 Bismillahi was-salatu was-salam wa-ra'ana Rasoolillahi sallallahu wa-ra'alihi wa-salam ama ba'adah salam wa-ra'aliikum wa-rahmatullahi wa-barakatuh Brothers and sisters it gives me great pleasure to welcome you and to introduce you to a brand new show and a brand new podcast called The Hot Seat. To understand a little bit more about The Hot Seat we first have to understand the context of the modern day world we find ourselves living in in the year 2019. It is a world in which perhaps there are more doubts, misconceptions and misinterpretations that are thrown around about the religion of Islam than in any other period of time in the history of mankind. The internet is a number one source used by people globally to acquire information on any topic and it is riddled and full of false notions and erroneous ideologies about the Dean of Allah Aziz al-Wajal. Our kids, ourselves are being exposed to this kind of information on a daily and if not daily then at the very least weekly basis and whether we know it or not, whether we choose to accept it or not it is having an effect on ourselves, our hearts, our minds and ultimately our understanding of this beautiful religion. To further complicate the problem many of us find ourselves living in Western societies where the governments and the social norms and pressures are constantly trying to redefine what is good and what is bad, what is accepted and what is rejected, what Islam is and is allowed to be and what Islam is never allowed to be. All of this my brothers and sisters ultimately leads to confusion, it leads to ignorance and if Allah permits it can lead to misguidance. The hot seat has therefore been designed with the permission of Allah alone to counter these kind of modern day contemporary issues head-on by using the knowledge and the guidance of the Muslims of the past, the early generations of Muslims, the best of generations. There's not a single Muslim on the face of the planet today that would doubt the fact that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala completed our religion for us over 1400 years ago and that that completed, holistic, perfect religion is just as applicable now in the year 2019 as it was back then. We truly do have classical solutions for contemporary problems. However this isn't your normal average Islamic lecture series, first of all it's not a lecture, it's a discussion between two parties, often opposing parties in an attempt to reach the truth behind it there and secondly and perhaps more importantly it's a unique one-of-its-kind interactive podcast where you from the comfort of your own home have the opportunity to vote for and to choose the topic we'll be discussing on the show. You also have the chance to ask your own questions on these contemporary issues and to grill the speaker if you feel like he hasn't been grilled enough on the show itself. I'll be releasing details of how you can do both of those things at the end of this episode but for now without any further ado let's get into this episode of The Hot Seat Hello and welcome to The Hot Seat. Thank you very much for joining me today. So this as you know is episode one and as I mentioned in the introduction it's talking about contemporary issues that we're dealing with in the year 2019 the modern-day world and actually this was actually your idea you approached me with this to have this kind of podcast dealing with modern-day issues. Do you want to tell a bit more about why you think this is important for the Muslims in 2019? As you know the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam he told us that there's going to come trials and tribulations as time goes on and we get closer to the hour the problems that are going to be going through the groups that are going to be formed the ideologies that are going to be presented the Prophet already told us he prophesied this 1400 something years ago and he didn't just prophesize that they're going to come problems and they're going to come deviated and misguided concepts but rather he Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam he clarified he explained the way out of it and how is a Muslim meant to deal with those ideologies and those beliefs and those misconceptions. So I've seen Saha to da'wah what's taking place in the da'wah scene and I don't want to say people haven't responded to these ideologies and these groups and the good work has been done and efforts have been exerted in that regard but I've not yet seen this is my humble opinion someone who's taken these issues these contemporary problems and then responded from a classical textual evidence that they didn't come with anything new but they used the Qur'an they used the Sunnah they used the statement of the early generation who we believe in our tradition that they are the most noble and most righteous as the Prophet said in the hadid khairu nasi qarni so which means the best of generation is my generation and those who come and those who come after so since they're the best the khairiyah the virtue that's connected to these people is not just their actions and as many people believe that how they prayed how they read Quran but also in terms of their knowledge and the knowledge that they possessed so what I wanted to do is take all of these groups whether they are within Islam or outside Islam and debunk their misconceptions respond and dismantle their beliefs all based upon nusus al wahya in textual evidences from the Qur'an from the sunnah and from the statements of the early generation that's why I thought a podcast that could do that is greatly needed because as you know sheikh of islam ibn utaimiya he responded to just about every group at his time whether they were groups within islam or whether they were groups outside islam he responded to them and he really responded to them with the Qur'an and the sunnah he proved that the answers are within those two and so I want to bring back to the young youths who are studying in academic universities who are learning psychology they are learning philosophy they are learning these these doubts have been brought to them and presented to them I want to give them the thiqa the confidence that their answers is not far-fetched it's actually right under their nose it's in the Qur'an and the sunnah so that's why I think you shan't not answer I think from a personal perspective one thing that I'm really looking forward to is having some user interaction so the fact that the viewers at home get to vote for which topic we're going to be discussing on certain episodes and the fact that this is a podcast and it's not a lecture so you have the opportunity to go into detail more detail than you have for a lecture so as you know this is episode one so we haven't released the vote and it was a topic that we're going to discuss today that we chose or specifically I chose and presented to you and that is who can you trust in the modern day day and the reason why this is a contemporary issue because the advent of social media has allowed many many people will learn how to speak about Islam and that can bring some good and it can also bring some bad and the purpose of today is to discuss those good things and those bad things and how we can be careful and how we should be cautious in terms of who we take our knowledge from so the first question I'll ask you is why is this even important why do we need to be cautious from who we take knowledge from so before I answer your question there's one thing a disclaimer that I want to put out there for everybody inshallah ta'ala all of the topics not just this session inshallah ta'ala but every single topic that we have I really want the listeners those who are watching inshallah ta'ala that if they have a deep rooted negative belief if they have a dark perception of a topic that we're going to that we're going to speak about or we're going to handle and they got preconceived notion that they come inshallah ta'ala with a clear mind okay but they come with a clear mind and they put aside everything that they believed before and they really look at what we're trying to bring the evidences and the proofs that we're trying to provide and our arguments all based on their merits and all based upon its authenticity and the way that we extract the rulings and we deduct the arguments from it so that's something I want inshallah ta'ala and I wouldn't want somebody to come and believe something first and when they do come to the discussion all they're trying to look for is flaws in the argument or flaws in our discussion because if you're trying to do that then I can reassure you now we will have that we will have that because we're humans the poet said who is the person that when he speaks he doesn't do mistakes but the virtue of a person is that their mistakes are countable so that's the first thing that I request inshallah ta'ala that you don't have any psychological resistance that inshallah ta'ala you give this podcast a chance to hear our arguments in response to your question the dangers of innovation and also the people of innovation it stems from the meaning of la ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasool Allah and as you know la ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasool Allah is the foundation of our religion when a person comes into Islam that's the first thing that they are told to say they are told to say la ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasool Allah the part that concerns this podcast is Muhammad Rasool Allah what does it mean when somebody says I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah what he's saying in essence is that I follow him in everything in all my speech in all my actions I follow Nabila Muhammad in my belief system in simple terms you're saying I'm upon his sunnah his way sunnah means the way of the messenger alaihi salatu salam and so when you say I'm upon the way of the prophet alaihi salatu salam you're also saying I am against the way that is opposite to his way the newly introduced ways so you connect yourself to his sunnah and you also show allegiance to the people who are holding onto that sunnah with you you have love for them and you also free yourself from innovation and the people who come with innovation you free yourself from them and we're going to be using terms like a sunnah so it's good to understand it now which means the prophet's way alaihi salatu salam and his tradition his speech his actions sunnah means ma'udifah ila nabi sallallahu alaihi salam in qawlin or fi'lin or taqirin or sifatu khuluqiya or khilqiya it is whatever is attributed to the prophet in terms of speech action consent the prophet's character and the way he looked at alaihi salatu salam all of that is is a sunnah that's what sunnah means and innovation means everything that was introduced into the religion without any pre-example there's no example that came before it meaning this person bought it either themselves or someone within islamic history he introduced it into islam it wasn't practiced at the time of the messenger alaihi salatu salam it was not practiced at the time of the companions that's an innovation i want to say quickly and we're going to speak about that in more great details inshallah there's one hadith that the messenger sallallahu alaihi salam advised his companions and this is basically the hadith of erbaad ibn sariyah ashab al sunnah narrated it that the messenger sallallahu alaihi salam and some of his companions narrated it that the messenger sallallahu alaihi salam he advised his companions he said erbaad the companion said the messenger gave us a farewell i can just a farewell advice it really our heart trembled from the prophet's words and his eyes started to water it was like it was a farewell like the last speech like if you're about to die so we said to him for all sinaia rasulallahu alaihi sallallahu alaihi salam o messenger of allah give us a waqsiyah the messenger mentioned here three usul three foundations three fundamental principles the first foundation is that you come with monetism and you come with following the messenger sallallahu alaihi salam that's the first foundation the second foundation is that you stick to the jama'a you stick to the jama'a the jama'a here means you follow the way of the companions okay you follow the way of the companions and you stick with the muslim leader that you don't uprise and you don't protest and you don't demonstrate against the muslim leader okay and you hear and you obey him of course as long as he doesn't come on you something that which is haram the third usul is stay away from innovation and also the innovators the the prophet warned us against this so this hadith it talks about three foundations that the people of the sunnah hold on to and this is like one of the last statements of the messenger alaihi salatu salam or it was one of his final farewell statements salawatullahi wa salamu alaihi so what you're saying is actually a piece of prophetic advice to advise us to be careful of innovators and to stay away from them that is exactly what the prophet sallallahu alaihi salamu alaihi salam did i mean if i could still build up upon that a bit more if you actually ponder on the Quran and also the sunnah you will find that it's built upon two foundations it's built upon a to place a foundation to clarify the truth to tell the people what is right and what Allah wants and what pleases him that is the first foundation the second foundation is that our religion stands on is warning against evil in all of its forms warning against innovation warning against sins warning even from the sinners warning against what the innovators this is what our religion stands on and it's sad because what you see nowadays is people who just they like to please others they like to believe these other people or veneration and glorification of particular individuals prevents them from from wanting to say the truth and what is right they actually see that which is wrong it's right in front of them but they won't say anything they'll say what's it got to do with me and so i wanted to remind them a hadith of the prophet sallallahu alaihi salam al-iman a tirmidy narrated it ibn maja and also al-haqim narrated