 Here us over here. Good morning. I'm Sue Racknelli, President of the League of Women Voters of Vermont. I want to welcome you to what is non-citizen voting, a presentation that has been brought to you by the League of Women Voters and our partners Central Vermont Refugee Action Committee and First Unitarian Universalist Society of Montpelier Racial Justice Team, our host Kellogg Hubbard Library and Orca Media. The League of Women Voters is a non-partisan organization. Our mission is to empower voters and defend democracy. The right of non-citizens to vote in the United States has historically been a contentious one. Our purpose in hosting this program is for you to get an understanding of the history and facts about non-citizen voting. The League does not have a position on non-citizen voting, but in keeping with our mission, we advocate for voting rights and provide voter information. The League has a committee that has been studying non-citizen voting. Our speaker, Marguerite Edelman, chairs this committee, and she has been monitoring non-citizen voting across the country for the past two years. Joining her today is John Odom, Montpelier's city clerk, who will let you know what is happening in Montpelier, one of two Vermont cities that allow non-citizen residents to vote in local elections. Let's hear from both Marguerite and John, and please hold your questions till the end of the presentation. Thank you. I should begin by saying that I am not a lawyer, and I am not a scholar. But as Sue pointed out, for the past two years, I have been getting every alert that I possibly can on non-citizen voting and getting as much information as I can on the topic, and reading articles and books, etc. I am a Winooski resident, and I think that's probably one of the reasons I got so interested in the topic was watching the process play out in my own hometown and seeing how people reacted and what was happening there. So today what I hope to do is kind of give you a broad general overview of where we are right now, give you specific details about Winooski and Montpelier, I'll supply Winooski, John will supply Montpelier, and then talk about the pros and cons that are being voiced nationally around the whole issue of non-citizen voting. At the end, I hope we can open it for a good civil discussion on the topic and find out where people stand and what their viewpoints are, etc. So I want to begin a little bit with the history. And as you all probably know, in American history voting initially was given to white male property owners. Race, gender, and class, not citizenship were really what mattered in voting and who got to vote. And it's interesting to note that prior to 1926, 40 states at some point in time allowed non-citizens to vote in some or even all elections. However, federal law definitely prohibits non-citizens from voting in federal elections only. So that is very clear in the law at this point in time. Now I want to go from federal law to state constitutions. In state constitutions, no state constitution currently allows non-citizens to vote. It doesn't ever say non-citizens are allowed to vote. However, some recent updates for you, Rhode Island and Connecticut, have two House of Representatives members who have proposed bills that would allow non-citizens to vote in municipal elections. Connecticut in fact would allow illegal, that's probably the worst term, but non-U.S. citizens who are not here legally to vote as well. And the reason the legislator said that was that he really wanted to start a conversation around the whole issue of voting in this country and the complexities of voting. He admits readily he doesn't expect it to pass. In Illinois, the Senate has already passed a bill that would allow parents of school-aged children to vote in school board elections. So whether that ends up becoming a law in Illinois will be something that we can watch. It's not actually necessarily a constitutional change, but it allows parents who are non-citizens to have a voice in their children's education. There are state constitutions that actually ban non-citizen voting. And it's interesting when we look at those seven states, five of those states were in the last three to four years. Louisiana, Ohio, Colorado, Florida, and Alabama are all within the last three to four years for banning it. When the topic became so controversial, voting became so controversial, and there were all the rumors about how many non-citizens had voted individuals who were here illegally. Two of the states, Arizona and North Dakota, have had legislation already in their constitution that basically banned non-citizen voting. And right now, even more states are actually considering adding ban. Oh, wrong one. But there are many states without roadblocks to non-citizen voting, and in general, municipalities can expand voting rights in local elections if there are no explicit constitutional legislative impediments, and as long as the local jurisdictions have the power of home rule. This gets pretty complicated. So some states that require changes to local charters need to get approval from state legislators, legislators, and those are Vermont and Montpelier had to as well. And so it's quite a process. It's a lengthy process. No community undertakes this process lightly because it takes quite a bit of time and work. So let's look at the states that have what I would call smooth sailing. Okay, there are 12 states that pose no impediments in