 Take something or someone special in order to get me to come on at three o'clock my time But we've got someone today who I think it's worthy of us coming on early We've had these conversations before and I want to if we can have a scholar to come on Even if you disagree on anything just to have Someone else's insight because we said before it's not about who's right. It's about what's right? And so Dr. Brown is someone who I have I started listening to him when I was in prison as a matter of fact And I actually had no idea that he was that he was more charismatic Because of the soundness of his teaching obviously we disagree on that and so I want to just say this to you all There are some people that that that really absolutely love Dr. Michael Brown There's some folks that that don't as much There's some folks that probably like me just a little bit and then there's some folks that don't but in this Conversation we're gonna look at what we are presenting and so forth This won't be a formal debate. It won't be a contingent debate It can't be formal because I'm not that formal anyway, but that being stated I want to bring on Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown. How are you doing today, sir? Doing just great glad to be with you. Okay, and we only have guys a short amount of time So again, we'll have a Q&A after this so hold your questions to then or maybe I may see them as we're going But anyway, let's go ahead and and jump into them. And so that being case by the way I'm not sure if you were told this correctly. Dr. Brown or not, but In regards to this whole issue of cessation ism and continuation ism. I'm not a cessationist What I am though is what I'll call a biblical Continuation is and that would be kind of where our jumping off point would be and when I say a biblical continuation I believe that since the Bible people will go to First Corinthians 13 To state that these things have ceased and I've stated to my more reformed friends that that's not what that passage is saying It's not speaking of that if that's the case then so too has knowledge as well And so I'm not a continuations in that regard I mean a cessation is in that regard but a continuation is in the sense that I believe that Whatever giftings that we whatever giftings we see should look just like it looks in the Bible And so there in lies a part of my issue I believe that if a person has been gifted to speak in tongues I'm I'm associating to be an actual language for the purpose of the gospel being spread of magnifying Christ Then amen, whereas what I've seen and I start off in a charismatic church what I've seen hadn't hadn't looked like that And so what what is your definition? How would you explain what tongues are and how they should look? Sure We do know that in Acts the second chapter when the Holy Spirit fell that the believers They were spoken different languages that people heard We have no such record of that elsewhere in the New Testament or that would tell us anything Specific certainly when the Holy Spirit fell in Acts 10 and the Gentile believers began to speak in tongues That was not for the purpose of evangelizing anyone there in Acts 19 when the Holy Spirit fell and the believers from Ephesus That was not for the purpose of evangelizing these were both signs that they had received the Holy Spirit and When Paul gets into it at length in 1 Corinthians 14 He says that we're not speaking to men, but to God. He says that no one understands That it should be in public use only with an interpreter So someone has the gift of interpretation according to 1st Corinthians 12 and that we are speaking mysteries in the spirit to God So I understand tongues to be a language that God understands That it is something that he gives us as a sign of the the Holy Spirit coming upon us and that it becomes part of our Intimacy with God in prayer Paul also says that he gives that that he's poking tongues more than any of the Corinthians that he could give thanks with tongue So this is part of our expression to God in prayer if it's for public use it would be with Interpretation so a message in tongues is given and then someone who has the gift of interpretation would give that I do not see a New Testament pattern and certainly as the Holy Spirit's been poured out powerfully the last 140 150 years in these ways It is I do not see tongues primarily as earthly language is given for the purpose of evangelizing Okay, now there's a lot of things in there that that what you gave us a lot and so I do want to cover some of those things but Why do you think that there seems to be more of an explosion of The gift of tongues now as opposed to Previously prior to and I know there have been times in church history where there have been there have been tongues or someone said that There have been tongues but why why more so now as opposed to the previous 1800 years Right. Well, certainly we do see it in the New Testament to the point that Paul has to deal with the Corinthians Using tongues in an abusive way But what we also know through church history is that things have been lost I mean if we're mainly protestants here as opposed to Catholics Then we believe that there are certain fundamental aspects of justification by faith that most of that most of the Much of the church had lost We know that their references to prophecy Healing deliverance and things for several centuries after the time of Jesus and there are always examples through history of tongues Of prophecy of healing, but it just seems to be Starting the late 1800s God pouring out his spirit in a greater and greater way and what's really fascinating is that that this ties Directly in to the massive increase of the gospel going worldwide to the extent that you see this outpouring Tongues healings miracles things like that. You also see an exponential increase in the gospel going worldwide So it has had the tremendous effect of increasing the and speeding the Great Commission But it's just part of God's restoration program same with the church losing sight of its Jewish roots in many ways in recent generations There's been more of a recognition of of the Jewish roots of the faith Okay, so let me ask you this so you mentioned about I guess the different languages and so forth or what it may be So you don't see do you not hold that tongues would be an actual language? Or there are maybe an angelic or prayer language or private use of tongues Well number one, it's certainly possible that God speaks through people in foreign languages supernaturally I know of actual cases like that. It's happened to friends and colleagues of mine But I don't see that with Paul describes because he says no one understands you and you're speaking mysteries in the spirit to God So it's an actual language. Is it the language of angels first Corinthians 13 if I speak in the tongues of man or angels Is it a heavenly language or just a language that God gives us with it's not the the language of angels I don't know. It's a real language for sure as I've prayed in tongues, you know, regularly for for decades It's certainly a regular language, but can I say that it's a heavenly language? Language of angels. We don't know that Okay, so I don't know that When I when I and tell me if you if you agree or disagree when I when I look at tongues I'm obviously it's part of the gifting of the Holy Spirit And I think it's all part of the whole process that God is trying to To one working man and since he starts off with Israel, he says something in Deuteronomy 32 21 He says that he is that they have made him jealous because of them going after other guys And so he basically tells them that I'm gonna make you jealous and we see this later And so When Jesus tells the disciples that he's getting ready to leave and that the Holy Spirit is gonna come on them And he tells him that they will when the Spirit comes in that they will testify be his witnesses And then we see that and so to me would indicate that the Spirit in you will always want to testify and magnify Christ And we see the examples throughout scriptures and when he speaks with him in Acts 1 He says that when you receive the Spirit you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea Which that shouldn't be a problem and then Samaria that shouldn't be a