 Welcome everybody back here to Segal Talks at the Martini Segal Theater Center from the Graduate Center CUNY Midtown Manhattan and it's again a sunny warm day here in New York City and the the the wind of change in a way of warm wind is coming through the city looks so different. Still we see very little of tourists, but the mood on the street seems to be so much better than when we started last March on the entire summer so we have a feeling that perhaps the worst is behind us. What we have talked about in this entire year is not only how do we experiencing it, what needs to change, what will happen after the time of corona, actually at least to our impression this time is starting now. In some parts of the world it is not it's very complicated Latin American countries, Chile and many others Brazil Argentina, but especially India is hit so hard and but we and then in Western Europe it seems like the tides are turning what really will happen we don't know we cannot seal the borders even if everybody would be vaccinated in the US that would mean nobody would be allowed to come in the extreme Catholic or religious right refuses vaccinations of many Republicans refused and so what will happen if the Indian variant that seems to be so much stronger 60 to 80% some studies and change what will really happen especially to young people who haven't been vaccinated because they have to wait in line. We do not know and what does it mean for theater for openings. Still, a complex time we are coming to an end of the seagull talks on the time of corona this is our last week that's why it's important to have our two guests here with us Brian and Alec. We think it is now also time to take action to be part of the change this is what we all talked about here as a very end of our seagull talks we will do a 24 hour marathon online to support our colleagues in India who are up all night collecting and connect collecting resources and connecting people often from rural areas who only have phones to and no internet to hospitals the few that are still working with the doctors or nurses haven't died and where some oxygen left in the walls with enough pressure to really get pumped into the bodies it's a disastrous apocalyptic moment there. And what our colleagues have done is heroic and but so many people around the world have done that in all the both also the two who are here with us so I would like to welcome our two great guests Brian Rogers from the chocolate factory Alec Duffy from the Jack art space and anyone who lives in New York follows participates or loves theater contemporary theater avant garde the step ahead where what of an experiment is really means an experiment where can go right can go wrong like in science like in research what we do at universities. Those two guys have been leaders they have created spaces. And they run them they have a vision and a very difficult and complex circumstance they have been able to keep them alive it's not easy in New York, and the Americas, it's much more complicated than in Europe we have our highest respect and like the invisible dog that we see on with us. These spaces run because of the people will run them like the Ellen Stuart theater at the great of La Mama. And so these are heroes in a way of our scene, they have been connected to our prelude festivals, but also to the very very fabric and so many artists have worked through. Both institutions are going through tremendous changes on their own. But now in the time of corona the time of black lives matter they of course are magnified and the choices they make are so important because they represent the spirit of the New York theater community of theater artists, moral, ethical, social and artistic is aesthetic value so it's a great great great honor to have those of them with us Brian and I like welcome and where are you guys. I like maybe you start. Oh Brian yeah go ahead. Sorry I like. I'm sitting inside the the future chocolate factory theater space in Long Island City Queens. My goodness no one has seen that yet so you're living in the future you're in the future at the moment. Can you show us a little bit is that a possibility. This is, this is not the part of the building where artists will work. This is sort of backstage and quite a mess. We've literally just completed moving all of our stuff from the old space into the new space we had a chance to sort of really unpack and within just yet but we've managed to lug all of our stuff, at least. So you did it over the weekend or incredible at speaking of change. I like where are you. I'm in Catskill New York, and my wife Mimi is a set designer. Yes, she's actually part of a dance residency here a bubble. I'm up watching the kids while she's in there although she's got them right now. That's where I am beautiful Catskill. Yeah, and great the great me meal. Yes, and she designed the child's behind you. It was already there, I guess, but it looks very very good. I said before both of you look like captains in spaceships. Let me tell our audiences who do not know so much about you we have not only listeners from North and Latin America but also from around the world, and not everybody is so familiar. These are the places that make New York New York theaters that create work but also host artists create commission new work. And instead of being a touring place instead of you know, creating commercial productions with the hope to have a return of the money. These are two. They make us in the sense of a mission and a vision to have a social impact artistic impact to give meaning to our lives to also give a space for artists as a symbolic a real and imaginary space into discuss ideas, you know that the society needs to look at it. So these are the most valuable spaces like here at center also send in to the way so many many others I'm sure I'm forgetting the National Black Theater and so many many other places who do this PS, and, but both of them are now here with us so Alec is the founder and co director of the OB winning Brooklyn performance and civic space is a great thing he calls it a civic space Jack was the mission of fueling experiments in arts and activism so arts and activism are the key words here together with former Jack co director, the diara right he conceived reparations 365 a series that examines the topic of distributive justice for black Americans, the performances conversations and workshops. Prior to founding a jack he had a life that is of course closely connected but he had the theater company. Hi, polite as a many New Yorkers know and remember so well, with whom he has created many original works including the well was that one day OB, and it's based on Schubert's winterizer song cycle, and it was co written and performed with David Malloy of the great comet and and Rick book art so he has a credential we all are of course jealous and everybody of us would like to have such a record to say I created a space I make a social artistic contribution and I want an own OB for my artistic work. Brian is a director filmmaker video and sound artists, and he is that truly creates work pieces is one of a few also like Alex who direct create artistic work but also our administrators define a new professional type of hybrid form that has been a long time and with theater but they also run this in New York City and this is a quite a complex undertaking. He created the chocolate factor which supports the creation of theater, dance music and multimedia performances. It's very important I think his affinity to the new technologies who seem already like old now some of them, but he started out they were new, and he continues that was the really new emerging technology. And he has now a 5,000 square foot facility in Long Island City in Queens, very close to Manhattan easy to get to all the spaces also the jack spaces so people who are visiting New York or I mean happen about this just try to get out there these are important great places fun to travel to and you see different neighborhoods. Since 1997 Brian has conceived and directed numerous large scale films and performances at the shop that factory, and elsewhere including screamers which was at Abrams Art Center the Baryshnikov Art Center Art Box fiat's crossing the line festival the great coil festival by Leo Gunn created and pack center