 Hello, I'm Brendan Howell and today I'm going to talk about teaching graphic design foundations using free Libra and open source software So the title I came up with is this kind of fancy word praxeology Hope it's not too pretentious, but it's a kind of a nice word. So let me let's just see what the dictionary says it means they say that Praxeology is the deductive study of purposeful human action and conduct Sounds good So it's very reflective I think for people learning to use new tools and exploring the possibilities of new media That sounds like a good approach so I thought that was a nice word to frame things and I Gave it this subtitle though About how I'm getting away with teaching this subject using software. That's maybe not the officially sanctioned tool and I guess the reason I say that some people might say well, it's a bit negative or it's a bit at least uncertain and I think that comes from my own experience that when I suggest sometimes to people that they try using Something that's a bit outside the mainstream maybe or at least unconventional That people get a bit skeptical Sometimes even hostile so I was kind of surprised and quite pleasantly surprised that it's it's been working out pretty well, so I'm going to share some of the successes and Some of the ideas and approaches and things well there's some failures too But for the most part that talk about the positive aspects of how well this is has been working for me so in 2015 someone approached me and asked if I wanted to teach temporarily for a year in Brunswick or Braunschweig Germany at the University of Arts there Now this is the it's maybe not as famous as some of the other schools But it is the second biggest art school in Germany and it has a very Like a classic fine arts basis. It's not it's not coming from the more Industrial applied arts. It's coming from a fine arts tradition so They wanted someone who in my case I said well, are you sure you want me? I'm not a proper. I'm not a graphic designer and they said no no we want For the foundations here. It's important even though and my department is visual communication It's important that we start with this fine arts tradition both for the digital and for the analog techniques and so My my colleague She teaches the the more analog foundations and I teach the digital of course we have a lot of overlap We do projects together, but we both are coming from arts traditions and or also Some technical things in my case. I studied engineering did my first degree in that and then my second degree was in fine arts so I Told them yeah, I'm not a designer and they said no we we don't want some agency Heinz coming in and and Limiting the the ideas too early later on and in other course work Of course, they will do things that are more applied, but initially we want them to have this fine arts tradition and a wide base of possibilities and aesthetic practices So I said okay and Then I said but the other thing the other stipulation I have is I want to do this with with floss Software and they said hmm. Okay, sure And they were basically unhappy with the the situation they felt that things have become a bit a bit stayed in the last few years in terms of software and that Also that the licensing situation had changed and people weren't so excited about the the conventional tools that have been frankly More or less the same. I mean they've been updated, but they haven't changed dramatically in about 25 years So they were interested in and what I had to offer So I was sort of skeptical after our meeting But then they called me back and said okay, you've got the job Okay, then I need to come up with a curriculum. I need to come up with some way of Taking all this software that I talked about and making it fit into this particular In this case we had a module description So I had some requirements even though they give me a certain carte blanche in terms of the details So the four main areas of the course are the following Pixels and lines I stole this from some people in the past been involved with the Libra graphics meeting Hope they don't mind. I'm pretty sure it's alright Pixels and lines are sort of especially for 2d, which is mostly what the the stuff we're doing is 2d are the main Ways of representing images in the computer. So we've got raster based images and vector based images and Yeah, I'll get more into how we deal with that later The second major topic area is reading and writing machines. So text and typography, but also the idea of how we work with texts how we write how we read so that also touches on a lot of areas of interaction and Well, how we tell stories narratives The next topic area is camera vision and Again, this is one where it's not just Photography or photography and film we get into animation and then of course things have gotten kind of weird with photography Lately and pretty interesting. So there are a lot of new possibilities new ways of What some people have called non-human photography and Some new ways of seeing that involve the computer sort of doing the looking for us and so we play with things like sensors image processing You know some even a little bit of AI we need to at least be aware of what's going on there even if we're not going to get deep into the the actual algorithms and Then the last topic area Is what I call metamachines. So that would be programming of course, but also Anything that's very dynamic. So if you're dealing with something that's interactive, whether it's web or Applications, but also the the other thing and this is another one that sort of started to change a lot that if You know one of the criticisms that I have of these more conventional conservative tools is They are based on an old idea They're sort of imitating the old analog way of producing that you make an image and you go into the dark room And you enlarge it and then you do all these things more or less by hand And you do those of course now with a screen and a mouse But you're still doing these individual operations manually