 Thanks for coming back after lunch. This is going to be an incredibly dynamic wide-awake presentation full of excitement and laughter. As you'll learn in this next session, our speaker is skilled across nearly all aspects of our industry. She's designed, built and managed many performative sites in the public and private sectors. This makes me consider whether user experience specialists are really generalists in everything else. Let's find out. Please put your hands together for Claire Mova-Sherrington. Did we have a good lunch? Yeah, we're gonna stay awake for a whole hour. We're all right. Okay. So my session today is an intro talk about UX. It's not focused particularly on Drupal, but it's focused on actually getting you to understand what UX is, why we do it and hopefully some tips and tricks and tools actually get you started with some UX. Does that sound good? Excellent. You are in the right place. So to get us there today we're going to explain what it is. I'm going to give you an example of UX problem just to resonate actually what it is. We're going to have a look at the different steps in UX because it's just not one activity. It's many parts and many activities. Also, I think it's really important to say that it is challenges with UX. So who am I? Who's this funny lady standing up here in front of all of you with a Kiwi accent? Well, I've been in this industry 12 years now, over 12 years. I've kind of bounced around a bit. I formally trained as a developer in C in the 90s and I also did graphic design and found it quite boring. Then natural progression, project management and then also into analysis and kind of dabbled a little bit in data, in data mining. I was really lucky to be able to work in the private sector and the public sector to really understand different users and different needs. Also, I think that helps me in this role is I've actually worked in customer service. I stood behind a counter for every Saturday and Sunday and I was doing my uni degree. So I understand what people want around customer service. Also, I really love academia. I've got a degree in computer science and I've just finished a master's. So I'm really interested in research and why we do these things and actually how other people have found research improving their theories. So that's me in a nutshell. Also, in my spare time, I am a dead keen mountain biker. You can see on the left there, there's my mountain bike kind of perched on a nice cliff face. And my two beautiful cats, Queen Tash and Stumpy. Key supporters in my career, those two cats. Now let's get onto something more serious. Now, user experience and its design. Now, what is it? I know we all banter this term around UX. You know, is it just another fad? Is it just something else? Well, really, simply, it's how we feel about something. You know, when you go to a user website or go to a shop and you have that, oh, stink. Oh, man, that was really awesome. That is the nutshell of UX. So it's a really simple diagram. You know, you kind of, oh, this is terrible. And then you have an experience and you feel happy about it. That's the feeling about user experience. That is the feeling about a product, system or service. Now, I know that's kind of a bit holistic and high level. So we just take that down to a technology level and it's simply a person's experience with the system. The website may be a bit of software. It's every aspect of that bit of software, though. It's the interface. It's the visual graphics, the colors. It could be a cultural using the wrong colors and it makes somebody feel not so happy about what they're doing. The actual physical interaction, you're making the click on a button here and then the next button's over here and then you're giving them bad instructions or you might have designed a system for a desktop and you're making them use that on a mobile phone. It's just not the same. Also, I wanted to just... So we've got this idea of, you know, it's about how a person feels about interacting with a product or a system. I think it's also important to point out that this is actually just a little bit of a bigger problem. Originally, when I started out in the 90s, I did quite a lot of work academically in human interaction and this diagram up here kind of gives you the wider circle of our human interaction beyond technology. See, if you look at the bottom half of that circle, our focus is digital and so you can see there that's like customer service and reading online, some of the examples we've already talked about. But it gaze your eyes up to the middle and up to the top there. I think we can all resonate with the fact that you've rung up somebody on the phone, you know, maybe a tax department or, you know, maybe a travel company and you might not have a good experience because you're, you know, pushing, please push one for this. Please speak what your problem's about. It's not quite digital, but it's still about the experience. My favorite is door handles, actually, right at the top there. I've had, you know, is it push or is it pull? So that circle there, you know, what we're dealing with is a little bit. There's just a wider world out there, too. So it's also, I think it's important just to remember that when you're dealing with your little UX problem, that actually the world around us has got many usable, there's many, many problems out there. Building on the fact that it's about feelings and building on the fact that it's a big world out there, there are many parts to UX that you kind of need to know about. So even up here, I was building this slide and I actually had other ones I wanted to put on there, like customer service, actually knowing