 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Behel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Welcome, Anvita. Thank you, Seema. And welcome to our podcast this week. And with that, today I want to follow up on last time's podcast, which was around fantasy and how to create fantasy and build fantasy. We've had a lot of emails, a lot of questions about it. And I want to go a little bit further into it with looking at coercion in fantasy, which I know is intrinsically it almost feels like it's a paradox. It's like a contradiction in terms because if you're fantasizing and you're merely thinking about stuff, you're not actually doing it physically. Then is there something known as forcing the other person to fantasize along with you? Is that even a thing? Well, yeah, I think that is a really interesting question, right? Because if you're just asking somebody to imagine something, then can there be coercion involved? So that is a great question. But I do think if people don't know, if they don't know their own values and beliefs, like if you're asking them to imagine to do something which doesn't match with their values and beliefs, I think that can be really complex and that can be really tricky because if you're going to feel dirty or yucky or something that you feel like demeaned because you're doing it or something, like if those are the emotions that are coming up for you by imagining that fantasy, then that's problematic, right? Like, you know, that defeats the purpose because the whole point of the fantasy is to raise arousal and to get you excited. So if that's not happening, then I'm guessing it doesn't work? So I picked three questions and what I want to do is I want to start with a couple of them, but then I want to spend longer on the last one, which I think is the most edgy one of the lot. And it's actually listening to it is also quite, I don't know, disturbing almost because where does it become self-sufficient and where does it become something that you're being coerced into? So the very first one, and I think in this case, it's almost like self-consent, but it's from a young girl who says that she followed our video from last time, the podcast from last time, and she decided to go with the fantasy exercises. And she says they were great because she's never been able to do a fantasy right to the end before. And so she managed to do it, which is brilliant. And she said she tried out all three fantasies. They were great. She managed to orgasm. But now the problem is that she fantasized about herself in a different body shape. So she says that she's a little bit more chubby and she looks a certain way. But in her fantasy, she was like the hottest thing that walked the planet. And while it was fantastic, now she feels that that's the image that stuck in her head. And she doesn't know whether she can face reality looking at looking as she does. So if I if I just go with the theme of coercion, and that's what came up with me, it's like, it's like a partner saying you'll only be attractive if you're a certain body shape. Right. And that's what she's saying to herself that I will be sexy or I'll be the hottest thing on this planet if I am a certain body shape. And what would it mean to actually fantasize in the body shape you are, you know, and you basically get the feeling that you're the hottest thing that you are the sexiest thing, the way you look and the way you are. And I think that feeling is something that you can replicate and take on to your relationships and everything. Taking a body is not maybe that easy or possible. And what I do want to say is that I respect that it's a difficult feeling. I understand that it's a complex feeling. It's very easy for me to say, oh, just feel sexy who cares about the body. I know the world is all about the body shape and body type and that's a lot of pressure and everything. So I don't want to take away from the sentiment. I understand and I agree that it is difficult. It is hard. People society does judge on that level and getting out of that cycle, you know, literally takes a superstar a lot of times and everything. So I'm all I'm saying is I want to respect that sentiment. But if you can fantasize with your body type and change your fantasy to make yourself thinking, oh, in that body shape and body type, I could actually be the hottest person be the sexiest person and the partner wanted me because they were attracted to my body shape. That just changes it because I think the feeling of being sexy you can actually replicate and take with you to other relationships and other things. I think I want to add to that. But in that particular session, Anvita actually said this. She said, it's not my body that makes me sexy. It's my mind. And I think you made a very positive point of pointing that out. You said, you know, it'll be the conversation that I have. It'll be the jokes that I make. It'll be all the clever little quips that I make. And that will be what is sexy. And that's what will seduce the other person. And I just want to repeat that that, you know, feeling sexy is something that comes from within you. And like Anvita says, we totally understand how it feels. We know we've all been at the receiving end of what you look a certain way. But still, it has to come from within you. I don't know if it helps, but I want to tell you that, you