 Well, okay, all right outfit Okay, so then continuing so so we should check carefully through all this in case learn edit anything else We might not want Okay, so essentially for part B here, right? This is sort of outlining that the the method in a nutshell So once you pass a threshold you've won a seat, right? So that candidate surplus then gets distributed according to transfer value and we can again specify The Wigan method here if you feel that needs to be clarified for how to define transfer value And then part three here is Eliminating weakest candidates once you don't have anybody passing the threshold And then four just says keep going until you fill everything Okay, and she actually has a clause here So that once you get down so that the number of continuing candidates equals the number of seats to be filled You're done and you just elect all of them So do we want to keep that? Essentially that means even if only a person just got one vote that they survived to the end You're elected That would happen under RCB anyway Okay, that's right now. So that's just sort of consistent with with current method then. Yeah, I mean I would simply remove it because it's unnecessary, right rank choice voting will already do that Unless language and law equals better language and law Yeah, yeah, I think it's nice to have there just to assert that that is Is the way it will work that's okay. I wasn't quite sure what we were allowed to do in that case So I I actually kind of find that helpful I guess it would also be nice just in case we have to do like a hand recount or use excel at some horrid point in the future and We can be like, oh, hey, look at that. We're down to the same number of candidates. There's spots left. No more work Yeah, and that's true. Thank you. So it's also explicitly telling this you don't have to go through the rounds Exhaustively that you can just serve stop at that point Okay, so is all this language seem Correct any concerns with this part B? Seems fine All right, so move on to part C Okay, so this just says we'll figure out the tiebreakers and I think a lot of these different softwares that we have available offer different Options that you just have to choose a method available among available methods That's fine. Yeah, I think the only thing Uh, this might be covered already Is whatever method it is has to be reproducible At least as far as possible, right? Ah, yes. Yeah, you know it went something random Yeah, because otherwise you could rerun the election and the vote totals could be the same but you could end up with different winners Yeah It's often done is you record what the outcome was of like a coin flip and then you just reuse that Uh, okay, that's what the second sentence says, you know Must be recorded and we used Yes, there's different methods like some methods randomly order candidates and the tiebreaker is sort of where you come in the order Whoever's listed first Wins the tie, you know, there's there's all kinds of different things but as long as you record it The outset Then it's all reproducible Although we can if you like the word reproducible we can be uh, so Results of any tie breaking events when it says must be recorded and reused in the event of recounts. Yeah, I think that covers it Yeah, I think we want reproducible because if it's if we end up with a random thing It may not be reproducible, but if it's recorded Then we can reuse it. Yeah, I think it's fine the way it is. Oh, I see what you're saying peggy. Yeah, that makes sense Yeah, like we could if we said it has to be reproducible that would mean a coin flip couldn't be used right? Yeah, I got you All right, so so then I want to look carefully at d to make sure it's we made some change actually hit on your um Andy has a comment about ties Is that Andy? Is that in case of just is that just for state elections or uh, I thought amherst had uh Well, we talked to Lauren about this. Yeah, I forget what town of uh tie ties break down to but Well, she said so long as we build it into our special act we can Right because there's sort of a difference in plurality between flies where there's sort of no means of tie breaking besides coin flips And something like ring choice where you can go back and say well who had more votes in a previous round or something Um, but yeah, we talked about this with Lauren and she said so long as it's kind of baked into our special act We can have this that's why the tie breaking language is there. So I think Um, essentially get special permission to do do our own tie breaking and not have to rerun the election Uh, okay, and it doesn't seem like Lauren Had any comment on the tie breaking stuff so That probably works. I just don't know if we're if the state calls for a Uh, a special election, but we have basically a Tie breaking provision that doesn't identify what the tie breaker is If we're still overriding it But since Lauren didn't put any comments on it. I'm assuming this is good. Yeah, well, she wrote this whole tie breaking Language here. So this is all yours. So oh, that's great. Yeah, that works Have anything we just asked her like what we do about tie breaking and she she wrote that up for us Is this another instance in which we we change it to say the the town clerk? Subject to review by board of directors will establish Yes already be there Oh, so you mean the second time that the board appears Uh No, I'm sorry. I was looking because the the screenprint is so small I was looking at my word version instead of what was on the screen here Um, but that's a good point. So maybe amended from time to time. Should I I guess Maybe the town clerk by themselves shouldn't be able to amend it. Is that something that's appropriate to say the board? So that's kind of overseen Maybe maybe you could just cut the second by the board So just so it reads the method for tie breaking may be amended from time to time But shall not be amended during the course of an election Which implies a good solution Take that out Yeah, so I think that's sort of I mean it says the town clerk Reviewed by the board will establish the methods. So I think that sort of implied that if you make a change That's how the change would also happen. What's the course of election mean? You can't sort of midstream like well, I understand what we're trying for it to mean But like does that specifically mean Like what's the course? Is it election day? Is it two weeks before election day? Is it three weeks? That's what I want to know. I think once voting has begun perhaps So you could like you and it would be okay for the the town clerk to change the tie breaking method Up to the minute before voting occurs But you know, you don't hear results until the election closes Until the polls close and you start tabulating Okay I don't think there's anything technically wrong with that. I think it would cause some pretty big suspicious looks Yeah, but it could also be necessitated like if there's some kind of last-minute software updates and like some little minor thing gets changed So that won't happen because but Yeah, that won't happen. But I will say this is what my concern was Uh, what if you know, I mean this would be a self-imposed problem Obviously if it says the town clerk subject to review, right but like The software needs to be set up and good to go like weeks before the election If they change the voting method or if they change the tie breaking method, then they actually have to go Change the configuration on the software That's true. And then there won't be time to test that you have to have So I'm not