problem But then when we get to the other most parts of the world, we don't all speak what you speak And so therein lies the issue or therein lies a reason for one of the reasons for tongues and then you also made mention of Because these tongues are out someone speaking it gave validity to see that it was not just The Jews who would speak it but then we see and what we we presumed that it was In Samaria that the Samaritan spoke in tongues Since Simon wanted to purchase that gift and we know it in Acts 10 and then also in Acts 19 So it kind of gave validity to every people group receiving the Holy Spirit and keeping with what Joel said and then what was also reiterated in Acts 2 that his spirit is being poured out on all flesh So it's not just Israel and then it seems like Paul comes around full circle in Romans 9 to 11 that he has this This issue this burden for Israel Not all but but some many of them are not coming to the gospel like they were before But he says there's a partial hardening and a super until the until the the fullness of God comes and that it seems to me That he'll use the Gentiles To make them jealous and I said all I'd say this that when we look at how it's used or the how the Holy Spirit Shows up in these tongues these languages in Acts Because acts is the only place in the Bible where we actually witness someone or see someone actually speaking in tongues We don't see them Where the person believes in the long long ending or short ending of mark 16 we don't see it's mentioned We don't see tongues being used in 1st Corinthians 12 or 14 It's mentioned but only in Acts and so it would seem to me that the example That we have in Acts of them actually speaking languages and then also magnifying God and giving validity That that would be the reason would it be why would have why would there be a reason to? Kind of turn away from that once we get to 1st Corinthians 12 or 14 Well, just like we don't always have the sound like the blowing of a violent wind Just like we don't always have tongues of fire sitting over people This this was a specific event in inaugural event That is is not supposed to be repeated in in that same way, but let's go back to Acts 1a It doesn't say you'll receive tongues for the purpose of evangelism It says you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you and you'll be my witnesses So they were witnesses because they were empowered by the Spirit and with that to work miracles So they could point to the miracles that happened as evidence of the resurrection But you don't have a single example in the rest of Acts ever where where tongues was associated with evangelism Nor does Paul make any reference to it In fact, when he does give the explicit teaching because this is this is where he now gets into the teaching the the prescriptive Doctrine about what tongues is for and how we use it. He makes clear I'd rather speak five words to you and in a language you understand in 5,000 words in an unknown tongue that again No one understands you that you're speaking mysteries in your spirit to God so why would I be praying in tongues in a foreign language that's meant for evangelism if no one understands it and if I'm speaking mysteries in the spirit to God and What what it's also saying is the hundreds of millions around the world who've been baptized in the spirit speaking tongues Men have never heard of it. I know of Baptist prayer groups where the women were praying and the Holy Spirit fell in them again Speaking tongues. They didn't even know what it was it would be all saying they're having a counterfeit experience and Since I can only count a few instances that I know of personally Where someone spoke in tongues and that was how they evangelized an unreached people, you know Otherwise through through church history. This has never been the method so you would think there'd be more evidence a in the Bible and be through church history that This was a method of evangelism instead people would go to a foreign land and learn the language and learn the culture and You know the early Pentecostals thought okay, we must be speaking these foreign languages We'll just go to China or India and start speaking in tongues Only to find out that people had no idea what they were saying and they had to learn the language culture But because they were empowered by the spirit they were used as witnesses So I I would turn this around and say That acts is descriptive and it does give us foundations But then we have to see how to live this out as it's prescribed in the actual teaching So why would Paul say no one understands you and if tongues are for evangelism primarily Why would he say that you're speaking mysteries to God and I would rather speak five Words in the language you understand in five thousand words in a tongue Meaning that nobody there would understand it So it would seem that it's it's very different. That's why some refer to it as a prayer language, etc I just be curious. Yeah, I just be curious to know The answers to those two questions one. Why don't we see tongues used as evangelism for the nations anywhere? in the in the Bible outside of that that first instance and to What would you say? My experience the experience of Pentecostal's Charismatics around the world by the hundreds of millions Do you think it's just gibberish that we're making up? Well, I would say this I would say that because of the two reasons Because I also believe this What's not in scripture that we also we know it had had to happen is if we've got people Who are going to evangelize the world this this church is exploding on the scene But it's exploding in places where they don't speak the same way the same language So there has to be some sort of way that these people are actually given the gospel to these people And I think the first example is what we see an axe to and we see We see them actually speaking to them in their own languages and then there's also what we see in axe 10 19 also and presumably also acts eight is that it's given validity that others other non-jews Are also receiving it and so I would see it was the same it was the same same language in acts eight There's no validity that was needed and they could have Peter could have preached in Greek and most everybody would have understood No, I was when I'm saying is that an Aramaic in other words? It wasn't a matter of reaching there were common languages that could have been spoken among all the Jews there Right, and and it's very easy to reach your people. It's never been reached All you need is one person who's bilingual and they translate So I mean it happens to this day around the world. You just need one person from a group So I guess what I'm saying is that in act well not in acts eight I'm not saying that they are that they are evangelizing to them in a different language That's not what I'm saying in acts eight or some except because presumably the likelihood is that their languages with them is common But the point is though that Now the the Jews who have the Holy Spirit would also see that Samaritans have the Holy Spirit They would also see that Gentiles have the Holy Spirit So now we've got every people group having the Holy Spirit so it's valid that it's not just us Yeah, it's okay that you guys have placed your faith in Christ's Messiah, but at least we have the Holy Spirit You wouldn't have that they're all there wouldn't be any any second class 100% so the tongues the speaking in tongues was a sign that the Holy Spirit came on them And it was not for the purpose of evangelism in acts eight acts 10 acts 19 But in acts two it was the very first time that we see it Wasn't for evangelism it wasn't for evangelism It was as a sign and in other words There were plenty of ways to communicate to all the Jews there that everybody would understand There was Peter get ups when Peter preaches just remember when he preaches everybody understands him Right because he could speak either Aramaic and they would all know it or Greek and they would all know it So this was as a sign that Galalans were speaking languages They didn't know it wasn't to reach people that they couldn't reach because Peter gets up and preaches to them Wouldn't that be because the one the one spiritual gift if this isn't an example of it The one