know, typically if somebody is a little too beautiful to look at. I mean, and it's fabulous to look at somebody who's gorgeous to look at. But you can only look at them for X amount of time. You can really. It's like looking at a chocolate box. It's exquisite. But what do you do after a while? So you can't change the world outside. And there are physical things that you can't change. But maybe the focus or the fantasy can change. Yes, that's what we're saying. So imagine instead that you are fantasizing, same thing, just change the world. OK, so don't change your body shape. Keep the body shape and pretend that that's the body shape that's going to be totally sexy for the person that you're seducing. And then go into the mind and go into your conversation and build that part up because that's far easier to build up and go with. Absolutely. And I totally agree with you. You know, this idea that everybody attractive out there is great at sex or is sexy is it's actually not an equation that matches up. Like, I don't think they can be they can be very attractive and really fitting the societal body types, but might be very boring in bed and might not be sexy at all. So I don't don't buy into the idea that only certain body shapes are attractive, sexy and good in bed. That is not true at all. Those are not synonymous ideas at all. Yeah, so what we're saying is if you actually just twiddle with the fantasy a little bit, just change it slightly and then go forward. So just move it to fit yourself better and the results will be even more powerful and more long lasting. Okay, fantasy number two, the email that came in was again around cuckolding. So it's about this girl who says that she's in a long distance relationship with her boyfriend and that they have a great relationship and they have phone sex often. And he's very into this idea of cuckolding hot wife thing, threesomes, etc. So she says that she goes with it and gets a little bit excited as well. And then the guilt sets in. Then she stops. And she says every time she says no, no, no, I can't do this any further because I want to stop. I feel guilty. The boyfriend is like, okay, fine, we'll stop. And she says that's when the real misery sets in because he says, okay, fine and moves on to talk about other things. She's then left feeling guilty about feeling guilty. So two things I will talk about this. So the first thing is, I think what is really tough for the generation today, you know, active sexually as lots of people active, you know, the generation that we're talking about. In the olden days, at least the idea was very sad sex is bad sex outside of marriage is bad sex should only be for having children any adventures within sex only lose people do and all. So all I'm saying is that this morality jargon was very clear. And not that things didn't happen things happened, but the morality jargon was the, you know, the same and I think there has been little bit of liberation sexually, because variety or diversity in sex always was present and will always remain present. People are just now owning it much more. But what has happened with the owning is now people are like, oh, how do you experiment how often do you experiment what all can you do, and what all have you experimented with. Now it's become more about like how much you are like, you know, edging it and you must have an orgasm and you must have a great orgasm and all. So there's so much pressure around how much you should be doing sexually. And I think people have got stuck between the two, you know, this morality because they've grown up with that so somewhere they feel that. And then they feel the pressure from their peers to be engaging or their partners to be engaging in a different way. And I think that clashes. And this is a great example of that clash right like she's willing to go with it because she thinks she should be sexually progressive, then somewhere she starts feeling guilty because of the morality of the whole thing. And when she says no, she then feels guilty about not being able to be sexual the way her partner or she wants to be. Yeah, I found that really interesting that, you know, because maybe if he was like, no, you have to think about it. She would find it so much easier to rebel or say, okay, he's insisting I do it and I do it or how dare he tell me not to but the fact that he's saying, okay, it's your decision. I think so there's a weird kind of course of mess here. No, but I think that's great because I think what works in a fantasy is when it is yours right like, and what people need to start doing is rather than going into your partner's fantasy. It's taking that idea and building your own because what arouses you is not what arouses him or her. So you can the storyline if we think about it or the backdrop as we think about it can be the same like we spoke about in the last fantasy video so your, your backdrop could be that you're still by the ocean you're still outside. But what in that fantasy arouses you and what in the fantasy arouses your partner, and the two of you can speak about it. Even in this fantasy that she's speaking about it is she needs to build her own storyline of what is attractive because the storyline he's offering is not working for her. There might be aspects of it that might work for her. And also, maybe her boundary for that story is just