 of unrehearsed futures, it's a season two, and we're celebrating, as of last Friday, our first birthday unrehearsed futures turned one last Friday. So very exciting. There have been so many wonderful experiences already with unrehearsed futures. Today, tonight, this morning, whatever time zone it is for you, we are inaugurating two innovations the first thing is that my esteemed colleague and longtime unrehearsed futures participant, Frank Chamberlain, I'm gesturing into his box, is going to be curating and I'm going to be co-piloting. This is a wonderful thing. Thank you, Frank, for taking the wheel. And the second innovation is that we have decided that we are going to split the session. Just try this as an experiment into two halves. The first 45 minutes, roughly, we're going to record and the second 45 minutes, we are going to stop recording. And we hope that this will enable the community discussion to be a little bit freer, less self-conscious. We can explore ideas without feeling that we have to have everything right the first time that we are going to be recorded for infinite posterity. So we're hoping that it can be more of a discussion in the second half of the show. And as people who've attended before will know, after the show, we just hang out. So the show doesn't stop. So that bit will just sort of extend into everybody's afternoons, evenings, whatever you'd like to do if you want to stay. So this session, we're going to be considering together this very bedeviled issue of neutrality and the subtitle is in actor training, the subtitle being help or hindrance. And I'm going to leave it to Frank to introduce our two wonderful guests, Ellie and Madhu. But before that, I'm going to introduce Frank. So Frank Chamberlain is emeritus professor in drama, theater and performance at the University of Huddersfield in the United Kingdom. He's founding editor of the Rutledge Performance Practitioner series, which he continues to edit in collaboration with Bernadette Sweeney. He edited contemporary theater review for its first decade, as well as the book series Contemporary Theater Studies. He's published on actor training, particularly on the works of Michael Chekhov, but also De Kru, Barba and Lukak. Frank regularly creates and co-creates performances addressing social issues. So thank you, Frank. And why don't I hand it over to you at this point? Thank you, Amy. So we have two guests today. Madhu Nataraj. Madhu Nataraj is an award-winning choreographer, arts entrepreneur, curator and educator with over 300 choreographers to her credit and performances in over 36 countries. She studied contemporary dance in New York and founded the STEM company, Space, Time, Energy Movement, dance company, which comprises verticals of training performance, documentation and outreach. Madhu has studied Indian martial art forms of Tongta, Kalari Payat and several folk and ritualistic forms. She is a certified yoga teacher pursuing a postgraduate studies in anthropology and also heads India's premier dance education centre, the Natya Institute of Katak and Choreography, founded by Dr Maya Rao and Kamala Devi. Sorry, Kamala Devi Chattopadi under the aegis of UNESCO. Wow. And Ellie Nixon trained at the École Jacques Le Coq International Theatre School in Paris from 1987 to 89, and in 89 she co-founded the La Manche International Theatre Company. The company is produced over 25 theatre projects performing throughout the UK, Europe, Scandinavia, Central and South America. Her research explores approaches to contemporary performance practice and performer training. She is currently running a BA acting course at Bath Spa University. Thank you. Welcome. How shall we kick off with this question of neutrality? Ellie, would you like to start? First of all, it's a really great honour to be sharing a platform with Madhu and Frank and Amy and all of you. I've really enjoyed attending unrehearsed futures when I can. I think the conversations when I can join them are very generous and I have really enjoyed how presenters have been so honest in sharing their ideas and concerns and suggestions. So I've really been sort of picking up on the salient points as I've been attending all of these sessions. My particular interest in neutrality is related more with the book I'm writing which is called Imagining Bodies and Performer Training and it's really about connecting Le Coq's more poetic, the poetic dimension of Le Coq's training to the French philosopher Gaston Bachelot and that sense of connecting relationally with the world and particularly with the pre-socratic elements of the earth, air, fire and water. So I'm really enjoying rethinking about the neutral mask. My training in the mask at the Le Coq School was an amazing reimagining or rethinking about what teaching and learning is. We weren't given a module outline or any suggestions of what we were going to be doing or any outcomes or learning outcomes. It was a journey of discovery and I think that that is something that has inspired me in terms of the teaching at the Le Coq School and so rather as a corrective tool I think if we think of neutrality as something yes that helps us to make connections, to reveal, to think about space, to think about the world and to think about connecting with others rather than that sense of being in your own head. In a world predominantly rooted in what American psychologist Robert Sadejo describes as a me cosmology I think the neutral mask can decentralise our dependence on the role of the self. So there you go. Wow. Madhu, do you want to pick up a response? Thank you Frank, thank you Frank and I'd like to say a huge thank you to all of you for having invited me here and initially when I joined in I thought I was the Le Coq pariah here because Ellie, Amy and Frank sort of have had immersive training in the form but very soon they led me into the philosophy and I started