 Welcome to Looking to the East. I'm your host, Stephen Zercher. Our show focuses on a variety of issues, mostly in the Japan-Korea area. We talk about politics and other pursuits as well. Today, we're focusing on something a little lighter than most of the shows that have been on Think Tech. Obviously, most are focusing on political conditions in Europe right now, but we're looking at something that I think will be maybe a bit more enjoyable to learn about. We're going to be looking at baseball America's pastime as it's played in Asia, in Japan, and also in Korea. We have two very special guests with us for this show. We have Jerry Sands. Jerry is a former player in Japan and Korea, a professional baseball player. And we're going to talk with him about his experiences of playing baseball both in the United States and in Asia. And we have Trevor Raichura. Trevor is an educator like myself here in Japan and his side job, or maybe Trevor, it is your main job, is promoting the Hanshin Tigers English News, which focuses on one of the most popular baseball teams in Japan in the Kansai area where we're both Trevor and I live. Thank you guys very, very much for participating in the show today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Yeah, so Jerry, yeah, you're welcome. Jerry, why don't we start with you? I did a little research about you. I saw that you had played professional baseball now for 14 years altogether. You were drafted in 2008 in the 25th round. So I don't think they do that anymore, right? I think MLB has eliminated those later round drafts now. But you got in and you ended up going into professional baseball in the United States, both as a minor and a major league level. And then, yes, after a number of years of doing that, then you turned your career to international playing here in Asia. So let's start with how you developed your love of baseball and how that led to your entering the major leagues. Can did you start baseball when you were young, like many kids in the United States? Yeah, I think I was just kind of the usual story of growing up. And my dad was not much of an athlete, but he obviously wanted us to be involved in sports. He believes in it quite a bit when it comes to the teamwork and the work ethic and him and my mom are both blue-collar. So they just, like I said, pushed us towards playing sports. And they always kind of said, like, you don't have to have a job and we'll support you if you're playing sports and you're working hard at it. Wonderful parents. Yeah, well, I still, like I said, in the summers, I was still working. I still worked at my mom worked at a little farmer's market. I still work at the farmer's market. And in high school, I worked with my now wife's, my father-in-law, and he was putting in septic tank. So I still had to work. And like I said, I still had to, if I wanted to do things and put gas in my truck to run around in high school, I needed some little bit of extra change. So, but yeah, it wasn't a, my brother and I've got a younger brother who's two years younger. And we just kind of the same thing. I mean, we grew up playing sports competitive. We had a neighborhood and played sports. And baseball and football were the two that really stuck with me. I was the best at. And I just kind of ran them on and went into high school, like I said, playing football and baseball. And I actually had more offers to go to, to play football in college than I did baseball. But yeah, I just kind of looked longevity and pro potential. I mean, obviously everybody says I want to be a pro baseball player, but realistically, it's a very long shot. So, I mean, I knew that obviously I wanted to go and I wanted to be able to kind of walk after I played college ball. So I wanted to play, I wanted to play baseball. And like I said, hoping, hoping the professional levels would pan out. I thought baseball was my best bet. So I decided to go play baseball. And then I went to a little small division two school. That's a real long story why I ended up there. But I just got the opportunity to play and they wanted me. So I went and played three years, played really well. And then got drafted and ended up playing pro ball. And even getting drafted, it's another long story of kind of getting overlooked and ended up until the 25th round. And just decided I needed to make the most of it and go ahead and get my foot in the door and pro baseball. And I debuted in the big leagues three years later. So. Yeah. You know, you raise the point of how difficult it is to get into the majors, but you did it. Yeah. And there's not a lot of people from the 25th round that make it into the big show. And you did do that. So that's a remarkable accomplishment. So when you were drafted 25th, were you excited that you were drafted or were you disappointed it was so far down or how did you feel about that at the time? It was definitely mixed. The process is crazy. I mean, you go, I went to numerous, they have these pre-draft workouts where they invite you. People they kind of want to see a little bit more of. So I went to a few of those and talked to scouts and scouts. They're all, I mean, it's a business. So they're trying to get you as cheap as possible. And then we're trying to obviously set up our future so we don't want to go as cheap as possible. So it's one of those games you kind of play with each other of how much do you want, what do you want? And a lot of times, obviously when you get drafted higher, you make more money. So they want to know where they can possibly draft you the lowest and still get you and pay you the least amount of money. But