 Seven o'clock that got everybody quieted down. Welcome everybody You're up That's all set all set Well again, welcome everybody to the town of Williston's Development Review Board for Tuesday, November 14 2017 we're gonna bring the meeting to order at seven o'clock Valadino welcome we may need a Space Yeah, no we have not. Okay, so we do have three items on the agenda tonight. I Did ask I did ask just a second ago if everybody signed in please do so if you have not have not already We are going to start off tonight with DP 13 DP 10-34 and it's amendment number three for the Chittenden Solid Waste District Names and addresses gentlemen Paul O'Leary O'Leary Berksville Associates 13 corporate drive that's the extension of a lot I'm Brian right Redmond Road Williston the Chittenden Solid Waste District, right? Yes, thank you. You're it. Okay so this is a request to amend a discretionary permit for Chittenden Solid Waste so Chittenden Solid Waste operates a Variety of there's a variety of parts of their operation up on Redmond Road This is related to the composting facility which was Originally approved back in 2010 there've been a couple of amendments since then They originally had a permit for a certain amount of capacity they expanded that They also came in and then their permit and added a greenhouse so they could do product testing on site a couple years later and in this particular case they're looking to Build an additional stormwater facility and the purpose of this is to be able to Collect runoff from larger flow storms. It's a problem that we're seeing more and more Different parts of the state as the climate changes The the runoff from this area, which is sort of the the more Northern or northeastern in that their operation This is coming off of where they have the curing area Have a whole separate stormwater facility that collects any runoff or leachate that comes from where they do the main part of the composting thing where they're basically breaking down raw materials And and if I remember correctly, I believe Brian said that this was something that the state Yeah, the the sand pit They just well, there's a couple things we wanted to combine two storm ponds into one bigger one And then we wanted to have better drainage in the sand. So So, you know the use of the composting facility, it's all approved. It's in a log use. This is just an accessory Or support function That would be part of the overall Overall functioning of the the composting operation We received no comments from public works. So they don't have any issues with that No comments from the fire department. They don't have any issues with it. The planning office doesn't have any We've prepared of some rather generic conditions of approval just in terms of submitting final plans within the deadline And obtaining a permit prior to starting any construction great gentlemen, would you like to add to that? How about a how about just kind of a basic rundown of Expansion on maybe what Ken has said so I'll go yeah, you can fill it in so There's an existing area of which we call the curing area All right Once this process that goes to this certain area It's wind road and and it cures and any runoff that comes off the curing piles are actually Regulated by the solid waste division not by the stormwater division So we're not looking at a stormwater permit permitted under our solid waste permit The solid waste permit requires that we infiltrate the runoff that comes in contact with the curing piles so so currently we have a Low area on the downhill side that collects the runoff and it infiltrates in and Most all the time it works great But a couple years ago when we had a really wet spring and we had some heavy rains The infiltration area couldn't handle the runoff that was coming off the curing piles And it actually filled to the top and it overflowed and overflowed down a portion of Redmond Road And there was a small amount of erosion that occurred along Redmond Road that we had to Correct so the goal of this is we're gonna put in a larger infiltration area about triples the existing area That's there and if we do get an unusually wet spring again or really heavy rains instead of overflowing going down Redmond Drive We've designed an overflow that goes into a separate ravine There's a rip rap spillway that that collects. This has been reviewed by the state and so Worth so we're hopeful that it doesn't overflow because we've tripled the volume of the infiltration area If it does overflow We're gonna direct it away from Redmond Road, so it doesn't cause any erosion and that's pretty pretty much about it We do some work in the old Casey pit and we have the same issue there You know about every five years when it's really wet we get a little bit of standing water in the pit in the spring So actually just putting an underdrain down the middle of the of the pit that will discharge to an adjacent ravine so so to Two action items going on out on the project So the idea here is to is to drain across the road as opposed to on yes Yeah We we want to get rid of that Existing infiltration area at all and send everything to the new area across so we're gonna regrade it So it sheet flows across the road and we've stoned an area of the road where it's gonna sheet sheet across We know that it's gonna require some maintenance that that stone is gonna get clogged up every couple years We're gonna have to just dig it out and replace it, but that's a that's not a big item for us There's not a lot of traffic in and out of that road. So Yep Questions for the audience. Thank you 34 amendment number three chicken solid waste district at 709 I did see a couple of people come in after the hearing was opened Just can you think you can make sure that you did sign in I saw one person do it and one person. Maybe not next up is DP 18-06 Vermont hotel group LLC come on up Well, no, we can we can skip you guys and go to the next next hearing and then come back to you Okay, we are not going to open DP 18-06 on hotel group We're going to open DP 18-08 Sean handy of DDH GSH trust Mr. Handy if you are here, come on up And I am you and you and Good evening Paul O'Leary O'Leary Burke civil associates 13 corporate drive a six-junction Vermont Sean Hayden 30 20 south-east of Mr. Bellaville, is this you again? Not you request for pre-application review for a proposed four-lot subdivision Residential subdivision of a 96.28 acre parcel Located on old-stage road north of Mountain View Road in the ARCD The property is currently developed with a single-family home the applicants Proposing to subdivide the single lot into four single-family home lots And the remaining seventy two point two four acres Is proposed as protected The applicants indicated that lot one may be subdivided into four or five lots in the future Back in December 2014 the DRV reviewed a proposal for subdivision of this parcel into two lots At that time the DRV recommended proceeding to growth management. However, the applicants subsequently This is the first time that the DRV will be hearing this proposal Williston's police fire and public works department reviewed the project the police department had no comments The fire department is concerned about the the lack of water at the site And is requesting an augmentation of the water supply via either buried 15,000 gallon tank And is also requesting the installation of a dry-hydrant connection accessible from a paved and cloud road Department of Public Works submitted attached comments Stating the project needs to conform to the public works specifications and That as built plans and engineering certifications are required at the completion of the project prior to certificate of occupancy The Department of Public Works requested that the applicant Show all utilities proposed and existing And made a note that the future subdivision of lot one Will be required to follow their standard specifications This proposal was also reviewed by the Williston Conservation Commission and Staff proposes that their recommendations be adopted as DRB recommendations moving forward summary WCC's recommendations address the requirement under chapter 27 for a habitat disturbance assessment to be submitted as part of the discretionary permit application And Address impacts to designated view shed areas on the parcel as well The WCC also recommends that the applicant Provide a public trail easement across the property More with in or more or less parallel to the Velco easement which the applicant has Shown on the site plan The proposed Subdivision will be for purposes of adding three new dwelling units to the parcel Single and two-family dwelling units aren't allowed use in the ARZD the 96.2 acre parcel consists of Less than an acre of steep slopes and therefore 95.68 acres are available for development and for the purpose of Wetlands shown on the parcel, but there also hasn't been a delineation At one dwelling unit allowed per 80,000 square feet A theoretical maximum of 52 dwelling units are allowed and the applicant has proposed four dwelling units So any wetlands or wetland buffers present on the parcel would reduce the amount of the parcel Countered for the purposes of determining the number of dwelling units allowed But this is unlikely to have any impact on the number of lots that have been proposed As a subdivision of a parcel of land ten and a half acres or greater This project is required to set aside a minimum of 75 percent of the area of the parent parcel as Permanently protected open space The open space must include steep slopes wetland areas and setbacks and any other Resources required to be protected under Wilson bylaw chapter 27 The applicants proposed 72 point two four acres of open space meets the 75 percent requirement The Wilson Conservation Commission Has made comments related to the requirements of open space development under chapter 27 and chapter 31 One of their findings states that the applicant has noted that lot one may be Subdivided in the future any future subdivision of the 15.4 acre lot one is subject to the 75 percent open space requirement and They were assuming that the current bylaws would apply Into you know infinity which may not be the case Staff notes The uncertainties inherent in contemplating future subdivisions parcel and therefore recommends that the DRB not include any reference to a possible future application in its recommendations for this proposal As far as access goes the proposed development for lot one will be accessed from a private driveway known as amber Lane The bylaw allows up to five dwelling units on a shared driveway the other proposed lots will be accessed from old-stage road Permits for new single-family homes will have to be accompanied by impact fees including traffic impact fees Pre-applications also the stage where the DRB may ask for a traffic impact study if they so desire Staff notes that in Williston three additional Resid single-family units would produce three point oh three new p.m. peak hour trap trip ends So therefore we're not recommending that the DRB requested traffic study for this project For management so authorized the applicant will proceed with the residential growth