the Arkansas, Illinois, Maryland, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Washington, and Wisconsin. We may soon be able to have to cross Oklahoma off. Oklahoma just recently is looking at passing a law that would purge voter registration laws that contain illegal immigrants or non-citizens and prosecute them. So that is something that's being proposed right now. It just came out in the news a couple of days ago. So the states with roadblocks to non-citizen voting are those seven that we talked about before, as well as some others. So we have Alaska, California in that list, D.C., Florida, Ohio, North Dakota are all in that list. So where is non-citizen voting being considered? Well, actually in many places across the country. You'll see two places in Massachusetts, Boston, and we're, I can never say that, Worcester? Worcester. Worcester, okay, in Massachusetts. So they are being considered there. Interestingly enough, there are other cities in Massachusetts, Amherst and Cambridge, that have already passed non-citizen voting. But the legislature has just let it sit there and done nothing with it. So they're a state where they need the legislative approval for it to become an actuality. Chicago is considering it, Portland, Maine, San Jose, California, Syracuse, New York, and Washington, D.C., which is actually already passed through its own channels, non-citizen voting for those in Washington. And that's become a very hot topic. In other words, you know, there's people screaming, oh, you're going to allow all those Chinese diplomats to vote in Washington, D.C. So those are some of the things that you're hearing, some of the issues that are coming up, and there actually was passed by Congress, the House, a bill trying to undo non-citizen voting in Washington, D.C., because it has to go through the federal government to get non-citizen voting. But there are still a number of U.S. cities with non-citizen voting. 11 cities in Maryland. And interestingly enough, Barnsville granted that right in 1918, Somerset in 1976, Tacoma Park since 1993. So when you consider the history of those three cities, so for such a long time, there was actually no controversy until the last three or four years. It's become so controversial. Two cities in Vermont, which you know, and a third, Burlington, will have on its town meeting day ballot this year a question about what they are calling all legal resident voting. And I will just tell you that the terminology for this, I use non-citizen because I think it's a little clear, but the terminology varies across the country. It could be called so many different things, and we'll talk a little bit about that. San Francisco and Oakland both allow parents to vote in school board elections, but that has been contested. Fortunately, it hasn't been stopped yet, but it is still under appeal. And New York City is also under appeal. So there's challenges to this across the country that are being looked at. So non-citizen voting and running for office. This is interesting because in some places, non-citizens can only vote in school elections or they can only vote in city elections or they can vote in both. And in some cities, non-citizens can run for the local city and or school board positions. And once again, that varies. We'll talk a little bit about the differences between Winooski and Montpelier as we get into that. So how do cities, and I'm going to use that as an example, come to the conclusion that they even want to consider non-citizen voting? And I think what they end up doing is kind of what I ended up doing, which is looking at the immigration data for your communities and studying that. And what I found from the various sources that I've looked at 4.4% of residents are immigrants and 2% of immigrants are non-citizens. So here in Vermont, that's approximately 12,000 people. The top countries of origin truly surprised me, but not when I think about it. Canada is 20%. Nepal, 7%, Jamaica, 6%, Philippines 6%, and Bosnia and Herzegovina 5%. This also surprised me a bit in terms of what I think of as stereotypes. And that is that more than 9 in 10, 92% of immigrants reported that they spoke English very well. And 50% of those immigrants had a college degree or more. Only 12% had less than a high school diploma. Vermont in general only has, this was in 2020, 20 DACA recipients. It could be more, it could be less right now, but probably not a significant difference. So I'm going to turn it over to John now. And he can talk about the process of non-citizen voting in Montpelier. And then I'll talk about Winooski. Do you want the clicker? I'm not sure what this clicks. You don't have to point it. Literally, what am I clicking up there? I don't know what to click, so I won't click. Hi, yeah, I'm John Odom. I'm the city clerk here. And if I can take a moment of personal privilege, I love telling the story of how this started here. Because what happened in Montpelier sort of lit the flame for this entire wave that went through Winooski. So about every year, or every year, I would have somebody, not always the same person, but somebody come up to me and say, there's always their spouse. Why can't my spouse vote? My spouse is not a citizen. And my answer was always, I don't know what to tell you. They can't vote. They're not a citizen. I'm really sorry. Well, a few years ago, I was taking a course through the University of Minnesota to get an election administrator certificate. And