saying that this doesn't work or that this doesn't you know, isn't a good solution because again If the town clerk decided if Susan decided like, oh, it's five minutes before election I'm going to change the tie breaker to be arm wrestling, you know That would be a self-imposed problem obviously But yeah, okay Yeah, I know it's definitely found by the uh programming once the programming's done you're locked in So for D. Let me see. I had a comment which is this seems to be wrong, right? I thought last uh meeting We had uh determined that if there was an overvote We were going to discard the rest of them That's exactly what we decided It's wrong in our report as well. So So any skip ranking or repeat Overvote So in place of in this highlighted part in place of the highest continuing ranking must be determined Be a predetermined rule. You just want to write in The overvote and any Further rankings are discarded further is not the right word, but subsequent subsequent. There you go I mean in fact, this isn't entirely wrong because that predetermined rule could just be that The overvote candidates and everybody below Is discarded that is true. Yeah But this does imply that we would be choosing between those two candidates and I don't think we want to imply that All right, so so say again, what what let's I think it'd be good to actually just specify what we think this should be and put it in Yeah, so can Peggy or someone what what's the wording that it seems here to clarify this I think in the case of an overvote involving two or more continuing candidates the overvote candidates and any Candidates with subsequent rankings will be discarded Or with lower rankings, perhaps will be discarded Something like that. Does that work? Yeah I like that. We're nailing that down. I think that's the right choice Like to to some extent we want to keep it open for them to you know change things as needed But on the other hand like if it's too finicky persnickety and changeable then people are going to lose faith if you know People are changing it all the time to see Andy suggests the language the ballot shall be concluded included or Exhausted in the below it says essentially it's making the ballot Well, well, it's not exhausted because you're talking about an error on the ballot before we do anything. Yeah So i'm not sure that means the ballot shall be concluded I mean, I see what he's saying like the ballot is concluded as in like that's the end of the rankings, right? But I think in terms of just ease of understanding It's just easier to say that they're discarded Yeah, we'd have to define what it means to be concluded if we run Because it's not clear just okay as is so we're we're happy with this This language and again that you know, they're they're likely to have you know talk to lauren again and do some further tweaking before it actually gets submitted Just to optimize the chances of getting it through Could we say considered invalid or But that's going to suggest that the ballot is considered invalid Well, no because it specifically says the overvote candidates and all subsequent ranked candidates will be considered invalid But that might not be the right word. It's a it's a hard one. I'm not sure It'll be disregarded Yeah, I like that worded is good Yeah, I like that that's good Like that. It's good all right So anything else on part d that we needed to fix here And that's essentially all of the substantive stuff. The rest is just some legal east that Dorn put One question about andy's comment at 250. Did we include that or do we understand what he's saying there? Why not write in the early around method? Yeah, did we oh with the tie breaking? Um, so that's up to us if we want to you know, so some details We're deciding we really want baked in and other details. We're like and we're willing to leave it up to them to I'd say we leave that particular one just up to them simply because uh, some of the software may include the earlier round determination but some may not And honestly people get a little weird about tiebreakers like people have been doing coin flips for a long time and they may legit decide like no Even though it makes more sense. We want a coin flip Like and hey, okay, sure Actually, what we've done in the past is on basically if there's a tie there's a failure to elect Oh, yeah Yep That's isn't that the state law if you do it again It is But we're hoping to avoid that I know That's what andy was saying with the special runoff election Yeah, but I could see if it gets danced the nitty-gritty in you know It truly is like you're down to the last two candidates The last seat and you have no way of distinguishing them and you don't want a coin flip You might have to run another election if you decide that's right But you don't have to run a whole nother election just because in round two You have a tie like between two candidates to eliminate or something like I think we We essentially want to have enough tiebreakers in place. You can have a good shot at completing the election If we want to include language here, I would vote for the The previous round check that we talk about um, I think that would Require and you know some decent texts behind it to explain how that works I vote that we leave it as is I agree I'm fine with that All right, so any other last things here before we move on to the report so we've Made a bunch of updates here um So the biggest changes are we changed the threshold definition just to the explanation of what it is but got rid of a formula um, we specified wiggum And then we made some of these The change to the overvote I think those are kind of the big big ones here we made any any Last concerns with any any of these changes here You know just to add to what we were last talking about It's fine Fine leaving the language like that. We should make it clear that they can't just Keep using the same like they can't When we say, you know, they have to choose a tie breaking method. That's fine, but they have to understand that We're they actually need to pick a method to break ties because of how rank choice voting works And we do not want to have a runoff elect, you know a special election every like you said if there's a tie in a round So, you know, I just want to make sure that we have When we may already have something in the either recommendations or otherwise that makes that clear So they, you know, so they understand that they can't just default to the way it was right Because they may just read that and you know absent whatever is in our report They may say oh, we'll just do it the way we currently do it You know without thinking about it Yeah, well, there is no current way to do it Without just holding another election, right? They may just refer to mass law and say like oh well in the case of a tie We just do a runoff. We just do a special election. Okay. We'll just do that So it sounds to me is that this this should go into our report that among the various things that The town needs to do in order right implementation is determined what methods going to use they're going to use for tie breaking Right, we could mention the sort of previous round Suggestion. Yep In the what you mean in the report. Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely. I don't think we do at this point. So that's right That's right Yeah, that that makes sense to me because in the report Kind of our overall goal is besides just laying out the overall You know implementation rcv is to say here are the specific choices you have to make And since that's one of them. Yeah, we should put that in there Yeah all right so What if we do just like a three minute break here now that we're kind of we were through the first hour we've gotten um The special act stuff figured out. It's maybe just take a three minute break and come back and we'll Tackle the report itself and try to get through that Okay, sure. Yeah Thank um all right So let's Dive in and see how efficiently we can get this part done here. So do we have everyone back again? Here yeah, yes, he's back I'm ready Okay, so we finalized our special act language. I can then copy in as our first appendix So the Issues that I had highlighted So I added tiebreakers in there that we should think where we might want to add that If there's any deadlines we wanted to to list in there and I don't know if anywhere we recommended some Post implementation assessment just to see how things are going if that was already part of our I remember That's part of the appendix that John made for us or not through the the list of things from Minneapolis In one question was we're inconsistent Sometimes we call it the secretary of state that it's actually I think technically secretary of the commonwealth So does that matter which one we call it? Everybody says secretary of state that it's technically secretary of the commonwealth Well, let's use secretary of the commonwealth then. Yeah should stick with that Okay, so I I will go through and fix that that's something easy for me to go through and just check later. So Change it all to say that So I guess this first issue is a really a question first through are there any Deadlines that we should highlight in terms of when something absolutely has to be done for you to be able to run an election with the rcb So I'll have to um get back to you on that because um Tomorrow because I have all that information. I actually just ran a timeline for paul He said the town probably going to be interested but it mostly involves Um nomination papers when they're due back by for us to get that information onto the ballot all of that So I have that in my office. I will send that to you tomorrow morning Okay, okay So then that the next item is tie breakers. So where do we want to add that in? So let's limit these sections After ballot errors and voter intent Yeah, ballot errors and voter intent. Um, so we want this to be its own new section Yeah Because then we have the methods they have to Choose between although we have a recommendation and then we actually we put We put wiggum in the special act, right? Yes, so we should change the Just some of the language and methods for rank choice ballot to indicate that Wiggums were going for but here's why we chose it and These are the other methods that could potentially be used sometime in the future Say again, what was what were you suggesting we change? We should just do a once-over of methods and rank choice ballots So that any language in there that indicates they have a choice about it is removed because they don't we put it in the special act now Oh, you're just saying me Yeah, it would be confusing if it's like oh, here's some things you can choose between and then it's like no, no, you can't The law says you cannot Well, except the law hasn't been passed. Oh, well, yeah But we can put something like uh, you know, we recommend wiggum be used as is currently indicated in the special act language or something Right. Yeah, we don't we don't need to point out to them that they can change things if they want to Because we don't want them to Okay, so then we'll need to add a new section on tiebreakers To go through later and update all these numbers Okay, so the tiebreakers will be a new section So yeah, so let's maybe just Go through and you can give me your your comments. So for the executive summary What comments did people have? um Beginning the top of page three that paragraph I think uh Before the word security we need the word and Where are you suggesting putting it in Peggy? between ballot design and security protocols And everyone um, it says if the town determines that implementation the very next paragraph is not possible Due to delays the town should seek a special act to permit the continued use of plurality So we did find out today. Um, did you get the email from paul? Or and so we don't need to actually get a special act Because it would just automatically revert to state law in running the election Uh, that's great The town would by default run elections according to state law just something like that something like that I don't know if I say um Delays associated with the pandemic because it could be other delays that happen as well If we have no idea how long it takes for the legislature to approve it For example, or for our town council to approve it. So if the Like if they're going as fast as they can and it's not approved by the state, I don't think there's like that's not Breaking with what the charter decided and I would not put delays as a generalized term in there because I mean just look at main, right? They were like, oh, yeah, you all voted to implement rank choice voting But for reasons we can't do that for 10 years You know like uh, no So, okay with my my updated version. Did you want to put in something that says they shouldn't delay too long or just to specify that I mean it's after it's up to them after all it we're recommending they proceed But if they can't this is what would happen You know, I wouldn't put it in at all Dude just entirely like if you know there I just removed that whole thing, you know, if they have a really substantial reason why it can't be implemented by 2021 elections They'll work it out, right? Like we don't need to put text in our recommendations that say Oh, if you can't get done in time, don't worry about it, you know, because it's really not up to us Yep Okay, yeah looks good Under in the next paragraph. Actually, I have a bunch of small copy edits. I can send you separately. They're not worth going into Yes, if it's just minor things, that's fine. Yeah, we could do is mark them up Maybe highlight them to make sure I yeah, I just couldn't type them in this version because there's already so many changes that Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna accept all changes and then make your changes Yeah, I just want to try to keep it clear where I've been making changes. So I got yes a little out of hand So the paragraph below the calculation of voters rank preferences um The part about let's see Without specialty software and under the second paragraph under technical Mm-hmm. I just um, let me see Without specialty software in case of hand recounts. I wasn't sure what The specialty software apartment. I just thought it was by hand in case of a recount I was mandated by the state That's true. We can potentially use software. We just need to hand compile So may just want to generalize it make it generalize. Yeah. Yeah And so maybe we just want to move the recount So we can talk about The software we describe the options off the recommendation um and then may just point out a a process for recount must be specified or determined or I don't know if this goes under technical I don't know if you think we even need to mention recounts. I don't think we do here We're we're going on the assumption that A hand recount means that the um The cast vote record has to be created Again manually But once it is we can still run it through the software to actually run the election, right? That sounded like what Lauren said we could do which right so in that case I don't think we need to talk about recounts here. Okay So I