at the same point in time, they want to make sure they get you. So it's a big game. I don't know if something got caught up in that but I had the impression that I was gonna go much earlier than that. And I was playing summer baseball at the time and the coach gave me the day off because it was kind of known that I was gonna get drafted. Who knows when, but I knew I was gonna get drafted at some point. So he gave me the day off to kind of enjoy it. And I sat at the computer and listened for my name for a few hours. And once it started getting later and later, I was pretty annoyed. And I told my dad, let's get ready to go. And I was gonna pack up my stuff and I was gonna go play the game that night. And I ended up getting the call that I was gonna get drafted. And once again, I was still upset because they had told me I was supposed to go earlier and money's going out the window, different things. But I ended up obviously, I kind of just realized I can't do a whole lot more in college. I need to go ahead and like I said, get my foot in the door and throw ball. And you were drafted by the Dodgers, was it? The Dodgers, yes sir. Okay, very good. All right, so that started your professional career then in the Dodgers minor leagues, I would assume is where you got started. And you said three years after that you actually were called up to play. Right. Yeah, the Dodgers yourself. So despite the maybe kind of a little bit of a rocky start you were able to move up to the major level and actually start in or play in a Dodgers game. That must have been incredible. It was crazy. So it was a lot of fun, but it flew by real quick. Okay. All right, so I do wanna talk about your international career. I think since my show's focusing on Asia and so forth and you did have a professional career here, what led you to begin to think about moving to Asia and playing baseball here? Did you know that baseball was played in here? Sometimes I don't know if Americans know that baseball is actually played outside of America. Yeah. Or Canada too. Sorry Trevor, I gotta include Canada. Yeah. I think Mr. Baseball kind of gives it away for a lot of us. Like I said, I know I was, I'm probably just on the age bracket that really knows, Mr. Baseball is getting a little bit older for some of these younger guys now, I think. So I don't even know if a lot of guys have probably seen it, but I've seen it quite a few times. So I obviously knew about Asian baseball and I knew there was a little bit different culture. Once I got into pro ball, I started learning a little bit more. And especially once I got kind of to the big leagues and AAA to where you get to that age and that kind of category of guys that are really not sure where their career is going or where they're at in their career. And you kind of are like, I would like to go to Asia to obviously for your career-wise and just opportunity, but also monetarily you want to make a little bit of money before you get out of the game. There's such a short window that you have to take advantage of it. So like I said, once I started hanging around with a little more company and like I said, in AAA, you get guys that might have been over to Asia and they come back and they signed with a AAA or different things. So I started learning a little bit more about it. And then before I ended up going to Korea a couple of years before that, Oryx actually was talking to me in Japan and they were talking about me going over there. And I- So you were being scouted? I was being scouted before, yeah. A couple of years before and the Indians wouldn't let me go at the time. Okay. And so that kind of fell through. They ended up signing Brent Morel and a couple of guys. So that didn't go through, but I ended up, obviously I was still on the radar, I think, over there. And it was obviously on my radar because I like I said, you have such a short window and you kind of get that clock on you. This is kind of where I'm at in my career. Do I want to keep scraping and try to make it over here? Do I just want to- At the AAA level? At the AAA level, I mean, for me it went from big leagues, AAA to I couldn't find a job in 2017. Two years after Oryx was looking at me, I couldn't find a job. And I ended up playing an independent ball and then I went to AA, back to AA when I was, I mean, 27 years old. So yeah, it goes really quick. So once I got to that point, I was like any opportunity I can get in Asia, I want to take advantage of it. Obviously I wanted to be engulfed in the culture. I thought it was a really cool experience. But I also- Had you been to Asia before? I had not, no. But you were interested in it? Yeah, I was just interested. I've heard a lot of things. And like I said, and in 2012, I played with, I think it was 2012, I played with Josh Fields who played for Tokyo, who played third base for Tokyo and he ended up being a scout form after that and stuff. But I played with him. So I got to talk to him about Japan and I can't remember who else. I played with a few different players that played over there and then came back. So once again, Brett Leach was over here. I can't think of all the players. But I know- There seems to be a circulation now of players coming to Japan and going back. Right, yeah. Or getting, like I said, coming to Japan or going to Korea and getting a better opportunity after they go. So a lot of times beforehand, it was kind of like the end of your career. If you were coming over here, not that you were coming over here to die, but it was your career was kind of on that you were just trying to scrape a little bit more. And now it's like you can come over here and rejuvenate your career. And you got the Marcus Thames and the guys that come over here and not Marcus Thames, excuse me, Eric Thames that come over here and play really well and go back and make a lot of money. So yeah, so a lot of guys are going back. And that's one thing I wanted to talk with you about is like Carter Stewart, the university who turned down his opportunity to play in the majors that came here. But before I do that, just tell me briefly about you arrive in Korea and I've been to games in Korea. It's an unbelievable, the stadium atmosphere. Right. So what was your impressions? And maybe we can lump that into playing at Koshien. Koshien is the stadium where the Hanshin Tigers play. I mean, my goodness, that must have been wonderful. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And once again, you have the, you see the movies where people tell you about it, but then you get into the actual stadium and you've got the cheerleaders and the fans and every player has a song coming up to bat and all the fans know it. And you got the glitter jerseys and everybody's got different guys and the pictures. And they are really all about it and they're true fans. And that's what was really cool about it. Like I said, they come to the game and they actually pay attention and they actually care. In the States, it's kind of like, you might be a fan of a team, but you don't go to the game and you go to the game hoping they're going to win, but you don't go to the game hoping that that pitcher for your team that day is going to do really well and number one through nine in that lineup is going to do really well. It seems like the Asian culture, when they go to the obviously Hanshin Tigers fans, they definitely want you to win. But they also feel it's a different feeling and in Korea, it's a different feeling that they're there to watch you, support you and it's a lot of fun. Yeah. So often there's a lot of books written like Whiting's books and so forth that talk about the dynamics of baseball in Japan versus the United States. So and one of the things that sports journalists talk about when they're talking to foreign players is the adjustments that you have to make either because the pitching is different or the way the game is played. You seem to have done a very good job. I'm watching you at Hanshin and I'm sure you did the same thing in Korea. Can you describe briefly some of the adjustments you had to make as you played ball internationally as opposed to in the States? Yeah, I mean, first of all, you just have to get over the culture differences. Once again, it's just, and I compare it obviously like a Dominican player comes to the United States. Yeah. So there's some differences there. And I have to adjust. You're in a different country, they do get things different. So I would always tell, if I ever got, like I said, once I felt like I was a veteran after you get about three months in the country, you feel like you can tell somebody else what to do when they come in. But if I ever got on first base with another foreign guy or whatever, they were new or I just, I would always tell them like, don't sweat the small stuff. Like the Korean culture does things how they want to do it and they kind of expect you, you're in their country. So you should try to abide by that and don't sweat the small stuff, just go with it. And I'm pretty easy going and so that really didn't bother me a whole lot when it came to the culture of how they do things or then you go into the baseball culture of how they practice, how they pitch, how they prepare, how they, and it's the same way. It's like you get yourself ready, but at the same point in time you can't get worked up about, I used to do it this way. I do it this way. Like you get yourself prepared how you need to, but at the same point in time you have to show them a little bit of respect of that's how they've done it for however long the game has been played over there. You know what I mean? So. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you did a good job. You know, I've been living in Japan and I've watched baseball. I remember Kevin Mitchell, you know the famous San Francisco giant. He was a MVP. He was only here a couple of months. He just all of a sudden disappeared. And that happens every once in a while. The players will come over here and they just don't find it comfortable and they take off. So that's to your credit that you were able to adjust and thrive. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like I said, a different lifestyle. It's a different, and especially if guys have played in the big leagues a long time and they get over here and it's not quite the same. In Korea, you carry your own bags everywhere you go and get, you know, it's just, Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. Simple stuff. You get changed at the hotel and you wear your jersey to the field and then you pack up your stuff and you get it back on the bus in your jersey and you go back to the hotel and you, you know, I mean, you put your laundry in the hallway. That's how they do it in Asia. They, they have showers and they have post game meals in the States. And so it's just, some of the things are different but it's not, it's not that in the grand scheme. It's not that big of a deal. And you just kind of adjust and I had a blast. I loved it. I loved both. I loved experiencing new cultures. I loved meeting new guys. I mean, everybody, like I said, you don't meet many real bad people when it comes to the Asian culture. Everybody's there to do their job. And that's how a lot of the