Sometimes that's good and great, but sometimes it might be more interesting And this is where designers some designers are starting to think about things in terms of generating images so that you design a machine and Then you put some input or some data or some triggers which then output an image based on a system of rules and Algorithms that the designers developed. So this is another way of where I'm talking about metamachines so Now at the same time we need to maybe look at some actual concrete examples like what what are we actually doing here and I talk about pixels and lines But one of the things we're doing is we actually Well, maybe it's a bit mean of me But I actually start off by having everyone install a text editor Because I want to deal with media not applications. I love certain applications and I think that's great But I think the later you start with them the more Open your mind is to other possibilities and ways of of doing things with a particular medium So we're working with pixels and lines, but we start off by using a text editor to make picks maps and bitmaps Manually it's a bit maybe a little bit cruel It's it's certainly a labor intensive, but we just do some brief assignments initially Where before we start working with the mouse and the GUI and all those nice cool features that the Software gives us we do it by hand and we actually see What those pixels really are as data and we think about it in a different way and the same with SVG We make SVG vector graphics By hand we code them by hand and of course that means that a lot of things that are really easy and say inkscape are Nearly impossible So it actually is an interesting set of aesthetic constraints and the students start to sometimes develop At least within the context of these assignments some really cool minimalist aesthetics and approaches and The images they make and they start to see this themselves the images They make are different than the ones that they would make when they're presented with the the convenient access to more advanced techniques So next we then start using the GUI so we use graphical tools, but these are not the tools that are the conventional ones that you find in professional design agencies are using Well, some of them are but they're not as widespread. They're not the market theaters, so to speak so Gimp, Krita, Inkscape, things like that and Part of the point of this is not necessarily to say that this is better or this is it's more to say that There are a lot of different ways to work with say vector graphics and their different programs and each program has its own idiosyncrasies its own advantages its own tricks and We need to see it that way and be flexible and see it as a medium rather than a Specific tool that you must master and only use that one tool Next is has to do with self-sufficiency So I encourage well, I don't encourage all of my students each one has a laptop and for those that have money problems, we figure something out where they can either borrow one or buy something used and They are in charge of maintaining and doing installation updates Deleting managing all their stuff they have to handle their own IT on some personal level and Then on top of that then we then say okay DIY do it yourself. There's DIWO, which I stole from further field. I think they came up with that term DIWO is do it with others. So we also have to share our knowledge We have to understand that the tech world is huge and complicated and nobody can understand it all So we need to help each other out and so we do workshops for each other Internally on different and students can decide what topics they're interested in somebody has a special interest in music. They do something with a lot of us or with audacity or whatever and It works out pretty well and it actually it's interesting because then the students become personally invested in in these things once they are forced to explain them to other people and Then another important approach is to say there's not a right way of doing things that you can actually do really cool things by using the tool wrong and You can make glitchy images. You can hack things. You can force one form of data into another and You can use trash aesthetics. You can make illustrations using a spreadsheet You can sample and cut and paste. So this is also something that where Open source really excels is letting you tweak things and make them do something that maybe they weren't necessarily intended to do but they give a cool visual result So finally that the the the general idea is that every designer is also a kind of Inventor that you have to invent your own technique or process and that expression is something that is Active it's something that comes out of Action out of decisions that you take in the process of producing something and the result is it's a record of that So finally, how do I get away with it? That's sort of coming back to this idea of getting away with it So how I use these sort of Limitations and constraints, but I say this is only temporary After this is done you can then you don't have to do this again You don't have to use this particular program or this medium or this way It's it's a way of saying like this was a way to understand it But now it's your choice and because it's presented as a wide World of possibilities, then I think students don't feel as as forced into using one program or another and they feel like there's more diversity that's open to them and In a way the students start to like these constraints They like to push against the rules to play with this that okay, I'll make an image with this But then I'll cheat by If I'm not supposed to use text. I'll use Certain shapes that look like text And then there are just so many different Ways of then combining things that's another thing that is interesting instead of having one tool and doing one thing and one tool And that's done and it's a sort of Autonomous work then they they sort of mix and match and flow from one thing to the other so