 Muy buenas tardes. Bienvenidas y bienvenidos a esta jornada que lleva por título Transición Justa. Este evento se llama Fair Transition. No hay nadie detrás, organizado por la Fundación Green European, Transición Verde y la Casa Encendida. Soy Cristina Monje, un politologista y experto en transición de políticas y manejar las políticas para la sustentabilidad. Y la primera cosa que quería hacer es que te convierta y agradecer a todas estas organizaciones por organizar este evento. Un evento que sigue la serie de eventos que se organizó un mes pasado que fue la Transición Verde para Europa. Así que creo que este evento es muy necesario, es muy relevante, porque creo que tenemos que ser más específicos sobre lo que deseamos para esta transición. Hemos hablado sobre el hecho de que necesitamos una transición. Hemos dicho que necesitamos ser ambiciosos. Hemos dicho que necesitamos ser mucho más rápido que lo que realmente es. Pero ahora tenemos que ser específicos. Tenemos que ver y decir qué tipo de transición tiene que ser. Así que esto es una cosa muy ideológica, porque puede ser de diferentes modos de transición. Y es por eso que creo que es muy interesante empezar más profundo y hablar de lo que esta transición es. No es solo un slogan, no es solo una moto que parece hermosa. Tiene que tener un contenido muy claro. Nadie debe estar detrás. No es fácil y tenemos que ver cómo hacerlo. Y esto es por eso que el tiempo ha venido para nos enfocarnos en este lado social de las cosas, una cohesión social que tiene mucho que hacer con la forma de la vida y mucho que hacer con el futuro de nuestras sociedades y democracias. Así que para eso que suceda, tenemos tres sabores aquí hoy que son tres de los especialistas más grandes que trabajan en este tema muy específico con respecto a la transición ecológica. Tenemos a Dirk Hollemann aquí con nosotros. Dirk es el presidente de OICOS, el TANK, y él es el copresidente de la Fundación Europea donde él coordina este proyecto de transición. También tenemos a Laura Martín Morillo con nosotros. Ella es el director de la institución para transición, que es parte de la ministra para transición fea. Y Laura ha llegado a la ministra después de un muy largo tiempo como un unionista de trade y trabajando en esta transición fea. Así que ella no es solo un protagonista, si eres el director de esta institución, pero ella también tiene una experiencia longa. Y finalmente, tenemos a Joaquín Míndez, quien es el representante español de la OICOS, el director de la institución para transición. Han tenido algo que viaja con esta transición fea, cuando se empezó la negocia internacional de OICOS en los dos años, y él ahora tiene la responsabilidad de representar el EILO en español. Él ha mucho que decir de transición fea, algo que ha estado funcionando en el previsto. Así que dos cosas con respecto a la logística, el escogimiento. Tenemos una transición simultánea en inglés y español, So you can choose it by clicking on the button that says interpretation. You can see whether you want to choose Spanish or English. And as we usually do in these webinars that we are now getting used to, any person can ask their questions by using the chat box that is under the screen. And we will be reading the questions during the conversation. We have asked our guests to not just do each of what they want to say, but rather we want to create some sort of conversation so that we can dig deeper about the meaning of that very transition. What's the status of that transition and what are the main elements? So that's all right with you. We can start with Dirk Hollande, who is the director of OECOS, the think tank and who is the co-president of the Green European Foundation. Dirk, you have the floor. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here at this conference, although I must confess that now being at home in my attic is less attractive than just being with you in Spain and having with people together at such a conference and then, of course, reading afterwards a good class of Spanish wine. But we will keep that for next year. A kind of just way of organizing things. As already said, I'm coordinating the project on just transition in the Green European Foundation because we think this is a key element of the necessary transition towards social ecological society. And if we just look at current reality, the corona crisis, which is kind, you could say it's kind of mirror that already reflects the current structural problems of our society and makes them worse. So we already had ecological destruction, we had inequality and this corona crisis only makes these things more severe. So there's, you could say, an extra reason on top of the existing for really make sure that this transition, which is necessary, is a just transition. I have prepared a PowerPoint, so I will now try to share my screen. Here we go. Everything goes well. I hope things go well. OK, thank you. So we all know this, but I think it's very important to repeat it every day that it's not only health crisis we are facing, it's a climate crisis. It's a crisis of inequality, a social crisis. It's a crisis of biodiversity. And so it's in the midst of this that we have this difficult task of real, we have to realize the transition fast enough but to make sure nobody is kept behind. And so this is really the real challenge for our society. Y, of course, just transition is part of this goal of system change. And for us, we see just transition as a kind of overarching framework to guidance to this ecological society in just an equitable way. And I think the good news is that last year we have seen only labor unions or climate movements pushing for systemic transformation. While taking into account workers rights and livelihoods, we also see them working together now to give a concrete example. In Belgium, after the first corona crisis, our air company demanded for state support. And it was the first time that the labor unions and the climate movements together developed a position saying we want to protect the incomes of the workers working at the air company, but we also have now, if the state gives support, we need to have ecological criteria. It cannot just be a blank or shake. So I think this is very good. And of course, also the emergence of the yellow vests in France was a clear illustration that just thinking that you can introduce environmental policies without taking into account the social divide is not working. As Macron did first deleting tax for the rich and then introducing a tax on diesel, which really was a kind of making the life of normal people that need their car to drive to the work much harder. That's not a just transition. A just transition would mean you provide work in people's own environment. You establish good public transport. And so Sharon Burrow, who is secretary general of the global workers movement, said it's very clear there are no jobs on a dead plant. And I think this is really a good starting point. And so what we need and that's, I think, how we can embed just transition in a bigger context. We need a transition that would transform the economic and political structures that reproduce and exacerbate inequalities and power asymmetries. And so at its heart will be the creation of employment that promotes labor rights and improves working conditions while also encompassing gender and racial equality, democratic participation and social justice. So it's not only just about new jobs in, let's say, for instance, green economy. It's a much broader and normative stance, which, of course, also includes that we have a kind of definition and discussion about what we understand as prosperity. What do we understand as social well-being? Let's say that the industrial state of the 20th century created a lot of good jobs, but we know at the same time was built on ecological destruction and also on people having to work harder and harder. So it cannot be just a kind of, let's say, trying to build again what was in the past. No, it's about a new kind of prosperity providing a good life for everybody within the planetary boundaries. So trust, I think it's interesting to have some background, this concept of just transition, from where does it come? In the 1970s, workers in the US industry were losing their job because of environmental legislation. So there was a whole battle and debate. And so in 1993, the trade union leader, he said we need a fund, a kind of transition fund, that would provide financial support and opportunities for higher education for workers displaced by environmental protection policies. And so at that time, this was the clear goal. And I can say it's very timely, Princess in Belgium. Today, with the Greens in government, there's a clear decision of closing the nuclear plants. And so the people working there are now asking the question, what kind of job will we have after 25 when the nuclear plants are closed? And I think this is a very legitimate question. We have to answer. In the end of the 1990s, the concept of just transition was incorporated as well in trade unions in North America, as also internationally. And so in the 90s, it really became, let's say the unions, the trade unions movement were able to make this concept of just transition part of the international climate discourse. The concept was considered at the Kyoto Conference and at the COP in Cancun. In the COP 21, with the important climate agreement in Paris, it became an integral element of the international climate