 on this. Okay. So, hi everyone. I'm Justin Tadlock, a developer advocate through automatic on the WordPress.org project. Co-hosted with Ryan, he's wearing this, we're on the same team, so doing the same stuff. Like, we today, we're going to just talk about issues, pain points, or even things we enjoy about migrating short codes, widgets, whatever you may have from the two to a block. And this is Panther. He joins with us all the time. And yeah, so that's going to be the big topic. We could talk about, you know, if you have issues with documentation, like where the, you know, what are we missing? Hopefully we can, and this is 20 really cats are going to be all around today. Sorry. Yeah, so if there's issues with documentation, like, tell us about them, like we want to fix that we want to address it, or just bring up examples, you want to get feedback from either one of us or somebody else in the audience. So, yeah, I think we're going to skip through like all the introductions because we've got a pretty big crowd today. So, a big thing anybody have like questions they want to start with, like, I would just tell us about your experiences. And if you're not comfortable, like speaking on camera, that's okay. I'll be keeping an eye on the chat and I'll ask you a question for you. You can message me directly if that's more comfortable for you or whatever works. So, feel free to ask away. Yeah, no questions yet. I'm always happy to speak up if no one wants to jump in front of me. Well, we know you're, that's why I enjoy having Nick around. Go ahead. He ain't scared to ask. Well, this isn't necessarily a question, but it's more of a comment. When you're transitioning from like short codes or widgets to blocks, at least I know for myself, you need to create or one of the goals is to create an interface in the editor that has toggle switches, has date pickers, has, you know, components that maybe you didn't have in a short code. And what I got hung up on when I first started doing that transition is thinking that I need to build all those things myself and you don't for the most part. And so like the component reference in the block editor handbook is great because it has all the different components that you might want to use toggles and dropdowns and all that stuff. But one of the things that isn't handled very well in the block editor handbook currently is components that are also that are underneath the block editor package or some of the other packages that you can also use. In the handbook, they're like pulled in like in a convoluted way. So even though that there's actually some good documentation on GitHub for it, it doesn't actually appear in the handbook and it can be kind of like hard to navigate. Now I'm very comfortable with just going to GitHub and finding all that information. But I think that as we look forward into this 2023, improving the handbook in a way that some of these components that really make it once you understand how to use the components, which granted is a hurdle. But once you understand how to use the components, being able to really easily access a directory with all the components, have the documentation there in one place, I think would be an aspirational good improvement to the handbook. Obviously there's a lot of work there, but components are like the key to transitioning from shortcuts to blocks. Yeah, this might be a good opportunity on that point to mention the Storybook tool. All the Gutenberg components have an interactive page. It's not well linked actually from the handbook to the Storybook page. I just dropped a link to it in chat there. If you're interested for the Storybook instance, that's a really great way of playing around with the components and seeing what props are available and what you can do with each one. And then you can copy and paste the code from the Storybook into your project with all the settings that you want or default settings. Yeah. Michael, did you make a ticket the other day to link the docs to the Storybook page, like the component docs to the Storybook page? I have created a preliminary PR, just doing a kind of a proof of concept, linking a handful of reference pages from the handbook to the corresponding pages in the Storybook. Just to get some feedback of layout and positioning of putting this thing in the page. Yeah. I remember, yeah. You can comment on that PR. Let me grab the PR and stick it in the comments. In the chat, rather, bear with me. Yeah, I think I remember when I first started, you know, I just jumped into the actual code, Gutenberg repository. Like, yeah, I had trouble understanding some of the components and how they, how it all worked. And I kind of knew about the Storybook tool, but I didn't really know how it worked. Like at that point, I didn't know how it fit together. I just thought it was like some neat thing that I didn't know about, but I didn't know how to use them. And I think, yeah, I'd like kind of bring in the docs and that tool together, can kind of bridge some of the like gaps or maybe help people have those, you know, light bulb moments or things come together a bit more. But yeah, I'll be honest, I still go to, I know we work on the handbook, but I still go to the code. So, you know, I feel like it does need to improve. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely see what you're saying, Nick, about the discoverability, because it's, the documentation is great as long as you know where to look for it, if that makes sense. Like if I want to work on the rich text component, which, I mean, for a lot of block developers, they would use that for a number of things. They have to know that that's not actually in the components, that's in the block editor package, right? So knowing where that is, is the hard part. And I remember the first few times I ever really dove into Gutenberg and tried to like figure out like, you know, there's just package up the package of the package and figuring out where that stuff lives. So it is, there's definitely some work being done in 2023 to improve the handbook in the sense of discoverability. And yeah, it's, yeah, that's a tough nut to crack because we have lots of packages and lots of, lots of components that don't always live in the components package, they live in various places. But yeah, the one thing I just wanted to get across is like, handbook is going to take some time to get modified or whatever. But just for those that didn't know that all these components exist, check out the packages. Like over the weekend, I was playing around with uploading media. And there's a component for that. And like once you know that the component exists, and you can modify it slightly the way you want it, it's great. And you didn't have to do anything. You just drop in the component, change a few things and you're ready to go. Does a lot of complicated things under the hood that you don't need to worry about. So just paying attention to all the packages and do a good search before you start trying to implement something yourself. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'll definitely agree. Yeah, if you just take some time once a week or so and just look through the packages, you don't have to study all the code. Just like know, okay, here's where this lives. That goes a long ways toward just yeah, knowing where things are. That's the big thing. For sure. One tool that I've found that was very helpful for me. Now I'm very comfortable doing this. So maybe folks are not, but adding the React and Redux Chrome add-ons will actually, in your inspector controls, you can actually inspect and get the component name of something that you're looking at. So if you're comfortable doing that, that at least would give you the name of the thing that you're looking for. So then you can do a search in GitHub or in the handbook to find it. Because some of the component names may not match what you're thinking they're supposed to be doing or they're being used for something else or they're wrapped up inside of another component that's named something else. And so that's a roundabout way of getting there. My camera just went all blurry. I don't know what that was about, but in the hand. Yeah. Is he somebody? Jacques Sauvea has asked, said that it's tough to find good tutorials on FSE and blocks. And then Victor just above has said that he's had a good, great experience with the courses on Learn WordPress. And there is an introductory course. I'm just putting the link in now. If you're just getting started with block development, there's this course on then. There's also the developer blog, which is still technically in beta, and there's new content being added all the time. Historically in WordPress, having tutorial content as part of WordPress.org has always been sort of difficult because we don't sort of link out to third parties. Those tutorials aren't necessarily always kept up to date. So this is a new initiative. Well, I mean, how was it now? A year? Half a year or something? It's been around a little while and we're slowly adding content to it. But this is going to be more an official resource of tutorial content. Obviously, we've got 20 years of WordPress to build tutorials for. So if anyone wants to help, that would be great. But so this is a place to keep an eye on. Justin just wrote a really awesome article on intrinsic design, which I need to read because I don't really fully understand what that means yet. But yes, a lot of great content on there. Yeah, we're still all learning what it means, I think. Yeah, that was really fun to explore because there's a lot I didn't just understand myself even coming from a design background. But yeah, that's not really less to do with block development than it is theme development. I do see that Lisa Snyder had a question. I actually had this very same question come up via the support forums the other day. She asked, if I want to display next and previous posts in the same category, post tag or other tax taxonomy term, do I need to create a custom block or is there a way to make use of the next and previous blocks? Yes, you can use a filter, I think. It was, but it was kind of a big workaround. But I can look that up and share that specific code with you after the show. I'll be happy to do that because I wrote it to help somebody. But we also have a ticket on the Gutenberg repository to enable that. It's a feature with the PHP on the PHP side, the function. So it just needs to be integrated into the block. There is a ticket and I'll see if I can find that. But yeah, you don't need to create a whole block for it. You can, but you can get around it. There is a query loop block automatically have next and previous links. It's within the same category. That's the missing part. It's not the query loop. It's the next and previous posts. So that's actually, is that part of the, it's not the multiple posts paid, like the archive type pages. This is for single posts, from what I understand from this portion. Oh, right. Okay. Okay. I'm misunderstanding the question. Yeah, a singular post. Yeah, same