 We're back. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech, and this is our special, fancy, favorite show, the show of the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. Every Wednesday at four o'clock, write that down. Yeah. Today we are honored to have DLNR in force. Well, two from DLNR and one from Department of Health. Department of Health. They work together. Yeah. Suzanne Case, the director of Land and Natural Resources. Thank you for being here, Suzanne. Thank you for having us. And Scott Glenn, next to her, is from the, mmm, mmm. It's a mouthful. Go ahead. Office of Environmental Quality Control. Of course. I was about to say that very same thing. And Sam Lemo. I am from the Office of Conservation and Coastal Lands. And you guys have one great, big, huge thing in common. You handle the land. How do you sleep? How do you sleep at night? Well, it's a big job. But we're obviously very committed to it and happy to be able to work with lots and lots of people who are very committed to protecting our environment. Yeah, it's great because we only have one. That's right. That's right. And we're deeply dependent on it. And if we muck it up, it's, it can't get it back together. Yeah. And you were, you were a speaker at the legislative briefing of the Wild Energy Policy Forum Legislative Briefing all about sustainability and resilience. It's very interesting. And hopefully that'll be a focus for the legislature this season. But what we're here to talk about today is COP 23. I think COP 21s, you know, sits in everybody's mind because that was the first big one. Everybody's very excited about that a lot of press on it. Here we are two years later, COP 23. And I take it all you guys went. We always got to hear everything. This was in Paris, of course. It was in Bonn, Germany. It's a follow up to the conference that was in Paris. Okay. Previously. So that that is generally referred to as the Paris Climate Accord, because that's that's the climate accord that, you know, the nations joined. And so there's a follow up to that. The meeting itself was in Bonn, Germany. And the purpose is, you know, basically for the official negotiators to work out the details and implement in the agreement. But more broadly, it's turned into a very high level conference global conference for all kinds of government and private people who are trying to work out this puzzle globally. How do we, how do we protect ourselves from the impact of the climate change that we have created? This is your first trip to a COP conference. Yes, and we were very privileged to be to be asked by Governor Ege to be the state's delegation to this conference. So we all three went. We went for a week. And we went as part of Hawaii joined the US Climate Alliance, which Governor Ege signed Hawaii on to in June in New York. And the purpose of that really is I mean, when you think about it, the federal government has kind of abrogated its leadership role on the on the global scene on really the Paris Climate Accord. And but, you know, it's it's not just the job of the federal government to, to implement the terms of the Paris Climate Accord. And this has made that clear. And this is actually, I think it's been a, you know, a big kick forward because, you know, we've all realized on the state level and the local level that, hey, we have to do it. And so this was an opportunity for us to work together with other states to on this on the same challenges. How do we how exactly do we do this? And an opportunity really to tell the world that, you know, we are still in great message. We are we as these are state governments and and we are joined together. And it is a very strong message because, you know, really, that's we the majority of the work has to be done in our own homes. My reaction when I when I heard that you went is you and the other states went is that, you know, where somebody critical of the US might have said, Oh, they turned their back on the environment. We can't really say that. Because despite the Trump administration fact is a lot of people in this country, if not a majority of people, if not more than a majority of people in this country do care about the environment. So it was a statement that may not only on behalf of Hawaii, but the whole country. Sure. And that was the message we deliberately went to make, because the US climate alliances now 16 states, it was 15 when we went. And I think seven or eight states went to the cop with that message. And the US climate alliance represents 40% of the population, and about $17 trillion in GDP. So we're a sizable chunk of the country, saying, Yes, we're Democrats or Republicans were all across the map, saying, We are still in we want to work on this. And we're here to work with you other countries, other people, businesses and nonprofits on climate change. I just wonder what happened in Washington when Washington found out that you were going. I mean, you the 11 states that went were going, did they respond in any way to say, No, you shouldn't go, or we don't care that you go or anything? We saw, you know, evidence of them around that there was a there, there were some people there actually working on the details moving from the federal government. So they were there. They also was also a press event stage to basically promote coal. And so I don't think that went over very well. Imagine not no. So they go