 Well, it's an absolute pleasure and I'm delighted to be able to speak with you all tonight. And thank you Stefano for reminding me how long my career is and how old I am. Sorry about that. No, I've had a wonderful career and yes, my career has been split into three areas. So as Stefano said, my first main career was a full service career with the Royal Air Force, working across the whole of Northwest Europe, the UK and America. And then I had a short career working with our family business, one of my parents became quite ill. And then during that time, I actually took my master's degree at Teeside. And that's how I actually ended up working at Teeside University and I started there in 2000. But I've maintained my contact with industry. So I'm very lucky on one side of my heart, it says industry. On the other side of my heart, it says academia. And I've had extensive experience, both working with the most wonderful people and the most wonderful organizations, some better than others. But as part of the development processes, which is what I do. And I think that's a really important role of universities in terms of working with industry is to break the cultural barriers between university and working, especially with small companies. Because they kind of see as a peer, and actually in reality, we're on the same level. We want to achieve the same things. And that's, you know, creating better working environments, both for us and for industry. And part of my talk tonight is to share with some fantastic research that I've been doing with, I'm going to read to the next slide Stefano is working in partnership and in collaboration with Leeds, Northumbria, Sheffield, York City, John, and University of Bradford. And all of these universities are in the north of England. I guess that's what we're developing. We're developing a northern partnership of universities. And it's a new partnership. So it's growing. And as we speak, I'm organizing a writing retreat for us all to go away and actually move that partnership into a strategic partnership where we can provide even better sharing practices. I'm passionate about universities and operating as an anchor institute, and we anchor to our liberal communities and share and develop knowledge. And it's a win-win. We learn from industry and industry learn from us. And I think that's really, really important. So, I'm going to be talking to you tonight about working principles that have emerged out of doing some research with SMEs. And this research started in March 2020 and it's still ongoing. And we're working with 30 companies at no moment, but this will expand because it's live research and we go back to these companies every three months. Because hybrid working now is, I think it's just going to develop more and more. So we need to be talking to our organizations and keep in contact with them to see how they are growing with it or not. And that's just as important. So we've done observational and qualitative data collection. So observational, we actually go into the companies, talk to them, see how they're working with digital technology or other types of technology that assists them. And through these conversations and through this observational and qualitative research, what started to emerge was a set of remote working principles. And so far we've identified six, we're probably going to identify another three, but I won't talk about those tonight. I might do those maybe as an updated talk next year when we've got them in concrete. But the data we have got, and I think this is really important, especially when you're working with practitioners, is that we're sense checking for validity, pragmatic sense or practitioner sense. Because when you're dealing with industry, they will look at academia and think, well, yeah, sorry, mate, but you're not talking my language. I have no clue what you're talking about. So it's going back to the same. Do you understand what we are talking about? If you don't, we need to understand your language so we can use that to pass it on to other organizations. Yeah, and so that's ongoing. And we're continuing to data collect and also print sense check, which is really important with the, with our policymakers, if you like, in terms of our trade unions, our local councils, our local educational partners. Yeah. Okay, so the rationale for the research, why is it important? Why is it relevant? And we know that many employees and businesses still have the benefits of working from home, but that brings unintended consequences. So forced home working has impacted hugely on social relations at work. Meetings have become what is the right is instrumental. And interactions more fleeting, because meetings on the digital platforms seem to take longer, rather than we can pass a person in the corridor and have a corridor conversation, which takes two minutes, that then turns into a 40 minute meeting on the digital platform and more people want to get involved. So it's kind of like I always, I think there's a piece of popcorn, it just like explodes into something that becomes quite unmanageable. Yeah, and then we've got changing work patterns that have blurred the boundaries between the workplace and home. Yeah, I've noticed that. And with blended forms of work, we become more task oriented and transactional. I must get this done. I need to get that done by such and such a time, or I need to read that objective. So it becomes much more structured and time based with many more deadlines put in place. And this approach can be dangerous. A skepticism then concerning home based learner may exasperate workplace tensions. So if people were thinking, well, okay, I'm struggling with this in the workplace. Now I've got it in the workplace and at home. And people are finding actual time management and prioritising is becoming quite tricky and quite a challenge. And what we've discovered is that yes, we policy makers are saying all sorts of stuff about what hybrid work is something that works for everybody. It's the way forward. But that's policy makers and what we want to do, we want to go back to the little people and actually hear their voices and cover their voices and find out, you know, existing workplace inequalities and resolve conflict, while whether we're working at home or managing the phase return to the workplace. These all of these have received less attention. Thanks to Farno. So the center of smart and medium enterprise development of the Institute for Research and Organisations based at the University of Central Lancashire. They worked with regional partners across the Northern region. So that's the partnership that I showed you in the beginning with Sheffield to five of them Brea, etc. So you can have led this or they led it from the outset, but now we're all sharing the workload. And out of that we want to provide small to medium size enterprises with a set of principles to support remote working and hybrid working. And these principles were and continue to be underpinned with rigorous research carried out during the COVID-19 pandemic. So we have a set of checks with our policymakers and more importantly with the SME community. Because quite often they are missed out in the communication process. And these have been developed in dialogue in dialogue with businesses and business support organisations. So what's the context. Sorry, Stefano, can you go back please? So once the context is rooted in the COVID-19 pandemic, we envisage that these principles involving with time as well learn to navigate through new ways of working will be applicable to many different contexts. So all sides of businesses across sectors and across nations. So I hope tonight when I show you the principles that we've developed, you will see relevance and be able to take from them and apply to your to your context and please do take them and use them. We're producing a proper little pamphlet, which I will send to Stefano once we've got it properly polished up. And please, we'd love to have distribution of these principles and some feedback on them as well. Thank you, Stefano. Yeah. So I'm sure it's the same in your countries. There are our economic bedrock. And certainly in this country in the United Kingdom, they