question. Yeah, she confirmed that. Sorry, just at least I sort of had a follow-up question about when do you need a custom block versus a block creation or whatever. I think that's a, as with most things development, the answers depends. And I would say like for me, as soon as there's something, as soon as it becomes more work or more awkward for me to extend one of the core blocks, that's when I start looking at a custom block. For example, back in my agency days, we had, the button block was always a bit of the, you know, the bane of our existence because there was so many options and the designs never accommodated for all the options that it provided. So instead of trying to filter away all the options, we just wrote around. And so that's a good, because it's less work to do that than it is to undo all the things that are there. So as soon as it doesn't do what you need it to do and you can't simply extend it using, you know, one of the various block filters, maybe that's when I would start looking at a custom block, I think. Yeah, I'd add to that for me personally, it's more like, is this more PHP or more JavaScript? If I could do it all in PHP, I'm just happy to, even if it's a little more work, I'll sometimes lean toward the PHP solution. But yeah, so sometimes that means not creating custom blocks when it would really make sense to do so. There's another question here from Andrew. Does the WPCore team plan on spearheading any kind of initiative to standardize how plugin developers should create their admin settings? Since we all, since we all have these React components now, should we be using these for our plugin UI settings? I don't know if there's an initiative in place to standardize that. But I mean, we've had sort of the same look and feel for the admin for quite some time. And I think it's best practice to try to match the admin experience that WordPress provides now that we have all these components and everything. I think in my opinion, yes, you should use them. You should try to match them as much as possible. It actually makes your life easier because all the CSS is baked in, all the functionalities there, it does the majority of what you're trying to do. If you don't have a control that you need, there are building blocks to be able to create one. For example, for a long time, there wasn't like a color wheel, like a color picker. So there was like a color component. And then it was like, there's all the tools that you can put together to create your own, but they all came from core. You're going to save a lot of time, I think, and a lot of engineering cycles by not trying to create your own UI, just use what's there. But again, I don't think that's a part and fast rule. I mean, it depends on what you're doing. But I mean, you really want to create your own UI? Yeah. Since we're talking about specifically admin settings pages here, I think it'd be worthwhile to have some tutorial, maybe get Ryan to write it, or show it on video. How can you build a settings page using these components? It's kind of like you can jump to blocks and that's all done. You have your whole page already, you just built the block, like when you're talking about the side editor or post editor, but what if you're building a settings page itself and you want to use some of these components? Funny you should mention that. I'm pretty sure I have one on my YouTube channel somewhere. I'll pick it up. Yeah, that would be interesting. Yeah, I need to watch that if you have it. Oh, yeah, I'll find it. I think you should definitely start trying to build out those types of admin pages. I think in the future, relatively soon, we're going to start to get some guidance on what they should look like. But if you've already built your admin page and using WordPress components, if the admin gets updated in a year or two, it will be easy to modify to match the design. I'm building all my plugins now with the React components. I think anything you can do to learn the React components now will benefit you in the long run. But it's just in terms of admin settings pages, like it's simple still to build, you know, use add settings page, add option, whatever the function calls are that exist. But yeah, I mean, I want to build everything like with the components we have just like, I don't know if some of you know about heard of like the fields API from like years ago, I think there's still work going on with it. But I like just to have that standardization across all of WordPress. Like you don't need to like, I remember a time we were building with a widgets API, we were building, you know, settings, and then themes had their own thing on top of the settings and or yeah, then you had the customizer is just dashboard widgets also. So like, yeah, I'm hoping we get to a place where all those things, there's just one way to do them. And that will make all of our lives much easier. Yeah, for sure. And if you do use the built in stuff, if something changes in core, like we like I've seen, we've seen some, you know, there's been some some posts on make that were pressed or about like revamping the UI, like revamping the look and feel of the admin experience. So if you're using the baked in components that come with core, and then they make changes, you're going to get, you're going to benefit from all those changes, you're not going to have to go back as a plugin developer a year later and rebuild everything to match the UI. It'll just inherit those changes. This is a pet peeve of mine, but in the WordPress admin where you can change like the color scheme, it annoys me when like I have my color scheme set and then like third party plugins don't match that color scheme. But when you use WordPress components, they do. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's that demonstrates the point. Yeah, and I know in the past, they were like, if you wanted to introduce, you needed to introduce something custom custom to a settings page that WordPress just didn't have styles for, there was not an easy way to even get the color. Like if it got every, if WordPress updated its color, you need to update your plugin, you know, to because like I don't know, we have CSS variables now or properties, custom properties. Yeah. So I mean, there was a time when that didn't exist. So it's a dark time. It was a dark time in the web. Yeah. All right. We do have a couple of things in the chat. Yeah, I'm just Victor is asking about my big question on admin is the borderline case of admin slash user slash app editing custom field types in custom fields and blocks without having to resort to a vendor lock in plugin and possible non CPT approaches to content modeling. That's a big question on my mind. Sorry, Victor. I'm not sure I understand the question. It feels like you want to use custom post meta without like a plugin that provides the interface. Is that Yeah, if I may interject. This may be beyond the scope of this meeting. I don't know. I've been looking at a lot of your materials, Ryan. And basically, I feel that content modeling is part of if we're not in Kansas anymore, content modeling is a big part of making any any web app, right? So I must have content types and I must have custom fields. How does that fit in? Now, I'm noticing I can do stuff like make a reusable block or even my own plugin and react to edit. I don't want to do anything sui generous. I don't want to invent the wheel, but neither do I want to go outside of Gutenberg. And I don't necessarily want to depend on php is back in for my modeling also. So it's a big question I have. As I say, maybe beyond the scope right now. But but you know, I'm in a position where I'm very, you know, I feel quite proficient in react, but not in WordPress. So I'm only had a few years of WordPress. So I'm sure my questions are going to be answered in time. But WordPress is almost becoming after examining all the full stack frameworks that are coming out. WordPress is going to be my full stack framework. So it's like I just want to run that by you because you may not be aware that there are people like like me that are looking at that. In other words, get the benefit of WordPress as a no code editor for users. But I must have the possibility of editing content types and stuff. And I was depending on one plugin that I won't mention the name. And they had blocks that you could, you know, you could make dynamic blocks easily in a no code way. And I could marshal my data. And then they put out a notice saying, okay, well, Gutenberg doesn't know where it's going. So we're going to wait. We're not going to do any new development anymore. And so, you know, when you pay yearly subscription to something like that, you know, so, you know, I know react, I can I can program. So I'm just presenting my problem. I'm not pretending an answer to this, but that's really a necessity for me to move forward on these points. I think that making my own plugins. And I'm very excited about various different plugins, WP engine has some stuff, you know, open source. So, you know, I'm going to be moving in that direction. I'm going to be asking a lot of questions in that direction. I'm going to make some projects and try to exemplify this as time goes by. But it's really, it was a deal breaker with me with WordPress a few years ago, but I'm really excited about what WordPress is doing and attempting to do in a very democratic way, really making tech web app tech available to small businesses and organizations. And I'm going to move forward on this point. If anybody has any anything to suggest to me or any paths that I should examine, please let me know. Otherwise, in a similar chat to this one, maybe I'll present some more specific questions. Sorry for taking up your time. No, that's why we're here. It's totally fine. Yeah, that's a lot. There's a lot there. You can definitely, I mean, from what I'm sort of hearing you described, it's all possible. It's just whether or not you want to write your own code to do it, I think at this point. And then there is the issue of vendor lock in with plugins and themes and all those things. But like being able to manage your own data, you can do that being able to register custom post types that also have data points associated with them completely doable. And then you can write the blocks to retrieve that post meta and also write back to that post meta right inside the block editor. There's a lot of possibilities. There's definitely, I think WordPress has the tools in place to be able to do everything that you're wanting to do. I think maybe the missing piece is that no code aspect if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. And then you would be looking at sort of some third party plugins and things to be able to manage that without having to write your own code to do so. I hope that helps. I don't know. Yeah, as Ryan says, pretty much anything's possible with WordPress. But I think to a certain extent WordPress does tie you into its data structure in that everything is either a post or post meta in terms of content. Anything you