 ThinkTec, BusinessQuapTalk, I'm Crystal, still here in Hong Kong and Asia and still trying to navigate some very important issues around Asia and why that's important to the globe and to YE and everything. So let's talk about binary spaces, okay? Let's face it, the world is still a very binary place. We see things in black and white. We don't like to muddle in between spaces. And so we need to think about why this is such an uncomfortable topic. So today we're going to talk about gender issues. And I have my wonderful guest here to talk about being trans in Asia, which sounds like it's a loaded layered topic that we need to unpeel because there's the identity, the cultural issues, the transnational aspects of movement to different places and what it means as a body and identity in a place that is restricted by so many patriarchal and masculine and heteronormative controls. So here we have, I have Brenda here with me. She's a lecturer at the Hong Kong University. Let me introduce her properly. Brenda earned her BS, MA and PhD in all psychology at the University of Santo Tomas and her research interests are mainly on LGBTQ experiences and narratives. Brenda teaches in the Gender Studies program at the University of Hong Kong. She's always been among the most visible queer activists in Hong Kong, the Philippines and globally and has appeared on TV and radio. Her research work and publication is mostly on exploring the trans identities using interdisciplinary approaches. And she is on the executive board of the ILGA Asia and ILGA world and currently the Society of Transsexual Women of the Philippines. So a warm welcome to Brenda here on ThinkTed. Hi, Brenda. Hello, Mabuhay. Thank you, Kristal and everyone at ThinkTed. Hello to everyone in Hawaii and everyone watching us beyond. Thank you for having me. It's such an honor my first time and I'm very happy to talk. And it's really a privilege of mine to speak to you here in Asia. We're both here, we're both Asian, but we're both kind of transnational people navigating academic spaces and trying to be visible to create voices for, you know, communities that need to be heard, right? So let's talk about you personally first and then we can talk about your work. Tell us where you grew up and why you ended up in Hong Kong. So I was born in the Philippines. I was born in Samar. So it's one of those islands in the Visayan region of the Philippines. And then I grew up in Manila. The Philippines is predominantly a Christian or Catholic country. So I was baptized, I was raised Catholic. It's quite conservative, but quite open. I wouldn't say open, but very tolerant towards LGBTQ people, but still very conservative. And the first time that I learned about being trans, well actually the first time I identify as a girl I remember was I was five or six years old and we didn't really have the language of trans, you know, or LGBT. When I was growing up we didn't really use these acronyms, but I knew as soon as I was back then that I am a girl because I was assigned male at birth or assumed or assigned male at birth. So that's that's and I'm quite out about that for a long time, you know, I mean, like for our viewers or listeners, I would like them to also know that not all trans people are out and that not all LGBTQI people want to come out. But in my case, I kind of got in use to coming out as trans. So Ford of your family to feel comfortable enough to out yourself or what was it? Quitely, yes. That's true because I guess I would be very fortunate because my family, my parents in particular, were very accepting. Well, when they were still alive, unfortunately, my dad passed away about five years ago. And then my mom passed away almost 12 years ago, or more than 12 years ago, rather. Yeah. And I think the ones who had a difficulty really accepting me for who I am were some of the people surrounding my parents, some some extended family members and a few neighbors, you know, some of my teachers in primary school, secondary school and university. Yeah, it's not been easy. And I think because of the Catholic upbringing, you know, because like, when we go to mass, we have this portion of the mass called the homily. And every now and then, some of the homily of the priests would normally cost like a stigma towards LGBTQI people, you know, and that kind of swing my parents every now and then. I think my parents have been very accepting of me. Yeah, you're lucky for that. I mean, because societal pressures, you see it all over the world, right, are a big factor in having trans people or non-binary individuals internalizing and also causing deep, deep mental issues because of that lack of being able to express yourself, right? So going forward, when you were like growing up as you know, when your sexuality was budding, so to speak, you know, teenager life, were you dating? Were you attracted to certain types of genders or like how did that inform again, your space and your identity? When I talk about my gender and my sexuality, I tend to use the Superman and Wonder Woman analysis, especially when I talk about it with kids. I'd say that I first discover being Wonder Woman. When I was growing up, the live action version of Linda Carter's Wonder Woman was quite popular. I love Wonder Woman. She's my favorite. Is she a free girl? Yes. And then so at five, at five or six years old, I really gravitated towards her. I feel like Wonder Woman and my mom or my mother, they were like my role models as women and wanted to be that kind of woman, like my mom, like Wonder Woman. But about a couple of years after that, maybe when I was seven or eight years old, I remember watching the live action version of Superman with Christopher Reeve as the main actor. And he was like my first crush. So Christopher Reeve as Superman was my first crush. So that's how I discovered my sexuality as well. So I think I discovered my gender identity earlier than my sexuality later on, because it's quite important for me to make that distinction in the Philippines because back home, they tend to conflate sexuality and gender. They think that I think of myself as a girl because I like guys, but it's not necessarily the case. So trans women can like any