Asians that between the Koreans and the Japanese, the players look at it. It's more of their job. They're serious about it. In the States, there's a lot of entitlement and a lot of egos and things like that. So I enjoyed it. Everybody was there to work hard and do your job and win games. And that's kind of my MO and that's my personality. So I loved it. All right. I'm going to switch over to Trevor. Trevor, let's talk about your websites, the promotion that you do of the Hanshin Tigers focusing on those of us that are living here in Japan that are not fluent in Japanese. It's a great service that you do. So tell me, how did you get interested in doing this yourself? You're a Canadian. So maybe baseball is not your first go-to sport, but it's become your go-to sport here. So tell us about your site. I know you're exactly right that baseball wasn't on my radar really until I came to Japan. And then NPB in particular wasn't on my radar until like around 2014, maybe 2013. Like my first true enjoyable experience of Japanese baseball and not to say I hated it before, but I just didn't pay much attention to it was the 2013 Japan Series where Tanaka got that save in game seven against the Giants after having pitched a complete game loss in game six. It was just really, yeah, really exciting. And then I was just at a stage in my career as a teacher where I wasn't getting much fulfillment out of what I was doing. And one of my friends who's kind of a career coach said, well, why don't you, what's your, what would you like to do? And I was like, well, I always wanted to be a sports journalist. And so he just gave me, he put that little bug in my ear. Like, well, why don't you try doing that? Like just on the side, just do a blog for like, I don't know the Tigers or something. And really until then, I hadn't paid much attention to the Tigers. And so that little plug from my friend was really what got me started. And I said, okay, well, I'll start with just the foreign players. Like I'll focus on them because they're the ones that maybe need some exposure in English that they're not getting, both for fans that might be here and also for like their families and friends back home where like at the time it was Matt Merton and Randy Messenger were the two Americans on the Tigers team. And I was thinking to myself, well, their families probably don't get to hear very much about what's going on with their man. You know what I mean? And so that was kind of the impetus. And I was like, well, maybe if I got something going here, it might be interesting and useful for them. And on the whole, like I feel like what I'm doing here, even though it started as me needing a distraction from my career or my job, it really is a service. It's a service for the players' families. It's a service for the fan base that is small, but it is growing and it has so much potential to grow. And so I think that that's where I think the motivation from. Your original visions worked out because sometimes I'll look at the comments from the viewers or the people who are reading the various information that you provide through Twitter and whatnot. And there will be family members from the States that are making comments about the players and so forth. So I think it definitely worked out that way. Now, when I started, I got this idea for the show. The MLB was in the lockdown. So Jerry, you must be happy that that's, you know, your buddies and so forth are happy that that has finally been resolved. And so I was hoping maybe I could promote Japanese baseball as an alternative because I remember Korean baseball took off when COVID stopped the major league or major season for a while. But major league has fixed the problems. The owners have allowed the players to play, it looks like. But for those viewers that are interested in learning more about Japanese baseball, obviously there's your website to go to. Are there other websites that you would recommend or let's say someone in America actually wants to watch a Japanese game? Are there ways to do that that you know of? So unfortunately it's a bit complicated just as a very kind of rudimentary guide. NPB has two leagues just like MLB but there are only six teams in each league. So there's the Pacific League which has the DH, the Central League which doesn't have the DH. That's like the basic divider between the two. Obviously now in MLB everyone's got the DH but the Pacific League works on the same page with one another, those six clubs and they've got something called Pacific League TV. So if you subscribe to that I think it's like somewhere around 16 bucks a month you can watch all of the games that they play. Plus I think you can get the interleague schedule as well but the Central League unfortunately they are just not a united front. And so it's almost like every team for themselves and the Tigers have got a streaming service which is only available for home games plus games at Tokyo Dome. And then I think the Giants have a service as well but it's like three times the cost of the Tigers one and who wants to follow them anyways. And so I think a couple other teams have their own little services as well. Now if you're in Japan there's also something called DAZON, DAZN for Americans is a Z I guess. And I think that's about 20 bucks a month and you get streaming, you can stream games and also watch archives for 11 different teams. So there are options but it's just not as straightforward as it is in America with MLB TV. Right. As for like websites and stuff the NPB has an English side to their page but it's not very well updated. Oh, it's awful. It's not super