want to do, you'd have to kind of shoehorn into it being a post or post meta. But you've got the option of creating your own database tables. There's a API in WordPress where you can create custom tables in addition to what is it, 11 tables at the standard installed cell rates. I have no idea if this is related at all, but I'm going to drop this in the chat. This was an interesting experiment people were doing with Gutenberg. It might not be relevant at all, but when you were talking and made me think of this, people were doing interesting experiments with pushing Gutenberg to the next level. That's pretty neat. That's sort of one of the powerful things about this. In my previous life, as an agency guy, we built something internally like this for a client. It was an e-newsletter builder. We just ingested all the packages from Gutenberg and we were able to build up this amazing interface with very little work on our end because we had everything already built. This is really cool. Thanks for sharing that, Nick. I was going to say, did I miss the link or what was it? Yes, I see it now. I think earlier, we had a couple of people mention early in the chat that they're just still early in the block learning process. Just a question to y'all. Have y'all tried just the CreateBlock package and walked through the... I have a job interview today. Okay. Have you walked through the CreateBlock package and the tutorial there? I have a job interview today. Okay. Steve. I just muted Steve there. Steve, I don't think you realize you were wrong. We're good luck on your job interview. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, feedback from people who are just getting started. There's the link in the chat from Ryan. Yeah. I mean, so we're getting feedback from Lisa in the chat. Oh, yeah. Was that the learn WordPress tutorial that Michael did from earlier? Somebody mentioned. I don't know. So, I mean, did y'all have... I mean, did you run into any issues? Pain points were just getting up and started with just the basic tutorial on what through the CreateBlock package. I avoided it for almost the entire time it existed when I started. I was like, I just wanted to use my known build process. I spent an entire year developing my own build process. This is before Block Development was around. I was like, I'm really happy with this. Me and a few other people, I was like, I don't have to think about it. I can just type a couple of commands. It's done. Now, all of a sudden, there's a whole new thing. I really didn't want to do it at all. But once I made that leap, I was like, oh, this is so simple. At least the build process is not the... I need to learn JavaScript deeply aspect of it. That's just a great getting started process. If anybody's shyed away from it, it's not too bad. It might be worth mentioning also that you don't actually need to use React and all this build processes to create a block. There's a series of tutorials on Learn Word Press by Jonathan Bossinger on how to build a block without React. Let me see if I can find a link. Yeah, I've actually built one from, you know, vanilla JavaScript before. I feel like most of our docs though, you're going to want to learn some basic React just to be able to read through the default core code and read through a lot of the documentation. But yeah, just getting started. I cannot remember offhand. I'm sure I wrote about it when I was formerly a writer at WP Tavern. I'm almost positive I linked that plugin in some article about that experience. There's somebody who had a block plugin on WordPress.org that was in vanilla JavaScript. It wasn't minified or I couldn't find the code was all there. I was like, oh, this is great. I knew enough JavaScript to understand what his code does and I could replicate it for my own plugin. I would like to see a little bit more of that just as a transitioning thing for people who have more of a PHP background and or just a really low level like JS background like I did. So any cool blocks that anybody's built recently? I knew like our topic is short codes and widgets to migrating them to blocks. Has anybody done that or just any blocks recently? They've just enjoyed building hitting a quiet spot here now. If you want to, I could show you a recent block I did share. Yeah, that's it. All right. Yes, please. Yeah, so let me, I'll hit share screen. Let's see desktop. All right. Let's see if I can move some of this zoom stuff out of the way. All right. Yeah, so everybody see my screen good? Yes. All right. So originally this was, I'm just an older plugin. I guess literally just a short code like clean my work halves if you could sit up and it just lists your site archive. I only have like four posts on this demo install. Pretty simple like concepts. And yeah, so like a professional project lately, I've been, I've created a block from this. And yeah, so how can I minimize? Yeah, I can't see half my browser. There we go. Yeah. So, you know, instead of the like plain short codes, you have like an actual block you can see in the editor. I'm just so happy like we're at this point and like WordPress's insistence because short codes kind of sucked, you know, from a user experience standpoint. And like this was like the very first one of the very first blocks I started on like two years ago. And like I picked like the most advanced thing I could do like get data from the database and I had no clue how to do it. Like and you have these like get entity type and Ryan actually knows this stuff more by heart probably. But yeah, so