 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and producer of the chats. The chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today, December 1st, 2021, via Zoom, I'm speaking with Jason, also known as Leather Dad Jason, in Ontario, Canada. Where exactly are you located? I'm actually in Niagara, just outside Niagara Falls. Okay, on the Canadian side? On the Canadian side, yes. We can almost see America. The Canadian side has the more beautiful waterfall, hasn't it? It's true. I just spent a night there and it was absolutely stunning. Yeah, I haven't been there in a long time, but yeah. So today, we're going to talk a little bit about your history, a little bit about your world. Let's start off, tell me a little bit about where you're from and about your growing up. Sure, so I am from Southern Ontario. I grew up in a tiny little hamlet called Vanessa, surrounded by tobacco farms and lived there for quite a while and then moved to a slightly bigger town of Grantford, that's where I was all through my teenage years. And I grew up with my family, with my siblings, pretty run-of-the-mill growing up. And then as a teenager, I came into the closet as a lesbian and started to face a lot of violence, was beat up, had my house vandalized and broken into. And so that's when I decided to head to Toronto. I packed up all of my stuff, got on a bus at 4am and went to Toronto and started living on the streets. And that's when I was about 18. Take us back a little bit to being bullied and having your house broken into. What was going on there? I think the atmosphere of the town at the time was, I mean, it was a small town. It was very homophobic. There was a lot of racial tension in the town and so things like school yard fights and stuff were, I mean, not uncommon. It's just something I grew up with. So as I started to come out, people found out. And I mean, I had a few friends who were supportive and a lot who weren't and just suddenly turned and one night, two girls came that I knew and started questioning me about whether I was gay and I said yes and just started kicking me with those. Remember the combat boots with the steel toe on the outside, the toe cap with those like in the face and stuff. And two women came out of a bar thankfully and called the police and if it weren't for them, I don't know what would have happened. Oh my gosh, that's awful. Yeah, yeah. When was this happening? How recently? So that would have been the late 90s. I think sometimes I reflect on how much things have changed because I don't know that that would be the experience of someone in that town now, which is great. I would never want someone to have to go through the things that... I hate to say I'm older, but I think when we talk about queer history and generational pieces, there is that bit there. So some of the things that as older folks have gone through and especially the folks who came before me too. I'm slightly surprised to hear that because as an outsider looking at Canada, I've always seen Canada's very progressive. So to hear that there would be such violence going on is... I didn't expect that. I think Canada is... I mean in many ways we're different from the States. I think that we have stronger gun control. Our guns tend to just be used for hunting for the most part. But I mean we certainly have levels of violence. We have ongoing history of genocide and colonization towards Indigenous people and racism towards folks of other racial backgrounds. And so I think Canada in many ways is very progressive. We're a very progressive country, but I think we also have our hard stuff too. And I think sometimes the stereotypes of our country sort of overshadow the fact that we do have a long sort of history with all marginalized communities. Take me back a bit to your coming out as a lesbian. How did that evolve for you? So I think I realized that I was probably more bisexual when I was 10 or 11. I think at that point I just didn't really have the words for it. There wasn't a huge bi-community and certainly the word queer was just in the beginning of the process of being reclaimed and sort of in our vernaculars as a positive identity. And yeah, I think I just... I really recognized that I was attracted to lots of different people and I had to do more with the people than their gender and started to come out. I came out to my best friend and she was like, that's fine, but you can't tell anybody. You'll get killed. This is not good. And so it was a few years before I came out really. I was probably about 15 or 16 when I started coming out a lot more publicly and came out to my family. My family was good. I mean, they struggled a bit at first, but I'm really lucky to have a family who has accepted me in all of my little quirks. What other little quirks do you have? Oh man, where would I even start? Well, I think part of struggling with my sexuality and part of living in a small town where there wasn't good sex education meant that there was a lot of teen pregnancy where I was from. So I actually had my first baby when I was 16. Well, 15, almost 16. And my parents were really good about it. My mom always said you can be whatever you want to be. We'll still love you. And so they've been supportive. I mean, they've had their moments, their parents. I'm a parent, I get it. But I have really stood by me and my family and I'm really grateful for that. And how old is your child? I don't know whether you have a daughter, a son. Yeah, so I have three children. My oldest is 25. Then I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old and we're actually raising our grandson who's four. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so it's a full house. Yes, yes. I can't help then, but ask. As someone in the general LGBTQ community, how is it raising children? I think it's changed a lot, I think for sure. I mean, having a child in the 90s and being a teen parent, it was at a time when it was still really hard for queer folks to get pregnant and to have access to things like fertility treatments and such. And so most of the people that I knew that were queer who had families were older. They had been married, they had had kids, eventually split up with their partners and gone on to live their lives. So there wasn't a lot of support back then. I find now that there's more access and that there's, in Canada, more health coverage for things like fertility treatments. There's a lot more queer folks having kids or having alternative family structures and setups. And so it hasn't really been an issue. I mean, my kids, I don't think they've ever really faced discrimination because of our sexuality and are raised in a house where we just believe that consent is key and that's what's important. And so we're really lucky that