spiritual gift that we never see in the Bible We may hear it talked about but we never see is the gift of interpretation and so to me This is this is how I take it That on that day there are people who are hearing hearing them speak in different languages They spoke different languages and so they speak to these people They give them the gospel in this different language and then the issue is since the word for For interpretation just simply means to explain well then so now we got Peter so that everybody so that one the people that are speaking it Can understand what they're saying or that people are speaking it absolutely know what they're saying the people that are hearing it But then what about the people who have no idea what these people What what Peter and what John and what and what what Thomas and all and Bartholome what they're saying Well, then now Peter gets up and tells them exactly so now Peter gives interpretation Otherwise, we don't have one example of anyone in the Bible ever giving ever using the gift of interpretation here talked about But we never see anyone actually using that gift And so here we've got on the day of Pentecost an example of one how tongues are to be used and then to an example of Interpretation so is there a reason for me to believe that that's not the case It's sure the scripture. Yeah, number one interpretation. It's not explanation That there's a two different things those would be different words that would be used That's the first if I have an interpreter I don't need an explainer. I need an interpreter if I'm preaching a message, right? I don't need them to explain what I'm saying I needed them to interpret what I'm saying But the point is that Peter preached everybody can understand you had things called lingua franca, right? Mm-hmm. So a lingua franca would be a commonly spoken language for for in the ancient Near-eastern world it was a cadian and you if you wanted to correspond internationally everybody would use a cadian a certain point It shifted to Aramaic. So this would be a lingua franca for Jews in different parts of the world. They would speak Aramaic, right? Middle-middle many Middle Eastern people became Arabic after that Etc. So when Peter got up and preached He just preached a message that everybody can understand the the point was they didn't all have supernatural Hearing and interpretation of his message. They simply heard Peter preaching in a language They all understood either Greek or Aramaic somewhat or your Hebrew But most likely either Greek or Aramaic everyone could hear it They were they were Jews they're introduced them from around the world They had their native languages, but there were certain languages that were commonly spoken The bottom line is Peter preached and everybody heard it You did not need him to speak and have 20 or 30 or 50 different languages with interpretation The the sign was that people who didn't speak these foreign languages were speaking it and now Peter preached in a way Everybody could hear so it wasn't for evangelism, but then once again I want to reiterate that you agree in acts 8 x 10 x 19 tongues were simply a sign That the Holy Spirit was given and then when Paul describes tongues at length He says no one understands you you're speaking mysteries in your spirit to God He says not a syllable about evangelism there or that being the purpose of evangelism Nor do we know in church history that this was just the common thing that everyone went to foreign nations And spoke new languages and and again as as God has poured out the spirit of fresh and restored many of the gifts Healing miracles they all have flowed out of baptism of the spirit and speaking tongues but okay, so my question though is because now when I when I When I look up in in the different lexicons just just for just for verification When I like for example to be dag when I look up interpretation It's telling me to explain to and to to to make it clear And so but here we've got because it could not be that every that all the disciples While all the apostles were equipped On their own to go into the far reaches of the world and then speak to them In their languages there had to be some sort of gifting and we see that and so let's say for example But hang on we don't we don't see ever there's not one example ever not a syllable after the initial Outburst and everybody comes of anybody speaking supernaturally in a foreign language not Peter Not anybody in the book of acts or in the entire new testament There's not one example of that for evangelism ever Where as well explicitly says you're when you pray in tongues Nobody understands you you're speaking mysteries in your spirit to God you're being thanks to God But in public speak the words they understand and and tongues is for your own communion with God Okay, just give me one example Where tongues explicitly the new testament says that these people used a newly given foreign language to reach people Outside their language. There's not one in the new testament. I want to I want to hold that I want to I'm going to hold you to that standard as we as we go into first Corinthians But again if Jesus tells the disciples That when you receive the spirit he says that you are going to testify of me And then in acts one he says that you shall receive the Holy Spirit and you shall be my witness the same word And then we see them actually testifying of him In acts two. So we've got him saying what's going to happen. We've got them doing it Uh in acts two now. We don't know what happened On the subsequent days after that when they went to other places But but but hang on that acts two when they testify it's in a language everybody understands It's not tongues What because Peter Peter now preaches and everybody understands Peter Because he's preaching a common language that the visiting Jews would understand and then he explicitly says in acts five We are witnesses. We are testifying with our words not with foreign tongues And it would be easy for you to go anywhere in the world and share the gospel anywhere Because there were people who were bilingual around the world if he spoke if If they spoke in like well, it's clearly spoken under languages on that in acts two It's clearly they spoke another language, right? And so initially right and the crowds come And so he gets up and says hey, they're not drunk This is what Joel's prophet. He's now speaking in either greek or aramaic. So everybody understands him. There's no more There's no speaking in tongues now My point is though that when they were speaking in these languages and there was confusion There was commotion. What in the world are they're saying now the mockers come But everyone else who made either either for the benefit of the mockers or for the people that weren't mocking They hear this Since the since these spiritual gifts are for the purpose of building up the body There are other people that also may want to hear. So what does Peter Peter do? He explains not just to the people who are hearing and of course, I believe they also know what it is They're saying so they know what they're saying the people that are hearing what they're saying But the people who don't know what they were speaking to these other people Now they also get the word as well and then the body is added to that's not what happens though They hear the crowd hears the praises of god in their own language. That's what the disciples are doing They're praising god in new languages Peter explains the phenomenon, right? He doesn't explain what they were saying. He explains the phenomenon Right Peter somebody says men of Judea and all of you living there should let be known to give heat to my words These men are not drunk as you suppose for it's only the third hour of the day But this was what was spoken through the prophet Joel and in the last day as I'll pour out my spirit So he explains the phenomenon This is the outpouring the spirit and then he preaches Jesus then he testifies He doesn't say what they were saying was they were preaching the gospel No, they were the the people the crowds heard them praising god In their own language, right and now Peter says Explains what was happening that was the outpouring the Holy Spirit and then as a witness he preaches Jesus and he testifies