they have more of a At least at a certain point in their development of ideas a more improvised process rather than something that's based on one tool using it one way and In the end we have a lot of fun making cool stuff And I think that's really the thing that's most convincing to anyone is if you can enjoy the process of using a piece of software and enjoy the result that You're gonna like it no matter who made it or how it was sold to you So I want to encourage everyone if you haven't or if you're feeling shy go for it. Try it. Well, it's it's actually Been a big success. I've been doing this for five years. It was supposed to be one year and they've extended this and I'm still having fun and I'm really eager to hear about other Experiences that people have teaching with flaws Thank you so I scroll back here. There are a couple of Questions So what about DIWO? Yeah, so there's an organization and arts organization that does a lot of work with the web and new media and stuff in the UK that's called further field and that was where I first heard it that they had a series of I think basically workshops that they called DIWO as a sort of contrast a sort of joke that that was sort of up the opposite but like an alternative to DIY that it was collectively based and that's something that I always do in the The second semester each the students have to make small groups and then They give each other they just sort of pick a topic sometimes it's a topic. They don't know much about but they're curious like last year there was one on DJing they were interested in like beats and DJ stuff so they used mix and did basically like DJ workshop in the classroom so I teach It's called Foundations of digital communication Sorry Yes to repeat the question was that what what's the actual course that I teach so I teach It's in the department of visual communication so basically the the profile for the students is is graphic design and The course that I teach is called Fundamentals of digital communication The the other one the the sort of complementary course that's the analog media is called foundations of Artistic techniques or something like that, but essentially there our courses are somewhat overlapping, but one is the more analog media and one is more digital, but of course We all know none of these things are really that easy to delineate Okay The other question Glad you like the sign. Yeah, I borrowed that that from my son Yeah, he's five so he's really into letters and stuff right now, so he likes to play with that My shirt. Yeah, no the presentation actually recorded like two days ago. So that's yeah I just changed my shirt for you guys The age level so this is university. It's the first year of university and So my students are Some of them are coming straight from high school in Germany usually you're Like 18 or 19 when you graduate I have had I think once or twice students who were not quite 18 when they started the course but I also have it's It's not rare for students to either Start studying something else or work for a few years or do some vocational training So a lot of my students are maybe 25 and some are even in their 30s when they start studying this but it is the first year of And it's a it's a BA. It's a four-year BA program. Yeah Okay, so the question About how to survive with floss tools in industry That's the one that I I realized that was part of where some of the the pushback was coming is the students were like Yeah, but that's not what that's not professional and so I Started to talk with them about that and I guess the biggest example I showed them was that I showed them one which was a job ad for an unpaid Internship where they demanded this huge list of basically all of the popular commercial software and then I had another one which was for an art director who was you know working on a pretty high level for a really big corporation and That job had no references none to any particular software packages because what they were interested in were conceptual skills and Personal skills and your ability to develop ideas It's this it was assumed that these kind of you know questions of whether you make the pixels or the vectors in this program or the Other were irrelevant when you're working at that level So I I use that to try to convince the students that the important thing is not that you got Program or popular common programs listed on your resume Everybody's gonna have that and the other thing is that these things change sometimes, you know, there's a few that are very Established and they don't you know, we know which ones they are but there's also a few that are They come and go, you know like within five years by the time you finish studying a bunch of these companies are gonna be bust Or they're gonna be bought up and the products are gonna be turned off I mean people who do 3d, you know, this is like every couple of years something cool comes up And then a few years later it then disappears from the market. So I Try to convince them that what they need are sort of meta level skills and that they need an understanding If they have a good understanding of pixels when a new cool program comes out, whether it's commercial or not They can use that With the de-factor tools All right, wait, hold on. I'm looking at the I think I'm getting out of order here. Do I ever have pushback? Yeah, definitely. I mean it happens and sometimes I have to be a little bit Strict about it, but I also say look this is about artistic fundamentals. You don't in in the analog class you don't complain When you're using I don't know I mean they have ones where they're supposed to use like a giant paintbrush as a sort of restriction as a sort of Constraint to their creativity and they don't complain about the brand of paintbrushes or the type of things And that's sort of one way that I try to argue is that I'm teaching you Meta level skills and that if you understand You know good rules of composition of color of Different ways of doing layout. It doesn't really matter