anyone, you know, there are straight trans women, there are lesbians among us, but there are also non-sexual among us. But in my case, I'm a straight trans woman and Superman's Christopher Reeve's version kind of awakened that in me. So for the longest time, I've been attracted to men, including trans men, some trans gender men. And I would date, you know, I'm not dating currently, but I would, I would date, but yeah, back in the day. Back in the day, okay. Well, that's been a long time. You know, okay, so you've been back in Hong Kong, you've moved to Hong Kong. And I just want to address that people who don't know the kind of the nuances between the different Asian cultures here in Hong Kong, there is a quite strong coded discriminating hierarchy, if you agree with me, right? On the color line in terms of the anti kind of like, there is a, it is a very negative perception, or at least a class distinction between people from Southeast Asia and South Asia, from the East Asians. Also, because of the economic relationship, right? A lot of the Hong Kong family households have a domestic capital who tends to be either from the Philippines or Indonesia and all these places. And so there is this really kind of an awkward, a discriminating relationship. And so when you come here, and you're, you know, you're an academics, but you're also seen as a Filipino woman, you know, how did you, how did that affect you coming here? Initially, I was very excited. So it was 2011. And I was, it was my first time out of the country actually. It was a, it's kind of weird as well, because it's the first time I boarded the plane. It's a, it was my first time on a plane and out of the country. And I was quite excited. But when I landed on the airport, I remember that, so there was like a ground attendant at the Hong Kong International Airport. And she was kind of assisting our new arrivals. And then to anyone that she identify as Filipinas, she's going to have this quite condescending tone to pull us towards a particular line, because there is a line towards a Filipino domestic worker. So I think she, she kind of assumed if I was a domestic worker. And then I said, I have a particular visa. Do I stay in the same line? And then she, her tone kind of change, it kind of went a little lighter. So I think in terms of maybe it's an ethnic identification or colorism, maybe she have identified me as from one particular group of Southeast Asians, Filipinas in particular. But I just felt that there was a shift, you know, when it comes to the kind of work that I'll be doing since I was about to start being a teaching assistant back then. And then everybody, all the other Filipinas in the same line where we're about to begin working as domestic workers. So it was an eye opener for me. And I realized that I think there's a racism or there's that class distinction, a separation and hierarchy realities here in Hong Kong. And I have to prepare myself for that. Exactly. And sometimes you don't really know how to prepare yourself for situations like that. And not all, you have this double burden of being in a new place, in a place that people have a tendency to look down on, on people from the Philippines. And on top of that, you have the gender issue where people go, wait, what, what are you? And how did, you know, so how did Hong Kong people, how, what do you say, how did Hong Kong treat you as a trans woman then? I had this funny story because the thing is, it's not the same every day. And let's just say that I don't know if it, if 75% or 80%. So between 70 to 80% of the time, it would be like a very ordinary, regular day whereby nobody notices, nobody assumes what my gender is. Nobody tries to figure me out. But beyond that, so let's just say that 20 to 30% over the past 12 years, it's been quite weird, funny and curious. Like, I would remember one time, I was, I was on the MTR that was very, very long time ago. And there was this couple, a very young couple, I think, because they are very affectionate towards each other. Maybe local Chinese? Look, I think local Chinese. Yeah. So they were seated in front of me. And then the, I think the girlfriends, if she was a girlfriend, she was really so intent at looking at me from head to toe. So I think she, and then she would whisper to her boyfriend every now and then, and maybe she was, I couldn't help but assume that she's trying to figure out why I was quite androgynous looking. And then so I thought I might, I thought I'd rather give them a dose of their own medicine. So I started looking at them. I was staring at them. And then they felt really conscious. And then I wasn't so sure if they were supposed to get off at the, the SD station, Sinsha Tui station. So they were rushing out of Sinsha Tui station. And then I continued staring at them from inside the train. And then they were already running away. And then they look back and then they realized I was still looking at them. And then they were dashing off, you know, so that was quite a funny experience. I would even share that with some friends. And I think that that the lesson there is when they, when some of the locals or maybe some Chinese people would not be so used to seeing someone quite androgynous looking, they tried to figure them out. Another experience was when I was standing on the train as well, it was quite full. Nobody was paying attention to me that much, so to speak. It wasn't, I wasn't drawing attention. Incidentally, I have two friends who are also trans, quite tall as well. And so they came in about a couple of stations after. And then so when we met, we started saying, hi, hello to each other. And then we were chatting. And then all of a sudden, a group of women were whispering towards each other and then looking at our necks, looking at our hands and feet. And then we realized I think they are dissecting our bodies because they were trying to confirm if we are indeed feminine. So that's another example. And there were a few of those other kinds of experiences in between. So not too many, but they're quite. Can you ever get used to that to feel like you're the object of somebody's gaze to be objectified in that way that's trying to figure you out and pointing out, you