Right, so that's what happens Well and see this where I would I would differ it seems to me that he's saying what happens and is telling them What he what what's being said because they don't know There's no way for the people who don't speak the language is that that that the apostles are speaking to For them to know and so for me at the very least at the very first time that we see Let tongues languages being spoken They're doing so to give to give the gospel and then we've got it seems to me Peter giving Some sort of interpretation now If that's if but if i'm wrong and you're correct Then we also have an example where well we have an issue where we don't have not one example of this Spiritual gift being if we have we have an example of every other spiritual gift But then that means that there's no example in the bible of the gift of interpretation being used Well, I would question What when we talk about so each gift being used in the bible, right? So for example word of wisdom word of knowledge in the new testament You could there'd be a debate about you know What would be an example of that or not or gift of faith and operation in the new testament as distinct from Gifts of healing and miracles. There'd be some debate over it. But but here's the thing I'm a hundred percent sure scripturally that that's not the gift of interpretation And acts one because it acts two because it does not say they were preaching the gospel They were simply praising god and the people all heard right? So the mockers had a wrong attitude. They didn't get what was going on But everybody could hear in their own language So you didn't need interpretation for them because it was in all the different languages So the the people were hearing it in their own languages Peter gives an interpretation of what happened. That's what he does explicitly. They're not drunk This is what was spoken by jill. But then he doesn't say now. Let me interpret what they were saying He says no This is a sign that Jesus has ascended to heaven and sent the spirit and now I'm going to preach the gospel for you I don't and I don't I don't mean to say I don't think but see I don't think he needed to say, okay Uh, or it had to be specifically said that this is exactly what they said Rather than just going into saying what it's what he's saying because he also gives a little bit of a sermonette after that But now you you you make this statement though and this is this is where I I want to see if if uh, we keep a level of a level of consistency when you say that There's only one time Of this happening used for evangelism Well, then you you previously stated that Uh, the gift of tongues is uh, see I don't take first Corinthians 14 to to be um Paul saying that they should be edifying themselves But then I also don't see Where in the bible if we're going to say that these tongues are also can be a prayer language or heaven language because again If we use that same standard, we don't have one example of that We don't have one example of of a private use of tongues And so if we're going to use that same standard that you're using in x2 How do you you have paul you have paul saying I speak in tongues more than all of you But we didn't he doesn't speak in tongues privately Well, of course, okay number number one He doesn't have to say what he does in private, but it's he's explicit I speak in tongues more than all of you But in public I would rather speak five words that you understand than 5 000 words in an unknown tongue So he's telling you in private. I speak in tongues more than all of you. Okay, and he said Yeah, I mean there's the only possible way to understand that Well, okay before we go there before we go there in chapter 12 Because now paul paul is is a first Corinthians paul is having this discussion Uh, about obviously uniting by that's kind of the theme of a first Corinthians of his letter to the to the church And then when he gets to 12 he says I'll just put on the screen says now concerning spiritual gifts, brother I do not want you to be ignorant or unaware. So there's something that they are doing In relation to spiritual gifts or pneumatico spiritual things And he says, you know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols However, you were led therefore. I'm making on you that no one's speaking using this word alone So he sucks apparently something that's coming out of their mouth that no one's speaking by the spirit of jesus I mean by god ever says that jesus occurs. Well, who's saying that it seems to me apparently someone is maybe some Multiple somebodies and no one also can say that jesus lord except by the holy spirit So we've got something that's happening here. It seems to be something with regards to them speaking But then he goes on to say Speaking about the verity varieties of gifts and so forth But in verse 70 says but to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good And so he's letting us know and all throughout when we talk about these spiritual gifts They keep telling us we keep reminding We remind it that these giftings are for the benefit of others And so then if I get to 14 And then now someone says that because paul because paul is writing This portion of the letter at the very least to offer some sort of rebuke with some sort of correction They're doing something in error Well, then if he's not correcting them in an erroneous way And I think the erroneous way that that he's that he's correcting them has to be That you all are speaking that you're saying something some words that you have no idea what you're saying Only god knows what you're saying And so and all you're doing is edifying yourself because what we don't have again There is no example of a private prayer language before I don't interpret paul is saying that I I speak in these languages more than he has to be something private I think since paul is a missionary and paul is dealing with churches all over He's got to know different languages and so I think that's what he's reiterating But but to say that it's a private language. Well, then I don't I don't see that again There is well, tell you what let's let's just let's how about I'll start reading now First Corinthians 1414 just because you wanted to make sure as as you said beforehand that you gave me the bulk of the time to Okay to respond here, right? Okay, so I mean I I differ with every single point you made as a brother in the lord with a smile But I differ with every every point you made. I just didn't want to interrupt as you were going Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gives to the spirit Especially prophecy for anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to god So he's saying this is this is the reality Okay, if anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to god He he should have said according to you those of you who are abusing tongues are using it to speak to god Whereas you should be using it to speak to people. No, he says anyone who speaks in a tongue Does not speak to people but to god indeed No one understands them. They utter mysteries by the spirit not gibberish Not just words. They don't understand but they utter mysteries by the spirit when they speak in tongues That's not evangelism But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strength and courage and comfort Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves But the one who prophesies edifies the church Edifying yourself has its place jude verse 20 Edify yourself build yourself up in the most holy faith praying in the holy spirit So jude is telling you to edify yourself because when I spend hours in prayer alone with god Much of that time praying in tongues. I now come out able to serve you and minister to you On the other hand, if I get up and do it publicly in front of everybody I'm only edifying myself and not helping anyone I would like every one of you to speak in tongues But I would rather have you prophesy the one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues Unless someone interprets so that the church may be edified Now brothers and sisters if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you? And this I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction We should have said I'm going to bring you great benefit speaking in tongues