and the besty nominated selective memory so both of them are what we call real nest street credit is impactful they have been friends of the Seedle Center and they are also connected to our credit festival we really follow their work we admire them and they have given space to artists and encourage them to create new work which is so rare, and it's invaluable so just a tiny bit from Brian but maybe Alex now from you where are you what's going on we all wonder what's going on at Jack what happened already a miracle that you could pay the high rents in the time when there were people that would make donations you were in the trenches to make that happen. They were enormously high. But now what happened in Corona to to Jack our space. So it was a few months I guess after the pandemic hit. It became clear to us that our landlord was not going to offer us rent relief. I had lobbied for a couple months and finally, after saying no so many times. It was clear that the landlord was not going to budge. How long were you in there. How long were you in there. We had actually moved to a new space just opened at six months prior. So we had been in our original space for seven years, and then I moved to this new space built it out and then had just opened it. So it was a relatively new relationship with the landlord. And it was at that time that that finally was it became clear that he was not going to budge that it became very dire for us. And how high was the rent if we may ask for a small profit makes about $7,000 a month. It's close to $100,000 a year just to raise to have the water on and to have a space. Right. And so that's when it be and at the around that time it became clear that the pandemic was going to last much longer than we originally thought or the shutdown would. And that's when it became pretty dire for us a perilous situation. It was around June and July though that you know we put out a call to our supporters and really laid it out on the line that we were not going to survive this. This this shutdown without their support. And so a lot of them pulled through. We got some special special help from what the NEA had a relief grant that we were able to get your community trusted. And the Howard Gilman Foundation was especially generous to its grantees during that time. And so it was about late August late August that we knew that we were actually going to be okay. Because the pandemic didn't last for five years. Or, you know, at least, you know, that it would be done in the next year, or the shutdown would be be lifted in the next year that we would be okay. And so that's, that's when around the same time actually, we were we had this empty space right and and we were trying to find a way to put it to use in a very in during the critical emergency time where New York was losing 900 residents a day. And so we reached out to the city offered our space for testing for emergency treatments whatnot. We didn't get anywhere with that. But one of our board members is an activist, and she's actually a member of a mutual aid group who had just lost their space this was actually in April. And so we were able to get our space in Bushwick. And we quickly came to a realization that that would be a great way to use our space would be to give it over to this mutual aid group as a food distribution hub. And so that's what we did and so for them the remainder basically of the year. Jack was a food distribution hub with over and with dozens of volunteers working every week, delivering food to about 200 families per week that lived in public housing nearby. And that's basically how we spent 2020, 2020, when the year turned over into 2021 that project closed closed shop, and then we started offering our space to artists for residencies and so we have had now seven artists residencies of two weeks each, and are starting to have a parallel set of residencies out on Governors Island courtesy of beam center, which isn't is a group that's working out of Governors Island. So that's what that's the crime focus of our work over the past year has been that split of them of the food distribution, and then these artists residencies. So to put it together, you just moved into a new space, quickly found out it was impossible to to maintain it at one moment looked like you had to move out your relics support so you had to do a lot of fundraising. Then it became a social kind of network support for the neighborhood, and then you started slowly residencies so Brian how how was the year for you. I mean I would echo a lot of what Alex said the early months of it. We're quite terrifying I mean outside of the, you know the state of the world at that time. And, and those terrors. It was really unclear to us how he wouldn't how he would make it through. I mean the short term, you know, the timing of all of it was such that we had, we were forced to cancel. We were forced to cancel our half of our season. And so we had a quite significant cash outlay to artists we felt it was important just to honor our monetary commitments to those artists who are relying on that in some cases just to survive. And we were forced to cancel our annual Gala which, you know, in a good year would net us $100,000 and so that that money didn't come in. And we were also in a very strange moment. So we were, we're in this moment we're in this period of sort of slow rolling transition you know where you where you're where you're seeing me now is a building, a 7500 square foot building that we own that the city of New York helped us to purchase. So we had to go and we've been, we've been sort of planning to renovate this building, and then have a sort of smooth transition from the current rented space into this space. And one of the results of the pandemic is that we had completed the planning process for this renovation but the actual working with the city to unlock its financial commitments to our renovation got completely stalled and went nowhere now for a year and a half. And at that and simultaneous to that, our lease on our current rented space ended. And we were able to negotiate with our landlord, a modest rent reduction but he also did not agree to renew our lease so we went on to a month to month rent relationship. We weren't really able to do much with the space. So we were paying rent month to month not knowing if we would be able to stay there and not making a whole lot of use of it. And so we sort of gradually came to the conclusion that it just made sense for us to move into this building that we own this anyway. And so we we embarked on a very low budget DIY fix up a bit just to make it safe to occupy. And it was a decision to move so we will be fully in here as of July 1, but to Alex point, we really survived due to the generosity of some private funders. The Gilman Foundation in particular in the New York Community Trust, all of these various emergency grants and the funders who just, you know, augmented their, their, their annual general operating support is what it helped us to, and the PPP loan that is we survived through this, honestly. And then there's also just the, the logistical problem and the trauma that all of the artists have experienced all those works that were canceled and couldn't happen that we now need to figure out if we can find money to pay them a second time to actually make these commitments and show them combined with the commitments that I've, and I don't know sort of what timeline you I mean I think it's, I think situation is probably not that different Alec but we make commitments to artists often quite far in advance. And so each postponement or cancellation is just sort of a augments that makes the problem larger because you know I've made commitments to artists through at this point through 2024. And so if I'm pushing something back, everything's being pushed back, and how to, and as an organization on a, on a, you know, we're still a quite small organization to the money piece of this is just an incredible challenge and how to navigate all of all of that and support all of these works that I had promised to support is an interesting problem to solve that I haven't actually figured out how to solve but I survived, so I really to, on that level like, I can't complain but those early months were, were quite intense for me, just seeing all of this