to bond probably in a big convention center such as our Hawaii Convention Center. And how many people they were like, 20,000, that's huge. Yeah, that's huge. And all over the world, all languages, all countries. And I guess you could get an idea about what the may I say the world is thinking about this issue from the people you saw there the crowd. Yeah. And it's it was a great format because each of us spoke on a panel to talk about, you know, our work that we're doing in Hawaii towards climate change mitigation and adaptation. And and then we're also able to participate in in in listening to the other states what what they're doing. So we made a lot of connections. You know, we just stood up the Climate Commission that that that was created by the legislature and signed into law by Governor Igay, actually write when Trump announced that he wasn't going to, you know, stick with the Paris Climate Accord. And so it gave a lot of momentum to to moving that forward. And there are other states who have similar climate commissions. And so we're able to, you know, now we have relationships that we can trade stories on, you know, how best to to manage this, this process moving forward. So there you were, Sam, giving a speech in front of delegates, maybe 20,000 of them from all around the world on climate coming from Hawaii, which is, you know, legendary for climate really. What do you tell them? Well, first of all, it was terrifying. Being in Europe, in Germany, and, you know, having to speak publicly, you know, with everybody sort of glaring at you, you know, in a packed room of like, you know, you know, climate scientist, climate polyists, people spend their whole lives. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, what could I possibly have to add to the discussion? Yeah. But of course, that's why I was there. And I just wanted to, I wanted to let them know that Hawaii was in as chaircase pointed out, and that we had passed legislation, I think the only state in the country that passed legislation that specifically references the Paris Agreement as an element of our law. That's great. We want to implement the provisions of the Paris Agreement. It's very clearly stated in Act 80, Act 32, Hawaiian Session Laws 2017. So I basically was there to share with them, not only are we in the game that wanted to give them an overview of what Hawaii's doing in order to back up its, you know, back up what it says. And so I kind of described to them some of the initiatives that Hawaii's involved with, you know, such as our renewable energy initiatives, the governor's 3030 plan sustainability initiative. We want to increase our sustainability by becoming food secure. We want to increase our portfolio of renewable energy through wind, geothermal, solar, and basically just straight conservation so they can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. That not only reduces our carbon footprint and provides an example of leadership in doing so, it actually increases our security by reducing our reliance on imported oil. And so I also wanted to highlight to them some of our other initiatives. But so that's why I was there to really explain to people what we're doing. And I was very proud to announce that Hawaii really is a leader in establishing this Hawaii Climate Change Mitigation and Adaptation Commission, of which Chair Case is the lead. And my office is involved with organizing some of the logistics of the commission. And so, you know, the first thing that the commission did, for instance, which is huge in terms of adaptation, is they adopted or accepted the Hawaii sea level rise adaptation and vulnerability report, which is a comprehensive report that illustrates through geographic information system tools, the extent of sea level rise on our coastal areas throughout the state. We're going to have flooding, we're going to have erosion, we're going to have damage to our infrastructure, we're going to have impacts to our coastal communities, you know, people who live in areas about this. You know, so we have now taken the step of towards implementing adaptation, the other side of mitigation. And so it's very exciting to be involved in this and to be at this juncture in this whole thing. And I think this is a really highly energetic sort of environment we're all, you know, living in right now. Let's not get scared. Let's get busy doing something about it. Yeah. So did you get a rousing hand of applause from all these people? What do they think of your comments? Well, what do they think of Hawaii? They asked me a couple of questions about Hawaii, like, you know, can I do some research there? Yeah, I did get a few laughs. I don't know if that was because of the way I look or actually says something witty, but it was it was a very it was a very nice experience for me and very happy to have been able to gone there with especially with these folks. It was really it was really great. Make any friends? I met a lot of people from mess. I met a lot of people from other states through the that are part of the US Climate Alliance and I actually reached out to a fellow from Maryland, Ben Grumbles, who is the head of their Climate Commission, and he sent me information about what kind of things their Climate Commission is focusing on to help us sort of like develop an agenda for what Hawaii wants to focus on for the next few years. So you know, we