that much, you know, maybe the boundary for the story is, oh they're multiple sexual partners coming in, you're talking you take out your clothes you touch, but the penetration might be too much. So you can stop the fantasy there and replace it with your own partner right so those are the compromises and the adjustments in the transition that you can do, even within a fantasy, you know we're not even going into reality. But you always have to remember that if a fantasy is making you feel like I said the guilt sadness irritation anger dirty whatever then it's breaking up arousal. So in the fantasy that's your breaking point. Yeah, I think guilt and unhappiness is the worst thing you can do for arousal. I mean they don't go hand in hand. If you're feeling unhappy in your head, you are not going to be having great sex no matter how hot you look so remember it is really all about over here. So finally, it's a great learning for you to say okay this is my boundary so everything before is okay for me. And at this point I feel uncomfortable. So let's not extend the fantasy from here can we build more on what we've discussed previously right and you can and you can build on that fantasy like it can be different. Yeah, actually that's a really good. It's like we talk about edging right when you're going to have an orgasm and you get to that point you want to stop yourself. It's the same thing when you're fantasizing if you actually find that there comes a point where you suddenly think up this is where my arousal is starting to drop, you know that that's the point where your fantasy is going wrong for you so you need to understand this. Okay, final one that I want to bring up because I actually am at my wit's end I've known this particular story for a while this person has been talking to me about her partner's fantasies for a while. Now, the partner has this thing again it's a long distance relationship currently but it wasn't always. The partner has this thing about seeing her as a hot white. He wants her to sleep with multiple people every day so it's every day a different person. Now, in his head the fantasy is gone to the next level where he wants it to sound as real as possible so we've talked about sort of creating fantasy around ourselves and kind of going into this whole thing of you know making it as as suitable to yourself if you want he wants it to be as real as possible. And so he insists that the fantasy has to be around people that he is acquainted with who he knows. He wants her to build stories around having sex with them and every day that sex is supposed to get a little bit more deviant, a little bit harder a little bit more. And it's the details that she says are killing her she says you know I do it just for him I wouldn't mind, but it's so consistent it's so every day. It's so much more every single day that she really doesn't know where the line is anymore, whether it's just a fantasy or whether he's actually wanting it to go into reality. And she says that now what's happened is that just having to do this every day, having to talk about yourself because she's having to build the fantasy and telling you tell him. This is having to talk about myself like this every single day it's making me feel sick about myself that's making me hate myself. And she says it got to a point where one day she said to him I need to stop because I think I'm going to throw up. And he said to her okay I'll wait you go and you can come back and we'll carry on. Yeah, that's not working. Yeah, no working at all. But okay so let's think about this. What is happening here is that he's imposing his fantasy on to her what I kept hearing is that she is playing his fantasy like she's the actress of his fantasy but he if he was a storyteller he's given her the idea, but hasn't even written the script, and is asking her to write the script in acting it decide who the co actors are going to be. What we need to really remember is that the fantasies are yours. And it would mean very different things if he said, I fantasize this way, let me come and share that fantasy right so in my head I'm thinking, you should have someone who should be coming every day and imagining the details and sharing the details and talking about the details because it arouses you. Not the partner so what this expectation that she should come up with the details and she should come up with the storyline, and she should come up with the characters is problematic. But anyways, it might. It's problematic because you need to yourself think about your own values believes what you agree with you agree with it. Do you believe in a monogamy do you believe in, you know, having sex with different people how do you feel about having sexual thoughts about friends. And it's all individual there is nothing judgmental about it there's some people who mentally think, Oh, that friend looks you know I feel very attracted and if I was single. That would be definitely a person I would love to have sex with. And there's others who wouldn't even venture in that category because they think it's wrong. It's individual it's not decided but if you're someone who doesn't even imagine having sex with a friend, and then you're this fantasies imposed on you. That is really hard and that's what I'm saying that it's really hard. So, going back to the idea of your fantasy should be