 Welcome everyone to the end of this track. So closing out our leading at all levels track is going to be this amazing panel on becoming an engineering leader. I also wanted to remind everyone that we are doing leadership, Birds of a Feather, a Boff tomorrow at 1.50, it's on the board. So if you wanna continue talking about leadership and being a leader regardless of your title, then definitely come and chat with us tomorrow at the Boff. So, Rebecca, Rebecca Miller-Webster is a software engineer, conference organizer, and educator. She is the founder of Rates B Code and practice lead at DevMind. Rebecca has been developing software professionally for over a dozen years and previously organized go-go. Rebecca's hobbies include drinking Diet Coke, wearing trousers, telling computers what to do, pugs, and swearing. Hi, welcome. So I'd like to start with a little audience participation. How many people in the audience like actually are officially managers? Oh, that's a good number. How many of you have a manager? Cool. Does anyone not have a manager? Couple of people. Oh, a known company. You have a manager, sort of. So when I was thinking about this panel, I used the term leader and not manager really intentionally because I think that there's opportunities for all of us to lead at every level that we are. And I also, as someone who is a manager, has been a manager, think that we're always better at giving advice to the person who's just below us. So I really wanted to have a range. I'm gonna let everyone introduce themselves, but you'll see that there's a big range in terms of people's experience on official titles. So I've asked them to tell you their name and a little background about their current leadership and history with leadership and who are a few influences. Do you wanna start, Shay? I can, yes, I'm Shay Howe. I'm the VP of product for a company called Yellow out of Chicago. I've been in design and engineering and product management and leadership for over five years now. Where have I gotten my leadership guidance from? All right, is that the question? Sorry. Influence. Influence. It's from both good and bad managers. I've had really bad managers. I've had really good managers. I think that probably rings true for most people, I hope. A few of which, one specifically, a gentleman named Fred Lee was a really great manager and mentor to myself, and I think really shaped the way I kind of think about it and look at it. And then there's certainly other people in terms of books and things like that I've read, but I'd say certainly Fred has been one of the primary ones. Neha. Hi, I'm Neha. I'm a software engineer at Pivotal and I am an individual contributor. So I'm not a manager yet, but I'm interested. I'm a leader at Pivotal and I had up a few initiatives. I'm also a board member at RightSpeak Code and going into my key influences that is actually one of my key influences is working with RightSpeak Code and eventually being so influenced that I wanted to become a board member and a lot of blog posts that I read and about people that I actually really look up to that's influenced a lot of the decisions that I've made and how I approach it. Cool, I guess I'll go next. My name is Abel Martin. I am a lead software engineer at Uptoro. We're all hiring like everybody else. And this is actually my third lead developer position. I've had clearly two other ones before this. Influences, influences. At a high level, much like Shea, my influences have also been like very good managers and also very bad managers, like anti-patterns and patterns exist and you pull the parts that matter the most to you. In addition, I would easily say just like my mom's also been an influence on me. She's a single mother raising a child throughout all the years and also my wife is a really big influence on me because we have a two year old and seeing leadership happening in action and having someone that I'm bouncing leadership off of as well and better understandings and collaborations on what we should do about this broccoli situation is something that requires actual thought and leadership and development design in its own way. Thanks. So what is something that you wish someone had taught you or told you or given you the heads up about when it comes to leadership? I'll start. So it's surprising that it took me so long to figure this out but I wish someone had told me sooner that I don't have to be a manager to lead which is ironic because I'm on this panel right now but when people told me that over and over but I didn't actually understand what that meant and it didn't occur to me until I applied to be a manager for the first time that I realized that I was waiting for approval to do the things that I wanted to do and so I'd wish that, I don't know what it would have taken for me to understand that but I wish it would have, I would have realized that sooner. I think someone, it would have been really beneficial someone told me it's okay to fail. I think when I got into leadership and management I set really high expectations for myself and I tried to live up to those and I think I avoided making mistakes but that then in return led to essentially making mistakes and not making the right decisions. I think what defines us as leaders is our ability to kind of respond to that failure not in the ability to completely avoid it. So if someone just came out and like you're going to fail and that's completely all right, go for it. You'll be defined by how you respond to that failure more so than your