made a lot of connections and I hope to continue to maintain those in regular weekly discussions with the Climate Alliance. They're staffing it's a real movement. And as Scott mentioned, you know, this alliance is like 40% represents 40% of the population in the United States were like the ninth or 10th biggest economy in the world. So, you know, despite what's happening at the federal level, these issues tend to occur at the local level, right? The mitigation efforts occur at the local level. The adaptation measures occur at the local level environment is local when you think about it. Sure, we'd like the support of the federal government on the big policies, right? We don't want to disassemble programs that help us to meet those goals. But despite that, we're still going to continue doing what we're doing. Yeah, one other thing is that just occurs to me. I mean, I've always felt, see if you guys agree, I've always felt that Hawaii was a leader in this and partly because we care about the land because we need to care about the land. It's not an option. We must care about the land. It's only one of it. We can't expand. We have only what we have. And so the question is, are we seen by this group is 20,000 people at GOP, I mean COP 23? Are we seen as leaders? Are we seen as the iconic, you know, frontier? Well, I certainly think Hawaii has made major gains. I mean, the fact that we have a very aggressive renewable energy goal going back some years now and that we're making significant progress on it, it's, you know, I think Hawaii is inspiring on several levels and one is aggressive goals. One is, you know, the extent that we have natural resources that we can tap for energy. And so we're able to do a lot of, you know, a lot of experimentation. We're famous for that. And, you know, I always, you know, when people say, you know, what can I do? I say, do anything you possibly can. And I call it participate in the mess because we got to learn as we go along. And so just do stuff. And so trying out different types of renewable energy is part of that. And so that's, I think that's something that, you know, other places are, everyone's interested in what everyone else is doing because, you know, people have different governments, states, communities have different steps they can take that move the bar forward. And you kind of look at them and you go, oh, that's cool. What was your favorite country or state here? I mean, the one that really excited you as you went around? Okay, I guess. No, state outside or a country outside. What impressed you most? Which one? Well, they all did. I think what was interesting for me personally was I attended one, attended a couple of sessions on on one on shipping and aviation, because I think that's our frontier. So we're, we're in, we're in, we're very far along in renewable energy. However, I think for for electricity, although I think we have to, in order to really make a dent in the global scene, we have to global carbon emissions, we have to do it faster. But then there's a whole second sector, which we're really just starting out and that's transportation. And so we really need to get to really renewable energy supplied transportation, electric vehicles and the like. And actually, many of the other states were kind of at the same stage of grappling with that problem. And then we also have these other sectors that are a little bit beyond our direct control, which is shipping and aviation, but they both have a lot to do with our survival here and our carbon emissions, our carbon emissions, because those are, those are, you know, heavily dependent on fossil fuels. And so just just to see how everyone's sort of grappling with that and to start to think about what we can do to reduce our emissions and in those levels as well. Okay, we're taking a short break when we come back, Scotty. We'd like to hear from you about what you said and what they said to you, your experience from your special vantage from the Department of Health. It's a little different. Maybe we'll see. We'll see right after we come back from this break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. The host of Voice of the Veteran, seen here live every Thursday afternoon at one p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. As a fellow veteran and veterans advocate with over 23 years experience serving veterans, active duty and family members, I hope to educate everyone on benefits and accessibility services by inviting professionals in the field to appear on the show. In addition, I hope to plan on inviting guest veterans to talk about their concerns and possibly offer solutions. As we navigate and work together through issues, we can all benefit. Please join me every Thursday at one p.m. for the Voice of the Veteran. Aloha. Okay, we're back. We're live. I told you to come back and we came back. See, okay, Suzanne Case, Scott Glenn, Sam Lemo from the Department of Land and Natural Resources and the Department of Health. Yeah, talking about COP 23, took place in Bonn in November and they all went. I know we want to hear complete report. So Scott, we haven't heard from you about your experience, your speech, your remarks. Were you also terrified like Sam? I was quite excited to go. Okay. So the Office of Environmental Quality Control is mainly known for environmental impact statements, environmental assessments that