how to deal with people, I think that's really important. So if we look up here, library science, information architecture, what I'm meaning there is how we put the information together. That's a big part of UX. If we go to, if we've got any marketers in the room, market research and analytics, that's really important. What users have previously done on a website, you know, what's their behaviors, can we track that? And if we've got any communications project managers, directors, we all know that communications is really important because we need to communicate this to clients and then end users and then the person has to pay the bills. So there's a lot of aspects to UX that you kind of need to just have a handle on. I think for my background, I'm very lucky to be able to work in some of these areas but it's something that you can always build on and read on and ask Google. I want to move on that we know what it is now. We know that there's many components to UX but why should we do it? One of the biggest things I've found in the last couple of years is actually selling UX to a product owner, a project manager, a client, even sometimes other members in your team. Why do you want to do that UX stuff? It's kind of like, yeah, we know what we're doing. God, I know how to build that. I buy books online. So this slide I've actually used quite a lot externally and internally to just say, hey guys, it's about customer loyalty. If you've got a happy customer, are they going to use your product and service again? Pretty much. And they might even tell their mum and their friend to do it. Hey, this is a really good site, really easy to use. I've done it, I've done it myself. And for more of the money-minded aspect of selling, return on investment, conversion rates, if they're happy with the site, they're going to come back and they're going to probably make their order bigger. It's an online site. Conversion rates, you have, you know, a client-based free. I think this is a two-way street. Productivity and efficiency. So what I mean there is, you've got an online site. You've got the Strupel site, and people are maybe buying books on it. And they don't need to use the feedback as much. So, you know, I can't do this book transaction because the site is really hard to use. So they email you. Or they might bring you and say, oh, I can't manage to get XYZ. I can't add shipping. If your site was easy to use and you understood about the user, you might see a drop in those calls. And also flip side for me, as a user, if you had the site that was easy to use, it saves me time. So I'm a busy person. I'm off mountain biking. And if a site's really quick and easy, yes, that's going to be the site I'm going to use. And finally, happy customers. Well, what can I say about happy customers? They keep coming back. Happy team, that's what we want. We want to retain our clients. So I really recommend that that's actually worked really well. Those four points really can help you get a little bit more UX in that project and support its importance. Now, I want to change gear. I actually want to talk about a problem. Let's have a look at a plastic UX problem. Now, Wellington. I'm from Wellington. It's the capital of New Zealand. We've got 400,000. It's a fantastic city. In summer, we have events and we have music and we have wine festivals and it's just absolutely stunning. It's all across the city. It's very diverse. But I have got a really busy calendar and I've got lots of friends. I want to go for these events with my friends and I don't know where they're located. But lucky me, Wellington City Council has put out a phone app to tell me where all the events are, what they're about, lucky me. I was so excited about two months ago when this came out. I could put it on my phone, my Android. I was like, yeah, I'm going to know where to go and I can share with my friends the choice. Here's the phone app. It's called Summer City. We do have fine weather in Wellington and it kind of tells me the dates and kind of scroll up and down like this. So that's quite cool. It's kind of in date order. It's kind of a bit of a plus, isn't it? Refresh it. Oh, okay. I like lost bird. Okay, I clicked on one of the offerings from the first screen and it's telling me that this is the screen I get. There's no location on there. How long it's going to be. Okay, that's kind of cool. It just tells me about it. I'm thinking about, I might find out where the location is or I might share it with my friend or see how busy it's my calendar. Oh, that button at the top. That kind of looks like the next step. So I kind of came up and went, oh, it's a favourite. Okay, kind of cool. Come back later and compare to other events I like. Share by email. Not bad. I can share with my friends by email. Facebook. Not all my friends are on Facebook. Twitter, maybe. And then messaging. I'm like, hmm, how do I know where the event is? How could I maybe save it into my calendar? Just to see if I've got any else on. Mobile phone app location. So I didn't feel like I got the best user experience out of this application. I was a bit disappointed. I had all these high hopes. This is a classic kind of example for UX. It's like they didn't think about this is a mobile thing. You might want to actually use it on location as you're walking around. And for me, this lovely machine is also my diary. So let's just move on to more project stuff. Now that we understand what UX is and why we do it and we've got an example, I just want to move into making this quite a practical kind of session looking at different activities and I hope you guys have got enough knowledge to give some stuff a go. And before we