because this way all of you from different backgrounds Could understand and said he said it won't it won't do any good. Why because it's private is to god I've got to bring you instead revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction And then he goes on with this further and and and he says Would just skip down verse 13 for this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say For if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays. He doesn't say it's gibberish. He doesn't say it's evangelism But my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit pray right. This is praying not preach I will pray with my spirits. I'll pray in tongues I'll also pray with my understanding. I will sing with my spirit sing in tongues Why because I'm worshiping god, but I'll also sing with my understanding. Otherwise when you are praising god in the spirit That's tongues. That's not evangelism there, right? When you are praising god in the spirit How can someone else who's now in the position? I'm inquire say mentor thanksgiving So you're giving thanks to god on the spirit since they don't know what you're saying You're giving thanks well enough. So you are praising god giving thanks well enough in a tongue But no one else is edified and then verse 18. I thank god that I speak in tongues more than all of you He doesn't say I thank god that I speak in more different languages than all of you, but that I speak in tongues More than all of you, but in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than 10 000 words in a tongue. That's any tongue Right, so what's he saying? I speak in tongues not more languages than you but I speak in tongues That this tongues that I'm talking about that is private that is to god that is edifying me As as a believer I do that more than any of you, but when it comes to church service of gathering I'd rather just speak in a language you understand than than 10 000 words in in in tongues Okay, so here here's why I know you disagree with everything. I disagree with everything you just said Here's why one if we go back up to one Remember paul is paul has just stated that I do not want you to be ignorant I want you to know and and the word that's that's used for ignorant is also the same word that's used I want you to know what you're saying as we get down to verse 13 But something that he says in verse one, uh, which is also he reiterates that or iterates that in verse five He says pursue love yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts or the greek word. I'm the matika But especially that you may prophesy and he used this phrase here malonday hinted a prop with me So this we got a hint of clause here. So but more rather in order that you would Prophecy and obviously the word prophecy or prophesy can be either a foretelling or a foretelling It's just to give a revelation of God. He goes on to say it again in verse five. He says Uh, where's it at? Where's my number? Okay. Now? I wish that you all spoke in tongues with and I'm taking the word tongues to be actual languages He says I rather you speaking these languages and he says it again And he uses he uses the same phrase the exact same phrase that we see in or the same two words that we see in acts to uh, where we see a a a a Lalon or in this case la lane low size So we're going to see these two words show up every time that he speaks about tongues So it's not he's talking about the exact same sort of tongues But he says I would rather that you would I wish you all speaking tongues In order that he says it again malonday hinted a prophecy or malonday hinted a prophecy In order that you would prophesy. So I want you to speak in these languages in order that you would bring a revelation Well, you're not bringing a revelation to yourself if you don't know what what what self just said Which is why he says and I think what paul is rebuking because if paul is not rebuking the misuse of tongues Then what is he writing about? What is he saying? I don't want you to be ignorant of what is it That they're being ignorant of and I think it's it's the contrast of this this singular tongue versus a plural tongue the contrast of a A language ecstatic language that no one knows only god knows and this is I think this idiomatic that only god knows what you're saying You're just as he goes on the safe to the the very same people that are doing this He says to them. You are just speaking into the air. I want you to do so in course in verses three Just to say they utter mysteries by the spirit Yeah, this is this is a mystery. No, no one knows what you're saying and what's interesting is this Oh, what hang on what hang on it's not a mystery by the spirit if I'm just going blah blah blah blah blah blah blah That's gibberish. It is by the spirit is I don't think that's the point though. Dr. Brown I think it's not a mystery by the spirit, sir. Come on. That's they can't be what the greek says It can't be what it says It's a okay. So the issue would be to god, right? You don't speak to people but to god Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm not speaking to god either What what spiritual gift do we ever use for ourself or to god? Aren't they we we've got several passages and and even and even in this passage in verses three four five six 12 17 26 of this passage first also chapter 12 7 also first peter Four also Ephesians four that tells us that these these giftings are for the body We never see our giftings for others and I would disagree on jude 20 now there might be some disagreement but but As I I had I had a friend on the other day who was who's a greek grammarian and and he takes this as to be He takes this as to be Not you edifying yourself but coming in the in the southern way. Hey y'all y'all edify building up each other But he didn't say in jude 20 that that do so by praying in tongues He just says pray in the spirit and so we pray in the spirit and paul says here You're uttering mysteries by the spirit But the point is and I think most greek grammarians would differ with your friend there Edifying yourself by praying in the spirit however you define praying in the spirit is a good thing Because you are now built up to help others But paul's whole point is the public purpose of tongues is to edify everyone therefore it comes with interpretation Otherwise keep it to yourself. So there is a public purpose to it, but Just to Again, I want to push that uttering mysteries by the spirit and speaking to god cannot be Gibberish I also would just like to ask you with with all respect is I've got the greek in front of me as well, all right Verse five. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues But I would rather have you prophesy you translated differently. Can you point to me to a major translation? Respect your translation that translates verse five the same way that you did Well without going to make translation, let's just you and I go through the greek right here What what would malon mean and what does uh, we got a post positive nd in day So what would malon de henna prof tuete mean? How how would we break that down? Well, go ahead and go ahead and break it down and then tell me if it's so self-evident Why not a single major translation agrees with you? Why in order to make your point which to me is is is really forcing what the text says I think you have to differ with all greek scholars uh, right So I'm here. I'm just looking but I would say aren't there times where dr. Brown where uh out of out of just tradition We might carry something in the english translation and then someone might say okay the hebrew This is kind of for example for example proverbs 226. I this one my favorite examples Train up a child in the way that we should go when he's old. He's not depart and the word that's used there is um I'll pin the alpente Alpente d'erco, which is upon the mouth of as well I'm obviously not telling you anything that you don't know But upon the mouth of his way. Well, that's not what it says in english And so it kind of leads to the to the belief that uh, if you train him the way that he should go Which a lot of parents do then how come this kid when he gets older when this kid gets older He he does depart versus if we read it how the hebrew says If you train a child upon according to