that review process and its role is to help balance the considerations of the environment with economic development to help us make better informed decisions about who we want to be as a people. So my role with this was to support governor with the U.S. Climate Alliance and looking at the climate change aspects in terms of our environment and economic development. And when we went to COP 23, I was asked to speak about some of the things that we're doing here in Hawaii, some of the things that we're doing with the other U.S. states. And one of the things that we focused in on was Hawaii's unique. We're one of the 50 U.S. states, but we're off on our own and we're a Pacific Island, but we're not a nation like Palau or Samoa might be. So we have a different set of geography compared to the other U.S. states and we have a different set of policy tools compared to our peer islands in the Pacific. And so that's created some interesting dialogue where we work with others about international climate change problems, but technically we're not a nation, a country that can sit at the table for like the Paris Agreement. And then similarly, when we're looking at things that we can do to promote conservation, we can't do things like what Palau might do where they say, okay, that's it, we're protecting all sharks, period. So we don't have those same tools that they do. And so going there and listening to the other states and countries about the way they're tackling things was for us a bit of a, how do we tie this together? This is something they're doing in Maryland. But what does it mean for a Pacific Island? Or, okay, here's what some of our fellow Pacific Islanders are doing. How do we adjust that to an American legal framework? And so that was probably the most exciting and interesting thing for me to hear. So what's your sense of it after this COP 23 conference? Is the world, as you saw it there with those 20,000 delegates, is the world actually doing things now? Or is this a continuation of a kind of policy discussion still waiting for implementation? It's both. And one of the things that we heard that when we were there was that no one's doing enough. We've all put in these things called nationally determined contributions in DCs in the COP 23 talk. And that's not money contribution. That's contribution in terms of effort. Right. It's what are we going to do to reduce our carbon emissions with the idea that we're trying to stay under 1.5 degrees rise in temperature globally, ideally, and at worst, two degrees. And we've already, it's already risen one degree. Just over one degree. Just over. Yeah. So we only mean it's been successful then. It means we only have a cushion of about half a half a degree left before we get to the one and a half. Yes. And then maybe one degree left. There was something in the paper recently. I don't know if this was discussed at COP 23 about how temperatures in the world have gone up this year as much as they did or almost as much as they did. And I think it was 2016 or 2017. So yeah, there was a to the Noah. Noah just came out with preliminary date on 2017. It was one agency rated as the second hottest year on record. Another agency rated it as the third hottest year on record. But despite that, that's that's some somewhat astonishing because we're in a somewhat of a La Nina right sort of phase where it shouldn't be as hot as that. Right. So usually expected to be cooler than it was. Yeah. So what what sense do you have of the future of COP 23 going on COP 24 and all right from your experience there? Did you make friends? Did you get a feeling for how the world have what a question you get a feeling for how the world is conducting itself? Yes, yes and no. So yes, we have a sense we did make friends and we did get a sense of what's going on. The know is that everyone still kind of scratching their heads about how do we really ramp down carbon emissions. And so we've all kind of gone back to our own countries and states to think about this. And that's what we're trying to figure out now is how do we accelerate this transition to decarbonizing our economy to reducing carbon emissions, getting under renewable energy, figuring out the international part. And that's probably what's going to continue at these future cops is how do we keep the international trade situation something stable but also decarbonizing it? Yeah, I was also going to ask you what what we can do what you brought back from this conference that would be useful. I will ask you all sources and was there any idea that came back either from the states you were with or from, you know, the conference in general that was prominent? Probably for for me, the most interesting idea was the idea of a carbon budget was to look at the total amount of carbon that one can emit and still stay below one point five degrees or two degrees versus how much carbon you plan to emit and then looking at the gap between the two and then what you can do to reduce that gap. Countries doing this. States doing this. They're starting to. We're starting to. So the United Nations releases a report every year saying here's the gap between what people have promised to do and here's what everybody really needs to do. Here's the promise. Here's where we need to be. And so states and countries are now starting to figure out how do we close that gap? Yeah, but you know, one one last