ability to avoid it altogether. It would have went a long way early on. Yeah, I would say the thing that I wish someone had mentioned to me earlier in my career would be to explicitly figure out how the things that you are individually contributing to actually tie to an explicit bottom line. As an IC I feel like I was very good about executing code and making sure things got done usually within the estimations that I've given out about when things will get done but not always tying it back, bringing it back to the literal value that I'm bringing to the business as I'm accomplishing things. Now as a leader, I actually need to kind of focus more on that and I feel in my current role I've had the opportunity to really dig into that and I now think about other opportunities of leadership that I've had where I could have been that much more effective as a leader if I had a tighter link between the work that my team was doing in explicit bottom line dollar financials. Oftentimes that comes out like as an afterthought and then I was able to help my team move forward but still I feel like driving that out much earlier would have been really great to know. Thanks. So how do you think that, so we've been talking a little bit about like leadership versus management and there's also coaching, mentorship, teaching, all of these things are sort of related. How do you see them as related and also separate? Yeah, sure. It's an interesting thing, right? I think like, I think of mentorship more as an explicit kind of observe as I am doing a thing and you can learn via osmosis which is like cool in its own way but not always the thing that kind of helps you to make the next step. I feel like teaching is literally like more of like a back and forth kind of interaction where the teacher is actively trying to instill certain principles and ideas and then as the student you kind of see those ideas come to life within their actions and deeds. I see management as kind of having high level of visibility on all the things that are going on almost like a new relic-esque whereas like you literally have new relative instruments, all the things that are happening in your application so at a high level you see all the things that are moving correctly, I'm not moving correctly and trying to apply any influence and help where you can but leadership when I think of it in my favorite example is more of a Leonardo and less of a Splinter where you're literally like in the fray with the squad fighting the foot, getting things done and it's how I personally have been a lead in my previous endeavors and it's my favorite way to be a leader. Wow, okay. I'm gonna take some small pieces then since you did such a good job laying the land. I think that especially like for coaching and mentorship, coaching is something that can happen like day by day, like as you're working side by side and mentorship is kind of like this formalization of that coaching that you might do and so you might meet with someone on a regular basis or not and reach out to them and I see that as complimentary, so like related but not management so you can have a mentor that's separate from your manager who can actually help you progress and sponsor you and you can also have your manager and your manager can be a leader, a coach and a teacher and a mentor, did I say mentor? Anyway, it can be all the things and that it really depends on like your situation if you need those different pieces and to get them as you need to go. I think done well, all of them are basically positions of service, not power. There's definitely like granularity there within it. Leadership to me is it's not a position, it's not a job title, it's not a promotion you get. I think anyone could pick that up and go with it. I believe that begins with like taking ownership of a problem and seeking everything you can to get to a favorable solution there within. Management is a little bit different. I think that's at a point to where you begin to have direct reports and your role slightly changes. I hate to hesitate to say like what that is. I think that varies very wildly based off the organization, size of it and the size of your team and the like. Yeah. Thanks. So how do you manage up? And by manage up I mean how do you manage your own manager or others above them? I'll kick it off. I think the biggest thing, not just with your managers above you with your engineers that report to you in life as a whole is really communication and setting expectations and if necessary resetting expectations. I think the biggest thing that everyone wants is like visibility and clarity into the ongoing of things that may be out of their day to day concern but ultimately will affect the bottom line at some point. And effectively if you're able to communicate like correctly and clearly to your manager or any other stakeholder like above your project or any PM, et cetera, you're able to kind of ensure that they are clear about when things will be delivered, if there are delays, if there are roadblocks, if there are dependencies on other teams as long as you are really clear and explicit about these things, you give them the tools that they need because these, this is my first talk, I'm trying not to curse. Fecal matter rolls downhill. So a lot of times if you find yourself in this state where it's like you feel the pressure from like your lead or whatever you say, it's because they are also feeling the pressure coming down on them and they have pressure coming down on them and ultimately there's a