yours. And the two fantasies can meet. But right now what's happening here is he's imposing his fantasy on her. And he is expecting her to do all the work in the fantasy and it's not even her. So if he wants to stay with this fantasy, then he should come with the characters and the details and the storylines and everything. Because obviously this is something that is not giving her pleasure. So if you're a couple and you want to come up with a fantasy, merge your two fantasies together. Here, it's no merging. It's here, it's his fantasy, and she is not receiving any pleasure out of it. It's his fantasy and I think one other person had written and said that you know, my partner likes to think of us as three sons and she says but you know even imagining him with another woman because he wants to introduce another woman into the mix. Imagining him with another woman is really distressing for me and I was just thinking in her case just the because you know it's got to this point where it's so real, which is why I thought that this definitely it comes under the heading of coercion because even in that fantasy, it's actually starting to feel abusive. Yeah. See, because I think absolutely because if in her head, if she has to start imagining having sex with somebody who's known to her. It might be very disturbing and uncomfortable for her because she might have some sanctity of the relationship she might have some respect in the relationship she might have some boundaries in the relationship, and she's breaking all of those to you know, you know, imagine something like this so she is doing, she is really breaking all of those things. Whereas for him, those boundaries might be more stretched you know he might be somebody who can imagine having sex with people, but have a respectful relationship in his you know he might be open to having sex with friends and continuing the friendships and all and so I'm once again there's no judgment, but that's something that is plausible in his world, and there is something uncomfortable in her world, you know. So I think that's where the problem lies so if that's your fantasy and you feel comfortable, then provide the fantasy you know she might be willing to go along with it but you, he can narrate his own fantasy. Rather than forcing her to narrate it in some ways. So tell me something, if it gets to be really difficult, it gets to be bad if it's incessant, which it has been now, you know, because of COVID it's been long distance and it's been incessant for two years. If it gets to be really bad, and this doesn't change and you know your mental state starts to deteriorate because you know you're feeling this pressure to have to come up with things that make you feel sick about yourself. I have to say that at the best of times you cannot fantasize about the same thing every day it's like having dhalchabal every day not like you said last time you can have caviar every day but even that you get fed up of you need a change. So, is it a deal breaker. So I think what we need to remember here is that in any relationship, taking care of each other's pleasure, or taking care of your own pleasure so even if you don't put the responsibility on your partner if you're talking about the sexual relationship. The pleasure of every individual is important, you know, it doesn't work if one person is not experiencing any pleasure and the other one is. And so it doesn't matter if it's fantasy or real life. If your partner is saying at this moment I'm not feeling any pleasure I'm actually feeling like throwing up. There has to be some respect to say, you know let's take care of you right now, like where is the taking care of the partner so you're not really liking this. So rather than saying no this is how I wanted, there has to be respect so I don't know about the, you know, I think every relationship has multiple aspects to it. I definitely think it's okay to say no to say this fantasy doesn't work for me, you need to come up with another one we need to come up with something that is more mutually inclusive to my pleasure and how I feel, because you know, in some ways if you think about it, she can turn around and say, you know, I am unable to have sex or good sex now because this is the only fantasy that I talk about. So there's a big element of her life that has been taken away from her for the cause of this fantasy right. She can definitely in a relationship say, okay, what about my sexual needs and what gives me sexual pleasure, because this is not giving me sexual pleasure. So where is my need and my pleasure in this whole thing. So I think what I have taken away from everything that we've talked about today and I really want to make a point of saying this to everyone out there because we do get, you wouldn't believe how many emails have come in about either men saying, but you know, it's just a fantasy why won't you be part of it or women saying, this is his fantasy, and I don't want to be part, you know, at constantly like there was and also similarly, you know, a man saying, this is her fantasy and I don't want to be part of it. So there is a, there's been a lot of people writing in about the fact that their fantasies do not come together that they don't much that they don't coincide. So I guess what we have said today, number one, which is very, very important that pleasure, any kind of