the bent of his way upon the mouth of his way this idiom According to the way that he wants to go Well, yeah, if he wants to be messy if he wants to be slobbish or what have you And when he's 50 or 60 or 70 he will not depart and so the english Doesn't kind of give the best understanding because out of tradition upon the way he should go It's not tradition. I would differ with with with the way you're reading the heber there But in other words, I the the whole point is that when you trade the person rightly That if they've lived like this that even in old age They'll stay with it. It's not saying they'll never depart from it But even in old age, they won't stray from it if they've been if they've been trained and right and raised rightly and that's a general proposition So you're just The the and I I believe it's been translated correctly just as a hebra scholar But but here's the point You would have to agree then that every english translation And I would dare say every major grammatical breakdown In academic commentaries of the greek new testament Differs with your view of first Corinthians 14 5 I would with all respect trust the world of greek scholarship and a wide range of scholars from Mainly non charismatic backgrounds before I would trust your reading of it Okay, well then then then Because for lack of time We don't have the ability to go in and me to pull up the different greek grammars and so forth from the other From the scholars, but let me ask you this how would you interpret this passage then? How would you take the malan day in a proper way? How would you because the greek is the greek? And so how would you how would you take those words malan day in a proper way? It's yeah The way it's translated the niv for example Is fine. I would like every word you speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy that that says it well enough But I don't really see that again. I didn't I didn't catch that say that again Yeah, I just read it from the here. I'll read it from the esv Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more To prophesy right or or the the isv I wish that all of you could speak in tongues or foreign languages So they at least get you there, you know, you'd be happy with that but especially that you could prophesy or The any the net I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy They don't say in order that you can prophesy but even more as separate from tongues Okay, because tongues you're speaking to god and nobody understands you you're uttering mysteries in your spirit You're giving thanks to god Etc. Etc. You're doing all these things between you and god and paul speaks In tongues more than anybody in his private life, but in public I'd rather you prophesy now True now just now i'm not going to go ahead and and and say this now again We don't for lack of times. I want to go ahead and get through because I know we have to move quickly, but You still haven't told me how how you would parse this This malan day henna prof twitty How you would parse this rather than going to the english because there are passages And every scholar would say that there are some passages in the english that just don't Clarify what the greek is trying to say and sometimes we carry for some things just out of tradition But I would like to see maybe sometime in the future like we'll go ahead and move on But this well, I would just say but but that you would prophesy inna there. I would just understand to be that Not in not an order that but just meaning that which is certainly a valid reason which we go though. So I wish that But but rather that you would prophesy so the rather that so he seemed to say this is just me again And and again, I don't I don't I'm not I didn't just one day just because I started on the same side as you That I I was I was a tongue talking Believer and then when I look at the scripture and then as I go through Uh as learning the greek and I I'm not a I'm not a greek grammarian And so I will grant that but others that I've been around Have stated this is this is how you take this how you break this down. This is what this is saying And so but it also keeps things in context how I'm how I'm and how I just explained it that paul is If he's not rebuking or he's not correcting the misuse of tongues Well, then what is he writing and say that they're ignorant about What is correcting the misuse because they're having their meetings and all publicly delivering messages and tongues which nobody understands Because it wasn't an earthly language. It wasn't a foreign language It was supposed to be reserved for them speaking to god unless they had an interpreter But you still haven't explained how paul could say you are uttering mysteries By the spirit how you are giving thanks to god how you are speaking to god if it's just gibberish If I if I said if I said during this whole time dr brown I'm not saying this but if I said I have no idea what you're saying. You're just saying just a bunch of mysteries The same thing I use the word hang on mysteries by the spirit Could you say if if if you have no idea what I'm saying All right mysteries by the spirit and I'm speaking to god and giving thanks to god Right and praying to god, but it's gibberish. It can't be gibberish and be a mystery by the spirit Talking to god praying to god Here's why it could be because paul goes on and he says because paul's the one that says that you're just All you're doing is just speaking to the air But he also he also commends them. He says that since you were zealous for me when I spoke in tongues Some people news flash guys. I use speaking tongues when I spoke in tongues And in terms of my spirit in terms of my heart it was genuine and I thought that it was what I was supposed to do I was overcome with this this emotion But the issue that I had though was I didn't want I didn't know what I was saying And so so just what I was doing was what they were doing. I had a genuine heart I was in the spirit and I said some things. I mean, isn't it possible to be Were you hang on? Were you uttering mysteries by the holy spirit? Okay? Let's go back to it if he says a verse Okay, so let's go back to verse put on the screen verse 2 for the one who speaks in a tongue Does not speak to god. I mean does not speak to men which I think we're supposed to be doing too But to god for no one understands but in his spirit And now there are some that there are some I won't lean this way But someone says but by his spirit or in his spirit I did have one a friend who's a grammarian and he says that no it's not by it shouldn't be his spirit But it should be by the spirit. Although I've seen another grammarian said that it is his spirit I'll just leave it as by the spirit. So some take this this portion here in verse 2 Is that it was in his spirit? So I'm taking this by the spirit. I don't know But let's just let's let's go with what you're saying that is by the spirit He speaks mystery but or if we're going to use that is this also in the spirit In other words, the person can be in the spirit and still make a mistake Because what paul says later on there's this zealousness for The things of god and so what does paul say they're not mystery but they're not mysteries, sir I mean, it's you have to read a remarkable just with all respect And I do hope you speak in tongues again because it's a gift that god gave you that you shouldn't Cast out you'll be all the better for it as you're praying tongues and communing with god and tongues and much more able to minister To people publicly through it Mysteries is a positive thing in currencies in Corinthians. Okay. It's it's not a negative It's a positive if I'm just speaking gibberish. It's not a mystery. I'm not speaking to god I'm not speaking of mystery. I'm not speaking by the spirit and paul later on says i'm giving thanks Well enough in tongues, but somebody else doesn't understand it and my own mind is unfruitful So the very thing you experience is what paul suggests So you should pray for interpretation so that you understand what you're saying And then if you deliver a message in public, don't do it unless there is interpretation Okay, I would just really press it cat gibberish is not a mystery gibberish is gibberish Okay, before I go blah blah blah is not a