management allocation request for three additional units Staff is recommending the project be allowed to move forward to growth management review with Some the following recommendations All comments by the fire department should be adopted as pre-application recommendations Comments made by the department Habitat disturbance assessment Discretionary permit application Not too many comments basically just one talking about lot one originally You know Sean plans on putting his house there, you know in the short term and at this point in time We don't have any plans putting anything else on lot one, but sometime in the future. You'd like to reserve that right? To subdivide that that's why it's a 15-acre lot. I understand that The bylaws can change and the board can't make any promises. We're fine with all that We will a little surprised when we saw that the 15 point Four or five acre lot would then be subject to the seventy five percent open space requirement thinking that well We had met our open space requirement Kind of seems like double dipping to us, but if that's the case we're not going to argue it But if that's the way it's going to come down then essentially it's the project's going to morph into a five lot Subdivision instead of a four lot because we'll take that 15 point four or five acres and we'll split it into two lots And I'm pretty sure we'll make sure that it's less than ten point five acres when we're done So besides that we're pretty well set. We have no issues with the staff notes or the recommendations as written Actually, it's a you know where lot one is there's a section of excellent Stetson soils we don't think there's gonna be any issues for us in terms of septic capacity We expect that likely all the lots will probably utilize an area on lot one for septic, so Other than that we're all set Okay, great questions from board Well in terms of being subdivided Yeah, mostly Mostly for tax purposes, you know once if it was subdivided now into say four lots or five lots Then I believe the assessor would look at it a little bit different plus the majority of lot one is now in current use And we don't expect willing to take enough. Well, I believe it's already been taken out of Two acres has been taken out where Sean, you know hopes put the house so other questions Paul This well That I see right on the edge that sort of goes through the supposed open space down the lot to yes Existing that same is that saying that that well is supplying water to both lot one and lot two no just a lot To I expect that lot one will develop their own well. That's an existing. Well, okay I was trying to figure out what what the deal on that was there's a couple other easements on the property That's not shown on this plan some of the other houses the old Quinlan One of the Quinlan houses I think actually two of the Quinlan houses has Easements and uses a portion of the property for a septic and and we'll show all those when we come back. Okay Other questions Did you have any comments on the fire department? No, it's a little odd seeing how You could you could probably hit the new water tank, you know with a bow and arrow from where the house location is So I'm not quite sure but we'll have that conversation with the with the fire chief Yeah It's a little it was a little odd, right Sitting there and looking at the new tank being built, but that's all right. We'll work that out Fire chiefs normally is pretty reasonable. So I have I have one comment. It's a comment only I'm doing it I'm doing it because I get to You have a lovely piece of land you do no question about it Beautiful beautiful piece of land you've got Lot one is lot one with the drive-in is also looks beautiful from From this Then you've got four other lots that are lined up on old-stage road that are squares that are that Are about as boring as you can possibly get Why not do something where you have a single access where there is a I know a road driven in the lots are clustered the houses are clustered They can be on the same size lots the frontage stays clean They don't get all broken up with a mailbox every 200 feet And you end up with a more beautiful piece of property my opinion. All right, so yeah, I mean you're free to do what you want But it seems to me that you know with the with the land that you have and some creativity You've got a major lost opportunity So that's that as I said, this is my opinion and That's it. You don't have to respond I respect that my opinion is Yeah Other questions to the board Questions from the audience Well the two-acre lot that I took out of land used basically We're that little wooded piece as just below the camera that comes out a little bit on Towards my Christmas trees. It's from there basically from there down to the Christmas trees And then back over towards the water That's the two-acre lot Okay, so closer not to you that great So you're right where your trailer is right now Front of it. I mean it's beautiful view from the trailer is obviously obviously as you know the view is an important factor in Somewhere in front of that center field Christmas trees towards that hillside Yeah And you Well destruction from our side, you know, I go well, it's very close to Dropping your well there being any concerns I would doubt it We're adding in relation to that question sir is that There will need to be a vegetative buffer around the whole for a free up the subdivision I Off the top of my head. I don't know how The depth of that would be it sort of depends to what extent the applicant is able to utilize Existing vegetation as opposed to having to supplement that with additional plantings But so there would be a vegetative buffer around the whole periphery of the subdivision that would be required and then in addition to the There's a Building on the logs for for individual building sites that sort of thing And that that we get that would all get Determined at the discretionary permit stage. So this is stage one of So there's a lot of detailed things that would have to get worked out in subsequent Other questions from the audience. Yes, ma'am I'm sorry, could you state your name dead back down on stage road very good. Thank you I just a clarification question because you mentioned four lots on old stage I thought they're only going to be three lots actually on old stage road And I'm assuming Sean. Maybe I'm not accurate one of them already has a house I may have misspoke two additional lots on old stage road Thank you. All right, so I did look online at the map that was drawn up and then I thought maybe I wasn't understanding everything And then to the further down the road correct Just past Kathy's old house My property actually is right smack in the middle of the lots that you intend to build First question is do you intend on selling these as building lots or do you intend on building them yourself and then selling My other question, I'm also somewhat concerned about the water I Currently we share a spring-fed well with the Tenants that live in one of your lots right now. Are you planning on tapping into that well and to that spring or? As you said do you intend on digging a well? Not a hundred percent sure at this point. Okay, you know depends on If that well can support another home comfortably Or you know if it's better to drill another well, I mean for me personally drill drilled wells better water, but You know, that's open at this point Just clarification Underneath the power line yours guitars well as part of the parcel That would that would It's still be my part of it. I mean Mr. Ellsworth's land Comes up a little ways and then cuts under it. That's where his mount system is now But I would still continue to own the parcel that's between the original house Frank's you know house and then the the Velco power lines Other question from the audience It's George and Jenkins. I don't really understand so much of the process. So when does it happen that people look at the Wetness of the land or the amount We're at the end of old-stage road and we have an awful lot of water from developments that have happened over the last 15 years that now flood our fields and have caused a New diversion ditch to be built down through Williston Woods. So you know more construction When when is the point where somebody looks at the wetlands or the amount of water? That's going to run off from these Developed properties Melinda you want to tackle that? So the applicant would have to get wetlands delineation and submit that with their application for discretionary permit they will also Be required to submit a runoff in erosion control plan So that will Detail the plans for controlling stormwater from from the development And what happens when all that planning in actuality doesn't work? Is there recourse or I? Mean I understand you know you do all the planning and the engineers say this should work Is does that happen is there recourse after that the end is resulted? Well at some point if you think that your property is being hired by your neighbor's property you go take of the court and you know Make your case to a judge that that your neighbor has damaged your property in some way You know what I would say about water is you know we hear a lot of people talk about water and You know one of the things that that I've certainly become aware in the last few years In listening to people from the state who are more expert on this issue than mine is the nature of how storms Comes here in this part of the country has been changing over the years and so What sometimes what people may experience? Well, it's all because of what they did next door or it's all because of what they did down the street And maybe maybe not maybe it's due to the fact that that the nature of the storm events that we have now is we get More highly intensive storm events where you get more rain coming down in a shorter period of time It's well known in Williston that Large parts of town have clay soils that do not drain particularly well now in this part of Williston It's a little bit of a mix because we know from looking at some of the soils maps There's some sand and some some soils that drain better than others, but Large parts of town have clay soils and they don't drain particularly well You get a you get a lot of rain comes down in a short period of time That's that's gonna prove that's gonna prove to be difficult But it's Melinda said they'll have to they'll have to show us a stormwater plant They may be required to get a stormwater permit by the state depending upon whether or not they trip the state thresholds for Impervious surface. I don't know the answer to that at this particular point in time What I'm understanding the process to be is you do your best planning You take your best judgment as to how to create this, but then nobody goes back To see if it works. Is that accurate? Well once somebody gets a permit they get to act on that permit Thanks other question. Yes, ma'am If you could state your name and address again So I think she's she is I Combining conserved and in current use am I correct? I'm not sure what the difference is Okay, so Paul you want Paul are showing you want to tackle it so essentially 75% of