this short code you can, you know, break it down to the year, which there's no posts in 2023. I actually can break it down by month too. Yeah. And my favorite thing is actually this tool panel. I love building those. I love it too. Is it experimental? Are you using the experimental one? Yeah, it probably it probably is. I don't care. I can hide things and get them by the way. It's awesome. I love it. Yes. So yeah, I mean, I just for me, I'm just super excited about like these are ideas like what we can do in the block editor. These are not new ideas. We've been wanting like this UI representation of like the front end for since, you know, everything began. So I'm just like really super excited about being able to like go on this journey, learn how to build these things. It's a little slower now than I feel like it was years ago when I was just a young developer and no responsibilities but to learn how to code and could stay up 20 hours a night, you know, a day. But yeah. But I think I don't have three or four block plugins now. And so I'm ready. I'm finally ready to like, you know, publish this here hopefully soon. Like this has been, you know, like I said, I think I started on it two years ago and then I stopped. So last week I kind of put some finishing touches on it. But yeah, don't start with like the most advanced thing you can think of. Start with something simple and fun. I always think like for me, like I built this random like footer message generator, like, like just get back to the basis and do something really fun that may not be popular. Nobody really needs it. And but it's just something to learn the basics and then move on to your more advanced stuff after that. There's a question from Lisa in the chat. Is there a problem using multiple query loop blocks on a page? I don't think so. And the reason I don't think so is because traditionally, if you're building a theme, there's a very good chance that you could have a sidebar that's got three different widgets that those three widgets do three different queries, then you've got your main query on the page. And then maybe you've got like a slider that shows certain like, I think, I think it's more of a question of like, is your site set up okay to handle queries? Are they cash properly? Do you have object caching? Do you have, you know, page caching? I think if you were to put a thousand blocks on there, that might slow things down. But that if you're doing a thousand queries on a page, that's going to get slowed down anyways. So I think you're okay within reasons. It's the same idea of saying, should I do like a minus one query where I get all the posts? And it's okay if you don't have 10,000 posts. If you've got five, you'll get five. If you've got 10,000, you'll crash your site. But so no, I think you're probably okay within sort of some reasonable expectations. Yeah, great question, really great question. Yeah, actually, when I was building that block, I like in the admin, I was loading all posts, like my original demo site had like a few hundred and that was like taking forever to load. So I did put in that specific case a limit on what the number that will show up in the admin or in the editor, even if it doesn't, it's not limited on the front end, because I realized that was a bit of a problem. But yeah, as far as multiple queries, I think also how many pages would you actually have multiple queries on? Like a lot of times you might see that on the front page. But on like your single post page or you know, just regular pages, you know, usually running a ton of queries. I don't, I think you have like just those few instances where it's not really a problem, especially if you have good caching. Yeah, like if you're running a sidebar on every single page, that cat that that query is going to be cached. It's going to like WordPress inherently caches its queries anyways. So you're not like you're probably not even hitting the database on every single page. You're probably just getting a cash version of that. I mean, not hitting the databases, if you have using a transient API, and you don't have object cache, then yes, you're hitting the database, but you're not rebuilding that query every single time. Just wondering what the motivation is behind that question. I'm wondering, did Lisa, maybe she can explain, did you actually encounter a problem? Is that why you're asking the question? In which case, what kind of problem did you encounter? Yeah, that would be good to know. Like, that's who the query queries on the page. Yeah, I do remember, even before blocks, that was a common question with interesting development, like people would have front pages with like, you know, seven or eight sections, they each have their own query. And I don't think that was really ever a major problem. Yeah, I was more worried about like, you got 150 images on the front page than, you know, the query aspect of that. All right, Derek asks, are there, there are plans to add responsive controls to certain blocks like columns? Oh boy, right now they just collapse automatically. I need to ask. I agree that having responsive controls like that, like in the other page, voters can have a complicated the experience and goes against the Gutenberg aims too. However, that's something and I and probably more does find a limit, a limit limiting. Yeah, if you did catch catch that I wrote about that on the developer blog, I think it was last last Thursday is probably the most recent article still. Yeah, so this is a hot topic. I think I was fielding