to find so many resonances in the Indian pedagogic technique. So neutrality as a concept is actually not taught as a separate phenomenon in Indian dance. So we are sort of led to that space through several processes and the first is something that is common to almost all classical dance and martial art forms which is the concept of the sadhana or the riyadh which is through iteration constantly repeating until your mind and body are saturated with the learning that you find a point of counterbalance and of equipoise and there you find your sense of neutrality. Also the rhythm cycle is called sum or sama which is also a term for neutral in Sanskrit some means neutral. The time is cyclical you believe that you started one point and then you return to that point so there's a 16 beat time cycle 10 beat time cycle whatever it is and that kind of becomes your mandala to birth neutrality in the sense that you travel you collect all these experiences and then you find because integrity is you know something that you find in India you don't separate you keep collecting until the point where you can distinguish and I'd like to say in my Katha training as a Katha performer the stance or the sthanaka is also called you know the starting point the sama is start over here and you come back over here so you layer as you start to create movement and you come back to the same spot so in the sort of how shall I say the pure dance technique there is actually a term for it but not so when you look at the Nrithya aspect where you're bringing in the expressive elements also there is one concept of becoming a character so if the dancer is the conduit if I'm a medium then at one point I have to become the dance and especially with in the dance theater tradition especially in the folk and operatic forms we have a concept called the pathra or the pathra travesh the pathra is the vessel but in order to take on the shape of that vessel of that character we first have to empty our own crucible is what one is taught to time and in order to receive that new experience and to become that character also I wanted to say that there is a very interesting concept for neutrality in the Indian aesthetics and poetics and it's called sadharini karana which means universalization of the rasa or of that emotion that the audience has to feel in a sense it's called the self-forgetfulness in order to transfer that experience from a neutral space to an audience who also in the Indian aesthetic concept are called the sehre there the co-resonators of this journey of dance so this is where I'm coming from I thought I'd offer a slightly different perspective from the Indian dance dramaturgy angle thank you right I'll lead you on to respond to that does anything immediately I think it's there are there are so many connections and you know neutrality is often defined as feeling indifferent nothing in particular and a lack of preference for one way or the other and I think the madhu is just shown that it's not that at all and and that it doesn't mean ridding yourself of all your personal traits of moving talking or being it doesn't mean ridding you of your habits or finding a correct posture and I think what it what it what it does perhaps in response to what madhu's saying is is and I'm talking coming at it from a different angle it sort of temporarily shatters our habitual ways of seeing doing and feeling and it brings us back to that state that harroway also terms as not knowing um quite often we're so dependent on I need to know what's going to happen before we do it or um Ellie are we allowed to or can we or should we um and I think it's madhu has described a really important cyclic or a space a space of not knowing um which is what Donna harroway terms it it's she describes it as a quasi uh buddhist value and and that the appreciation of not knowing and letting that be is something you learn in a serious relationship it's a kind of letting go um and so I'm talking about it perhaps it I don't know maybe more ethereally but in terms of learning and teaching that's what's obsessing me at the moment but I think also that sense of starting from the same point going on that journey coming back to the same point having that space um where you can shift direction change your ideas be open to new ones um and I think that that in those sense perhaps madhu and I connect the points of transition of transformation of moving from one thing to another from one character to another um madhu do you want to yeah yes absolutely uh thank and uh Ellie thank you so much for you articulated so beautifully I get lost listening to you but yes um you know there is a concept also uh you know I'm talking from my cuthug standpoint of what you call the eka patra abinaya and if you'd like at a later point I can write all these terms down and send them to you all uh eka patra abinaya is that one person who takes on several characters who as a solo artist most of our classical forms um you know um germinate from the solo uh dance tradition and only in the 21st 20th century do you see them turning into um group productions you know for the proscenium so um if I have to play five characters in a span of 20 minutes and I remember Ellie and Frank demonstrating to me with the with the mask how how how you use the neutral mask and become uh that uh element or or a person um so we have uh various devices one of them is called the palta where you turn and you become a character and they it's it's almost like working with the polarities and you have to have um a lot of a mature dancer sometimes I think is the perfect conduit because you have collected those experience and you can shift from that space of neutrality to to becoming the character and back um you know and also we we looked at the similarities and how you shift from one to the other um and I I completely agree with you it's not really about forgetting