thanks God. And that is that you did you have a feeling that, you know, it's the point I raised at that briefing a few weeks ago. Hawaii is a little spec on the map. Even if we were the best good guys in the world, what effect would we have, you know, on carbon emissions in this little tiny set of islands? It's the same effect we have in other conversations, which is if Hawaii can do it, we can do it as a leader of someone. It's a small place, small carbon emissions. If we can figure it out, that means other people can now say Hawaii did it is leadership. Yes, it's exactly that. I think that's great. So talk about, you know, the carbon tax or the carbon ledger, if you will. Sure, the carbon budget is I think it's a very powerful concept because it it tells us if we're going to really play fair on the global scene and globally, we need to eliminate this much carbon this fast, then what do we need to do here? So we come back with a sense of urgency and a sense of analytics. Like here's our here's what we can do in renewable energy for electricity. Here's where we need to get to in transportation. Here's some things we can do in shipping, slow down, have more efficient fuels, use biofuels, but even just slowing down, it makes a big difference. And then same for aviation. So we have sort of a map to follow. And with the carbon budget concept, we can we can try to see, you know, where are our goals now? And then what do we need to accelerate to get there? So, you know, I think you come back with obviously that sense of urgency, but also that sense of shared purpose. And no matter no matter how small we are, we're all in this together. It's one world. And so everybody needs to do their part. Amen to that. So at the legislative briefing we covered some of this. And here you are, I should say fresh back, but recently back from COP 23, what's the mood in this session? I mean, they're talking about affordable housing. They're talking about coping with the changes in the tax reform bill in Washington. And the social safety net, lots of priorities. Sure. Are you asking them for a carbon budget here? So I would say there's lots of interest still in the legislature for moving the whole carbon carbon initiative forward. And so one of the things we can look at here, which is something that Dylan Arsben working pretty hard on, is how can we offset carbon emissions in other ways that are beneficial to the environment? And primarily for us, the opportunity is to plant trees. If we can plant trees in our native forest, just growing a tree, you know, the old, you know, breathe in oxygen and exhale. That's what, you know, what the trees do versus how do you send the high school kids out there? So we're doing two things. One is we are, we are, we're working on actual projects on the ground, one on Maui, one on the Big Island to, to, to have large scale tree planting. And but we're also working with California with these relationships that we've developed to try to get California certified first on the voluntary carbon market. And then on the compulsory carbon market, if we can do that, then the price of carbon is, is significantly better. And that way we can sell credits and, and use that money to plant the trees. So there's, there's some pretty exciting things we can do. So that would fund the tree plant? That would fund the tree plant. Effectively, polluters in other parts of the world would pay us to plant trees. It's like the barrel tax. You take it from one side and put it on the other side and change conduct that way. Yes, exactly. So what legislation do we need? What, what legislation is in the pipeline, if anything? So there's, there's, I guess there's a lot of initiatives moving forward that the sea level rise report just came out. So that's, we're all kind of digesting that. And, you know, that will guide policies sort of in the long, in the long run. And obviously, you know, we're just finishing the deadline for introduction of bills. So there's a lot of bills that people have proposed. So we're reviewing them now. And I guess the other part of our next step forward is moving the climate commission forward. So we've, we've met twice now with this very broadly constituted group. Public meetings. We can come and watch. Public meetings. Yeah. The next one will be the third one will be probably at the end of February. And, you know, we'll be looking at what kind of goals should we be setting, you know, can we use the carbon budget concept to, to help guide our goals and our implementation. And at the same time, what are the kinds of things we can do to, to not just mitigate in terms of lowering our climate emissions, but also to adapt such as, you know, adjusting to sea level rise in and manage retreat from the coastal. Well, there's another area of discretion within DNR anyway. And that is, you know, you have permitting and you have what kinds of administrative decisions, you know, and processes. Does what you learned at COP 21 affect your view of that? Does it affect policy? Implementing existing regulations? Does it call for new ones? Does it call for a different approach, for example, in dealing with applications for various permits and, you know, approvals and the like? Is that filtering through the L&R right now? So I would say the, the part that's permitting is more on the, on the adaptation side, you know, people are struggling obviously