of what particular Tool you're using that you're going to be able to if you have a general adaptability with software because you used a lot of stuff And you're not uncomfortable about using something different and it's not a big deal then to say, okay Cork expresses and hit penny more than I'm going to try this. I understand typography. This is typography and That's to my mind more important and sometimes I have to push a little bit but The way I've broken things down into small pieces. I say like, okay We'll tell you what next week if you want you can use the big commercial program this week You're gonna use this one, but it's still Typography or vector graphics or whatever you don't need to You know feel like you're wasting your time Okay Do I yeah, I teach halftime. So the question was if I teach full-time or not. Yeah, so I teach halftime and I do some freelance stuff. It's kind of it depends. I mean I've done some You know more like very commercial stuff for for startups You know either front-end or other mostly front-end Development for web based stuff, but also I do with my favorite work is I do for artists and museums I do sort of technical things. So video artists who need multi-channel installations or The the German Railway Museum one of my best customers. We really have fun building a lot of interactive Exhibits for them and I do the all that with with thoughts wouldn't be possible without it Okay Question our students curious about praxeology is praxeology something I teach why this name. Um, I Don't know. I just actually I don't use the term that much in I mean I teach in German So I would have to figure out what if I could translate that even but I do I mean I do like this idea that that our practice is reflective that it's about what tools we use and how and It's not just about okay. These are the officially sanctioned tools. This is the way you produce images It's sort of like well All right, here's a sort of an area that's interesting How do you want to make it? It's up to you that's part of your job as a designer is to think about the tools and the process and You know, that's that's what makes it interesting and that's also what makes the images the results actually interesting So I do incorporate that that reflective aspect of it. Of course. Yeah How many weeks do I My syllabus it's two semesters. So The meta yeah the meta one is because it involves programming that's sort of It's one that I should repeat the question more explicitly. How many weeks do I teach the syllabus and This is from East East also wants to know more about the meta Meta machines I think was the part of the program. So yeah, that's Our semester is I think 14 weeks and there's two semesters. So it's a 28 weeks So it's a year basically one school year two semesters that the the program goes over and The meta machines that one is more about dynamic stuff So it depends on on what we're doing So I would say programming and I teach programming right now I've done it with various different techniques. So it's cool to see the presentation about About Python and processing because I've been using processing in various different Forms for a number of years and lately. I've been doing P5 JS Just because it's really the online editor is really useful It's helpful to be able to you know, and students run into trouble. They just send me a link to their code and I can go look at it and And That's one of the tougher subjects, but it's also one of the subjects where people really start to see how cool floss is so But I would say this meta machines thing. I wouldn't limit it to that. I would say even something like You could even argue that using templating systems and CSS are kind of meta machine that you don't have That as a designer you come up with a system and then you pour the content into it and that Will come out differently. It's not that you lay out every little thing by hand the way you would in say a classic Page layout software. So I like I qualify that also as a sort of meta machine Okay What's the piece of software that my students choose to use the most? I Think it varies. I mean it also varies like depending on the year I would say this year a bunch of students are really into Krita like they really like it they did a big animation project with that and they had a lot of fun I also had some trouble as it is, you know, especially with animation you end up Huge files or conversion problems this kind of stuff. It's normal, but that one is definitely big I mean gimp is very popular just because it's a good general tool when you need to just quickly whip up something it's It really offers itself as the quick solution But it's it's a huge variation and then I guess the one thing that everyone uses definitely a lot is text editor so, yeah Do so question from myself himself Do you tie your classes with maker space machines or techniques 3d printing laser cutting Vacuum forming or am I focusing just on software and electronics? Yeah for the most part It's mostly software. The one thing I like to do is We print a lot and we we like to make like the students my students especially love making books so like we did something recently where we were making comics and So In terms of real physical stuff printing is big the other one that we do a lot is the plotter so we have an axi draw and One of the first vector assignments is to then make some diagrams using axi draw and that one's always a lot of fun and interesting To see what people do there and also it's great because that works with Inkscape and it doesn't work so well with the commercial stuff at least not directly But in terms of more Yeah, like sort of 3d printing or laser cutting we do usually do one workshop with the industrial designers every year Where they work together this year we're gonna do a combined workshop where we make Board games with the industrial designers, so we'll make teams where there's a couple of graphic designers or visual communicators from our department and then The the the students from industrial