had a um, can we move on to the next comment Are we? So the second paragraph under policy consideration so I didn't Um, I'm confused by that sentence a method that advantages greater accuracy is reflecting voters preferences thereby achieving the policy goals of rcv Presents challenges. Are you is this a specific but unnamed reference to the meek's method? I'm not I just wasn't clear what that sentence was trying to say Let me let me read it again Yeah, that's that's essentially a reference to meeks so the As the the method gets more complicated in reflecting voter preferences It becomes uh less transparent and more difficult to use in hand recounts So that's true in terms of meeks, but I don't believe that's Accurate as a general rule I think we could I was just going to suggest we cut that sentence. Yeah, I would say so too I think that the section in which you describe all of those methods john is very clear It doesn't have to be And we're so clear on a recommendation that we don't have to muddy the waters Is that okay john? Sure. Yeah Should we though specify here maybe? I mean we we say we offer recommendations But the special act actually has a specific thing baked in so do we want to mention that here sort of at this very top of the document just to really Draw attention to the fact that something has been baked in I would say instead of this report describes the options and offers recommendations, I would say, you know, the special act Requires the use of the wiggum method Yeah, I don't I think we should say something like we we Describe the options and recommend wiggum which we have written into the special act which has been written into the special act Yeah, I was going to kick in you and do that except backwards Yeah, I think that special act The special act reflects our recommendation. Yes. Oh, I like that. Yeah, let's say that again The special act reflects our recommendation that period So do we want to keep any of this other sentence? No No I think for number three down below we can Probably cut the The recommendation just to say I don't think we need to deal with the onerous part to just Say to ensure election security The computer must meet the criteria Just make it Do that Yeah Okay Number seven for recommendation charge the town clerk with drafting such a program And timeline for consideration and approval Is I I have a feeling the voter outreach and education is going to be several months So that needs to get built in this is going to fly The question for Sue a lot of these say, you know, we're going to challenge charge the town clerk and Yeah Check my town board but how does this actually work? What's the right? Right, like people to be doing which Well, actually, um, we do have a communications team. So, um I think the town manager is going to have to be brought into it Just to Decide who's going to be tackling what you know what I mean Because we've got a internet specialist. We have you know, we have a lot of different parts of the puzzle I think, you know, the town clerk ultimately is in charge of running the election Maybe it is maybe this is correct to leave it so that the town clerk will just outsource all the different areas that Are needed Okay, you're okay with this as as it's written that makes sense Yeah Yeah, and considering for the town manager there it is. Yeah, it could also be the town manager It's right there. Yep So there we go. Yeah All right says the part eight here updated with our new Do you mean the overvote section? Yeah, here we go. This card Okay, yeah, that hasn't been updated, right? So this is Yeah, that's that's incorrect as written So it was what we decided was only in the case of skipped votes that we would promote Not in the case of overvotes right And I mean that's also written into the act Yeah, there's a lot of things that are written into the act. That's okay. Okay We just need to go through and make sure that we're consistent Now that we've like, you know changed our mind on a couple things to make sure we have it all Not confusing I think we can actually get rid of the undervotes Since it's I mean, there's not That's how it's handled now. So yeah, it might be just just to keep this a little tighter. Yep I don't I don't understand why you would remove that I I was thinking the same thing and one thing we have to keep in mind is most people in the town council are not that familiar with elections so May have to do a little more hand-holding Say that again I'm saying there's a lot of people in the town council don't wouldn't know half of the terms we're using and are not familiar With you know, a lot of election terminology. So I think we're just the methods or policies I think leaving things in like this are good Well, it's it's fully explained in the the whole section. I just suggesting true This list because it's not something special To rank choice voting. So I wanted to keep kind of I see what you're saying What things actually would change Okay I'm fine with that I would almost think you could just mail the make the whole section determine the policies to be used in assessing voter intent in regard to Repeat candidates skip votes and duplicate votes Because if you look at your heading for the section It's um, we've identified the following matters is requiring your decisions Yeah, are you saying that we would leave out our recommendations? I don't know in that section. I I guess I'm trying to figure out a way to to tighten it up a bit But I do like the way John's laid out all the recommendations for each thing that they need to make a choice But we give a recommendation Like for each thing. So I kind of like okay, can you all right? All right, but it summarizes here's the issue. This is what we recommend But you know in the final analysis, it's up to you to actually The town council to actually make all these choices the town clerk the town manager Got it. So one might actually help then for read readability is to take recommendation The word recommendation and what follows and put in italics or something so it stands out a little Because I don't think I think it just might make it more readable Let me make a note to myself. I can go do that having a shot Do the last sort of formatting I'll go through and do that Just to help them. Yeah pop out a little bit Okay, so then Maybe we can just get rid of item 10. We seem to be this morning to avoid that issue Yeah, that's moot And instead of finalizing special act, we essentially want them to submit it as we have it so we could just say Submit the special act to the general court They will need to run it by lauren one more time though, right? I mean now that we've made changes We don't want to imply that lauren has seen this exactly word for word Thank you. Well, I can leave in the recommendation that they work with the town attorney and Coordinate with the office of secretary of the commonwealth So I'll leave in those recommendations by kind of being a little more direct just saying get this submitted Is that is okay? Yeah, we need to say something like in Moving That's by where that is Then that's the end of the executive summary, which is probably the most important part of this will probably be the most read two pages at the whole report So we want to make sure this is clear and has everything we want in it That people will know if they're only going to read a minimum Thank you, john. I think this is very well done It's very helpful I thought that the the set of recommendations at the end was My my goal there was to give them a roadmap for what they needed to do So we're ready