way. Very, very good. Yeah, this concept of consent is becoming more and more prevalent. We're seeing more and more of it. How can you see that? Like, how do I see it sort of becoming more prevalent? How do you teach the concept of consent to your children? Right. I think, I mean, with us, we started at a super young age. Like, they don't have to hug people or kiss people that they don't want to, it's family members. You know, modeling good behavior, just like, do you want me to tickle you? Is this still okay? Do you want me to stop? Do you want me to give you a kiss tonight? Just, I think when we give kids that choice, like it just becomes ingrained in them, right? It becomes something that they do naturally. And so, I mean, even the four-year-old will come up and say, like, oh, can I give you a hug? And I think that when we start really early, it becomes more a part of just how people interact in the world. And for us too, I think, you know, we've always been really open about other families. We're in a, like, polyamorous family. Our kids know that. Obviously they have three parents living with them. And so just really talking about the fact that, you know, families come in all different shapes and sizes and that people make different choices with their life. And that's fine as long as they're not hurting anybody, but that they have to be consenting. And as our kids get older and we start, you know, having the sex talk and stuff, you know, there's a little bit of threatening. Like, it better be consensual, whatever you choose to do. You know, it better be. And so they get that that's, I think, one of our core values as a family. Tell me a little bit more about being a polyamorous family. How do you make that work? Well, I, so my husband, I have been together for almost 21 years now. And we have been non-monogamous for most of that relationship. I think that when we got together, I was already pretty involved in the leather community. And a lot of my exposure to the gay community, when I first, you know, got on the streets in Toronto, was to the gay men's community. And the men that I was hanging out with weren't monogamous. And so it just, for me, was almost an essential part of a queer identity. At the time, as I understood it, like you work queer, you weren't monogamous. That's just sort of how it went. And so for us, I mean, we've been non-monogamous for, yeah, 21 years. I have another live-in partner and I met her probably 10 years ago, 11 years ago. And she was just sort of a family friend, like in the distance. And eventually we ended up hooking up and falling in love. And my husband was like, well, why doesn't she move in with us? We have to move anyway. She's coming to the city for school. So this is perfect. And it just worked out really well. The kids immediately took to her and, you know, we sort of eased them into it a bit. But she became their third parent. And we've been really lucky. Like I understand that not many people have the life experience that we have where we're 99% out. We're out pretty much everywhere except for one of our jobs. It wouldn't be particularly safe. But we're out at our kids' school. We, you know, moved a year ago from Toronto into a small rural farming area. And it just hasn't been an issue at all. People get it. And I think folks are just really, you know, happy that our kids are surrounded by love. And I think when you see our family, like there's so much love emanating from us. And that's what we put into the community as well. You know, we volunteer and do lots of other stuff. In community. And so I think that folks respect that. Why the move? Why the move? Because Toronto is so bloody expensive. Part of it was, I mean, expense. I mean, we were paying so much in rent and knew that we would never be able to own a house in Toronto. And I think that's the reality for most people now. And we all three of us grew up in sort of rural farm communities or with farm experience. And it was something that we had always talked about, but I don't know that living in Toronto, like we really thought it was a reality. And then my husband's family homestead came up for sale unexpectedly. And we were able to purchase a small house and turning it into a hobby farm. And it's nice. I mean, we're close enough to Toronto. You know, we can still do stuff in the community and go in and come home. But we get the experience of country living and it's wonderful. It's exciting. It's so good for the kids. And it's just a slower pace of life, which is needed. Let's take a step back to your arrival in Toronto. You said you lived on the streets. Tell us about that. What was going on? Yeah, so I arrived in Toronto. I immediately went to a youth shelter, a Catholic run youth shelter, because I had seen advertisements for it on TV. So it was kind of, I knew that that support was there. Arrived, I was there for a while. It turned out it was really homophobic and not a super safe space. So I spent some time living in shelters. I lived on the streets, squatting in abandoned buildings. At the same time, though, it was, I mean, I was coming from a small town where I knew, I had seen newspaper articles about pride the year before in Toronto and was blown away and didn't really understand sort of, you know, how big and extravagant it was. Even back then, I mean, now it's a million times larger. But I remember there was a trans girl staying at the shelter with me and she was having a horrible time. They were making her dress like a man. They wouldn't let her like go on. There was like a trip to the Toronto Zoo that we were going on and she wasn't allowed to go unless she dressed like a man. And so she was like, you know what, screw it. I'm not going. Do you want to come with me to church street? I was like, church street? Why on earth would we want to go to a street full of churches? This doesn't make any sense. And she was like, no, no, no, it's the gay village. Have you never been there? And I was like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. And she was like, oh my gosh, come on. I remember we went and we sat at Baskin Robbins, which was across the street from second cap, which is where like the iconic steps in Toronto used to be. And I remember sitting there just looking over at the steps. And, you know, it was early September. Everyone was out. It was just such a beautiful afternoon. And I had no idea that there were so many gay people anywhere, let alone that, you know, there was like a village where they all just hung out together. And it was just such an eye-opening experience. And so for me, that's sort of became my home base. And whether I was squatting or in shelters, I mean, we'd get up in the morning. I was going to school at the time, go to school, and then just go straight to the