with, with wave inundation in coastal areas. So it gives us an opportunity to, to see what other, other states are doing that are coastal states that are, that are going to be similarly challenged, you know. The big question for us in Hawaii is, how do we protect our beaches at a time when houses and highways along the coastal areas are, are getting hit by waves? It's a, it's a tough decision. And, and so that's, it's, it's a case by case but we at least understand what our, what our priorities are and what our challenges are and try to, you know, brainstorm different paths to move forward so that we preserve our most important assets, which are our, our beaches and our coastal areas in this challenging time. Yeah. So what about the public? Is the public on board about this? When you deal with, you know, the people who come before the agency, are they sensitive to this issue? When they file papers with you, make arguments with you, have hearings with you, are they responding to, you know, what they should be, you know, considering in the way of a concern about climate change? I've, I have found that because I deal with a lot of people on a day-to-day basis in my regulatory role and I've, I've actually been quite surprised at sort of the extent to which people seem to be on the bus with respect to the gravity of this issue and then maybe wanting to help us, you know, steer the bus somewhere, some way to find, you know, reasonable rational solutions to get ourselves out of this mess. Really, there's been a lot of people that have been genuinely, genuinely sort of interested in what we're doing and would like to help and I'm not sensing a lot of sort of deniers that are around us in this state which is very pleasant experience. I almost wish for them sometimes just so we can have like, you know, a discussion about issues, you know, to keep the fire burning but they're not really out there for some reason in this wonderfully liberal state of Hawaii. That was something we learned at the, at COP 23 from the other U.S. states is that we're very fortunate that almost all of our elected leadership is on board with climate action, both mitigation and adaptation. There's a broad consensus in Hawaii about just the direction to move. We're not even fighting over whether climate change is real or not unlike the other states. There was some people out there, though Scott, you know, in Hawaii, even though we all agree it's an environmentally centric kind of society we have, who don't know that they need to care. So I'd like you to talk to Camera One out there and tell them why they need to care, really, really care about this issue, about COP 21 and about the state of Hawaii's participation in COP 21. There's Camera One. So the challenge is to me. Yeah, why not? Well, for all of you listening, thank you for listening and you live here in Hawaii and as we all know, our tourism, our economy is premised on our environment and the quality of our environment and caring for it. We all have a deep connection to it, including our host culture, Hawaiians have taught us how to care for this place and so we need to spend more attention to it. And so when we come together and look at our environment and how are we going to continue living here in a meaningful way and have a good well-being, then we need to look out to the future and how things are changing because our best science tells us that we know that the conditions that we built our current civilization on are changing. Fundamental conditions and temperature, wave, ocean action, rainfall, wind patterns are all shifting and so these are things we need to look to in order for us to continue to call Hawaii home and for it to be a place for our children to live at. Yeah, you gotta look past the sidewalk in front of your house, see the whole enchilada. So I have one last thing for you, Suzanne and that is what's gonna happen here? What's gonna happen in terms of COP 23 going to COP 24? What's gonna happen to those 2,000 people? They get 20,000, excuse me, 20,000 people. It's gonna be 30,000. What's gonna happen to those 11 states? How many more states will get on board? And what's gonna happen for DLNR in the future? Are you gonna stay bonded up, hopefully, with COP 24 and 5 and 6? So we'll certainly track how it's moving along and again, this is a participation on the international and national and local level, state and local governments. I sense, as with Scott and Sam, a kind of collective sense of now's the time. We've been talking about this for a while but now we're really seeing the impacts in terms of global climate change, in terms of our coastal areas, our storms, drought and the like and I don't think there's really any deniers to speak of here, not of any scale and so it's the opportunity for us all to work together to just work at solutions and some of them are big ideas and some of them are just chipping away at it day after day on every little opportunity and that's what I think we're all working on together and I appreciate that everyone in Hawaii is joining in this. Thank you, Suzanne. Suzanne Case, Scott, Glenn, Sam, Lama, great to have you guys here. Let me only say that if this isn't clear to everybody right now, wait till the storms this coming summer, then it'll be really clear. You'll come back then, right? Happy to. Happy to. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.