to move on and you can of course always I'll Set a time at which I will submit this tomorrow. So I also need to get sues timeline stuff implemented in So you can still send me any kind of updates to like noon tomorrow Let's say that if you realize there's some other things that you catch or you want changed Get them to me by noon tomorrow and It's still fixed this if you catch something. It's it's not quite right or typo or something section one Any changes here? Changes to section one. I don't have any One and another Nope likewise So section two And you might know that I add some more formatting. I tried to imitate suggesting his section had sort of done subsection So I went through and tried to make that more consistent through all the section The I think that's actually helpful kind of and people can refer To the part they want to talk with us about and I added little slummaries really brief summaries at the top Yeah, I like that. That's me too. Um one thing maybe you I don't know What your idea about this is but I noticed the font changes numerous times in this I assume that's you just haven't gotten to that yet or I'll I'll smooth all of that. Yeah, just differences people sent me their documents They would I don't know somehow be in different fonts sometimes Yeah, I'll I'll make sure that's all consistent in the final great Yeah, and sometimes word does crazy stuff like They'll somehow be hidden Somewhere that it thinks like a space isn't a different font and then you start typing and Like it's a different font than everything else. So yeah, I'll get that all fixed before the final version Yeah, all the the line spacing and font and yeah all of that And like it's inserting the section numbers. I've been holding off on that because we just keep adding sections Okay, uh, so any changes to section two in note I put in Some updated examples to try to kind of give the flavor of why But I would I my understanding of the original motivation for the two member districts combined with rank choice voting um what the The charter commission immediately originally had in mind for why that would kind of be a good combination Don't kill me on this. Um the thing that confuses me between the two different graphics is that For one, it's all four candidates are across the top and for the other one. It's uh done in a matrix So I think that's when I was reading and I'm like wait a minute And I had to like spend more time on this than I should have if that makes any sense Okay, so I change it to be consistent so that they're both I think one Yeah, like the vertical better one. Yeah Okay Is enough One, um one of the changes that I made in the last round of revisions especially with regard to Wigam and the other methods is that I I stopped using tabulation to really mean calculation And I see that Somewhere along and in section is it section two we've we've got That um In 2.3 for example We've got transparency in how results are tabulated And probably that ought to be calculated. Maybe we want to do a global search to make sure that we're using Tabulated consistently and calculated consistently I'll make a note and I can that's gonna be that Yeah, I think that's that's important that does something that I think confused us for a while that we We're using terms interchangeably and we should Distance so I will do that Yeah, it looked like you did a good job of not using voting machines, but using tabulators when We're talking about tabulators, which I appreciate Right. I mean in your point John the last sentence in that section Where it requires tabulation software able to compute the town's desired rcv method right exactly What you're talking about, right? Right So I would change voting machines right above that then I'm actually not sure I would there I because I I am at this point which we do later talk about what voting machines means But here we just I feel like we're just alerting them that Whatever they're thinking about for voting machines isn't going to work And you may be right. I just well, they're still called tabulators there aren't they? They are right now Will the will the town council if we just start talking about tabulators without making that equivalency will they understand what we're talking about? Voting machines are currently called tabulators. Yeah, they are they should understand that. Yeah for that. Okay Okay, I didn't know that before I started meeting with this committee. I didn't either That but that's where yeah, it's The glossary or fractal votes were I still don't know I'm kidding It's very complicated All right We should keep trying to move along any other concerns in this section I want to point out So then we have ever specific implementation Quick question where you've got plurality block in italics and underline. Is that a hyperlink to the appendix or is that Just just just because it's it's It's the the markup track changes Okay, but italics. Okay. Yeah, um nice talking to one of the uh voting expert Guys and they said that the the right the right description here of our current method is plurality block and I google that and it does look Nails exactly what we do. So great But voting is italicized too So All right So yeah, so once once the the change is Accepted it'll just look like I just italicizing it as a term So here's a question on section 3.3 We have um we've baked in the wiga method for um multi-winner elections But we didn't bake in something for the oliver smith will There's only really one flavor for the single winner Really? Yep, I mean Because there's no transfer of there's no act. There's no access votes, right? Right, right. Yeah, it meant meaning that the wiga method still applies for a single winner So you just don't need it because in a single winner there if There's no the method is only required when you are transferring access votes past the threshold Well, that's what the method's used for Right, but that's assuming that um, I mean there's lots of ways to to do rank choice voting that are not Eliminating the last person You know eliminate right but the way that the charters specified it we're tied into essentially instant runoff voting for single One way to do it. Yeah Okay Can we go back up to three two please? um, so it says about um Let's see tabulation will occur at the at the polls or polling places I guess and then it says town hall for absentee ballots, but we actually do absentee ballots at the polling places That's right. Well, we have the option of uh, yeah, no, that's correct Happens at the polls I thought this last time it didn't absentee happens The polls and early voting ballots happened at the central tabulation facility. I know the state keeps throwing curveballs at us But absentee have always Just to say these are three places that this can happen, right? Yeah, so just remove just remove the phrase for absentee ballots. Yeah, and then um Where it says let me see instead the ballots and the cast vote records produced by the tabulators um Let's see will be transported to a central location. I was gonna say something like um on memory unmemory cars will be transported Because cvr's most people may not know that they're actually software files This is our first time talking about them Yeah, and actually are the ballots required to be transferred to the central location? Well, they do anyway, but Alex should come back to the town hall and town clerk board of registrars Yeah Which might not be wherever. I mean, which will probably be where we have it set up, but it might not be And that I mean, that's not something to that's not probably the