board or director somewhere in this equation and then they are pushing all the pressure down on all the things. So if there's clarity all the way up through the stack then no one has a question about what's going on and why there's a problem. So there is no problem because everyone's clear about what's going on. So I'm really excited about this question because as an individual contributor who has a manager like at the bottom of the rung, this is like my forte. So I manage up pretty strongly and the way I do it is I come to every one of our, so I have one-on-ones with my manager every other week. It's a cadence that I chose and I come to every manager meeting with an agenda. So sometimes it's in the form of a post-it or a notebook or something more formal and I have a list of the things that I've done in the last two weeks that I want to inform them on, so progress that I've had on my own goals, where I think that's going, so what future initiatives I have, things I'm curious about, opportunities that I want and questions. So questions and concerns and the questions are kind of like, how does this fit into the big picture? Do I fit into the big picture? Sometimes that's in the form of like, I need reassurance, please tell me I'm amazing and I've become more and more explicit with my manager about needing that and also concerns. So I used to only talk about myself, so this is me, this is what I'm doing, this is what I want, but now I've kind of transitioned over to, these are the things that I'm hearing on the floor and I think this is important for you to know. These are the things that I potentially want you to bring up at a manager meeting when you see it's fit because I care about our culture and I want us to keep our culture intact. So I want this to be a two-way cycle. So managing up for me is being able to be part of this partnership where I'm listening to the ground floor and helping them become better managers and help other managers. So because they can't, as they're busy managing, they can sometimes keep their ear to the ground but I'm much closer to the ground as being on the bottom rung. Okay, well you sound like a dream employee to begin with. If every employee came into like one-on-ones it was like, this is the business, let's do it. It would be amazing. I think that's why you're a leader. I think that's why you'll be a manager in short order. To answer the question though, it's kind of interesting because I think we think about managing up when things are not particularly going well and that's almost too late. That's like the wrong time to actually think about that. When I manage up, I have to manage up directly to a CEO and to a board and I can't like walk in and just try and like control a situation as it's like unfolding. Those are things I have to be ahead of well in advance and for me that's basically building a relationship with those people day in and day out. That's getting to understand how they think, how they want to communicate, how they move about the business and do things and in doing that I really try and understand exactly what their problems are and where they're going and I do everything I can to actually make those problems my own and then seek to say, how can I help you solve those? And the entire thought there is whatever work I can begin to take off their plate and kind of put on my back, the moment I have to turn that table around it becomes a lot easier. The moment something I need to push back or I have to kind of manage up and I have to ask them to do that or kind of slide in onto their camp a little bit, I think they're far more willing to lean into my side of the table and say, that's okay, I can take that. I'll accept like the pushback based off the fact that I've taken things from them historically and that is something you have to be proactive about. You have to get ahead of that so that when it comes time to actually manage up it's one of, you've already earned their good grace to say, okay, fair enough, we'll go in another direction or we'll do something slightly different. I would also add onto that, part of managing up I think also changes your vocabulary where suddenly there's this personification object called the business where it's like, yeah, for the business we actually need to focus on blah, blah, blah, blah. Or like, well, the business prioritizes this and we can change our focus and deal with that correctly. And I remember being, and I see feeling like, I hate when people say the business. You mean Joe, right? You mean Sarah, right? Who's the business? But the reality is being able to kind of abstract it out a little bit, A, doesn't put it directly on someone's face even though you know who it is. You still have to pull this back a bit so people can kind of think of it more objectively and have that conversation, but that does help when you are managing up because you have to start speaking in that way with people who are kind of further up the branch of the oratory that you are part of. I also wanted to add that, especially with a brand new manager that you have, some part of managing up is trying to figure out a way to build trust with them. So for me, that's a little bit hard because I just take a while to build trust and so as an engineer, I've built a process and that process is to find things like small tasks, right? So it's like, I need help with this and see how they react and kind of increase that scope and increase that trust over time. So managing up means I'm willing to put in this work and I have an