policy framework. And it's also part of the sustainable development goals with the concept of decent work. Now, I won't go into this very much, because I'm sure that Joaquin will do that much, much better. But I just want to say and acknowledge that the yellow has played a key role in developing guidelines to make clear what does this mean, this transition towards the green economy for companies and different stakeholders. And, yes, since then, it's a hallmark for just transition policies worldwide. So I will leave this for later, not for me. There's one interesting thing I want to point to is that we can see that there are different definitions of just transition and this goes to what was said by Christina in the introduction. It is a kind of normative debate. What do we mean by just transition? So I think it's relevant. If you look at the perspective of create unions, they focus on the future and the livelihoods of workers and communities. They emphasize the need for social dialogue between workers and the unions, employers and government communities. It's about new jobs, social protection, training opportunities and greater job security. Now, if we compare this with the definition developed by the friends of the earth, we see a much broader definition. There they say just what does just mean. It means the chance of a safe climate for our future generations. It's about the distribution of the remaining global carbon budget between countries and to see how we can distribute the costs in a progressive in an ethical way. So you see this is a much broader definition. I think what is key in implementing just transition is that we need it at all levels. It can be part of discussion at company level, at regional level, at country level and of course also the European Union is very clear example where we have the Green Deal with in the Green Deal, the just transition, the just transition mechanism. And of course, it's also part of the global challenge. If we look what are the necessary elements for a just transition process. Then. It's about an inclusive social and regional dialogue. So it's really important that all groups involved are taking into account can participate in a dialogue. Of course, you need measures to mediate the negative effects on workers. You need support for specific regions and communities, which are the most effective. But it's also about enable individual citizens to live sustainable lives. And also the last, I find very important, the reference to farmers. Most of the times, the most examples, if we talk about just transition, it's about industries. For instance, with the close coal mines and we will build windmills and put solar panels on roofs. But also agriculture has been if you look at agriculture, there also for many decades we have this agro business focused on production, on efficiency and where farmers are locked in a system where they have to lend money to always scale up, produce more, but earn less. And also so in agriculture, we really need a just transition. And just to mention, this is also acknowledged in the multi-annual budget of European Union, where for the first time 10% is earmark for working on biodiversity. At the same time, we see at the European level at the European Parliament that still the old fashioned common agricultural policy was confirmed. So there you see this debate between an old and a new vision economy, including agriculture. So these are already explained. Just transition is now really part of the European policy. And it's important to emphasize. This is really something different. Before, if we look at the Commission Junker, everything to do about transition, about just transition, it was not a core of the debate. It was not the serious game. But we have to acknowledge that now with Van der Lea and van Stimmermans, with the Green Deal, just transition, the aim also to achieve climate neutrality is really at the heart of the European policy. And as I said, ten key elements in this Green Deal, including the just transition. Just to give you a view how white this Green Deal of European Union is, not only about it's not only about energy transition. It's also about the financial sector. It's about mobility sector. It's about a circular economy. It's about farm to fork agriculture. So in all these fields, actually we have to embed the concept of just transition. And of course, the most the thing that really, I say today is the most important is the just transition fund in the Green Deal. And this just transition mechanism is a funding mechanism composed of three pillars and in order to allocate funding for regions in part of carbon neutral Europe. I must say it could be also a bit critical. The overall narrative of the Green Deal is still green growth. So there I would say from my point of view, from the point of view of political ecology, the discussion and the idea is still can have growth based economy. This is important. And of course, how are we going to then develop new concepts instead of a growth economy? I'm almost finishing. So I think what are the challenges? We have to overcome the focus on national allocations. It's very timely. If I say we do, we shouldn't have a debate between countries. It is more than just about energy production. It's the most visible one. The energy producing industries, but we also need systemic change in other sectors. And of course, you have to work together with the private sector and stakeholders. If you ask for case studies, we have Alberta in Canada, where more than 200,000 people work in oil, gas and coal sectors. And since 2015, there is a national plan to accelerate the transition. And in 2018, there was a kind of transition settlement for coal workers with income guarantee, rich education vouchers and a relocation allowance to new jobs. Spain, I won't talk about it because you are the experts. But also, to give another example, also in South Africa, they are working on just transition, but there for the moment it's very difficult and it's not really happening yet. So it's not always an easy story, sometimes it's quite a difficult story. And so I have no conclusion because my conclusion is that I really want to listen how you are doing things in Spain and looking forward to learn from your story and experience. Thank you. Thank you very much. Muchísimas gracias. Y la verdad. Muchísimas gracias. Actually, you left it in the sweet point for Laura to now take the floor. The director of just transition so that she can tell us the case of Spain, a case that is still alive because they're still drafting it because it is being implemented and because this whole process is being accelerated. Y I am going to to remember that phrase that there is no jobs in a dead or sick planet, really. So I think that you actually pointed out what are the key points of this debate. So now we need to land in Spain and Laura will be in charge of piloting this plane to land. So what are the priorities that you have set and what's the status of the situation in our country now? Laura, could you please unmute your mic? OK, so thank you very much, Cristina. Thank you very much to the Green European Foundation, to Transicón Verde and La Casa Entendida for advising me to this debate that makes us think about the changes, changes that need to take place in our economy and in our society that derive from the need of respecting the limits of our planet and that require in-depth changes in the labor work. It's not just the ecologic transition. There are many vectors the way in which we hire people, the structure, the demographic structure, the world is changing in a very rapid way and different trends are taking place in different different axes, different vectors and they need to be governed so that the final results can provide us with a just transition. It is a real pleasure to be here today and it is a real pleasure. To be with Joaquín Mieto. I mean, I would like you all to know that I respect you very much, but Joaquín is the main responsible person for me to be here today. And in a country where, as a Spain, where sometimes we don't really know the international role of Spanish people, Joaquín is not just an amazing director of the ILO. He was a pioneer working with this agenda, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world, but in the Spanish world and the world over. So he is in between those two worlds, the world of the environment and employment. And I think he is one of the first trade unionists, one of the first climate trade unionists, he is one of the first ones who went to a climate summit and started moving this agenda worldwide. So I wanted to recognize this, his role, and it is always a pleasure to be with you. And now as director of the Institute for Just Transition. And as a representative of the government, I would like to say that what we have tried is to focus this just transition and to make it a strategic element, a strategic as our commitment to decarbonize. In 2019, we had a package that was that was designed at the same time, which was the Law for Energy Transition until 2050. And an energy plan that proposed a reduction of emissions, 39% reduction during a decade that would allow Europe to be able to achieve its objectives and then a just transition strategy that was in that same package. And we had a series of instruments that we needed to have in the administration to be able to start this transition that we start now, but that is is designed to last very long and to adapt itself