that year, it was right after town meeting. I had the same person come in as the previous year saying, why can't my spouse vote? And I said, I'm sorry, you can't. Well, about two weeks later in the course, we had a module about non-citizen voting in the U.S. And I was, oh, okay. So I had to pick up the phone and call her back and say, I was wrong. Apparently, this is something that is done. So let's make it happen. So we started the process of doing that. I set up a couple public meetings. And very shortly thereafter, I get contacted by a Winooski city counselor who wanted me to go and speak before their city council about the issue. So I did. And it was an interesting conversation. But anyway, I feel like, I mean, this is going to happen eventually because it has become a hot issue. And that's the way Vermonters are. We want to do the right thing. But at that particular moment, if I hadn't been taking that one class, so when we did have the public meetings, I actually skyped in back when it was skyping my professor to talk to the groups in Montpelier too. But no, that was great. But in Montpelier, yeah, we just do it at the municipal level. And that's because things get more complicated for us given that there's a union school district. Now I know Winooski includes the school district. That would have been great. I had folks from the school talk to me about the possibility of this. And honestly, looking at the law, I'm not entirely sure that there would need to be a charter change for school districts to do this. And I think that's worth checking out. They might be able to do that independently. But I can't say that for sure. Yeah, so now we have, just for municipalities, or just for the municipality, it passed by a very large margin. I heard almost no grumbling from folks in the town when it happened. There was, when the folks who were against it, there was sort of, from those folks, a sort of collective shrug. But you know, it's good folks. So what that means is I have to design two ballots, which Winooski doesn't have to do. Because our ballot, traditionally, we share a ballot space with our school. And with, more recently, with a sort of quasi-municipal entity called the Central Vermont Public Safety Authority. So those were things that non-citizens were not empowered to vote on. So I have a whole bunch of ballots now, you know, for town meeting. I've got a ballot for each district, and then I've got another ballot for each district that's the non-citizens. And we've got a mere 11 non-citizens registered. They're generally all Canadian or European. We have finally started getting a couple people of color in there, which is great. This is a pretty white town, so it, you know, we, this is a good way. I'm hoping to actually, you know, increase involvement and, you know, have folks who are people of color feel more like they own the town as much as the, you know, the folks, you know, who are all monochrome out there. I know that can be intimidating. So anyways, I have just started trying to get the word out just this year. I know Winooski has spent a lot of time getting the word out. And I went into this thinking, I wanted to treat all voters the same. You know, that was the big pitch at the legislature. You know, I organized a lot of the lobbying that went on for this. And that was a big thing the legislature wanted. You know, we weren't going to check ID at the polls, just like we don't for other folks. We're going to treat folks just like every other voter. And maybe I took that a little too far. So I took, you know, made no action to reach out to people. I'm like, here's another voter. But I started coming around to that because I've seen the good work that Winooski has done to do that. But, you know, we do that. We have, we've had ballots in different languages. And that's, you know, that's how it's gone for us. I don't know if there's any questions or... Did the city council have to vote for this and then for that to the legislature? How did that work? Well, it was a charter change. And again, because we're a Dylan's rule state. Which means essentially the towns are administrative districts of the state, really. Which is how we got around the, you know, the prohibition in the state constitution for non-citizen voting. So the charter change process is either the city council can vote to approve it, or it can be done by petition. City council would have been ready to approve it. But I had talked to the citizen contact I made and I talked to them and I said, you know, this could be really controversial. I think you should get a public wave going. I think, I don't think it'll be a big problem. And, you know, I can help to the extent I can, which is limited. But I think it would be powerful and meaningful. So it wouldn't, people just wouldn't be pointing fingers at that crazy city council to see, look, the community wants this. So it was not hard to get those, those signatures. And then that's what put it on the ballot. All right. Thanks. I'll talk a little bit about musky. There are a few slides from Montelia here, which is what John has already talked about. The supplemental voter registry. If you're interested in what the actual vote was. Currently, I only had not the number nine, but you're at 11. So I'm going to up that number. Non-citizens registered to vote here. And in the first meeting day, I think you had five vote. So, you know, we're not talking huge numbers, but it did pass by 65.7%. So