to slow down and wait. So you wanna spend your time. I learned this because I did a bunch of journalism in high school and college. This is the classic way you write articles in newspapers. You have a lead which is the first paragraph which if it's the only thing you read in the article you should get the point. And then you add supporting material as you go. That's the way I recommend people write their documents or build their decks start at the beginning. The pro tip is that also saves you a lot of time. Because you haven't gone in and created 20 slides before you know what your message is. You spend your time getting the story right and then the slides are just supporting information for that or the rest of the six page document is hey, I'm gonna deep dive into explaining why the executive summary says what it does. And then if you get derailed it's all there on the first part. But first part cannot shush everything and the executor should dig in. Like I mentioned earlier, oh my gosh, what have you done there? This means that you're going to two A slides should have backup slides just in case they did that again. Yeah, and that's where this is what you can do well the flip side of the suspicious when you do have good backup information for what you're asserting. You're like, hey, here's the data analysis that backs me up or hey, we went through and we analyzed four options about what we can do. And this is why we make option three is gonna make us the most money with the least risk. That's a positive indicator for the executive wait this person has done their homework. So you kind of nailed it when I would do these at Google you take your executive summary and maybe it's got like five or six bullet points and I will freely admit my slides were notorious, they were super wordy because I was trying to communicate information. If we were talking about doing a keynote address for 500 people, it would be a completely different strategy but in this your information transfer say you've got five bullet points on your executive summary. Okay, well your deck should have five slides which literally could repeat the headline from the executive summary. Here's the supporting information. Maybe you need two or three slides to get the point across but it's like it's mechanical of sort of, hey, we are here today to get approval to launch an exciting new ice cream product. Okay, what's the, you know and then the executive summary is gonna say like the market for ice cream is large and growing quickly. So then your supporting slide is the market for ice cream is large and growing quickly with a chart with your source data that proves the size of the market and the up into the right that it's growing quickly. You're like telling you what I'm gonna tell you now I'm telling it to you and then at the end I'm telling you what I just told you. Love it, just like the sandwich method with some of the meat in the middle and then towards the end another summary again. So Johnson you give a little bit easier regarding what the first slice look like. Can you give a specific example using any of your past product or project as an example you can remove any confidential information. Let's say for that thing if you wanna build exact presentation what should you put on the exact size? The first product. Yeah, so I've gotta make it a little bit generic because as you said there's confidentiality things. So the example is there was a product I was responsible for and it had a particular strategy of how to deliver value to our customers. We really wanted our customers to use our product as their main way of doing things and the customers figured out a different way to implement our product in a way that wasn't what we had designed it for and it was sort of a surprise and there were a lot of people in the company that were like well we don't think this is the way they should do we should just turn it off just like don't let them do it and that I was like I was very much driven by consumer value I had to think what the customers were doing was not good but I recognized that they were seeing something good from it and we realized we needed to do something. So the presentation that we had the executive summary was like okay hi why are we here? We're here because we work on this product which is this big with this much revenue on this growth rates. There is a new trend called Foo that people in this market are using that Foo is being adopted very very quickly. If we do not come up with a good way to help customers with the problem that Foo is solving our product may become less valuable. We have analyzed like 10 different possible responses to Foo and we are looking for your approval to start testing on I don't know option six of 10. And that was the executive summary so it was like reminder who the heck are we because you're really busy you don't remember who we are. There's a trend you don't know about there is data that demonstrates that this is a trend that matters. And we have done our homework about what to do about it and we are asking permission to move forward with one of the options. And the result we got was the executives were like okay here are concerns go start testing out option six but come back and check in with us before you launch anything. So we went back later and then we're like okay we've been testing option six. The momentum of Foo is continuing you know option six is good but it's not enough we came up with like a six plus plus that's going to make six even better. And now we're looking