who you are because how do you you know sort of leave your cultural compass in a sense your imagery that you inform by a behind and I think neutrality in that sense has to do with holding onto your distinction in some manner uh before you transfer into another character so I will perform my path Abhinaya differently from Ellie for example but we will still create the same rata uh in the audience uh of of horror or disgust of whatever it is in terms of teaching uh uh you know this these are again in India as I said everything is garb in symbology so much that definitely neutrality I understand is is is an undercurrent you know and uh when I when I teach uh if I teach Kathak then of course it is it is a time to ask them to drop the other baggage or to unlearn I'm constantly asking dancers to unlearn in in in the contemporary scenario sometimes uh dancers enter a space knowing that they are going to be trying movement that has a universality about it already uh you know it's not sort of blocked by the rigidity of a certain form and I find that over there moving from neutrality to uh you know becoming that particular element the dance itself um in I sometimes find uh a little more easier uh in in movement transparent I would say so I just wanted to say that could I add um also just going right back to Lecoq on this point that Mardy brings up I mean he describes the neutral as a state of combining calm and curiosity and I think that's what we you know it's that space that we very rarely allow ourselves particularly in in what's happening in in the contemporary world but that as a learning group it's a group of learners together along with the educator we we we discover a sort of an accepted reference point um that we work through and work out together and it's through that as Lecoq says that we discover our own point of view and so of course there's as he says you know there's no such thing as absolute and universal neutrality it's merely a temptation but that sensation of calm prior to action um a state of receptiveness to everything around us with no inner conflict is absolutely that I think it's actually a felt space I don't think it's um a rigid you know it's not a nothing space it's something that we can discover and feel and sense I am in a neutral space as as a reference point and then when you do have to shift from character to character to character you've been through that the rigor probably of that training and it becomes second nature to you um Coppo says something quite interesting Mardy that he says an act of a snow how to be silent to listen to answer to remain motionless to start a gesture follow through with it come back to motionless and silence with all the shadings and halftones that these actions imply I'm going to pick out something from the the chat if that's okay um Amy's asked the question if we're looking at also at a mask and a dance form is there not a tension between the repetition of existing form or having a form dictated and the not knowing to which you are both giving value I think you might have just answered that I suppose they're not knowing um riffing here but I think that they're not knowing is your availability or disponibly I'll say it's saying it in Spanish but thinking about it in terms of yeah it's a sort of some people here would call it a pre-performance it's a stepping stone towards something it's not necessarily the performance itself and um I think well my interest is it absolutely in its connection to that sense of the poetic I mean I'll never forget uh because the teachers at the Lakoc school of course never show you how to do something but I do remember Lakoc in the Queen Elizabeth Hall I think it was the late 1980s the first time I saw him wear one and the impact of that and getting a sense actually that it's about carrying a vibration um an amplification or reaching out you know the walls of the Queen Elizabeth Hall stopped the energy went beyond that and so I think that that's an energy that you carry with you or the resonance that you carry with you that can go through the rigors of form um so for example I'm writing something on judo as a devising form but I think that they that they tune in to that disposition um or that availability that the mask offers what do you think Madhu um I think in answer to that question Ellie and Amy I would think that I just think of balance of the two of of the value of iteration because it gives you your muscle memory and also somatic intelligence in a sense uh I mean there are times there are there were some pieces as as I now I've been dancing for work 30 years and I learned a lot through Osmosis too and there are and you can make me I'm in the middle of a night and there's a certain piece called the Parana I will do it you know the big blood I think to think at all but it also allows me uh in that sense to lose myself uh because because in a sense my it's already gotten yeah got into my genetic memory in a sense and I think I have to be able to I want to have mastery over the form but this ease of coming in and out which allows me to to also forget so I think it's it's a strange collision of the two but I I would probably choose a balance does that make sense I think so um I'm wondering about um the but they were talking a little bit earlier earlier you were talking about um kind of energy and I was I came interested in the way in which um you know the techniques and the physical techniques the ways of channeling or constructing flows of energy yes um and so how how this relates to neutrality I mean when we're working with with the neutrons with neutrality how does that work with what is what's a neutral energy or there's a positive and negative what's a neutral energy does that have any kind of meaning in this conversation I see it as a sense of you know an openness to resonance that there's a I live by a river and um there are lots of reeds