design who then will help you know Making well not necessarily board games, but but tabletop physical real games Yeah So we do but it's mostly in collaboration then How do students react with the change of formats the duality between open and closed formats? I'm not sure I mean they definitely see some advantages there I mean some of it is that they're very pragmatic, so You know and I encourage them also to do things like if somebody's having trouble making the perfect layout just for like a You know showing work in progress then we'll just use an office program and Slap your stuff in there. It doesn't have to be perfect. It can have a sort of some punk trash aesthetic Maybe for this point in time, so they they're ready to to improvise and I guess for them They don't get so much into those debates although they do they start to see things with certain situations like with copyright for example You know, I Encouraged them. There's a lot of assignments where I say, okay, you can use appropriation, but it needs to be from Archive or something like that. So it's we talk about a lot about copyright and also about the advantage of things like the web where you can view source and how Other formats like say flash or director. They died because in part they weren't open enough that you couldn't Just go in and sort of steal cool tricks from other people. Okay Are many students interested in contributing that's one I think maybe I need to work on more is getting them more involved in and actually Interacting with the floss community because I think that's one area where Once people start doing that then they suddenly they can at least get really excited and they feel like it's a totally different thing you know a monolithic corporation versus Community where you just show up in the chat room and say like hey I'm having problem with this and then one of the main developers, you know response to you directly or something like that I think that's a really It's the special thing that only floss can offer you maybe some really small commercial projects but for the the most part you you don't get that and and then I Think it's something that you can also build on that students, you know feel like wow I actually had some influence that it's actually a thing of That it exists in the social space and it's not just a product, you know the sort of shiny bubble that you go to a store and you buy and Consume and either satisfies you or probably it doesn't after a certain amount of time and you throw it away and you buy a new one I'm getting maybe a bit to pull it up here but yeah Definitely they they they do start to see in some contexts how this is interesting But I think I do need to maybe push my students to try to engage with the community more Okay, are any of Activities assignments documented somewhere for others to try and adapt in different contexts Um Yeah, that is something I have been terrible about my own notes are kind of like a mess of Stuff and I've only just started to and in some ways this whole viral situation has pushed me to be a Bit tidier about that kind of stuff and to try and so I've started to make a website I'm not ready to make it public but I've been trying to Make it at least for the students and then I think Maybe in a month or so and I've got more of the material sort of edited and cleaned up that I can then Publicize the url and people can start to look at it because I really would like I think it's it's stuff that maybe other people could use like I think I think that's sam asking about that Because I really like the for example you had an svg Demo that you did recently is gorgeous. It's really nice and I showed it to a few students and they liked it And I think the stuff along those lines could be really useful Um Another question from myself himself Do I feel that students sometimes miss basics in classical art history or lack art cultural knowledge? um Yeah, not so much with at least with my students art history is Fairly okay, and I can sort of fill in the gaps there What does Seem to be missing as a certain amount of design history. So I try to show them a lot of examples Especially when you get into things like vector graphics or typography or you know, I've done assignments before where we say, okay, let's find You know, let's find some Bauhaus 2d work and let's make it uh in the web, you know, we'll figure out floats and we'll do a mondrian. Okay, that's Pete spot. That's not Bauhaus. But you know what? I mean the sort of classic stuff some of it actually translates really well to some of these Either svg or or web formats Um, so I try to fill things in there But the one where I make a special effort in terms of Cultural knowledge is more the history of computing. So there's a lot of things like everyone knows about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and this sort of mythology. But to me, I feel like it's not It's not really accurate that the mythology That I think is maybe more inspiring and interesting is to look at Um Well, first all the women who were involved in early computing and so I'll show them you know, I'll I try to show them images and and and talk about people who were involved in early computing who don't look like heroic business executives and uh So we try to show that also a lot of the the artists who were involved with experiments, you know EAT and stuff in the 60s The experimenting with with media that I think those are useful backgrounds and in terms of cultural knowledge Question from Javier are all my students Germans or do I have international students to does it change something? Yeah, definitely. I have Yeah, usually several international students every year I mean here in Germany, generally if it's a bachelor program, it's still taught in German and I teach in German So it does change things and it's interesting That's the one area also where open source Is doing a pretty good job like translations are good you know or things like like the the mdn the web the docs from mozilla are in most uh