to other problems. So we had an urgent action plan for the events that we had in the short term and we needed to have the same ambitious objective. So at the end of the process, especially now with this urgent plan that we considered for the closing of the minories and the mining facilities and some nuclear nuclear stations that are being reconverted. So we want to have zero impact and employment. And that is a very ambitious project, especially in areas that are depopulated. And we are doing some very harsh reconversion processes in this area. So it is important for us as a government, it was important to work en this strategy as something completely central. So just transition needed to be central, even from an administrative point of view, it had to be centralized. I am the director of the Institute for Just Transition. It is an institute that was created this year and it is at the same level as a general directorate for energy policy. And it is at the same level as the Office for Climate Change. So this is the way in which we want to work for just transition. And obviously we wanted to have an institutional level and some resources that gives you the possibility of acting and reacting so that you are at the same level as others when you're debating and negotiating these things. And it is helping us channel solutions and it is helping for this whole process to be very seamless. For instance, we're launching a green hydrogen process and we launched it together with Just Transition. And for instance, storing facilities, which is very important for our energy system. And we include all of this in the Just Transition strategy. So this model of having these Just Transition policies and endow them of enough importance, I think, is helping, is helping us realize or set up policies that are quite agile. Now, the strategy of Just Transition is not just this urgent plan. What we wanted mainly in a country such as the one we have with employment deficits deficits is to think about how we're going to really profit from this employment possibilities to improve our competitiveness and also the opportunity so that we can improve social cohesion. And all of this can derive from Just Transition. We have to think a lot about opportunities because this is a country with employment deficits. So we have to think about this Just Transition, because not only did we have deficits before COVID, but now we have a COVID context that is going to force us to be very intelligent, very agile and very innovative so that we can generate employment opportunities that people are going to be needing. So we need to really profit from this, from these possibilities. And it has to be with equality. So we have to think that this Just Transition must not just be giving jobs to men. It has also to give jobs to women. Just Transition has to also be an opportunity to create jobs for vulnerable collectives and we have to have a special perspective for the rural world in our country and we need for the administration to also observe all of this. Because every time we face a challenge or every time there is a sector that needs to be turned into something else or when we need to adjust a sector to decarbonization, we find a difficulty which is basing our decisions on data. Well, we have different sources, different sectors that are all of them interested in losses in wins and in the administration we have to provide them with an objective vision and we need to be able to be transparent and promote debate forums and social discussion forums so that this can be agile, so that we have this collective intelligence. Obviously, we also have to think about the training policies and active employment policies, which are two tools that are quite better, that could be improved in our current system so that we can really face these challenges with opportunities. Now, in any case, what is true is that although we are generating this strategic framework thinking about the future and how to help from the administration transformations that are going to take place in different sectors, in different territories, with different problems, well, we also have had to work in this urgent action plan that has to do with closing coal mines for 2018, that started in 2018 and closing our thermal coal power. We have seven coal stations that are closing and we will be closing most of our coal thermal stations. So it is a very agile closing process if we compare it with other regions in the world. So we are closing these stations and in our urgent plan we are committed to developing something that we call just transition agreements. We in the administration, I am getting used because I came from outside, but the administration usually uses those names and agreements or conventions is something that is often used in the administration. But what we wanted was to generate a tool, a new methodology that would allow us to get to territories that had already suffered a long conversion process and we wanted to commit ourselves to very specific objectives with a new methodology. So it's not about announcing millions because that's very easy. You can say, no, we're going to, when we close this station, we will provide 15 million. But we didn't want to commit on any number of millions because it had happened in the past, we didn't want to do that. It's not that that project is not important. That's not what I'm saying. But it's not the only thing that a government needs to do. We didn't also wanted to commit ourselves to projects, although it was urgent. It was something that we needed to do because the closings are taking place and the urgency is there. But we didn't want to commit ourselves to projects because they might not be the most adequate. Because sometimes they are very well intentioned, but sometimes we have to really see what are the consequences going to be in the mid to long term. So what we decided was to set up processes that were participatory processes with consultation. We had to diagnose the losses, the job losses, what jobs could be lost, what the economic impact is going to be in those territories, what municipalities are most impacted by those closing downs, those shutdowns. And where should we focus our attention? So we needed to run a diagnosis, a diagnosis about the present economic situation and the future impact. So we had a public consultation. We have audited it and right now what we are doing is setting it up in 10 different areas. And in the next few weeks, we will be issuing the first protocols for the nuclear station. So we would have 12 different processes ongoing. So apart from the diagnosis, we also wanted to ask people. Since we're going to do this and this is an opportunity, what can we do together? So with all the levels of the administration, we are working with the regional, regional and local administrations, but also with a great participation of the trade unions, companies and academia, NGOs. So these processes have been quite open. Out of the 10 that are ongoing, we have gotten around 1800 proposals, initiatives, lots of projects, lots of company projects, but also some social initiatives that should help us better make up the map of this Just Transition Convention or Agreement. So although this is being tough and it's being hard because shutting down a station is never going to be pretty, there is much uncertainty, always uncertainty around shutting down stations. And there is frustration and pain in many cases. And it's true that the participation of the people is being quite high. And that means that people want to participate in in the design of their own futures. And we're also starting to initiatives that we consider very interesting, especially with regards to participation in the collective co-construction of this territorial project. We are also introducing the tools to improve the participation of two collectives, two collectives that are not usually taken into account. Women on the one hand, which are basic to revert or to revert and avoid the masculinization of certain areas and because they're key and and and because it's selfish, maybe, but so that we can set population in the territory. Because without opportunities for women, we will not be able to transform these areas. And the participation of the young people who are not as organized, they have to help us with their vision to build this territory where they will have to to stay or we hope they will stay to work and live and and participate. So so that's where we're making progress. And this is a phase that is ongoing. We are now in a process of evaluation, evaluating all the initiatives. We will have to give it back to the territory so that amongst all of us, we can make the best decision. The energy transition tools are working quite quite quickly. It's never quick for the people, but they're working quite well. And in many cases, what we have to build is is like an economic context that is much more multi sectoral, more resilient. And it's not going to be the vector for energy transition. It's going to be different vectors, different different drivers, and we in the administration are starting to think that we don't need a helpline for all the territories that is just a copy paste. We have to think what sectors, what subsectors can work in certain areas and which ones can. So we have to do that with the people. We are working on it. It is a complex process. We have had to maybe due to the time that we had due to the roadmap. We have had to do some tools at the same time. And actually this process is very useful because we are now in a very good situation to try and and and better allocate the European funds because we have identified lots of projects and we're working with them. OK, thank you. Thank you so much, Laura. We will talk about the European that you have lots to say, but we don't have the time. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I want to highlight the importance of what has been done because I know that this this is something that you have been doing participation and consultation processes in the territory and this idea of giving a voice. So it's so that different collectives can be a part of this, can be real stakeholders, women, young people, vulnerable, collectives in the rural areas. I think that's key. Now, Joaquín Nieto, the Spanish representative of the ILO, after what Laura has said, I don't know what you're going to tell us because it has been quite comprehensive. So from the ILO, give us some key elements as specific as you can, because there are lots of questions already in the chat. And I would like to give the floor to the questions. So what are the key elements of the ILO? What is the situation we find ourselves in with regards to just translate and transition? Microphone, microphone, you have to unmute yourself. Thank you. Thank you so much, Cristina. Good afternoon. It is a pleasure to participate in another event with you. We have been sharing lots of events ever since the pandemic started. And I wanted to say that I'm very thankful to the Green Europeans for our donation and the Transifium Verde Foundation and La Casa de la Fondida for organizing this event that was so necessary and so timely. Because as Cristina said at the beginning, it is a very specific context to talk about just transition. And I'd say even more, it is the moment of truth. It is the moment for us to tell and hear the truth. And I am happy to share this space with Laura, obviously. She said and she was right that I was one of the pioneers of just transition. Why would I say otherwise? I have been one of the pioneers in the international agenda. I have been pioneering the idea and its development, but you are one of the main people responsible for just transition processes to be set up in a successful way. And that's a lot. So action is even more important than ideas. So you are right in the midst of it. And you are doing something that needs to be said. I will go first, Cristina. Efectivamente, es el momento de la verdad. Yes, it is the moment for truth. Why is it the moment for truth? Because it is now where two agendas have met, two agendas that needed to meet and they have met in this post-COVID agenda, post-pandemic agenda, because we're already preparing the changes, the necessary changes for the economic and social recovery that we will need after the pandemic. Yes, we are going through a unique time that has generated an unknown unemployment crisis, 400 million jobs have been lost and 400 jobs are going to be lost this quarter. We had never, never gone through such a crisis. The economy has dropped the world over in Latin America. We're talking about 20 percent. So it really is a situation that is going to leave a very deep footprint, because the health crisis is going to end, but we will have an economic and job crisis that is there and we will have to respond to it. Some countries are already responding to it. Europe is a clear case. We asked from different fields, different sectors for Europe to respond collectively, because we could not have a country by country recovery plan. And fortunately, Europe is responding with multimillion funds. And the same is going to be done in the UK and in the US, with Biden's US. And I'm sure that Canada and industrialized countries will do the same. So there's something that pains us in the international system, something that we suffer from, which is the fact that we're observing that industrialized countries are making important investments for the recovery. And we know that there will be a very interesting recovery. But in the rest of the world, they're lagging behind. They're being left behind. So we need to include, as well for the EU and for everyone else, we need to include an international dimension, an international cooperation dimension, because the recovery will not be possible of the world over if there are entire regions that are left behind, it will not be possible. So beyond that situation that we need to solve and our general secretary of the United Nations is insisting on a daily basis on this, beyond that, what is clear is that the time has come for recovery, not to be just considered as possible. But we need to understand that this recovery will show that the transformations that we needed can be done and energy and ecological transition where necessary and are necessary. So this convergence of agendas, the agenda for the recovery with investments that are really going to have an impact in the economy and productive systems by digitalizing them, by making them more or fair more just that has to come hand in hand with an ecological transition process and an energy transition process. And that's the case in Europe. The European Green Deal had shown it and the and the funds will be conditioned to the recovery plans in each country. They need to be targeting that objective. So that's clear as Dirk was saying it during his presentation in one of his slides in the European Green Deal. Just transition is part, is a seminal part of our policy and it is present in all of the areas of transformation that are required. So this convergence has come at the right time. It is the time for truth and the international institutions and I represent the international institutions. How have we reacted to this moment of truth? We always lag behind because in the climate agenda we are lagging way behind and part of the climate change we are not going to avoid it. I hope we can avoid the catastrophic climate change, but an important part of the climate change is already there and it's unavoidable. The warming of the planet is unavoidable. But although we're late to the party, it's true that in institutional organizations we had already foreseen that we needed these transformations and we had been talking about the transformations and that we needed to have just transition processes together with that. So the objectives, the sustainable goals of the UN show the spirit, the spirit of convergence of providing an answer. An environmental and social answer so that nobody is left behind. The ILO itself in 2017 had its own guidelines that are very interesting. What's interesting is that they are adopted by the three parties. So it's the governments, the world over. It's the trade unions and the corporate organizations that sit together to talk about the terms of this just transition in each of the of the different fields. So from that perspective, we're ready. It's true that it's been a long journey. And as Dirk was saying in one of his slides, it's also true that the first time that we thought about just transition in the negotiation processes was in Kyoto and I was there. I actually put that topic on the table. And as a matter of fact, we found a very harsh opposition in Kyoto from US trade unions. They just came to say no, that they were against the Kyoto protocol. And and quite clearly they said it and there was a divergence between European trade unions that I represented because I was the representative of the European Confederation of Trade Unions and the US trade unions who opposed the measures for the reduction of emissions. So that changed. It did change and Katrina influenced in many different things. I mean, there were debates in the trade union movement, but in 2007, we already had a conference, a very important conference in the US with 300 trade union leaders from all the different branches. And I have the honor of participating where they adopted their commitment to reduce emissions. So that was a change in the process. And now it is defended by everyone. Laura Martin Murillo, as the director of sustainable labor, actually worked a lot for this trend that Sharon Barrow expresses so clearly with the idea that there are no jobs in a dead world. And that Cristina, who's always so quick, said that a dead world, not only dead, also sick, if the world is sick, jobs don't really matter. And during the Paris Agreement, which substituted the Kyoto Protocol, and it is the most important agreement that we have to solve the climate crisis, we introduced just transition for jobs as a need in all of our climate change plans. And that's the situation we find ourselves in. So what does just transition mean? Just transition has three drivers. First of all, the measures that are adopted for the transformation of the productive model towards a sustainable model needs to generate jobs and they will generate jobs. The ILO has studied it and we see that for every job lost, we will generate four jobs and even a vision before before the changes in commitment with the protocol, the Kyoto Protocol, we thought that at least 24 million jobs would be generated and then we would lose 6 million. So millions of jobs are going to be generated, even more so, because now with the new plans, with this new reconstruction plans, many more jobs will be created. So we have to renew our studies. The ILO has to redo its studies. And that's the basic thing, because if people don't see social opportunities, it