in the river and kingfishers and when a kingfisher sits on a reed it's in constant vibration and movement but appears to be still it's a sort of an active space a space of readiness in the moment a way of corporeally or bodily listening that I I think um is I think it's an it's that sort of energy which is a held energy but it's a it's it's yeah it's a sense of vibration rather than a solid form I mean there's a beautiful moment which reflects I think that moment that I saw of Lecoq doing this he just sort of opened his arms and he was wearing the neutral mask there's um an improvisation that we do we did at the Lecoq school that we carried on at our school in Chile at La Mancha school of image and gesture which is the fundamental journey which was broken down beautifully by the staff at the Lecoq school and it was you were in a way guided through the journey but never told how to do it and you bit by bit discovered that energy of this invisible terrain that you were actually inventing through the process of um in an empty space you know climbing mountains um uh going through water uh running down mountains going through forests coming out of the sea and then there's this beautiful moment at the top of the mountain or when you're looking down or out which I felt that Lecoq captured and the French philosopher Gaston Bachelot calls it a panoramic gaze and he says in sweeping the gaze around the horizon the dreamer takes possession of the whole earth if only we take pains to look and it's that sense of having an energy which isn't internal but it's outward facing does that make sense Frank? Makes sense to me yeah yeah I'm just I'm just wondering here whether this is what you meant by equipoise model when you did this idea of the the image of the kingfisher balanced on the reeds sensing um things that are part of this kind of energetic movement yes I think that means it absolutely. I was also thinking of of an instance I mean in cultural anthropology um I mean you study um before going into movement analysis um this exo music college is called Kurtzaks and um you know um and he speaks of um dances in harmony with the body and dances out of harmony is the body so in harmony with the body are dances you sort of have control over so the neutral space being your starting point but the intent is completely different dances out of harmony with the body are more extroverted hunting dances you know could be you know initiation ceremonies but close dances are to do with being closer to an imageless sense to be to be closer to the womb to the center of gravity etc and I I think that's a fabulous example also of of of moving from a point of of being hinged as Ellie said about the kingfisher and also creating this sort of expansion on the other hand in Indian dance like I said everything used to be codified in order to maybe find your own voice a little later you have the concept of last year and Sandoval which is the rigorous vigorous dancing like the expanded dance and the lyrical which is uh you know the closed dance and in a composition in a progression you can see both you know and the ability to do that again comes through factors and iterations I just thought I'd share that that the image came to mind as Ellie was speaking thank you there's something um Frank going back to this sense of energy that Rosie Braidotti says she she she offers you know magic vision of the body as a multifunctional complex transformer of flows energies effects desires and imaginings and I think um I'm just talking about the neutral mask at this point it's that holding it's a space for holding all of that and it really gives a sense to the learner I mean I got it for the very first time in my life having done a degree and acting and performing I got a sense and it was a slow process for me of suddenly getting an embodied sense of who I am of um that you know my fingers and my toes and they all can you imagine they're all um nation and also yeah I think I think we've lost you Ellie Silver yeah can you hear me yeah you dropped you dropped out for a second um John can you can you repeat that last bit again um yeah just that I think with the neutral mask for me um in at the in my experience at the Lecox school um was for the first time a sense of my embodied self of in relation to the world um rather than being in my head all the time I had the opportunity to develop myself and be myself and explore myself in relation to others and to other they're more than human I suppose would anybody like to comment on discussion so far um I'm just um thank you I'm just going to uh I have a little bit of prior knowledge unrehearsed futures is not entirely unrehearsed haha um I just wanted to uh just uh because I have some prior information about um the anecdotes that you've both given uh Madhu and Ellie about how neutrality figured in your creation of new work so so it was I was particularly struck by those anecdotes uh I remember Madhu you talked about that very eloquently but would you mind telling us again about this wonderful me again and the the the group about this experience the way you position neutrality and innovation funding which one of those anecdotes we shared a lot I remember we had like a two three hour conversation I I just wanted to share um an anecdote actually about a theater company um that I worked with but before that you know something came to mind when uh Frank was asking us about um if it's possible to shift um you know completely there is a dance form if you see the folk and ritualistic forms in and in and the jatras of course we have that vision of the female and the male dancer the Arjuna Rishwa constantly shifting from one to the other just one dancer they call impersonators but there is also a very interesting character in uh folk forms called who's called who's the mediator character who became becomes female when he's talking to a woman to