These bigger languages that are really well translated. It's it's great stuff So it does change things and that's one area where um open source can at least for projects that are popular enough to have good translations that students are like oh, wow cool this uh You know gimp works in korean and it's it's kind of exciting to people then to see that Um another question is this still being taught in corona times? During video conferences. Yeah, I am I will be honest. I kind of Hate teaching online Even though i'm I know it's ironic. I'm in a sort of a digital person. I love the internet. I've been using it for since I was like 16 and You know way back in the 90s But um, it's it's hard and it's I I just really missed that classroom context, so we're doing different things and I'm trying to experiment a little bit with Instead of these for this do it with others things since we can't do workshops that are as hands on That I'm offering the students then to let them do some experiments with streaming So whether they want to do play music or show videos and then we chat about them in parallel we're trying some stuff like that and Right now we're doing stuff with with p5js and using the online editor It's it's tough. It really is because there's something about being able to sit down next to somebody In front of a computer and look at things and talk about it that you You can't do as well when you're You know miles away from each other Axi draw. Yes Raphael. Thank you for the link. That's right That was the question about the plotter that we use the pen plotter. It's a bit expensive But it's pretty nice, but there are other ones. There are also ones that you can build yourself. Um Yeah So a question about how technically savvy are the incoming students and did I notice a change in their willingness to accept Modifying are using digital tools differently. Okay, that's sort of two questions. Yeah um How technically savvy that's It really runs the gamut and the interesting thing is I find the more They like mobile phones or the more Shall we say Active they are and using their mobile phones the worst they are technically it's harder the ones who are um in some ways The who do really well are the ones who are more used to they're coming from more of a pc culture Or they're used to sort of installing things and updating things and dealing with I don't know The driver problem or something like that. Whereas with the mobile phone all of the apps are generally I mean some of them are you barely need to be literate. So they're kind of Uh They don't expect you as a user to be able to Think for yourself that much. So it's it's tougher. You know, some of them even occasionally have students who have a hard time understanding Files and what files are and how the file system works and where things are in their computer um But sometimes I find it's very interesting that I'll have students who come in Who are kind of they've avoided dealing with pc's like they sort of have their mobile phone And they do that But they're not heavy users and they generally are they love to draw and uh paint and things like that, but they're A little bit wary of the the computer as this sort of thing And so they show a little bit too much respect Maybe um And they're afraid of sort of breaking things or doing something wrong And so one of the things that helps is when we do uh an assignment with glitch And i'm like, yeah, you need to break your images and you're going to need to try a lot of different ways It won't look good or it'll look weirdly the wrong spot. It's kind of experimental or breaking things You can't really expect them to break in the way you plan So this is one and then there's other things that that help them sort of Loosen up and and feel like oh, okay. I don't have to understand everything completely and I don't have to do things in Some sort of prescriptive proper way and Some of these students end up being the ones who are actually they get really excited and they like Feeling the sense of a little bit of mastery But also that they can play with stuff and they end up going on to then be They started off as the least digital and then on the end of two semesters. They're Really into this stuff. They become kind of dirty Um So that's a sort of one one story of of of what happens in terms of the how tech savvy they are um And do I notice a change in their willingness to accept modifying or using digital tools? I guess maybe that story Answers your question. I'm not sure if you want you can ask a follow-up then I can see So a question related to printing I want to figure out a pipeline of flip book making from blender Could processing graphic layout rendering to per frame printing maybe using gmic Uh Could I show you this on the Sure, that sounds fun. That sounds like a cool concept. Yeah, and also the like a textbook case of Uh, yeah, how how floss tools enable you to do something that's not conventional or You know expected But the flexibility is there. So you can just do it. Okay. Ada Lovelace. Yeah, of course But also people like more more recent, um grace hopper, uh, you know, who Or less gave us modern programming languages, you know, or an hamilton who is You know the woman behind the Apollo Computer, you know, and the students most of my students don't know these people Women who are real pioneers and very important in the foundation of of modern computing Is that a toaster behind me? The silver object. No, it's uh, this thing here is a Like a lock box. I mean, there's nothing valuable in it. It's just some pens It's like an old thing that Yeah Okay Okay, I think that was the last question. Yeah, I mean I can hang out in the chat if people want to talk more but we can maybe um Yeah, and I'm really also one last thing. I'm really curious to hear about other people I know there's a lot of other people. I'm not the only one I've only done this because I saw what other people are doing What we're doing and I was like, okay, maybe I can get away with it too. All right. Thank you