it is mustadrak in al-khudri that the messenger sallallahu alaihi salam he said the prophet said do do not let one of you prevent him a rajul and heiba to nasi the veneration and the glorification of the people you're trying to honor a particular imam you're trying to honor a particular community so because of that you choose not to say the truth don't let it stop you from what and you go to be a haqqin to say the truth when you when you when you know that this is the way Allah wants you know that this is what Allah commanded you know this is what Allah prohibited just because of the people don't withhold it say it abu saeed al-khudri when the prophet said that he cried the narrator of the hadith the companion he cried and look what he said he said qad wallahi by Allah by Allah qadraina we saw ashiyaa fahibna we saw things that were done in our presence but we chose to not speak against it because of veneration of people and glorification of people and so this sahabi recognized it he touched him i hope that this can do it for a lot of people out there who now are just really concerned about how many followers do i have how many people are with me you know that they measure their da'wah and the success of their da'wah on how many people follow them and inshallah i think we'll speak about that in great details inshallah ta'ala but i i think that should be the foundation of our podcast that really we're not here right now in these podcasts to really please anyone and i always say to people it's not about concealing and withholding the message that's not what slams come for and that's not what Islam is saying you say the truth but you look how you say it you you choose the wordings that you're going to use to to preach to this person or to to to convey the message to this particular person you choose it you don't just say it the way you want and then look you say oh the person doesn't want to take the truth i've been speaking to him for a long time yeah but in a despicable way you've been speaking to them so the message should be conveyed but it should be conveyed in a well-mannered way as Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala said uh to nabilah musah haroon he's exceeded his limits why the way that you speak to farah and the gentle message that you use for him will and could possibly it can humble him and it can maybe allow him to come to his senses Allah knew that farah wasn't going to come back but this is a lesson for you and i when he died because some of the great scholars they used to say you are not better than musa he was commanded to speak in that way okay and the person that you're talking to is not worse than farah you're talking to a muslim brother of yours so i think that's balancing and not conflating the two that i just mentioned which is conveying the message and also how you convey the message the people they should another thing i think before i start is that in our podcast we're more focused we're more focused on um what the people need and not what the people want and that's i think what the job of a day is he should focus on what the community need what is important for them and solving their problems and not what they want sometimes people want things that are bad for them things that are detrimental for them we need to focus on what the people want and so what the people need so i think inshallah with that inshallah i hope i hope allah brings i think you've laid down some really important fundamentals inshallah we'll revisit later on throughout this episode but you spoke in detail about staying away from the people of innovation warning against the people of innovation but as you know we don't take certain ahadith and certain ayat from the Quran and we base our religion on that we look at the religion as a whole and there are other verses in the Quran and other ahadith that talk about for example khusna dan having good thoughts about your brother not suspecting him not bat biting him isn't what you're saying contradictory to all of this this concept of and to be cautious from the innovators it's it's not selected evidence is here and there to be frank and honest it's actually the entirety of the Quran is warning against evil and its people and it's telling you to go towards good and its people that's the whole entire Quran rather the Quran it's called al-fruqan because what you for the kubein al-haqi wal-batil the job of the Quran is to tell you this is right from this is wrong when he that he got when nabila and Muhammad came to mecca and he called the people to al-islam the accusation and that which was said about him was Muhammad and the reason why they said that is because he was calling them to a message he didn't take he didn't water that message he didn't say Allah al-islam to change it to fit into their society and etc when he did salawatullah was he gave the message as it was let me mention some evidences maybe some people who are listening haven't even heard of these evidences our mother aisha is the wife of the prophet aisha was the wife of the prophet and we can say that she was she is the most knowledgeable woman that we know in islam our mother aisha and that's why aisha correcting some of the other companions she is a scholar she said that one day the message aleyh salat was this is found in bukhari muslim the two most authentic books she said that the prophet recited the famous ayah he said that the prophet recited this ayah and when he recited this verse she said first of what does the verse mean quickly there's a lot of meaning in the verse that we can take episodes on it but the ayah in summary mentions that the Quran is divided into two ambiguous and vague verses and verses which are clear cut Allah mentioned in that verse people whose hearts are sick whether they are non muslims or whether they are muslims they won't go for the clear cut verses they will actually go towards the ambiguous verses those vague verses those verses that can take more than one interpretation they're going to go for those ones and they're going to make that the asal the fundamental principle and they're going to dismiss and push aside the clear cut verses Allah referred to them as sick hearted individuals they are sick hearted people i'll give you an example i can clarify that for you for instance Allah uses in the Quran now we know the word we even in english it's used for one of two reasons either out of royalty a person who is venerating himself out of royalty or it can be used for a person who's talking and he's got somebody else talking with him meaning plurality it can be used for one of those two a sick hearted person will go towards yeah the fact that it's more than one they'll say that it's more than one because they don't want to go to the clear cut verses that show Allah when he used the word he only means himself and he's speaking out of royalty the ayat is so he's sick hearted our messenger when he recited that verse he said to his wife he said to her if you see those people they follow those ambiguous verses okay they are the ones Allah has named it's the ones Allah pointed out in this verse be vigilant and diligent from these people he said that so the Quran we know that there are verses which are unclear that are ambiguous the poet Sahib al-Baraqi he said there are verses which we would never even know what it's meaning are like for example and letters like that Allah kept the knowledge for himself and there are some verses which are unclear but they become clear when you take them to what when you take them back to the clear he becomes clear sick hearted person what would he do he would not take all of these verses that we're going to mention he's going to say well i want to take the one here and the one there so our mother aisha the prophet warned her from those type of people said stay away from them now question here is aisha has knowledge to determine who's saying what and what and the response to him she knows that but he's still told that stay away from them in another this is my path follow it don't follow those people's paths they will take you away from what please they will throw you into the ditch they will throw you into hell so don't follow them until they say in a different Hadith Allah says if you come across a people who are speaking about the verses of Allah with no knowledge they are distorting the meaning of the Qur'an they are misinterpreting the Qur'an don't sit with these people the innovators the misguided people don't sit with them leave them get away from them Allah mentions in that same verse if you do sit with them and you choose to still carry on being with them Allah says in Nakum either you are like them now this ayah some may say oh but this is what it means and how do you know it's referring to the innovators and whatnot let me give you the statement of the scholars and Imam al-Qurtubi is one of the great great illustrious scholars of al-Islam bona fide and he has a tafsir book look what he said this is after he spoke about you have to stay away from the sinners the person drinking alcohol you can't see in his gathering and etc i said after i have established Qurtubi say this after i have established to stay away from the people of sins and the criminals as i just mentioned to stay away from the people of innovation well ahwa'i and desires oh la is more befitting if i'm telling you to stay away from the people drinking alcohol and coming in zina who are lying or cheating than to stay away from the innovators it's actually even more more befitting it's more befitting look what he then said the people who enter into this verse are completely innovating every innovator in this religion i want to mention to you a powerful extremely powerful statement of al-imam al-shoukani i actually believe this statement is enough for us to conclude the whole point okay it's that powerful subhanAllah look what al-shoukani says i was really amazed how he spoke about this topic he said in this verse he said there's a more or less there's a lesson a reminder a great reminder okay every innovator you will see that he distorts the quran whether he'll be distorting it physically by changing it and inshallah that won't happen because Allah will protect it and the second type of distortion which is to change its meanings to change the meaning and also that inshallah won't happen because there's always horras people are going to protect the religion so this verse he said there's a great reminder for those who sit and permit and like to sit with the innovators which innovators those who distort the speech of Allah and they are playing around with the book of Allah and the son of the messenger sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and they bring everything back to their desires when you say something to them they say i'm not inclined to it i don't like it which desires they're misguided designs and they're corrupt innovation if the person does not reject these people if the person does not debunk these people and dismantle their belief and he doesn't change their affairs fee then let the basic thing that you at least do let the thing that you at least do be and that you leave off sitting with them at least you couldn't change them you saw that these people are persistent upon their misguidance and they're persistent upon going against Allah's commandments falling into the their their whims and their desires then let the least that you can do be to walk away from them and not to sit with them look what he then said وذلك يسير عليه غير عصير that's very easy and it's not hard i like this statement i love this he said they will take your sitting with them you sitting with them you've been with them they will sit with people we are upon guidance imam so-and-so is with us sheikh so-and-so so-and-so is with us so how can we be misguided so-and-so who calls to the sunnah who's been preaching the sunnah who fights for the sunnah who holds them to the sunnah is with us how can we be misguided how can we be astray that's what they would say him participating him being there with them him cutting the cake with them and all of that there's going to be in there it's actually an additional problem what's the additional problem because you couldn't change their evil that was really a problem you're sitting with them it was another it was another problem and now you've added more on to it which is that you have made the eyes of the general mass turn towards this person because your affiliation with somebody makes the people think that this person's verified this person is masha'Allah he is up there you see you sitting with them is a greater evil than just listen to the evil another evidence that i want to mention insha'Allah is the statement of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam the messenger said in that this is mentioned by muslim in his muqaddimah and it's important that people understand this if you quote a hadith that's in the introduction of muslim you can't just say muslim narrate it and leave it like that okay you have to clearly say that it is in the introduction of muslim in the muqaddimah of muslim the reason is because they say that the muqaddimah doesn't have the same condition of what is in his in his in his main book so we have to say that because there can't be weak narration in the muqaddimah but this is authentic muslim narrated this in his muqaddimah and abu huraira said that the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam will be in my nation before the hour strikes the ending of the hour there's going to be unasun you hadithu anakum there's going to come up with people they will talk to you guys they will preach they will convey the so-called message of islam to you they will say things that you've never heard of and your forefathers have never heard of it stay away from them stay away from them be cautious of them who's saying this the messenger alayhi sallallahu alayhi wa sallam maybe allahi muhammad is saying this stay away from them be cautious and i want to say to the people who are listening in the podcast i want to say after those evidence that i gave no one should argue against allah in his messenger allah said in the quran the only people who argue against the