mystery. It's certainly not by the spirit It's certainly not giving that if I say oh god blah blah blah blah. I'm not giving thanks. Well I'm not and I'm not giving thanks by the spirit or speaking to god. I'm speaking gibberish paul would not have described gibberish like that. I'm quite sure well I think you would but before I go to verse 13 you say that I should speak in tongues Why what what would speaking in tongues do for me? It would draw you closer to god and enable you to better serve the body Okay, so two questions about that one Where does the bible ever say that this is how we draw closer to god and then two Since and I believe you agree that that not everyone speaks in tongues. So now we've got Uh a second class citizen in the body because if all don't speak in tongues And if these tongues edify us then I can't edify myself the way you do I can't be edified. I can't be built if I can't grow Like you do and is is is that what what what the bible is teaching that there are those that will be able to be edified more So than the others Well first I said, I hope you do because you said that you had an experience I hope it was real and if it was real and then god gave it to you shouldn't despise it Secondly paul does explicitly say that the one who prays in tongues edifies himself And we know that whether it's tongues or not that that praying in the spirit Which to me includes tongues, but that's not only tongues is the way that we edify ourselves Also, we all have different gifts and different ways of drawing near to god And and different ways of ministering to others and god is diverse in the gifts and we don't compare ourselves one to another Uh, you could argue that tongues is for everyone in terms of a private prayer language But delivering messages in public is only those gifted to do so Or you could say not everyone speaks in tongues And there are many different ways that you can pray in the spirit and draw close to god This is one of them We shouldn't despise it I can say for sure that some of the most significant things god's done in my life Some of the most significant things he's spoken to me moved on me to write Moved on me to pray for the good of the body for the glorification of jesus and public Have come out of extended times being moved down by the spirit to pray in tongues alone I know my i'm in a hundred percent sure of what what the word says I have no question or doubt about I tried to get away from this the late 70s early 80s I tried to to to leave the charismatic world and deny my pentecostal roots I I read the books like the modern tongues movement by robert gromacky or or more broadly bb warfields counterfeit miracles I made the effort to it, but I had to admit that the text was too clear to me So first it was the word that drew me back and secondly As I pressed into god the experience of the spirit I've had has been beautiful and and real And enabled me to serve and edify many more people So okay, so Other than the the the passage that that that we debate that we disagree on About paul you're taking that when paul says I speak in these tongues more than all You take that as him saying That is him speaking in private I would have thought that if he would have said he would said it in private but But other than that, we don't have an example Of someone using these languages as a private prayer Of language we don't have anyone doing so We don't have anyone speaking in tongues to themselves and so forth And so if absent that why would there be any justification of doing so even even if in the examples Of in acts two in acts eight. Well, I'm thinking acts eight acts 10 acts 19 It's all public. It's all everyone is hearing it We and and before you get to chapter 14 There'd be no basis to think that anything is private But when we get to the first 14 now all of a sudden there's a switch that says now it's private So most people experience that right number one Okay, show me one example Of anybody in the new testament praying in private the words that they used We don't know what people did in private So the fact, you know, it's like saying did they you know, give me one example of them talking about a UFO So the argument from silence is always a weak argument to start number one number two But it's not we don't have recorded what people prayed in in prior We recorded examples of that peter went in private and prayed these words We don't know what he's saying when he prayed in private But did you not just use the same example you said that Though we have and of course we actually have at least one example Of someone using tongues to to evangelize in x2 At least we've got the one example But now you're saying though an argument from silence though But when I use the arguments and wasn't from an argument of silence I'm actually using x2 as an example We don't have but I'm saying x x2 doesn't work because x2 was a way to draw the crowds And then peter preached in a language. They're all understood We don't have it used where they went out and evangelized in tongues So your argument still does not exist and most of the time people are filled with most of the time people are filled with the spirit We in x8 10 19 It is a public thing it happens like this to this day people fill with the spirit publicly everyone hears it One says wow you've been filled with the spirit. That's glorious And then now they live it out in their private lives, but we have a whole chapter of explicit Data which with all respect and by the way, this was much feistier than I expected I'm happy to do it. No, no, no, that's good. I'm I'm good with it I just don't mean to be disrespectful to you to disagree so categorically I I didn't know it would be this feisty, but if you're good with it, I'm good. We do this as brothers And this is this is healthy dialogue within the body We we can love jesus and lay down our lives together for the gospel Dr Brian let me say this also because there might be someone that I've said this before A lot of my christian friends the friends that I know are christian are Pentecostal and charismatic, uh, whether you're pentecostal, charismatic, whether you are not whether you're baptist, Methodist church of god and christ to god whatever um The quality that we need to have in common is that we place our faith in christ and so Uh, none of this stuff will leave lead us away from christ But this is again a healthy debate. I've held a discussion so forth So I'm I'm fine with but I want to make sure the people in the in the uh in the chest And we're we're good. I I get I get a more a deeper appreciation from someone when we when we spar like this, but I'm only responding to the degree of of the strength of your argument presenting mine But I just want to push back on two other things. Okay I do not downplay that we have so much About tongues laid out more than any of the other gifts in first christians 14 So to me it is explicit in terms of what he's saying and when you say he doesn't say it's in private I I say does I thank god that I speak in tongues more than all of you, but in the church So in public around other people I would rather speak five intelligible words to instructor this than 10 000 words in a tongue So when he says I speak in tongues more than all of you, it's not in the church. It's when I'm alone But here's why this doesn't make sense though This is why this doesn't make sense Because if I am because there'd be no need for me to speak in in languages If I want to magnify christ to people that speak the same language in the body But I should be using this to speak to people who don't know the gospel So I would use this publicly outside of the body, but in the body I'd rather speak a word that makes sense But what about visitors? What about people there who are who don't speak the language? What about them? again When I speak what I'm speaking these languages It's going to be outside to to non-believers in their in their language And so it makes it it makes perfect sense All right, all right, so right I'm glad you're headed in I would say there. All right, so I'm I'm looking at the clock and I'm Coming towards the end of my hour here, but just to throw this back at you. All right Since you say you're a biblical continuationist, right? And since we know they're analysts documented