comprise 99% of all businesses. There are nearly. Oh, sorry. There are nearly 6 million SMEs, about 15 million million people and generating a turnover of 2.2 trillion. And I think all of us know that SMEs have hit. It's been a devastating hit to some organizations. The SMEs in our region were facing huge financial productivity challenges even before the pandemic occurred. And therefore these principles have been developed to support productivity and the health and well being of employees. So the six principles. So they aim, or the aim of them is to support businesses in managing remote and hybrid working networks or flexibility skills development and training. We're looking at the employee voice involving them in the process is for their voices that we've actually developed these principles. We're looking at social relationships, digital presenteeism and physical and mental health and mental well being. So there are the underlying philosophies out of which these six principles have emerged. Okay. So we'll say these are individual principles. They do overlap and interact with each other. So we've decided to be common sense and pragmatic, which we find is absolutely critical. It's a critical success factor for anything that academia do in terms of getting it into industry. It has been real to them. There's academia. Industry don't care about academic language. They don't care about, we've got a doctorate or not, they don't care about if you're a professor. They care about whether you've got a solution to their problem. That's all they're interested in and it isn't going to cost them money. They are the two critical things that industry considers certainly in our context. So we have to bridge those barriers to help our small communities. So what we've found is that businesses who are embracing these six principles are already starting to report high levels of employee satisfaction. And also, they are starting to be able to recover their business. Because in the UK, certainly in England, according to the latest statistics, we are about to lose 250,000 small businesses who are closed due to COVID. And I think that's a devastating figure. Thanks, Stephanie. Right, so what are the six remote working principles? We've got flexibility. We've got skills development and training. We've got employee voice. We've got social relationships. We've got digital presentism. And we've got physical and mental health and wellbeing. So over the next couple of slides, that's okay. You can move on, Stefano. Each is the principles to help us to see, well, okay, so we've got six of why they're relevant. So the first one, flexibility. So the principle of flexibility is to understand how we work together to consider the needs of employees and the organization to achieve secure, sustainable and productive work. Especially within the COVID context, excuse me, we've got long hours. We've got damaging work patterns and uneven impact, pardon me, on women are all known impacts of working at home. Also, we face the highest levels of unemployment in recent times. I am talking about the UK context. And our staff are the greatest asset of an organization and growth will be high on the agenda on the agenda when the pandemic is over. And we've been quite relieved to find, also as part of our research, that now we have quite a few of our organizations who are about to start retreating again. And also to bring back their staff, which is a great relief because notwithstanding us, we're going to lose 250,000 organizations. Most of our organizations, we've got more who have survived than who are going to close, which is really encouraging. That's down to them and their innovation and their ability to be able to. In terms of practical solutions, talk to your people about the impact of the boundaries about being contactable and non-contactable. Because you'll find as we talk through these principles, the working day is becoming longer and the boundaries between the working day and the non-working day are blurring. Because it's very difficult for people to be offline. And they forget that it's okay to be offline while you are still at work. But then people, certainly I've noticed myself. I mean, I know we're all very conscious and, you know, we are not nine to five people. Even my hours now have become longer because everything is taken longer to do because of the digital requirement off of that working place. So if you're looking at returning to the workplace, you know, put individual needs at the heart of that return, talk to employees about their needs and the situation of the business. So it's not just about having business meetings, but remember people are human beings and talk to them and engage them as human beings when you're discussing and consulting with them on a work base, on a digital platform. Yeah, and especially don't assume the needs of employees and employers are the same or static. They are ongoing and change. So for example, I've got two people in a company who I work with who are profoundly deaf and they actually find working on a digital platform quite difficult because they have to have three interpreters with them. So it's kind of like dealing with those sort of, oh my goodness, while you don't realize the needs of, you know, invisible disability that you cannot see on the screen. And plants also it's not just about plan for changes with your employees and your employers. It's the changing demands of customers and key stakeholders. You know, so yes it's upholding flexible patterns. Okay, but there's a double impact of customers being more demanding the workplace being more demanding and that encroaching on our home life and our work-family balance. Yeah, so for example, we have stopped them doing emails at weekends. I was just having to tell them to stop. They wouldn't normally do it because that's their time with their families and secondly, clients will get used to people replying on Sundays and Sundays. So then they'll turn into a norm and an expectation that they will have in future. So it's all about make managing and making sure that the stuff get downtime, but managing client expectations. We are managing tensions between being a good employer and meeting business needs. So then we have skills development and training and the underlying principle here is that we need to support skills development and training. But we need to ensure employees can meet the changing needs of the business while focusing on development and progress of the whole workforce. And the context. So in order to make product of the challenges and still get important employees are developed and developed to meet these new, these new demands. I'm certainly from my own experience, even working with students on my colleagues will all tell you before this year, I was a complete IT dummy. And if anybody said to me or you need to record a lecture, I'd run screaming from the room. But now, because I should largely see workplace learning and learning on the job and learning from my colleagues. I'm confident on a digital platform. And actually I really like recording my, my stuff. It's a business or for the students. So at the moment I'm developing a medicine thing for a small business. And I also developed stuff my students and both of those I'm doing by recording sessions. It means they can be pinched at them when they want to. Or they can go back to them to them. Oh, yes, they didn't sometimes I talk quite quickly. And I'm quite aware of that sometimes. So, if I, if I'm talking quite quickly and the student can't quite hear, then they can go back and check their understanding, what the employers can do that can break my session to buy science pieces. So it's really, really helpful. So to reassess the needs of the business, you will have people who are skilled at digital stuff, you will have people who are not skilled, and quite frankly, you will have people who are actually terrified of it, and they will have resistance to that sort of change. That also has to be dealt with as well. Okay, so yeah, keep a focus on development and progress for all employees in the organization. And ensure new employees have a clear development and learning plan and commit to supporting skills development. Don't