start that, I just want to, it's all not rose-tinted glasses. It's actually a bit of a balancing act. We'll have a look at some of the different activities, but I know everybody out there, we do have to balance things. We've got user needs, we've got technical requirements and we've got business constraints. You know when you're in a project, you've got these kind of things batting around. So you need to fit an activity to the size and scale your project and also to three aspects. So the moving parts of UX. This is quite a famous concept that was brought out in the early 2000s by a guy called Jesse Gar. Now I really like this way of thinking about UX just because of a few things. How it says abstract to concrete. So you kind of like the woolly stuff at this end. So left side is the woolly stuff and the concrete stuff is on the right hand side. Also I like how it builds on itself. And this is really what UX is. All the different activities in UX build on the previous activity. So you kind of got a strategy where you want to go, a scope, how big is this monster? Then a structure, how are we going to attack it and what's our plan? Then a skeleton where we start building stuff out and then a surface. What's it actually going to look like? I'm not going to cover all these areas but I'm going to pick a couple that I think are going to be a good starter. And also to say that not every project actually does all these steps. It's always to do a scale and size and time. And probably the only correction that I'm trying to find the last two years is seeing navigational design down in the skeleton with the rise of things like responsive design and mobile computing. I do feel that needs to come a bit down the track a little bit this way. Even move into structure. Because the way we design our navigation is nearly fundamental. It's becoming more fundamental in how we do projects now. But this has stood the test of time. It's now 13 years old so that's pretty a lifetime in IT. Also another way to think about it is I've been in IT for a while now and another way is to think in circles. So some project managers and some business owners and some clients might struggle with the idea of actually structuring a structure skeleton surface so they might actually resonate more in these kind of grouping. Like the old kind of let's do some requirement and let's do some architecture. You might actually see these terms might work better but covertly you're actually kind of more going on the strategy, scope, structure, path. That language might just help you start adding UX to your projects. Let's have a look at our left-hand side. So this is all the fluffy stuff. The fluffy stuff is important because we need to know what the client, what the client really wants from a project. I've worked on a few projects now and this gets missed out and the project just blows up because we actually don't know what we're doing. We've got all these really energetic people running around trying to deliver a project but you actually don't know what the purpose is and then you waste a lot of money. And you can make this quite a short exercise so what we're trying to really do here is to understand what this project's about. Step one, you really need to get the right people in the room and actually understand why they want to do this project, what success looks like. That's usually one of my key questions to ask them. What's this, if this is going to be the perfect project and you want the perfect product, give me a description and this will help you right throughout your project. Some of my techniques is I meet with project stakeholders, maybe little mini meetings. Work quite well if you've got big organisation. Face-to-face are very important. You can't really do this one over the phone and also as a government client get their statement of intent. That's what we call in New Zealand but basically the plan, what that agency's meant to be doing and delivering for the next three or five years there will be the purpose in that document. Also their business cases are usually quite good too. They should have those in there. So they're my kind of top tips for actually getting that down on paper and usually it's like about five sentences what they actually want to achieve and make that known to your whole project group. One of the bigger areas is user needs. Now the next session after me, Chris is going to be focusing on that more but I think it's important to start with such a big area to start thinking about it in the way I do it. Now the goal is very simple and you need to understand the audience of what you're building for. Are they mothers? Are they construction workers? Are they somebody of a really busy social life and doesn't know where the locations are or those events that she wants to go to? And the only way you're going to do that is actually talk to your users. I know it's scary, they won't bite your head off and it does sound like a lot of work but you can make it easy yourself. So techniques I've used and horses for courses, size of budget you've got a lot of options here and I've got a few tools that will really help too on the next couple of slides. Interviews, talking to your user. Focus groups, where you get a small number of people maybe four to six or eight and get them in a room for, say, an hour. Ask them some questions about their experiences. That's quite nice, they bounce off each other. That's good. Watching people use sites, that's a very easy one to do and user surveys. Now there's a few things that can help you get started here and actually with the user surveys annual user surveys if you can usually when I have a client and you do one try and