intimacy any kind of intimate relationship should give equal pleasure to both people if that's not happening. Then there is something not okay with it. The other thing is that, yes, it is equally possible to be abusive in a fantasy, just because it's only in the imagination, and you're not doing it in real life, it doesn't mean that it's okay. There's an equal chance of coercion. And even in a fantasy consent is really important if pleasure is going to be equal for both people. And that finally, and I like this point that you made on that I hadn't thought of it like that, that, you know, there is some point in the fantasy where each person feels that their arousal is going up, and there is some point where you feel actually this is it from here it's downward. And so it's about understanding how to merge your fantasies so taking each once and trying to bring them together so that it gives you both equal pleasure because honestly this is something that the Kama Sutra repeats constantly that if intimacy is not equally pleasurable for both it's pointless you know like that's how it should be. And I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept for so many people that pleasure should only belong to one person. No, we've said it over and over and not even in fantasy, should it only be one sided. And if it is very one sided where you can never get your fantasies to meet, then there has to be an equal number of times where one person gets their chance and the other person gets their chance so they play to each other. But yeah, I think what I would like to take away from this particular talk is that understand at what point your pleasure starts to go down where that stops being wonderful for you. And stopping it for yourself over there so you change the direction of your fantasy. Absolutely. And I think it is about saying it is on your fantasies, you know, think about your own pleasure and your own fantasy, and you can see superimposite on each other's fantasy. But till you don't own the fantasy and it's not your fantasy or that's not what's giving you arousal. It's not going to work. And I totally agree with you that it needs to be equal and I can assure you that when your partner, once again gender not agnostic, when your partner is enjoying sex, you're going to exponentially enjoy sex much more. Worse is when your partner is feeling like throwing up, you know, unless that's a fetish, I don't see how sex is good for you, you know, so try the other way around where your partner is enjoying sex. And I think once that is happening or enjoying a fantasy or getting excited by a fantasy or, you know, getting aroused by a fantasy, try that, like if your partner is getting aroused and excited by a fantasy, your fantasy or your arousal will be that much higher, rather than imposing something that is like. And I think a little bit of variety, the idea of introducing fantasy is to take away the monotony to introduce variety. So if you have the same thing every day, you're not then introducing variety or reintroducing monotony. And you know, if it's not working for your partner, it's all in the imagination. So it's not like, okay, maybe even the positions in the Kama Sutra were limited, but fantasies are unlimited. So if one's not working, there's another one available. So there are just unlimited fantasies that you could make and, you know, join and like, like Lego pieces. Yeah, so just come up with something new if this one is not working. And it's just a fantasy so it's a new imaginations, forget the logistics like we said last time and try out anything. I really don't know whether whatever we've suggested today for everybody out there, whether it's something that you will be able to put into practical use immediately, or over a period of time I think it's a difficult one. But I would like you to think about it because this is the sort of thing that will need a little bit of time to do. You know, you can't shift your mental ideas or your mental blocks or your mental desires very easily. They don't happen overnight. Take what we've said on board, try and fix it and remember fantasy should be about pleasure and not about wanting to throw up if you feel like throwing up something is not right over there. And if your partner is pushing you to that point. I really think that if imagine actually being with that person and wanting to go and throw up after sex. You know there is something seriously wrong over there and you do need to take a closer look at your relationship if that's the case. Absolutely, I agree. I just hope that that helps if you have any other questions or you have other things that you'd like to talk to us about and even if it's just comments do comment like subscribe on the video. I'm over here on info.seema.anel.gmail.com in case you want to write into me. And of course, if you want to book an appointment for a session with Dr. Anvita Madan Bahel, she is on. Anvita.MadanBahel.gmail.com. And in the meantime, continue fantasizing they're good for you. But understand what your limits and boundaries are. Don't feel pushed into anything. Just remind yourself constantly. Fantasy equals enjoyment. Remember you're going in there to feel happy to feel good, not to feel awful, not to feel guilty, not to feel sad, not to feel bad about something. Go and be safe, be happy and we wish you good mental health.