just say to, you know, your, your employees or whoever you're looking after your, your end user client, end user client if you like. Okay, well, here's a training manual, get on with it. Yeah, make sure, because as part of leadership management, you know it's part of monitoring, evaluating and controlling and inputting and make sure we're there for people to talk to us and come to us and say, oh, I really like this but I've got a problem. And then, and then you can talk together to come up with a solution to that problem between you. Yeah, okay. Yes, employee, employee voice that this to me is probably, in my view, were the most important. So the underlying principle here is understanding the employee voice but you have to facilitate it, you have to allow it to be heard. Allow people to talk to you, facilitate that. So a bit communication communication strategies where worries and tensions and conflict can improve to it can it can exist to improve workplace relationships conflict is a good thing. It shouldn't be dampened down and allow people to express their tensions and to get things off their chest. Because if they don't, then they will harbor these tensions and they can become quite ill feelings. And then you'll have a dog that's been fed into your great spine, you know the hidden communication that goes on, and also get people in stress. They felt they're not being listened to don't feel part of the organization, and then they start to be feel quite alienated. And that's exactly what you don't want in this type of new environment, because people, especially on a digital platform and already start to feel quite lonely. Yep. Okay, employees, their voice in terms of their experiences of remote and hybrid working. Certainly my colleagues we talked to each other quite frequently. And several people come up with great ideas or suggestions or they come across problems. I work with the companies, they'll say well yeah, yeah we want to talk to everybody at the same time but that's quite problematic. So think about who we need to talk to at a particular time. Allow time for people to come to you and also facilitate methods of communication where they might not talk directly, but they'll have a confidential channel of providing with information without being identified. Okay. Yes. So create worker forums to openly discuss the challenges of the business and the tensions of employees, especially with remote working and new hybrid types of working. Human beings were naturally gregarious creatures. We like being with other people. And it's really important that people are put together in some shape or form, which is why teams is great. Zoom is great, but make sure that people are engaging, they feel confident to engage. My colleagues will know that I'm not afraid to talk to anybody and I usually have quite a lot to say, but when they first started on a digital platform, I was actually quite quiet for a long time. So just remember, you know, it might take people time to embed or get used to these types of communication methods. Yeah, social relationships. Again, this is another key area. I've just said we're gregarious creatures. So, and working on a digital platform or via digital platform, it can be quite lonely. And I personally, I found it quite difficult when we were first and forced to work from home. Because I worked with a fantastic group of people, we were always passing each other on the corridor, we would stop at the third copy, have a chat, we'd stop in the kitchen to have a chat. You know, and that actually is where a lot of problems are solved through these informal conversations, corridor conversations. Of course, these are happening now because of the digital platform. So we need to be creative to enhance this informal dialogue across organizations in an inclusive way and enhance trust and commitment. I mean, I think one of the things that are a hazard of remote working is a lot of meetings are recorded. And that can also make some people quite uncomfortable and not come forward with what they actually want to say. So that can dampen openness if you like. Yes, it's in the context. We know that isolation loneliness or serious impacts of the pandemic, especially for small to medium enterprises. And we also know that social relationships and connectedness at work are extremely important. So some solutions offer ways and time for employees to connect to each other, encourage employee led conversations and focus on new employees and developing social relationships. Yep, ensure remote and onsite workers are interacting with each other. And engage, encourage time out so workers can engage in social relationships outside. Our school is very good at doing this. Pardon me. We've got loads of team sites, but we've got one in particular, which is tops or tubes, we've changed our name. We know we are Teeside University International Business School, which is very exciting. But we've got a fantastic site where it's just in general, and we all go in with really funny gifts. The shoes I bought last week with jokes or, you know, I'm baking a cake. So it's all informal, great fun stuff. And currently at the moment, we're deciding where to go for our next organizational party. So that's a good sign. Now where we're getting back together. And it's really important, especially because we've got so many new staff. Yes. Okay. So, yeah, it's about being creative to enhance the informal dialogue across the organization. But actually it's more than that. You know, we've always had informal dialogue, and it's ensuring that that continues as facilitating that in a way that, you know, people don't think they're being watched or listened to or recorded. So we need to avoid the big brother factor with informal dialogue, which is a hazard of working or communicating on a digital platform. Thank you, Stefan. Yeah, so an example. I was there nearly every day in January, February, what made me realize as well during this time, it wasn't just about the physical location. It was about the connection with the people. And now I will probably go once a week for the social side. So it's about dipping in and out of the facilities that we've got. So we have, we have a site that's available all the time for our informal dialogue. And I'm encouraging, there's a few organizations that I'm working with and encouraging them to do the same. It means that that space is there, but they don't have to be in that space all the time. And it's a bit like a virtual coffee room, where people can go together, have a virtual coffee with each other. Just talk about informal stuff in general. And usually it's, it's not about work and it's designed not to be about work. It's where people can continue their friendships, they can talk about their plans. And it may be, you know, they're talking about, okay, it's work related, but you know, in your paper, do you want to come and get involved or as you heard about this conference, I'm going to, it sounds really exciting. So it's where you can share stuff that's not usually informal meetings. Yeah, okay. So yes, the crux of the matter, digital presenteeism. So, be aware of digital presenteeism and work intensification. This is the critical hazard of hybrid and remote working. The underlying philosophy here is we need to, about guiding our principle is we need to set clear guidance demonstrating around what being at work means and set boundaries around the work-life balance. So communication technologies can intensify the work of employees. Presenteeism impacts productivity and damages the wellbeing of the workforce because they feel a need to be constantly online. And we should not assume that being at work is always the best thing for employees and businesses. So talk to employees about the impact of their work hours. Are they getting work creep? Is their work creeping into their normal home life hours? I consider the different impacts on your different types of employees. I mean, women, as much as, you know, we like to think that it's an equal world and it's the 21st century, but women still bear the brunt of looking after dependents and being responsible for the house. And ensure fair and equitable workloads and responsibilities across