clarification here We're just really trying to clarify what's happening with the cast vote records. So yeah, so So what I was gonna I propose is and the memory cards with the cast vote records will be um That are produced by the tabulators will be transported something. That's fine. That's accurate. Yeah So let's turn in the in the technical section. Do we refer to them as memory sticks? Uh usb sticks memory stick a usb stick is a memory stick. So it doesn't really matter Well, use the same term jesse if you remember what you've got that's what I was suggesting um Sure, you can say usb stick I mean a usb stick is just a memory stick that uses a usb interface I think we should just say a memory stick then Yeah, does that work? That's fine. It works. Sure. Thank you um, and then Oh, I just said calculate right above that. I'm sorry two lines down in section three three calculating the results for the Multi-winner contest rather than the other contests and then you don't need for Multi-winner elections right after that I'm saying the results can be released on election night in most cases. Um, just so you know, we never release results as official anyway, it's always unofficial Good point. Oh, yeah So do we want to add unofficial results? Yeah, maybe it may still be released So section four Um, can you go back up to 3.4 for one quick question? Thanks, so for preliminaries, um I just thought maybe we delete the bit about keeping the ballot length and layout reasonable because I don't know I just seems to me that would be a crazy reason to run primaries for preliminaries All right, so we're trying to specify under what Then under what conditions would the number of candidates be considered too large that we thought we need to justify that Uh, it's a question for I think the second part has it if there's more than four candidates Or double number of seats is what we've done in the past, but I don't that's a suit question We only ran one preliminary based on the new charter. We've never run preliminary preliminaries before that Right, and that was based on number of candidates, right? Yep Yeah Right, so Yeah, thank you Number one ballot one year for precinct eight and they're being um something like 21 candidates for in eight eight seats Yeah, I love my precinct. Yeah All went on that ballot They did Okay Yep All right um And here the 25 percent to be elected I understand that's a threshold based on the number of candidates, but we've never explained that So maybe we just change that to be number needed to be elected Or discover the 25 percent if that makes sense You're talking about the graphic the graphic. Yeah, right where your cursor is Jesse do you have the ability to change that or is this a already pre-cooked graphic? No, it's pre-cooked, but I can just change it. Okay, just change. Yeah My point is just that we have never explained our our threshold Formulas and until the next page and sure So I would change that to just the word threshold I'll just change, uh, you know, I'll instead of 25 percent. I'll just put a number sign Yeah, number needed to be elected I like your graphic, by the way Uh, it's not mine. I stole it I like just your theft There you go So I had some wording changes and that um, yeah The paragraph above Did you do that? Did you want to go first? Hit it Um All right. Well, I thought that um where it says the key process in multi-winner rcv is embers reduced for local elections I want to switch the order. Um, I want to say the transferring of surplus votes Before we talk about the elimination of votes Eliminating candidates because that is the order that we're going to do it, right? We're going to Likely be trans. I mean if there are surplus votes, we transfer those before we eliminate candidates Oh, correct Yeah, yeah, I mean there are but there are in surplus votes if you haven't met the threshold so It shouldn't happen in either order It just depends how that's true, but the graphic that we have Has surplus votes so then my next sentence was going to be I think we should explain We should give talk about the graphic and say something like For example in the graphic below the first step would be to redistribute the eight surplus votes of candidate a to other candidates Like I think having the graphic is great, but I think that we need to Take That means My concern with flipping the order is that the description of surplus run so long that then Putting the very short and the preliminary candidates will be a little confusing That's why I ordered it the way I did Yeah, I figured that but I don't know. I I don't care that much about that particular point. I just Let's maybe insert. So then what was the the sentence you wanted to insert? Oh, I wanted to say something like this may need rewarding. For example, in the graphic below the first or the, yeah, in the graphic below the first step would be to redistribute the eight surplus votes of candidate a to other candidates. Depending on the results of that distribution, the next step might be to eliminate the candidate with the fewest votes and redistribute their votes. I can if you'd like. I can't. Tonya I just emailed you update updated example. Super. Super. Okay. I thought I just put that in the Q&A but I don't know if it actually made it to anybody besides Andy. I asked it to get everybody but hey, what can I say. It's in the answered. Yeah, yeah, it's an answered right. Thank you, John. Answered. Not seeing that button. If you go to Q&A, you should be able to see the answers in a second tab. You may not be able to grab it. Thank you instead of. No, there's no steps do we want to refer to rounds. Oh, you're right. We do want to say rounds. Absolutely. Instead of step you mean. In the first round we would run round one. I would then take that last sentence right where your cursor is this restrict redistribution is necessary and put it below the graphic. And then you can leads right into the next paragraph you can say it's necessary. However, it turns out to be complicated. Andy's pointing out that the redistributed votes might also be enough to push another candidate over the threshold. Yeah, but I think Tonya's sentence acknowledges that. Yeah, I don't think we have to change it. I was just pointing it out. Yeah. And he also pointed out that digital storage device might be better than memory stick. They're the same thing. Yes. Okay. I don't want to. Word Smith too much. Okay. We need to keep moving. So we're for now. Real man page 13 of 51. Okay. If you have any small changes that you don't think the group needs to discuss send those to me in a, a marked up document. I just wanted to make sure that things were really clarified. We can be together. If it's just minor things to send those to me in a marked up document. Okay. So I don't know if anyone else printed this out, but the threshold formula maybe because of the brackets did not print it just went vertical down the page. So I don't know if it's. Not the word document, but I printed this out and the threshold to win formula did not print it. Just put a whole lot of graphics down the page. So it is a PDF so things couldn't be. Yeah. Okay, so just heads up on that one. Hopefully all pretty well. In language. We've already been over this a couple of times. We just maybe wanted to say in our recommendations refer to the fact that we specify it in a special act. Just to alert them that we have baked that in. Right. Section five. Right. So not hearing any concerns about section five, which I think we've also been over quite a bit. So what are some of the areas I believe where