kind of disappear and wondering how we were going to navigate it. And it really is to do to the generosity of the field I guess on a certain level that enabled us to continue. It was existential for both of you. Yeah, for me at least, absolutely. How did you both feel as, as, you know, as Brian as Alec as person how did you go through this. I'll start. So we have toddler twins, and a lot of the focus was just on being able to take care of them. They have been in daycare before then but then you know that shut down. And so Mimi and my hands were really full with them for that first year basically of the shutdown. So it's even hard to just be able to grab a couple of hours for work during the day. That was exhausting and the father just leave it just just this was not how it was supposed to be right and the way that you think about it or in terms of what, how, how to handle how to balance your career you work, and the raising of your children. I think it was that was the probably the toughest part. Thankfully, no one in my close circle was got really sick. I had some some friends who were sick with COVID but but recovered pretty swiftly. So that was the now that was the main struggle for me. There's just how to keep it together. Yeah, I second what, what Alex said, it was just for me the struggle of. I mean, like the pattern of my life pre pandemic was so oriented around travel and watching performances. And, you know, those things all abruptly went away. And so for me it was just, and I'm still just coming out of it I think in a way just struggling to find a way to do something useful with this platform that I have the same. I mean, and not me so trying to make sure that trying to keep my organization alive and do something useful for the community that I'm attached to. We did find some ways to support artists work with with residencies but that was incredibly stressful because the conditions under which that could happen were unknown for a long time and then constantly changing and quite logistically challenging. I do some of those things, but I think I just felt quite disassociated from my own utility as a as an arts worker in this context because it's so hard it was so hard for me to understand what I could do that would be helpful or of use to the field or some value to the world. And so yeah it just kind of, I think I spent months just feeling as if I was watching a movie of my own life sort of move past. And it's been, it's been quite interesting to sort of emerge out of it in with the speed at which it seems to be happening you know I did. It felt like we were sort of parked in the station and then all of a sudden in May. You know, they put on the gas like we're open again we can do this and sort of jumping back and trying to then navigate with artists the their own existential crises that they've experienced and this notion that we should now return to a world of making and showing work. And I think there's, and I may forgive me if I'm going on too long but I think one of the really the challenges of this moment, or opportunities of this moment is that I think we as a community were able to recognize during this last year that there are structural things about how we work that we're not serving us and really need to change. And now that we're, I think on a kind of fast moving train toward reopening. I think there's a, there's a fear that we're just going to rush back to the way things went before. And speaking for myself. I think that I need to, to work differently. My organization and me personally needs to work differently. In the next phase of this. So for you, Alex, are things going to change from a from a jack level. It's actually, it's actually give this whole shutdown has given us a lot of opportunity to reflect and to envision and to plan in a way that we Jordanna, our co director and I had not had in the run up to the pandemic we had just opened a new space we're still getting to know the pandemic at audiences coming through every week. So to even have a moment to reflect was a was a miracle during that time. During the shutdown, we actually had a conveniently had a strategic planning process, a planned. And so we actually had a lot of space to reflect upon where we wanted Jack to go, how we were going to get there. Also, being able to listen, listen, there's so many opportunities like your series here to listen to people talk about what they want in in the new American theater, or the new American performance scene. And that was extremely helpful for Jordanna and I to just be taking this all in while we were creating our plan for the coming years. Very specifically for us that that was reflected in a plan where we're looking to, for example, double artists fees by next year. We're looking to now give artists more time in our space than we had previously given them so a week longer in our space to prepare a production than we have before. We are looking to for Jack to reflect an even more diverse city than it currently does. And so we have been, we've been Jordan and I have been really had an opportunity to check out work that we, we kind of didn't have before the pandemic because we were so focused on our own space. So whether that's watching videos of artists work, meeting with them over zoom, getting to know them now showing them our space, you know, inviting them into our space to have conversations about work in the future. We've been thinking about accessibility, really inspired by people at other theaters talking about what radical accessibility could look like where someone who's disabled doesn't have to choose a specific doesn't have to fit into whatever the accessible performances but just can expect it when they go to your theater that there's going to be ASL interpretation that there's going to be open captioning that there's going to be audio description available that is a that is a vision for us it's not currently reality won't be reality this year, but it's it's there's been an opportunity to say that's what we want. And to also be be looking at other organizations and seeing what they've been doing and being inspired by them. You know I can think of Abram Abrams Art Center and their kinsdillatory fires that they're having outside during the pandemic led by Emily Johnson and other Native American artists, really inspired by that, that connection between indigenous artists and arts presenters and we're looking to to to we've already started those conversations so that we can start doing that in the future. So for us it's been a real a time of awakening, a time of really taking a deep breath, seeing what we want to be. And trying to step into that as intentionally as possible over the next couple of years specifically in terms of performance. Yes, we had, we had planned to open in September for performances for live performances but have now moved that forward to the end of July so we're going to actually open our space for the for paid performances for the first time at the end of this year. Yeah, this year with the trumpeter Peter Evans, who's going to be leading leading his ensemble being and becoming for three nights. That'll be our first info capacity, which for us is about 60 seats or an intimate venue. So that'll be our that'll be our first step into public performance again. What, what, what do you think what was wrong before what has to change and what could really change. And I think it mirrors the conditions of other fields just the way in which labor is valued the way the, the contractual or just the power dynamics in relationships between independent artists and presenting institutions, the power dynamics between performers and directors and choreographers. I mentioned briefly before this zoom began I was part of a group, a small part of a large group, the Emily Johnson was one of the sort of chief organizers of in the beginning called creating new futures that came up in response to the sort of generally terrible response of some large institutions to its artist commitments for the early in the early days of the pandemic. And really drawing a lot of attention to the way in which this field operates and the, the, you know, the culture of scarcity and the way in which this work is often made on the backs of young artists to do this work for little or no money some often. And, you know, I