teams. And ask yourself, and your teams, if working less can achieve more, because people, the longer people are on or at their workplace, it's likely they'll get tired, they'll start to go into burnout. There's almost like that they work a week's worth in a day. And so the next day and the next day, they become less effective at their work because they've burnt up a time that they should be reserving for the next days. Yes. Okay. And so setting clear guidance demonstrating that being at work can be not online. Encourage conversations about managing customer demands in a timely manner. Because as I alluded to at the beginning, the longer you're working, the more your customers will expect you to be working. And that then will become a normal expectation, which down the line will probably become quite difficult to manage. Encourage time away from a desk, even in work hours. And this is especially important for physical health. If you are such at your computer, excuse me, for eight hours without having a break, that can lead to all sorts of physical health hazards, blood clots, cramping, bad posture, backache, headaches, dehydration, screen eyes. So there's all sorts of things that we as managers and leaders really need to ensure that we include those in terms of looking after our people working in hybrid environments. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So considering the impact of work in cultures. Thank you Stefano. I think it's a really good example of this. So it's a bit overwhelming at times. For me, you know zoom emails, social media. And it got a bit too much because you were saying everything, rather than a one, rather than one to one conversation, and then going into a meeting to me there was a sense that it was coming at you from all directions. Yeah. So, and all of that kind of is wrapped up in physical and mental health and wellbeing. So you and your employees are your greatest asset. And we have a law in this country, which is our health and safety at work law. And an actual fact, we are legally obliged as employers and also as employees to take care of ourselves. So we are our own risk and we have to risk manage ourselves in terms of health and safety in the workplace. So it's important that we support our employees and be open and ensure that they know that if they're starting to have problems that you will listen to what they have to say. Remember about digital voices. So, share information that can help managers and employees with the health, safety and wellbeing. Check in on workers, listen to concerns and anxieties and act on them. Sign post employees to relevant support. So for example, we have Public Health England and also a mental health support body called mind. And start with basic policies around sickness and absence and performance management, etc. And certainly when I started working on a digital platform. Oh, God, it was taking me forever to do something before that I could have done in 10 minutes. And that really affected my, my confidence. And I'm quite a confident person I thought, oh my God, this is really getting in the way of me performing in the workplace. I was mindful of that. And I didn't have discussions at the time. So like I'm really concerned about my lack of knowledge and ability and capability of working on these, these platforms. And it's just new colleagues and support from the people, you know they gave me the confidence to develop my skills in this area. And encourage existing policies widely, but don't back them on, revisit them. Are they still fit for purpose in a remote working environment? So your sickness policy, does it include, you know, I've got screen eyes from, from working on a digital screen, or I really need a break. Can I just do, you know, with hybrid working, please, can I be online but offline? And they shouldn't have to ask me to be able to do that. But I shouldn't be in your policy. Yeah. Okay. And also, what I find is also really important is, is avoid having back to back online meetings. It doesn't facilitate people taking a proper break. They feel obliged that they have to go to everything, even though they might not have to go to everything. They may well feel obliged that they do have to. So make that clear as well. And then encourage workers to take time out of work. So with me, because I'm terrible, working in the world of computers, I'm sure you feel the same. Five minutes working on a computer usually in effect is about five hours. So it's almost like you're operating in a different time zone when you're working on the computer, and you lose track of time. I've put my phone on for every hour to remind me that I've worked at the screen for an hour and that I need to get up and have a walk around. So it's not about, you know, yes, of course your employees are at work, but manage it so that you're making their work safer and healthier for them to be operating in. That way, you won't have them going into burnout. You will do your best to be mindful of health and safety and welfare. You know, welfare often is the hidden aspect of health and safety. You know, it's mind and body that we need to take care of. Okay, thank you. Yeah, okay, so I know it's going to be pretty hard. I know that I know potentially my anxiety and my depression are going to threaten, but I know how to handle them. When responding to working away from family, the knock on from that is that I feel lonely and vulnerable and isolated as well, because if anything happens to me, nobody can come to my rescue. It is quite, and from another of our participants, it's quite easy to work seven days a week. But the mental health of my staff is very important to me and probably as important as their physical well-being. So that kind of supports my statement about, you know, it's not just about the physical body, it's also the mental state and well-being of people as well as the physicality. So a quick summary. So the importance and relevance of our SMEs to our local economies, I'm sure yours are as important to your economy than as they are to ours. So we need to look at them, we need to hear what they've got to say. So we need to facilitate and uncover hidden voices to understand a pragmatic solutions to enable them to work in hybrid and remote working environments, comfortably with confident and increasing levels of confidence and relatively safely. And also the added value of that is that helps us to develop our relationships with industry and it helps to bridge the academic and practitioner divide. So next slide please Stefano. So hopefully you will have found our research and our set of principles insightful and you can take something away from the principles to help you with your own practice, your own organizations. And if you're working with other organizations, please do feel free to take these out and disseminate them. It would be our absolute pleasure for you to do that. Thank you. Thank you Catherine. I think that I stopped sharing just look at what are the kind of questions that came through. Yes. Yes. Is it okay if I go through the comments? Yes, yeah. Yeah, okay. So the first one I can see is the application of these principles to us amazed. And this reason could yes, of course, please do. We'd be absolutely delighted to take them. And if your students with their permission, certainly let us know what their findings are. And if necessary, we'll add their findings to ours and credit them for doing so. Of course, cultural study could also be done. Yes, be delighted. If you want to email me afterwards if you want to pick that up. We are looking at scoping this up to be a bigger project that anybody who would like to get involved and get involved with them, perhaps bid writing. Yes, please. Catherine. So there is a question from young shang actually in terms of digital presence so that presenter is men so now could we make sure that someone is at work or just login and run away so basically the idea is that Well, young shang is actually asking a question like kind of And also he's suggesting that you present this to the leader of your business school actually thanks God it's not my business. So I don't know you can try. It's like being with children they always let you down. They