village and hang out and learn. And I think it was on the steps, really, that I, you know, learned so much about queer history and queer culture. And I remember, you know, the old bears would sit down next to me. I was 17 at the time. And they'd sit down and just tell me all these stories about like when they came out and where they were from. And it was so magical. For the benefit of the audience, would you please explain what the steps were? Yeah, definitely. So the steps which were made famous in sketches by a Canadian show called Kids in the Hall were, there was just a coffee shop. And there were literally just steps in front of it, almost what we would call wet-thing steps if it was on the church. And everyone would just sit there and hang out. And it was just amazing. I mean, there was probably room for, oh my gosh, like 80 people to sit on those steps. And everyone would just sit there and cruise. And remember years later, I lived in the village. And I was always excited that first like warm spring day where you could serve or shorts. Because I knew that all the guys would be out on the steps and they're short shorts cruising each other. And bringing that life back after winter and it was just so exciting. So the steps existed for a very long time. Eventually, the second cup was purchased by new owners and they got rid of the steps. It's been something, I think, that there's been talk of bringing back in some of the newer architecture going up in Toronto. So we'll see if that happens. But I think it was an important place because I think often in the community, we have places that are bars and so they're not accessible to people under 19 or folks who are uncomfortable in places serving alcohol. Or a place that, you know, it's expensive to go places. Like you have to buy tickets or you have to, you know, you're expected to pay for drinks the whole time you're somewhere. And just to have somewhere free that folks could gather and have conversations, I think, is something that we really need in our communities. Tell us more about the gay village you discovered. It was before I got gentrified. It's really gentrified in the last, you know, 10, 10, 15 years. Yeah. Oh my gosh, when I arrived, I mean there was second cup in the steps and upstairs I was soy, which was supporting our youth, which is an organization that still exists that runs just amazing program for LGBTQ youth. There were still two lesbian bars. There was tangos, which was tangos and crews still exist. Crews is the men's bar. But at some point around, I think probably 2004, 2005, they made it into one bar. So there used to be a wall separating the women's side from the men's side. And so we still, we had that. And there was Pope Jones over on Parliament Street, which was a women's bar. And I mean, that's where I first met a lot of older women in the community. Some of the butchers who, you know, took me under their arm and they're like, hey, this is how you have to act when you're a butch. Wow. And I mean, there were just so many, you know, we had Glad Day, which is the world's oldest LGBTQ bookstore. It was on Yonge Street at the time of Block Away, but still very much there. I mean, the Black Eagle was there. And at that point, I just knew it was that very scary bar that I would never go in. And, you know, I think like most of the businesses on the street were like queer run or like really queer oriented. I guess a lot of that has changed now. I think that there's been some businesses that have moved in recently really trying to get back to that sort of grassroots feeling. But I don't, I don't know if it'll happen because with the housing prices in Toronto, like people are so spread out all over the city. So you sort of get different pockets of the community, which I mean is sometimes good, sometimes not great. So let's go back to when you were in, I forgot the name of the bar you said, where you were meeting all the women. Oh, Pope Jones. Pope Jones, tell us more about that. What were these people teaching you about being a boy? It was interesting because I feel like for coming out in the late 90s, I still managed to come out into almost like a tail end of second wave feminism. And, you know, there was still a lot of women in the community who were going to the Michigan Women's Music Festival. We're still identifying as separatist lesbians. We're really transphobic. And, you know, I think that's an important part of our history to talk about because it shows how far we've come, but also how recent that has existed in our community. And so, I mean, there was a lot, a lot still of, you know, a lot of separatism and like, oh, you don't want to hang out with the men and men are misogynistic and, you know, us women have to stick together. And, yeah, and it was interesting. Like, I found that often a lot of older women flocked towards me, but really to be like, this is how you have to behave. Like, this is, you know, you don't date them. You only date other butchers, which is like a stark contrast to, you know, the butch femme scene in Toronto from like, you know, the 20s onwards. And I think, I think for me, like, I appreciate it because it gives me a, I think a richer sense of our history and where we came from. I think that maybe if I had shown up in Toronto even a few years later, I wouldn't have had that experience and had to make those decisions and question things for myself around where my politics would be and how I would exist in community. That's a very strong statement. Yeah, it's one of those things, you know, I'm grateful for it, even though, like, I certainly was a jerk at times. I certainly definitely, you know, there were moments where I probably didn't treat people the way that they deserve to be treated. I was young and still figuring myself out and figuring out the community. But I think it also has taught me, you know, I've seen community at its best and it's worse and I'm quite invested in seeing how we can make it at its best. What's the best you've seen? Oh my gosh, I think, you know, things like, I think it's the PWA people with AIDS. I think they're the ones who do the bike rally every year to raise money for HIV research and awareness. I've had so many friends do that. I mean, a bike from Toronto to Montreal and it's just an amazing thing. It's amazing that when people, you know, I think put their bodies out there and do hard work to raise money and awareness for issues in our community. I often think about the AIDS Foundation and, you know, they, for a long time, did a lot of workshops around BDSM and I'm sure we'll talk about that. But as an organization, it's a risky thing to do, you know, to put yourself out there and sort of be like, hey, we need funding and government funding and also we're supporting this