idea, let's work on that idea together specifically on building trust so that when something bigger comes down the line that we're gonna be okay and I'm going to understand how you're communicating and why you're communicating and know that it comes from a good place because I know inherently that it always does but I need to understand how that fits into their actions and their reactions. Great, building relationships, trust, I like it. I wanna open it up to some questions if there are any. If not, I can keep asking questions. I have a whole list of them. Okay, so seems like two questions. One, as a manager, how do you recognize talent, particularly if people are coming from non-traditional backgrounds? And two, how do you advocate for yourself if you're in that position? I have a clarifying question, sorry. When you say recognized talent, like as in, how do you recognize that in someone else or how do you basically give them praise for that? First one, okay. I don't know that I have a great answer. It's a bad answer. I think I recognize it by just getting close to that person and working alongside them and having one-on-ones at some regular cadence and really beginning to understand how they think, what they're feeling and get a real pulse of the work they're doing. And I think whether or not they're doing good or bad is relative to that person too, right? So their output might not be that of another engineers on the team but that doesn't mean that they're not actually doing a good job either, right? So I think it's building up that actual level of compassion to understand that. What was the second question? How do you? Advocate for yourself. How do you advocate for yourself? Ooh. That's all I want to say. Okay, okay. So for me personally, so I came from a world that was not in software and I came from the consulting world. So I was an energy consulting and then I switched over to software. And so for me personally, I feel that strongly because I went through consulting and I built this interest in thought leadership. I built this interest in like how to develop a relationship with a client and dealing with tougher conversations and like communication issues. So the question is like, how do I as an individual contributor start to talk about, to my manager, about like where I am, where they see I am and where I'm going, like, and how close am I to the next level? So a few weeks ago I sat down with my manager and I was like, I want to talk about our skills matrix. And so we sat down in front of my skills matrix and I made that my manager do homework and I made them put a number for each of our categories. So we have categories, you have a matrix, you rate yourself from two to five for like different areas and sub pieces. And so I said, I want you to figure out like where you think I am. And then we're gonna go side by side and we're gonna place me in each of the little boxes. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because now we're talking about the same thing again, we're having the same vernacular. And I can start to point out and say, I see this future piece and I think A, either I'd be really good at that or B, I'm already doing it. And I can explain to you why because we're pointing on the skills matrix and that's the thing that's gonna get me promoted. So kind of talking about something much more granular. And like personally I've had a lot of anxiety around like does my manager think I'm amazing? Like I don't know, do they actually recognize the things that I'm doing? Are my one-on-ones where I'm strongly managing upward? Actually like getting through to them and are they writing those stuff down? I can find out from the skills matrix. So being recognized is a lot easier when you're talking about something that the business, the business actually values and building the conversation from there. So sometimes I'll see a skill that I have that's not there and I'll ask why or ask if it can be on there. And if not like how is that skill ever going to be captured or is this something that I may have but may not necessarily like fit into the business? No, go ahead. So fundamentally as a manager one of the things that I try to do is think about what skills are important to the team and that has to include things that aren't coding. And if you can start that conversation and sometimes you can start that conversation with your manager but sometimes you can start it with your team about what's important to the team. It can come up in retros and things like that. You can like gorilla style it which is my preferred way of creating change in organizations but being clear that communication are you in front of clients? Do you deal with other departments? What are the ways that your skills and what you're contributing are valuable and make things more successful and then tying it back to the business whether that's quantifying it in terms of money or quantifying it in terms of like the successful number of projects that have gotten done, et cetera is one of the best ways. The other thing is to like ask for feedback from your manager and one of the things that because most people aren't very good at giving positive feedback, ask them what they think you're doing well if they don't tell you. Usually like do you have any feedback from me and it's like oh well you're not doing anything badly so I'm not gonna say anything but you're probably doing something well and so sometimes it's just pushing them to do that and you're sort of training them in some ways. Neha is training