for your approval to like really invest seriously and making six really super good. This is so those are the cut that's like an example and there are a lot of other ways to do it but you know that that was probably one of the times when this model helped because it was also all these meetings were like very emotional because people had very strong opinions about Foo. And so I was there to get a result because the other risk you run into if you're not clear anybody who's been at a big company knows what it's like you go to one of these executive meetings and there's a big discussion and everybody's like well that was really useful but we want to see 12 more things or you've given me a lot to think about I'm going to have to get back to you later. Which means if your presentation wasn't very fully sought out you might lead into a more work and the next meeting and next next next next meeting it will happen. Yeah that's like another classic mistake is when people show up with a bunch of slides and they haven't really figured out what their story and message is. And again the work could be great the thinking could be good but it's just this kind of meandering thing where you're not coming out and clearly explaining like this is what I want to do and this is why. This is crazy. Hey those kind of mistakes actually happen in companies like Google you know people are looking for Google probably are the best product managers people in the world and pay them half million dollars at least. So do people in Google make those kind of mistakes? Yes absolutely everybody does. Well I mean we're humans it's sort of like you know you can get kind of funny it's like we're not machines. Yeah you know AI is not that good but you know we're all sub optimal processing units and when you you know you chain a bunch of them together you improve your overall fault tolerance but the individual units are still sub optimal processing and you know it's it's it's tricky. Interesting. Hey think of AI. Now we even in my company we've been trying to use this AI to even write some social content hey guys if you know any of the content you've been through AI let me know also our LinkedIn, YouTube and Instagram but through exact presentation regarding what to put on the slice and then how to turn something into exact summary. Have you thought using AI with LGBT or BART to help with the exact presentation is working on it? I have not. My general feedback on things like this is maybe it can help you get started but you still have to review and own the material as a person. Makes sense. Yes especially when we try our AI we find something very very interesting. The ideation started was great great some of the video content was generated by it by it. However we started to execute we realized that the tone, the AI write script of YouTube YouTube presentation or YouTube video stuff sounds like dark night city doesn't sound like me anymore but to us it's more of inspiration. Cool. So let's really crimson more authentic to us. Awesome to hear from your perspective regarding how giving advice is how to use it only for inspiration. Yeah I totally agree. Awesome. Hey Jonathan you mentioned something about Amazon writing six pages of summary. Totally speaking I think this is overkill to the extreme writing down everything ahead of the time because that can lead into inefficiency as well. So what do you think the balance should be and especially say you try it out the Amazon style? Is this do you think is better than just doing presentation or not? I think they both can be valuable I don't think one is permanently better than the other. I would say what I liked about the written form is written communication is different in terms of the structure and the thought process you have to go through. You have to be able to sort of formulate an argument and structure a set of communications and then be able to sort of back it up so it uses a different part of your brain. With slides I think the benefit is it can be very efficient because you don't have to use like full sentences and you can get points across and you can sort of lead with like really good data that can be very communicative. The risk I think with the slides is you can end up creating a lot of just like junk slides you know like this is a bullet, this is another bullet. I think I made a point I'm moving on. It doesn't add up and you do run into that sequencing problem of people are interrupting you to ask a question that you're going to answer in four slides. One of the really good practices that I always like teams that would do this and increasingly Google did this more and more by the time I was done there you have to send the deck at least 24 hours in advance. And then people at least have the opportunity to look over the material before the meeting starts whether it's a deck or a document that's the part that I think is really important. If you send it you're sort of on the honor system that people make time. I think the Amazon approach is by actually making the one hour meeting silent for 10 minutes. You're sort of forcing people to actually sit there and read it. Huh, very cool, cool, very cool. So that way to do the combination reviewing the slides or before we even get to the presentation is this is very important. Maybe out of the country I follow the same strategy. This is awesome. So now I do have confusion regarding the differences between public and exact presentation. You know for example, inside our McSever power skills program we separate like