the parcel Will about 72 acres will remain as open space. It's not it's not deeded to the town It's not public land. It's continued to be owned by Sean and basically there's mechanisms on it So it can't be developed in the future as as the board is is well aware The conservation committee has interests in establishing a primitive path easement across the property and Essentially at the first blush They said they thought they'd like it to either be within the Velco easement or follow the Velco easement And and we're fine with working with The committee to establish that we have no issues granting them an easement across the property Where the path is going to be at this point in time? We don't know but I believe what they're talking about is primitive path not a Paved date for a wide bike path or anything like that. So Correct I guess my next concern which since we have so many issues with cars in the road because of the orchard in several tree farms Parking of cars on the road first to access something like that. I don't know if that would be addressed in a future plan But just a question to be raised A narrow road Issues with Other questions or comments from the audience for the questions or comments from the board You're okay with staff notes. Yes, we are One of the comment. Yes, sir So just to to make it clear because I know some of you, you know, maybe you haven't come to a lot of these hearings before So for somebody to get a subdivision approved, this is what's called pre-application. This is step one Step two is going to take place In the end of March and that's growth management. So you may know we have this Arduous and exacting growth management process takes place once a year. It's loads of fun And and as part of that process The applicant gets to make some decisions about things that they may or may not want to include in their subdivision So so that part of your question about who's going to own the open space That's the kind of thing the applicant if the applicant says we're going to place a conservation easement on that open space Or the applicant says that we would work out some some deal with the land trust The applicant would get more points in growth management if they did it that way as opposed to just saying it's going to be designated Open space on the plot and we're going to continue and own it So so so part of it the balls in in in the court of the applicant to some extent They they decide what they want to include as part of the project or not And they will get more or fewer points based on what it is that they do so so that's all going to take place The the fourth week of March and then after that assuming if the applicant gets allocation They have one year from that date to come in to submit an application for a discretionary permit And that's the time at which we get all the engineering So some of the questions about wells and septic systems and drainage and all that stuff all that engineering Detail would need to be provided at that time. So that's just to let you know about the the process as it goes from here Thanks, go With that in mind does anybody else have any other questions? Any more from the board Great. Thank you all. Thank you for coming. Thank you close DP 18-08 to Sean handy of DDH GSH trust at 738 Okay, welcome everybody Next up is DP 18-06 Vermont hotel group LLC Everybody is here We're gonna go with who's here. We're gonna go with who's here. Yeah, very good. All right, okay He would state your names in your addresses, please My name is Abby dairy. I'm with Trudeau consulting engineers Steve Gall the G4 design studios or the architects great. Can you say that one more time? Three times slower Steve Gall the G4 design studios for the architects Okay, mr. Bellow. Oh, is this you or is this Matt? Oh, this is Matt. Okay. I keep on calling on you and you keep on passing a buck The chair does want to make one comment before we get going and that is that from the packet that was provided to us I note that there is a four-story hotel proposed Will still allows three stories not four stories. I'm seeing surprise on your faces So I may be able to shed some light on the okay Matt can Matt is Maybe you can surprise us both. Yeah, I might okay Well, let me let me start by just introducing this. This is a request for pre-application review. It's for a new hotel On an existing developed site in Blair Park the same site that hosts the post office as well as The UPS store paper peddler ski the East retail and some other uses as well I'll I'll skip right to the discussion of height because this question was posed to us recently about building height and incentivizing building height in this zone so in 2015 the business park zoning district was Bylaw that governs the business park zoning district was amended to extend the height incentive That is available in the tap corner zoning district across the street to this zoning district There are two ways you can access that height incentive which raises the height limit from 36 feet to 52 feet you can build Permanently or rather perpetually affordable housing or You can provide a significant amount of the building's parking demand in a structure or underneath the building in The tap corner zoning district where this incentive is available There's another paragraph under the height incentive that says the intent of this is not to have people build four and five story buildings with flat roofs The intent of this is to build three and maybe four story buildings depending on the grade if they have a pitched roof So that's it. That's the caveat to the height incentive that exists in the tap corners district in the business park district the height incentive says you can go from 36 to 52 if you provide affordable housing or structured parking period and The the nice words about putting it three or four stories under a pitched roof is actually absent from that piece of the Bible That said what the applicants have shown us at pre-application is In is under 52 feet or at 52 feet has four stories, but does also have a pitched roof So my advice would be that the project has rendered right now does meet the requirements to tap into the height incentive in business Park Okay, great It was a surprise to me to think that it was the other way when I heard that question asked recently because I thought I'd nailed That down, so I'm glad I'm glad we're clear on that so You know moving past that I'll just go through so if so let's so why don't we start? Let's go back to the beginning because I think we all just learned something that we didn't know So let's we're we'll go back to being and start up from the start up from that and walk through it So this is already give you sorry to give you a heart attack That's why we do pre-application So this is the the preliminary stage This is the first stage of the process that also involves a discretionary permit hearing where there's far greater Requirements for the kind of information the output that have to provide to the board as well as eventually the filing of final plans Proval issued by those are our other two steps here. So pre-application is understood to be a concept level review multiple concepts are encouraged Often like in this case applicants do come to us with with one idea of what they want to build and where they want to put it And so you have one concept in front of you This is the stage of review where the DRB can request a couple of things as part of discretionary permit review The DRB can ask for example for a traffic study staff is recommending Ask for some information about traffic As well as shared parking study and where there are multiple uses on the site and use is proposed And a general desire to not build more parking than is necessary Staff is recommending that if the applicants proceed with discretion That they provide the DRB with a shared parking study So the building that's proposed is 58,000 square feet 96 rooms It's a four-story hotel with a basement level of parking below grade underneath it There is a little bit of grade on the site you can you can see that in Sheet C10 dash o2 that was in your set It's not as dramatic as it is as you come closer up to the tap corners intersection But there is a little bit of a grade on the site That said with the applicants rendered puts that parking level entirely below grade with the first floor essentially at grade On the post office or or retail store side of the parking lot This is the first time this project has been reviewed by the DRB. The site was originally developed under North Shore partnership in 1985 and in much much more recent history The DRB did approve a master sign plan for the site under discretionary permit 15 dash 20 Because there are multiple commercial tenants on the site So the proposed use is a hotel Williston uses the north america industry classification system to define uses NAICS use number 721 lodging Which covers hotels is listed as an allowed use in the zoning district Access to the site is proposed by the three curb cuts that currently exist on the site No new curb cuts to Are proposed as part of the application As I mentioned staff is recommending that the DRB talk with the applicant about traffic generation And whether you want a traffic study or or tripping generation information That may be something the board would like to discuss with the applicant There are some landscape buffer requirements We have street frontages on three sides of this building where The requirements of chapter 29 would come into play essentially Dictating a street tree section that generally looks like one major tree every 30 feet or so Or or three per hundred there are a large number of existing mature trees on the site But there are some places that will need to be built in And then the property has a side yard setback with the adjacent ashley furniture building To the east The applicant has shown a 10 foot setback there You could fit a nine foot wide type two I believe landscape buffer a continuous screening hedge within that barrier and come into compliance with chapter 23 Uses are basically other commercial buffering to other commercials So generally fairly narrow buffers are allowed when the uses are as similar as that In terms of site maintenance Going forward if the applicants proceed to discretionary permit review There will be information required on the site about dumpster locations and screening as well as any compactors snow storage areas and the like In terms of outdoor lighting if the applicant proceeds to discretionary permit a complete photometric plan will be required Showing compliance with the town's lighting standards in general those standards Involve both a maximum amount of light on the site a requirement that the light will be downward shielded That the light not trespass off of the site and that areas that are proposed to be lit are yet lit uniformly The town does also have standards related to architectural lighting primarily prohibiting bands of light that illuminate the entire structure but rather You know ponds or islands of light that Highlight architectural features in the maximum height for exterior lighting on a building in williston is set at 15 feet