we want to insert a few words about tie breakers. So what did we want to say about tie breakers. Specifically that we need one that we need a method of tie breakers because, you know, we cannot afford to have a special election. Anytime there's a tie during one of the rounds of voting. Since the round Victor is not actually indicative of an election winner. And that. And also that we recommend using a method that a tie breaking method that's based on the number of first ranked votes that candidate has gotten in previous rounds right. So is that pretty much all you want to say about to specify that. About basing it on who is ahead in the previous round in terms of votes. It's basically going to boil down to whatever options available in the software right. Let me Google that I think the different rank choice voting sites have some good language describing. Yeah, I can send that in. And then essentially do a, you know, accept all changes and send out to everyone a clean document and you can insert to comment on this section. So I'll, I'll look up good language for that in enough that section. Okay. That sounds great. Sounds great. Now, actually seven. So this is another just brief one just really trying to highlight what's needed to be done in terms of getting some things approved. You can kill the last paragraph. Get rid of that. The last sentence in the second section approval of the special act that seems like a great thing to say but I'm wasn't quite sure why it was placed there. It's not like it should be the before the before the voting machine. Either either before voting machine or after special act at the end of the special act. I don't know which which part are you suggesting moving name that understanding. So the way it says approval of the special act could be contingent on the elections division being satisfied. I didn't understand why it was there. Like if that didn't feel like it was part of the voting machine certification. It's that added sentence at the end of the paragraph with voting machine certification. Oh, I guess that's why I'm not seeing it's blue. Oh yeah. So I just I like the idea I just didn't think that it belonged under that. So just move it. Maybe just to bear something. Well, I think there should go in the special act section. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, I see right there. You also have to make it active voice but I'll mark that up. Good. For Peggy. Okay, thank you that's all. Anything else in section seven. Now section eight. I had no comments. I think the only thing I would add is that it's, it's a several month plan. I mean they started in the spring. For the fall elections. And so it's, you know, something that the town need our town needs to keep in mind if they want to implement it this fall. Next fall. So where did you want to put that? I would say for conversion. Let's see. I don't miss. I know you could put it after the first sentence after the conversion, but just say keep in mind that the implement implementation plan is a several month plan and it's not, you know, so requires significant lead time. That's a good place to put it. It will be buried in the middle. We want to actually just move it to the summary just to make sure it's really noticeable. Well, it goes in the summer if it's in the body as well. So you could do both. But I do think that to me is one of the most important points is that it's a big plan. Yeah. Okay, so right here. So say your sentence. I forgot it. No, Peggy hit it. It is important to note that it's important to note that note that it will require several months preparation. And the rollout. You know, we'll take several months, maybe it's the right way. The planning a rollout will take several months like that. I said, I would just say the planning and rollout will may require several months planning and rollout planning and rollout. Okay, we move on to nine. Just see where there's some things that you wanted to bring up. Okay. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but things you want to bring to our attention. Jesse's still here. Oh, sorry, I was muted. I was, I was saying that. Yeah, I answered. I re-answered some of the comments that were here. I don't know if I just didn't have the most updated copy but I had lost some of the changes, I guess. But one note for everybody is that something that Jeff Sylvester said the other day sort of triggered an additional question in me and through a series of follow up emails I found out that if you use the image cast precinct, you are required to purchase and use the results tally and reporting software. You know, so he had never mentioned that before. I don't know if he thought it was assumed or whatnot but when I asked him like okay well what format do you does the tabulators export the results in and he says well it's a proprietary format that only the RTR can read and I said okay well what if we don't want to use the RTR and he said well then you use the RTR to collate the data and export it into a more open format like the Casper records. And I was like oh okay so that means we have to buy it. However, he also asked as a follow up since they have now negotiated with East Hampton in terms of pricing on stuff for a pricing list which he provided me. It was also or rather it was it looked like a copy of a physical letter that had been provided to the town so I think Susan might have already gotten a chance to look at that is that the case. No, you mean a recent. Yeah. No, not at all. Okay, so this actually is a quote to the town of Amherst so I forwarded to Tanya and she can. Yeah, forward that to you. But basically the RCV or the RTR is like I think 800 bucks a year. I don't know, obviously what the town finances are but that seems like a drop in the bucket compared to a lot of stuff. And it's certainly much cheaper than it would cost to you know higher it to manage and modify the universal tabulator so I don't think it's a problem. What's when people referred to the democracy suite is that another name for what you're talking about or that's another like option on top of what you're talking about the democracy suite is what they use to describe a suite of tools which includes the RTR, but also includes other stuff. So the most recognizable one to this committee would be the software used to design the ballots. So, we're only concerned with RTR, unless the town design decides to do all their own design stuff but they've hired LHS to do that for them in the past. So I, yes. Yeah, so the quote is for 11. I don't know why he put 11 because we still do it by precinct. We actually we have 11 precincts right. No, 10. Yeah, that's what I thought we just have 10. So, this town hall. Oh, that's why it's 11. Okay. So he quoted for 11 machines and that would be $62,700. And then the RTR bundle, which has a one time purchase price of $8,000 and then an annual license of $800. So that's that quote. But anyways, in terms of this document, I sent changes to Tanya, we can add them right now, which is just indicating in this section that if you're getting image cast, you are also getting RTR. And unless there's a really compelling reason that we want to use the universal tabulator or something else, we might as well just go with that. There's an interest of time unless anybody had questions. I won't make those changes now I'll just go and refer to Jesse's document and update this accordingly. Sounds good. Okay. And to put a positive spin on that. I actually think that having the data that's exported from the tabulators be encrypted in such a way that only the