really do my lovely colleagues. Yeah. No, but a good question is actually yes indeed the the presentation is actually we are talking here like the reference you. I have a few questions actually is kind of I was thinking like I want to ask you a couple of things. Do you think actually this Pragmatic principle that they work in principle to be implemented and so on. They might be to some extent culturally sensitive or do you think they might actually what I was thinking I probably an interesting study that could actually come out following this one would be to see if you take the six principle and you change the culture cluster. Different cultural cluster would give more important to some of the principle rather than others for example. What do you think about that. Yes, quite likely. I mean it would be an interesting study. I mean I haven't put them in any particular order. So they can be changed around to make different cultural needs. But of course also it would depend on the state of the development in the country as well because the assumption is that everybody has access to a digital platform. And that might not be the case. Yeah, you know, so if we look at Africa for example, we're dealing with a lot of it is small crafts. So a lot of farming. There's a lot of culture. There's a lot of tourism tourism probably will be fine with digital stuff. The farmers might not be. Certainly, I mean I'm doing working with some schools in Uganda. And I know that the women who I'm working with, they don't have access to digital platforms outside of their workplace. So the only time they've got access to digital stuff is that's probably actually quite healthy. Because it means then they don't have a sense of commitment to say on their women computers all day, because they don't access them. I see. So yes, I think context would be would be relevant. I do think the ranking would be an interesting study. I mean, I have, I have my two preferences. Yeah, that was my following question actually what is your ranking here so if I have to ask you in light of your long long experience in this field and so on so and I'm asking okay Catherine can you rank them. Give me the first three. So what you would pick. Oh, gosh. Hi. Health and safety skills development. Oh gosh. I'd be hard pressed to prioritize one at the the remaining four, but definitely skills development health and safety. I think social relationships actually social relationships me because I'm a social bunny and then skills and then and then health and safety. You would you would basically take these three as a kind of leading the call. So my personal yeah I'm just asking you based on your like standing experience and so on. The first thing I notice or the first thing I look for is how people interact with each other. Yeah, that's a good because that to me is the be all and and if you're having people talking to each other, nothing works. Only works in their silo. Let me see if there is more question. Yes. My company has already implemented many of these principles but many of our employee can work remotely and therefore able to apply. However, many small media enterprises often require people to be physically present such as hospitality manufacturing retail that the challenges are the same maybe minus the screen eyes and therefore how do you foresee these types of industry applying these principles. Well, I think what we need to remember is that prior to covid they were already organizations who were working on digital platforms as a normal part of their whole shift. So if you're working in hospitality for example. If you think about the reception area in a hotel area. The first thing you will see is a concierge or a receptionist working behind the machine. So that's part of their normal life. With. And I do think that digital working will become a large part of the new normal. But I just, the main concern that we've got is had me because where people work now is is the encroachment of digital work into non working time. So that's one of the biggest issues we really need to be mindful of, because then the cascade effect of that will be that will start to affect people's health. It'll start to affect people's work family balance. It'll start to affect work productivity, motivation, job satisfaction, expectations of customers. It's a massive domino effect. You know where one thing knocks on to to another. That's the question. Yeah, so it's just like specifically if you, if you, if you have any idea you can apply this kind of I think the question was directed more like, except the screen eyes but when it comes to you know like this more in this type of job, you know, like this kind of things like the, the, the application of the principle but I assume that the principle I'm mainly designed. Yeah, for example. Yes, so go back to. So, it present is a normal acceptance is a normal work behavior for some professions. But they've learned how to work that work environment. So you will see, excuse me, people who work in those environments. They are very good at walking away from their screen. And actual fact, quite a lot of them don't have a chair. So they stand at their screen as part of that. I mean people are standing desks now, but you, part of your training in those work environments and your risk assessment in those work environments is you are supposed to do leg exercises. You're supposed to walk away from your screen, especially if you're standing, but that's part they are used to those. If you, if you look at airports, when you go and check in, if you look at, well, they don't stand for most of the time they're there, but they do swap. If you notice check ins they swap every 30 minutes. Usually, they move, they rotate every 30 minutes. In fact, they get up and move around a lot. So if you're looking at, I'm terrible. I'm the worst person. And I know that my colleagues, and I know people who are getting used to these or trying to get used to these work environments. They are stuck at the computers. And the bottom is stuck to their chair. And they forget to move. And they start to build inbuilt alarm systems, the mental alarm systems to help them to remind them this is why I have my phone here that has my alarm on. In fact, I should really do every 40 minutes because that's the requirement. You know, you're supposed every 40 minutes, you're supposed to get up and walk around. And my smartwatch will tell me time to stand. Every 40 minutes or after an hour. I used to ignore it. But then I thought, no, actually I do need to stand because I was finding at the end of the day after working eight hours. I learned to work actually numb. And that, you know, that that is not a good thing. That cannot be healthy. So, yes, it's been mindful. And also talk to your people. Don't make assumptions. I might think, okay, well, the only thing we haven't paid attention to is three and I, but are you sure that's the only thing that you need to pay attention to how you spoke to your people. Is there anything else that you need to be mindful of in terms of health safety and welfare, working in a hybrid environment. There is another interesting question, actually, you're finding a point to the need for employee voice. But how you might cope with suspicions about how the information is received or used in the in the if they criticize the behavior and approach of the organization, for example. Yeah, then you make it anonymous. You facilitate an anonymous route for communication. And yes, you might get some silly comments in there, you know, but just get rid of those. But it's a bit like, you know, it's not, it's not, it's completely different to whistleblowing, for example, you know, it's not a facility where that they're telling about practice. It should be facility where they're telling you about their needs and gaps about stuff that you are not providing for them. And it can work both positively and negatively. So you might seek views on, well, we've introduced this new system to help you. How's it working? How can we improve it? What are the benefits? Is it rubbish? Should we get rid of it? Or what else can we replace it by? So yes, of course. And also, there will be people who are really shy, especially if there's, if