visually appealing here. It's awful. They need to hire somebody. They need to hire you forever. I wouldn't mind that, yeah. But then also there's, if you are on Reddit there is a sub for NPB and there are some pretty good updates in there. And there is also a live box score website. I'll give you the link later Steve but you can follow along live with what's going on in the games and it's all in English so. Right. All right, so let's loop back Jerry to the thing we were addressing earlier and that's development of young players. You said that traditionally also in your case you decided when you reached a certain age, you know 27, 28 I think you mentioned that you wanted to consider playing baseball in Asia but how about the question of given your experience in the minors and your experience here in Asia do you think that there may be it may be advisable in some cases for talent that it's coming out of the American University system or maybe other places like maybe Dominican as well to come into Japan to begin their careers rather than the kind of pattern where players are coming in towards the latter stage of their career. You compare your experience in Japan to your experience in the minors. Do you think there's a place for younger players here like Carter Stewart has done with Softbank? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a place. It's just a it's a it's it's tough because for a player Carter I mean, obviously he got paid really well. I think he signed up a six year deal. He was supposed to get I think he got pretty similar to what he was supposed to get for a signing bonus. So with him, I mean, he's still making I think $6 million or something over five or six years and then he'll be a free agent and he can go do whatever he wants to do. If he pitches well for Softbank they might just break him off pretty good and he can just stay over here and make a career out of it or a lot of guys want to go back. But yeah, it's tough for the player for one because a lot of times the team has to justify or the scout has to justify why they want to sign somebody. So like with me going to Korea the team was interested in me but they couldn't sign me. They say they couldn't sign me until I got when they were looking at me, I was in AA. They couldn't sign me until I was promoted to AAA because they couldn't justify to their owner and to their people that were spending the money on me that I was worth the money and I was worth the time to go over there because I wasn't in AAA. I see. So some of these guys like Carter Stewart obviously he was gonna be a top 10 round pick they were gonna pay him millions of dollars. So Softbank jumped on it and they said we can do the same thing. So yeah, I mean a lot of these guys these high school guys if it's available to them I mean a team once they sign you I don't know how in depth you know the kind of the MLB process or that minor league process once they sign you from the draft they have you for like six years. So like I said, and they kind of pay your your signing bonus and instillments over that time. So I mean either way you're kind of locked in to one or the other teams obviously you're hoping to get to the major leagues as fast as possible and then get to your next contract. But either way you're kind of stuck at some point for a few years. I say stuck I don't mean that but for the most part a lot of these guys are stuck. So if they can go ahead and jump over here and make even more money or have better opportunity some people might do it. Yeah, I think it's something that I wouldn't imagine possible as I've watched baseball over the years here in Japan but I don't know if what Carter Stewart did will be replicated what other players in the States that are highly touted will choose going into Negan here in Japan as opposed to going through the minor league experience. And once again he was a high school kid and he's got a lot of times you're nervous about leaving home and going to college. Yeah, exactly. Three hours away he left home and went across the world to a different country. So that's something too that these guys also have to get over like, hey, is it really worth me not? First of all, not living out the college experience or going to minor league ball. But I mean, I'm going across the world without my parents. So yeah, that's a big one too. Yeah, all right, we only have a few minutes left at the time when I do the show always flies by same thing with you guys again. The last question I have is regarding the internationalization. Obviously Jerry, you have been very successful in creating an international career for yourself. But when I think about baseball as a whole it really doesn't achieve the level of football and by that I mean soccer or rugby at the international stage. So maybe Trevor, you may have opinions about this. How can baseball, you understand it in Japan, you understand it in major league. How can baseball coordinate the league activity? So there could be something like a true world cup for baseball where not just a few million people but hundreds of millions of people who are baseball fans will potentially could enjoy that. Right, well, I think first of all, baseball kind of falls victim to the similar conundrum that American football does in that it has a more traditional and much more popular cousin. With football, there's rugby that is a worldwide sport where like a lot of countries would say why would we throw away rugby just to adopt football? And I think cricket to an extent has a much greater global following than baseball and the games are somewhat similar and I think it's