above grade In terms of parking as I mentioned the applicant is proposing Additional parking a reconfiguration of the surface parking lot as well as parking under the building And as I mentioned the staff is recommending that the drb require a shared parking study Justifying the amount of parking proposed in total on the site The applicant has identified in their preliminary plan That they are able to access up to a 20 percent reduction in total required parking on the site Due to their proximity to transit. So there's a transit shelter and stop Just the other side of Blair park road On williston road and there's there's service with 15 minute headways on williston road From here to downtown burlington So staff would generally support a significant discount in parking Numbers based on that as well as whatever can be accomplished through shared parking Um I would note that when the whole thing comes in for discretionary permit We have a legacy site that was built under older development standards going back as far as 1985 The parking including all of the requirements that come out of parking should be addressed site-wide when it comes back in So that means looking at the number of Ada or handicap spaces outdoor bicycle storage Indoor bicycle storage and commuter end-of-trip facilities i.e. employee showers I did mention I sort of jumped the gun and started on the height bonus There is a height bonus available in this zoning district for the Structure parking that height bonus increases the limit from 36 feet above average finished grade to 52 feet above average finished grade And I'll just note that in williston The maximum height includes everything that's attached to the building So we sometimes get questions from people is at the midpoint of the roof Do my chimneys count etc in williston? Everything's got to fit under either the 36 or the 52 foot limit There is existing signage on the site There will need to be a revised master sign plan provided as part of an application for a discretionary permit Uh, I hope that that is far more To scale better and accurate than the one that exists for the site today And I say that because I basically prepared the one for the site today and it was A quick job to help the owner who needed to get some retail tenants in at the time and It wasn't my most detailed work So there's a great opportunity to to brush up the master side plan on the site and make it better than the one I more or less did In terms of design review this property is both in our growth center and in the town's design review district This means that the requirements of chapter 22 apply and that the drb will be receiving Design advisory committee advice from the historical architectural advisory committee at discretionary permit stage In general a quick Swipe through the requirements of chapter 22 that relate to single-use buildings like this Windows face the street entrances face the street No dead walls Provide air locks in other words. There's not a major door on the site that just are on the building that just opens out And you know exposes conditions space directly to the outside Hotels almost categorically have that sort of thing. They they generally don't have dead walls The applicant has presented a rendering of what the building might look like showing that pitched roof element Showing a facade with a couple different materials on it and some articulation You know at discretionary permit stage we'll talk in greater detail about material selection And things like that, but the staff impression is it's it's going in the right direction for compliance with the design review chapters requirements That said I have prepared Recommendations and a draft motion authorizing the applicant to move forward to discretionary permit review We did receive comment memos from both fire And public works I would characterize the comments of both being fairly general and and generally pointing out requirements either in the public work specifications Or the fire department plan review requirements that would need to be met And shown to be met at the discretionary permit stage We always encourage applicants to talk to those commenting departments outside of their conversations with us and and make sure there's No other moves there, but I didn't see anything In the comment memos that seemed out of the ordinary So with that, I'll I'll leave you with the draft motion and let the applicant talk Great. Thank you mad. Okay Your turn What else is there to say? Yeah That was fantastic. Thank you for the you're going to you're going to flesh out what you want to do For the the summary so yeah Basically, they want to build a 96 unit hotel They want to go up to the 52 feet Maximum height that's allowed with taking the credit for the underground parking and I I do know a few more things since this Has been submitted. One is that there's not going to be a pool and two the access to the underground parking Might not be on the West face of the building. We might come off of the north into and out of the north side of the building So that's just a little change since this the middle But um, yeah, so we're after this meeting we're going to Get plans together and move on to discretionary permit If that's acceptable and we're here to see What you think get your comments and Find out what we need to incorporate into our discretionary permit application Okay, great Anymore no, okay question to the board so Can you point out? I think I understand this that the the current access is shown for the parking garages right up next to Willis and road, but you're suggesting that it's going to actually be somewhere else. Can you point that out? Um, this is a pedestrian access right here. This is not driving. This might go away. This is going away And we might come in here I thought you were saying The vision makes question for staff The vision of the construction parking allows them to go up to 52 feet Now I guess and then a question for you then if If the shared parking assessment shows that you don't need those extra 40 spaces It seems like you're building that just to get another floor, but you're actually building That floor is just for parking right if you didn't need that parking then you could drop down to Three stories or you know If we didn't need that part I think we would keep the parking because they want to have the 96 units From a cost perspective. So they want to couldn't you still keep the 96 units? But just we would have a basement level of units then and I don't know that they would allow that So I don't think about that, right? Well, it would be a base. I mean Oh, I'm with it. I'm with it for you. Okay. Yes. Yeah, we have an underground parking. We can't go four stories Correct, right, right. Yeah, I mean I go three I mean the other thing is if if a study were to show That with all of the underground parking proposed by the applicant There was a reason to not need as much surface parking as is on the site today The applicants could propose to reconfigure and reduce that surface parking Which which would be in line with a couple of goals in the town plan. So that you know, there's Nothing prohibiting in fact, maybe a little bit of incentive to go ahead and do that If they if they wanted to The second question was just the configuration on the lot. It seems like you have an existing parking At 39 degrees to have a line of Wilson Road It might be a little opposing to have the 52 foot facade along Wilson Road But it seems like it could lay in better with the overall circulation parking Did you look at that? Yes, our landscape architect did several options on the best configuration And I think with the way the grade goes having it In this configuration it works better for what's on site I think it would be great though as we move further into the process to see Bad elevation from Wilson Road because that's really not I mean it's really not shown on here and I understand this is pre-application, but when we get to the DP Phase I I'm going to want to see what that looks like How that building is experienced from people that are driving by or walking along there since you have a pedestrian access Right. Yeah, we would Steve would come up with several. Yeah, we have three models Showing different angles, you know going up and down route 2a To get to get that that impression how it looks Kyle's going to look like You know The famous 52 foot balloon 11c where the tops of these things are but three or four of them up there to get up And eyeball what you're looking at. Okay One other issue that I just have The backside of this building is that a down slope towards your building You know the picture here makes it look like there's a fair down slope back towards the building The only reason I ask that question is because My barn is 70 foot wide when the snow comes off of that thing I end up with a pile that's rather Gigantical on the side of the building. I end up having to go with the tractors and you know move it out of there So it doesn't leak back into the building And I'm just saying if you got a down slope and you have snow come off your roof and you have like A five foot pile there you're going to have leakage back towards your building into your parking garage So I was just kind of like saying, you know, if you look at dealing with that in the winter Not yet You know, we we understand the site has some engineering challenges, but we're that was all that's On our minds. Yes Right the roof has to be pitched questions from the board questions from the audience Yes, ma'am Georgia and Jenkins old stage road the the issue with underground parking It is that designed for the residents In the hotel or is it Possible that it would have some other public parking use I'm guessing it's for the residents of the hotel if you'd like to confirm that or or not I can confirm that it would be for the use of the hotel ma'am Are there plans to have a restaurant? Could you state your name and your um, marshal your old state road? Thank you Are there plans to include a restaurant? I think the first floor plan that a restaurant not at this time. No, well, is is it allowed in this zone? So Yeah, the rest restaurant would only be allowed in the zoning district as an accessory use to the hotel So, you know the typical food service that happens in a hotel would likely be able to be approved as accessory But something that was much bigger in size would would tip the balance beyond what's currently allowed So in the the business park district it's surrounded on or it's Bored on two sides by the taft corners district where you have, you know standalone restaurants. You have retail Um business park the way it's zoned today is sort of reflective of its past as an office park Um Retail is allowed on parcels like this one that front on route two But standalone restaurants aren't allowed in the zoning district at all right now The sandwich company that does exist there predates that zoning Okay And who is the owner operator Of this book top. Um the applicant is vermont hotel group vermont hotel group Thank you Anything else Any other questions from the audience? Okay. All right Anything else you'd like to add to this? I think