encourage them to do it the following year and they might have a, how you find a site. So some of the things I use user research, these three products here Doodle is a really nice online organising tool where you can just get, herd those cats for your user groups so giving them a section of time, great tool. Skype, I've used that several times when New Zealand is quite long and sparse there so that Wellington Christchurch Auckland I've had some users down in Christchurch so I've actually got them on Skype and I've been doing like that. The product to the right is a really interesting one I just wanted to mention it is when you transcribe, say an interview or user group this here is an open source for the software where you put your words in basically and it comes out with themes. It's a really nice open source tool that I've used a lot in research now and it's really delivered. It's a bit hard to get in source sometimes but persevere and you'll get a really good set of results. But there are many, many tools like I haven't really settled on one good voice recording tool so if you're an interviewer and you want to record and I've got one on my phone, I've got a laptop so there's many out there I haven't really found one I liked. User Surveys? Well, hey, what can I say? Drupal. I've used a survey reform module many, many times before and I find it absolutely fantastic so setting up a survey on the site you might be replacing or a community site just the audience you're trying to target you're looking to actually have a look and ask them questions about what you can do with the site or what's in the process and basically you could leave it there and re-run it the next year so the client really likes stuff like this it's a survey for this project but then they can re-run it and benchmark it the following year. Again, there's other products out there I've got to mention that one because that's also one I've used in the past which is pretty good but you can't use the Drupal module. I'm just going to move along from scope a little bit and we're going to look at the kind of requirements area now I know requirements is kind of like it has to be done I'm going to pick on content requirements and technical requirements I'm going to pick on content requirements because I think it's quite overlooked and it could be quite good for Drupal 8.2 because of all the improvements that I've just seen this morning from the keynote is content requirements is about those poor people that have to put the content in the system mainly focused around them and why I want to focus on it is I find that's one of the sticking points of projects you get to a point where you're about 70% through a project and then there's this major problem with adding a content type or something like that or a bit of content or videos falling apart or I've got a store of these files and how's it going to work so I have found that's been quite a problem in the past and the way of doing that is actually again, you want to talk to the people face to face but this is starting to get quite complex it might be about workflow you might publish a bit of content you might need to review it then it needs to go live then it's got to be embargoed then it needs to be archived then it needs to go back to the graph think about doing diagrams that's a really easy way to start even just get a piece of paper and start scribbling it down bits of tools and techniques you can use but diagrams are a really good way to level the playing field like techniques I've used personally is writing down the user requirement doesn't usually work to the developers they like the pictures there's a technique called UML which is Unified Modeling Language that's a series of diagrams I've got a couple to show you and then actually describing drawing out those people that use the content to get them to describe what they do so let's use a case and then developing stories which if you agile agile background you basically write a little summary of what they do have a look at the technical requirements then I'll show you some tools I've used to help me document so the technical specification of the requirements the feature set is basically having a look at what group of features that you want on your site a feature could be on the login I want to buy a book I want to look up my house on a map I want to add an event to my calendar that could be a feature so that's actually looking and describing it enough to get developer to kind of get a bit of an idea enough to get the designer to start thinking about it that's how long is a piece of string when you're writing the requirements up you don't want to overdo documentation so how do you do it? well again, workshops you can see this iteration and importance of actually communication workshops talking to the end user also building on what you've just done so that user research you just did and that business workshop you did you're going to go back and have a look at that too so business owner said that that map was really important you're really going to have a look at what the requirements are around that and this is really important you can see that coming through an agile now too you're building up the needs the priorities will show through let's have a look at some examples so that's that unified modelling language so I know it's a bit technical but basically this diagram here you've got a person on the left-hand side and he's got an event he does an event next event occurs that's the second line, third line fourth line between the different events you can see the arrows going back so for a programmer or trying to explain to your client what happens a simple diagram