if we go on to musky, which got excited because Montelia had already looked at this topic, and they called it our resident voting. In Montelia, it's called non-U.S. citizen voting, correct? So there's an example of two different terms, which could be confusing to people. But, you know, all resident voting was meant to be more inclusive and less discriminatory in the sense that nobody really wants to be a non-citizen, but non-citizen is actually the legal term that you find in most of the legal documents. So in Winoosky, one of the reasons was that it's really diverse. You know, we're a refugee resettlement community, and our school district in Winoosky, over 20 languages are spoken. And Winoosky is a community that really prides itself on its diversity and its inclusion. You know, some of the facts about Winoosky is, you know, we don't have a huge population, 6,131. Our native U.S. citizens are 5,041. Naturalized citizens, 472, and not a U.S. citizen, 618. The actual data around household income and poverty just adds to the picture of who Winoosky is and why Winoosky residents might have been interested in passing non-citizen voting. And as John mentioned, the process can go two ways. It can come through the City Council or it can come from a petition by citizens. I believe that in Winoosky they tried it initially via a, I think it was a petition, and it didn't go anywhere. But as soon as Montpelier had moved forward, the City Council decided to move forward. And so the process they used was to create a charter commission and get public input. Then the Council put it on the ballot and then they got more public input. Then they had the vote at Tom meeting day. And then it had to go to the House and the Senate for approval. And then from there to the Governor for his approval. And then we could have all resident voting. So all resident voting in Winoosky is very similar to Montpelier. We chose that they had to be a federally sanctioned legal category resident here. They had to have a cream card or a permanent resident visa. They had to be 18 years or older, which is just state law, on or by election day. I thought this was interesting. So they had to reside in Winoosky with the intent to stay. I've never been clear what intent to stay means, but I think, or how you prove it. But it was originally listed on the information that was sent out. So qualified residents can vote in all local elections and run for local offices. They can also vote in the water district, the sewer district, the solid waste management district, et cetera, if they're included in that. The city maintains two different lists. As John said, he has to have more ballots than we have to have in Winoosky. So what were the politics in Winoosky? The Winoosky charter vote was in 11, 20, 20, and it passed with 71% of the residents voting in favor of it. The charter changes were approved by the Brown House and the Senate, and the Governor vetoed those charter changes saying it was unfair to have different voting rules in different communities. However, the House and the Senate overcame the Governor's veto, and so it passed into law. And like Montpelier, the GOP filed lawsuits against the city. And the clerks individually against the individuals in those offices, and they were dismissed. And more recently, the Vermont Supreme Court has ruled that non-citizen, all resident, non-U.S. citizen voting is not in violation of Vermont's constitution. So, in a sense, the road is now clear. You know, when you have the Supreme Court, you know, on your side, it's much more, it's much easier, I think, for other communities to consider going forward. But as I said, it's a lengthy process, and that's something to consider. So educating non-citizen voters, as John pointed out, Winoosky has done a lot. You know, they had a diversity and inclusion coordinator who was reaching out to the community. Materials were translated into numerous languages. They held community presentations with translators from various communities to sit and help individuals understand, because it is a bit complicated to figure out, oh, I can vote now. Well, I get in trouble, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they made educational videos, and they did outreach to immigrant associations. So during the first time that all resident voting took place, we had 17 non-citizens who voted. The total number of registered voters was 5,218, but on that day, 938 voted. Which to me says we need to do something about getting citizens to vote, frankly. And the total number of non-citizens registered to vote to date in Winoosky is 56. So we're going to go over together, John and I. We're just going to read these, because I think this will form a great discussion. The arguments against and for non-citizen voting. And I collected these from multiple sources. You know, we had a Boulder, Colorado League that did a lot of work on non-citizen voting. And we took a lot of their materials and their studies and looked at those. So these are some of the arguments that you hear. Non-citizens will have to self-identify, which could put them at risk for immigration action. I'm trying to take the next one. The county clerk becomes a keeper of immigration info, which could make it difficult if the federal government were to ask for the info and that resulted in deportations. Argument? Citizenship is a privilege. And this is actually a main argument. This is like the argument that you hear. Citizenship