RTR can read it is a beneficial security measure. Anything else anyone wanted to point out with this section. I didn't have anything written down and my brain is pretty much mush at this point so. Yeah, we're pretty much almost there's when one last substance in. Let's take a look at that so I updated this. I'm going to be remarks are through a final section. We're essentially will sign, sign off the end of that and then it's all the different tendencies, which I don't think we need to take time to go. During our meeting again send me if you want any changes to those send them to me is Mark us. I have a colleague. On as the appendices go I have a couple changes which I will send to you but I also felt like the order of them was wrong. So I don't know if the other people care about this but felt to me like they should somewhat mimic the order of the report, just in case someone decides to pick up the appendices and sort of read that they jump, they jump around. Well that's because they just were added ad hoc is, is we. Right. Okay, so yeah, so I haven't, I haven't ordered I can send that to you. In any of the appendix numbering other than appendix one because I think the special act should be first and foremost. Yeah, making anything else so I'm happy to change that. Great. Maybe minor thing is that you've listed our names in the committee and you didn't list Rob's name. He's not currently on the committee but he somehow be included. Yeah. If you would like to sign the letter or not. His name on there without his permission. You could also put it in a separate category like prior members or whatever. I don't know. Do I go on there I know I'm a, it was said the town clerk is but I have no idea. I'm sure. Yeah. But should we just mark like, I don't even know. I mean, technically arbitrage both. So are you even ex officio. It's hard to word it. I think how we should stick with how the words it for when it originally formed a committee. I'll just say town clerk or acting. What are you officially. Yeah, I'm acting. You certainly act like a town clerk. I love that title. It's great. All right. Thanks for thinking. I feel the last sentence of the first paragraph now. Another option. Since Rob can't, we vote to approve this. We could thank him for his assistance. Let's do that. Yeah. Where would that be most natural. Maybe just add it into the second sentence of the last paragraph. So that they won't understand the context. Maybe we should say, and we thank former commission member. His name is actually Carol, but he does go by Rob. Yeah. Good. Carol spilled right. I think so. Yeah. I have some minor copy edits on this section to it. I'll send to you. Name here. Tony, you've put in so much work. This is really wonderful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you again. How much time you have and we'll be putting into this. Yeah. I have a very large accumulated batch of rating, which I keep putting off. But I rather great or edit the reports. Lucky us. Grading must be really miserable. Yeah. Well. I ran my courses as project based this semester, which is great for the students and really fun when you're doing it. But now I have. Project reports to grade. So I'm just like, uh. You should just do what my friends do. They put a different letter on every step going down their stairs. And then they toss the papers down and see where they land. Surprisingly accurate results. Just going to sit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you say it's a great inflation, you just stamp everything with an A. That's right. You know, it's God. Done. So I have a potentially substantive change to one of the appendices. Okay. Do we have time to just run that by quick. Just a, just a quick note. We do need to do public comment. Oh. Okay. Thought we had already. Wiggum. Let's see, where is it? I will find it in. Just a sec. Must be in the way of method. And it's nine. Yes. Yes. So the basic starting on page 48, the basic version of Wiggum using four digit precision and batch elimination. I just would have found it much easier to follow this. If section D, which is the general procedures came first. So, because we refer, so for example, in. After you initialize the election in section A. Step three, it relates to D. Point three. It's entirely unclear what that means. Until you get to part D. So I just thought to me, it's much more reasonable to put the general procedures first. And then to start with the initialize the election. The. The general procedures. And then you can start with the general procedures. And then you can start with the general procedures. And then you can start with the general procedures. Um, we'll discover Neng and so on. Yep. I think it was just that way. Cause that's the way they had it in the. The Scottish explanation. But yeah, I. Yeah, I figured it was just pulled from there. And maybe there was a reason for that, but I didn't, I found it not very reasonable. I. No sense. I will, I will boot that up. That's easy. Great. We'll get to that. We'll, we'll get to that. If you have any other questions, please. Updates tonight, send you out a clean coffee. And if you could, you know, whichever version of it, you want to mark your, your. Last minute comments on, um, I will figure it out and get them all transferred. Uh, but send them to me by noon at the latest tomorrow. Um, anything else before I move on to just check if there's with us? How do we tell if somebody wants to make a comment? They would put it in the Q&A. Yeah. Yeah. Any further comments? Put them in the Q&A for us. Nope. Yep. And Andy's the only one still here. Well, he was the only one over here. So Marathon, it's a marathon to sit here. He's in Florida at the beach, whatever. All right. So anything else for we adjourn? This is our last meeting together, and I'm sure we'll see each other again in front of Town Council or something. But this is our last meeting with all of you. Yeah, I just want to say this was a great commission. I really appreciated working with each and every one of you. And thank you all and thank you, Tanya, for all the work you've put in, particularly these last few weeks. Absolutely. I mirror that sentiment. Great work. Yeah. Next thing you know, they're gonna, they're gonna recommission us to then implement. This is such good work. Come on back. Oh, I'm sure Paul will try and sucker some of us back into another committee. Oh, yeah. All right. Well, is that it for today? Yeah, I think, I think we're, we're pretty, pretty exhausted at this point. So I moved to adjourn. So moved. Thanks, everyone. Everyone have a great day. Bye. Bye. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Sue. It all worked. We're good. I know it did work. That's, it's good to know. It was very easy to call in too. It wasn't hard at all. Oh, good. Yeah, you just dial the number you put in the meeting ID code. And that was it. Yeah. And thank you so much for all your hard work. Really, you did a lot of work. And I mean, you know, good guidance to the group. You were, you were perfect choice for chair, I think. Thank you. It's been a learning experience. It's been good. It has. It's going to be interesting to see how it moves forward now from this point. It's going to be a learning experience. If it does finally pass and we get the special legislation, it's going to be a huge learning experience for our office and for the public. So just, I just hope it goes smoothly. Yeah. I'm going to stop recording because we're done here. Where is that button? All right. You can just send me the timeline once you have it. I think