like this person A types the username username, message appears it's a message saying that it's not the right password you can see how you can easily explain the diagram I've got a few more too so again this one here is about a customer and it's a telephone catalogue and it's sorts of things a customer could do in this certain website telephone catalogue check status, place order full orders, established credit and there's another one again quite similar this website or this activity's got a shipper a salesperson, a supervisor and the salesperson can place a recurring order you can build up and see from the diagram what one act is going to do and again you don't need all the clash software these three here I've used these from the past Xgate is an open source graphic software it's quite at all rounder I quite enjoy using it Microsoft Visio's been around for a really long time and again it's very good for doing new amount and my favourite at the moment because I seem to change around a little bit in my balsamic it does this sort of diagraming and you can do wire framing you can easily get it online and you can buy packages and also the thing I really enjoy about it is my client can log in and leave me comments so she wants to do it at three o'clock in the morning and review wireframe she can and for all the project managers in the room we're going to put all these requirements that's her project management tools I've been using for the last two years Trello, nice lightweight product as you can see I've taken a screenshot of one of our projects and it's kind of agile and then red mine is a very big sort of piece of software it takes a bit of time to understand right, my favourite information architecture probably one of the more famous activities of UX basically what we're trying to do is organise the information and present it back in a logical way there are many many techniques and outputs to this area this is quite well developed so I've got a few here and I've got some really good tools that can support you in this analytics, again going back to the website seeing how somebody's used the website before one of these searches what's the top 10 searches of this website you're rebuilding so if it's a book website are they always going to find categories as there's some popular categories you might want to look at that and how you can present that better your new site card sorting, again you might have a whole lot of topics going back to the book example you have a lot of categories, cars animals, fruit and then automobiles bikes and you might want to get all those pieces of all those topics on pieces of paper and get people to start grouping them and then seeing what your computers are doing that's also another interesting way of seeing how other people organize information outputs site map, evidently where all the information sits and maybe a content model how the bits of content relate to each other there's some really nice tools this one here, optimal sort on the left hand side there's those cards on it and you can see pictures, weapon drag so this one here, the last product we just drop the cards in and we can group them together for us as UX people we get all the stats so we know when a person's dragged everything and it's really easy to send out to groups of people like you can set this up send it out say leave it three days you might do it through twitter, you might do it through the company's facebook account whatever or through your user group that you've obviously already interviewed and you'll get results in a couple of days it's brilliant and again, you might have a site map, you've organized your content and you're arguing over it this is a great tool, this is TreeJap this basically takes your site map, you set up five questions can you find the information about the bike you send it out and again as you have results and you get an idea if your site map is going to work interaction design or getting the advice basically this is looking at how somebody uses an aspect or a feature of the site for example, logging in so you're going to drill down and actually see how a person logs into the site and this is an area that you really build on everything you've done before, if you use a research why the business wants it and again it comes back to talking to those users and again I think one of my real secrets is get my mum to explain it so it might be logging into something and say mum, how would you do this and you sit with her and it's gold or it might be the flatmate or it might be the neighbour but it's just good to see how other people think about a problem there's many many outputs this area again this is quite a mature activity this is the U.S. flow diagram storyboarding you've probably heard of wireframes they're quite commonly used and again UML so let's just have a look at two products this here, pencil it's an open source wireframing tool and I'll show you what a wireframe is in a second and again and I just put this year out at the bottom this is fantastic there's a bunch of wireframes that you can just download and start using so you can actually build a wireframe which I'll show you right now in a matter of about 10 minutes so this one here is one from a project that I did about a year ago and this is a pencil one and basically you can see that you've got a mock-up of a screen this was a video catalogue and then I'm explaining what each of the parts of the screen does so this one we went back to go already has a whole bunch of elements search boxes already in there so you could be signing away in a matter of minutes this is a balsamic one just to show you the different styles now I put information