think there are organizations like mine and Jack and several others that have, you know, are doing, I think really sincere honest work to to improve those conditions because as artists we understand them. I don't mean to speak for you Alec but I know that you do understand these things very well. But on a larger like if you look at the larger field if there is such a thing. There's a lot that I think. And also just you know the cook, we all worked, we work too hard and we don't sort of have this idea of work by balance is difficult for a lot of people to manage. And so those things really just this idea of why we were how we're doing this work and why we're doing it. We need. We don't need to do things in the way that we've done them necessarily I think often we just do them because that's how we have done them. And we haven't had an Alex point we haven't been given an opportunity to stop and reflect and we haven't I mean running a small, not for a public arts organization does not afford a lot of time for reflection we're just like constantly scrambling to, to make the rent and make the payroll and honor our commitments to artists those things are just perpetual challenges they never they never let up. If that answers your question. I pass by what's called I think the Dillers Island. You know, little island. It was supposed to be free in the evening you could at least go I couldn't even get in there was a cold it was over on it didn't work over on to me. So this is a billionaire who instead of paying taxes sink 600 million or 800 I don't know how much you know for a pleasure island. Instead of, you know, supporting organizations like you who even have to raise the rent you know with paying the $7,000 rent is life and death. How, how do you feel about this, I mean, I know you got help on this organization but how do you feel about the city of New York, how do you feel about making art how. How is the atmosphere for you guys. What do you think of, you know, big place like Lincoln Center being closed but being fully paid but not doing the work Alex said or you that they famously they've met opera hasn't paid singers, you know, since March. Some theaters we hear even ask commission money back from playwrights who had started working, you know, because we're not going to do the play so so how do you what goes through your mind in all of this. Like you're like you're lucky I was like you started. Oh yeah. It's kind of, I don't know I've learned to just. It's it's it's sorry it's a little bit tricky. I've learned to kind of ignore that world, the world of wealth and the world of arts organizations that cater to those who are wealthy it's just not it's not a not a world that I'm particularly interested in the art that's created there is not art that I find very alive. And so, I have no problem anymore I used to get pretty feisty about it but at this point you know it's just, it's kind of none of my business, wealthy people are going to wealth. And so what I what I guess what I guess I am sad about is that, you know, over the past 10 years in New York City, over 80 small venues have closed. Right, and that has had has an enormous effect on our theater, theatrical in infrastructure ecosystem. Artists no longer have these these small places where they can experience not there aren't enough of them to fill the demand from artists of places to experiment to try stuff out to develop your voice to develop your audience. There are now just a few of us. There are venues that that support emerging experimental early career artists. And that just changes the city. Right, it just, it's a confluence of that and also of course the rents have gone up for for renters in the city, enough so that we know that a lot of artists have left over the past 1020 years. So it is not the place that I landed 20 years ago. It doesn't have the same energy. When you were going to theater from theater on the Lower East side from from small theater to small theater to small theater to see new work, or in Soho or downtown Manhattan that even though Brooklyn is, you know, it has a lot of cultural things happening it doesn't have that. It doesn't have 20 small theaters that you can kind of hop hop to to check out work like it like lower Manhattan used to. And so that development is really sad. And at the same time, the work that's being created I'd like to think of New York as a place where in Lisa during my tenure in New York my 20 years here. The art world was a place of ice, when I came, and it's turned to a place of fire. The work when I first arrived in New York the work that was getting attention that was exciting to me as well was quite cold in its aesthetic, a quite cold in its approach removed. Not a, not a lot of passion, but a lot of cool technicality and ideas and concepts, which excited me, certainly as an artist. And now I feel like it's a time of fire. I feel like the art that I'm seeing as a presenter that I'm excited about is art that has a lot to say that is addressing the fact that this city is not the city that we want to be living in the city that this society is not the city that we all the we all feel welcome in. And, and incorporate that in still very creative and imaginative ways into compelling performance. So I'm thinking of playwrights such as Jackie simply is dreary Brandon Jacobs Jenkins. Jeremy or Harris. Taylor Mac. You know, any number of a lot of dance or Diana Oh, just a lot of artists that are that are making stuff that just feels very different than that than the theater and the performance that I was checking out 20 years ago. It also feels exciting. I don't want to paint a picture of New York a decline in the arts scene. There's a decline in the structure of the arts in New York City I feel like, due to the unaffordability of New York right now for a lot of people, but yet artists will prevail. They're creating work that is relevant that is that is inspiring. That is exciting. And so it remains a place where one can really steep oneself in in great artists in great artistry. Yeah, I totally agree with what Alex is saying, I think artists will always find a way. I'm also quite nostalgic for my version, the version of New York that I felt was available to me when I came here, you know, in the mid 90s. I just have these memories of level of street and then, you know, on the single block being there are, you know, for performance venues, the first place that I saw elevator repair service perform the first place I saw target margin theater perform a bunch of other many many other things. And, and I was here for that first wave of shift like right, you know, in the early 2000s right after my 11 I guess something around there, where those venues sort of all disappeared overnight but then there was a second emergence in the outer boroughs. That felt very exciting to me and I think that this is partially the story of New York is it is continually changing. And then nothing can really stay the same for very long in a way but and Alec said this already there was at least in my experience of New York there was for years and I think even more before my time here. It was somehow possible in New York for artists to find DIY spaces and afford them and they may not last for a very long time but if they disappeared something else would spring up in this place in this sort of really informal community or network of sort of underground venues felt very healthy and that started to disappear in the last 10 years for sure. You know, I don't have, you know, we're not the truck factory is not an organization that has much of a non trade to wealth. I think I understand I have a pretty clear understanding of how large institutions relate to wealth. I do think maybe on a public policy level I would have some strong criticism of where the where the city has chosen to to heavily invest in places like the shed, you know, one can ask the question of whether the shed, does the city need the shed I would I mean I would, I mean, what do you guys think about the shed yeah let's, let's talk about. I mean I don't want to talk poorly of any people and I'm there are people that work at the shed who I actually admire but then I think, you know, I just don't think the city needs something like that that the city has the city needs other the city already has plenty of