community. And I just think about the little things. You know, I knew people who would buy coffee for three kids, right? And help folks get winter coats when they didn't have them and do those little pieces. Supporting local businesses, right? We're still really lucky to have some of the smaller businesses and now a lot of us, you know, who at that age were, I mean, three kids together now have master's degrees and are, you know, we have incomes and are still trying to go back and support those businesses and there's the, I remember, so I was one of the squeegee kids who would like squeegee windows for money back in the 90s and it was hugely contentious. It was eventually made illegal in Toronto. But deadly hardware on Church Street would, they always had a bucket of squeegees in the back and they would sell them to us for two or three dollars, like almost at cost. And they were always so respectful and nice. And so any time I'm in the village and, you know, I need some hardware-related thing, I'll still go back there and buy it from them and often say to them, you know, like I always remember that like you guys gave us squeegees and you were respectful towards us. Like you really, you saw what we were doing and I still appreciate that, you know, 20-something years later. So... Now, were you washing store windows, car windows? Car windows. Oh, okay. Yeah. What's the worst you've seen in the community? I mean, I think, you know, there has always been people in the community who are full of drama, who search drama out. And we're not talking about just being like, you know, kind of dramatic, like friend gossip type stuff. I think that, you know, there are folks in every community who it seems like all they can see is the negativity and they search it out, they increase it. I, you know, I think our community has a lot of racism. It has sexism. There, you know, there's so many groups in our community that still are underrepresented, even though they're not necessarily underrepresented in the makeup of Toronto. I mean, it's one of the most diverse cities in the world. And we still have a predominantly white gay community that's visible. I think, you know, Transphobia runs deep in the community. I think it has such a long history. And I think that there are still things that people do that perpetuate violence against trans people that they don't even necessarily realize they're still doing. I think a little, just comments, like when you make, you know, you'll hear someone like make fun of someone who maybe isn't quote unquote, passing as they walk by or something and not recognizing that, you know, folks' lives are hard. Like it's hard and people don't have access to things or maybe that's how people want to present, right? And not respecting folks' choices for that. You know, I think there's so much size-ism in our community. I think that there's still a lot of fatphobia and, you know, preference on the certain physique and body type both in men's and women's communities. I don't think it's exclusive to the one. And so I think that, you know, I think as a community, like we have to be able to look at ourselves and say, like what kind of community do we want? Like do we want one where we all sort of band together, remember our history, remember our roots, remember that even today, you know, there's lots of folks who can't, it's not safe for them to come out or like the queer community is the only place that they have that, you know, feeling of safety. And are we going to make it a good place and a positive place where people are safe and upheld or are we just going to, you know, perpetuate these sort of isms over and over again? You said there are some groups that are underrepresented. For example? I think Black folks, folks from South Asian communities, I think trans people, I think from the number of trans people and then the number of trans people that we actually see in community or especially in positions of power within our community, I think young people, I think that, you know, often there's people in their, you know, maybe they're 20s, but I think unless you're old enough for the bar scene, often, you know, young folks' voices aren't being heard. And I mean, I do a lot of work with youth just in general. And, you know, we have this amazing group of kids, you know, even 10, 11 years old who can grasp sexuality and gender and diverse identities. And I know until I started, like, really working with youth, I had no idea that this was even on their radar because it certainly wasn't when, you know, I was 10. And I think they would serve us well to hear them. I also think that there are seniors in our community who, you know, don't get to go to events because they need a ride, who are housebound, who are isolated, who aren't seen as sexual, you know, have a hard time finding partners, aren't taken seriously. And I think that that age gap is such a huge thing, right? Like, we're lucky to have those elders in our community, right? Like, we know that so many got wiped out by the AIDS crisis. Like, it's, you know, to have older people in our community is such a blessing. And to be able to figure out how to have those intergenerational conversations, too, where we get those 10-year-olds, and we get those, you know, 90-year-olds and have those conversations would be amazing. Totally agreed. Tell us about coming out into the Leather King fetish community. Oh, I love this story. So I, when I first got to Toronto, there was a store. It's still there called Out on the Street. And they sold lots of different, you know, sort of gay stuff. But one big thing that they had was patches. And so I had bought some patches. So I bought a rainbow flag and I bought the Leather flag. But at the time, someone had told me that it was the lesbian flag. And I was like, okay. So I sat at the conference and this woman came up to me and she was like, talking to me. And she was like, hey, do you know what that means? And she's like pointing at the Leather flag. And I was like, yeah, obviously I know what it means. It means I'm a lesbian. Clearly you are too. And she's like, no, but like, you do know what it means. And I was like, yeah, like, I know what it means. In my head, I was like, why is she giving me such a hard time? So then she was like, well, there's this women's BDSM discussion group that happens. Do you want to come with me next time? And I was like, in my head, I was like, how does she know I'm interested in this? This is so confusing. I realized I had been walking around for quite some time with Leather flags on my backpack and my hoodie at the time thinking it was just the lesbian flag. And I remember I think what first piqued my interest. I had a partner at the time and she was really into reading. And so I mean, she