healings miracles taking place all over the world You know abundant. I'm just listening on audio to Craig Keener's short of on miracles today I mean documented miracle after miracle after miracle Prophecy gift of prophecy operating so widely so much I've seen it over the decades accurate prophetic words for people and just extraordinary and at times had words given to me That were incredibly accurate Etc Why is your version of tongues almost unheard of in in missions work around the world? missions work through history Why is it that the vast majority of people that are used by God and healing miracles, etc? Speak in tongues as well, which you're saying is nothing It's just gibberish that I've been speaking gibberish for thousands of hours over the decades before the Lord Where is the gift that you speak of? It's it's hardly there Whereas everything else seems to be there in abundance Well, I would say this it it wouldn't matter what if if if a billion people came back and said This is what we're testifying to because we now have Thousands upon thousands of Muslims and Hindus and so forth saying this is the exact same gift And by the way, it sounds the same way, which also made me wonder Why do all of us English speaking people who when we get in church and we speak in tongues? Why does us over here in church of God in Christ and this Baptist church and a sin was a God and so forth This Pentecostal over here this charismatic over here Why does all of our church all of our tongues sound the same and then what's the point of it? Well, that's that would be that that's the very answer though That's the very answer because it's the same language. That's why people I pray for people around the world and they've never heard of tongues that begin speaking tongues It's like same language. Where did it all come from? Well, so when they when I if I go to I don't know you name the country I'm a missionary and I go speaking in tongues Then my question is what what what is that doing for me and for them other than nothing What is it doing because I don't I don't see what it what it what it does and I'm looking for a text Not someone's experience But someone's text and so if we're going to go by the text give me a text to where I'm going to say, okay You know what this text Let's me see that this is how how this works when we don't we don't we never see because what you just described We never also never see that in the scriptures as well, right? No, what we do what we do we see the people receiving the spirit speaking in tongues There's nothing to do with evangelism and the rest of the book of acts and we see paul talking about his own practice and practices there But I'm just curious so my last question that Aside from you know, it's a big thing for you to say hundreds of millions of people who love jesus Who asked the lord for the holy spirit jesus said if you asked for the holy spirit Um, if you asked for fish, he won't give you a snake if he asked for bread. He won't give you a stone, right? So they've asked for the holy spirit. They began speaking times. They never heard of this No one told them about it. So you're saying they're all all somehow gotten the same mass hallucination error gibberish thing around the world hundreds of millions of people unrelated unconnected Uh, that's all happened. I mean, that's that's a big jump. But where is your gift? Operating give me give me just 10 examples that you know today Of people who spoke in tongues and god used them to reach people in that foreign language Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't use the the gift of tongues I don't know that that most missionaries are actually using the gift of tongues What they are using is the gift of the gift, which is the scriptures They're opening up and so missionaries are going and so they're where is the gift of tongues today You're a continuationist. We see all the other gifts operating No, when I when I say I'm a gift of I I am a continuationist that doesn't mean that it is as as um An abundance as we would see in the scriptures I think the the funny thing is it's kind of amazing that now we see more and more people using a gift Why is this gift exploding? Why is the gift of tongues is exploding and and these vague prophecies are exploding but other gifts aren't exploding Why why are you there? They are floating Yeah, tongues number one is the entry thing That's the sign of the spirit x 8 x 10 x 19 x 19 mentions prophecy But none of the other gifts are mentioned there not not healing not miracles not word of wisdom not word of knowledge Right, so tongues is mentioned repeatedly in acts as a sign of the giving of the spirit Prophecy a little bit less so Uh, and then you see healing's miracles, but yeah around the world There is an explosion of other other gifts gloriously wonderfully documented We're to take weird now again There are a lot of things that folks would document that necessarily mean there's proof because of personal order now There's a lot of there's a lot of falsities that are written down Muslim would testify to some things also hinders and so forth and so but again Rather than the different because if I want to take if I want to take someone else's Experiences what they say Then just to add equal weight and be fair I've got to also give the same validity to a muslim who says they're speaking tongues The I was online listen to some muslims speaking tongues and they sounded just like the christian the hinders as well And so what I will do oh, so you're you're not talking about people convert it You're talking about people who are still muslims and still I'm saying I'm saying that there was to be counterfeit right There's the same way if they claim to be working miracles that doesn't deny the the reality being a christian Does that mean that you also can't do anything in a counterfeit fashion also because you're christian You could if you but not if you're based in the word and in a good relationship with God Jesus uses specifically in luke 11 If if which man of you if you if if your son asked for bread would give him a stone If he asked for fish would give a snake instead if you then being evil know how to give good gifts You're children how much more will the heavenly father give the holy spirit to those who ask so as people around the world Jesus lovers have said father fill us with your spirit So we can more effectively serve you and then they are filled with the spirit They begin to speak in tongues They become powerful evangelists and you cannot deny that the vast spread of the gospel worldwide has been largely carried By by people who speak in tongues and who believe in the gifts of healing etc We have been witnesses by God's grace. It's part of an explosion of the spirit with massive numbers of true converts Coming we just can't deny that but listen Uh, maybe maybe we need to do a part two But but uh, I really I need to run folks, of course can reach me to ask dr brown dot org I welcome phone calls. I've got my my talk radio tomorrow. They can call in and agree with you kori But but but can we both agree and say father We want everything that you have for us in the fullness of the spirit to glorify Jesus and nothing That's not from you We want everything you have and nothing that you don't give kill I pray that for you. You pray that for me fair enough fair enough Dr. Brown, this this was wonderful. I thank you so much Oh, thanks man. And listen again I didn't expect it to be this feisty But as much as you pressed of course, I'm gonna press back So with that I feel a deeper sense of fellowship with you have inspired a little. All right. Amen God bless you. God bless you too, brother. Bye. Bye Guys, I want to thank you as well. I said before we are going to now move over to a q&a In just a second the computer or the youtube or whoever it is Whoever this this maybe some guys sitting in the chair somewhere at youtube is going to push the button And so when I end this stream In about a minute 30 seconds 20 seconds, not sure how long It'll take you to the next stream the live stream q&a and so guys. Thank you so much. I will see you on The uh, oh what I just do I will see you In if I can get this thing to move. Okay. I'm sorry. I will see you guys over uh on the other stream God bless you