her managers to have certain kinds of conversations and in general that's a really positive thing. Yeah, I just add on to all the things. I feel like we're all kind of subscribed in some varying degrees and levels to agile kind of framework and agile kind of development practices and one of the really important things about that is like at the end of the sprint or end of a track of work having the ability of demoing and sometimes that demo is valuable because you demo to external stakeholders they can literally see that oh you know so and so did this portion of our demo today and like that took the following bits of complexity to understand and implement correctly and what have you but it doesn't need to be the finished product on demo day it can still be like the wad of cookie dough that's still in the oven. It's not completed yet but like a lot of work still went into it like by the time the sprint is over it's not like there was one person who was just chilling all day playing Game Boy, right? Like there are people who are working constantly throughout a sprint so there's always something that can be shown even if the thing to be shown was the result of research that a person did that's still insanely valuable because it's still adding on to the value of your team and adding on to the overall value of the company aka the business. Yes, we're gonna get to that at the very end. Thank you for asking about resources. I promise. Orange shirt, I don't wanna miss that site. Sure, I'm pretty sure everybody manages up whether they realize it or not. Sometimes it goes better than others. I think that one of the hardest things about being a manager for me was realizing that like how I liked to manage or be managed was irrelevant and so learning to adjust and recognize the way other people wanna be managed is like probably the hardest part because you're basically adapting your style to them and that's what's most effective but it's also the most difficult and so sometimes when people manage up Neha for example, we work together with RightSpeak Code and she started like sending me these messages that were like number one, here is this question. Number two, here is this question and I was like this is amazing, please keep continuing doing this and here is my answers with numbers but so that was also like very clear that like that's how she wanted to be worked with and communicated with. I think the harder part is when people aren't proactive and don't manage up and you have to suss out their sort of style yourself. I would say you have someone's managing up but I'm probably pretty happy about that. Ideally they're taking work off my plate but at the same time too, I'm a pretty core fundamental believer that I will change my process any given day of the week so long as it works with the actual team or the people involved. I think process is far easier to change than people so 100% of the time, however, someone wants to work is the way I'm going to work with them. I'm not gonna try and get them to conform into my way of working and if someone's trying to actually manage up or manage me in that scenario, I am happy to do that and work with them in their own process and how they want to do that. That honestly is probably preferred. That's a great question, it's a lot of emotional work. Management is a lot of emotional work. So I think that the hardest part of someone dealing with someone who's struggling is that you feel bad for them and that often what happens is you're feeling bad gets in the way of you trying to deal with a situation and you have to balance being this like somewhat objective person who has a job to do and has a box while also being compassionate and so it's always a struggle and I think one of the things that's been really effective when it goes back to resources at DevMind we have a leadership coach and he kind of like gave us a framework for when people are struggling that like our job as the company and leaders is to set clear expectations, define success criteria, give people a timeframe and give people the resources to be successful and that was really helpful for me because I like lists obviously and so being able to like step back and think about the things in that way and like what I expected from someone and I think the key part that we often forget in that is giving people a timeframe that's reasonable and sort of close enough to assess and then the resources as in like checking in and making sure things are happening on like a regular basis so that's how I've handled it is to give myself systems for when these things happen but it's always a struggle. Yeah, I mean definitely loudly and in company-wide emails is how I, no. I think one of the big things when someone is struggling is to try and help them out by giving them kind of explicit things that can help pull them out of whatever they're in because sometimes what they're in is like a legitimate problem where they're just not coming forward with some of the complexities they're finding and some of the times the thing that they're in is that the task at hand is perhaps like a little bit like heavier than they anticipated lifting which is totally fine, it happens to all of us. This steak looks delicious, you try and take a big bite and you joke but you have to be able to like kind of as a leader kind of see in the various touchpoints that you have with this person like if you're noticing like these really terse stand-up messages that are happening every day and you're not really seeing like this other end