is a privilege and it comes with the opportunities of voting, which shouldn't be given to non-citizens. Voting is a right for citizens and many non-citizens eligible for citizenship are motivated to apply for citizenship in order to vote. Issues faced by non-citizens are different from those of citizens and are more appropriately addressed by citizens. If you have questions about that, I'll explain that one later. Non-citizen voting might encourage those who are here illegally to register as a legal non-citizen resident and vote. Non-citizen residents who may not speak English or be able to read could have their votes easily manipulated by others. A large number of non-citizen residents voting could change the outcome of an election. Non-citizens may move to communities that allow non-citizen voting, changing the culture and the nature of that community. Procedures for non-citizen voting cost the community money including lawsuits, translations, interpreters, processing separate voter registration forms, reconfiguring web pages and more. So then we'll briefly present the arguments for non-citizen voting. Non-citizens own property, pay taxes, contribute to our local economy and should have a voice in local government. Basically this is no taxation without representation. Non-citizens are affected by policies and actions of municipal and county governments the same as citizens. Non-citizen schoolchildren are affected by policies and actions of the school district. The citizenship process is costly, takes many years and has an application backlog of over 15 months. And we can talk more about that if you guys have questions about it. Our local economies depend on immigrant and refugee labor and workers should have a say regardless of citizenship. Non-citizen participation benefits all community members. Non-citizen voting was common at the local, state and even federal levels in the U.S.'s first 150 years. In some counties residency non-citizenship is seen as the measure of being a legitimate stakeholder in the community. Voting rights are part of the social contract. A just government rests on the consent of the governed. The vote helps guard against discrimination and bias, often the consequence of political exclusion. The majority of Vermont's immigrants are educated and speak English. Voting participation is correlated to the voting rate of one's parents. Since obtaining citizenship takes many years the sooner parents are allowed to vote the more likely their children will later become voting adults. I've listened to a number of debates and there are more and more that are out there on YouTube and in other places. And these are questions that I still have like where do you draw the line on some of these things? And so I'll just share them with you. Pregnant foreigners, I don't know they were serious articles about pregnant women from Russia coming to Florida and staying in hotels and condos three months before their due date. So they traveled to the U.S. on a visa and they have their baby here and then the child is granted U.S. citizenship by what our law calls birthright. Is this really fair? Legal non-residents are, I didn't know this, legal non-residents are subject to selective service. So if we had a war and we reinstated the draft they could be drafted. Why can't they vote if they can give their life for the country they reside or live in? A non-citizen can serve in the U.S. military but U.S. citizenship is not guaranteed to them for doing so. Should this be so? Many states don't have meaningful residency requirements for citizens to vote. This is something else I just learned. 23 states have no residency requirements. None. And most others have around 30 days. And the last one, the U.S. allows citizens to hold multiple passports as do many other countries. Should they be allowed to vote if they are residing in another country? And my daughter is an example of that. She's a Canadian citizen and she has both a Canadian and a U.S. passport. And I'm not sure but I think she might have voted in both Canadian elections and U.S. elections. So that's an interesting question. Here's a couple more that I didn't have time to put up there. But we actually take away the voting rights of some U.S. citizens. Not here in Vermont but felons in many states and people in prisons are not allowed to vote. We take away their voting rights. And we take away the voting rights in some states of people who haven't voted in five or ten years. So if they're on the voter registration list, we just purge their name. And when we do the census, undocumented individuals who are actually held in detention centers are counted in the census towards the money that we distribute and the number of legislators and all sorts of formulas that we distribute that determines so much of our government. We actually do count them. So these are just additional questions to think about in terms of the complexity of non-citizen voting. And as Sue said in the beginning, we're really willing to work with communities that are interested in learning more that want to register voters, either citizens or non-citizens, which is something that we do on a regular basis. And we have some information on the table. I put together a resource sheet with websites and other information on this topic. If you find it interesting, if there's more information you want on it. So I would open it up for discussion and questions now because I think it's interesting. Yeah, one