know, just the pure kind of question of sexuality and why you always have to be burdened with that in your everyday living in Asia? I'd never get, yeah, I think I'd never get used to it. But because of the experience, I'm trying to compartmentalize my experience, you know, so because it will be even harder to confront them about it. I'm not the confrontative type always. I remember back in the Philippines, when something like that happens, I can somehow get away, you know, with engaging them in conversations. But this time it's different, especially even if I'd been living here for 12 years, unfortunately, I don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin. So it can still be a chance. Yeah, so I realize you never get used to it. Yeah, and that's very unfortunate. But maybe it's because of the lack of voices, right? We need to normalize and talk about it. And so when people hear our interview, for example, they get to know you as a person as opposed to seeing you as just a body. And I think that this is perpetuated by media and a lot of conversations within families and society. But let's talk about Hong Kong society and again, the trans visibility there. Because apparently there is this big Hong Kong LGBT games going on right now. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Which is this historical, isn't it? It is. So the gay games has been around for about 40 years already. And it's the first time that Hong Kong and actually Asia is hosting it. It's co-hosted with Guadalajara. So it would have happened, I think, last year. But because of the pandemic, they had to push back for another year. So it's really a huge event. And I think one challenge that it poses would be, for example, I know that you may have heard of issues surrounding trans women and sports and intersex people and sports. So that's still a challenge. Thinking that gay games is supposed to be LGBTQ inclusive, I think there's still figuring out how they can make gay games non-binary, so to speak, very fluid across genders and sexuality. So it's still a growing conversation even within the LGBTQ space. But another issue is administrative as well as social. Because a lot of trans and intersex and non-binary people from across the globe will be coming over to Hong Kong to watch and participate. And the thing is, like what you also mentioned earlier, that there's this lack of visibility. Even if we are visible, we are quite invisible also to the eyes of local and Chinese society. So because of that, when they see six foot tall or past six foot tall, faafafiness from Samoa, we're wearing flowers at the side of their ears. And then looking like women, but at the same time looking quite androgynous in their eyes, everyone's gonna wonder when they see muscular trans women that they will automatically assume to be not women or in their words not real quote unquote women, then it's going to be a challenge. It's not just the immigration point at the airport, but it will also be like the toilets, the changing rooms across the city. So it's a curious situation, hopefully nothing untoward happens to any of trans and non-binary and intersex people in the duration. But it would have been an opportunity to bring us greater visibility in terms of not just transness and otherness, but also in terms of race, ethnicity, and color and experience. I agree. Being in Hong Kong and being a mostly global, very international cosmopolitan city, we have a diversity of different groups here. But at the same time, because of the colonial past, there's been kind of a strong heavy influence of this white supremacist kind of backdrop of the zero centric way of thinking about things, right? Even though it's switched to China now, I don't know if you feel that way, but it's still that past has really influenced the way this society works in terms of how we navigate different ethnic groups. Yeah. And it's also the way that like trans activists or advocates and academics are now also pushing for the colonizing gender studies, the colonizing LGBTQI narratives. Like for example, as a trans woman, the overarching narrative towards trans people is that there is this medical model towards being trans that we have to follow. So everybody around us, like if not here in Hong Kong, in the Philippines, we get asked questions. And I know my friends from Thailand also have similar experience. We get asked medical related questions. Like, do we have real breasts? Are the breasts that we show real or are they fake? Or when do we plan to have surgeries? When do we have to plan? When do we plan to have lower surgeries, genital surgeries? How do we find your identity based on these physical traits from medical intrusions of... Yeah. They even ask us, they even ask us very interesting questions such as, do you plan to have voice lessons so that your voice will sound more feminine? So every now and then we get those. And because of that, I think it has also caused some form of social collective insecurity amongst us trans women, you know, like in Thailand and in the Philippines, there's this wave of trans beauty pageants, trans girls that constantly join beauty pageants whereby we would have black markets or those quick medical procedures to have fillers in our faces and in our bodies to conform to those expectations. And I think that has also taken away from the very unique approach, you know, towards our natural self. And it also reinforces the whole idea of feminine, right? It's enforcing kind of the heteronormative way of defining a woman. It's so ironic. And in fact, because of that, I have a very dear friend back in the Philippines and she was also an iconic beauty queen back home many years ago. She passed away. She died because of this kind of pressure. She's already very beautiful, but because of this kind of pressure, you know, to look more feminine quote unquote, you know, based on the standards of society towards trans women, she succumbed to a medical, I forgot what this exact diagnosis was, but because of the color gen and the silicone that was injected in her face and in her body, and she happened to have some pre-existing medical conditions, one of which is asthma, she didn't make it, you know, she