power skills programs. Hey, let me help you become a leader, get promoted, one of them we call exact presentation. But we don't call it public speaking because I truly believe there's big differences between those two. Yes. So I want you as an expert who have been through both sides probably speaking exact presentation for 15 years in different sizes companies. So what do you think is the major differences? I think it's the interactivity and the goals. So with public speaking you might have a Q and A section at the end. Yeah. But a lot of times you're going up to deliver some kind of a speech or an address or a keynote or a product launch and then you get off the stage. So it tends to be much more one way. And in terms of the goals with the public speaking you generally have a very clear sort of influence or informational goal. Like I'm here to tell you about our new product. I'm here to communicate our philosophy going forward. I'm here to help you think about some interesting new ideas. It's much more of a performance. And when you talk about these executive presentations it's basically a highly structured conversation. It's still ultimately you have somebody there you're trying to talk with and because it tends to be large rooms and there's all this kind of stuff that goes around it it has these sort of rituals and formality and their strategies that work well but your best executive presentations are highly interactive. That was always the ones I, the ones I always liked the best were the ones where the executives I was sort of there to talk with were fully engaged in the material and would ask smart questions even if they were challenging or would help think about ideas to make things better because then I knew they were engaged with the material. The ones that were always more kind of stressful is when you just kind of showed up and you're like talking at them and you're not getting any reaction. And you're always like, well, did that go well? Did that not go well? Does anybody know what's going on? That would feel a little nuts. And then they get their smartphone phones, make a laparice, this tango, and they come, something, not really achieving the purpose of the executive presentation but you're giving up a speech speaking like audience but people do not react. So that's one way to differences. I love how you make it so simple. Thank you so much. Now let's switch gears quickly. Regarding big tech, you've been working for startups all to big tech all sizes for many years, total 30 years of experience. So what do you think of the challenges of tech we're facing right now? I think that the entire sort of technology industry, and you could focus on the internet technology maybe a little bit, we're going through a societal shift that we still haven't figured out overall, whether you're talking to us in the United States or around the world, these technologies have transformed human life as much as almost anything. Like when I look for analogies, I have to go back and there's this amazing book called The Printing Revolution in Early Modern Europe, which is obviously focused on only one part of the world, but it's talking about the impact of sort of Gutenberg bringing the printing press to Europe and printing of scientific information and religious information. And it was this incredible upheaval in society that literally it was hundreds of years before society sort of settled down into knowing what it meant to have printed books and news and other sorts of things. We're grappling with that now. And 30 years ago, you could kind of show up to a tech company and just build some stuff and see what happened. And it was kind of fun and crazy. Oh, we're gonna launch a website and see what's going on. These days, so many people are online and the impact is so big. You now have ethical concerns and societal responsibility and risks and harms that just mean you need more structure. Another example would be, think about like automobiles. When people were first inventing cars, you could bring them to build something in your garage and take it out on the road. These days, even a disruptive car company has to pass inspections and has to be considered street worthy and so forth because society has said the risks of just any nut job building a vehicle and driving it out on the road or selling a bunch of defective vehicles to people is something as society we don't wanna put up with. And I think the tech industry right now has to go through understanding our level of importance to society means we have obligations. And that's going to change what you can build and how you can build it and how quickly you can get it out there. Whether you're huge and already in incumbent or a small company building something new. I think those days of just build what you want and see what happens are going to be harder and harder to come by. See, especially the consumers' expectation is higher and now they wanna try out. They do not want to try out. Crazy, like all blue ideas. Now they say, okay, can this really solve my problem or not? And I don't think they have so much distractions. So existing product and each product out there you already have five competitors, large or small or people want to compete with Google again as well as too large to compete with. So now the standard is very high. There's so many different competitions but really want to solve the best problem and the race to the market as well. I think that there will still be amazing new things for a very long time to come. And I think that