is very difficult for them to really be committed to this transition process. And what we will find will be just hurdles along the way. Obstacles, hurdles that will make us think that the yellow vests were just a simple glitch. So that's the main thing. And the second thing is that we need to help transformations, because not everything is about getting jobs or losing jobs. Sectors, most sectors will have to transform themselves. The construction sector, for instance, will have to keep on building, but in a different way, in a different way. Since the new buildings will have to be self-sufficient from an energy standpoint, and instead of building new new buildings and more intervention in the territory, they will have to rehabilitate the existing buildings in Spain and the world over. And that is a transformation of jobs. There will still be jobs in construction, but they will have to transform themselves. It's just like the automotive sector. They will have to now build electric cars and self-driving cars and other sorts of vehicles. So many of the processes are just transformation processes. But there are other processes that are just about shutting down plants radically. We have to shut them down. We have to completely stop using oil, gas and coal. And that means that the coal and gas and oil centrals have to be shut down. And this means that we will lose jobs. And these losses, these job losses, have to be given some sort of support because even if we create jobs, they will not be created in the same place where job is being destroyed. So they need to they need to have some sort of help. And that's what's difficult. And we have to help them by offering them these new opportunities, these new job opportunities, transformation of jobs when we can do it, but also knowing and also articulating some social protection measures that will allow those people to not lose their income. Because if they lose their income, then they will be left with nothing. And if they're left with nothing, they will oppose this transition. Y we also have to help them in the in the training processes so that they can so that they can get new jobs and in this new reality. And I have to say, and I would like for Dirk to write that down, that the ILO has said it Spain is an example. Right now, Spain is the most advanced example in that field. And it's not me saying it as the director of the ILO in Spain. But it's the ILO that says so at the international level. As a matter of fact, this position is being recognized. And that is why we invited the vice president of the government and minister for ecologic transition in Spain to be a part of the consultative council of the main initiative for climate action and employment action that we currently have that has been launched by the secretary of the United Nations, which is Climate Action. So Teresa Rivera is the vice president and she is also the co-president of this council. And and this is due to that recognition. We have recognized the work being done in Spain. So what are the keys of this of this work? And I will finish with that. No, I'm sorry, Joaquín, but we have to finish. So you have one minute. OK, in one minute. Not only are they in the laws in the national plans and to Brussels, they're not just within the legal framework. We also have created tools such as the one that Laura Martínez representing here as the director of the Institute, but also they have reached effective agreements as the director of the Institute was explaining. We have reached agreements of closing, shutting down coal mines and closing down coal thermal stations and energy stations. So these are agreements for just transition that I have put on the table. Thousands and thousands of projects of new projects, investment projects and new projects of productive fabric that are much more integrated than the previous economy. Y creo que podemos continuar con la debate, porque esta es una experiencia de vida que ha sido realizada con un acuerdo, con un acuerdo de los tres sectores y con la participación de la sociedad. Gracias mucho, Joaquín. Sí, tenemos que destacar la importancia de las unidades de trade en España, que eres el protagonista durante el protocolo de Kyoto, porque tenemos que escribir la historia. Si no lo damos, las personas se olvidan de esto. Y quizás eso tiene un poco que ver con el hecho que ahora en España tenemos ese Instituto para Just Transición, que Laura Martín Murillo es el director. Y eso es por eso que tenemos algunos casos de suceso que pueden ser estudiados, que pueden ser copiados, que pueden ser un ejemplo de mejor prácticas para que puedan promover o creer otras acciones en otros lugares en el mundo. Estamos haciendo muy malo, pero obviamente Just Transition es todo, pero hay algunas preguntas que me gustaría preguntar. Y me gustaría preguntar a los que quieren escribir algo. Puedes escribirlo en el chat y intentaré leer todas las preguntas. Dirk, hay una pregunta para vosotros de Lucia Baratec. ¿Cómo piensas que la política de agrocultura común impactará la Just Transición para el sector de agrocultura? Me gustaría que sea tan breve como posible si pudieras, Dirk. Muy, muy corto. Así que aquí vemos, podría decir, un combate entre la antigua visión de la Comisión de Junta y la nueva visión de la Comisión de la Fundación. En el Green Deal, hay una estrategia de formación para el foro, que realmente quiere transformar la agrocultura en una Just Transición. Pero el budget para los próximos años para la política de agrocultura común aún fue desarrollado por la Comisión de la Formación y fue adaptado y aprobado por el Parlamento. Así que ahora estamos en una situación terrible. No se ve muy bien, decir honestamente, pero hay mucha presión ahora de los NGOs y de los partidos políticos progresivos para realmente re-adaptar este budget para la agrocultura común para la política del Green Deal. Pero decirlo, esto es un buen ejemplo de que no es fácil para cambiar el curso. Es un combate y puedo mostrarles que los agrocultores y los lobbyos son muy fuertes, no es un juego 1 en este momento. Es un combate para ser fallados los próximos meses. Muchísimas gracias, Dirk. A veces cuando hablamos de la Just Transición y insistimos en esto porque estoy convencida de la factura de que esta Just Transición contra la sustentabilidad se ha already taken place. Es already taking place, but it needs to be more ambitious. It needs to be faster, it needs to be fair. But sometimes when we say that, we forget that, well, obviously, like Laura was saying in transitions, there's always victims and there will be victims in this transition. But what are we going to do to try and limit the number of victims? And if there are victims to give them some support, but with regards to agricultural policies, we see that clash as we see it in other sectors. Laura, Daniela Ruiz is asking you about the global vision that Spain has with regards to this topic. I think we're talking a lot about strategy, energy strategy, and I would like to better understand what's the global Spanish vision in that regard. So remember that you need to activate your microphone. Yes, the global vision that we have in Spain beyond energy strategy. Daniela, I'm going to try and give you an answer. From our standpoint, from our perspective, the just transition strategy is not an energy transition strategy because it didn't make any sense if you think about the new development of the territories. It is a just transition strategy that was included within the package of climate strategy, but it's an ecological transition that thinks about transitions that have to take place in tourism, for instance, or transitions that will have to take place in other sectors and adaptation that is required. So our perspective, our approach, because you know that the different solutions will have to take into account all of these elements. It's true that in the urgent action plan, we are focusing on the need, on the need to have an agile energy transition, but the strategy is much more linked with an ecological transition, something that is consistent with many other elements, not just energy. Yes, actually, if we don't have a global vision, it is impossible to have a transition, so it has to have this holistic vision. Thank you so much, Daniela Joaquin. From your international viewpoint, MSR, I don't know who it is, says, don't you think that the green transition is not considering how dependent Europe is from the raw materials that are being extracted, for instance, solar, solar cells, computers, everything that we are extracting from outside of Europe, from a mining sector that is destroying the environment. Are we going to say no to those raw materials and mining be sustainable? So this green transition in Europe, is it going to be done while extracting raw materials in an unsustainable manner outside of sun? No, but that has to change as well. Metal mining, for instance, we need transformation in that regard worldwide. And it's not sustainable right now that mining is not sustainable. And there are enough materials right now that have been extracted during the during my linea of metal mining. There is enough material for us to change, to change your perspective and change the focus and the ecologic transition, not just energy transition. Ecologic transition is not just about producing energy with renewable energies. It's also about doing it, using as little materials as we can, and with circular economy criteria that have to also be embedded