died upon the administration of those procedures. And that happens every now and then to some trans people. And the other thing that I like to mention is that in Asia, most of the countries in Asia don't have gender recognition laws. And it's very important for us to have gender recognition laws, anti-discrimination laws, and also even same-sex union or equality union laws, because those are ways for trans people, non-binary people, to be protected, you know, and in such oppressive spaces. You verify which Asian countries do have? Yeah. Which is dear? Yes. In India, they do have gender recognition, so the third gender people here trust or recognize. So incidentally, the problem that they're facing now is towards same-sex union. So it's towards same-sex, you know, yeah. And Nepal also have gender recognition. But I think there are particular guidelines in their gender recognition that they're still struggling with. We don't have that in Hong Kong yet, but we have what we call those court cases, the court victories. So we have the Henry Seh case that was a victory early this year to be able to change gender markers in the Hong Kong ID and names without poor same-sex surgeries. But the implementing rules and regulations are yet to be clear, you know, that's pending. In the Philippines, we don't have all of those laws across the board, you know, and they seem that the Philippines is quite open to LGBT culture, but we don't have those laws. We don't have gender recognition. We don't even have gender discrimination. Yeah. And the legislators in the Philippines in particular are using their religious fundamentalist beliefs, you know, to hinder anti-discrimination protections. In Indonesia and in Malaysia, it can even be worse because there are also some religious extremists, you know, some extremists. Torture and, yeah. Well, yeah, congratulate. That very body has been, and I want to say also in the States, because the movement towards the control over a body is just out of control now. And it's just, what is the saying about our world in our kind of, almost the reversal of this, the freedom to claim our own bodies? And what is it for our responsibility and you as an academic, what can you do to kind of help change these narratives and to bring visibility to these issues so that we can have a different way of looking at, at, at buttons? I think this opportunity you gave me is one example. So whenever other podcasts or shows like this that gives us a platform to show our unique voices and to also talk about our stories, all the good and the bad of it, it's a platform of visibility for us. Companies should continue to really walk the talk, walk the talk, you know, because isn't it, they have what they call the DEI, the diversity, equality and inclusion practice. Now, if they truly have that, hopefully they will continue to push diversity, equality, equitability and inclusion and make sure that their policies are very inclusive, their spaces are inclusive. Schools should definitely do the same. You know, this is, it usually begins in the school, as schools. And, you know, when schools here in Hong Kong and in the Philippines, among other countries in Asia, have such restrictive and binary practices, you know, like this, the prescription of haircut and uniforms, that can already cause a well-being and mental health issue for a young queer and trans kid. So we have to talk about- I don't think it's just any kind of like localized issue, but the trend for a lot of the younger generation, for example, my daughter's generation, they all have this very non-binary way of looking at things in that they don't see gender as an issue. But then they have this kind of communication problem with the older generation because my generation grew up, we grew up in a binary world. So we don't really understand and we're still struggling with the terms and the spectrum of identities. And so how do we kind of bring these two together? Whereas the lower younger generation have this extreme free-for-all thought so we can do anything with our bodies we're entitled to and yet there is this larger force that's still trying to keep control over us. And so how are we going to bring it here and in our short time? I think our audience should always remember that we live in a world of diversity and part of that is gender and sexual diversity, even bodily diversity. That's why intersex people argue in what they are because they were born that way. And we also have to decolonize our beliefs when it comes to the binary and shift that towards non-binary because I think we've lived in more gender progressive and gender transgressive societies before so we can bring that back. And then we can just listen to like what you mentioned, you know, I mean like the generation today, the kids today, they have the language towards their identities. They're kind of living their truth but because our generation and those who came before us are the ones enforcing the policies and practice that's where the discord is still, you know, so they know that they know the truth is out there already and they have they can talk to each other, you know, the social media reality has also allowed them to reach out to each other and become a community and so it's a struggle for them. So I think our generation and those that came before us should listen, you know, because if we have been calling out everyone's attention for a long time so now we should continue to listen to this generation. Yeah, yeah, no thank you for that because we really need to hear it and I think that what you're doing is so important. The gender studies department at the Hong Kong University is so important because it does and it's not just attracting people who are non-binary to identify it's for people from all spectrums of life to be able to come together to talk about this in a normalized way to celebrate us as human beings and to respect each other and each other's bodies. So thank you so much Renda for all your input and sharing and I appreciate all the work you do and I know you're going to be doing a lot to break the mold. So thank you for breaking boundaries. Thank you. Thank you so much Crystal and everyone think back. Thank you.