question comments and Twitter responses for an entire day. All right, so the goal right now is to start off and like this in transit design mindset, like what can or what can we do to not like what are the how can we lay out blocks without these extra controls like just automatically what what methods can we use to do this like get this foundation in place and then come to then figure out what controls we need on top of that. So like I feel like the columns block like that's one area that really needs some more like fine tuned control. I think so much you may have mentioned that one specifically because it's just impossible to lay out every you know permutation of that you know easily would just interest in transit design methods are because you just don't know what what the use case is beforehand. So but I think for a lot of the blocks that's okay we don't need these responsive controls necessarily because as developers we don't know how the user is going to stick something and where it's going. So we want that experience to be really great like if a user sticks you know an image somewhere we just wanted to work is it in a sidebar is in the footer header you know post content and the same with other blocks and yes so like kind of then there's UI aspect also like you keep you start adding a lot of controls it's obviously kind of clutter things up and it become it can become more confusing so you have to like trade carefully when building that because once you put it in you have this technical that that's that that you can't get rid of for years and that's even less fun sometimes. So did that kind of address what you're asking well or do you have a yeah. I do want to mention one thing though and which may or may not be part of Derek's question is that in Gutenberg right now there are immediate queries for certain blocks like media and text columns because I've been talking about this yeah I was actually talking about those some other contributors like they do exist so what if your breakpoints for mobile is you want it to be 500 and set a 600 or whatever. Overwriting that with CSS right now is really the only option. I think it'd be great if you if there if there are breakpoints. Ideally those will go away but if they have to be there there'd be some way of setting them and team that Jason or something for the blocks that currently happen. Yeah. Yeah definitely agree. The navigation blocks one that I just want to override all of it and like I just want some filters or some configurations to do that. Yeah but those conversations are happening and there are tickets. There's a lot of tickets where they're happening and I mean constant feedback in those or continued feedback not constant but is definitely something that we should all be doing like share our like specific use cases like here's what we need to do and we can't do it right now like we need to come up with the solutions together. All right so Lisa says she has some unexpected responsive behavior of a roadblock plus images than a change of columns and seen it work smoother. That's not the answer for all situations for great world. Yeah I don't know are columns block on are they a flexbox control now or is there or I know the roadblock is I don't know kind of thinking of asking Nick a little bit because he might know putting me on the spot here. Yeah I was like I was looking at you on my screen though even though you don't know I'm looking at you I was like Nick answer this I don't I don't know but yeah yeah sometimes you just have to change the blocks. Row and columns are similar in some ways and yeah they have some differences too yeah it just depends on the use case but yeah we'll jump on to Victor has something else on the npm problem with Glot Dev tutorial I ran into a problem when I used the local shell so PHP shell for WPCOI make sure make sure you use a regular system terminal for running npm with full access to node environment that's a lot of big words to say all out okay. I'm sorry in two seconds I'm referring to the question that Derek was asking when I was doing the same course I you know I had a local instance running and I used you know I had to open a shell that I had you know you know how local let's you open a local shell right now that was could not run the npm install well due to the fact that it has its own custom little environment right um so when I got it going was when I just opened a regular shell it's a change directory to where the the block plugin directory development was then npm install ran fine because he could find the version of npm I was actually running on my machine but if when I was using the look now I'm just mentioning it because it might be a problem for a lot of people because everybody seems to be using local right just to whip up a WordPress so you then you're trying to do some block development and the the local shell does not look like it's uh I don't use for that that that was my comment okay thanks yeah am I the only one who doesn't use local or I don't know I'm like I'm still old school like Zamp half the time so uh just uh like my simple ways of doing things it's a good call out though because even though local is a third-party entity so many people use it now if you go through like the documentation I'm like setting up an environment there's like one little snippet on local and then there's a lot on docker and like WP ENV so like it may make sense to have a more robust section on local given how many people use it so yeah yeah uh yeah I'm looking at in the chat too for people