gave me the story of oh, and we were listening to music that had sort of references to BDSM in it. And so when this woman invited me to this meeting, I was like, I don't even know what this would be like. I have no idea. And walked into, it was at the 519 Community Center, which is part of the village. And there was this big upstairs meeting room and we walked into it. And there had to be like 30 or 45 women in there. And I was terrified. I was clearly the youngest. I mean, there were these big old daddy butchers with Leather jackets and Thames with the heels that went on for days. And I remember we like went around and everyone introduced themselves and I think said like whether they were top or bottom, like that was the big thing. And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea. I probably just chose bottom because I was like, clearly I don't know what I'm doing. But I had that experience in the women's community. And I didn't go back to a meeting for quite some time. It was a bit overwhelming. But at the same time, I also was hanging around with a lot of gay men and a lot of them were Leather men and like bears in the community. And, you know, we'd be sitting on the steps and I'd hear these like stories of like the day after of, oh, I went to such and such, you know, party and there were like crosses everywhere. And so and so was getting whipped. And I was like, I'm so intrigued by this. But they also felt like this like, I don't know, like I knew that as a person who is female identified, like I was not welcome in that space. It was very much like a gay man space. Just imagine what it was like, you know, it's kind of like watching a movie cruising. Like you just imagine what happened in all the other scenes. So yeah, and eventually I found my way back into the discussion group and met other Leather dykes and my partner was into kink stuff and just became part of the community. We started going to play parties and yeah, that was sort of it. And for me, like it almost sort of in the same way that non-monogamy felt like an extension of a queer identity, like so did kink. I think that within a couple of years, like we were so surrounded by people who were in the kink community that that just became for me like almost like part of my queer identity. Like they were inseparable in many ways. Yeah, so that's how I got involved in the community. What are your thoughts on some of the things that you saw or enjoyed? I remember the first time that I went to Patricia Marsh's dungeon, which is in Toronto and it's beautiful. I mean, it's this Victorian house that has all of this play equipment and there's like a medical room and a school room and a boudoir and sort of this cross-dressing room. And I remember walking in and just being like, oh my gosh, this is the kind of thing that you would see in a movie, but it's real. So I think, you know, I was just amazed that like these things I had read about in books and has sort of seen on TV were actually like real places and people did this stuff. And it kind of felt like I was in on a big secret too, right? Like when you're going to these locations for play parties and it's like there's like a password or like you have to like know somebody who knows somebody to get in and be vetted. I mean, I was really excited. Like I was so young. I was 20, like what a crazy world to be in. And now I realize like now that I'm in my 40s and have been around in the community for like more than 20 years, that I think a lot of the things I had access to like I was really privileged to, you know, I think that in Toronto we have this amazing king scene. It definitely has like ebbed and flowed over the years, but I think I'm really lucky that like I found my place and found people also who are willing to teach me things. Because I think that's such a huge component. Was there anything shocking? Oh my God, yeah. You tell. I remember once being at like a women's camping event and walking into the woods, this is like probably the first time I'd ever seen someone playing. I remember walking into the woods and this like big butch woman walked up and was like, do you know what you're about to see? And I was like, yeah, I know what I'm about to see. And then there was like this woman and she was like naked and tied to a tree. And there were all these tops like whipping her with like like bull whips and like floggers, like just all taking turns. And I was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea what I was about to see. That was pretty shocking. I think that I'm trying to think, like I think that at first everything was a bit surprising. Like your first time seeing knife player, first time seeing people playing with needles, like it's surprising. The first time seeing people do water sports, I was like, oh, like people admit that they're into this. Like I think that was part of it too. Like just people doing this in public. I think also the shock of seeing people with diverse bodies who were, you know, naked in public, playing, having people really into their bodies. Like as a fat person, I was like, wow, like this is, you know, I've always been taught to like cover up for purity, but also cover up because I'm fat and I don't deserve these things. And so just to see like people playing and being comfortable with their bodies was incredible to me. Is there anything you wish you had done differently in that whole journey? Hmm. That's a good question. I think it would have been interesting to travel a bit more. I mean, we definitely, we were students at the time. Like we, we didn't have much money. So I had never been to like an international like competition or anything like that. And I think that they may be going to one, even one would have, you know, sort of changed my perspective on how big the community was because I knew that we had this in Toronto. I knew that, you know, there was like Mr. Leather Toronto and Ms. Leather Toronto. But I didn't really understand like the gravity of how big the community was and how connected it was, right? I think that's probably it. I really was a, like, I mean, huge fan of saying yes. And so I think that, you know, if an opportunity came like a jump at it. So I was really, I think I'm lucky in that way because I went to lots of educational stuff. I went to lots of parties. There wasn't a lot that I shied away from. So I think in terms of what I had access to, I didn't have a lot of regrets. You mentioned you went to a lot of educational stuff. Tell us more about that. How did you attend? Yeah, so I think, I mean, there was the women's discussion group, which I was peer led. And so it was, you know, someone would have a topic every, I think it was every month and we would get together and discuss it and have demos. And that's where I