get her secrets and then the same person turns around just the other side and starts becomes male and speaks to another just thought of an interesting image uh so I was telling Amy um Ellie and Frank the other day that I uh I've had the good fortune of working with several theater directors um the past two to two and a half decades and one of them uh was in particular peculiar um person Dr. Karan TV Karan and he believed in the Natya tradition of each dancer being a you know of course trained in theater but also a dancer and musician and um Rangayana is the theater company that he founded in my store and these actors have had training for 15 years or so and the um one day Mr. Karan calls me and says Madhu I want you to choreograph something for me the contemporary piece I said okay with my dancer they said no with my theater actors and I was just thinking you know how are they going to do this so he said I said okay Karan Ji when when is the event and he said a week from now and I said hopefully I took it up it was a 10 minute choreography nothing short so I land up at the space at the studio and there are these 15 dancers I'm sorry actors or farmers let me call them and um I said okay and it was about the um the the concept of aviation it was called flights of fancy or something like that for an area and their show so I started working with them and it was so easy and within two days I had transferred the choreography onto them these were not dancers but they lived this philosophy of learning and saturating their mind body spirits in such a way that they could easily they were perfect neutral ground to take on and the funny part I see any uh smiling is that uh I kept calling Karan Ji and Karan Ji when is the music coming when is the music coming you know and costumes and I know costumes they're going to just wear you know their black t-shirts and tights and that's it I said okay music you'll get it tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow till the day of the event we didn't have music and I was having babies and the actors were all you know having a smoke and sitting around checking their horns and all that not bothered they were used to this and the music arrived five minutes before the show and we all heard it for the first time on stage and the actors did a fabulous job to me that was really a space uh the space that you know that they did created uh of uh neutrality I mean just jumping from one to the other uh was was absolutely fascinating but I almost had a nervous breakdown doing that we speak of it but to see it um as that closely was actually quite quite scary and wonderful also so is this the story Amy? Yes I mean it's very related the one that I remembered was the one where you said uh you you were uh devising from your background based on experiences you had in New York and you just waited basically for the new form to come through you I thought that was really would you like me to share that or have I taken too much time? I thought I thought I'd love to hear yeah sure sure yeah so um this this was a time about um 20 odd years ago when I was still studying in New York I was at the Limone Center and Martha Graham Center and I at one point started to miss both the fragrance and stench of India and I felt I needed to create imagery that that I was informed by as I grew up etc but also found a universal language and having come back I had to learn through trial and error and uh revisited all the forms and I looked at these forms now very differently from a from a space of neutrality in a sense because I again I unlearned and learned everything again before I could transfer it uh into into my um to vocabulary that we were forming and uh which was both the sort of personified the collision and the mysticism of India in a sense uh in in the body sense so thank you there are some fascinating comments in in the chat and I'm wondering if we might start to pick those up now um just to scroll scroll up a bit I think um so sorry I'm taking a bit of time flying to um I'll I'll go back if I miss anybody and come back um I hope I'm uh says I connect to the idea of neutrality as pre-performance or reference point um a receptive place so I wonder are there specific qualities of a performer's neutrality for example I would argue that a performer's neutral is much more energized than an everyday state are there other qualities do these canvases vary from discipline to discipline so I think I've put that as a kind of open question comment if anybody wants to respond to it or Ho Fan if you want to say more yeah hi everyone so I'd love to say a bit more so I trained under the lockhawk system and then afterwards I came back to Hong Kong and I learned with other disciplines including for example Bouto, Japanese dance form and so on so I've been hearing a lot of very good definitions of neutrality that I have to do very much about what I I would use the metaphor of the canvas in the sense that it is a foundation for a performer to be ready to be present to be receptive and so on so in that sense it seems like under the title it would definitely be a help not a hindrance but I would like to introduce this idea because I've been through the lockhawk system of when maybe certain neutralities become a hindrance or could they are different modalities of different neutralities that we can access and I think that that is where I'm interested right now because I feel like being present as a performer being open-minded being you know ready I feel like that that's just the basis of performance and just to add a little bit I would feel like that this foundation is an energized state it's a state that is more live a more sensory open and in some ways it steps beyond our everyday time so Madhu was very good when talking about the idea of circles and return and I do believe that theater we give a more intense experience or performance in