we're we're good with those staff recommendations on what they want to see the traffic All right Lord will the bar will talk about it in deliberations and we'll um You can call in in the morning on chat with staff. Great. I will great. Thank you very much. Thank you We're going to close dp 18-06 vermont hotel group at 801 So You know, I don't I don't know well, isn't it What brian said was that the so They have They have some sort of permit. I think from the solid waste division state And I think what I heard say was not the storm water people for sake of the solid waste people wanted them to Build a better facility because when they would get these big storms they would get some runoff from the curing area and I think because of The organic material of the nature of compost being what it is it's all this organic material and They want that to be contained because it can contribute to phosphorus and all that all that other bad stuff that They're about on time and so that's that's what's driving me So they're either trying to be good neighbors or they've noticed some form of increase for all No, I think they're trying to stay out of trouble. I think Yeah They're playing with the rules About it, you know, they're doing exactly what they're allowed to do The fire department is asking asking not requiring asking for One of three different things We don't have to have it in there. No, he said they said they were going to work with the fire department Yeah, no, I'm technically saying that there is But there it's an ask on the fire department's part. It's not a you know, not a mandate It's kind of If they're willing to do it The question of About subdividing lock one into something less than When with that when was he envisioning that happening No Well, he's you know, I mean again, they were pretty honest about why they weren't doing it They don't want they don't want four or five different locks. They get taxed on they want just one But wasn't this point though if he comes back to at a later date to try to subdivide lock one That's 75% of that would have to be said Unless he sub-divided right now in the two locks would either of which are over But he's not I think we're going to see that at the end. Yeah, I think that's I think that's what we're going to see Yeah, so I'll need to come back and ask for allocation In March in March for growth management. He's going to need to tell us how many units of allocation you want But you don't have to show it on this the pre-out stage to show that extra low Well, I think that he's mentioning it. You know pre-out was a discussion You you can you can say I mean if you could say how many lots you wanted to move forward to for growth management If you really want to get that failed at this moment But I guess he's not bound by the four locks you can go back and buy that Discussion is right. Well, you know, we would typically counsel applicants to not To be upfront about what it is that they're really asking for Right, because otherwise, you know, what tends to happen is Is if folks only heard four and then all of a sudden they hear five and they go in and you tell the support back then So I think it was Breville report. He was, you know, pretty upfront and the issue was addressed in the staff notes But he's going to get nailed down in March when he comes in for growth management He's going to ask for a specific number of units of allocations And then of course when it comes in for D.P. He can't promote any more locks than he's got allocation for I mean he could come back in for that 10-acre lock to Get a subdivision from that Later a lot of people fly with all the rules Which could be stricter or it could be more lenient or who knows what they might be whatever Open space set aside on lots of five acres instead of 10 and a half like it is today Right You know If someone wants to create lots today that won't be subject to today's open space requirements if they come in and Want to subdivide them And if they come in and do that and the rules haven't changed They can do that So, um, this is a question Tennis says your staff therefore recommends the every non-included reference to a possible future application and recommendations this proposal And I have a better chance to use the chat I'm just going to put the garb That you drafted these are out of that Appointment change that needs to be In his comment tonight Is that's new information for us about Putting that to locks versus So so but we're not we're not saying anything then about the fact that that would need to be A 75 percent This We're not saying it will be subject to what rules might mean in fact in the future And we're not saying it won't be subject to what rules might be Stay away, but we did have the discussion tonight. Well, you know, what right how that would be interpreted So if the rules don't change and you create lots that are 10 and a half acres or less than 10 and a half acres And the rules don't change you That is he is doing Yeah Kind of identified a similar piece of the land as her future development The two water that were in the reference Is our call I mean some of it is I think everything north of the belco line is going to trickle this Core habitat Probably Anything else on that Mr. Turner would you like to read that? You may ask anything you want It's a power line that runs right through the middle of the property that he's still owns the property, but they they have a They have a 60 150 feet He owns it, but you can't build within that easement. You can't build under it. You can drive under it Anything in there Yeah, those nice trees They're really pretty birches, but they're already 12 feet tall and I'm drawing In that they're dice or they'll be one side It's a white man of about six weeks The next big wins If they're paper orchards, you cut them up and sell them to Going to put a little lime as far as you can Take firm firm piles So Another issue that we wanted to draw in front of the board is You wanted to mention the The infamous I think I can use that word handy wedding bar So So, you know the applicant so first we had it was continued forward to a date certain And then the applicant requests that if you put on hold And then I had a an informal conversation with their attorney I haven't been in the office and You know he basically said to me they're Behind the scenes folks are trying to figure out something else that might take place with the structure Okay, so whatever in the meantime, this thing is just out there floating out there in determinant and so You know, we had a brief discussion about this in the office And so the question is whether or not You know how the board feels about that you just want to sort of leave it out there and then You know, let the applicant sort of wither on the vine or come back in or If you want to give them a date where you say All right, folks, you got to finish your cafe come back in by this date So just wanted to throw that out or you know for a discussion There's a for all of you who are here. Um, how do you feel about that? It feels odd to have an open here. I couldn't agree. I couldn't agree more than I mean as otherwise I I think you I think we ought to pick a date pick vote and And make them make them show up or not Right, that's my opinion. I mean we got not Oh Maybe it's all of them I mean, I can always start right if they haven't they haven't they've had one year Day, what do you think? I agree to solve them on a date or something What's your plan or pull the app whatever you want to do Or can you get them to can you get them to pull it? Well, that's part of well, it's part of the the idea of setting the date Again, it's like fish your cafe. So if you're going to come back in you got to bring any additional materials to us by this date and the GRB is going to hear the item on this date and then And then they they either do it or they don't so do you have do you have a Do you have a dp for that a dp number of that? We give you this as a record and say you'd be here by a certain date And then given given where we are on the calendar this being the the middle of november And we have a couple minor holidays coming up That will impact everybody's lives no doubt You know my suggestion is you might you might say You got to come in. What did we say by the By the first meeting in february something like that. Yeah, which would be february 13 So any kind of regular clock is ticking we have to have that during my survey No, once you close your hearing you've got a clock that takes to To issue a decision and we continue the other right the other is is the applicant has said they have requested So they are requesting So, you know, just why whenever an applicant does that, you know, we say that's great. Give it to us, right? Because we want to have we want to we want to have that in a record so that In the event that they do say well the end approval, but we'll wait a minute. This is what you asked for You know, we're only giving what you asked for So, can we say something If you give us give us the the dp number 30 So dp 1801 Yeah, I would say why don't we say february 27 And in that way they can't wind that they haven't been given enough notice And that's that's the thing is you want it, you know They given you know, we didn't give many notice and they can figure it out and then tell them that they've got to get any Additional materials that they want to give to us. They got to get to them get them to us by monday from work. Yeah So, uh, what's what's the name of the what is the name of the And So if we just simply say from the board's position If we simply said Handy bank with facility has been rescheduled for 227 18 And leave it at that then you can notify them and talk to them as we did and we don't have to put any Anything We would do is we would we would read out and sit in the paper. We would read notice it to the neighbors We would inform them We would inform the alpin, of course, we would tell the applicants They've got to get any additional materials into us by the beginning of february And then let them decide what they want to do and then if they have questions, they'll call us they'll write And we'll say yeah, you know if you want The board's going to take it up on the 27th of february be there be square. Yeah, can I ask for more time? They could I would be inclined to recommend say You tell them if they want to ask for more time. They got to show up on the 27th and make their case I think at this point my my opinion is that You can tell them that we'll just simply all we're going to do is put put it up formally put it out That it's been scheduled now to 27 18 handy back the facility That's it. I don't think I don't think we as a board need to get into any in-depth Instructions to the applicant and let staff do that We're just simply we are now taking this thing out of space and making it a you know making it a date, sir Uh before we get kind of going on that Um Matt would you run through that? Analysis that you gave us on height sure one more time So the normal height limit for all structures you will listen is 36 above average There are a few zoning districts And the one we've experienced the most tap corners