of that which would be like kind of completion of stories or at least some detail on the work that's moving forward these are kind of like the small signs that things aren't really flowing the way that not only you as a leader want them to flow but also as the individual wants them to flow because certainly everyone wants to get a story on Monday banging out on Monday night and then by Tuesday stand-up it's like oh yeah that's done, it's in PR request but like you don't always have that opportunity to do that so just trying to like really listen and pay attention to the cues is like the biggest thing for me to do and it's also something that doesn't just happen with one engineer but it's like everyone's cues that are giving out, yeah. I got two things, I would say and not specific to people that are emotional either any of like your employees should know but like how much you actually care about them and to the degree to which they are far more important than the actual organization because the organization doesn't exist without them and ensuring that they know it and it's not like this apathetic like I like you because I need you to do your job and that looks well for me like to the point of like you care so much about them that like if it meant like referring them to go work elsewhere you would do that because you knew that was more aligned to their goals and what they wanted to do long term like sincerely making sure that they feel valued and that like their best interest is what you want for them, right? And you can't do that on the spot when it's emotional that's something you do every day, day in and day out and you build that. When it gets to a point to where something is emotional or you know you're gonna have to have a hard conversation you have to prepare, you have to have that written down and very well documented outline and when you walk into those conversations you have to be incredibly clear, right? Leave no room for ambiguity. If they start asking you questions and you don't have answers and they, you know your answers are like yeah, okay, like it kinda, they are basically trying to like fill voids in their head and interpret what you're saying and that is like a dangerous place for them to go. So it's one of what you have to be incredibly clear with certainly like you know what you're kind of trying to communicate be it an issue or thing you need done or what have you but the clarity around that communication is really important. Okay, we don't have a lot of time left. Does someone have a shortish question? At what point should leaders who are managers or mentors stop coding? You're just trying to plug your own blog post. I think that this is really difficult because I think that it's really hard to code and be in a project when you're also managing people but I also think there's like that line where you're managing the like the dev lead so you're managing but you're like on the project and even that is like a difficult balance but I think as soon as you get out of like not specifically being on a project and only managing a project and those people like you can't code basically. I mean, you know you can on the side and keep yourself fresh and pairing and stuff but basically it can't be an expectation that it's part of your job. Yeah, at a certain level like the complexity of being a lead is so high that there isn't enough time for you also to individually contribute and move projects forward at like a reasonable clip. Reasonably as a lead I found myself and find myself today and probably for a while. In more meetings and I have contiguous blocks of time to just relax, sit down, focus and write code like as efficiently as I like to and you'll just over time you'll just start to see that more and more as more and more members of again the humans and the oratory that are above you or various other stakeholders require more of your input and thoughts on to the best ways of executing in a project. It's something that kind of will start to happen to you as a lead and I guess it just kind of happens kind of when you really recognize the fact that you trying to be an individual contributor is actually slowing your team down. It's like an obvious point but ideally you're starting to kind of pull yourself back as much as you possibly can before you get to that point but yeah it's a hard thing. Like honestly like I explicitly struggled with that and like in that job interview question of like what's your weakness? I'll tell you right now like I want to be a Leonardo. Like I want to fight the foot. Like I want to be with my crew but it's not always the best thing and yeah you have to just kind of get yourself into that space to recognize that and pull yourself back. So I work at Pivotal Labs and we do agile XP so it's like a very different model. The way it works right now so I'm gonna explain the way it works really quickly and then say how I feel about it. So the way it works is that managers we're at Pivotal Labs they are, they have like a certain number of hours where they do spend time managing and there is a certain number of hours where they do spend time coding and we work with clients, we work side by side sometimes just exclusively with Pivot, sometimes with clients and the expectation is that with a manager on the team that you will have less velocity or like less productivity in theory because they're not as available as before. I think that there is like probably some potential for some granularity in this model where it's like not necessarily like