design in here because I think it's pretty important and it's quite overlooked and what it means is when you get a website it's just not quite working whether it's, you know, is it about how pretty it is or how the flow is it actually might be about the information you're trying to show we all love the tube map you know the Wellington I mean Wellington the London Tube Map of all its line, how simple it is that's a key example, a brilliant example actually of information design if you saw the original maps of the London Tube Map you might be able to read it but they came along and went this is an information design problem so I just wanted to point out that if you really come to log heads it's just not working get you a visual designer get you UX designer to say hey guys, is this really more of an information design problem than actually anything else infographics, design guideline that sort of area again it's a whole topic right, right we're getting right down the far end now we're kind of like at the skeleton end interface design there's a difference between this and interaction design this is actually bringing it all together this is actually about getting into a prototype getting all those different aspects together and making it cohesive you know how you get some sites and there's one bit that's really really cool and then there's another bit that's totally different you kind of go oh I'm using this bit and it's really really good, excellent and the flows will a little kind of face to me that they haven't quite done this area quite right and I do find one of the and this is actually quite hard to get time and money in a project because it's near the end or this seems like a lot of money to do a prototype you get that kind of pushback I'd really think about prototyping I've got a few ideas there these two here introduced by Cure's New Zealand company from Wellington called Boost and you can actually do screenshots and run people through things it's a kind of a mock-up based idea by Balsamic you can use another product on top of it and actually do run-throughs of things with using wireframes that's what we're doing it and then there's also this product here again a different way of thinking about it again but you still get feedback so it's good in a couple of days overnight sort of thing and chalk mark so basically you can give the user a task go in everybody wants to press that button sign up say to banana.com and you can actually track the user's behaviour really nice navigation design again I'm not quite sure if Jess has got it right now before this new technology but this is actually looking at how everything fits together so how many level of navigation should a phone have should even have navigation should it be a drop-down menu should it be just search, those big questions I think user testing is quite important in this aspect and again mock-ups going back to chalk mark going back to this sort of product that will help you solve this problem right now coming to the end I haven't bored you to death but I've got you too excited I've got to let you down easy there are some challenges found with UX some challenges but not to put your project methodology, team buy-in and working in a multi-vendor environment project methodologies everybody here you've heard of agile there's iteration, there's waterfall they all attack UX in a different way so for example agile is quite good for UX but what I've found is that those project managers and business owners kind of get a bit confused why are we paying for UX at the back end of a project so usually you kind of this is a really good idea, yeah UX let's do it right through the project but about 70%, 80% mark, they don't really want to pay for it anymore and it's like running over and they want to, you know, features so I find that hard really, really hard and just where it fits in team buy-in again, you know you got your internal team some people might not really understand what UX is so they're kind of like, ooh, what's this new darker going on here, ooh, don't know about this so I find that you do spend a bit of time educating even your internal team going hey it's about the users and it's about this so to help that I'd actually do a little session at the start of a project if you are taking on that UX role to really explain it use a couple of these kind of slides easy and then finally multi-vendor kind of have a big project and you've got UX involved, you might have a digital design agency, you might have somebody special in search engine optimization then you've got a developer everybody's got their own idea about it it's really hard and some other challenges I've kind of brought this up already responsive design there's many different break points and all these different size screens and different purposes mobile phones is about being on the go a desktop is about doing lots of work if you're writing at SA you might be writing up your presentation there's different needs and different user experiences how do we document it how do we fit into a project cycle correctly, how do we support the developers to get all those different requirements and user experience stuff it's been very challenging and just some other ones I just wanted to throw in there the technology around the internet of things that's progressing and how the user experience would be evolved from that basically what I mean by internet of things is my cup is going to talk to the beaker in the end and my fridge is going to talk to my shopping list on my phone how is the user experience going to be evolved such different sorts of items relating to each other server design that's more the end to end bless us, we're