thing I think that's worth mentioning is Vermont as far as reasons against human rights. I heard this in the legislature and I thought it was very odd. I heard it a few times, but I heard it again as recently as just this last week. My response probably was not to even temper because I was sort of feeling bad that day. But the equating it with this idea that business owners should be able to vote, or landowners rather, should be able to vote in towns where they own land, which is... I heard it too. I mean, you think about it, they have nothing in common. We talk about non-citizen voting and non-resident voting is what they're basically talking about, which is a whole different ballgame. How it was getting put together in the same argument, I'm not sure. But it has been very consistently. I think the response is that that has absolutely nothing to do with it. And it really doesn't. The only thing they have in common is they have something to do with voting. But, see, we heard that a lot. I heard that again as I said last week from a gentleman who owns property in town and does not live in town. And he asked me and I said, well, no, you can't vote in two towns, right? He's where you live. And he's broke back with a non-citizen scan. And I say, I was tired, I was feeling sick, so I wrote back, I'm sorry, did the citizens of Montpelier hurt your feelings? And I didn't hear anything back after that. But anyway, that's a big one here. I have a question. Can you address the reasoning against it because it costs more for translations and materials and things like that? Is that a big cost? It costs more for the ballots. And that's not a big cost. I mean, obviously it costs would scale up in a larger town. I find that an irrelevant question. I mean, the question is, should people have the right to vote in their communities? And I mean, one of the ways I would describe it is, you know, you're not... This isn't something that goes up, right? You can vote in your municipality. That doesn't mean they have some sort of right to vote in the state where the state constitution says no. And I always say, look, I'm a U.S. citizen. I can vote in my town. I can vote, you know, state, federal. I can't vote in Idaho, right, just by virtue of being a citizen. So we do mix and match these jurisdictions up all the time. So the Canadian example, I would just say, well, where do you live? You know? And if you're a Canadian citizen, you get to vote in Canada, good for you. But where do you live? What community you're a part of? And yeah, Vermont's only criteria for residency is that it's where you lay your head down. You know? There's no 30-day requirement that you be here. It's just where do you live? So if you have a property owner in Montpelier, but they are a legal resident of, say, Florida, are they allowed to vote in Montpelier? They don't live in Montpelier. They don't live in the community in Montpelier. Even though they spend five months here? It depends. You can only register in one town. Okay, so you're registering in one place. Right. Okay. Right. So that's, I mean, that's the key there. You don't get two bites at the end. I would just, I want to go back and say that in terms, there's no law that says how much you have to spend on translation of materials on how much outreach you do. You know, there's nothing on that. Like John said, he chose here in Montpelier to treat the non-U.S. citizen voters as any person who's voting. And I think Winooski spent more because part of its kind of mission and goal and perspective deals with the fact that so much of the community is an immigrant population or asylum seekers and all of that. And so for them, I think they saw it as much more important. I've been curious who pays for the lawsuits. I've always wanted to ask that. Oh, well, the lawsuits came from the RNC, the Republican National Committee and the Vermont Republic. Right. But who paid for your defense? Oh, you have a city attorney. So was the city attorney. So it's already built in expense or does it end up being extra? I mean, we put aside a certain amount for projected legal costs. Okay. Sometimes it's on the money and sometimes it's not. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, sure. Paying con. I got my citizenship last year. And since December, I'm a Montpelier city councilor for district two and run me again for the two year term. And I really appreciate your efforts on this issue. And from personal level, it is really important to include people and create the feeling of loans. As you said, I work, I pay tax, you know, and I want to be part of the community. This is very important. So for Montpelier, my question will be, John, you said like nine people registered. Eleven. Eleven. Great. So what is the total number of non-citizens here? So I'm trying to understand where we are at now. Oh, in the town? Yeah. Oh boy. I would not even know how to find that number out. That's a tough question. Yeah. Because this is very good like action plan, public education. How many people we are trying to reach out? So if you don't know how we can plan our next steps and as a city councilor, how we can help, right? To make it like a more community thing. I was expecting more folks. Why can't we know the number of non-citizens? It's like a private thing. That's the Census Bureau might have information on that. The American Home Survey. And that's where I got some of my data about Winooski. So the American Home