within that transition doubtlessly. So, yes, obviously, we have to dig deeper in that sense, because some of us still think that energy transition and ecological transition is just a partial transition. When actually it has to be a very transcendental transition. And in other words, if we do not protect biodiversity, whatever changes take place in the world of energy will be insufficient. If we do not change our agro food sector, considering that meat represents 30% of the emissions of the agricultural sector, not just through deforestation, but the whole system, the whole global system that we have for this agro food system that is completely inefficient and that we need to change. As Dirk was saying, we have to think about a different sort of production. We have to take into account animals well being and without those changes, without those changes, the ecological transition will not take place. So, energy transition is just a part within the context of the ecological transition, which is general. And it's also necessary to face climate change as well, because the effects of climate change on biodiversity and agro systems can also be offset with responsibility in other sectors. COVID has helped us in that sense. Yes, yes, that's true. It has allowed us to understand this codependence of the different sectors. Yes, yes, this so noses process also makes us think certain aspects of globalization and it helps us understand some aspects of relocation of certain economic activities. That's also very interesting because that could also reduce energy consumption and emissions that are linked to transport of goods and people because it makes no sense as it is right now. Marisol Soto was asking this question, but I think it's sufficiently answered Laura. Paula is asking about a concrete example of ecological transition that is taking place right now in Spain. Could you give us some specific cases? Well, we have transitando in this urgent transition plan. We have Andorra en Teruel. We have three processes in Asturias. We have three processes in Castilla y León. Y lo que puedo decirte ahora es que estamos identificando lo que será el final. Lo que puedo decirte es lo que algunas empresas están haciendo. Estamos en este acuerdo que Pakin está hablando de lo que dijimos. Electricidad. Companies que querían cerrar sus estaciones. Dicimos, ¿no deberíamos proponer algo en el territorio antes de salir? Porque estas son grandes empresas que quieren estar aquí y así y así. Ellos han creado algunos proyectos. Así que puedo decirte los proyectos que currently tengo que son los que realmente quiero compartir. Pero no puedo, no puedo ahora, porque tienen que ser evaluados. Tenemos que ver si podemos obtener todas las autorizaciones y así. Así que tenemos que trabajar en eso durante el próximo año. Pero, por ejemplo, en Guardaulilla, estamos cerrando una estación que es 300 megas. Esa estación thermal y Iberdrola han oferto la posibilidad de crear un parque. Fue un acceso que tenían. Así que ellos suponieron crear un parque de PV 400 megas. Y además de eso, la empresa está ahora creando un proyecto, un proyecto de innovación. Y han llegado a un acuerdo con el City Council de la Municipalidad de Guardaulilla, para que puedan tener un proceso de entrenamiento vocacional. Eso es lo que la empresa está haciendo. Así que lo que estamos haciendo en las áreas para mirar los proyectos, los proyectos que esta estación de PV puede crear. Porque eso podría ser interesante por un par de años, pero tenemos que garantizar que hay trabajos permanecientes ahí cuando terminamos con esa estación de PV, esa farmación de PV. Así que tenemos que ver qué proyectos son de sentido para completar esa situación económica. Así que eso es lo que estamos haciendo. Estamos elegiendo esos proyectos. Así que estos casos específicos están en lugar ya en 10 diferentes territorios en España. Pero el mapa final, bueno, puedo decirte sobre Belilla, pero puedo decirte sobre Aragon, también. Pero es más fácil cuando tengas proyectos grandes que ya han sido anunciados por las empresas. Y en la administración, estamos intentando ser muy, muy cuidadosos. Estamos justamente mirando las diferentes interacciones, porque necesitamos, en fin, para el resultado final, estar bien desde un punto económico también. Yo sé que eso no es tu pregunta, pero creo que es muy interesante, porque estoy aprendiendo sobre esto, por ejemplo, las empresas de dos empresas en las áreas de minería, han dado esos subsidios. En fin, no hemos podido llegar a los objetivos que queremos. Por lo tanto, estamos intentando crear un grupo de diferentes iniciativas económicas que podrían generar un modelo que podría crear un modelo resílico. No puedo darles muchos detalles específicos, pero en muchas de las áreas, ya tenemos iniciativas que las empresas van a hacer y otros proyectos que estamos trabajando ahora. Por lo tanto, el próximo año, vamos a poder ver lo final de la foto. Gracias, Laura. Creo que hay una web, o al menos un documento que hemos sentado, donde tenemos algunos de los casos en los que se documentaron algunos de los casos. Si quieres escribirlo en la chat, eso es bueno. Te diré algo más tarde, pero Dirk quería llevar la flora, pero no le dio la flora, así que Dirk, venga, porque creo que quieres decir algo sobre lo que dice. Gracias, Laura. Es sobre la cantidad de materiales que necesitamos para esta transición. Y creo que, a un lado, es correcto, hemos pensado por décadas y cientos de años los materiales como el cocorro y el iron, pero estas nuevas tecnologías, las renovables, necesitan estos raros materiales. Y así, para ponerlo sencillamente, si querés decir algo, que ahora funciona en el petróleo por un caro electrónico, será que necesitaremos un montón de minerales para estas raros materiales, que afectarán el país en el sur, que afectarán las comunidades. Y así, una transición justa no es solo hacer la producción más eficientemente, y, digamos, sustentable, sino que, por lo menos, también es sobre la suficiencia. Tenemos que comprar y producir menos carros. Tenemos que reutilizar cosas. Y así, también es sobre la transición a nivel de la conservación, para que los materiales que tenemos en nuestra economía circular estén en una forma que el futuro es urbano. Usamos las cosas que tenemos, no es siempre nuevo. Y así, la transición justa también es transmitir este objetivo dentro de las fronteras planetarias como una especie de suficiencia, una prosperidad sin drogas. Así que creo que esto es también un elemento importante. Y, por lo menos, para recuperar esta tema y hacer énfasis en eso. ¿Qué elementos de evaluación para las políticas públicas incluidas en estas transiciones justas? Porque estamos haciendo cosas. Están haciendo políticas públicas que han estado en la primera vez. Así que entiendo que el nivel de la incertidumbre tiene que ser muy alto. No sabemos qué mejor funciona y qué worse funciona. Así que es por eso que las políticas públicas necesitan una evaluación más grande para saber qué funciona, qué no funciona, qué funciona. Y si no funciona, por lo menos, y si no funciona, por qué no funciona, y si no funciona, por qué impacta tiene. Así que una dinámica de evaluación de las políticas públicas que saben que soy un fan. Así que, ¿cómo es que se está haciendo? Yo también lo amo. Yo también soy un fan de ellos. Porque, por lo menos, ¿por qué no podemos hacerlos? Si no podemos aprender de ellos, ¿por qué deberíamos hacerlo? Así que, para la transición justa, tenemos una asesina intermedia. Así que, para cada acuerdo o convención, tenemos indicadores y tenemos que hacer una evaluación. Pero, además de eso, realmente queremos aprender de lo que ha sido hecho anteriormente. Así que, lo que estamos haciendo en el mismo tiempo es evaluar las políticas previas. Así que ahora lo que tenemos que hacer es instalar las nuevas líneas para dar apoyo. Y lo que hemos estado haciendo, por ejemplo, en estas últimas semanas, tenemos que ver a todos los granos que se han dado a las empresas, qué son los resultados obtendidos en las diferentes regiones, en los diferentes sectores. Así que, no tenemos mucha información, porque durante los últimos décadas, la administración no ha sido muy responsable en el necesito de crear una inventividad de toda esta información y evaluar a los mismos. Pero, estamos empezando a hacer esto. Estamos empezando a hacer esto. Porque, para crear nuevas herramientas, puedes pensar en algo que piensa que es genial, pero ya había sido hecho y no fue bueno. Así que, estamos haciendo ese trabajo y estoy aprendiendo mucho. Y, como sea el caso, he estado en este mundo durante mucho tiempo y he aprendido mucho, y es sorprendente, porque el estudio y los datos son sorprendentes. Y tenemos muchas opiniones o propiedades que hemos construido en una manera fácil. Así que, ahora mismo, todas las convenciones o las agreements estarán evaluadas. Estamos intentando ser muy transparentes. Todas las diagnósticas tienen una evaluación externa. Ellos tienen algunos procesos de consultación. Así que, lo que queremos es que todo lo que producimos sea uploadado en el website horrible que el instituto tiene, que lo cambiaremos. Yo estoy vendiendo, lo cambiaremos a ese website. Y, como vamos alongo, no solo lo evaluaremos al final del proceso, pero también queremos poder seguir en contacto. Así que, en los próximos tres años, por ejemplo, con el plan de recuperación, hay muchas finanzas, muchas políticas, muchas iniciativas. Y, tal vez, esa posibilidad, esa