vices of allah are the disbelievers How did Allah say that? What did He say? I don't understand that. Tastibaal in the people. Ma yujadiru fi aayatillah illa alladhi la kafarufa la yaghururka taqalubun fil bilad. The people who argue against it are people who have desires and who have illness. And maybe that person should be worried for himself, concerned for himself that he would question such evidences. Okay, this is where I'm at. I think you provided sufficient proof of staying away from innovators. Can I give examples of the Prophet doing himself? Warning against? People, individuals, saying their names. You have examples? I have examples. Okay. Fatima bint iqais was a woman who came to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. She said, She mentioned to the Prophet that Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. She said, Oh, the Messenger of Allah, Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. Now we want to understand who Muawiyah is. Muawiyah is the category one. He's the writer. He is the scriber who writes the revelation. That's what he stated. He's been trusted with the revelation of the Qur'an. He's a reliable person. radiAllahu ta'ala anhu. Noble companion. Muawiyah. Aba jahmin is another noble companion. Both of these companions, they came for the hand of Fatima bint iqais. So Fatima came to the Prophet. She wants to consult him. She said, Oh Messenger of Allah, two men have come for me and they want to get married to me. What do you think? The Prophet said to her, Amma abu jahmin. Ask for abu jahmin. فلا يضع عصاه عن عاتقه. Abu jahmin. He doesn't take his sword. Sorry, he's a stick. He doesn't throw his stick from his shoulder. Meaning he's always carrying his stick. In another narration, the Prophet said He beats the women. That's what he does. In other words, don't marry him. The second companion, the second noble companion is Muawiyah. And they said Muawiyah doesn't have a wife. So don't go for him. Then he said Go and marry Usama ibn Zaid. Now Usama is the person who the Prophet instructed her to get married to. He told her to stay away from two noble companions. Let's focus here. The Prophet is warning a woman, a female companion about the marriage of two noble companions. The Messenger first of all did not mention the good in these two companions. He didn't. He straight away went into the what? That which he folds them on. That which he felt was necessary to tell Fatima ibn Teqais. Number two, He saw it binding to speak about them. And this was not considered to be backbiting. He spoke about them. No one would say the Prophet fell into bad biting and go sort of done. At all. He mentioned a reality in front of them. If you go to Riyad al-Salehain, Riyad al-Salehain, everyone knows that book, right? It's a loved book, right? No, we chapter the chapter where he called it The time when backbiting is permissible. And from them, do we find this? Of course he does. Six times he said it's permissible. Six different situations he said it. From them is, from them is, if you see a person who's walking to a teacher, wanting to take knowledge from him and that teacher is corrupt, then he said it is permissible to backbite him and to say that stay away from this teacher. Don't go to him. Now what we say in this? That's exactly what we're talking about now. Exactly what he said. Another example I want to show you is that A'ishas he said A man sought permission to enter upon the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam So when the Prophet saw the man, the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, what did he say? Oh, he heard him. He said Evil is is this man? Now, now what we're commenting on this statement, this hadith in his Sahih Muslim, he explained it. He said this is an indication and an evidence that if an evil person comes and you believe that it's going to harm the people that you speak against them. And another time we know the famous hadith when the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam about a companion. He said Abu Sanabil was a companion. He gave a verdict in an issue and he got it wrong. The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said He lied. And that's why Imam Ahmad, a man came to him and he said to him it's hard on me. A man came to Imam Ahmad and he said to him it's actually hard on me to speak about the people. I can't speak about people. I can't do that. I cannot do that. I can't say so-and-so is this and so-and-so is that. I can't do that. Imam Ahmad said to him if you become quiet and I then become quiet as well when will the ignorant one know who's right and who's a fraudster? How are the people going to know? If I go quiet and you go quiet and everyone goes quiet then no one will know who is real and who is fake. No one will know. Lahi, you've convinced me. You've convinced me but there is still a few issues outstanding in that. First of them is our discussion so far has been about innovators and it's easy to warn against a clear-cut innovator who doesn't know is opposing the Sunnah. But the question is as is the case with many, many speakers out there who were given dour what if you're not what if they haven't made clear what they're upon and you're not 100% sure if they're an innovator. From them people I'm assuming it's okay to take knowledge. I do want to say something which is important that is taking the people out of the Sunnah is something very hard. Okay. It's not an easy matter. A person shouldn't be hasty on it. Especially if you have no knowledge. That's not your field to speak about it. But what I do want to say is warning against a person who is an innovator and it's clear to you that he's an innovator and I will mention how you can know it's clear to you and what makes it clear. I will speak about that. I will not push that aside. We should warn against that person and it's upon them it's an amana it's a responsibility on that da'i and on that t'aribu ilm to warn the people against that person and say don't take that knowledge from that person. And this issue is not a disputed issue by the way. It's a consensus. I'm saying that no two scholars from the pious places have differed on that. Let me mention one consensus for this issue. Tabitha muna ajalanin he said I direct to Anas ibn Malikin Wa minu al-Musayibi Wa al-Hassan al-Basriya Wa sa'eeda minu jubairini Wa al-Shaabi Wa ibrahim al-Nakhaiya Wa ataa ibn Abi Rabahin Wa ta'usan wa mujahidin Wa abdillah ibn Abi Mulaikat Wa al-Zuhri Wa makhoolan Wa al-qasim Wa al-Qasim Wa tabitha al-Bunaniya Wa al-Hakam Wa al-Unainat Wa ayyub al-Sakhtiyani Wa Hamad Wa Muhammad ibn Al-Sireen Wa Aba'a Amirin Wa kana qad adraka Aba'a Bakr al-Siddiq Aba'a Amir hima Abu Bakr al-Siddiq Wa yazeeda al-Rakashi Wa Sulaiman ibn Musa Kullu Humb All of the dimension Ya'muruni Bil jamaa They told me stick with the jamaa Al-Sunnah Wa yana hawni And they prohibited me from And they won me from What an ashabil ahwai The people of desires Isma This is a Mas'ala Ajmaat fihi salaf The salaf they Unanimously agreed upon And it's worrying that After that a person Will still question and say Really Why? What are you guys talking about? Abdullah ibn Abbasin He said, Don't sit with the People of innovation Fa inna mujalasat I was sitting with the People of innovation Munridatulil Qulub It is what? It brings illness to the heart Some people they say Tesqiyatun nafs We want to purify our hearts Yes, we need to purify our hearts But one of the things That taint the heart Is to sit with the innovators To take from them To be with them It makes the heart sick And it destroy your hearts And it's what brings Darkness to your heart And dots to your heart And makes your life hard So stay away from the innovators Now People who fall into mistakes Or people who come With shortcomings And they're in the dawah scene We have to understand That what type of mistake Have they fallen into This is something very important That's understood Because I think you're going to Explain the question here Is if you're saying Stay away from innovators How does one know Who has fallen into innovation? Okay Let me mention What makes a person From the sunnah Al-Imam al-Safareena Is al-Awama al-Anwar He says something very Powerful He said Al-Ladina inna ma yaquduna He's talking about The people of the sunnah Al-Sunnah They are Ones who take Inna ma yaquduna Aqeedatahum They take their belief That which is transmitted From Allah So you want to recognize Who's right and who's wrong Okay They take their religion Their belief system Okay They take it from what? From Allah From Allah There's a book Which he mentioned in his book The Quran Or in the sunnah Or that which the messenger Mentioned Or that which has been Transmitted from the prophet Or what has been Transmitted from the prophet Or what has been Transmitted from the prophet Or what has been Sort of Just strategically being Transmitted from the Pious predasis Who Which is That Sa'hab was the Students of the prophet And the students Of the monks Okay So here A person Was like I take the Quran And I take the sunnah The That will really Allow you To know that If this person Is real Who from the Sahabas understood it in this way? Who from the early generation who the Prophet praised? Because look what the Prophet said. The Prophet said something very powerful. Look what he said. He said, My Ummah is going to be divided. 72 sects. 73 sects, sorry. 73 groups. 73 groups. All of them are in Hellfire. Except one. Not two. Not three. Not four. This goes against those who say. Those who say that everyone's going to go to Jannah from different places. This group. That group. This group. We're all going to meet, insha'Allah, from different parts of Jannah. When it comes to belief system, there's only one saved group. There's not multiple groups. There's only one. The Prophet spoke. The most eloquent man. He said one. He didn't say two. He said one group. Who are they now? He didn't say it is so and so. The Messenger gave what is called a sifat al-kashifa. He gave a continuous description. Anyone who comes with is from that saved group. You don't have to sign an allegiance to a particular Imam or a Sheikh or you don't have to meet a person and shake his hand or... You don't have to have a bond with a group of people. No, you don't have to. This is all that's needed from you. What is it? Anyone who is upon that which me and my companions are upon now. So if you've told me a verse and you really can't take that verse back to an interpretation of a companion, then I'm worried about you. You're scaring me. You're coming with a newly introduced belief now. Because I was told that the saved group is the ones who are what? Who are upon that which the Prophet was upon and that which his companions were upon. So if a person is holding on to the view of the companions even if that view is weak but the Sahaba said it, we will respect you because you're holding on to the statements of the companions. And all it now then takes is it's an itch-tihaadi related issue. It's a itch-tihaadun sa'ikh. It's a permitted difference of opinion because you've got a group of companions. Even though they will still say we don't agree with that view of Ibn Abbas or that view of so-so because of another Sahabi statement but we will not take you out of the fold of Ahlu Sunnah or you will not be taken out of the fold of Ahlu Sunnah because you're holding on to the view of Sahabah. Now I want to say something. If a person takes the Qur'an, the Sunnah and the consensus, pay attention. He takes the Masdar-ul-Talaqi. Masdar-ul-Talaqi means the source in which you take your religion from. We Ahlu Sunnah, I hope we're from them insha'Allah-ul-Talaqi. We take our religion from the Qur'an and we take it from the Sunnah and we take it from the consensus of the early generation. Okay? And I say early generation because it's hard to affirm consensus is hard to confirm it after the Sahabahs. It's hard. Not that it can't be done but it's hard. And I will bring the statement of Sheikh al-Santani insha'Allah-ul-Talaqi. If anybody doesn't take those evidences, doesn't take the Qur'an or the Sunnah or the consensus, then he is an innovator and the proof is not established against him. The proof is not established against him. This is the statement of Abu Qasim, Hebatullah al-Lalaka, E.U. and Iman al-Sambun, E.U. Ima said this. Sheikh al-Islam mentioned this. If a person says, I'm not going to take the Qur'an as an evidence or I'm not going to take the Sunnah or he uses his logic. That person is an innovator. That minute he said it. There's no need to bring the proof to him. He's already done it himself. Everybody's going to deal with him as an innovator. La tuqamu alayh huja. Proof is not established on him. Okay? But if a person goes against Ahlu Sunnah in an asal min usulihah, a fundamental principle like for example, he goes against Ahlu Sunnah in the Mas'alat al-Iman. Okay? He takes maybe the view of the Murjiah or the view of the khawaret. Then, the proof is established on him. So, there's fundamental points that I want to mention that Ahlu Sunnah and the Jama'at believe that if a person goes against those fundamental the proofs are established on him. Okay? If he goes against the Mas'alat al-Talaki, the source of where we take our evidence from, no, no, no. You're an innovator straight away. And a proof is not established on you. But if you go against Ahlu Sunnah in the fundamental issues that are in there, the proof is going to be established on you. You're going to be told what your point is wrong. You're going to be advised accordingly. And those usulah, I'm going to mention them fast and we can go over them insha'Allah, later. The first one is Allah's Names and Attributes. Number two, al-Sahabah, companions, and the position of the companions, al-Qad'ah, al-Qadar, the predestination, and the, what Allah has ordained for creation. Number three, Mas'ail al-Ismail al-Ahkam, Names and rulings are in found in the Quran like iman, and kufr, and et cetera. And last but not least, al-Wa'id al-Wa'id, the warnings and the promises in the Quran and how do we deal with them? These are five usul that you find in books of Al-Atiqat. If everybody goes against Ahlul Sunnah in those