you actually have platforms making things easier. Again, we're getting a little off track but like when I was doing a startup around like 1999 in California, we had to buy a bunch of expensive hardware and run it in data centers and the software was all super customized. I would love to be running a startup today where I could build on top of Google Cloud or Amazon or Azure. It's actually easier to come up with new ideas in certain ways. So I think it's still an incredibly competitive environment. Yeah, exactly. Just the infrastructure is when the bar is much higher now. And let me ask you this question regarding your thoughts of growth mindset, investing yourself. You know, lots of us, you know, we're going through a stock market going up and down as we're filming this video stock market is already 10% higher than as high as it has, which is also ridiculous. People are thinking about what's the summary to invest but when they talk about investment, they're always thinking about, oh invest in stock market, invest in real estate, right? So what do you think is the importance of investing yourself with a growth mindset? It's the only way. I would often say this to people on my team who would be self-critical or worried about things and this is going to sound a little bit toxic. So I hope it's accepted in the spirit is all of the best people I worked with were in one way or another, their own worst critics. And I don't mean that in a self-destructive way or a negative self-talk way, but that they were always aware of the possibility that they could learn something new, that they could find another way to do something that there was an opportunity to improve. I generally found in my experience the product managers you have to worry about are the ones who are confident that they're awesome and they're just waiting for the universe to recognize their greatness. Those are the people that actually, I feel like delivered worse results over time or people would just get to the point that they didn't wanna work with them. You wanna have that growth mindset because you always have an opportunity to try something new to learn something new. I mean, one of the best things of the past five years of my career at Google was I got to work with and I'm still working with an absolutely phenomenal executive coach and she's a psychologist and an executive coach and I talked to her monthly for years working on things that I knew I could get better at. The fact that I had a long tenure and had done all this great stuff didn't mean I was done. It meant that the areas I wanted to develop in were shifting, but I loved having the opportunity to learn and try and develop new skills. I'm still learning. I'm gonna be learning hopefully the rest of my life. This is an actually, I found out pattern. Actually, the more you said, the more they are and the more they see if you've came and help from as well. And as you say, it's five years every single month in money only, exactly. Because that's, I know, that's a lot of investment on your side. And myself also spent $30,000 last year in building other skills. And I do believe that better investment than putting stock market. Well, so how soon are we gonna cry? We don't know. We don't predict. But after here, Yake, you will present on that. This is perfect. Okay, so Jonathan, what is the best way for people to learn more about executive presentation? How can people will reach out to you? Sure, I have a website, www.bellac.com. And there's a resources link at the top that has the sort of slideshow version of some of what we've talked about with some additional stuff as well. You're welcome to take a look at that. There's another resource up there. They'll probably be more over time. Awesome, great. Cool, I'm going to link in the description of this video and show notes. People feel free to go down there and check out the slideshow. And we also know that we're gonna join our private discussion with our article. We are gonna go through several, several in-prides. Go there and teach how exactly they can create fantastic as the executive presentation in our private session. Awesome, great. So thank you, thank you so much and everybody who tuned in today. Make sure to give a five star review on Spotify and Apple Plus once this is published end. Make sure to like and share the streaming of the live videos on YouTube and LinkedIn. We're looking forward to see all of you guys in our next product insider podcast. And so now our quick announcement for, so Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely, thank you, Nancy. This has been great. Great, thank you, Jonathan, fantastic. So now quick announcement for people who is insider inner circle with us and also our student inside at the PMX Center to feel free to join the Zoom link. And you guys already received the Zoom link this morning and also inside our Discord channel for people who is outside of program. We also make the inner circle for free for people as well. We can go to darknancy.com slash inner circle or just go to my website homepage and then you click services. You can find inner circle link to immediate sign up free. And then you will get Zoom at Zoom for the prior privatization which was Jonathan dive steeper regarding eyes, how to disguise exactly as well. Okay, great. All right, thank you very much for joining us today. Jonathan, let's jump to Zoom. The Zoom is in the meet invitation. So let's end there to see our audience. Give them more insight. Okay, great meeting you and talk to you soon.