coding 30 hours a week or 35 hours a week and managing five hours but that's something that like I know we're actively trying to iterate on. It's difficult when like you have a manager who's like in and out of different things but one of the nice things about being an agile XP is that there's like no bus, like anyone can pick up the next story and they have no context or like and then at least one other person has context and there's an intention behind sharing that context knowing that the manager won't be around. So it's very much of a different model that's like kind of working and like I see some gaps in it and like we definitely are in active conversations on iterating on that because at some point it just gets harder and harder and then if you go beyond that level and you stop coding altogether. I'm just saying to short sooner rather than later honestly and that's a hard thing to do because you're like that's what you're good at. That's what you're gonna wanna default back to but the danger involved in that and just the ripple effects it could have across the team and that you start doing something you get pulled away from it and they're left hanging with it. It's a dangerous place to be. So I think it takes a great amount of self awareness and kind of emotional intelligence to know that but in short the answer is sooner rather than later. Great, so we only have a few minutes left so I wanna get back to the resources question. So what are some of your favorite resources or the best resources, training, books, blogs, people other than the ones you've already mentioned for leadership? All right, I'll go first because I'm holding this, sorry. I like to read a ton abnormal amount but I'll preface my answer and I'll tell you some of my favorite books but I'll preface my answer but it's also saying that of like if I read a bunch of cookbooks I wouldn't be able to cook or shit. So it's more so that like the practice of it makes a ton of difference. So I would say like favorite books, it's weird. I love most of Patrick Lanchoni's books. Five dysfunctions of a team is like probably my all time favorite. I buy it for every single person on my team. There is a leadership and self deceptions, a great book. The hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz is a great book. Andy Grove, great book. Who am I missing? Peter Drucker is great. Dale Carnegie is great. We'll tweet these. Yeah, I don't know, there's a lot. I built an app too, that's like one of my favorite resources, shameless plug called Lead Honestly. That really helps me a lot, like selfishly but it sincerely does. For me personally, I do a lot of my learning by talking to other people. So I look, I actively look for mentors in the company, people who are not necessarily in my line of work so people who could potentially influence me, sponsor me from the outside. And I read a lot of like smaller snippets of like blog posts and I find ways at lunch and like during my breaks to talk to other people about it. So I personally just happen to learn a lot by talking out loud and sharing that information and like processing it that way. So I know that I just take advantage of that and that means talking to people like my managers or I'm talking to other managers, talking to their managers, so skip levels. And like I'm currently reading first break all the rules. So that was actually ironically gifted to me. So one great thing as a manager is like if you see potential in someone, you don't have to sponsor them and like be by their side for the rest of like their entire career, right? You can do a small thing as like giving them a book. And when that happened to me, I was like, oh, someone believes in me. So that's why I'm reading the book. Pardon? Definitely good road work, yeah. In a similar way, I also have, I'm fortunate enough to have a lot of friends who are also in lead positions. And that definitely helps to have that network around. But I feel that at a high level, just being able to be plugged into a general community, if you're in part of like your local like meetup groups around Rails, around Ruby, around polyglot programming, being able to pull kind of thoughts and ideas from other people in your general community, that really helps because you can kind of be a little like pull like in a more abstract version of a real scenario you're dealing with. And if you have like a great relationship with someone, then you can be a little more specific about it if necessary. But I definitely like the personal touch, like what Neha was saying. I'm gonna add one thing like 30 seconds, like 10 seconds, I promised. As an organizer of a meetup, I often just like create the themes around the things that I want to talk or learn about. So I'll like host speakers or like, I'm doing one of them on microaggression so that I can learn more about that and understand everyone's perspective and how to deal with my own. So sometimes you can create the solution or like create the conversations that you want to have. I'm gonna throw three books out there. One is Behind Closed Doors, which is a pragmatic program programmers book on engineering management. And frankly is the best engineering management specific book I've ever read. It's very tactical, the thin book of trust and anything by Brene Brown, who I'm totally obsessed with and talks about vulnerability. Her last book, Rising Strong, has some great stuff about building trust. So thank you for coming. Thanks for closing out the leadership track, Strong. Yeah, thanks so much, y'all.