asociación, y dar la sociedad con esa información nos ayudará mucho, nos ayudará a mejorar la situación. Espero, espero. Sí, eso es lo importante. Ahora que estamos hablando del website, gracias, gracias mucho Raúl por el link. Ahora tenemos esto aquí. Todo el mundo puede leerlo. Daniela está preguntando una pregunta que creo que es para todos. Así que, voy a decirle una pregunta y puedes responder de tu propio punto de vista. ¿Tienes de tu trabajo en la Fundación Europea Green European? Joaquín, desde el punto de vista internacional de la ILO, y Laura, desde la perspectiva española. ¿Qué es la estrategia para la distribución de recursos de grandes empresas a pequeñas empresas? Porque una transición como esta, si no todas las empresas tienen las mismas opciones, no todas las empresas tienen las mismas herramientas, no todas tienen las mismas posibilidades para lograr esto. ¿Qué piensas de un punto de vista estratégico? ¿Quieres comenzar? El microdirke. Bueno, es claro. Y también diré ahora que la crisis de COVID-19 se presenta que grandes empresas tienen más recursos para manejar una crisis. Entonces, también cuando tienes una transición perioda, es claro que pequeñas empresas, familias, empresas. Y así necesitan apoyo específico. Así que creo que por eso tenemos que desarrollar pequeños mecanismos específicos, pequeños mecanismos para el 8% financiero, para el trabajo de la habilidad, para realmente asegurar que no solo las grandes trabajan, y vemos que las pequeñas tienen más veces difíciles. Creo que para esto realmente necesitan locales y transiciones regionales. Es muy difícil tener este tipo de plan general que se fita en todo el mundo. Y creo que el desafío es desarrollar un tipo de sistemas de apoyo donde puedes establecer un ecosistema de pequeñas empresas. También de las cooperaciones de ciudadanos. Veamos un nuevo tipo de cooperación de ciudadanos en el campo de la energía renovada, en el campo de los sistemas locales. Veamos locales y transiciones locales. Creo que necesitamos plan de transiciones regionales que se concentran en estas pequeñas empresas. Puedes decir que es también un tipo de economía circular, porque si apoyas a las empresas locales, mucho más valor estará en la comunidad. Creo que este es un elemento importante, pero no hay, ¿qué diría yo? No hay billetes de silva, o realmente hay que ver para cada región qué es el tipo de empresas locales que están en una transición justa y en la que las empresas necesitan apoyo. Y, por supuesto, transición es siempre también un proceso difícil, porque en algunos sectores queremos despegar ciertas sectores, donde las empresas son grandes o pequeñas y tenemos que construir nuevas. Para dar un ejemplo, lo que deberíamos hacer hoy es para enviar pilotos de aeropuerto. Podríamos enviarlos a las escuelas para aprender cómo viajar con trenes. Para darles un ejemplo. Pero estas son las cosas que tenemos que hacer para grandes y pequeñas empresas. Y con tantas. Muchísimas gracias. Gracias a ti, Dirk. Tienes dicho uno de los keywords que no he usado, que es el ecosistema. No he escuchado eso antes. En la idea de transición, siempre tenemos que regresar a ese ecosistema ideal que puede generar trabajos que son respetables con el ambiente, que son considerados con justicia social, en oposición a una cultura monocultura con solo uno o dos empresas que han sido en un área explotando todos los recursos naturales. Así que creo que es uno de los ques. Joaquín, déjame vuestra visión internacional. Bueno, creo que mi micrófono está listo. Sí, está listo. Ok, está listo. Así que creemos que necesitamos a todas las empresas. Las grandes, la larga, y las pequeñas, y las muy pequeñas. Todos ellos tendrán que contribuir. Y ahora hablando de las grandes empresas, no estoy pensando solo sobre las empresas de energía. También estoy pensando en el sector financiero. El sector financiero es importante. Si queremos para los investimientos, para mantenerlo aquí, si queremos un investimiento público en la recuperación, si queremos tener el impacto que deberíamos tener, entonces tienen que tener un efecto de liberación. Tienen que poder multiplicar por cuatro o por diez los efectos de estos investimientos. Es para ellos. Así que necesitamos el sector financiero. El sector financiero tiene que ir en esa dirección. Y lo importante es que el estímulo va a ser dado para que todas las empresas estén en esa dirección. Y lo importante es que las medidas serán adoptadas para ayudar para la transformación de todas las empresas que pueden transformarse. Y para que podamos ayudar a nuevos proyectos para ayudar a nuevas creaciones de empresas. Así que es cierto. La actividad local, la actividad local, es un estímulo para la creación de empresas dentro del territorio. Y, probablemente, eso lo hace más fácil. Una economía que es más diversificada permite para una mayor sustentabilidad, no solo para la sustentabilidad financiera, sino también para la sustentabilidad ecológica. Pero en este proceso, muchas empresas van a desaparecer, muchas empresas de gran tamaño y pequeñas empresas van a desaparecer. Y tenemos que realmente llevar eso en cuenta para que podamos ayudar a los procesos de transformación. Y para que esas empresas que desaparecen estén afortunadas por la creación de nuevas empresas. Y eso es lo que las tradiciones, las convenciones son. Y como directora de la institución, estos planos van a ser presentados el próximo año. Pero creo que van a proporcionar muy interesantes resultados en la creación de nuevas pequeñas empresas o en la transformación de pequeñas y pequeñas empresas. Esto es algo muy interesante dentro de este nuevo concepto de cambio del sistema productivo, laura. Bueno, muchas gracias, Laura. ¿Puedes darles vuestra visión de español? Bueno... Creo que, especialmente para el sistema de energía del gobierno, hemos estado realmente trabajando en la idea de una consumida de self-consumption y de las comunidades de energía. Queremos para el sistema de energía que sea populada con diferentes stakeholders. Queremos para nuevos tools para los pequeños stakeholders. Y las áreas, como le dijiste, Cristina, las áreas en las que estamos trabajando ahora con el Plan Urgental de Monocultures. Esa era una gran empresa. Esa era una gran empresa que le permitió la educación, que le permitió los trabajos, que le permitió todo. La empresa era un territorio. Pero es cierto que no hace sentido ir de una gran empresa, de una economía que fue creada por solo una empresa a una economía que también es protegida por una gran empresa. Pero es cierto que cuando esa gran empresa presenta algún tipo de proyecto, nos da un poco de mente a la territorio. Así que tenemos que intentar encontrar la balance. Tenemos que intentar tener un sistema de diversos ecosistemas. No hay territorios que sean dependientes de solo una empresa. Y eso pasa a nosotros en muchas cosas. A veces una empresa, sabemos que cuando el mercado se cerra, toda la región puede ser creada. Sabemos el impacto que puede haber. Solo como necesitamos eso. Solo como necesitamos tener eso. También necesitamos una medida media y pequeña para diversificaciones sectoriales. Así que en los sectores de reconversión, en los que muchas empresas están cerradas, necesitamos tener proyectos, no proyectos exclusivos, porque eso lo hace más fácil, porque tienen bastante poder. Así que necesitamos encontrar un lugar entre los dos. Sí, el importante es para los grandes empresas que sean el vehículo para todos los demás, para que puedan favorizar la creación de ese ecosistema. Sí, es el cambio que vemos en los sistemas productivos que están en esa dirección, y, de la otra mano, no en la otra. Pero los grandes unitos productivos van a dar birth a dos pequeños unitos productivos que están interconectados. Y la digitización también permite que esa interconexión suceda. Así que esta interconexión, supply chains, procesos que son muy complexos, que proporcionan nuevas oportunidades que son muy positivas, pero que también generan una serie de efectos que necesitan ser correctos. Así que cada cambio va a causar un cambio diferente en todas las direcciones que necesitamos manejar con criteria de transición justa y transición ambiental. Ok, vamos a tener una última ronda de preguntas, porque no estamos haciendo muy bien en cuanto a tiempo, pero todavía tenemos muchas preguntas. Así que hay tres preguntas, uno por cada. Y voy a preguntar a ustedes para decirles qué serían las tres propiedades principales que currently believe que son básicas para hacer progreso en esta transición justa. Así que si tuvieras que escribirte a Santa, ¿qué preguntarías? Para los sectores públicos privados, lo que quieras. Y vamos a darles la flora. Así que voy a preguntar a ustedes para esas propiedades. Ok, Virg, pregunta. Ana Magdalena, creo que es. Cómo reducir el consumo si nuestra economía necesita... La consumción, si nuestra economía necesita constantemente crecer para no crecer. Me siento si es una pregunta muy rica. No, no es básico. Esto es realmente la pregunta. Virg, ¿cómo reducir la consumción? Si nuestra economía necesita seguir constantemente trabajando. ¿Qué son las tres propiedades principales para una transición justa? Gracias por esta muy simple pregunta para cerrar esta sesión. Creo que no es verdad que nuestra economía siempre ha de crecer. Es una forma muy reciente de pensar. En realidad, solo fue después de la Segunda Guerra de la Segunda Guerra que el GDP fue introducido como un tipo de temor. Lo que creo es esencial es que para tener una