Survey actually looks at that. What's harder to figure out is if they're of voting age. So you might find the number who are non-citizens, but sometimes you can't tell the exact age. How we can create a plan, right? So it is like, okay, we are just sending everything to the universe. Yeah, at this point. And in some communities like in San Francisco, for example, there's a whole parent, a non-citizen parent group, that works extremely hard to educate other non-citizens who are involved in the schools and how to vote. So sometimes it's taken leadership by some of the immigrant associations or some of the groups in that community who really want to see their non-citizens vote. I mean, it was very controversial what was happening in the school boards out in California. And so there were a huge number of non-citizens voting in that. I thought there was one reference on one of the slides to... You have to be... you have to have federal status in order to become a non-citizen voter in Vermont. I don't know if that was really true that I read it accurately, but C.D. Rand, one of the organizations involved in this, as you probably know, they sponsor many, many families from Russia, Africa, South America, Tunisia, all over. And the numbers are in Afghanistan, Ukraine, I think even. So the numbers are going up. But none of those people, I think, have green cards. And I thought I saw that on the list, that you have to have a federal status. As asylum seekers can, I believe, have a federal status from what I understand. It can take certain groups a lot longer. Like with a green card, you can't apply for citizenship until five years have passed. And then it could take... Maybe you could tell us your history here. Then it can take considerably longer because, you know, you have... There's a cost for it. It's like $900 approximately. You have to take two different tests. You have to take an English test and a civics test. You know, you have to stay in the United States for up to six months before you can actually get your citizenship after you've applied. And there's no guarantee that you'll get citizenship so you can lose that money. It's a complicated, long process. But somebody at the... I think it was the Fletcher Library presentation talked about asylum seekers and others who might take considerably longer to get citizenship. So, you know, if they're not specific... If they're here in a legal status, and I think asylum seekers are, I mean, if they have that status, they may be... they probably are able to vote. Ours is definitely raised broadly. If they're here under any legal status whatsoever, you know, they're welcome to register and vote. The only reason... I mean, that's as far as we took the conversation. Folks who were here not under the law as such, that discussion came up, but we decided at least for this point, let's just go the easier route, the one that we think less controversial for folks and then maybe we're trying to get the conversation later. And if for no other reason it takes away all those concerns about deportation. Exactly. You know, the checklist can be used to identify folks. I mean, if they're already here, if the government already knows they're here, if the government's okay with it, then there's nothing to find out. And that's a good point. Vermont has gone legal resident route. You have to be here legally. And that's an important distinction because you don't need to worry about those public voter lists getting out and someone tracking you down, which is what Oklahoma is talking about doing, and then prosecuting those individuals if they're on the voter registration list. So, you know, we've chosen legal, but as I said in Connecticut, there's a legislator who wants to make it legal and non-legal residents. I'm a citizen of the USA. I came here 35 years ago. I was a resident of Columbia and I've lived in Vermont for 35 years. We came originally up on the like-of-the-intern-age one-or-age-two visa and then worked towards a green card, like to say, after waiting five years, and then on to get legal citizenship. I am so pleased that we're doing I don't like calling it non-citizen because I think that's a negative connotation. I feel as though it ought to be legal citizen voting. Because I cannot believe that this country who is so against taxation without representation, I was paying taxes for 10 years and was not allowed that representation, which I think is outrageous. But I do believe that voting is a privilege and it should not be just handed out and I think you really need to be a legal resident. And what my concern is making immigrants and illegal residents legal and making it easier and quicker. You know, one thing you mentioned, the term non-citizen, that we use, there's one way that I don't like it in particular and that's that I think the communities are saying that these folks are six of the community. And I think that's the community deciding who they're going to consider members of their community and that's citizenship. So, you know. Well, citizenship is sort of a federal official label so it's hard to get away from it. But in the sort of context or just a term, not legal is specific. Well, it could be community voting then. Yeah, but I think, you know... I think people sort of, wow, non-citizen, oh my goodness, you know, I had that conversation with a local resident, they couldn't believe that I supported it. And then when I explained, they understood. Well, and that's