you've got a large influx of new employees, they might not think they've got the right to speak yet because they've not embedded within the organizational culture. You'll have generation, you'll have age gaps, you'll have older workers who might have completely different attitudes to younger people. So I mean, it's a general assumption that older people don't work well with digital or technical stuff. I would probably say that's a bit of an old argument now, because older people are engaging more now with technology, but they've had to. I mean, we know in this country now, in the UK, we can say that, you know, instead of change taking three years, we've had innovative changes that have happened in three months. So it's almost like the COVID environment has forced us to change to accept and adapt to working in new and different ways. I have another question. I find it hard to engage in shadowed or expected social engagements online. Is there an approach that an employer could take to encourage this kind of experience, but without the sense of obligation for a participant? Yes, it should be on a voluntary basis. And then people who do get involved encourage them, not you as a facilitator, but encourage your participants in that social place to share their experiences with others and say, oh, look, come along. It's great. We're really good friends. We had really positive conversations. We caught up with each other. We had a virtual coffee. So it's all about communicating, telling people, you know, this is not the actual formal workplace. This is a space where we're there in a virtual environment. So it's almost like we're as close to what we would be doing in the workplace, but not quite, but nearly. Talking over each other and laugh together and, you know, have your coffee and dropping a biscuit in your coffee and everybody laughing at you and stuff like that, you know. And make it short, you know, a maximum of 20 minutes, but it doesn't interrupt too much with the working day. Any other? Does that help? Yeah. Any other comments? And lunchtime, you know, if you, if you, if you, it depends on what shiftwork on your shift structure. So if you've got a standard working day, what I call a standard working day, which is what eight o'clock till six o'clock at night, and you might work seven and a half hours within that period. So you can make an hour available for people to dip into an eight of. What we call paperback lunches. So you bring your paperback with you. You don't have to be down in front of you. You eat your sandwiches, you have your drink. You listen to what everybody is saying. You take part in conversations. And then when you have a tea break or an informal break, then you just bring your drink. Or not, or just be there to talk to people. You can also have a virtual area. We've got a fantastic one in our scope, which I was describing earlier on. We have a team site, which is called, it's just a general site. So it's two together general. And that's where we go in and we put all sorts of stuff in there. It might be that I had a really nice bottle of wine on the weekend. So I tell everybody, I'll show you in the ball and say, this is really nice. It's available in Tesco's at 699. Lovely, go and get some. Or it might be, we know it's somebody's birthday. So we'll wish them happy birthday on there. But we can leave a message. We don't actually physically have to be there. Yeah. So you've got the virtual where you can leave stuff. You can have a virtual conversation with that actually seeing each other. Or you can create the teams. They don't have to be there, but you do want to encourage it. So let your participants share the good word about, well, it's great. I feel really good, but a relaxing time. I've seen everybody. I know everybody's okay. I've heard the workplace. I certainly find that I'm dying to get back to the office. And I tell you, I never ever thought I'd hear myself saying that. Great. Now, Mark has a question, which takes us off the direct topic of the lecture tonight, but certainly is relevant to Catherine's background. Do you see that there? It came earlier. Which question? Oh, yeah. Thank you for your talk today. Sorry, I missed that. Sorry about that. So the input is highly appreciated. I would like to ask you what advice would you have for someone aiming for both career in academia. Aiming for doctorate or research and professional sphere. What skills are vital in order to thrive in both of these worlds? Thank you. That's really interesting. It depends on which world you want to be based in. So as an academic, I can work in industry. But also what we are doing more and more now is we are getting several of our industrial colleagues to come and talk to our students. It's very difficult to work in industry and also take up a teaching post because you just wouldn't have the time to do it. I don't think. And also it would blur your commitment to which organization you want to be with. But certainly my choice would be if you want to do both, I would, excuse me, if you're looking like we are, because we get research leave every year. And we get quite a lot of holidays. And I use that time to go work in industry. I'll do it on a voluntary basis. And that usually comes back with lots of different opportunities. So as, because I love the world of academia, I've been very lucky. I've left all of my careers, but I really love working in our university because it provides me with opportunities to go do other stuff, as well as well as thought of my academic career. So with my doctorate, I worked with an organization. I did my research with one organization for three years. And that was fantastic opportunity. And because of that, I'm working with other organizations in a similar field. And my knowledge and experience that I've developed from those in terms of identifying what works for an organization, I can then transfer that into other sectors within industry. So it's actually, that's a really difficult question to answer. But my, it's harder to work in academia because you have to get your, it's unlikely now you get a post with that kid within academia, unless you've got PhD or a doctorate or quite high level professional qualifications. You also need your teaching qualification, certainly in the UK. And I would, I would suggest it's easier, easier to have temporary breaks from academia to go working in or with industry than it would be breaking from industry to come into academia. Unless you're a nurse or one of the medical professions or an engineering profession. Because quite often it's very difficult to get academics in those fields simply because they're not paid enough as an academic. So we've got practitioners that come and teach from the engineering and the medical world. Does that kind of answer the question? That's a very difficult question to answer. It depends where your heart lies, you know? No, no, it is. Yeah, thank you. Yes, you could. You could start in academia and go back to industry and then come back into academia. If I had my choice, that's probably what I would have done. To be honest, when I was a child, I was profoundly deaf until I was the age of 16. And if anybody had said to me in my youth that I would end up with a doctorate working in a university and also working in the industry, I would have just laughed at them, you know? So, but you've got to work hard. You know, you've got to go and poke people in the chest and say, I would like to do this. Can I go and do this, please? You know, and get support, go and find out what to do this. How can I make this happen? Yeah, Catherine, I have another comment coming through the Q&A. So, one of our lecturers, Dave Gannon, teaching HR classes, is asking if it's possible to have access to your PowerPoint that I have and use the PowerPoint in his classes as well, if it's possible. Yes, of course. Not a problem. And... Do you understand? Anybody can take these and use them. What I would be grateful for is if you can come back to me and let me know that you're using them. Because I can include that in how we've disseminated these principles. It's not a case of me saying, well, no, you can't. Absolutely. No, no, no. Please take them. It's an absolute pleasure