spaces that fill that purpose. And, and I think this this response in response to your comment about little island I think there is just sometimes a kind of vanity or ego in this notion that we need to build something that would be better than the thing that we that was there before where, when the thing that was there before was actually feeding into the economy of the city and the economy of the art of the performing arts field, actually generating the work and the ideas that are needed for larger and more commercial spaces, I mean spaces like Jack are really important to New York City because so many ideas are created there that find their way into the mainstream not that that's me not that that's, I'm not saying that that's what you're there to do, like, but I think larger institutions, the shed being one of them have to have to need a sort of I don't know to use the metaphor like they need plankton to feed from it's not as if those places exist and have the understanding and the resource to generate to help to help new emerging artists find a way and find their voice to Alex point places like Jack are necessary for that and I think that there's just been a turn away because there's there's not necessarily a kind of cache that is legible outside of of its own community. Yeah, that makes any sense. Yeah, I mean, you hosted Danny, for example, Daniel fish, you know, at the time and no one would give him really a space, you know, and one day he ends up, you know, I was the stuff like a problem, but you know he comes out maybe had too long even being in the same but still that you were there and same with with with Alec and the work, you know with Kada and and so many many other things. A question to both of you let's say tomorrow the new mayor would call you up and put you in charge for the performing arts for theater. What would you guys do what would you put in in motion. I would try to take an investment strategy towards kind of like a startup mentality. I think that's you think a Silicon Valley but devote devote a considerable amount of amount of resources towards supporting the development of small venues across the city, not just those that exist but actually easily accessible startup grants. It took us a Jack, you know, Mimi and I put our life savings into Jack, which was about $50,000. We had our own bank account, we did a space, what New York City is so famous for that we support the artists but you had to go to your own bank account that money ran out after about five months. Yeah, and but fortunately, yes, fortunately we had enough activity at that point to bring in enough box office income our rent was much lower at that point because it scales up over time. And so we were able to just get by month to month and we weren't eligible for city funding until three years in. We weren't eligible for a state funding until two years in. You have to show that you exist. You have to show that you're successful already. And that isn't that's also true with a lot of the foundations private foundations they want to reward success. But a lot of folks who have an idea or a vision, like myself like Brian and Sheila. First of all, they may not have that nest egg of $50,000 to start with. And second of all, they, they, you know, they may not get far enough to get to the point where a foundation would be willing to get because so the seed money is really important. So, so the worst that could happen is that a project fails. And, but then the best that could happen is that another project succeeds wildly, and they would kind of balance each other out just like an investment strategy for someone who's investing in startups right you lose some in the but then you could win big on some others that level of trust and risk taking is completely absent in the funding networks in the city in the state and nationally foundations and whatnot. And it just makes no sense to me that that to support artistic creation which is by nature risk, you know, it's an endeavor that is imbued with risk that also the structures around supporting that work would be so conservative just makes no sense to me. I agree with everything you say. I would add two things. One, and this I don't think this is structurally ever going to happen and it's and I'm not, this is not a blanket critique. And it's certainly much better in New York City now than it was 20 years ago. I think as compared to most other cities in the United States is relatively speaking very, very generous in with this cultural funding. I mean New York City's cultural funding far outstrips the National Endowment for the Arts cultural funding. But in New York City, the majority of those funds are still going to be a small handful of large cultural institutions that that for the most part are housed in city owned properties, the CIGs and they take most of the money. I think it would be quite interesting to shift the scales on that in a meaningful way towards smaller more grassroots organizations. And also, I think, and the chocolate factory, and I'm so grateful for this but it did take, you know, well over 10 years of my life and Sheila Lewandowski, my partner here's life to make this happen. The city of New York helped purchase the building for us, which we now own. It's something that happens almost never in New York, and it took an enormous amount of effort to sort of create a structure that did not exist here for this to happen. And I think it should happen a lot more the way in which small organizations can survive and achieve not I don't think actual stability but more a certain more a certain measure of stability is to own property. Now we know that it's possible that it can actually be done and I think that the city, if it really wants its cultural sector to, to not, you know, disappear. I mean, I mean, I don't, I don't want to be too too man gloom I don't think that it's ever going to disappear. But it is, you know, I think more, it's always under threat. Every year I sort of am asked the question, how, when, for how long are artists going to be able to, you know, tolerate these challenges when are they when are we going to decide that there's some other place that's just better for this kind of exchange to happen. The city could invest, make, you know, long term investments in vital but small organizations help them to own properties so that they don't so that they're not at the whim of this, the volatile real estate market in New York, that would go a long way. So in one way to say, give startup grants, believe in ideas, you know, don't play, you know, catch 22 so you can only do something we can only pay you after three years but you can start it first three years if you don't have some resources to own the property I also would say, you know, the big institutions for 90 to 92% of the budget is fixed it just goes to the existing places. And often they actually also complain maybe for which reasons even Lincoln said that has to raise all the money gets very little percentage of the city but still in our field that is a lot, but also have big organizations host what what's would be so wrong of the New York City Opera would say well let's give it to here art center they can do one opera a year, what would be wrong for you know, to say the chocolate factory does one big play at LC three, you know, and I like you know does something you know that work maybe with the New York City ballet what great stuff comes out of such collaborations were institutions and you spoke about hot and cold you know but often actually something is as if those mixes, you know, turbulence has come the hot and the cold streams and ideas do come out and both of it is needed. So I, I really hope that we will see a change do you feel that black lives matter was a turning point did it had an impact on on you guys and on the New York since theater scene. It is strange to say we also we had so many from the Asian community I know Mimi is you know close to the Asian American, we have the Native American spider women other there's no theater, you know, for a Native American company it's shocking. There's no Yiddish theater, you know, which was so big and has influenced so much that's what in Romania even you know, but not in New York City, we at the Segal hosted the Caribbean, you know, playwright special nobody had ever, which we