why I think the education is so important because, and the terminology, because we've heard so much about illegal individuals voting over the past four or five years and so when these proposals come up from communities for non-citizen voting, people immediately assume we're talking about illegal individuals or individuals who aren't here legally. And I would say, predominantly, there isn't a city right now anywhere in the U.S. that is considering that. I talked about the legislative laws in Rhode Island in Connecticut that are being proposed, but in neither case do they expect them to pass. So that's really quite interesting. And we should consider if you study voting around the world, it's very different. In Australia, you get fined if you're a citizen and you don't vote. In other words, it's considered your responsibility. And when I look at how few people voted in Winooski, I find that shocking that citizens here don't vote. And it really makes me believe we need to do more civics education. We need to remind people of what sustains a democracy and what a democracy is all about in terms of responsibilities. Montpelier can use different vocabulary instead of non-citizen, like Winooski is doing, like, all residents? All residents might open the question of, again, folks who are not here under legal status. Is it too much of a mouthful to say all legal residents? That's what Burlington said. They're using all legal resident voting. Like something positive. Right. So that's the distinction they're making in terminology. Other questions? One thing I want to mention is, you know, the pushback and controversy. I want to make sure I put it in context here. It's not so bad in Vermont. When we got this passed, I heard from two people in Montpelier, well, except for the two who sued me under the lawsuit. Let's forget them. I mean, one of them was the one I just heard from last week. Other than that, the only folks in Vermont I heard from was one person called me from Rutland who didn't like it. Other than that, the only folks I heard from were from out of state. And it wasn't even 10A. So, you know, I think there's just more respect for the process here. You know, this is what citizens of the community, how they want to run their own fairs. You have fewer people that have become crashing down on their heads over at the state. And I like to think about the evolution of voting, too. I mean, our organization, the League, celebrated the centennial of women's suffrage in 2020. And then when you look at the history of women's suffrage, you realize it wasn't just women who weren't allowed to vote, it was Native Americans who were the original citizens of this country. So, we were evolving. And hopefully becoming more consistent and more inclusive and more civic-minded and engaged. And that's kind of what I like to think about in terms of our history, that we can always improve and do better and make things easier. How far along is Burlington? They vote on Town Meeting Day this March. It's very interesting. I don't think this time it's going to be controversial. It's been turned down the last two times. I could be wrong. I'm just making a prediction here. They seem more concerned right now about policing and housing. Those are the two really hot topics in Burlington. And we did the same presentation there and we didn't have as many people. So, I was shocked because I thought we would, in Burlington, given that. But we're fortunate that we have Orca and in Burlington, we had Town Meeting TV, and that public access will have this presentation on the air for people to listen to and to understand the complexity and the pros and cons of the topic and to take a deeper look into themselves on where they stand on the issue. Well, in one thing I want to mention, and I don't want to fake on you, but the idea of voting is privilege. That is not something that I agree with. I think voting is right. Privilege is something that we would be granting, essentially. But if it's a right, we're getting out of there way. I think it comes with living in the community. That's a distinction that I like to make. And it wasn't actually originally used as a privilege. But voting was used as a lure. In Colorado, voting was used as a lure to get people to come and to become part of that new state. They didn't have to be citizens at all. They really just wanted them to come and get involved. Has the pushback been political? Do you see politics entering into it a lot? Yeah, well, in that sense, yeah. I had great bragging rights for me for a while. I like when I'm telling everybody, I'm getting sued by the RNC. I talked a lot about that when I was running for secretary of state. I'm getting sued by the RNC. The pushback has been political. I think the most political it's been in Vermont has been trying to equate it to that non-resident voting. The property owner voting. That's been a political argument. I first heard it in the state house and government operations when we were talking about it. So I think that's the extent of it that I've experienced here. Well, if that's it, I want to thank you all for coming. It's really been a good discussion. And I think hopefully when it's on the air, more people will see it and give some thought to these questions, these issues, and about their own community. It can happen in any community in Vermont at this point. If there's the will and the sense that it's right for that community. Thank you all for coming.