to share them. Yes. As I said, kind of you are going to use it like normal classes and so on. And actually, to follow this up, I was just thinking kind of like what you were talking. You know, the principles, which are pragmatic principles, they're kind of simple and very intuitive. It's kind of doing a sort of self-reflection. And probably I don't follow any of those, actually. I have very bad practice. No, they are very simple and intuitive. And one would say, okay, isn't that common sense? Yes, but when you observe your behavior then, I just realize, actually, probably I don't do any of that. So, and then I'll say, that's why what is the value of that, actually the proposal? The idea I would have is that actually because the business school and the college itself, as you have in T side and so on, an industry network, I would like to take this kind of opportunity to ask you if maybe we can kind of sit down later on, but actually we can formalize, you know, like a sort of set of questions and running around these principles in our industry network and get back to you by instituting like casters as well, to get a feedback. So we can actually kind of create a sort of, let's say a cultural kind of like, maybe difference, maybe something different will emerge. I think actually the big advantage is that the principles are kind of like pretty simple, clear, with the instructions and so on. And it could be really kind of easy to collect and gather this information organization. Actually, that's one of the main points. They are pragmatic. Yes. That's exactly the point of age, right? So by having it pragmatic and simplified in this way, organization might like that. They see a place for the practice. Yes, absolutely. So, yes, of course, please do. I would be delighted to follow. Okay. So probably the best thing to do, I don't know the other thing I wanted to ask you is a bit more technical, but you said that you based on observation and qualitative analysis, right? So which method analytic method did you use for analyzing the qualitative data? So to have a consistency, if you run the same experiment by using those principles. Yeah. So to have a sort of, you know, like, so we don't do like different methodology and so on. We should have a same method and so on. How did you actually analyze with the team those qualitative data? Sematic analysis. Oh, thematic analysis. Sematic analysis. Yeah. Okay. So, and then from the team, you proceed to the formulation of the principles from the team emerging. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Perfect. Like, like, like an inductive study. Okay. Perfect. So. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. So, but there are any other questions from the audience? I hope you've found it useful. I think, as I said, it was very interesting. As I said, the, the. The. The kind of his idea, you know why we're reflecting on this. I said, yeah, there are kind of very intuitive practical, simple and so on. Like mostly like related to common sense, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So as I said, we can follow up on this and see how to implement locally, the research on our industry network and distribute the principles and to kind of have a sort of qualitative kind of feedback and collecting data. So it can actually. Yeah. In some sense promote a cooperation with Lancaster, T side and all the university. You're right about common sense, you know, but then how common. So that's a, no, that's exactly the point. So at the end of it, one say, well, isn't that common sense? Yes. But then when you think it through actually. I mean, personally, I don't do any of that. Almost zero. I think you've been a bit hard on yourself. I'm sure you do do some of it. No, I would agree. I would agree. No. I do. There is a late post in the Q and a from Juan. How will SME. Okay. How will small and medium enterprises develop practice will beneficial to the business environment. Okay. So basically, I think the question is addressed to. So if basically the implementation of this principle, you can think that he can actually benefit the, you know, the development of small, medium enterprises adopting this principle, how that can benefit the business environment. Well, we certainly find that there's less sickness. There's less absence. Because people will be absent, but not necessarily to notify you that you're sick. And actually that's what that's currently what we're exploring. Because remote business. This research. So I would like to think that maybe later on, I can come back and give you another talk on how they have actually benefited. Is that, that's just what we're exploring at the moment. Did you find any kind of, let's say correlation with the performance of the organization? Yeah. People were working so long. It's affecting their productivity, their output. And when some of the organizations that they stopped them doing emails at the weekend. And then their productivity increased. And an actual fact, but we are the worst offenders. Our university tells us we are not supposed to email colleagues at nighttime. But we still do. We are supposed to email people at the weekend, but we still do. So actually we need to learn ourselves about how to behave appropriately. Some of us are not very good examples of how to behave appropriately within a hybrid working environment. But to be honest, I did that before COVID anyway. So I think we need to be careful. COVID is not responsible for absolutely everything that is causing changes at the moment. The digital revolution was happening anyway. It's just been greatly sped up because of COVID. How can we tell if the performance is negatively or positively impacting the business when it's not obvious? So I think the question is, we can actually kind of see that is because of malpractice or not following this principle that actually the performance is not that good for organization. Well, it depends. I mean, have you got performance measures in place? Yeah. Because organizations don't. Normally small and medium don't have that. No, they don't. If you talk to an organization about a performance measure, they will look at you blankly and say, what is the performance measure? I mean, they don't even know what KPIs are a lot of the time. So yes, it's a very good point. And it's a point that we try to stress to organizations. You can't measure if you've got no. It's in place. So you make some place first before you can measure anything. But I get to see talking to your people. That's the best way because this is a people impacting process. Talk to your people and allow them to be honest and open. That's the key thing. You know, if they've really struggled with it, then let them tell you that they've struggled with it. Not that they're struggling personally, because that's probably not the case. But the struggling with is the time management. It's the expanded workload that comes along with digital stuff. I mean, I know myself as an academic. Instead of getting one email from a student, I'm now getting five or six. Because I'm not there talking to them in person. No, it's actually, I mean, I mean, specifically about about the academia university is actually true. The engagement with students and there are many sitting here at the moment, but I can actually kind of witness and kind of see that actually duplicated quadruplicated the amount of exchange of emails, obviously because of the type of working environment. And so, and that's actually has an impact, of course, like intake you taking you a bit out of the normal working hours, because you have to answer to all the emails because of, in some sense, principle of fairness towards all the students, right? So and but he's actually very true that the conversation actually is increasing in massively in terms of email exchange. I think it goes across all universities everywhere. Yes. And I've got students. Yeah. But what I'm sad to see is that, you know, I've got students apologizing to me saying, I'm sorry, I need to ask you another question. So this is what I mean about communicating. So the first thing I go back and say, please don't be worried about talking to me. You know, phone me on teams or I don't care how many