probably easier and cheaper to get a cricket team or league going. So I think that's one thing baseball kind of has working against it. But I also know that there is somebody here in Japan who is from Sri Lanka and he's actually done a lot of great work to promote the game back in his home country and he sends equipment and he sends coaches to his home country to do free clinics where kids can pick up real gloves and real bats and stuff and learn the game from people who are experiencing the game. So I think it requires a real grassroots effort to go into these countries with equipment, with human resources that will enable the game to spread because on its own it's not just gonna automatically take root in these countries where there is no familiarity with the game itself. So that would be I think the starting point that needs to be given a serious look. Jerry, what do you think about? I think one of the major reasons why baseball perhaps is not on the global par with rugby or other sports is that the United States, the MLB really thinks about baseball with only within the terms of America and Canada. For example, there is a world's games that occur but usually it's not the main players who go. It would be AAA players and so forth who end up going. So maybe part of the problem is that Americans think about baseball only as an American sport and really don't see it on a global basis. Would you agree with that or do you think it can be internationalized potentially? I think it could be a little bit. I agree a lot with how Trevor said it's exposure. It's the amount of people that you have. Baseball is not an easy sport to play at all. And also there takes a lot of between the bats and the balls and the fields and everybody has a little bit of grass and a lot of people have kick balls. They can go out and they can play soccer or they have somewhat of a rugby ball. They can go out in a green grass field and throw, I don't even know what a rugby ball is called but a rugby ball and they can sling that around. So you can get a group of guys to play soccer and you get a group of guys to play rugby against each other. Baseball, I think it's a little bit tougher obviously just when it comes to equipment it comes to getting a game going and then just teaching the game with baseball. I think like once again he said something about Sri Lanka. I know one of my good friends here is the Czech national baseball team coach and they kind of do mission trips of going to Europe to try to promote obviously promoting the gospel but also promoting the game of baseball and just bringing like I said bringing bats and bringing equipment and bringing knowledge of the game obviously helps it expand and the Czech have gotten a lot better in the last few years since my buddy has been coaching them but it starts from the bottom up once you can get these guys and kind of like Trevor was saying if you can get the grass roots you could get the kids involved and the kids learning and having good coaches then I think once they start playing the game a little bit more and getting better at the game is when it would take off but just trying to pick it up and have a, you know what I mean? They're not gonna go have a pickup game baseball when they have never played don't know the game, don't have equipment so it's a little bit tougher just to kind of get going and it's one of those things I think it really needs to be established and like I said, maybe if you even picked a country in the middle, I'm not very good with geography but in the middle or whatever and kind of based it there and then let it expand kind of naturally on its own I really don't know but I think it could be obviously pushed out a little bit better but I also think it's America's past time so they wanna kind of keep it, I mean it's called the World Series, right? I mean, Japan is the same but Japan and Korea are the same way like, I mean, oh yeah, we'll watch highlights of MLB but like this is Japanese baseball here, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's definitely true It builds out of the country but at the same point in time it's like, yeah, they do stuff over there but we do this a little bit better here or in Korea like, oh yeah, Japanese guys can slap the ball but we hit more home runs here so like I said, they all, I mean it's not an ego but it's a, just that's how you feel about your own sport so I don't think they really wanna, Japanese players are not just gonna go out and branch out and just start teaching American players their tricks and their past time of how they do the game because they wanna kind of keep it to themselves but America's not over here trying to coach up the Japanese either so I think it's one of those tough subjects Yeah, all right guys, we've actually gone over time here I'm getting the morning note from our engineer very enjoyable conversation again, Trevor, thank you so much for putting this together and participating everybody who's interested specifically in Hunching Tigers more broadly Japanese baseball Hunching Tigers English News just Google that, it'll come up right away and Jerry, thank you so much for sharing your experiences on being on the show it was really nice to meet you and hear your story you too, thank you Yep, so everyone, thanks so much I'll see you guys in two weeks we'll probably have to go back to the hard subjects I'm thinking of doing a panel on the impact of the Ukraine war in Japan with my political scientist buddies at Kansai Gaide that's what I'm planning for the next show All right, everyone, thanks again you guys thank you everyone for watching, Serap