district and primarily in crossing project where You can go up from the 36 foot height limit to the 52 foot height limit on a building that either provides perpetually affordable housing Or a minimum of 30 of its parking demand in a structure which has typically meant under the building When that bylaw provision was established the the town Expressed through some community input a desire that we not have lots of 52 foot tall four and five story flat roof, you know very urban Looking buildings and there's some other places in the bylaw in the town plan where there's language about pitched roofs being seen as desirable in tap forms So the first part of it is what you have to do to be allowed to go to 52 feet And in tapped corners, there's language about that and in business park. There's language about that It says, you know affordable housing or structured parking can get you to a 52 foot limit In tapped corners, there's another paragraph underneath that that says the intent of this is not to let somebody have a four or five story flat roof building with structured parking affordable housing in it, but rather to have three Or four where the grade allows or since depending on the grade or what does that? I think it raised a lot I think typically it would be the building that at least on one aspect is Is um has a high grade on one side, you know to build into a slope of some kind So the part of the building is of course part of part of three, but your average grade isn't both of them Right So so and it says that the intent is to have those three or four story buildings depending on grade with a pitch roof building So would that apply here? So in this case This zoning district doesn't have that second paragraph in it. So okay, so going back then just to like I'm dense, okay Which zoning district Has that other statement about building tapped corners district. Yeah This district just says if you do structured parking Or affordable you can go to 52 feet And most likely what happened was that was a clinical error So So That was my question Was there was there some need to find out I have no I have no reason to to think that that was the intent in fact You know the idea of extending the height bonus This zoning district. This was something that that staff brought to the planning commission. So It was it was all doing and you know I think our thinking was It should be the same as in the platform zoning district. If you didn't see any There's no Good reason that we could think of as to why you would not um why you would not allow it so So is it conceivable that the Age restricted housing that is going up behind this could be four stories could have been four stories Could have been Yeah, I mean, you know really what's what's missing from business park that we think probably should have been there Is this statement about we still want to see a pitch through and and what we're what we're going for What we're hoping to do is we've got a bylaw clean up coming up about language Again, obviously You know until until the plan we shouldn't select with both. You don't know what you're going to get but I I guess I'm just surprised that there would be a pushback on That's not like I don't probably have any strong feelings about it one way or the other again the idea of extending the zoning district came from staff Right now the way the regulations are they come back with a lot of There's no outright prohibition on here There is some language in 22, which also applies to this stating that pitch groups are generally Consider desirable slash required unless the building's an industrial building I got to say that in the time we've worked here, there've been numerous non industrial flatwood buildings proposed and approved And I always bring that pitch group language from 22 often You know rehab gyms a good example about 52 foot or 36 foot So the bylaws get this stuff about wanting pitch groups. Does anybody feel strongly about a pitch group on this building? there's never been Anybody in my memory who's on these boards who would say yeah, that really ought to have a pitch group element to it Is there is there a definition of pitch groups? Is there a certain pitch you need to have to have a full plan? I don't believe our definitions cover that You know, I don't know for example if some of the pitched elements at navel tree place that are really just You know a character with a pitch sticking on it are considered I've been very shallow Right with this one it's just a shallow pitch group that you can't even see from the ground So what's everybody think of this? So definitely I think when you come from brown ale road toward Williston This sucker is going to block out the sun It's on the road. It's four and a it's four and a half stories tall. It's going to be it's it is going to be It is going to it is you know, everything it's going to it's going to totally change the streetscape by Not a little bit. I mean I mean that's that's the other thing is the building to come after this as far as hotel I'm not sure that I would characterize this I mean these are two different things here, I mean that's what I was asking about Well, I almost asked that question, but You know This has a nice green space out here that is you are that view that you're looking at has some Parkland has some green space has some reading room versus this Which has got a bunch of parking lot right in front of it. It's just asphalt lawn And even as they've got it shown You know the dive down underneath the building right there Which you're going to be you're going to be saving me to design a very You know Exactly, which was I thought Though they were yeah, she was talking about two different Access but she was talking about yeah going in and out here and I don't know I know but even when she said that she was also talking about another axis at this time No, that was that was that was the best free and Into the building And then it was just cars in and out here, right? So there's only one one way in So, I mean again You know, what is what is the the vision for the Sidewalks and the pedestrian walkway along that road And are we now putting this giant building that's going to be this What's going to look like more than this even that far away from that as you walk along the sidewalk And it's going to look like the side entrance of the building That was my purpose in asking about that. We go look here your model I want you to think about what You know, one of my thoughts is They had they had shown us some concepts years ago that were reworking of the post office building As opposed to another building off the site and the one advantage of slamming this thing off into the corner of the way it is is It leaves the rest of the site open for potential redevelopment at some point I mean that the other post office building is You know, stuff hangs out for a long time. Well, so I'm not going to pretend that that building's it's all about to be redeveloped tomorrow But you look at what's left on this site And you know, you build this new hotel off in the corner and there's a lot of space left to play with someday So I like that We did also have a point where the bylaw was amended to make the setback for buildings to Williston Road The same on this side of the road as it is on the other side of the road Of course the 25 feet instead of It was 50 feet from all roads before in Business Park, which really encourages this Very space and intensive office park environment, you know, what we're seeing is Given tighter setbacks developers have been willing to to do stuff that comes up to the street or comes up to the paths You have a multi-use path along route to another location That's there So another thing that's different about this site versus being in tap corners is we don't have the five of nine design criteria That tap corners projects need to be so this is your urban park public art sidewalk solar panels on the roof stuff We don't have anything like that over here so, you know the board may recall when we were fighting the rehab gym about having that entrance facing route to a and You're trying to pin the desire to have that on something and not having the same kind of design criteria that you have just across the street so My opinion something that comes up to the street is is better than Better than not. I do think it's big. Um, there is a little more great as you go up Like I said in a little review of the superstore Um, oh, yeah, I'm coming coming from congress street or brown ale. Um, but you know, it'll be it'll be big And it'll be really obvious and you won't be looking down over the look of the post office building anymore There's design elements that'll be required as part of 22 Most of that's going to come down to not having dead walls to having articulation Appropriate landscaping There is a there is a statement in there about sizing outdoor spaces appropriately oddly enough. It's mostly about not making them too big I think there was a reaction to the gigantic green maple tree place but You know, you can breathe between the lines a little bit in 22 and breathe that you know places should look nice They should be pleasant to walk outside out They should work well in terms of a relationship to the street You've got parking lot landscaping requirements that are going to require five percent of parking lot to be in a landscape Configuration with shading trees and You know better lighting. I mean my other comment about you know applying parking status site-wide is I wouldn't I wouldn't discourage the board from You know looking at the whole site and if there's like if there's like chunky Street lights somewhere else in the parking lot that ought to be switched out This is the time to do it if there's landscaping that's bad over from the post office. This is the time to go get it Ken and I one of our regrets when Clark Sonoco came through for their review was we didn't even fix that There's a street light that's like doing this And it's overly bright. It's not well shielded and We probably could have gotten Clark Sonoco to to redo that light as part of that project Well, at least we got rid of the rainbow We got rid of the rainbow canopy At the bad sign and I mean it it made a leak But it looks it looks a lot right by and see that one tilt of light close to the power You know We could have gotten that It'll be a long time before we get another shot. So, you know, this is the kind of site where I look at that post office building and go Yeah, you know, I mean I need it. There's a junky master sign plan that I basically helped the owner cobbled together when he was trying to land People have like ski the east of there. There's a there's a two million dollar TV studio. That's right They make they make propaganda but it's an incredible acoustic treatment Or we get a change of use on that or follow that There's also not on any site plan. I can find it. I'm not sure when it went in There's a whole ton of ground now the mechanical behind the vents Sort of basing the this hotel I don't think that was ever memorialized on a site plan or treated by anybody It's an opportunity for the board to try to get that Or we do that now or do we do that