five, proof is established against them. If he persists upon them, then he's an innovator and the dealing of the innovators will come into place. These five, Sheikh al-Islam al-Taymiy talks about them in al-Aqidah al-Wa'ad al-Sashtiyyah. He summarized them all. A person studies it there. Also, Abu Bakr al-Ismail al-Ailiyah in his Kitab, al-Atiqat al-Aimah al-Hadeeth, he mentions it there. al-Aqidah al-Salif al-Ashab al-Hadeeth, al-Uthman al-Sabuni, he mentions it there as well. Abu Qasim al-Taymiy mentions it in his Kitab, al-Hujjah al-Bayan al-Mahajjah. Abu Qasim al-Taymiy mentions it. Abu Qasim, may Allah protect you, may Allah protect you. He mentions it in his Kitab, al-Islam al-Islam al-Ailiyah. It's in the books al-Aqidah. Okay. The third thing that I want to mention, the third thing I want to mention is, if a person comes with so many sub-branches, for example, he says, a man can shade his beard. Okay. That's a fiqh issue. It's a fara. It's not even a fundamental issue. It's a branch. Okay. Even though that's a question, because it is a consensus, by the way. Maybe that example might not be correct. But let's say he says, for example, anal sex is permissible. And then he says, for example, you can drink with your right, left. And then he says, for example, music is halal. And then he says, many fiqh issues, he brings them and he says, permissible, permissible, permissible, permissible, permissible. These are for all sub-branches. They are what? They are sub-branches. These for all now make it advice. You get established rules that proof are going to be established upon you. If you persist, you're an innovator. Okay. That is what the scholars mentioned. You find two groups of people, they are extreme, either in exaggeration or extreme in negligence. Who are they? There's a group who say, everything you need to establish the proof against the person, you need to take the proof. And another group of people, no, no, no, I don't establish proof on anybody. He said a mistake, he's off the, he's off the manhach. So as I mentioned, is what the salaf said. I can put all their speech in context, but it's better just to give the framework, insha'Allah. As-Salaamu Alaykum. Right now, you've given a lot of detail on why we should leave alone even innovators and not even sit with them, as you said. But my question is, what if you have an individual, like there are many, many individuals in the world today who are not openly calling to innovation. Do we treat them the same as the other innovators that you're speaking about? Without a doubt, if you look at the books of the sunnah, you look at the books of scholars, books of hadith as well. The scholars, they do distinguish between the one who calls to his innovation and the one who doesn't. If a person is not calling to his innovation, he takes a toll to a different rolling from the one who isn't calling to it. So if he's calling and if he isn't calling, it's two different rulings. So would you not agree that many of the speakers today are not calling to their innovation? They're rather calling to doing good deeds and being good to your parents. Is that something you'd agree with? You see, that's the thing. I mean, when I say a lot of the speakers, that would mean I would have to look at statistics and I would have to... I don't know, I can't say all of them or majority of them but what I can say is there are a portion of them who I can definitely say that calling to misguidance is not... a person has to come and say, I'm the jail or I am here to misguide you. It's done in different ways and different forms. I mean, let me just read the speech on you which I think is very relevant to the question you just asked. Yeah, this statement of Al-Imam Shaiq Al-Salam Taimi'ah that they are away from what was really imported for them to understand. Shaiq Al-Salam Taimi'ah he says, The innovation at the beginning is just a handspan. Okay. Okay. And the followers that handspan innovation becomes an armspan and then it becomes a mile and then it becomes continents. It just grows innovation. So it's not like you're going to see a big innovation straight away. It creeps in. Another statement If the innovator the person is taking knowledge from if you sat with him or if I sat with him you hadithuka he will tell you if you sat with him as soon as you sat with him he told you his innovation you hadithuka he hath dhurtahu wa farateminhu you would run away from him and you would not want to sit with him wa lakinnu he would tell you the hadithuka he would tell you the hadithuka Feebudui magilisi at the beginning of the gathering the first time that you meet him he will call you to the sunnah this is what he will do to you then you'dkilu then he will put the innovation into you فَلَعَلَّهَةَ تَلْزَمُ قَلْبَكَ فَمَتَهَةَ تَخُرُّجُمِ قَلْبِ And then connect to your heart, and then when would I actually leave your heart? Okay, but what I can see from my personal experience is many of the people giving da'wah, they might not necessarily be clear cut innovators like you're saying, but at the same time, you might not even put them into the category of clearly, as you mentioned, understanding the Qur'an and the sunnah based upon the understanding of the companions. Rather, it's unclear exactly where they fall in between those two groups. Those kind of people, they're still calling you to good deeds. You can listen to them. Okay, that's a very important thing, which is we would have to really ask ourselves, what makes a person be a person who's doing good and what isn't who isn't really doing good? I would say my question would be what your message, who's it following, what protocol is it following, what order in sequence is it following? Are you making the order for the da'wah, are you just making it as you wish? Because for me, da'wah is tawqeefiya, I mean, it's something that's set. You and I can't come and make our way in da'wah. Okay, but when you say for you, that means someone else can have a different opinion. No, I'm saying when the Prophet said, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, enna haida, salatim, mustaqeem, and fattabirud, this is my path, follow it. Okay, there's certain things we'd agree are good deeds. Reading the Qur'an is a good deed, we'd agree on that. And I'm saying that that person should call to the Qur'an, he should call to righteous actions as in plain sunnah, he should call to that. But that shouldn't be the essence of his da'wah. Okay, the essence of his da'wah should be then? Calling to tawheed and calling to the people to stay away from innovation. That's what la ilaha Allah stands on. Imam Musa narrated this in his Sahih, from the story of Anas Ibn Malikin, that the Prophet said, la taqoomu ssa'a, the hour will not strike, hatta la yuqalu fil ardi, until no one is staying on the earth, Allah, Allah. That will come a time when people are not even saying Allah, Allah. Meaning it's become total ignorance of who Allah is and the meaning of Allah and the meaning of la ilaha Allah, people won't even say Allah anymore. And you know why that will come about? It will come about when people start becoming generic in their da'wah. They don't really want to touch the real problems that the community are facing. So let's just be more general. That to be very honest, some speakers, if you actually take their da'wah and you replace the word Allah with God, then a Christian can listen to him. Okay, would you agree that there are some da'wahs out in the world today that are calling to tawheed? No doubt. No doubt about that. So what is wrong with having one speciality calling to tawheed and someone else calling to generic good deeds? What is the problem with that? As I just said, da'wah is not something that you and I choose what we want to start with and how we want to do it. Da'wah is set. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, This ayah says, This is my path. I call to Allah. I call to Allah and who else does the same thing? Those who follow me. So the people have to follow the messenger and how they call to Allah. That's clear in the ayah. The ayah, so you and I know we don't have the rights to come and say, You know, I don't want to call to tawheed. It's a controversial issue. I'm here to bring people together. You know, and I'm going to look for topics that can bridge people. That's a fallacy. That's a mistaken belief. Even in the modern world where we have so many different groups opposing Islam, so many enemies of Islam, so many issues, can't we just come together and work together on that and leave our differences to a side to consider we've got big, big problems that we're facing? That is not the truth when you look at it, because if you look at the great scholars like Ibn-ul-Jawzi, Rahimahullah, Abdul Ghani, Abdul Wahid, Dilma Qadisi, Sheikh-ul-Islami Ibn-utamiya, they said that internal enemy, meaning the innovator, is far worse than the external enemy that's outside. I'll give you an example. If you're on the siege and you have a fortress around you, but there is a person in this building right now who wants to open the window for the disbelievers or the non-Muslims or other people to enter the house, you have to start dealing with this person inside first. So when you try ignoring this person, you say, you know, we will work together on what we agree on and we will put our differences aside on what we differ on, then the truth really is the minute he gets, he will, he will expose the mistakes within Islam and ponder on history and history repeats itself. That's a reality. What destroyed the Abbas-e-Khilafa? There was the Rafidah, who opened the doors for the non-Muslims. Who brought the Tatar into the Muslim world and made the Muslims get killed and massacred? They were the innovators. Who plays Sheikh-ul-Islam? Imam-u-Ali Sunnati wal-Jama'a, Imam-ul-Mubajal, Imam-e-Muhammad-e-Muhammad, may Allah imprison him. Imam-e-Mubaz, let's look at the creation of the Qur'an. Who... Ibn Hazmah, this book is called Al-Fisal, Al-Mila, Al-Ahwa'il, Al-Niham. He mentioned in his book, the people who pushed the ideology that the Qur'an is not preserved while the Rafidah. Ibn Hazmah said this. When they said that the Qur'an was changed by Abu Bakr and Omar, it allowed the non-Muslims to say that your text is not preserved. Why are you talking about us? Even though Allah says in the Qur'an, cooperate with each other upon Bir and Taqwa. You see, how do you reconcile that? That's the... Now, this is very important that's understood correctly. First of all, we have to agree that we, as individuals, we do not like innovation, nor do we like innovators. Okay, agreed. I'm with you on that. If we agree upon that, if there happens a situation, a calamity before the Muslim, and I have been known and I have had a position regarding debunking, dismantling, calling against innovation. I have been known, my position is well known, when it comes to people who go against Allah's commandments, who fully to sins, it's well known. I have defended the Sunnah to my ability. If a calamity before the Muslims, and there's no way that this calamity can be solved unless the Muslims, with their differences come together to solve this issue, shara'an is permissible. There's nothing wrong with this. Right this moment with... But that doesn't mean we overlook our differences. No, not in any way, shape or form. I still have differences with you, and I'm not going to accept that from you. But right now, they're going to close the messengers. And that's a problem you're going to face and I'm going to face. And we take this evidence from Surah al-Hudabiyyah, the Treaty of Hudabiyyah, the Messenger, alaihi salatu wa s-salam, he sat with the non-Muslims and he came to a contract with them and a treaty with them. Ibn al-Qaiman, this is a great book he's had. He mentions that this can be used for the innovators and the fussak, the criminals and the wrongdoers, and even the innovators. He uses that to say that you can sit with them if it has a common good for the Muslims. But that being said, your position, your view, your stance, it is well known regarding innovators. Your position is known regarding innovation itself. You've spent your time spreading the sunnah. And to be very frank with you, to be honest, a lot of people, they don't understand that calling to that sunnah right now. And pushing the sunnah today has become very hard. It's always going to be hard, but it's become even more harder today than any other time historically. Let me quote for you the Hadith of the Prophet, alaihi salatu wa s-salam, what he said. And I want to bring you the Kalam of the ulama and how they understood, how they understood that particular, how they understood that particular hadith. Look what he said, al-Imam al-Sabouniyyah, he said, wa manta masaka liyoma bi sunnah. Anyone who holds on to the sunnah now, he's an Imam of the early generation. I mean, Imit Sunnah. He's talking about him, he's his time. Imagine now, he said, wa manta masaka liyoma bi sunnahi. Anyone who holds on to the sunnah today, which sunnah, bi sunnahi Rasulullah, alaihi salatu wa s-salam, wa amila biha, I implemented, wa staqam alaiha, I steadfast upon it, wa da'a ilaiha, I recuse the people to it, kana adroo who his reward today is, awfara wa akthara, wa mu vast, mu bigger, mu greater, min ajri man jaraa ala haadihi il-jumlati min ala itiqadi fi awa'ili il-islami wal-millah. Then the early generation. Then the companions themselves as well. Why? Idhir rasulul mustafa, because the messenger, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, qaalahi said, lahu for those people is, ajroo khamsi naa, the reward of fifty. Fa qeela the companions they said, khamsi naa min hum, fifty from them, and the Prophet said, naa, no, min kum from you, fifty from the companions. We know that today, the ghurba, the person calling to the sunnah, they're standing up to the sunnah, implementing the sunnah, it's become very hard. Look, Al-Iman al-Sabouni. Is that really the case or stuff? Without the shadow of it. In a modern day world, do you think that calling to the sunnah is a difficult thing? Yeah, mocking, name calling, that's, min maa layan tadhafihi qabshan, as the Arab say, two goats will headbutt on that, as