general we give a more intense experience to people that is beyond the everyday experience of life through that we in dance in butu dance in particular they talk about everyday time as linear so we we go from A to B very often in life but it becomes a dance when we access cyclical time or we access repetition we access different understandings of time so that just that as a foundation of neutrality but I want to throw out this idea of the idea that Lecox neutrality is I would characterize as very extroverted energy we even the neutral stance I would feel it's very energized in the hara the center we're projecting we talked about projecting in the music hall projecting two different spaces we're throwing energy at the audience pretty much and I also feel there are different types of neutrality that do not just feed the audience if we look at a lot of if you look at very classical Chinese films and you know the woman in Chongsam and there's a different type of aesthetic which is very interesting similar to the Kingfisher I think in which the person has a presence a particular feminine presence that is very inviting and magnetic and yet it's a very different type of energy than someone than a type of throwing outwards and I feel like in my journey in performance it's important to be able to freely access both aspects to be extroverted and to be introverted at the same time yeah so I just want to throw this out there in the sense that having a flexibility I feel like as a performer is important so I want to tease out qualities beyond just the idea of okay we are present now and open and ready for performance and to look at the different modalities of campuses or accesses of different types of qualities that we can have and maybe supported by disciplines and philosophies too because for example in Bhutto the emphasis is not so much on a body it comes there is some Buddhist tradition behind it in the sense that they believe that performers and indeed us human beings basically rent this body in this part time so we should be able to able to discard and put on these these different shapes that we shift in right and out of and Bhutto is you basically go from image to image and character to character in the dance and all these in that sense the form doesn't even exist the idea is to get out of the way of the image and totally get out of the way of almost like channeling in that sense although a very skilled Bhutto performer my teacher would say you need to be half shaman in the sense that you have a very stronger grounded aspect of technique you're aware you're aware where the light is you're aware of the audience you know how to present at the same time you're actually channeling that particular image or that particular form and there's a leak between assembly and the metaphor in the sense when you perform you don't become like a cat you become a cat like mentally you just have to shift into that place and when you shift into that place where you are that thing then there comes the receptiveness that Ellie was talking about in the sense that it is new it you are that presence informs you of the thing so yeah can I respond to that Frank is that okay yeah I that's that's fascinating I think I haven't really talked about it as a as a as a performative as a way into performance although I know that it's accepted as that I feel that it's a gateway into making into creativity into making making your work I wouldn't describe the Cox pedagogy is as a system that's what I really feel I think it's an approach to learning which you take what you want from it but I do think that there is a double flow of our attention that I don't think it's just being aroused by the external world I think it's also you know the inner and the outer and and that connection between but it's really fascinating that you're connecting it to to buttock because they are all interrelated that's that's me Madhu yeah I'm listening to Hopa and you Ellie I think I was just thinking you know neutrality is almost to me I think it's about coming home in a sense you know before taking off to whatever it is that I am being that day whatever it is that I am becoming when I'm becoming my dance in that state and I remember I think listening to these whirling dervishes of Konya as they're sitting down and as they're meditating they say that when you have the realization that there is an inner and outer order that you're you know constantly trying to navigate but in this case with rhythm so I think also another point about about butto that you were making I think in Indian dance also we have and I think I would be dancing at a Jehan would agree especially when you look at the folk forms or practical forms we have the concept of unity of space and time so you move around one circle around a room and you're in heaven you move around and you've moved to a cave somewhere you know and so I think to be able to not only look at what you are becoming or not but to to the juxtaposition of space and time also going on constantly and you're working within the parameters of a form which by itself is very complicated I think there has to be a very strong sense of home and neutrality to in order to do that and I definitely think in the context of tonight today is the discussion is it help or hindrance I would go with help thank you we've gone over the 45 minute time and I tried to make a couple of interventions and I realized I had myself muted so they didn't work so we've gone over the 45 minutes we can we can go for another five minutes of recording I think if people would like that to happen or we might we could just settle with neutrality being about home and then play from there does anybody want to commit anything to the record or should we just move into closing closing the the the recorded session and moving into the more free for all do you hand sign close okay so recording often thank you