learned, you know, about everything from boot blacking to flogging to talking about identities in the community, like all the different, you know, like daddies and sirs and mommies and bottoms. And I, like I mentioned before, the AIDS committee used to do these amazing workshops. I mean, they would fly people in from the States. And, you know, I remember like being in workshops with people like Guy Baldwin and just, you know, and people that I don't know if at the time, because I was so new, I really understood like how important these people were, right? Like I knew that they were sort of a big deal. But now, especially as people have passed away too and, you know, their legacy is sort of being honored. I'm like, wow, like I, you know, I sat in a room with that person for a whole weekend and learned about interrogation or needle play. And I think those workshops were really important too because I think coming from the AIDS committee, you know, they were really focused on harm reduction and safety. And so, and they were exciting workshops. A lot of people went and so I think it's had the standard of like the level of knowledge in our community and safe play that they don't know exists anymore, to be honest. I think that, I think that when those stopped, you know, we lost a huge piece of information. I think the big thing for me, so in, I think it was 2004, I actually flew to Texas to attend boys training camp in Dallas. Tell us more about that because that was a question I was going to bring up. Yeah, so it's, so there were a few people from Toronto who had gone the year before and had like come back to the discussion group and were like, we just had this weekend. It was amazing. And I was like, okay, I have to go and like saved up and scrounged everything but I could go the next year. And basically it was, as a weekend in Dallas, I don't know how many years it happened before. I think it happened one year after the year I was there and then sort of closed down. But you would send in an application and it was like a really intense application outlining like why you wanted to go. And then if you were collared, your top or sir or daddy or whoever it was would actually have to sign a consent saying that you had permission to go and that you were collared to the event for the weekend. And so getting there, I think there were 25 of us who attended as attendees from all over North America. And there were just lots of people who were they weren't all tops or daddies. Like there were other submissives there. There were slaves there who sort of made up the staff team and ran workshops like the whole, I think it was four days long around everything from protocol and high leather dinners to this is how you keep yourself safe. Collaring, are you sure you're a boy? Is that how you identify as a submissive? Like is this what's right for you? How do you watch out for other submissives in the community who especially ones who aren't collared? And a lot of it focused on sort of that I say brotherhood, but like in a very gender neutral way that brotherhood of identifying as a leather boy regardless of your gender and how we make that community and share knowledge and keep each other safe. There was a play party the one night that was sort of like the big event that we had and it was all stations of the cross so you could go around and just, you know go up to whoever was running it and be like, hey, like I have no experience with this. This is what I'd like. And it was nice because the tops who were running it like they knew that that's what was expected and so they were like gentle, right? Like they were like, okay, like let me help you walk through this and really, I mean, I think demonstrated like how to negotiate a scene in a really good way, which was great too. And so it was just an amazing learning experience. I mean, I met incredible people. It's for me, I think taught me a lot about, you know less about like the technical parts of DS and more about the community parts, right? Like how do you show respect in the community? What do you do when someone doesn't deserve respect in the community? How do you look out for other people? You know, how do subs keep the community running in some ways in terms of charity events and volunteering and how do you carry yourself? How do you carry yourself as a leather person regardless of your role? You know, I think there'd be some people in the community who would like refer to it like, you know, that sort of old guard leather which is like a whole loaded thing but I think that piece around protocols around respect in the community and I think that that was a really important piece and I loved it. It was absolutely life-changing on so many levels and yeah, and I wish that more events like that existed now for sure. Do you identify as a boy or a sub? So I did for many, many years. I was in service, identified as a leather boy, took a break from the community for a while just, you know, was having kids doing a master's degree, that whole thing and ended up in a relationship. I mean, I had always identified as a switch when it came to play but ended up in a relationship as a daddy and love it. I absolutely love it. And I think that for me, I think part of that community building piece I'm so passionate about is also about caregiving and I feel like as a daddy, like I am able to care for people in the community and for, you know, some submissives and boys and I just, I like being in that role. I like the mentorship piece. I also like, you know, beating boys and having them around, serving girls too. I mean, so I'm definitely, I'm not one of those people who thinks that like, that there's this progression. Like if you're a boy, then you become a daddy or if you were a daddy, like you necessarily had to be a boy and I'm always really clear about that that I don't think that there's that progression. I think that, you know, there's people who are boys who will be boys for life and they're so good at what they do. I also think that there's some daddies who would be awful boys. They'd be terrible boys. They're respectful. They, you know, really care about how they treat submissives but I don't think they could do it themselves because it's a really hard position. It's, you know, one of the most difficult things I think in our community. And so I think, you know, I'd just like to be clear that for me like that it's been my journey but certainly is not for everybody. You alluded to something, you mentioned something when you were talking about the boys training. I forgot the training camp. Sorry about that. You said that there was discussion about how to treat people who do not deserve respect in the community. Tell us a little bit about that. I find that fascinating. Yeah, I think that I think that there was this expectation depending on which communities you were a part of or what circles you were moving in that especially so as a boy I was expected, you know there was this community expectation that I would refer to everybody with their titles so whether it was sir or daddy or master that, you know, if someone told me to do something like I think there's this idea in some communities that like a submissive is like the community submissive. So, you know, you can just turn around and be like why get me a beer and like for some reason you deserve that and I think that, you know, in some situations it's fine in some situations, you know, depending there are certainly, you know, boys in our community who do a lot of service for other people but I think that there is this expectation and I think that often what you see is that there are people in our community who tend to be the ones who have a lot of red flags around them who just don't show respect to other people and I think don't show respect to boys like even if you're asking a random boy to get you something like there either has to be some negotiation or at least some respect, right? Yes. And there's lots of people who don't show that and so I think, you know, clarifying that like for myself in the community, I mean there's people I don't like, there's people that I don't think, you know, deserve much respect because of how they carry themselves and how they treat others and I'm always kind to them because that's the person that I am like I always treat people with respect whether they deserve it or not but I think there's a huge difference between that and holding someone up in the community as a leader in their position so for instance my boy knows in his contract that he's always expected to be respectful if we're at an event but it's up to him whether he ever uses honorifics for somebody and he only uses honorifics if he feels that they deserve that respect. Fascinating. Because I would never ask him to call someone sir who, you know, is known for treating people badly you don't earn that title or you earn that title you don't just get it in the same way that, you know, the people who call me who call me daddy or sir in the community like they know me, they've seen me, they know who I am and I certainly would not expect someone else's boy to call me daddy or another, you know, another top in the community unless they felt that I had, that I had earned that it's, you know, I'm a big fan of like silver-earning leather and that piece and I think that titles are also something that have to be earned. I would agree. Yes. Let's take a step slightly over to one side. You have been a facilitator at the Women in Trans SM Discussion Group. Is that different from the other one you've referenced? A little bit. So that group was started in the 90s. I mean, it ran for over a decade and then just sort of ended for quite a while and I knew that, but there were still lots of things going on in the community. But like I said, I sort of left the community for a while went off, was doing other stuff and came back to it and I was excited because I thought it was going to look exactly the same way it always had. I thought that, you know, and I think that whole time in my head I was like, oh, it's fine. I'm taking this little break because I'm going to come back and all these things are still going to be here for me. And it wasn't true. I, you know, my boy was brand new into leather, kink, the community and I was like, you know, this is great. We'll go to workshops. I could brush up my skills. I'm always learning new things. So it would be great and there just wasn't anything. And I kept telling these nostalgic stories about this Women's Discussion Group and how great it was. And finally, we were out of women's leather like meet up at the Black Eagle and it was like the first time that I had seen a lot of people in, I mean, years. And I finally turned to them and I was like, you know, why don't we see if we can start that discussion group again? Like, is this something that you're willing to commit your time to and, you know, and also be a little bit more out, right? Because once you're doing sort of more stuff in the community, like, there's more chance of you being out and people knowing. And he was like, yeah, let's do it. And so I talked to the original person, I mean, who had started the group. And I just said, like, you know, this is the loss I'm feeling in the community. This is why I think this is important. I think that, you know, sometimes a break is good and, you know, we can make the changes that needed to be changed. I think, you know, specifically naming trans people as like a core part of the group was really important. And can I have your blessing to start it again? And she was like, yeah, go ahead. So we've been running it now, I think for three years. And we were, we were meeting at Glad Day, which was wonderful, although very tiny. But I think that also speaks to the lack of queer space in Toronto now that spaces that do exist are so like in such high demand. But we were meeting at Glad Day. And it was a lot of fun. I mean, you know, some folks that were, the people I consider to be like the older people with knowledge when I was young came out to the meetings. There were lots of new younger folks. And things were going good. We hosted some play parties. It was a lot of fun. And then COVID hit. And as soon as COVID hit, we made the decision to go online and start meeting over Zoom, thinking it would just be a couple of months. Like I think that's what everybody thought, right? No matter what. And we made that decision and had good attendance. And, you know, I think it offers a different way of doing workshops too, especially, you know, the opportunity to be anonymous. We don't, you know, force people to turn on their cameras and stuff, although most people do. And over the course of, I mean, the year and a half of the pandemic, we have, I think our group online now has like 300 members. We always get about 35 to 40 people out to, like each month's discussion. They're still facilitated by members of the community. So it's all volunteer. For me, I want people to feel like it's their group and that they have a responsibility also towards educating other people in the community. And we have people joining us from all over the world now. You know, even as far away as Scotland, it's been amazing. And so we've made the decision that even once we can start meeting back in person, that we're going to continue doing the online monthly meeting because it's also allowed us to, you know, have access to other facilitators and other people who have different experience. And it's been amazing, but it's also been a really great way, I think, to stay connected as a community. You know, we were kind of contempling what to do in December because it's a couple of days after Christmas and, you know, folks are busy and still made the decision just to have a social night and we'll just play some online games and you don't really have a discussion. But I think, you know, we recognize the need and we have that need for people to still come together in community, especially when we're so isolated, even as things are kind of opening up again. What's been the biggest challenge in managing that? I think the biggest challenge has probably been... I think one of them is getting facilitators. I think that there is this expectation that people have that if, like, if they want to facilitate on something, they have to be an expert. And we really try to do away with that. Like, I always say, you know, you don't have to be an expert. You just have to be able to lead a conversation and we can even help with that. Because I think, you know, one of the beauties of a two-hour long discussion is that, you know, you get input from other people. So let's say we're talking about flogging, right? Like, there's all different people who know different pieces and so it's that information sharing. But I also, you know, I want to encourage people who might not have experienced public speaking, leading groups, doing education pieces, you know, to help mentor them to get, like, to have those skills. And I feel like our group is a really, you know, kind and generous group where you can, you know, you can mess up and it's not a big deal, like no one cares. And so I'm hoping that, you know, people are getting those skills and people are starting to facilitate, like, more than once. Because I think it would be great if, you know, especially, like, some of the younger people in our group are, like, you know, in their early 20s. Imagine if they have this experience and then their 30s become, you know, educators in the wider pink community. It would be incredible. And so I would love that to be a piece that grows out of our group. But I think, you know, bolstering people's self-esteem and saying, like, it's fine. It's fine that you have no experience, you have no idea what you're doing. Like, like, let's, you know, meet by Zoom ahead of time and we can walk you through it and how to do this. And let's talk about this topic that you think no one wants to talk about. From your perspective, what are some of the differences you notice between the Canadian scene and, for example, the U.S. scene or other scenes? Oh, that's a good one. I think one of the big, I don't know if it's a difference or not, but I think that Americans don't understand how expensive it is for Canadians to travel. So I notice a lot of the time, like, Americans seem to go from event to event to event. And it's not terribly expensive. I mean, it's definitely very financially challenging for a number of people. But I think in comparison to Canadians, first of all, if we're traveling to the States, I mean, obviously there's the exchange rate and our dollar is not worth much at all anymore. But even to travel with in Canada, I mean, our airfare is so much more expensive. Hotels tend to be a bit more expensive and we're a lot more spread out. And so it's really, it's really expensive to travel. I mean, even as much as, you know, I still really want to go to a lot of the competitions and different conferences and stuff. I mean, we're talking, you know, sometimes it's a year of saving to get two of us there because it's, you know, it's thousands of dollars. I think also, I mean, I don't know that there's a lot of difference between, you know, styles of play styles of dress that I think that as you travel, you kind of, you know, each community has its little quirks about it. I do think though that in Canada, there's a lot more people who are isolated from their communities just because of of how much spread there is. I mean, you know, around here, like we have Montreal, we have Ottawa, we have Toronto that all have like somewhat large communities. I'm sure there's probably something in Winnipeg, maybe Calgary and for sure Vancouver. But outside of that, I mean, that's like covering an entire country. Those are sort of the big communities that off the top of my head, I know of that have events and stuff. And so, you know, sometimes I think about like, oh, if I lived in San Francisco, or if I lived in, you know, Chicago, like how easy it would be to sort of get around and get to different events. I also though think that we're pretty hardy here. And so, I'd like to think that, you know, our bottoms played a bit harder, our tops played a bit harder, because we're just used to surviving, right? Like we survive our winters, we're close to famine sometimes. Yeah, I think that for sure, like when you have less access to community, you're more appreciative of the community that you have. And so, I think that that sometimes is one of the differences I notice, is that Canadians are just really grateful to be in community and so excited. I've always, you know, sometimes I hear like, oh, you Canadians, you always bring the party. I'm like, we have to bring the party. We're really excited to be here. You do this all the time. This is a huge deal. So. What's the biggest misconception about you? Oh, that's a really, that might be a hard one. I think, I think that sometimes, and this is more, I think now that I'm in a role in the community as a top, I think that there is this, like idea of me as like this big, scary top who is not approachable or, you know, like every once in a while, I have someone say like, I'm not afraid to talk to you. And I'm like, I'm literally probably the nicest person you'll ever meet. Like I'm like a puppy who like is at a pound. And I'm just like, be my friend, be my friend, be my friend, be my friend. I mean, I certainly, you know, I play hard. I love that. But I also, you know, I'm super friendly. I'm really all about building community. I love new people and not because I'm like, I don't know who new people, but because I want to see people thrive in our community and come into their own. I, you know, I'd love for folks to feel the same support that I had. And so I think that's probably the biggest misconception is that like, either I'm like just big and scary or, or that because like I run groups or I'm, you know, insert some leadership positions that like I'm not approachable. I don't really like show up with the butter tart. And I'm your best friend. Like what do you need? Leather Dad Jason. Thank you for an amazing interview for Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. Thanks for having me. This is wonderful. I'm so glad that you're helping to keep our history alive. It's my pleasure. I assure you.