a reality in front of us. Another statement I'm going to mention, insha'Allah, and I think it's important, Al-Iman al-Sabouni mentions, misanadi wujadatan, hatta bala qabnu shihab al-zuhri, from ibn shihab al-zuhri, that he said, ta'alimu sunnahim, teaching one sunnah. Afbalu is more virtuous, min ibadati mi'atei sana, than doing ibadah for two hundred years. And this is the truth, when you look at many people, people are now more fascinated with a person who pray qiyamulayl, a person who fasts the fast of Dawud, and I'm not belittling that. I think it's a righteous action, and I think a Muslim should work to be doing that. I'm not belittling that. But what I'm saying is that people will be mesmerized with that person. They would be mind boggled. They would be gobsmacked and say, wow, this person is righteous. He's the remaining of the companions, the way they deal with him. But if a person stood up and he spent his life and dedicated his energy to warning against innovation, exposing innovators, for them it's like, yeah, all he does is he backbites people. All he does is he backbites people. And that isn't the case. To call to the Sunnah and to offer an innovation was the Dawud Salaf, it was the doing of the Salaf and their way. And the thing is, how would we deal with these texts? Are we going to rub them off the books? We're going to peel them out? This is the reality. You cannot ignore this. These are multitude. I am only taking a pinch of it, because we only have... I think we agree with the issue of innovation. And I think you bought enough evidence and sufficient amount of evidence to prove your point there. The issue still remains, and I'll go back to it again, that you're sitting here saying that someone who is calling people to do good deeds, as well as Tawhid, but Tawhid is not their main da'wah, but they're still calling people to read the Qur'an, be good to their parents. OK, you know, you're repeating this point. Let me give you some examples. This point you keep stressing on. As you say, they're actually doing something wrong and bad. OK, let me give you a story. The story of Shala Ta'ayla will shine some light for you. OK, again, as I said, I'm going to be evenly like him every single thing I bring. I'm going to bring stories from the books of Hadid, from the tarajim of the scholars, the biography of the scholars and quotes of people who will and I cannot learn to say, we're not like even a nails. And before I mention these quotes, I want to say something. I want to say, don't judge and memorize this principle. And no, nothing can we can never make a judgment based on something. Be a 30 when it is based on the outcome and the results that somebody produces. Do another if you want to do what we need to look at your principles that you stand on. And what are you what's your message? If you're doing humanitarian aid and you're supporting the needy, that's good. That is good. But Bill Gates does that as well. Warren Buffett does that as well. That doesn't that doesn't make their message right. Does that make sense? Missionaries do that as well. They go to Africa and they feed the needies. They build wells, but they don't call into the Quran. Exactly. That doesn't make these people. So let me let me I'm going to show you examples. Because these believers now I'm going to show you people are believers. And he mentioned, he said, Canal Mansoor Abid A'basi leader. He used to venerate you. Abdimu bin U'baidin. He used to venerate Amr bin U'baidin. Who's Amr bin U'baidin? Amr bin U'baidin is the leader, the head, the head. He was the head of the deviated group we refer to as the Mu'tazila. OK. The Mu'tazila are the people who are clearly innovators. We're again to remind you, we're talking about people who are not open about the innovation. We don't know whether they're clearly innovators. They're halfway in between. We're not clear about them. That's what we're talking about. I'm going to come to that point. That's a very good point. I see where you come. It's a good point. But Mansoor, Abid A'basi leader, he said, you know, he's saying the leader of the Muslims got fooled with Amr bin U'baidin. Just like you're seeing this person that you're talking about to be a person of good. What's the problem? He's going into good. Abid A'basi leader felt the same thing about Amr bin U'baidin. This leader from the head of the Mu'tazila. He saw nothing wrong with him. Look what he did. Abr bin U'baidin entered onto the leader of Abid A'basi leader. They had a conversation and when he was about to leave, Abid A'basi leader said, I'm going to give you something. Yeah, what money do you need to give money to him? And he looked and he said, I haven't come here for money and I don't want your money. And he walked away from it. And it's more detailed story, but I don't want to go into it. As he was walking away, Abid A'basi leader, he said, All of them walk away. All of them ask for help. Other than Amr bin U'baidin. All of them have an ulterior motive. All of them have something they want. Look what he said. But Amr bin U'baidin is a real man. He's a real righteous man. What's wrong with him? That's what he's trying to say. Look what the Abid said. He said, he got deceived by the astessism of Amr bin U'baidin. He saw Amr bin U'baidin to be a person who doesn't want the dunya once the Akhira. And so he thought to himself, oh, this guy's good. What he got deceived by the sincerity of Amr bin U'baidin. And he was heedless to his innovation. So many people are looking at this man in the good things that he sees. And he says, but there's innovation here right now. Another story. That's not that's not my question. You understand that, right? It does answer the question because this person's calling to Salah and calling to Zakat, calling to Psalm, according to the recitation. No clear innovation upon them. No clear innovation. They just haven't made it clear on the Sunnah. Yeah. And they're not calling to Taukhid as much as you'd like them to. They're calling to Taukhid, but they're not as much as you'd like them to. But they're still calling to good deeds. I mean, when we say, when we say, OK, a person's calling to Taukhid, I myself am not saying that, you know, how many times, how many videos have he said, has he said it into. OK, it's not the main call. It's not the main call, Da'wah. Then I'm now saying that he's not following the procedure and the sequence set by the Prophet. OK. I can question him because the Da'wah of the messenger, Aleyhi Salatu Salam, was built upon Taukhid. That was what he was built on. I mean, let's take a Nabilah Nuh, for an example. So what do you know about his message? He was calling people for 950 years only to worship Allah alone. How much people followed Nabilah Nuh? Allah says, only little believed in Nabilah Nuh. He didn't care about numbers. The people who followed Nuh was a mountain that can go on an ark with animals in there. You know, animals were in there as well. He, that Nabilah Nuh, we know his message was built upon at Taukhid. You don't know anything more than that about him. So how can I see a Da'i? And I don't see any of that. All I see is talking about political engagement. He's talking, he's an activist. He's talking about social problems. Only, only. Fair point. OK. I understand. Now, that's a fair point. But even like you just mentioned numbers just now, some of these speakers who, like you're saying, don't necessarily focus on Taukhid, but they're still calling it to good deeds. Some of them have millions and millions of views on their videos and millions and millions of followers on social media. So you're sitting here and saying that Allah is misguiding millions of Muslims, not because they're drinking alcohol or they're falling into zinnah, but because they want to watch an Islamic lecture? Well, I think that that point is O'hammin Bayt al-Ankabut. It's a very weak argument. The reason why I say this is a weak argument is because I mean, I had priests and Christians when they argue, they say the same argument they say. So you Muslims are trying to say that Allah was falling the Christians when he changed Jesus into whoever he changed him into. And he wants to fall the Christians. Allah has a way, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, itibara nintihan, he tests his creation. Allah tests Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. And the way Allah tests Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is good and bad. When Iblewukum bi-sharri wa l-khayri fitnatan wa ilaynat wurja'un. Just because you have numbers doesn't indicate that you are upon the truth. And it doesn't mean Allah is guiding or misguiding. Why? Expand on that. Because the Prophet, as I said in the hadith, he said that the ummah, seventy-three groups are going to go into the house fire, except one, not seventy-two, are going to go into the house fire. One could be the biggest. That goes against many of the textual evidences, which Allah Ta'ala says, وقليل النعبادي الشخور. Little from my slaves are show gratitude. ولكن أكثر الناس لا يعلمون it. The majority of the people don't know. وإن تطر أكثر من في الأرض يضيلك عن سبيل الله. If you obey the overwhelming majority of people, they will misguide you. Rather, the Messenger, صلى الله عليه وسلم, he told us in the hadith, صحيحين. The Prophet, he said, عورضة عالية الأمم. Their nations were presented to me. فرأيت النبيا ومعه روحيط. I saw a prophet and with him was a small number. والنبي ومعه الرجل والرجلان. I saw a prophet, he has one or two people with him. And then he said ورأيت النبيا and I saw a prophet وليس معه أحد. There's no one with him. So what are we going to say now? That that prophet was misguiding the people, that his message was wrong? Of course not. So we can't say that. Number doesn't really show anything. And many of the salaf, they said أنت الجماعة وإن كنت وحدك. You are the Jama'a even if you're by yourself. Number is nothing. If we take that argument, then the Christians should be. The Christians should be upon the haqq. They are more than us in number. Yeah, OK, I agree. Do you think, on a slight tangent, do you think your stance is a little bit immature? I've heard some other people who have also held the same stance as you, but they feel like they've grown out of it. They've matured and therefore they've left that stance. You see, that's the sad reality. It's actually not maturity. That person hasn't matured. That's what my honest answer is. That person has actually gone astray. And I said at the beginning of my discussion مَا يُجَادِلُ فِي آيَاتِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَلَا يَغْرُرُكَ تَقَلُّوبُمْ فِي الْبِلَادِ The people are turning away from this can only be As the Prophet said, صلى الله عليه وسلمة فَإِلَّمْ يَسْتَجِبُوا لَكَ فَعَلَبْ أَنَّ مَا يَتْتَبِعُونَ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ If they don't obey you, Mohamed, in all of that which you said, then remember that they follow their desires. You see, I asked those same people questions. I surrender and I give in and I say, you know what, I am immature and your stance is maturity. Okay, how do I not know? You're going to say 10 or 15 or 20 years from now that I was immature again. Now stance of mine was wrong again. Then my current stance is exactly I see because I've done it before. Exactly, you said it before. And this is a statement that Hudayfah Ibn-ul-Yaman, رضي الله تعالى, and he mentioned before. He said that from a person's destruction and from a person really being destroyed is that you accepted something once upon a time and you saw it to be good and now you're rejecting it. And the opposite, you are rejecting what you once upon a time accepted. And then he said something powerful. He said, Don't change colors. Don't become this and that. The religion of Allah is one. It doesn't make sense that you're changing so much but the religion is really one. But the reason they're changing is because their knowledge is growing. They're studying year on year, year on year. They're becoming more knowledgeable and they've seen the errors of their previous ways. Some of these speakers have attended some of the most prestigious universities in the world and they've continued to study after that and seen the errors of their past ways. Not if they've studied in places that doubts have been brought forward to them and they presented themselves to, and they've become misguided from that. That doesn't really mean that they've matured. What's happened to them is they've been indoctrinated and shaytan has had his way with him. Because the Prophet, peace be upon him, he told us, the one who tosses and turns the hat, he says, Don't turn your heart on your religion. And in the Qur'an, Allah says, Don't turn your heart on your religion. And in the Qur'an, Allah says, Don't turn your heart on your religion. And in the Qur'an, Allah says, Allah says, People go and they change. You know, Wasim, Ata was from the students of Hassan al-Basri. You know, and he left Hassan al-Basri's gathering, walked away from him. How can someone so knowledgeable be misguided like that? How can that happen? I mean, shaytan is, if we say knowledge, shaytan gathered the most knowledge. I mean, he's lived through everything. He's been in Jannah. He saw, he heard, he spoke to Allah Azza wa Jalla. You see, it's arrogance and stubbornness. And this guidance that you have to understand is, and not give you guidance. There's no one who can give it to you. This is Allah's will. I mean, look at Abu Talib. Anyone better than Abu Talib when he did for the Prophet, alaihi s-salatu wa s-salam? He's uncle. He's uncle. Abu Talib. Abu Talib made poetry for the Prophet. He said, If I wasn't scared of the blame of the blameless, and those who were going to criticize me for it, you see? So, Abu Talib was boycotted from Quraish for Nabilah Muhammad. He was thrown into a valley. He starved. He was boycotted. He went through Hajj. And Allah said to the Prophet, Imagine if Nabilah Muhammad is trying to the truthful, the most honest, the most caring individual is giving you a message of Islam and you didn't take it from him. You've known him to be trustworthy. He is your son. And you choose not to take his message. To be