didn't know at the time when we put together different countries hosted a reading series for Caribbean and they are the largest if I understand, immigrant group if you include Jamaica there's nothing out there and what would really happen if there would be starts out brands for them, you know, say go and do a theater in all the five boroughs. And as you also point out it's not about so much money you don't have to it's not right away 600 million or 80 million like a Dillers Island small things help. And it's even think about for but do you think that pressure that that movement created is was it serious will there be changes or was it lip service. How is it for you guys you have been champions all along anyway, but but what do you think of the larger theme how serious is that change going to be. That's the trend of starting first. Yes, I mean it's, there cannot not be a change. It did the force, the force with which this reckoning has come before the American theater I'll speak specifically over the past year is something that's inescapable, and there needs, there, there, there will be change. And for those organizations and institutions that do not change that is just, it's just so clear right now who those organizations are. And I think that's also becoming. There's, there's some pressure now from some from funders where so really actually hits hits these organizations in their pocket book, which is the is sometimes what really is needed for change in an organization or institution, especially the larger ones. So, I think there was incredible amount of effort and time, given as a gift by people of color in making in these building these demands. It's, it's, it's a, it's a blessing that we have an opportunity to be able to to to read and digest as white as white arts administrators and whatnot to actually read and digest this. These are the demands and these demands for change. And, and then the pressure remains right. There's, there's, those demands came out that we see white American theater demands came out, I would say about a year ago, maybe a little bit less. But there are protests in Philadelphia right now against one of the larger theaters there, the Walnut Street Theater of which I don't know much. I don't know much about that theater but I know there are actual physical protests related to these kinds of demands for inclusivity for pay and, and equity within the organization. You, you see that happening, it hasn't, it hasn't gone away, for sure. I think that was the fear a year ago that maybe these, maybe this would be a passing moment but it doesn't seem like that to me, because especially you have funders really paying attention to those protests and actually creating a putting a lot of money into people of color that organizations right now, building programs and initiatives around supporting artists of color, whether they be straight up grants or and you see program scheduling for organizations which are releasing their fall schedules, programming that really shifting. I see a leadership hires, a lot of new leadership hires around the country. A lot of people of color stepping into leadership roles at organizations for the first time. It continues and this that this movement this reckoning really shifts things in America for the good it will take a long time to really create a system that is equitable and comfortable for people. For, for people of color within white led organizations white founded led organizations. But that movement that that movement towards that comfort has at least begun. Once again, I agree. I mean this was I feel like this was at least from my perspective this reckoning. The field from my you know the first 15 years of my participation in the field, you know, and we were all, I think, allowed to pay lip service to some of these issues that would always be a question on a grant proposal, what are you doing to address. And, but there weren't necessarily consequences to giving a non answer or sort of you know and really not showing real progress on that and that really did shift, but pre pandemic and I think. And it's only been amplified since. And you know it's literally from my board at the chocolate factory, it's possibly the thing that we spend the most time working on is how to how to change the makeup of our board. To really change it, not just to you know just. There's like there's a really, there's a there's this I don't know how to really articulate this well. You know there's a question of who the people are that make up a staff or a board or an artist or as a program and there's also the structural issue of how organizations function and there's you know white supremacy is baked into those structures and how. And then persons of color in positions inside organizations that function in this way can feel the pressure to behave to, to, to operate within structures that are really white supremacist in their to their core and think how can those things change. I don't know but I think that this. It's hard for me to, I mean I have hope, like Alec I have hope that this is. This is not a blip or a moment or a swing of the pendulum that we're just going to, you know, move out from, I really think it's lasting. Yeah, let's see I mean we all experience maybe for the first time in our life a moment of uncertainty but we didn't really know what would happen our lives were in danger perhaps still are but it seems to be over and. And it was a moment in the time to reflect in you both are you know taking steps towards the future what what are you dreaming about if let's say you know you would get an investment you would get resources. In your space or others what, what would you guys do it first of all maybe see what are your plans I would love to hear what is happening till 2024. But also if you would get recently what would you do what would you do and maybe Brian we start with us this time. Yeah, yeah, I mean the quick answer is that you know we'll begin. We've done a few small in person events at at the old and new chocolate factory spaces. You know for small audiences sort of informal small is how big. Well, at the presently we were doing them for fewer than 30 people, I think that we will starting in the fall I think our first. The public event will be the first weekend of October one will be it will be considered full capacity which. And even in our new space because it's even though it's much larger, the state of the CFO is that will still be 74 people or fewer so it'll be quite small. But we'll start to do that again in the fall. And there is a there is a season that's emerging. You know, experimental dance and some theater and some other kinds of things and some partnerships with other venues in the city we've always done a lot of partnerships with with with colleagues here in New York and nationally I mean not generally with ABT or the opera but with smaller organizations that we feel a kinship toward we often partner we've worked with Jack before. So it's a long term dream, you know, I don't really know some of it is some of it is financial some of it is just how some of it is conceptual or spiritual you know the chocolate factory has moved into a direction over the years, where we are kind of a we're sort of a hybrid between residency space and you know presenting organization. We have a lot of space, a lot of time in our space to artists to make things. We host a lot of residencies that aren't necessarily meant to culminate in a premier, but, but a lot but a lot that do. We've made the shift in the last year and a half toward, and it's been really quite a chat it's it's it's it's immensely challenging, but I think it's a good thing to be doing we started to work with each individual person who works on a project in our space, so a director or paragraph for lion designer performer technician, an hourly wage for each hour that they work in our space, which increased our budget by 40% just to do that in the last year and we received funding to support this and I don't know if it'll get how it will continue or in what way, but I would like to expand that, because it's still not nearly enough I would like to expand that I would like to make our commitment and this is a conversation that do versions of this mean here our center does versions of this but I would like to. When we when we talk to an artist about a commission, I would, I would love for that to be a much long, much more long term commitment to say okay well we're going to we'll work with you for four years. And each year we're going to pay you to do and and to sort of. And this is the part that I think is tricky is to take to set to somehow separate the financial instructional commitment to an artist from the results, and to say we're here to support you and if you want to make a show during that time. Great, if you don't great, whatever the end. That's the thing that I would love to do and don't really see a path toward doing, I mean it's I don't think it's really feasible within our resources presently, but, and also you know because of the structure of funding for artists to outside of venues. It's really hard to get off the train of making shows because that's where the everything is tailored to support that that that as the finish line. I don't know that there is a grant you can get that's just sort of to support, but I mean I guess the MacArthur or the Guggenheim could be this you get a grant and it's just to recognize the work that you've already done not to not to help you get to the premiere of something. Kind of like a three picture deal and the movie industry they say you can do three films whatever you want we pay for it, you know, yeah, and you can create something and two of them can be bad. Basically, you know, and I mean and to your earlier point like that's you know that's something that I think in this in venture capital in the startup world is or in Hollywood yes people have these deals where it's just like we just we just want, you know we're going to pay you and you're just going to show us your ideas and we may or may not do anything with them but you're going to get money out of this. Yeah, I love that Brian, and that reminds me actually have so who reps idea that came out of the pandemic. Also, you know, really something that as we're looking at ways that arts organizations have been able to reflect during this pandemic with new ideas this is one of the one of the coolest I felt like, which is this project number one they're calling, which is, I think they give their, they select a certain number of artists a cohort of like nine or 10 artists and pay them a salary for the year or multiple years. And it seems like there's, there's that that that approach of not necessarily product focused, but rather, we think you're a valuable artist and we want to make sure that you are able to pay your living expenses so that you can write, or you can create and go and explore your artistry I just think that that's, that's great. And what's more, it seems like there's, there are funders now who are really into that into supporting those kinds of visions such as that that is so who rep I know that that was a grant funded project or at least has become supported by a foundation. There is interest in the funding community in giving organizations money to be to then give to artists as by a significant sums to be able to just just create their work. So that that's really something that we, we haven't. Yeah, on our radar are some different efforts but certainly something that we're, we're learning about that kind of that kind of project. Jack, I mean our big vision is to buy our to buy our own space, right. And, or better yet to have someone buy it for us. Right. That to have that permanent stability in our neighborhood and neighborhood with whom we have so many connections and a bit in building so many relationships. We don't want to end up in eight years at the end of our lease, having to move to a completely new neighborhood because that's just what we can afford at that time. We are of Clinton Hill we've been here for nine years and we want to stay forever. Our local senior centers right around the corner they come to see all of our shows. You know we have, we have all sorts of relationships related to the politics of the district, much like the chocolate factory has done. Chocolate factory has done candidate forums for local elected officials in its past. We started doing that ourselves last year and if I had extremely rewarding way to be connecting to to be proving that an art space is a community space is a political space just inherently and, and to be really offering that service and deepening our relationship to our neighborhood. So, so yes certainly our space. And buying it is is our big vision. Other visions we have really with that opportunity would would mean that we'd have $100,000 that we're currently paying and rent that could go to artists right that could boost those artists fees we already have that goal of doubling those artists fees by next year. But really it's still not enough, we're not, we're not paying the artists a living wage by any means at this point, even if, even if our, our, our modest artists fees are doubled so how can we pay them a living. What would that look like. What kind of support can we build to make sure that we are a part of keeping our artists in New York, and keeping them focused on what they do best. Yeah, and I think you both all right, your space are civic spaces they are social spaces they are community places where ideas get exchanged people see themselves on there. They're not that part of their life on on a stage or they see new technology and get comfortable with the moment we live in with the future where you know this will be part of us you try to create meaning and why why you try to do you actually do create meaning because it's open and it's of significance to have a real engagement and going back I haven't been on that island but you know what comes to mind that art. I think they said, are we also going to do performances but it's going to be like on the court of Louis cartours and Versailles where artists are kind of acrobats and you know, and do you know fancy ballet dances, you know, as a decorative element, of a celebration of the rich and the wealthy, you know, and which is already so highly celebrated for wrong reasons in American culture. Tanya Bruguera, the great Cuban artist said, the French Revolution was an incredible democratic gesture. Why do we go still to the Louvre. Why do we go to the palaces. Why do we go to the big state overhouses, you know, we can also go and it's to buy why not in the homes of the people of the workers and why not in the neighborhoods like Lentinello, you know where Brian is and why not take, you know, interest in the lives of for the people by the people with the people that is our democratic mission and I think you both do that as so many, so many, many others and I wanted to have you on here earlier and I'm supposed to of course you know I'm happy to have you with us but it is. I'm quite, you know, often of of significance, you know what you do and you make the city breathe and work, and it shouldn't be so complicated it should not be so hot it would mean very little to people those real financial means to support this instead of creating their own or to distribute redistribute some of the wealth to make the city a greater place to create an atmosphere as you both said when you walked through a little of a street you know so. And the great memories of great atmospheres whether it was Paris Berlin Vienna is in paintings it's in poetry, some performances in scores you know they were just able the artists to note it down but what inspired it was an atmosphere and this has to be real it has to be manufactured by just the successful people it has to be a real engagement and we have a right to access of art to access of education the access to health care access to politics and so you're doing really a very significant work. And as the last question or comment I mean there's this old joke in Berlin to artists meet and what do they talk about you know they talk about money financials and then you know the finance guys meet you what do they talk about like art of the opera Miami Basel or whatever you know so what you guys are great artists. You take such care also of artists, we just have civil camps civil camps and with that and she said, actually, if I really could do what I want I want to do Wagner's ring cycle, which might have been idea for the chocolate factory. I don't know how that would be possible but who knows but what are your artistic ideas also that you, what would you have that projects you dream of what would you guys like to do. I'll jump in. I've been dreaming a lot about large scale work. You know, I, by necessity a lot of early career artists in New York have only the small canvas to paint on that is as a performance maker you are working in 50 seat venues for quite some time. And that's also the case for me, although, calling me early careers, a little bit disingenuous given my, my age. As a middle aged man, but still I as someone tied to the experimental performance scene and that's where my work is situated. I think why can't we have an armory dedicated to early career artists, and instead of, or as well as an armory that's devoted to European big shots coming over and presenting their work, or, or, or more mature artists that are presenting work. I'd love to see what so many of the so many like Zachary Ty Richardson would do with a, you know, with a 20,000 square foot space. Justin Allen, you know what Justin Hicks, the hot plates, what would, what would writing for that kind of space look like for a playwright, such a large scale. Personally, I'm a director theater director, often create work from scratch with my ensemble. I'm just so curious what my work would look like in such a space. I have so many visions of different things that I would do in an armory style space. So that's, so that's, that's one thing that's on my mind, obviously, a little bit unrelated to being at Jack because Jack, it remains an intimate space. But it's something that we're starting to think about Oh, is there a connection that Jack can make a partnership with a larger space, either in New York City or beyond, where that where where artists could be in residence in both spaces, or or just once, or just the larger space but have it be a Jack co production. Something like that I've been talking with Roger feather Kelly also about that he also aches the choreographer aches for that kind of large canvas to work on. Yeah, that's my contribution. Yeah, totally I mean I think my comment would be sort of related I mean this is, and it's sort of. It applies to my own work and to the, to the work of artists. I'm interested in and trying to support you know I've made this sort of shift into filmmaking in the last handful of years, and I made a feature film that came out in 2018. It was you know, made on a, on a downtown theater show budget so it was in very made very very quickly for very little money and I want personally I mean I want to make more films. And I find it quite challenging to just even enter the world. The quote unquote film world and find opportunities there because these disciplines. I think now in some ways more than in the past are sort of distinct universes from each other, and I think that one of the things that was a really a really important principle for me starting the chocolate factory. And it's something that I have nostalgia for even though I wasn't around like this notion when you hear certain artists who are maybe in their 80s now who are part of the downtown scene. In 60s and 70s talked about how fluid. Disciplines were and you know poets would hang out with painters and hang out with dancers and there was like a kind of cross pollination happening there that I mean I obviously it's it doesn't not happen at all but it doesn't. I don't see it happening enough. In, in my world, anyway, partially because we're so busy and our work, each of our worlds are so rich already so if you want to just if you want to keep track of the downtown experimental dancing that could occupy every night of your week and leave no no room for artists and I know that's even more true for theater and. But I think I would love to see more fluidity between those worlds and more ease of track of trafficking between them for artists, which I think is totally related to the notion of scale that you that you brought up like this idea that you have a certain stature or accomplishments who have access to. To the really to the grand scale of things is, it's just a strange construct to me like why does that, why is it even. It makes no sense. Yeah, I think you know we really have covered a wild field and the way we scratch the surface but in some places I think we went in deep and it just shows there is a need to have these talks these discussions and to think think through in this moment was a rapture and the car that came to a sudden full stop and was flipping in the air it looks like at least here in the US perhaps it does land on its four wheels with some trenches but we really maybe have to change the direction we are driving to and you know have maybe other drivers and co drivers and and some new motorists inside it was ecologically better so it's a it's a very big discussion and I really would like to thank all of you to give an update in the middle still you know from the trenches and from trying to make that happen you have all our respect for what you created and that it was thinkable for you to make that investment and and many people of course to say well you know they had an access at least they had something you know but many people have that and actually much, much, much more and they didn't do it. And what you guys created over years and times over decade is a model for for many others to be looked at it's also working it's successful, and it makes a real contribution so really, all our respect and thanks for for what you do you know as one says the other golden cathedrals in Rome, and they think they're close to God and there's some little wooden churches in Finland or Scandinavia or whatever you but who's really closer, you know, to that idea. And I think your spaces are close to the gods of the theater and I think you're also blessed because of that of your in your lives and with the contribution you do and please do go on and stay in contact and perhaps you know you know we would like to try to create some kind of an international festival in New York City if it comes in the summer and two years from now to be a host to use this would be places we would be thinking of and maybe we can collaborate on that it would be a great thing to also show that you have to be both local but also global and I think both of you guys, and that they're really. Thank you again for everything you have done it we're coming to an end today and to an end of the seagull talks tomorrow. In the last month we have Frances Casadeos Calvo from Barcelona a very significant festival Greco in Barcelona one of the great European theaters festivals, Joe Malillo pointed at us towards them say this is interesting what they're doing we should talk about it, what does that mean a festival for city and how maybe can we bring that atmosphere and spirit, and also back to New York and, and, and we will see who knows five or 10 years from now, how things will look like and maybe it will fall but it's a serious time, and also we cannot screw this up it has to be a better new world we entering now and I hope that this will be in the case so thank you for spending the time thanks for how run for hosting us today but so, since last March, as incredible commitment they showed you towards this idea, so to us, and it has make a real contribution thank you for all listeners I know so many. Listen it and to know that you guys once in a while listening means so much to me and to all of us here at the Seagull Center, because this is the best we can hope for so thank you and stay safe and I hope to see you soon and come to your services and we have a beer together congratulation on everything and to our listeners stay safe as tune in tomorrow and then hopefully in July around 21 was probably going to do a 24 hour. Thank you to all the theater artists globally who took care of communities like both of you guys and highlighting the situation in India which Abhishek Majumba says it is actually almost state organized murder. And what is happening there and the Indian government in India itself also should make aware that the world is watching and he asked for help. Every night they are there out there and I think it's quite exemplatory what they are doing so I hope you both also can join us and read something and talk with some Indian artists and to show our compassion so thank you all, and goodbye. Thank you. Thank you bye bye.