who are unfamiliar with it oh vvv wow that's I don't I don't think it works on m1 max anymore or m2 max now maybe maybe they just updated that because yeah vvv that was the that was my jam back in the day used to do that all the time it's great all right yeah we still plug in that victor's mentioning I love vaguely recall hearing about it I don't know a victor do you want to do you mind chiming in about what the atlas plugin is sure um one of the things that attracts me to wordpress is that I can use it for projects that are like you know my wife's poetry site on the one hand and then when I have a web app that's you know big I can think in terms of doing headless wordpress right so local allows you to to you got you can put in the plug in the atlas plugin by WPN share and that allows you to have on the one hand you know just to play around with it you don't what it gives you is a headless wordpress instance and a front end Faust js instance the Faust is just a way of very easily using consuming the wp graphql plugin you know so you can get your data from wordpress very easily and you can get going um they don't intend to monopolize they say you know you can use any framework you want in fact there's a video where you can use astro you can use you know next whatever you want the point is that it's not so easy for example I have my wordpro on digital ocean in a droplet you know working and I you know I can I can whip up wordpress instance and then I got a whip up a reverse engine x yeah you know with local you can just press a button and you've got a whole headless back end and front end you can start working with and playing around with so you know it's it's a very exciting thing um I don't necessarily want to get um uh caught up with just one approach to to headless but um what's very exciting about wordpress is that you can actually think of it in many different ways I can write my own react blocks and just use a web app in wordpress and I can also say okay for this project it's going to make it a headless uh you know server a CMS and and I'm going to make my own front end as well you know so you know that's that's what's very attractive to me about this okay so and that's just like I don't know if anyone is interested in that yeah I actually remember what it is now now that we have the link and you you started talking about it uh it's like it's one of those things I I like completely escaped my mind when it was mentioned in the chat uh yeah really neat uh project there but yeah we have like you know what three or four minutes uh left I think so like any yeah so we're going to get all the big questions out of the way before time's up Lisa yeah go ahead sorry go ahead yeah Lisa asks is this conversation of recurring weekly events or an occasional thing uh it's more of a monthly right now uh yeah somebody I know we have a link on the uh do we put on the wordpress core or make govvog there's one happening next month I believe uh right now we have the we had one uh earlier this month this one and then there's one that's going to be more in the for the like Asia-Pacific region like in terms of like time zone uh Michael or is it Ryan which and one of you two is co-hosting that I'm doing it with Jonathan Bossinger okay yeah yeah we scheduled three originally we had one earlier this month which was for the immediate time zones um then there's this one for the America's time zones and uh at the this time next month the 27th of March which is for Asia-Pacific time zones I just dropped the link into the chat yeah you're being me too and um yeah and then so there's this initial three and then we'll look at scheduling some more we'll probably schedule another group and there will probably be some these initial three were scheduled for primarily for plugin developers interested in migrating existing sort of shortcode or widget plugin to blocks um but there will also be some coming up for theme developers as well yeah and even though I think we had that specific topic I don't think either of the first two meetings have been like strictly about how about that uh I don't know how much yeah so like more on topic in the last one but just straight a bit but that's fine yeah I mean it's okay to ask not you know off topic questions I mean it's great to have those conversations um yeah so uh yeah I'm gonna just give everybody uh you know a last quick chance to uh you know ask any final questions or any or share any final thoughts before we wrap this up one thing I do just want to say is as we're gonna wrap up shortly there's lots of really useful links in the chat so this is your opportunity to save the chat yeah yeah is there a quick way to download it I know there is a google yeah if you go to the toolbar at the bottom of the chat there's a three three dots link and you can save the chat there and so you can keep all those useful links for future reference okay that's good to know all right uh there's nothing else uh I enjoyed like having all of you here today um some great topics uh and I got I got plenty of links I'm really interested in reading the uh we have one in the chat that we're not in Kansas anymore or something our WordPress is not so I'm I just like the title so I'm definitely going to read that uh whoever shared and uh but yeah so y'all have a you know good rest of your day uh morning and evening afternoon wherever you're at and uh hopefully uh hopefully y'all share show up for the next one and yeah so thanks thanks guys thanks everyone thanks go ahead and have a great day bye thanks