IT we might not control the very first contact a user has with a company we kind of get sandwiched in the middle so that's kind of hard and then gain accessibility needs, we know it's all important but it kind of gets shoved down here somewhere and at some point that's going to be more of a problem I think with laws changing governments making it more of a mandate so in conclusion it's kind of like leaving a sad note in conclusion your designing experience let's go back right to the beginning it's about that feeling you're trying to make that customer happy just remember that happy customers and there's many steps in the UX process now don't beat yourself up if you don't do all of them but I hope I've picked a few today that I feel are really essential especially using needs and knowing where you're going to start and grab one of these tools and have a go trying to get a few people at your work to buy in to UX too will really help start a little group at work or just with your other peers and I really do want to say there are some challenges but they can be overcome you know maybe five years ago there were other challenges there were really little phones that weren't smart so over time we had different challenges and we'll overcome them now I have got some time for questions how's my timekeeper oh good okay has anybody got any questions or is everybody asleep cool very good question the question is what are the critical UX activities you should do does that sound very right okay what I'll do I'm just going to quickly go back to a slide I think it's going to pick up here right for me I think the key kind of activities are always do your most your strategy you need a plan you need to understand what the wider holistic direction of the project's going that's a really small exercise it doesn't need to be terribly elaborate I've got about five questions at work they are kind of even if I don't do it myself project manager you need to do this and you document it I think that's a critical easy tick got exercise I really love the idea of user research but I know it's really hard but do push for it and it could be easier getting a few customers in a room for an hour and bribe them with somebody's baking that's a really so you have to be a good baker so I think that's the next one I think it's really important I think one will really bite you in the bum if you don't do it sorry to be so crude but the interaction design if you kind of just leave it over here and don't worry about it you'll spend so much time unpicking problems later spending so much money to try and fix those problems that you kind of didn't look at originally it's worthwhile having a look at it even if you really have to stick your heels in and say project manager business owner can I have a couple of days just look at this problem and then information architecture card sort maybe use those programs and interface design probably it is the next one so overall that's probably how I'd navigate that does that answer your question good question the question is how to cost out UX to a customer I think the first thing you do is get the buy-in from the customer before you give them the budget and I've actually been analysing past projects to have a look how much UX has been costing and I do a little bit of project management so this might be blooming a bit high but you could say about 15% total project you could cover in UX so you might have 100k budgets around 15% that's a good question to ask because some projects require quite a lot of visual design and some don't so if it's quite a basic one yes but I have been in situations where you know real glossy sites and you kind of have lots of that kind of you could blow out to 20 you know easy it also depends what designer you have to yeah so actually that's a good question we've been doing the last couple of projects agilee just for everybody else it's basically looking at how you break down the costing probably not to the detail of buttons and things it's usually groups of activities the last project I just did we went to the client and said what activities would you like to do and I went lots of user research so I was really happy it's great and we costed out on the types of activities and then that actually worked quite well and then because she's like oh lots of research looked really good for her boss she got some really good results visual design was just lumped as a visual design cost and really because there was so much upfront work visual designers knew exactly what they were doing and actually the cost went down yeah and it makes them quite happy with visual designers you know they kind of stomp off you got yeah you know I'm poof okay the question is do my projects do I consider accessibility sorry accessibility issues now for me personally I've got an uncle that's blind so personally I try my best to always do because I already know what his needs are so that particular user case is quite close to my heart we have many government clients in catalyst IT accessibility is quite important and it's really nice to be able to do those requirements private clients not so much they usually wanted to spend on other features so I find that really hard but there are some things you can really just do around the content accessibility adding tags to titles and using the right headings so these tips and tricks you can just teach your clients that actually help with those demands of accessibility requirements but it is nice working with government clients that say you have to do it does that answer your question cool I am off the hook if you've got anything other questions please just come by me I'm happy to chat thank you