later? Oh, that's later Well later, but I think what you know what you say is, you know Compliance that the bylaw needs to be addressed site Which I I called out parking that way the staff notes, but you could emphasize it if you want Parking lighting landscaping by parking A.A. Ashing cars here Yes screening of mechanical screening of dumpsters If the post office is doing anything that we would call outside storage that should really Go away. I don't know that they really are they do have a loading dock You know pretty clean over there, but You know, they should be in communication with public works about any desired future sidewalks much as Heartworks and three friends partnership You didn't get anything in the public works memo about it, but I would still encourage them to Ask public works. They don't find that way in the game that somebody wants a big sidewalk. It's not shown Yeah, there's a there's a I've biked through Blair Park recently because I've been taking Zephyr road On my bike and there's this poor guy with a block or not It comes out of Blair Park road from the bus stop He's in the street with this block Yeah, the chair will happily go on on record amongst ourselves Mm-hmm So Yeah And there's nothing that we can see that that's what I was getting at when I'm talking about this this elevation that's right It's a road because there's a huge difference when that Four stories and then a pitch group on top of that 20 feet away from the sidewalk or whether there's a one or two story section and it steps back I mean, could we could we you know, could we say the same what you had said that? Oh, I don't know if Bob Moore feels about this but turning that 90 degrees so it faces the road Somebody if you do That's That's really what you're getting though is you're getting you know, you get an end with a wall right along the road versus a massive 150 foot long 50 foot block you're going to see so At least your vision you're at least your vision line At least your vision line is you drive into wilis today will go along you know the wall Along the road as opposed to This as you're coming in right It's the difference between Okay, so they tried it who cares if they tried tell them to go do it. No When you go I mean, I mean we can get capsule guides we can we can tell them to do that if you want to And then they could come back in and Well, they're into that That's that's hard But that's developer speak We didn't like the way I work there from a civil engineering standpoint, so therefore There's not a good solution that we like We don't want to try it anymore My response is always They can build a Hoover dam they can do that They're trying to maintain visibility That's that's that's the biggest issue I have the I get back to this whole with the shared parking study and all that and you're looking site-wide at the parking Is there a real possibility that we're going to be able we could have them getting rid of some of the surface I mean to go to the paper feather you don't need that second row parking as close as the road So they they have First off, they have proposed additional service parking on this plant right now. This is more service parking than there is there today, right You know, I I would encourage you guys to look at this the way you look at You know when we took mabel to replace who wanted to expand and say well, you're gonna knock your shared parking out You're gonna knock 20 out out of that Now mabel to replace this case that's still justified an increase But you know Even a few spaces that might buy you a bigger green On the on the side slash front of the hotel There's kind of a funky thing going on in that Northeast corner you see you see the space that's Exed out that's 90 degrees to the other ones. Um, that's that's weird For lack of a more technical term Yeah, I don't know if there's a grade element there that there are also Yeah, I think you're right I think they're gonna have some engineering issues on the backside like Paul was talking about I They haven't done a whole lot of psych There's not a lot of design work either Because this is as I somebody said I think this is a this is a file photo from the The hotel Yeah I mean, there's the only Only But this is this is this is like one line diagram of I mean You got hold off that hotel through the parking garage Oh The other thing that we can always communicate to the applicant You know based based on what we see given when they file for discretionary and based on you know, how it responds to what you tell And we can say things like we do to some applicants like you should expect this to take more than one week You know, and that's that's always the board's option to say, you know, we want this continuance, but Um, you know, we can say things to happen It's like the board's not gonna like that or the board's gonna want to see a lot more detail on this before you move forward But it's a good time to come in and you know get that process started You know, you guys have a long tradition of doing a lot of things in one night. Well, you don't have to do The other thing that's missing in this picture is the exhaust units for the parking garage you gotta have A place to get the gases out of out of the building if you go to you go over to the two Senior living centers the one that has been around parking there on Blair circle It has that nice big metal grill where it sucks the You know, the little fans come out suck the exhaust gases out of the building So the question is I don't see I don't see any You know, great it's gonna end up being you know The parking garage So this is pre-application There's a lot of details. There's a lot of detail missing There's a lot of details the applicant is not required to provide So so what the applicant is required to provide a pre-application Is is pretty basic and sometimes we get pre-applications that will have a lot more Detail than that is actually required But all all those sorts of things does it all be required to be shown in pulling engineered drawings with You know part of john hamletharn's comments about you know elevations All that's going to be required when they Understand we don't administer a building So, you know, we're not looking at elevations in that but we don't administer a building code We don't administer a plumbing code a mechanical code. We don't administer any of those codes So, you know, as far as those things are concerned, it's a public building and they would have to meet the state building requirements That's administered by the division of fire safety in the state of vermont, but You know, we're we're not going to be requiring To look at their you know at their ventilation plan for inside of the building I'm going to put it on the inside so I'm just saying those parking blocks have to have that Section outside, so we're going to be looking at all those things as they would appear on the buildings And that would be like the mechanical equipment any of that sort of stuff, but they they'd show us that They came in for destruction over This building is going to be reviewed by the after crime. Yes And they will have some say on Building material certainly Building form building massing The 2020 22 is not so great on things like form and massing so much as articulation and detail Compatibility of materials And with one another or so there would be everything else in town necessarily So there's really no avenue here to do to comment on these things for us As well as open space Um, you know on the site of green space Public This was across the street. You'd have a lot more So hey, hey matt What do you think the argument is if you know we go back to Your your comment in the bylaws or your reading of the bylaws of Four stories depending on the grade What grade the depending on the grade language doesn't actually exist in this zoning district right now Okay Yes So in tap corners the allowance for 52 feet is up here And the restriction on it only being four stories if it's a pet group who's down here in the second paragraph And that's the way it looks over at the crossing In business park only paragraph one which says if you do structure parking or floor Housing you can go to 52 feet only that paragraph But in business park I'm just going to pick a few depths there Well, I thought we were that generally in willis then you were you were all allowed three stories No, generally in willis then there may be some Desire for pitch roofs articulated for commercial buildings Generally willis then you get 36 feet period and there's nothing it's silent on a number of stories But for that one paragraph in the past corner when you access the 52 So if you wanted to squeeze 12 I mean, I mean a little patience here, but but in fact that may be the only place where the idea of a story They ain't a place for that too That may be the only place where the where story is used as a as a description of building form is in is in this idea about the building height You know if I had to guess I would guess that the people who were participating back in You know 2005 2006 around they said, yeah We'll soak it up and let people have a little more height if they do think we want but we don't want prison architecture With with floors filling all the way up the Right up to the very top and then I got this black roof and it doesn't look very good and you can't screen your mechanical and All right, you have to drive down drive down the I-89 Into new hampshire past leaven and on the right hand side about five miles in that big huge apartment building on the right To what one exit in two exits in? Yeah, you know what apartment? I don't know how many stories there is seven. I think is it isn't the college? some It's just it's monolithic and I I ate in a chinese restaurant that shows me that There was this attempted ground for retail. It was like East side Yeah, I think it was a piece of state college So I would encourage it But there's also They should say we know we're aware there's a there's a serious potential for visual You act Scale is a working We're going to want you to show us how this thing is going to fit within this within the context of my scale and You know Up to it including the positioning of the building on the site And if you feel strongly that you want to know what it looked like rotated 90 degrees and fronting on Roaston road Nothing stopping you from asking I was building this It's a car that went through somewhere It was a six by six It's like an option Where it's just it's just a building Excited Parallel That's exactly what it was That is just Yeah, your name? Roaston road It's very scary What Right so I would just say you know What I'm hearing the board expresses concern about The visual impact from the street The way the building sits on the site And how that sizing building is going to look and feel in the context of the other things that are around it And then it sounds like you might be asking the applicant to show you Your plan or a rendering of what it would look like if it was rotated 90 degrees So the long side face What we asked them to step the building back I know that topic came up You might do that Or you might say you'd really rather see a steeper