buena vida, no necesitamos cada semana para consumir más. Lo que necesitas es la garantía de que tus necesidades básicas están cumplidas. Entonces, lo que necesitamos más, y lo que voy a poner en la carta, es que invito en esas estructuras colectivas que nos permiten vivir una buena vida, una vida sustentable con menos consumción. Así que, si hay buen transporte público, no necesito un carro. Si hay mucha buena comida local, no necesito el negocio agro. No necesito los vegetales de Perú. Así que esto es el número uno. Número dos es, por favor, construyera la nueva economía e invitar a las iniciativas de ciudadanos. Hay tantos ciudadanos siendo entretenidos sociales, estableciendo coex, construyendo estas energías, esta pasión, que va a llevar el futuro en sus manos. Y el tercero es, vamos a intentar construir una sociedad más relajada. A este momento, tenemos un burn-out de las personas trabajando muy bien en sus trabajos, y tenemos un burn-out de los planetas. Así que, vamos a tener una sociedad más relajada. Y si preguntan a las personas, pero en el final, es lo más importante. No es un nuevo smartphone, es tener tiempo para nuestros amigos y familiares. Así que estos son tres elementos más importantes en mi libro. Qué bien, ya más podemos hacer bueno. Podríamos tener webinars como esta. Podríamos tener webinars para el día todo, porque no tendríamos que ser limitados a nuestro tiempo. Ok, ¡fuck it! Lucia es preguntando. Lucia Patek está preguntando. Pueden preguntar si estás optimista con respecto a la posibilidad de España para lograr los objetivos de reducción en el protocolo de parámetro. Y si piensas que esta transición es justa, estará sucesa. Dice que estará sucesa. ¿Puede que eso podría ser escalado a otros niveles? Y tus tres prioridades. Ok, primero. Me acuerdo con lo que Dirk fue diciendo sobre esta transformación. Esta transformación también tiene que incluir otros elementos. Y en realidad, esos elementos están ahí. Por ejemplo, educación, care, public health. Estos son algunos de los lessones importantes que aprendieron de la pandemia y que van a estar ahí. Y que van a estar ahí durante nuestros procesos de recuperación. La economía de carácter, y todas las relaciones sociales de carácter, van a cambiar. Y van a cambiar porque de cómo muchas mujeres demandan que no quieren vivir en una sociedad que discrimina contra ellos, que no quieren vivir en una sociedad igual y que no quieren tener una posición igual en el mercado laboral. Así que esto va a cambiar el mercado laboral, pero también la energía de carácter. Y eso va a ser básico. Y ahora tendremos políticas de salud y educación y entrenamiento. Vamos a verlo como un derecho durante nuestra vida. Así que estos son cambios que, desde el punto de vista de empleo, van a cambiar muchos trabajos. Así que esos, y ahora déjame escribir mi libro, mi libro a Santa. So, first of all, an international recovery. It needs to be a world recovery. It cannot just be a recovery for industrialized countries because it's not possible. I mean, not even prosperity is possible in a world where part of the world is in poverty. That's the first thing. Second, just transition needs to be at the core of all of these transitions. Just transition has to be sustainable from an environmental point of view because if it's not, it will not be just. We cannot have social development. There will be a social implosion and there will be no justice. So it has to be just with fair work, decent jobs. So just transition has to be at the core of everything. And the third one would be participation, social dialogue, the participation of society. We have to go towards a society where everything will be better distributed. There will be a public economy and a private economy, but there will be a third sector economy, a social economy, a cooperative economy that has a very important space and that should cover a third of the economy. And this means that we need more participation in every field, in every sector with social dialogue and with participation at all levels. So those would be my three wishes. Ok, thank you very much Joaquin. And Laura, our general director, we finish with you. Bertha is asking about pedagogical matters. What we need to include in these just transition strategies for the society to understand it, to really be involved in them and be engaged with them. So we are going to close with pedagogy. I am not going to be very pedagogical, I'm afraid. I'm going to be, I'm not going to be very pedagogical because the problem that we have with people who lose their jobs is not a pedagogical problem, it's a problem of need. So it doesn't matter how much you explain things to people who are 60 years old and who counted on being retired in their jobs, they are going to be completely changed. So I can try and give them support, but I cannot be pedagogical. So first of all, we have to be honest. We have to be honest with the fact that there is need because the worst scenario is to not have a transition, an ecological transition, that's the worst scenario. Not decarbonizing is the worst scenario. So everything is better than that. We need a transition, but we also need to be sensible. We need to see how those changes are going to take place and that they're very difficult and it doesn't matter if you can show them that there will be an employment. Maybe there are differences in salaries and maybe those differences in salaries can have an influence in what your family can do or cannot do. So we're talking about things that are never simple. So yes, you have to be pedagogical. You have to explain things to the society. There needs to be more commitment by all the actors, but I don't think that the people involved. I mean, I don't think that there are people against the change because they're not sensitive to the environment. They don't have this sensitivity because it's different to their way of life. No, but I think that they were referring to the fact that society, the whole society, not the ones that are impacted. The society needs to understand what is being done. Oh, OK, well, then communication. I mean, it's very difficult to communicate. I have realized that it's very difficult to communicate and it's even more difficult to communicate in politics because no matter what you say, if you're not noisy enough, if if if you're communicating, you're talking about your processes. If you're trying to be informed where we listen to one another, we try to provide with solutions. It's true that you're creating a good space in those societies, but it is very difficult to disseminate that message. That is not just a problem in just transition. It is a problem with regards to communication in general. The capacity we have to to share this pedagogical ideas and administrations and it can happen with vaccines and many different things. There is too much noise in the system and it makes it very difficult. So I think we have to build locally. That's where you can create that space for construction and constant learning. And then with regards to the rest, I might not have an answer because lately I am a bit at a loss with regards to even having the best of of experts and the best political will. It is very difficult to send a sensible message to society, but not because of the society, but because of the channels. OK, then maybe that's a wish, right? To be able to communicate. Well, my wish is an international wish as well. I would like for us to have a good governance scenario. The world is not pretty. It's not very pretty. There aren't so many governments who want to change things and I would like for that to happen. So we're risking a lot in this construction of international governance because we're all one and that's my desire. OK. So we will have to ask La Casa Encendida and Transición Justa and the Green European Foundation to organize another debate so that we can talk about governance, pedagogy and communication because they're all very much linked. But I think that's one of the main challenges about how to do things or how not to do things. So this is actually an underlying topic and I think that this is something that is present in ecology transition in general. So I have been a horrible moderator. This was supposed to last just one hour and we have been here for one and a half hours and we could continue, but we have to stop here. So I want to thank all those 50 people who have been constantly connected. I would like to thank you for listening and I know that this is a very interesting topic. So I would like to thank all the people and organizations who have made this event possible. La Casa Encendida, the Green European Foundations and Transición Justa and the organizers are telling me that I have to remind you that on December 3rd we will have the next event which is towards a fair or just tourism and low in carbon emissions and we will see the different perspectives and environmental and economic perspective from the different sectors who are really suffering in this pandemic. And you have the website there, transiciónberde.es where you have all the information about this new event and it's abundantly clear that we have to keep on talking, debating, politicizing things and understanding things and dealing with all of them so that we can really understand them so that we can have a just transition. So thank you all very much. Thank you all very, very much. And we'll continue in the fight. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye bye. Thank you.