honest, that person would take a message from a scholar, a student of knowledge. So it's not that the person is matured, to be very honest. It's given it fancy names that I've matured out of this and I've become matured. It's like calling alcohol juice and it's calling drugs, food and calling interest, calling riba, interest. When did it become interest? Allah is fighting with it, subhanahu wa ta'ala. So when they call it maturity, it's given a fancy name. And this is something known by Shaytan. Yusam mounahu bireil ismihi. They give it a name other than it. The real name is misguided. You've just become misguided. That's what's happened to you. You have not become mature. How far do we take this? Because you mentioned at the start, before we spoke, you said that you've mentioned a line of poetry which when something along the lines of everybody makes mistakes when they speak. So someone falls into a mistake. Someone falls into an error and we label him an innovator. Other people fall into mistakes. Other people fall into errors and it's just a mistake. You know, it's still from Ahlul Sunnah. Why is this contradiction present? You see, that's a very good question. We look at no'iyah to al-khata. We look at the type of mistake that the person falls into. There's no one who's free from mistakes. Wallahi, everyone is going to do mistakes. Everyone's going to come with shortcomings. You see, the issue isn't the person just done a mistake. It's what type of mistake have they come with? So we look at that type of mistake. We observe it. We analyze it. We look at it. If that mistake has reached innovation, we deal with it like an innovation. What kind of mistake? Give me an example of a mistake that reaches innovation. An aqida mistake? For example, a person says that Abu Bakr and Umar and Othman and Aliyah all in the Hellfire, for instance. Or he says Abu Bakr and Umar are in the Hellfire. That's an extreme. That's a credo issue, right? So it's a fundamental issue. This person is going against, right? Yeah. So, or a person says, I don't want to take single iteration in aqida. Okay. The name's an attribution of Allah. Is this a fundamental issue? A fundamental issue. Imam Anno, we fell into that. Were we still calling from Al-Sunnah? Beautiful. This is a good question now. Now, you see, you're asking a question of whether we're going to apply this issue of taking a person out of the Sunnah or not applying it on Nauwi. I'm talking about, first of all, taqsil. Fundamentally, we have to, first of all, agree that going against Allah's names and attributes is an innovation. The second question is, does it apply to Nauwi? Okay. Yeah, the first one we agree upon. So I want to bring a principle out of here, which is not every individual who falls into innovation is everybody who does innovation is not an innovator. Not everybody who does an innovation is an innovator. No. Well, explain what you mean by that. The same is when everybody who does kufr is not a kafir. Okay, fine. Explain what you mean by that. Beautiful. If a person goes against Allah's names and attributes Yes. and they fall short on that. Which is an innovation. It's an innovation. Okay. I said before to you that the proof has to be established against them. So we have to go to them and tell them what they are upon. It's wrong. And it's incorrect. Remember, there are two things, three points. Number one. If a person goes against Ahlu Sunnah in their source of evidence, where they take their evidence from, where they deduct their ruling from. Which is? It's called Masr At-Talaqee. It's Al-Kitab, Al-Sunnah and Al-Ijmaa. The Quran, Al-Sunnah and consensus. And the consensus. Okay. Those are the three evidences. Yeah, if someone... The Quran evidence for us, following the Quran, the evidence that we need to follow the Quran is Allah's Tabarakat-A'ala is Ayah where he says, اِتَّبِعُ مَا اُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمِ الْرَّبِكُمْ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُمِ دُونِهِ اَوْلِيَاَ Follow that which has been sent to you from your Lord and what has been sent from our Lord is the Quran and the Sunnah. Both of them were sent from them. Because وَمَا يَمْتِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَاءِنْ هُوَا إِلَّا وَحْيُنْ يُوْحَى فَسُنَّةُ النَّبِ وَحْيُنْ ثَانِنْ عَلِيْهِ مَا قَطْ أُطْلِقَ الْوَحْيَانِ The Sunnah is the second form of revelation. Pay attention. The third thing is the consensus. What's the evidence for consensus? English? Allah says anyone who goes against the path of the Prophet and the path of the Messenger and the path of the believers. When this ayah came down, the believers was who? The companions. Good. So going against, what did Allah say after that? Then if you go against their path, then whichever destructive path that you've taken were going to keep you on that way. Meaning you're going to be upon your destruction and you're going to be upon your misguidance. You went against three things. The Qur'an, the Sunnah and the way of the early generation. Allah says in another ayah, وَسَابِقُونَ الْأَوَلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُونَ بِإِحْسَانِ الرَّبْيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ So again, Allah says those who go and follow the Muhajireen and the Ansar. Allah said, I am pleased with the Muhajireen and I am pleased with the Ansar and I am pleased with those who follow them. So if you're not from it, we're not the Muhajireen. We didn't get that chance. And we're not from the Ansar. So we can only be from the third option, which is to follow them. So if a person goes against Ahlu Sunnah in those three, the Qur'an, the Sunnah, the Ijmaa, then we don't have to establish the proof against them. No problem. That's it. If a person goes against Ahlu Sunnah in five fundamental issues, the first one is Allah's names and attributes. Or he goes against Ahlu Sunnah in the issues of the companions. Or he goes against Ahlu Sunnah, for instance, in the issues of promises and wa'ad wa'u'id. So the issues of the companions, the issues of wa'ad wa'u'id, promises and rulings that are in the Qur'an, asmaa wa lahkam, names and rulings that are in the Qur'an, or the fifth is qadaaan qadar. Okay. If a person goes against Ahlu Sunnah in those five, the proof needs to be established on. Okay, so now we went against Ahlu Sunnah in one of those five. Which is Allah's names and attributes. Yes, correct. But not in all its totality. He affirmed Allah's above throne, Nauwi. Okay, there was certain aspects. But there were some characteristics, of course, in his shara'ah of Sahih Muslim, in which he did do ta'wil in, which he didn't go according to the set of regarding it. But we will say that that is a mistake that came from Nauwi. But we won't say that he fell into innovation. Why? Because the person who says that would have to prove to me that the proof was established against Nauwi and he chose not to follow it. We're saying that in all the years Imam Nauwi was alive and given da'wah to Islam and being involved in Islam, the truth wasn't established against him? You believe that? Of course, I'm gonna have to have a personal thought of him. I see a man who's explaining the second most authentic book. I see a man who wrote serving the hadith of the Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. I saw a man who dedicated his life to explaining the textual evidences. That being said, he really loved and was passionate about the Sunnah of the Prophet. That being said. Okay. If a person wants to take him out of Ahlu Sunnah on a fundamental thing he went against Ahlu Sunnah, which is one of the five, he would have to clearly prove to me that Nauwi, the proof was established and he became stubborn from it. Okay. If he doesn't, I'm not gonna base it on speculation in all those years and it clearly proved to me that it was established on him. Beautiful. I applied the same thing to the speaker that we were speaking about earlier. Sair. Who is not, who is not Qunis Tawhid as much as you'd like him to, but he's also not open at innovation. Why can't we use the same Qusnadan for him? Beautiful. Has the proof been established against him? Have you spoken to him? That's the point now. Jamil, I agree with you. If a speaker is speaking and he falls short on a concept from the usul of Ahlu Sunnah, the proof needs to be established on him. Okay. To Qamu alayl hujja, the proof needs to be established on him and the mahadja, whatever is blinding him needs to be removed from him. If that hasn't been done, then no one has any rights to label him as an innovator. Okay. And when we're talking about someone who is not calling to Tawhid as much as you'd like, which one of those five does this fall into? Azin. Azin, we have a speaker whose main Da'wah is not called to Tawhid, but he's called into other good deeds. And you said to be an innovator, you have to fall in a position to one of these five things. So he's going against Masayi al-Asma'i wal-Ahkam because the word Da'wah is a shabu'it term used in the shari'ah. It has a definition. It means to call the people to Allah, Azwajal, and not to call the people to yourself so you can get more followers. Because the ayah says, qul hadihi sabili, adroo ilallahi, I call the people to Allah, not yourself. Okay. So if I see you calling to yourself and I think there's a big flaw in your Da'wah, you need to be calling to Allah. And what does it mean calling to Allah? You're calling to Yisrobu biya, you're calling to Yisrobu biya, you're calling to Azmah al-Sifat. You don't have to use those terms that I just used. You don't have to use those terms. But you just have to use the concept that's behind those terms. Okay. Okay, I understand. Now we're talking about someone who is openly calling to the innovation. According to your stance, we are not allowed to take knowledge from them. Agreed? No. Okay, then why was I in your class and you were teaching on Maulakaat? By Imam Ali Al-Jewaini. Yes. Two responses. First of all, So just to clarify, he was not just an Ash'ari, he was the head of the Ash'ari. So let me make something clear. Nawawi is not an Ash'ari. Okay. But Abu Hamid al-Ghazari, Abu Ma'ali Al-Jewaini, Al-Fakhruddin al-Razi, Abu Bakr bin Al-Fawrakan, Abu Bakr al-Baqil Lani, these are Ash'ari. Okay. But Nawawi is not an Ash'ari. Ibn Hadir is not an Ash'ari. And Bayhaq is not an Ash'ari. Okay, and you taught Al-Balqat, which is one of the ones that you just said is an Ash'ari. Mr. Sa'chu. Okay. How do you explain this? Two responses. The first response that Sheikh al-Islam ibn Taymiyyah gave was that Al-Imam al-Abi, Abu Ma'ali Al-Jewaini did repent at his last moments. Okay. That's one statement. Even though that itself, min n'ahiyat al-amalat al-ilmiyyah, to be very honest, Sheikh al-Islam Taymiyyah's statement, fee hin natham. There is a look to it. Because he only repented from one form of innovation to another form of innovation. Which was what? He left Tawil and he went to Tafwil. So he's still an innovator. So he still... But it doesn't help you. Yeah, so I mean... But Sheikh al-Islam ibn Taymiyyah did say that. Okay, fine. The second thing is a concept that we need to understand now. You asked me, can a person go and take knowledge from an innovator? Yes. Okay. And I said to you what? You said no. I said to you no. Jameel. Now, because the asal is that it's not permissible. Okay. The asal is what? It's not permissible. It's not permissible. Every issue that we give a general ruling for, there are exceptions. Okay. And you can never use those exceptions to dismiss and dismantle and push away the foundation that we've agreed on. I'll give an example. Is drinking alcohol haram? Yes. What about if a person is in a moment where they have to drink alcohol? It's necessitous. What about if I use that as an argument and say that Hamrat is now permissible in this situation? So it's generally permissible now. And I make that a general ruling. It's not now. So when we use the books of the innovators in situations that the scholars have seen that this book, even though the author is an innovator, but what is being taught here, what is within this book has not got a problem for the people to study it. There's not a problem. Because the truth to remember is a lost property of the believer. So you take the good and you leave the bad is what you're saying. But when we say take the good and take the bad, we're saying that the person can't determine what is good from what is bad. Yeah, agreed. Otherwise you can't. Otherwise you can't. You might fall into the bad if you can't determine. Okay, I agree. So if you say to me that a student of knowledge who's now starting to seek knowledge, he can take the good from an innovator and leave off the bad that is with him, then I would say is he a student or is he the teacher? So how does he know what is good from what is bad? Okay, I agree with you. And he goes against the concept of a student towards his teacher anyways. Why would you seek knowledge from somebody who you believe is misguided in the first place? I say the same thing about Waraqat. That's the point. You're not taking Waraqat because of the author who wrote it. You're taking Waraqat because the people of the Sunnah told you to read it. Okay. But here you're sitting under a person of innovation. No one's told you, no. You can't determine what is right from what is wrong. You're a student of knowledge. I think this is Qiyasun al-Faniq. You're using two different situations and you're trying to give the same ruling towards it. Okay, I agree with you that. If obviously if you're not knowledgeable enough to determine what is good and what is bad, then you can't do that because you might fall into the bad. Plus, why would you even want to that you've got many people who teach this subject anyways? You can study Arabic from somebody else or you can study your manners. That opens up a door to another issue. Waraqat, for example, is a Kitab in Usul al-Fiq. Why are we still relying on quote-unquote innovators in sciences so important like Usul al-Fiq? Have we not got anyone from Ahlu Sunnah to learn this from? But I'm not going to be taking the book itself. I'm taking the shawrooh and explanation of the people of the Sunnah. But