roof pitch with that fourth floor existing in some kind of an architectural feature I mean what if we step the building back from the road We don't have any grounds to I mean just other than We use their conversation where you say well we're Also, yeah, the most you can peg it to is the intense statements In the design review chapter which say things like design matters the way things look is important Can't quote a chapter You know it's different from saying you gotta be 25 feet back from the road It's it's not as About the way it interacts with the site. Please consider stepping the building stepping the building back five, you know by four That's subjective though, right? This whole board is subjective Well, you know if it's just right by put that back that's right by put that back But if you say it looks good or if by it's we're listening to you know, we're listening to Mack quote the you know Close the bottle by saying, you know, it doesn't matter how the building somehow sits on the site How it interacts with other with other buildings that is subjective. Oh, right, you know, so I don't either This is the only chance we get to say these things We can't enforce Right, what you don't get to do is is deny or prove something based solely on But If if they they're on say we think we're meeting a standard and you say we think you're not The next place to go is back on the intense statement now beginning on a byline try to try to judge those two things Because we we still are we still find our final arbiter of how how this looks on the site within reason So what don't come back with is You know, we step it back and lose some of the rooms to count all of a sudden The performance doesn't work because we run from 96 rooms to 88 That's that's oh, that's what absolutely was going to come Absolutely We can say that we have Well, we're here to do more than that I think we I think we need to say something along the lines of you know, really express our concern about the mass of this building on individual impact and Yeah, and looking for looking for creative solution solutions to mitigate the impact and One option that we've identified is to step back and wills to road but we're we're looking for the applicant to Consider other options as well Is there going I mean this could really be that black eye Well, I I have a feeling that we're thinking it's gonna be the college building right there But based on the slope of that land this building probably won't be the highest building right there The Kidder new house building probably will be around the same height as this building Because this is what you think so? Yeah, because this is this is gonna be at least 15 to 20 feet lower on range than that It's in a little it's in a lower area Right, but you come in and then in that kidder new house sitting right here Right, so it's this is flat This is flat now that in the hill parade starts And the kidder new house is on the hell with fire and built into it though Yeah, it's built into it, but it's the elevation is a lot higher. Is that three that's three stories. Yeah Three stories Yeah, I think you're right And then even the new building that's going to be climbing in your house It's going to be hot. It's just this high too. So that one's up on the bank early My issue is my issue is not necessarily four stories. That's not that's not really my issue My issue is how excited and how it's going to be you coming into wilson Going to driving Yeah, I think we need to make it do something Maybe the front like you say Blackbottom makes a room park area or something there to look appealing. I'm less concerned with that than I am The overall scale of this I mean it's going to remind me of the barns and nobles Which is just too big for all the other buildings that are there that the floor floor is too tall figure The different scale it's like you put a model your model train set the wrong scale What's the length of the uh, I mean I'm I think the data center I think the only reason why it's getting Get away with it is because we've gotten used to it But the reality is the scale that's going to be a while So what do you what do you got What do I have I have The board is concerned with the massing and the visual impact of this building from the street The board requests the applicant show how this building fits into the context including options such as Where the building is cited parallel to wilson road Step back from the street or incorporating the top floor in which people Anything else anybody want to add anything And well as you figure out the first and now Thank you I'm not doing it right now. Is anything else anybody want to add into that Me are we all there you all on board with you know with us? I think we're we're asking I think all those things would make it a better project, but if they say no, I don't know that We can possibly be comfortable that I Doesn't like the regulations are there. We haven't forced any of that Is that you back or the journey you both know they can see Yes, I guess I Don't underestimate the power of persuasion You know I think you know one of the other things I have too is that can you imagine what it's what that's going to be like When you drive into this parking lot you drive by that crazy brick You know thing that's going on to The post office on the front and then you're you know and you drive up to the you know the nice new building and you're Hopefully they are Post office had a long week Yeah I don't know. I thought I heard better better building for all five years Um Yeah, unfortunately retail has been more successful from the government never signs at least longer So it's given it another life I didn't expect to pay their paper cut one of them to be there a year No, but they got the UPS store right next to them between that post office. There's a little You know sort of center of that kind of activity now It works Well, yeah, I mean it's just this is a three and a half bigger lot This is a this is a big site And it's kind of weird the way it's broken up All right, anybody anything you have anything else anybody want to add to this? Okay, no set. All right Uh, okay, town of wilson's development review board is out of deliberation on tuesday, november 14th at 9 0 5 Three items to vote on tonight Um, first up. Do I have a motion for dp? 10-34 chitin and solid waste district Having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application By the wilson development bylaw and having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 14 2017 Except the findings of fact conclusions of law recommended conditions of approval proposed by staff for the amendment of dp 10-34 And approved this request to construct additional stormwater improvements as described and depicted on the Submitted site plan for the operation of an organic waste recovery facility on the subject property This approval authorizes the applicant to submit final plans for the signature of the administrator in accordance with the approval of this permit by the drb And to seek the approval of administrative permits and strict accordance with those final plans in order to develop the site as approved Uh, thank you Do i second i'll second it They've seconded any further discussion No further discussion all in favor All right No abstentions One two three four five six seven seven eyes no nays motion carries I have a motion for dp 18-08 quinland residential subdivision as authorized by wdb 6.6.3 Having reviewed the application submitted in all company materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and advisory boards Acquired to comment on the application By the wilson bylaw and having heard and duly considered The testimony presented at the public hearing of november 14 2017 Except the recommendations proposed by staff for the review of dp 1808 And authorized the applicant to proceed to residential growth management allocation Great i'll second John seconds it any further discussion We want to basically make the statement about the Lot one No Any other discussion All in favor i i i seven eyes no nays motion carries Do i have a motion to approve dp 18-06 vermont hotel group? Yes as authorized by wdb 6.6.3 i john hemmelgarn moved at the wilson development review board having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application by the wilson development bylaw And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearings of november 14 2017 accept the Accept the recommendations proposed by staff for the review of dp 18-06 And authorized the applicant to proceed to discretionary permit review. We're going to add two recommendations number five The applicant shall provide site-wide compliance with the bylaws including ada And bicycles parking outdoor storage lighting signage equipment screening buffers, etc and recommendation number six The board is concerned with the massing and the visual impact of this building from the street The board requests the applicant show how this building fits into the context Including options such as citing the building parallel with wilson road Stepping it back from the street Or incorporating the top floor into a steeper roof Back on the first back on the first Recommendation that you added Is there are we going to get into trouble by listing out all of those different areas? Matt had originally said something along the lines of compliance with the bylaw will be required site-wide Broad covers everything doesn't doesn't I don't mind striking off the examples Okay, so let's let's do that. Let's do that and reread it Says it'd be recommendation number five applicant shall provide site-wide compliance with the wilson development bylaw Okay, you guys okay with that Makes sense Matt Okay. All right everybody on the board. Okay with that. Yep. Okay Okay, so so two additional recommendations anybody, uh, do I have a second? Dave seconds it Any other discussion? Everybody's okay with those two? Yep. Okay all in favor I Seven eyes no nays motion carries Let's see piece of business DP 18-01 handy banquet facility hearing Has had been continued and has now been scheduled for February 27th 2018 Do I have a motion to approve the minutes of october 24 2017? I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of october 24 2017 as written Okay, Pete makes the motion Do I have a second? Second john seconds it Um, any further discussion on that? Just a question on the Yeah Yep, we still we still miss the conditions of approval are in here and that's just that's just kind of That's the format we follow even though it's denied That was part of the record so the conditions of approval were part of the record and we denied them. Yeah The conditions were not adopted. So the you know the motion says there's a denial the conditions It's a record of what staff recommended should you go for approval, but you didn't Um Everybody's still okay with the mittens minutes as written Um Okay, who made the motion I made the motion he made the motion who seconded john seconded all in favor I I did everybody vote Seven eyes no nays motion carries Do I have a motion to adjourn the meeting at 9 12 so most Thanks, everybody. So what do you think guys? You ready to get off?