times you email me. So my job is to look after my student. I mean, I don't want to email me like 20 times a day or after man a pocket night, you know, but they should have the confidence to be able to, to come to us when they feel a genuine need to, you know. So I made this clear to my students and also to my organizations out in industry, because a lot of them are still some of them have got back to work. But I'm working with one organization. A bit more north to me and they, they are, they are not back in the workplace now, except for essential staff. You know, so I have to work with them online or via digital platform. And I've noticed that my communications with them have also increased. Excuse me. The communication trails are longer and more frequent because we're not there talking to them in person to a five minute conversation. Now it takes about 14 emails. That's just a, you know, just a ballpark figure, but it does take longer. Actually, I have another interesting question which is coming through. Yeah. It's actually, it's a very good question from one of our finance lecture, Bruce. Bruce, actually that is pointing out that there are plenty of initiatives that are driving the areas of a ESG into corporate reporting inside the European Union. So for example, the GR, a framework is generally used for reporting all the non financial activities of organization. Do you think is it realistic to think about, having these principles incorporated in non-financial reporting? Would that be something interesting? I do, but support them with some performance measures. So for example, I use Etienne Wenger's six factor value creation model, which is very good actually because it looks at, you can look at which hand on investment. So you can look at financial values, but you also look at non-financial values. Yes. So what's the immediate gain? So you've got immediate, short, medium, long-term and retraining values as part of those six components. And I'm a big fan of them in terms of, I use those as performance measures in organizations, but for something that's not quite as tangible as financial metrics. Yeah. No, actually, indeed there's a very good model. It does actually a chance to, to assess the non tangible, right? So they're kind of like, normally what is not measured financially, in terms of assets and so on is actually excellent. So, but it could be an idea that actually, the non-financial side of the reporting of organization would be including essentially these principles and how actually they are kind of, in some sense implemented, even in small medium organizations, because one of the student, no, one of the attendees actually is from Johnson & Johnson was saying that Johnson & Johnson does implement this very similar type of principle already in that type of organization, but we are talking about a large size organization. Here we are talking about small medium enterprises. There is another question actually, which is interesting. Was any type of metrics designed for evaluating the implementation of the principle and their effectiveness? No, but we are now looking at, now you are developing, now you are developing the metrics, the metrics to see how, yeah, okay. We're not strictly using metrics, we're using Genghis 2011 value creation framework. The Genghis one, okay, so. Yeah, yeah. Is that, that allows us to look at value creation and impact, rather than metrics? Well, yeah, because normally metrics is, yeah, that's the issue that's normally. It's very difficult to measure. I mean, yes, you can do the financial cost of sickness absence, I suppose. And you could do financial metrics of, of perceived working overtime or unpaid overtime, but that's not what we want to measure. You know, we want to measure the impacts in terms of soft outcomes with the organization rather than the, the hard tangible financial metrics, although of course they're important. Some other student actually suggesting that it would be interesting to take a look at the student feedback on digital campus in regard to what was discussed today. So to see basically if there is any kind of interesting kind of similarities between the principles and so on, because if we interpret like studying at work in some sense, and to see ever. Yeah. And of the data will mirror the results from your research. The first year was the artist, especially due to the uncertainty about behavior, the need to speak in expectation, et cetera. So one of the other member of the audience actually, which is a member of the global forum for ACCA, the global ethics framework and network and so on. So he's actually very interested. If you'd be interested in developing this framework for the report inside, I suppose, and working together on this. So if you are interested. Yes, please. Passed by email onto all interested parties. I'm really excited about working with and collaborating with partners wherever they may be. And we really are very excited about developing these principles with within different contacts. So I'm with different partners. Yes, we'd love to very much. Any any other comments, questions, even though I think we are approaching almost well eight o'clock for you, so nine o'clock for us. But otherwise, you break your principle. I don't want to do that. It's just tonight, you know, like kind of. We should all stand up at a certain point anyways. Oh, gosh. Yeah, so well, Catherine, do you actually realize that we just broke the rules, actually? So so I don't want I don't want to actually kind of, you know, so I think that actually we set the ground for many interesting projects, actually. I think we will kind of probably recollect soon and meet soon for a brief meeting. So maybe with some of the faculty and we can kind of as well. I think about implementing the research locally. If this can be kind of interesting study abroad. Starting from the northern part of northern part of UK and we can implement it locally here, definitely. And also, I think it's very interesting, the idea of following up on the ACCA because the reporting part of it in terms of processes, probably for organization accounting off using this principle might be actually an interesting kind of development for the GRI reporting and so on. So I think he's actually very interesting. So so thank you. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you really. It was very interesting actually to see the results of fresh results of this research. Actually, it's kind of very interesting. I'm pretty sure that as I said, we will take it forward by actually kind of, you know, implementing it in a different ways and so on locally as well. So and develop kind of projects together between the two research units and very looking forward for this and expanding on it. So I would like to thank you once again. I'd like to thank the T-Side Business School and thank you personally for accepting the invitation for spending two hours with us, talking to our students and all of us about your research. And I'm looking forward to see you soon. Some seminars in T-Side or here as well, like kind of, from now on we will meet often. So and also I just would like to take the opportunity to fact that as I said, like it's going to be a sort of cooperation over the next five years between the T-Side Business Schools as Catherine knows that and Xioxian that was here with us. And we will develop several of these, like kind of exchange of knowledge and projects together. And it's going to be for the next five years in terms of research and innovation and development on new projects. And so I'm on the different faculties and students as well, by the way. So I just would like to thank you once again for your time. Thank you. Oh, it's a pleasure. And thank you, and thank you to everybody who took their time to come along and listen. It's very much appreciated. And thank you all for your lovely comments. Thank you. And thank you everybody who attended. Thank you the audience who stayed with us until very late. And thank you for listening. And I'm sure it was extremely interesting, very informative and very kind of, it encouraged some reflection. Thank you. Thank you. Have a good evening everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.