I think the point I really want to draw here is that, you know, a book that a scholar or a person of innovation wrote and that book itself has been told by people of Sunnah. They said, this book, we've looked at it. We've verified it. We checked it. Even though the author is wrong, you can study it. And these are the points that we've underlined. Then comparing that to going to the door of Khalid or Zaid or Bakr, Minan Nasi, from the people who no one's told you who he is. You just sat with him and you take knowledge from him and you're a beginner. And so you'll say, I know he's got innovation, but I'm only going to what? Take the good and leave the evil. But then that's the question. Should you even sit with somebody who you're questioning his aqida, you're questioning your own teacher? Should you question your teacher in the first place? Well, isn't that bad manners? Yeah, it is. Isn't that, the poet did say, if you don't believe in your teacher and you don't have faith in him, to be very honest, you don't benefit from him. It's when you lack faith in your teacher, that's when you tend to not benefit from him the way you should. Therefore, the same can be said about the Arabic language. It's just a language. We could go to a non-Muslim university and learn Arabic as a language. Therefore, what's the harm in taking it from him? See, this is the difference. Taking knowledge from the disbeliever and taking knowledge from the innovator. Again, it's a different situation. The disbeliever, I'm not taking a religious concept from him. Usual. You might be taking atheism from him. Well, I'm not allowed to then, to study from him. You're not allowed to? No, of course. Every disbeliever comes with baggage. Oh, I could actually... Christianity, Judaism, atheism, something. Yeah, I cannot study from a person who's teaching me corruption in my belief. Even a language. He's not teaching you your belief. He's teaching you a language. And he's bringing doubts to me. Not necessarily. He's just teaching you a language. So Arabic, for example, can we take that... Can we learn Arabic from an innovator? You see, you're asking me a specific situation for general ruling. Okay. I would say to you, know that it's not allowed. As a general ruling? Yeah, but there could be a particular person I might say to them, you can go study there. Why is it not allowed? We're just learning a language. It doesn't state as a language because the person is a Muslim. Yes. A person who's a Muslim is closer to you than a non-Muslim. So you kind of... He will push you. He will give you that feeling. He's a Muslim brother of yours. He has salams. You give him salams. Second thing is, I mentioned the statement of Imam al-Shukr, the Rahim of Allah, where it weakens the heart. It weakens the what? The heart to his statements. So when he brings an Arabic example and he brings the ayah of the Rahman and the Al-Rashistawa, let's say the word Istawa means isstawa and he throws it in. And you're just a young, basic Arabic lana or he tells you that the kalam, inna kalama la fil fuadi wa innama ju'ilalli sanu lima fil fuadi dalila that speech doesn't come out, it's what's inside you, kalamun nafsi and you just take that in. You take it in. Even al-warakat, a person shouldn't study al-warakat by themselves. They should be taught al-warakat by a person of the sunnah who will correct the book and tell you what's right from what is wrong in it. I don't think anybody would go and open al-warakat by themselves and understand what's been said there. So are you really studying al-warakat or are you studying from a person of the sunnah? Okay, understood. Do you think your stance is a little harsh? And especially what I mean by that is applying it in the modern day world. According to you, you shouldn't take knowledge from an innovator. You shouldn't even sit within an innovator. Some of my family members, potentially, as an example, for instance, may be classified according to you as an innovator. I can't sit with them. Wa sahibumafid dunya ma'arufah I befriended them in the worldly issues that you need to deal with them. They have rights of a relative with you. Qaraba, laishak, the family members, they have rights on you, even if they're the worst of the worst. They have rights on you in the sense that Qaraba doesn't go, but they lose the allegiance and the religious connection with you anymore. The minute you see a person from Africa, the other side of the world, from where you're from, who's holding onto the sunnah is more closer to you than your misguided family member, for instance, your brother who's misguided. That doesn't mean that you cut the ties of kinship. See, we can't dismiss one evidence for the other. Okay, you have to agree with me. Allah says, You can't cut the ties of kinship with your family. I mean, the disbelief that Allah, Ta-Barak, Ta-Alayhi says, Wa injahadaka ala antushrikabim alaisa laka bi'ilmun fa la tutra'umak wa sahibumafid dunya ma'arufah Befriend them in good. Even if they're telling you to go against Allah's religion, befriend them in good. In other words, whatever good that's there, befriend them. Whenever there isn't anything to befriend them with, just leave them. Family members. Yeah. So that's my answer. But it doesn't dismiss the concept of and the consensus that I brought to you that the Salaf brought to stay away from the innovators. So if your brother, for example, is preaching innovation to you, you don't say, he's my brother. I'm going to sit with him. I have to sit with him. No, you walk away from him. You don't sit with him. But tomorrow you go to him and you greet him and you ask him how his children are doing and you leave him again now. Okay. How far do we take this? For example, you have someone who is openly upon the sun now, but they might do conferences with people who are questionable. Do we boycott him? Is he a person now a person of innovation? You see, if a person is calling to the sun now and he warns against innovation and he's known for his views to be upright and steadfast and he's in accordance to that which the pious predecessors were upon, we may differ on an individual. Okay. We might differ on this person whether these principles apply on this person or not. I might say, he's a misguided person. You might say, well, I don't see that applying on him. You've misunderstood it. Maybe Abdul-Rahman, I think you have a personal issue against him. Now, just because we've differed on the application of these texts on this particular person doesn't mean we've differed upon the principles. Okay. Yeah, I understand that. I agree. So that's happened in the time of the Salaf. They differed on the individuals. You'll find that Imam Shafi'ah would praise this person and then you'll find that Imam Ahmad criticized that person. And the general principle for this kind of situation, someone who is upon the Sunnah but doing conferences with other people who are questionable, the general principle is? No, he shouldn't. He shouldn't do that? He shouldn't. But he doesn't even agree with you that this person is an innovator in the first place. He doesn't agree with you. Clarify that for me. I don't understand it. The people he's doing a conference with... So you're saying that exactly. So my point is that you're saying that a person should not work with an innovator. Correct? This is what I'm saying. You're saying. So if me and you both agree that this person is an innovator and then you're working with him, that's now a problem. That's a problem. But you're saying, I don't believe this person is an innovator, Aslan. Okay. I do believe that if a person says, this is the innovator. But I don't believe this person said that. And I'm saying, no, I believe he said it. Do you see my point? Yes. So there could be a situation where the person who's working with the people in the conference, he doesn't believe them to be innovators, but you do. Yeah. And therefore you think, ah, you're working with... But we don't differ on principle, me and this person. Okay, yeah, okay. Me and this person, we both agree, for instance, that you can't go against a oppressive leader who's not a disbeliever. Okay. We both agree on that. Okay? Okay. And that's something mutual agreement, both of us. But there's a person who's going to do a conference with and that person is going to do the conference with, believes that you can go against the leader, you know what? If he's an oppressive leader. Okay. I then said, actually don't go to that person because it's what he believes. He says to me, I don't agree with this. Right, right. Your application... Not that I don't agree with the principle. I agree the principle is misguided. I don't agree that this brother believes this. That's mutually, that's happened. You can't change that. That's happened through Islamic history, that has happened through the time of the Selef. They differ on individuals. Like I can give you many examples. Yahum Al-Ma'in is criticised in Imam Shafiq. Ahmad Ibn Ahmad did not accept that from him. See my point? Yeah, yeah, I understand. Imam Bukhari was criticised by Yahum Al-Duhali. No one accepted it from him. It's happened, people have misplaced particular rulings on people. That has happened. There's no denying of that. Okay. But if you and I start discussing whether going against oppressive leader, for instance, who's not a disbeliever, who's an oppressive leader, you believe that's... You can. Now I have a problem with you because of what you believe. The assal that you believe is wrong. Okay, fine. So if there is a masjid, for example, that is clearly upon innovation and we agree that they're upon innovation, I can't cooperate with them. We shouldn't cooperate with them. We shouldn't give da'wah to them. Oh, you should definitely give da'wah to every and every person. That's what we mentioned. But not a joint conference where we're together, we're sitting next to each other. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't engage with them and you shouldn't... No, definitely you shouldn't. But what do you... But there are times I told you, situations that may arise, I want this to be put in correct context, they may arise, Maslal-i-A'am, Mahf other Muslims, a great benefit for the Muslims, where Muslims are losing their masjids and this is causing a problem to the Muslim community. So they come together and they voice their opinion to push this away and repell it against themselves as a joint force to remove this. This la'a-shakka, you can fall under wa ta'awonu a'alil birri wa taqwa wa la'a ta'awonu a'alil itmi wa l-u'idwan. But you as an individual, don't believe that the Deo Bandi and the Barelwi and all of these are guided. You believe they're misguided? They're upon innovation. They are from the 72... In the half-life, that's what you believe. That's your belief. But I'm working with them right now because of the truth. I'm trying to spread haqq. The haqq is what's going to prosper here. I'm not doing it for this person. I'm trying to repel a harm that is there that I think should be removed. That is shari. The Prophet did that, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, and he did it with the non-Muslims. He did it with Quraish. He signed a treaty with them and Ibn al-Qaim, who I don't think anybody should question his knowledge, had said that. He took from that. But when you say a person is not calling to the Sunnah, he's not calling to Tahrir. He doesn't preach the haqq. He only talks about generic issues. And then I see him every conference. He's with the Deo Bandis. He's with the Barelwis. He's with them. And he goes, we have to look at the unity of the Muslims. I now really question you. What are you about? What are you talking about? Because I don't see from your message Da'wah to al-Ambiyyah you are also the message that the prophets and the rightly guided came with. We don't know if Hussnadan that he's giving Da'wah to those people? That doesn't dismiss them in fact that he's not calling to the message of al-Islam in the way that the prophet did. Kind of bad to that point, isn't it? Definitely. Your message is, your message itself, before you, we talk about who you're associating with, you yourself, your message is not what the message of the prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was. Are you with me? Yeah. I mean, look at Nabilullah Yusuf. He's in prison. The prisoners that were in prison with Yusuf, they saw a dream. And when they saw the dream, they asked him for the interpretation of the dream. Nabilullah Yusuf did not give them the response and he didn't give them the interpretation of the dream until he said, what? Ya sahibah, he sees Jinn-e-arbabu, mutafarrikuna khairun amillahi l-wahid al-qahar. He spoke straight away, he said, before I answer your question, Tawheed. Tawheed. Okay. I still feel like you're holding a very, very harsh, staunch view. According to you, we can't differ on anything in the religion. We always have to be this, we have to be robotic and agree on every single thing. What can we differ on what comes? No, no, definitely. That's not what I'm saying. And Allah, Tawheed al-hari, says in the Qur'an, wa laya za'aluna muqtarefeena illa ma-r-raha ma-rabbuq. The people are going to differ. Differences is you and I, black and white. You know, there's differences. Allah says, wa-khtilafu al-sina tikum wa-arwani kum. I speak a different language to you. Differences is there. Every difference is madmim, blame-worthy. Okay. So what are the permissible types of difference? Beautiful. That's the good thing now. The difference that we consider to be difference is that which does not oppose another textual evidence. Also, it is not something that is strange that hasn't been heard of nor has been brought forward by the pious predecessors. So if you're taking an opinion within the time of the Salaf, they had two or three views in this issue. You chose one of those views and we differed. Then that issue is a difference of opinion which is valid. It's called khilaf and it's called each tihad more like. Sa'ikh. And so I on the other hand, meaning permitted, meaning acceptable. One of us is wrong and one of us is right. We just can't put our thumb, each one is saying that of course my one is right. But it gives us that right to love one another to actually say, you know what? You got Ibn Mas'ud in this issue and I have Ibn Abbas in this issue. Prime example. Ibn Mas'ud and Abbas differed upon an interpretation of the verse. O la, misdum un nisaa, the ayaa. Ya ladin amun idhaa qumtum inna sraati faksir uujuhakum wa idhaakum ila al maraafiq, wa masahrubi al uusikum, wa arujilakum ila ka'abin. Wa inkutum junuban fataharu, wa inkutum maradaw, wa ala safarin, wa uja'a, habi'um ikum al ga'id. O la, misdum un nisaa, lambs, what does it mean in this ayaa? Ibn Mas'ud and Abbas have two different, it's tafsir. Ibn Mas'ud said, he al lambs means touching a woman. Ibn Mas'ud said that. Abdullah ibn Abbas said it means sexual intercourse. So that means that the woman, if you touch a woman, she'll break your wall door. According to Ibn Mas'ud's interpretation. And according to Ibn Abbas, now it doesn't, only it has to be sexual intercourse with a woman. Now somebody takes the view of Ibn Mas'ud and someone takes the view of Ibn Abbas. Of course, I'm of the view of Ibn Abbas. And that's the view I'm gonna push and that's the view I'm gonna, you know. But on the other hand, I won't say that the person who takes the view of Ibn Mas'ud is misguided, he's corrupted, he should be boycotted for that belief. No, that's a khilaa. That's a jtiha, don't say it. It's a difference of opinion, which is valid. And it's present at the time of the Salaf and Shafi, and the Madab and the Shafi, this is what they talk, this is acceptable. The other issue is, for example, do you put your knees down or do you put your hands down first in the, when you go towards to the sujood? That's another difference of opinion, which is valid. Okay, fine. But we can't differ upon Yes, because that difference hasn't occurred before us. Exactly. Okay, but at the same time, with your kind of view and particularly when it comes to dealing with innovators, don't you feel like you're restricting yourself to maybe three or four shayyuf in the world and you're being fanatical towards them? Whoever they declare to be an innovator, you're with them. No, that's not the case. And there are people who are like that, I agree, and I'm definitely not like that. I actually believe that Rulama of the Sunnah are all over the world. Some who I know and some I don't know. And the ones that I know, I hope are more than the ones I know. And I actually believe that if a person, he bases his love on his hate, his allegiance on individuals, then that person is actually innovating himself. Okay. And I'm gonna read the statement of Imam Shaykh-ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah. Ibn Taymiyyah said, for man ja'ala shaqsa min al-asqasi, anyone who takes a particular person, ghayra rasoolillah, other than the messenger, sallallahu alayhi wa sallamah, man a'habbahu, anyone who loves that person, wa wa a'faqqu, and agrees with that person, kana min ahlu sunnah, he says, oh yeah, he's from ahlu sunnah. Why? Because he agrees with my sheikh. Anyone who does that and says, your ahlu sunnah, because you agreed with our sheikh, you agreed with our imam, anyone who does that, Shaykh-ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah said, wa man khalafa wa an anyone who opposes that sheikh, you say he's an innovator because you oppose the sheikh, wa man khalafa wa kana min ahlu al-bida'ati, wa al-fulqati, that you're an innovator, you're causing disunity to the ummah because you are against our imam, kama yujad wa dahlika fi tawa'if, as it has, this is present in some deviated groups in the religion, wa ghayri dahlika an adhan that, kana min ahlu al-bida'i wa dalali wa attafarq, you are from innovators now, you are misguided, of course they are. Anyone who bases love and hate on other than the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallamah, and that which the ummah have united and say agreed upon, anyone who bases love and hate on other than the Quran and the sunnah, and that which the ummah have united upon, then he is from min ahlu al-bida'i, wa dalali wa al-fulqah, okay? I'm wa attafarruq, he is a person of the, whether he screams I'm from the people of the sunnah and I am from the imams of the sunnah and I'm upon salafiya and I'm this and that, he can give to himself those fancy names, he is an innovator himself, he is misguided himself, and he is from ahlu al-fulqah, those ahlu tafarruq. So that's something I really want people to understand. There are scholars of the sunnah in India, there are scholars in the sunnah in Europe, there are scholars in the sunnah in America, Europe, all of it, I don't know, I can't, I cannot eliminate everything, there could be scholars of the sunnah in America, there could be scholars in China, there could be scholars in Australia, there could be scholars of the sunnah in, what do you call it, Africa, I can't speak, and just because I don't know something, as the ummah they say, just because you're ignorant of something that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so I'm saying that, Alhamdulillah, the people of the sunnah are a lot, they don't have to sign up, they don't have to call a particular person, they don't have to sign a letter of agreement, all that they need to come with is, they have to follow the Quran and the sunnah, and every interpretation they give for the Quran and the sunnah has to be based on what the Sahaba said. Okay. That's all it is. Even if you don't call yourself, for example, Salafi, you don't have to call yourself. You don't have to call yourself Salafi. You don't have to call yourself Salafi. Wallahi, you don't have to call yourself Salafi. No, no, you don't have to call yourself Ahlu Sunnah if you want to. Rather, if you call yourself Salafi and you don't follow the Quran and the sunnah and that which applies predecessors upon, and you give yourself a Salafi, you're not Salafi, the name doesn't change anything. La'ibrata, the scholars, they say, La'ibrata bil al-Fadhi wal-Mabani, there's no reality to wordings and terms, Inna mal'ibratu bil-ma'ani, that which we look at is the meaning. We look at your action. We look at how do you follow the Salaf? Are your actions? Like there are a group of people who say, I'm Salafi right now and they shout that we're Salafi, but for them the reality and the truth is they have love and they have hate and they have allegiance on a particular person or a particular or two, three sheikh-shurfs, wa hadha haq lamiriya tafi, there's no debate about that. That's the truth, that's the reality. You know what you can do? You can oppose if you want to. The Salaf, you can oppose the Salaf if you want to, but if you don't oppose, but if you agree with the sheikh, you're from the Ahlu Sunnah, you're from Fikr, Tunaidiya, and your Salafi, that's the reality of some group of people out there. This sheikh is also one of your sheikhs. I mean, I respect the shuyuhs of Ahlu Sunnah in general. And that doesn't mean I agree with everything a person says. I don't believe every single person a sheikh says that he's haq and he is, I don't believe that. I believe, I take some of his speech when he goes in accordance to the Kitabah of the Sunnah and I reject it when he goes against the Kitabah of the Sunnah. I have not got, I'm not fanatic over any individual. Okay. I've got one more really important question for you and I'm going to end with this bit. And that is, what if you are a layman Muslim? You're not knowledgeable. You find someone in the masjid, giving doodles, giving lectures, giving lessons, and you see them reading the Quran, praying at night. You see them doing all of these good deeds. He's got beautiful akhla, good manners, and he's calling people to what appears to you as a layman Muslim, to the right version of Islam. How can you determine whether your initial perception of them being upon the Sunnah is correct or not? What kind of steps can you take? What kind of, you know, what kind of guidelines can you use? You see the layman person who doesn't know, generally we can't hold him account because he's ignorant, right? He doesn't know. And ignorant is a Uddur Shari. Ignorance, generally speaking, is a Shari'i excuse. You are excused in the Shari'ah. Ignorance is an excuse, as Allah said, we're not going to... Even from Tawheed. You see, that needs to be detailed whether you can be ignorant in Tawheed. Okay. That's another topic for another day. That's another topic for another day. So, Allah, Ta'ala, He says in the Quran, وما كنا معذبين حتى نبعث رسولة We are not ones to punish them unless we send a messenger to them. Meaning to convey to them. Allah says in the Nada'a, وما قدر الله حق قدري إذ قالوا ما أنزل الله على بشري من شيء And Allah says in the Nada'a, الله يصطفي من الملائكة روسولة ومن الناس Allah sent messengers for a reason to convey the message of Islam and to debunk and to speak against and dismantle the confusion and the misinterpretation of religion. So, ignorance is a hook, it's a Uddur Shari. Uddur Shari is excused. Okay. But here, if a person goes to a person who they rely and they believe in the Ahmadunnaas and they believe in that person, then as a poet said وليس في فتوه مفت المتبع ما لم يضاف للدين العلم والورع ام والورع The person he is, he goes to a person he sees religion in he sees a person who's, you know, staying away from Haram he sees a person who he believes is acting upon the religion that's all he saw and he asked question Allah is not going to punish him for that. But what he's needed to know is and this is an advice to all of the people out there who are seeking knowledge you want to learn it's generally good to go to a person of the Sunnah and you ask them about who you should take knowledge from. So you can test them, ask them. You don't test the person that you're trying to take knowledge from but you just ask about him from other people just like a sister if she wanted to get married she asks about the brother. But as a layman, like how can you determine whether the answer you get is a good answer or not? I mean, you hear from the imams of your local masjid all of them are criticizing him they all say that he's misguided. Okay, okay. I mean, I want to mention a final story and I think this insha'Allah it should insha'Allah bring matters to more clarity and I think it's important that we mention it. Imam Ahmad, Raheem Allah, I took the story from Tabaqat al-Hanabil about Abu Ya'la he mentioned that Imam Ahmad set you Ali bin Abi Khalidin he said about Harith al-Mahasebi he said about him laatu jaleesu, don't sit with him wa laatu kallim wa don't talk to him. So this is what Imam Ahmad said to him he said don't sit with that man and don't even talk to him. He's talking about an innovator. A man who went against I want to show you something. Okay. And then Imam Ahmad also said to the neighbor and a man who's close to Ali bin Abi Khalidin the same thing and he argued with Imam Ahmad more than Ali bin Abi Khalidin he argued with him regarding the issue of Harith. He said Many people sat with him and he's taken them away from the hasuna he's thrown them into misguidance he corrupted their belief. So the man said to him this is what concerns me he said to Ahmad Just like the people I'm telling you about to call to reading the Quran and doing good deeds he said he narrates hadith this man has khusul in his prayer he's calm and he's collected he has the sumtab ulama he's like a scholar and from my story he went on explaining who this man is and he came and said don't let him deceive you khusul is this man's khusul and lean on how gentle he is don't let him look him down like this and humble himself don't let that fool you there's no such thing as an evil man no one knows this man Allah the Almighty sees him we saw him for what he really is don't talk to this man there's no good in him everyone who tells you the hadith is a prophet and he's an innovator you're going to sit with him? every person who tells you a hadith of the prophet and he's an innovator you're going to go and you're going to take a hadith from him? no this man has no honor and he's a believer and he's like this and he keeps going on this man is, this man is and he was angry so just because you saw a man praying and fasting and crying in the salah whenever he mentions a hadith he can't hold himself doesn't make it a criteria to go forward for marrying him or taking knowledge from him or taking knowledge from him and to be very frank and honest with you a sister wouldn't just take that as well for marriage and that's what really shocks me that if I told you he's dangerous stay away from him you would take it and you'd be very but when it comes to this person's an innovator this person's going to corrupt your religion you are what? you're like nah and what is most important for you your Raqsul man is your your deen, your deen, your religion Raqsul man meaning? meaning your capital you cannot you can't lose the capital right in a business you go past yeah so you're losing your deen and you're talking about other things it's sad nowadays that people will really be careless about whether a person is innovator or not to the extent I'll tell you something there are people who now don't even like using the word Bida hate using that word Bida they hate using the word As-Sunnah they hate using the word At-Tur-Hid they ran away from it so much and there will come a time they don't even want to use the word Allah As-Sunnah so I think we're going to leave it there JazakAllah Khairan for joining me on the hotseat JazakAllah, my love, bless you I am Qawba Khamdika and I hope you enjoyed and benefited from that discussion please do share it with your friends and family members if you feel like they might benefit too and don't forget to hit that subscribe button below so you're notified of any new episodes check out www.thehotseatpodcast.com that's www.thehotseatpodcast.com on there you'll find a little bit more information about the podcast and you'll also have the chance to vote for which topic you'd like to see discussed on the show you can also ask questions on the website to the speaker himself about these contemporary modern day issues until next time Fee'imalilahi wassalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh