 So the first thing is to review and approve the agenda. I have one extra thing to add to the agenda, which is was suggested to me that we put an item on to nominate representative to the school resource officer committee from the council. And so we'll do that. Towards the end, since that's going to be one of us, I think we can probably put it on just before the council reports so that'll be item 16 or so, or 16 and a half. And as that I just want to note that super interesting we're going to do the appointments before we do the consent agenda. And I think that's great. So, anyway, it's just a little bit different than our normal order but fair enough. I think that's it any other suggestions or comments about the agenda. Me, me, I have. Go ahead, John and then Donna. Okay, the know why this always happens the liquor licenses trickle in over the year and I close a code but they always come in before I can get them on the agenda. It's very frustrating or after I'm getting them on the agenda sorry. So we've got first and third class and outside consumption licenses for approval from nutty steps and the third class license to approve from positive pie. And that's on the consent agenda. Yeah, or you're suggesting that we add it to the consent agenda. Yes, yes. Okay. Donna. Well actually I want to comment on john's because it was on my list to ask, what can we do, or do we have any empowerment to influence when license liquor license or do when we sign them. It just seems people are really lax, and they get away with it. And I wonder if there is any clear deadline so that we can group them better. There is a clear deadline and that's why historically they've come in over just a few weeks. I mean historically in the past really two months. But it's April 30 is the deadline. But the thing is that was post COVID. So they've been given a whole lot of slack and a whole lot of room for short term for not needing to to, you know renew in the normal time. And because of that they've been trickling in but usually you all start seeing them late January or February really, and then they stop cold at the end of April. And then you start seeing them again until the next year. So it's done unusual year just for that as far as whether can we alter the deadline knew that's DLC that state or stuck with that but usually it's more organized and I am hoping it'll get back to that next year. Yes, okay, thank you. It helps me understand it better. And I wanted to echo what Anne said about having the appointments early in the agenda. I think it's more considerate to potential candidates. So thank you. Who ever thought of that Cameron. Bill, whoever, thank you. Possibly Mary. Mary. We'll take full credit. We think it was a mistake, but we'll. Yeah, Mary was right on top of that. That's right. Yay, Mary. Any other comments about the agenda. Okay, so we will consider the agenda approved without objection. So the first item then is appointments to the historic preservation committee to that it. We have five. Yes, yes. No general business before those. Oh my goodness. I'm just getting ahead of myself. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So this is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on a topic that is otherwise not on our agenda. And so if you want to address the council during this time, or later if it is pertinent to a different topic, if you would say your name and where you live and try to keep your comments to about two minutes. That would be fabulous. So having said that, is there anyone who would like to address the council on a topic otherwise not on our agenda. We're free to either physically raise your hands or use the race dance function. And Cameron, are you seeing anyone. Amen. Okay. All right, so we are going to continue then. And now we're up to the appointments to the historic preservation committee. I believe there were five vacancies and three folks who applied and I thought I saw at least one of those folks on Eric Gilbertson is here. Yes. Eric, would you like to address the council and I know you've been on this committee, but tell us about your. Well, we're so it's yourselves and tells about your just in. We're also pleased and thank the console for getting the new design review rules done. And I think the next step is really providing set of materials to the public to help them through. Whatever issues they have with design review and I just want to continue that. Great, fabulous. And then I also see that Robert McCullough is here. Would you like to also introduce yourself and tell us about your interest in this committee. Oh, but I think you might be muted. Okay. Is that working out you hear me. Yes, yes, I've been on the commission for two years now. And simply want to continue doing what I've been doing. I'm also a former member of the design review committee. And I, it's time for me to get back involved with the city and its efforts to preserve historic resources. Great. Thank you. And I'm not sure if I see Brian Powell on the call, but if you are here, if you would unmute yourself and let us know. Okay. And so addressing the council. Do you have any questions for either Eric or. Okay. So is there. Actually, maybe what we can do is continue on to the other committees as well. And then you can make the appointments all at the same time. If that's agreeable to you, Donna, go ahead. It's very agreeable, but since you're going to move on, I just wanted to thank both Robert and Eric for your time served. The expertise applied to the city is much appreciated. Thank you for being willing to renew. Thanks, Donna. Yes, I agree. Okay. I didn't see Ben Cheney on, but I could be wrong. Ben, are you here? There were two seats open on the design review committee. And I think it's just been who is reapplying there. And then the hazard mitigation committee. That is not totally clear to me how many seats. Recommend limiting the number of folks who can participate. So anyway, I'm not sure how many seats we are aiming for in that committee, but we have one person who has applied. If you would like. Cameron, I apologize. So we have been asked to create the hazard mitigation plan committee. So what they'll do is they'll help us look at what hazards they believe are in our community to make sure that we're. Sort of capturing that from all angles, different perspectives. It helps us increase our flood. I'm sorry insurance payments back to us. We get some discounts off of that. There is no limit to this. We'd like that committee to sort of be sanctioned by all, and then we can start advertising a little more, but we'd really like to get that kicked off. Okay. And we have one person who is applied for that. Victoria Arthur is Victoria on. Okay. So council is there a motion. One question before motion on the design review, Ben Cheney had applied to be reappointed, but I noticed he was an alternate. And there's two positions open one is his alternate position and one is a sort of full board member position on the design review committee. I would simply ask since he's not here if anyone has heard as to a preference, because absent a preference, I would actually think it would make sense given his length of service on there to bump him up from an alternate to a full board member instead. That's a good question done. I agree with you Dan. I think we should do it. He's not here and he can always let us know and we have to do a kind of different appointment for him, but I think it would be great to put him on as a full member. Okay. It's a danger of not attending a meeting and getting appointed to a committee. I'm checking on that now while we speak. Okay. I'll make a motion I'll be happy to make a motion for if, if Jack's checking on that, I'll make a motion for the other appointments which is, which would be to reappoint Robert McCullough and Eric Gilbertson to the Historic Preservation Committee and to appoint Victoria Arthur to the hazard mitigation plan committee. Yeah, there's a third person for the historic preservation to Mr. I'm sorry. And, and I'll amend my motion to include Brian Powell to be reappointed to the Historic Preservation Committee as well. And I would ask you to add Ben Cheney to the design review. I mean, Yeah, Jack, did you hear him. Not yet. So I think we just go ahead. Okay, so I'll add to that motion to appoint Ben Cheney to a full position on the design review committee. And I'll second it. Okay. And Lauren. So just a little unclear from Cameron. Do we have to actually create that hazard mitigation committee before we appoint people to it or is just the act of appointing someone to a committee, essentially creating it. I leave that to you. You know it does not currently exist. If you speak it into existence that works for me. I'm going to amend the motion to say be here by create and appoint Victoria Arthur to the, whatever it called. That's what you meant. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think existentially speaking we're in a matter of not having an a priori committee. So it comes into being by virtue of its existence. Okay, so there's been a motion and a second. Is there any further discussion? Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. And oppose. Okay. Thank you. Eric and Robert again for your beer service. We're so grateful. And thank you. Yeah. I will have a good rest of your evening. Thanks. Thanks for pushing it up on the agenda. That was very considerate. No problem. Thank you. All right. So we are up to the consent agenda. At this point. And with the extra, potentially with the extra liquor licenses that John Odom mentioned. Is there a motion. Donna. Well, I would like to pull item A. For discussion from the consent agenda. And I'm sorry I didn't give you advance notice. That's okay. Is there a motion regarding the rest of the consent agenda minus A. I move that we approve the consent agenda as amended. I'll second. And that, that does not include item A. Is that correct, Jack? Correct. That's what I was taking that as one of the amendments. Great. All right. There's been a motion and a second. All in favor of please say aye. Aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay. So that. The rest of the consent agenda passes. One question would be, do we take up item A now? Or do we take it up later? Donna, is it a quick question? Or do you think it's going to. No, I have my. Four parts. So yeah, it's not a quick question. Okay. So, um, maybe that's something we can hold to the end. Is that okay? Sure. Okay. So I'm just going to make a note to myself that we revisit that. Probably before. We. Or yeah, before we do the, um, nomination to the SRO committee. Okay. Uh, so just taking a quick look here. I'm wondering how many folks are on for the. Finances versus the winter parking ban. Um, I sort of feel like we should do the winter parking ban first and then go right into the budget. I just want to make sure that we have a. Um, but I do know there's some folks on the call for the. Uh, the winter parking discussion. So if it's okay with everyone, I'm going to move the parking discussion to next and then we'll go into the budget or the. Finances and whatnot. Um, Okay. So from there, uh, so this is, I'm going to officially open the public hearing. This is the second public hearing on, um, On an adjustment to the winter parking. Regulations. And so for this, I'm going to turn it over to Zach and then we'll go into the budget or the finances and whatnot. Um, Okay. So. From there. Uh, so this is, I'm going to officially open the public hearing. This is the second public hearing on. So I'm going to turn it over to Zach and Donna. Well, good evening. Oh, sorry. Good evening. We're working on this. Okay. Um, so, uh, Zach's here with me, but I'm going to take the first part of this and recap what's happened. Um, since our last conversation. Um, we have received no comments. That isn't just no negative comments. Um, we have received a few positive, um, conversations, but for the most part, no one has offered any, um, Conversations that indicate that people are upset or they, um, they're upset or they're upset. Um, we have received a few questions to clarify things and all of those, um, answers have been received well. Um, in addition to that. We, um, have created a sample sign. To show you it's kind of hard to do, um, up and down here, but, um, so these are the signs. We're working on them. Um, they will, um, be installed on all the streets so that, um, the neighborhoods know what is happening. If this goes forward, um, it meets all the sign conventions that were held accountable to. Um, And, uh, so that is, um, one example of work that will be used in the future to keep, um, people understanding what's supposed to be happening on every street. Um, we've added tables, uh, to the information that's been posted on the city's website so that people can find their way there. They can find also, um, a map of the entire area and it indicates, um, the different scenarios and they can look up their street and their number and understand what might be, um, a situation for them. Um, we have, um, as I mentioned, a map for public viewing on the city's website. Um, um, that is very detailed. We've developed a winter parking flyer. I'm going to show you this here. We emailed it to all of you, uh, city counselors late this afternoon. I spoke with all the downtown merchants or the majority of them who were open, um, during the day that we were, uh, knocking on doors, many of them, even those who don't typically post, um, general information agreed to post it so that anybody coming into their store or business would have some awareness of what's happening, um, in terms of conversation for tonight. Um, the one, um, I guess the, um, specifically the questions from residents came, um, about four, three different streets only, lower Elm Street, Berry Street and Court Street. Um, and each of those have, um, unique aspects, um, regarding parking. So that wasn't, um, that wasn't a surprise to us that we heard from those folks. Um, let's see. Um, the one, anything else that I'm missing? Zach. Okay. Um, so I think we've been doing really good job. We have contacted can neighborhoods. We've sent information to the schools. Um, we haven't, um, had any additional distribution through those venues yet, but we'll be working with schools and the can neighborhood. Um, once a decision is made. Um, the, um, parking signs will all, I'm sorry, I misspoke earlier. Um, thanks, Zach. Um, Um, the, in order to be in compliance with the standards for sign, um, we will have to have all the signs be, um, done in green. We had originally thought we'd do, uh, one side in blue and the other side in green. So my mistake, I didn't realize we had to be held to that standard. Um, So I am. Um, Um, situations that we wanted to share with you before we get into the details here. I'm not going to turn this over to Zach. Um, so, uh, just to reiterate on what Donna was saying, we did look at trying to make the signs, uh, green and blue, um, with the information, uh, with the recording information would be to the signs. Um, but it's not the options were read, uh, which is a, um, which is permitted. Uh, so, um, we had, we decided to go with the green sign because it was more intuitive, um, having a positive type of comment and the affirmative and rather than a negative comment, uh, no parking here versus parking is allowed here. Um, so we went back and forth for a while and that was the sign that, uh, we ended up with. And, um, we feel that it's fairly clear, uh, simple. Um, we did change the, I think the last time we spoke, we had, um, from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. as the, the window, um, at which they could begin switching over. We bumped that back to midnight again so that it was easier, uh, to get that point across to people. Um, we were having a hard time with how do you switch over the night of, on a sign and make it clear for everyone. Um, so we, we tried to simplify it a little bit, um, on that side. Um, I think the one other biggest change, uh, that we presented from, um, the first reading till now is that in the downtown district, we have proposed, um, no parking, um, after the hours of midnight. So from midnight till 7 a.m., um, we're proposing no parking, uh, during that timeframe, which will align with our work crews being able to get in there and clear, uh, the streets prior to the beginning, prior to commuters coming back into the downtown, uh, zone. Um, we, I do want to mention that we added a table five, which is unclassified. Um, but it's really right now, it's completely empty. Um, but it's there so that if we have specific anomalies that we need to address, uh, that we can, can do that accordingly, we can take it and put it from one of the tables and put it into, uh, that other table. Um, I guess with that being said, I will open it up for any questions. And if you guys need to want to look at the map or whatever you guys want, then we can discuss. Uh, so just, just to jump in there. Now I'm thinking, um, can I ask you about that table five, the unclassified thing? Like what's an example of the kind of street, not street specifically to the kind of situation that might take you back to that table? Yeah. The one that comes like foremost to the front of my mind is Elm Street between court and spring. Right now we, we went forward and we put that as odd only. So on odd days, they'll be at the park in that section on even days, they would have to find a nearby, uh, parking. Um, which is on court, court and Elm are reciprocating days. So based on the counts that we did, we should have plenty of ability to offset both of those. Um, but I do anticipate that there may, we may get some questions about, um, being able to provide parking for those units right along the street there. Um, but I do want to, uh, explain to everyone that that section of street is one of the most difficult sections for us. Uh, we can never really clear it because people are always parked there. Um, so it's, it's one of these things that we've tried to accommodate, um, both ends, uh, both operational and the residents. Um, but. You know, if it, if it is a problem, we have the ability to address it in kind of a, a different manner. Um, another instance may be over by on Luma street over by the schools. Um, I think that part of the school's proposal was giving two spots to, um, residents. So we may need to do something a little bit different there. Um, and that's really why that table is created, um, everything that can't be captured. And we tried to group everything into the four other categories as much as possible. Um, and then if we need to address them in a different manner, we can. So just to, um, have a couple of other questions. Um, so one is how many tickets do you have? Um, how many tickets roughly, um, would you say the city ended up issuing last year? If you have to ballpark it. I can't even guess on that one. I would have to ask, um, PD about their actual amount of tickets. I mean, it's possible that Cameron might know, um, because she dealt with more of the, uh, more of the amount of tickets. Um, I don't know if you have any idea about the amount of tickets. I don't. I only heard from the folks who were contesting theirs. Okay. We'll get that data for you. Okay. That would be, I think it would be good to know. And, um, but it would be safe to say that it is substantial. Yeah. Okay. Um, I think that's where we have problems. We deal with a lot of tickets and a lot of, um, you know, reoccurring repeat offenders, um, trying to actually change the behavior has been quite difficult. Um, okay. Um, I have some other questions, but I'm going to hang on to them from now. Um, I think there were some other hands. Um, I don't know if you have any comments or questions. I'm going to go to Dan Jack and then, um, Heather, did you want to, um, did you have comments or questions? Okay. So we'll go to Dan Jack and then Heather. Sure. Um, I have a couple of questions, but really the first one on the signs. Will there be any signs for the streets where. Parking is only allowed on one side. Um, you know, so like on Liberty street, for example, I know that, you know, you're only allowed to park on the odd side normally, and there's no parking signs, but how, how will people, how will, will there be any signage to indicate. For those streets where you're, you're implementing that, that may not have no parking signs already existing. So the signs will be placed where parking is, is allowed. So like on Liberty street, the parking is kind of staggered. So that first piece that you're talking about, you're allowed to park a few spots on the one side of the road. I believe it's the odd side of the road. Um, and then the even section doesn't start to a little bit further down. Um, so the sign would begin on both sides of the street. Um, where you're allowed to park. So on the odd side, the sign would be placed where you can begin parking. And then on the even side, um, it will be the same. Um, so it'll be signed where you're allowed to start parking. Uh, and the tables, the reason why we didn't list each street as an alternating is because not every street starts and stops at the same spot, which is why we separated the two tables out to even parking zones and odd parking zones instead of alternating parking streets. Um, because it was getting too difficult to make it clean and clear about where you start and stop each of those zones. Um, so that's what we did. Um, So just so I understand. So then basically if someone's parking on going to park on a street, they would look for one of these signs that would indicate that they could park there. Yes. Based on a calendar day. And if there wasn't a sign there, it would indicate that they couldn't park in that particular area. Correct. Um, and. So the one thing that we may need to have that I haven't, I hadn't quite wrapped my head around is that we may need to add a second sign to that. And that says like, and odd parking here. Of some sorts. Okay. Okay. Uh, Jack and then Heather. And then is that bill? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we may need to add a second sign to that and that says like, and odd parking here. Of some sorts. Okay. Okay. Uh, Jack and then Heather and then is that bill? Yeah. Okay. So, and so bill will be after Heather. Okay. Go ahead. Thanks. I don't know what, what it says about me that, uh, when Donna was describing these different color signs, my first thought was, hmm, does that comply with the manual on uniform traffic control devices? But, uh, Following up on what Dan said, um, I'm just wondering about what the most, uh, intuitive sign distribution is, especially for someone who's not familiar with the area. Usually if you, if you come to a street and you're looking for a place to park and you, uh, You look for the signs on the side of the street where you're looking to park. And if it doesn't, if you don't find a sign that says no parking, you're, you can assume that you probably are allowed to park there. Now, this is kind of doing the opposite. And so I'm just wondering if this is the best way to do it. And if it's likely to be more confusing to, uh, To drivers, I think this probably isn't in the ordinance itself, but I do think it might be worth more consideration. I don't know what you think about that. So the plan is, um, to really put them at every intersection. So you say you're coming down Liberty street return, take a right off the main street on delivery. Um, you would have odd side parking begins here and you, you're traveling down towards Loomis. You'd hit St. Paul street. And then you'd have another sign at the intersection, uh, Right after the intersection of St. Paul to, so that if the motorists turned right onto Liberty street, that they would know that they could park in that zone again. Um, so it's going to be a lot of signage, um, as there's quite a bit of signage out there now. Um, so some signs will be taken down and new ones will have to be put on. Um, but that is one example that at intersections, we will have to have signs so that people know, um, because if they, if they get onto the street mid block, there's no way for them to determine whether or not they're, they're allowed to park there. Okay. Um, the, the second question that occurred to me related to that, uh, that block on Elm street between court and spring street. Um, I know from representing people who live in those, in those apartments that there's, uh, And just from observation that there are probably seems like there's a higher number than usual of, of people with disabilities who probably park with, uh, handicap parking, uh, tags. And, uh, One is just it may be a hardship for them to park on court street and walk down or use a, use a wheelchair or scooter to get down. But two is, um, Will does their, uh, Handicap parking tag allow them to park on a space like that where we told them it's prohibited because of, uh, The side of the street. I wouldn't think that a handicap parking tag would allow you to park in a prohibited zone. Um, But the reason why I mentioned Elm street was because it's one of the ones that we may have to kind of have a different plan around. Um, I just, you know, I looked at trying to fit trying to stagger alternating zones. Um, but there's the yellow line. So you'd have to take away the yellow line in order to really shift cars there. Um, One other thought is that maybe we have, um, Reach out to the people that are in that, That block in that unit and try to come up with a different game plan for maintenance. Um, The way that it's always been hasn't worked. So we need to do something different. Um, and that's, This is why we have that table because I assume that there's going, but there may be a few of these. Anomalies that we need to kind of address outside of, um, All of the other streets. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Heather. Hi, this is Heather Corey. Um, I'm sorry. Um, I still think this is a really good plan for the city. I think snow removal is really important. And I think it gives some flex more flexibility for residents. Um, Zach, I was looking at the tables and at the last meeting, I was looking at the tables. I think there was some flexibility in the tables. Um, I think it's a little bit more flexibility between college and Saban would open up on the odd days, but I didn't see it listed on the table. Hold on one second. I do have the tables printed in front of me. So. Just give me one minute. During this roll. Can this just be one of her. Can I ask what page in the packet? The maps are included in tonight's packet. Uh, the map is on the city website, Steve. Um, I don't know if you're looking at that. Maybe, um, Unless you're, unless you're right there. The same, maybe Bill can ask his question. So, um, Heather, I think that there is an. An error in the table, which we will correct. Um, we did tell you last time that it would be, um, even parking, but from. Um, I'm not exactly sure why that's not correctly reflected in the table here, but we would make that change. I was going to make was. Didn't last year, wasn't there. Like, um, you know, one of the lit written signs on the corner of Maine and, um, 302 that stated winter parking ban was happening. Um, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I'm thinking of Burlington, but that might be another thought just to give, um, people from out of town, a heads up that, um, pay attention to the signs on the street. So last year we had two of those signs. We rented one and we own one. Um, and they basically stayed out. And when we needed to issue a winter parking ban, it would be turned on. Um, so that's what we did. Um, this year we don't really have a designated use for them. Um, so we, we could deploy them and, um, help, you know, message, message that accordingly. Um, the location at which we used to, uh, put the sign though, um, it's going to compete with the way of finding signs. So we might have to find a new location for it, but we'll worry about that. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Um, I don't know that I heard, uh, or understood quite clearly that what's happening in the downtown. If you could go over that again. Okay. So in the downtown, um, and that includes state street, uh, beginning at Barry street, sorry, main street beginning at Barry to, uh, number 137 school street, a portion of Elm street from Langdon to court state street, Langdon and East state street. Basically everywhere there's a parking meter. Um, we will allow parking on both sides of the street on East state street, uh, where there's only meters on one side of the road. You'll be allowed to park in that zone every day, regardless of the calendar day. So basically in the downtown you're allowed to park as is until midnight at which point, um, you're allowed to park on both sides of the street. Um, so we ask that cars be off the street. Uh, so that, um, I wonder how that works because there are still businesses open. At midnight, right? I think that there are. There are bars open, right? So I think about two implications that you have people who are, um, who are not allowed to park on both sides of the street. Um, and so I would, I would, I would, I would think that it might make sense to wait until, I don't know, a half hour after all the establishments are closed to make that. And then I would also, I, I look at the unintended consequences of forcing people to drive after they've been sitting in a bar all night. Um, I think that you sometimes go through the town early in, in the morning and you see cars, um, that have been there and you think, Oh, that was probably a good choice. You know, um, so I don't know how you want to deal with that, but I do think about, uh, that when I think about what happens in our downtown and, and I, and I completely understand the need to clear it out too. So, uh, that's all that struck me on that. Um, and it's something that, uh, to be very honest and frank with you, it's something that we struggled with in terms of, um, going one way or another on, um, we had to, when, um, I talked, I spoke with Donna earlier this week, um, who had a conversation with a bill and they, what we were told is just, we need to put something forward and we need to see, um, we need to get a gauge on whether how that will work. Um, so we had a discussion operationally. We looked at the parking council overnight and this is what we decided to move forward with. The other option in the downtown would be to move to an alternating, uh, format as we are doing throughout the rest of the city between the hours of 12 and 7am. Um, not as good from an operational standpoint. Um, but I can understand if that is the direction that, um, we wish to proceed. There were a couple of thoughts on that too. Um, one is, you know, that's, it's an impact on the nights that there's real storm, right? The nights, the clouds aren't coming out. You know, it's less than an urgency. I mean, they're supposed to move at midnight, but presumably we can talk about how we're enforcing that. And the second thing is in, uh, last couple of years, we've had winter parking bans, which took effect at one. It is an hour later, but it was the same deal. I mean, some of the bars were open or two. And at one, you know, that's when it was tow time for us to come out. So it's on snow nights. It is an issue we've had to deal with. And I, I don't know what the solution is. I suppose if someone leaves their car there and gets it plowed in, but then, you know, that's not helping pedestrians and everybody else. So I, it's a great, we don't know the total right answer on this one. Yeah. Question. Um, Jane. Yeah, thanks. Um. A couple of things. First, um, uh, I appreciate, I appreciated Heather's thought and comment about the signs, the large, um, uh, traffic signs that Zach said, we owned one and rendered one as people come into town. But in my sense is if this is going to be effective, um, we can't rely on people who are coming into town who don't understand the parking situation to like be able to absorb that information from, you know, one of those signs as they're coming into town, I think there needs to be appropriate signage on the streets. So folks know where, um, where it's okay to park. Um, the other thing is, um, In fact, maybe you covered this, but I'm just looking for a little more clarity is around the situations where like Dan alluded to, there's only parking allowed on one side. How are we, you know, sometimes that's, you know, like lower liberty, that's one thing, but there are a number of spots up main street and, and throughout, um, throughout the city where that really can, um, at the end of the day, put, you know, require people to, because they can't just park on the other side of the street have to be somewhat distance away. So how are we going to communicate to those folks in those, I know it's a small percentage, but how can we communicate with those people so that they understand where it's safe to park and, and so that they understand, um, you know, what's going to mean for them on those certain nights in terms of getting to their car. Yeah. So, um, I naturally, where I would go with this is that maybe we should look at, um, developing a list of those very specific areas and areas that they could park without taking a full look at how many and exactly where those locations are. But I mean, I did just pull up the map and look at main street. Um, and yes, we are allowing for parking on Harrison avenue, which there wasn't. Um, I mean, you know, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I would certainly ask for parking on Harrison avenue, um, which there wasn't before in some other places, um, that are nearby. Um, it may be worth reaching out to them individually to kind of get that word across also. That's the reason why, um, if we get approval, the flyer will be key is so that we can start putting them on the cars for individuals and that they can have the opportunity to reach out to us so we can help solve, about where to park or accommodate accordingly. And just another real small thing to add to that. And it's just in terms of communication to folks is that we're encouraging folk, people who have off street parking, whether it's a garage or a driveway to take advantage of it, to not just park in front of their house on a night where it's okay because there may be folks nearby. I know it's a small thing, but just encouraging people to really use the off street parking when it's available to them because it could make a difference even though they may not see it, but it could make a difference to the neighbor around the corner or something like that. So I just think that that could be included in our communications. Yeah, and that's a really good point. I think, you know, a positive messaging about people who have driveways and have the ability to park in them is a good thing so that they can really reserve the spaces for the people that truly need to be able to park on the street. Connor, and then I wanna check to see if there's anyone who hasn't spoken yet to see if there's other comments or questions. Go ahead, Connor. I think we covered it last time, but as far as enforcement, are we looking at a little period like a week or two? Will we be writing warnings as opposed to actually writing tickets here just so people ease into this? So in a perfect world, we get approval tonight and then we start working with PD to get these flyers out. So then between, we have about a month in timeframe to help get that word out. I guess at that point, we could decide whether or not we want to issue tickets on November 15th, which was what has, how it's been worded so far. Or if we want to hold off until we issue a ticket until maybe December 1st. Mayor, you have two folks. You had two folks that had their hand raised for a while. Dan Groberg and Stan Brinkerhoff? Okay, great. We'll go in that order. Dan and then Stan. Two quick things. One, I think it was Heather that was talking about the sign by the River Street 302 roundabout and it's not one of the temporary light-up signs. There's actually a physical pole-mounted sign that still has the old winter parking information on it. So you're not imagining that, Heather. And this, I think that's all it has to say. Okay, thank you. We will have to remove those signs that have the information about the note winter parking ban, about the current winter parking ban as they come into town. There's one on Terrace Street. There's one on Berlin Hill. So we would have to take those down and replace them. Okay, thank you. Stan, go ahead. Hi, Stan Brinkerhoff. I live on Main Street in a section that would be impacted by the even parking pattern. So it's certainly a bit biased. And I've been watching the city council meetings for the last year and seeing some of the concerns around Sadie Avenue and fire trucks and such. But the documentation has been provided so far doesn't really provide a reason for this. And I guess I'm just a little confused in general, what's the impetus for this? There is some notes around simplifying the snowmobile and sidewalk clearing. But it seems to address a concern, which is how do we clean the streets with a strategy that instead of having a dozen or so parking ban days, we're very clean, you're easy to enforce. We basically take 135 days and already parking spots. This is compounded, you know, it's COVID. I don't commute to work anymore. So my vehicle is in front of my house. So it would be moved every day, simply for the sake of moving it. The timing of this is unfortunate. It's October, the folks I've reached out to in the past for winter parking are no longer offering off street commercial parking. They had a really bad run with COVID and folks staying home more often. And I've not been able to purchase off street parking this year. And I know this came up last winter. So I wish this was brought up during the summer and folks were brought in to kind of understand what it meant, right? Even looking through the list of streets, I mean, it's a three or four page list of streets and rules and complexity that one of the things the document states is that there'll be fewer tickets. And I struggled to understand how a couple of tickets on a few parking ban nights a year is going to compare to 135 days of possible ticket days. When we already know there's folks who don't want to comply with this or will need to put closer house and just take a ticket. It just seems, the timing seems interesting and the scope is unfortunate. Thank you. So, you and you would like me to address some of Stan's comments, okay. So first of all, Stan, we started this process probably a month and a half to two months ago. We, it's something that we had been talking about since the end of last winter. We had last year in particular and really ever since we've made the changes to this as needed winter ban that we currently have in place, we've really struggled with being able to maintain operational levels of service. And what that means is that there were a lot of times last year that we had to go out and manually post streets for no parking such as school and Loomis and you know, Court Street and Prospect because we could not clear, we didn't have any time to clear the street and it made it difficult for emergency vehicles to be able to still get down the road. So we're trying to meet in the middle. Obviously it was much easier from an operational standpoint when no one was parked on the street. But we understand that there is a huge need and many people really rely on being able to park on the street. So we know that there's not perfect solutions everywhere. We feel that this is a way that we can really try to accommodate and improve the level of service. With that also said, we are down staff and COVID is, it's a really difficult time this year. So being able to do things and provide a better level of service is really important for us. So it's kind of some of the reasons why we were looking at this. And I don't know, you had a few questions. I don't know if I answered all of them or if you want me to answer another one in particular. I'm not having to follow up. I mean, I certainly understand that the need to clear the roads or they need to be safe. There's places that are very difficult and I think roads that shouldn't allow parking that you today, certainly. And I appreciate that some roads are gonna be opened up. And again, I think I'm biased, given my situation. There is not a clear close alternative for me. It is quite a walk to the next available parking spot on Main Street outside of the parking ben. But it seems like there should be either a possibility of targeted, AD site cleaning or even daytime bends. I have no concern with saying I can't park on Main Street for a couple of days. It's very easy to work with. But when halfway through the winter, there's no snow on the ground. But we can't park here because of a policy. It's unfortunate. Stan, what is your address? It's 288, it's between Loomis and Jay. I would be happy to have a conversation with you outside of this meeting and we can look at what options there may be or other ways to help accommodate. That is the crux of the matter. I'm waiting to see what it's gonna be when you get a chance. Okay, good to know. Thank you. Sorry, was there any other follow-up there, Stan or Zach? I was just gonna say that is the crux of the issue that we've been dealing with for years. And up until four or five years ago, we had a full winter band on all streets all winter long with no alternate side. And of course that was excellent for DPW and terrible for a lot of residents. And so we went to the parking band which actually did not work particularly well. We had a lot of towed cars, a lot of tickets, a lot of places that didn't get plowed properly, a lot of misunderstandings now. But I hear it's Stan's point loud and clear, you know, 15 or 20 nights of winter versus 135. And I think what we're seeing is that the old system, the old desk system didn't work great for the residents. The most recent system didn't work well for getting the job done that we needed to get done and we're trying to find something in between. Okay. Thank you, Steven, go ahead. I want to second Stan's concern that Bill I think just referenced that the, this is not time sensitive, weather sensitive sufficiently in my, also keep in mind that one period is in non-pandemic era post to a huge number of legislators and lobbyists and advocates who come in and are used to and are totally oblivious to these changes that are about to happen. And our public outreach system doesn't even seem to recognize that problem. But can you imagine, you know, the legislature tried to convene and that entire thing being thrown upside down by this entirely new framework where no one who has traditionally for years been parking in the same places is allowed to park. So I don't have a quick solution. Maybe this should be a provisional trial run but to craft it as an ordinance that's going to take all the other necessarily Montpelier visitors, by surprise is short-sighted. I think this may be an opportune time to even be using Zoom technology to take this up with the Capital Complex Commission and the legislative leadership, possibly in January and basically iron this out. This is way too big a change to make haphazardly, I might, is the way it feels to me. I won't get into specific questions. I did go to the website and searched on parking and find, you know, table one with no table associated, I only get as a bunch of running pages. So without delving into years-long repeated complaints about the inadequacy of the website, I would ask that somebody email me the PDFs of the maps and the tables. Thanks. I can do that right now, Steve. Thank you. Thank you. And I think you bring up a good point about checking in about this. So I, if this is approved tonight, I'd love to just put it on our radars to circle back to it, perhaps next May, and talk about how it went. Just a little reflection and evaluation if that sounds good to folks. Yeah, go ahead, Zach. Just, Don and I had talked earlier that, you know, we would be willing to come back to council periodically throughout this winter if needed to kind of give status updates on how things are going, check-ins, problems, you know, what are we seeing? So if that's something that council wishes, we are okay with doing that. Okay. All right, so just to check, is there anyone who has not had an opportunity to comment yet that would like to? And Cameron, is there anyone whose hands raised who hasn't spoken yet? I do not see anyone. Okay, I would see, I saw a hand from Heather and then Bill, go ahead. I just had a thought that maybe, I understand a lot more people are home now and which means their car is also home with them, but maybe this isn't a bad winter to try this out because of the pandemic. I think people are already deterred about going out in the evening during the winter in Vermont. And I have a hard time imagining that we're gonna get a lot of out-of-state visitors this time of year during the pandemic. And I think that people, I know the bars will be open this winter, but I think people will be still fearful about going out in public. So perhaps the numbers of people actually out parking will be lower in the downtown area. And then I had just two questions, forgive me if you already said it, but at the last meeting you mentioned that there might be long-term parking for residents over by the rec pool. And A, I was wondering if there was another spot identified as well. And then the second question is, wouldn't there still be parking available in the lots behind the fire station and behind city hall? So yes, those parking lots will still be available as they are currently for overnight parking. So you still have that. We met with the rec department to look at the feasibility of allowing full-side drive. And they voiced some about long-term parking. They voiced some concern that we have quite a bit of people that utilize the North Branch Park and park on full-side drive. So that might deter people from actually getting outdoors to exercise. But the other brainstormed idea that we had was the dog river field, the gravel parking lot that's right there by the softball across from the public works facility. One, it's close to us so we can maintain it. We can clear the snow there. And two, it's close to the bike path that people were gonna walk. There's a lot of people that go out, well, right now take their dogs and walk down by the river and utilize that space. So that was kind of another thought that we would be able to allow what we'll call short-term parking because we don't want people leaving their car there all winter long, but for an extended period of time. Great, thank you. And Bill? Let's see, so I think I'd like to request that if we're only talking about an hour and we're trying to keep communications clear, it might make sense. And I'd like to request that it stay the same downtown. That if that's how it's always been, the only difference being that it's moved from one to midnight, that you actually leave it at one and then there's some clarity for those who are not familiar or visit the town or have visited and aren't there. How do you feel about that, Zach or Donna? Well, so in the downtown, well, first of all, as proposed, we talked about in the downtown not having parking after midnight. So there's kind of two different situations here. There is the on Main Street, on State Street, beginning at midnight, no parking, either side of the street, or there's the proposal at which people could park on using the alternating rule. So it's 1201, it's an even calendar day if they would need to be parked on the even side of the street or they would be subject to a decade. So there's kind of two different issues there. So I think, Bill, if I'm hearing you correctly, what you would prefer is at least to have the alternating rule in the downtown area. No, I don't wanna, if it's best to have it empty, it's have it empty. I thought that I understood that it was last year it started at one o'clock downtown and the downtown needed to be empty. So when a winter parking band was in effect, that started at one a.m. But what we were proposing is that in the downtown, beyond midnight, there wouldn't be parking. Right, so what I'm saying is you're basically saying you wanna be able to clear the streets anytime, any day, odd or even, depending throughout the city. If you want it to be downtown, you just make it the same as though you're on the, it was the same as last year during a winter parking band, right? After one. So that you could clear it last year during a winter parking band after one, just keep it at one. And the shopkeepers and people visiting, they'll all know that at one o'clock they need to get out of there. I don't wanna make a big deal out of it, it just seems like you're looking for ways to not have to communicate so many changes. And that's one that you could gonna have the turning point be the same time as before. So what if the, yeah, it'd just be a time change for the downtown. That really wouldn't be too bad. I mean, we did start out at 10 p.m. with the thought that if we wanted to do overnight clearing that we would be able to not, because normally when we have a winter parking band, we're all geared up, we have trucks ready, we're getting ready to go at 11 p.m. And it doesn't actually fully take an effect until one. So it's been a little bit of a backlog issue operationally that we're kind of waiting till the clock strikes one in order to get fully going. And then it's kind of a mad rush to get everything cleared up and cleaned by seven. So we started at 10 p.m. And then we realized that it was gonna be a little bit more difficult to get that word across. So that's really why we landed on midnight. Again, I'm not really opposed to moving to shifting it to one, but I guess I'm looking for some direction there. Toner, go ahead. Something in the executive order, which says that the bars of the closed by a certain time. I didn't think they were allowed to stay open till one right now. I mean, I did some research this week into trawlios and the last call was a 10, so. I thought I saw midnight too, Connor, for bars. Well, we can always amend it there. Okay, I'm just checking on it. Okay. Any other thoughts, questions, concerns? I guess I'll just also raise, I had thought that last time we talked about using stakes with signs on them to say no parking anytime for those one side only streets as a way to simplify. Like, no, actually you could park here all the time, except for when we stake it and then you can't. But apparently we're not going in that direction. Or like, is there any situation in which you would use those stakes that say no parking? So potentially if we had another issue somewhere else that to the point at which it's obstructing emergency access, we will buy order from the PD or the city manager, I can't remember which one, go out and put those stakes out. So if there was an issue, and that's really on any street, and it could be a street that has no parking on both sides all year round, maybe upper main street that just has got a ton of snow and emergency vehicles just can't pass. So we're trying to do away with those manual stakes, but I don't know that they will be, you may still see them around us. Okay, thank you. Donna. Well, I don't know if you want comment from council members. Yeah, it was fun. I really feel this is a way to go in that I think people forget the volume we had of cars being towed. We had a hard time getting towing companies to even want to bid on our service because every year they did, they ran out of storage. I mean, we were what, four or five years of doing this alert when the storm came and people still didn't catch on. And part of it is the weather is one thing you see out the window versus the forecast DPW is using. And the fact that if you don't see snow doesn't mean that some of the movable of ice and buildup don't need to be done. So I think it's much clearer to have alternating streets. And I think year round, I hear complaints about our streets not being swept well and not looking good on other seasons. So I would hope that this would help regulate staff and help our expectations to be more dependable. And yes, I think there'll be bumps and there'll be changes. But last year, I mean, for the last five years since the alert started, DPW has faithfully come back to us with updates. What's working, what's not working. And so I just expect that to continue. And it's not perfect, but I think it'll be an improvement. At least we'll know what it is every day. Thank you. Thank you for all your work on this. Thanks, Anand. And do we have any word yet as to what the provision is for bars closure? Well, the time that bars close. I couldn't figure out how to unmute myself, I apologize. I've been looking at the ACCD, the health website, the executive order and the safe restart. And I haven't been able to find a time limit yet on bars. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I haven't been able to find it yet. So stay tuned, I apologize. I think at the end of the year, it's up to each town. Oh, yeah. We haven't changed it. So it's still to, okay. All right, well, in that case, potentially we wanna maybe consider a different time for the downtown. So any other comments just in general? If I may. Stan Brinkerhoff is raising his hands and then I guess we have Stephen Bitterford close. Okay, we'll go to Stephen and then Stan. Go ahead, Stephen. I think that there's an opportunity here. I think if we're going to raise issues like satellite parking down at the Public Works garage facility, we should think about this in a long range view because we had considered even discussing that with legislators that they take satellite parking. We need to plan either bus or train from such locations up into town. And there's a real opportunity here to kind of match this planning, even though it's gonna be stop and start during the pandemic, match this planning with planning that could alleviate the need for a $12 billion garage. So if we can work with trading folks and creating opportunities to park outside of town, especially the day visitors during legislative season, we may have an opportunity to actually make some real long-term progress and possibly have a rail shuttle up into town, which would be long overdue. I'll stop there. Thanks. Thank you, Stephen and Stan, go ahead. Yeah, I thank you all for my comments. I take my comments and I live in a building that I purchased without off-speed parking. I knew that when I bought it and have been able to stay there and grow a family in Montpelier because of that facility. We're having our third child in January and not be able to park in front of our house. Again, you need case for me and I'm appealing my individual case, but there must be others. And I'm amazed that there hasn't been more feedback from this. I only caught it somehow, but I would encourage folks to reach out and talk to folks who do have similar situations. And I understand that there's public works concerns. This seems like a really big hammer to solve a problem that maybe I just don't understand the scope of, but it seems as though vehicles, the public services are provided. There's many targeted places we can do better, but do you please consider the folks that live here and can live here because of policies like that have been for the last six years? Thank you. Okay, anyone else? Okay, so I'm gonna close the public hearing. What is your pleasure council? Go ahead, Dan. Yeah, I'm in favor of moving forward with this. I think it's a sensible way to deal with this. I mean, I've been here long enough to remember as Bill referenced, when there was no off street parking from November through April. And that was something people had to deal with. It was a hardship. And I think this is a compromise that can have further adjustments. And I think the willingness of DPW to work with individual landowners that may have, such as Mr. Brinkerhoff situation where this creates a particularized hardship. But I think the problem and scope that's been defined in these prior hearings that Zach has pointed out about snow clearance, about overtime, about budgeting. I mean, we're gonna be moving into budgeting the next segment and the cost to do snow removal. And really the failings of snow removal under the current system are just outweighed. Because we're a winter city, because we're a river valley city, we constantly have to deal with snow coming down and limited places to put it. It's not as if we can plow it all into a field. And this parking system seems like a fairly straightforward. It's gonna take an adjustment. And it may not be the ultimate final solution, but at least at this time, I'm feeling like the responsiveness of DPW should help move this into place. And that ultimately this allows a sort of compromise position. As far as downtown parking, right now I was just looking, I don't know if any bars are staying open past midnight, but I don't have a problem with creating a sort of special downtown closing hours, a way of sort of alighting this transition. Because there are cars downtown and there may be restaurants or there may be bars, but I think that's a minor tweak that I'd certainly accept. But I'm prepared to move forward with this and I would vote to support it. I'll second. Okay, any further discussion? Lauren, go ahead. I'm gonna support it too. And I appreciate the comments we've heard tonight. I mean, I also view this as kind of a pilot project. And I know we'll learn a lot and trying between two extremes that have not worked well. So I'm sure there'll be some bumps and some lessons learned, but I really appreciate Zach and Donna's kind of open mindedness and the attitude going in those let's learn, let's communicate with individuals that might have particularized situations. Congratulations, Stan, on the new baby. And see how we can make it work as well as possible for the community, but also recognizing all these challenges we've had with the previous systems, the challenges we have with staffing, with expenses. And so I'm just grateful to our DPW team for coming up with us. Look forward to what we learn. I think we can adjust things if we need to, things like the hours for the downtown. I think we could keep an eye on that. If we're creating a hardship for businesses, then I think we could amend that as needed. So I'm gonna vote in support of it as well. Anyone else? Okay, so there's a motion in a second. And just to clarify, this motion does have a different time for the downtown. All right, so, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay, so that passes. Thank you for all of your work on this, Zach and Donna. And now I think we really need to just crank on getting the word out. I mean, I know we've already tried to get the word out to folks that this was coming, or at least it was a decision that was on the table. And so, but yeah, now, yeah, it's all about messaging. It's all about getting it out there. Thank you again. Thank you, we appreciate it. Yeah, okay. So we are gonna move on to talking about financing. I know earlier I said we've moved into budgeting, but it's really talking about the financing from the last first quarter, first quarter finances. But I guess in my mind, I'm thinking of it all as like, this is the money chunk. So it's like one longer conversation in my mind. I may just say that it would be great if we could, regardless of where we are, take a break at 8.30, even if we need to like pause the conversation just so that we can have a break. But I'm gonna, for this part, I'm gonna turn, I know this is like kind of a quick transition here, but yeah, I think we're gonna just dive into it. So I'm gonna turn things over. I assume to Kelly, unless Bill, you also have something you'd like to say. Okay, go ahead. Good evening everyone. So I'm gonna share some slides to just go through the FY20 year end detail, and then get into fiscal 21 and our deficit mitigation plan. And then next up after that is our background for fiscal 22 build. And so without further ado, I'm gonna get started there. Let me know if you can't see my screen for some reason and then we'll fix it, but let's see. So I am not showing the right thing. Hold on here. Too many things we'll be at once. Is this in the packet? This presentation, you'll get the details. I'm happy to provide the slides, but it's not in the packet. There is a memo in the packet that has all of this summarized. But please let me know if you'd like a copy. I'm happy to share. Yeah, if Cameron could send me the slides, I could look at them, I don't have enough bandwidth to participate through the Zoom. Okay, can everybody see my screen? Yes, perfect. Okay, so we'll just get into it. So I just wanna highlight really quickly that the FY20 numbers are unaudited. We have sent our financials to the auditors. They will be here next week doing their field work, but they're pretty firm. So I think it's a good time has any to share them. So just starting off where we put things back in April when we put this plan in place, we were looking at about a $500,000 gap. We did put some reduction strategies in place. You can see the departmental line items for about $245,000 listed here. And then we also put in place staff furloughs and there were some additional items such as higher increases, equipment delays and projects. And so that brought us down to about $100,000 or so left for the gap. And in the end, we ended up at about $85,000, $84,5,000, to be more specific, which is pretty good, all things considered. And this isn't a general fund, we're getting to parking in a minute. And so the general fund, I would have liked it to been a little closer, but given the timing and the final quarter bringing this to a head, we did pretty well. And some of the reason why we weren't able to close it completely is related to some of our transitional costs. We've had some staff changes and then also some of our legal work. But all in all, this is pretty good. I also wanna highlight that in my memo, I mentioned that the sewer fund less depreciation was about 1.5 million to the good in terms of the position that doesn't necessarily mean that's the cash we have on hand, but the sewer fund is doing quite well. And then getting into some of the other areas that we had talked about meeting maybe some resources, the senior center and the recreation department did come into the positive as a result of some of the actions taken. So those are the things I wanted to highlight in terms of where we ended up. But the two funds that did not do as well and we anticipated that it would be the case, general fund at 84.5 and parking about 165K. The general fund will be taken into account in the unrestricted fund balance bringing the balance down to about 580K at the fiscal year's end. A few things about that, GFOA which is the government finance association recommends that you have two months or so on hand. We have about 4% currently of our 15% target per policy and we should have about 2.4 million and per policy about 2.1. So we're gonna have to address this at some point but I just wanted to kind of give you a gauge for what that really should look like and why, well, there's a little bit of money there. We really don't have money to spare. One positive note that I wanna mention is that we are going to be getting some local government expense reimbursement money from the state between about $112,000. We're looking at additional items that we might add to this. So we may get a little bit more. So that'll really help us in the end not quit enough to make up the gap and some of this money will be based on 21 expenses in the first quarter, but it's something. And I think that considering where we started as this all hit, we are positioned to go into 21 in a way that allows us to really fully utilize the deficit mitigation plan that we put in place knowing that 21 would likely be worse than 20. So with that, I'll get into the first quarter of 21 unless if there are any other questions or general questions at this point. If I can ask a question about the government expense reimbursement grant, is that cares money or what is that from? So it is COVID money that's being filtered down through two municipalities for things like cleaning, sanitizing supplies, and PPE. And so at the start of this, we coded a lot of our expenses so that we would be able to track them. Thank you. You're welcome. So getting into fiscal year 21, we did act pretty quickly knowing that, things were just not good per se. And so we put in a $1.4 million deficit mitigation plan that you can see here on your screen. And we've been able to implement that. And as a result, we are looking good in terms of meeting our targets and meeting what the conditions really predict at this point which are pretty uncertain and are uncertain at the state and federal level. So we'll do what we can and do our best. And so here are the line items, getting into some of the detail, revenue projections and the aggregate seem to be holding. We are getting state pilot funds, which is good because we did project a proportional down to the amount of local options taxes that we had not necessarily been receiving due to restaurants and shops being closed. But then conversely, the parking fund is not doing well. And so the amount of those two things based on the down and parking kind of wash each other out. So we're not necessarily to the better we're kind of where we thought we would be. In terms of spending, we are right on target. We wanted to be between the seven to 9% less spent range at this point of a quarter through the year and we're doing that. And so it's a testament to folks sticking to the plan and conserving where we can. And so that's good. But at this point, there is still so much that's uncertain and things are changing. I was on a call late last week that the state at the state level, the state economists were saying that they are modeling like they would for private industry, whereas they would only model twice a year in January and July. And so it just kind of goes to show some of the volatility that we're seeing and turbulence. And so the extent that we can conserve and preserve our resources, I think we'll be able to maintain our current position hopefully and we'll keep an eye on things each quarter to see what's happening. So with that, my recommendation would be to keep the current plan in place to see how things end up to keep spending to the bare minimum and only focusing on essential items. Maintaining our hiring freeze part of the plan was to freeze some positions for the full year and some for the first quarter. Some of those first quarter positions are DPW, wind or maintenance positions. So we'll need to consider maybe possibly bringing them back depending on what the plans are. And then in terms of equipment and infrastructure at this point only replacing upon failure rather than investing in planned purchases based on our capital planning. And then we are doing a broader parking fund review right now to kind of see what's tracking. And some of the recommendations for FY22 builds will be pulling some of the operational staff costs off the parking fund and putting them back onto the general fund because we just don't have the funding there to support those positions. And then if conditions do improve, which they will eventually just we're not sure when, we'll consider plans at that point for restoration, but at this point we don't have the means to restore and so we don't have a prioritization plan, but we'll when the time comes. So that's what I have for the status of our current finances coming out of 20 into 21. And then we can get into 22 budget builds here when you're ready. Go ahead, it's eight o'clock here. So I think we've got one more time before break. If folks are okay. Any other questions? Lauren, go ahead. Yeah, I was just curious. So we're operating under the replacing equipment and infrastructure at point of failure. Are there, I mean, I know this is just this fiscal year. Obviously that seems like a very poor way to manage government over the long term, but hearing that there's like some of the projections that are like we're gonna be in a slump until 2027 or so we'll have to do some deep thinking in the future, but just curious if there's, are there things that we've put off that are gonna put us in a precarious situation or unable to manage anything? Are there other concerns that that is raising for the city staff and any departments by operating with the, do we expect to get to point of failure or is that something that we don't foresee but we obviously anything could happen, things break? Well, I mean, we are right now doing a deep dive on the capital planning, anything that was put off in 21, it will be put into 22 for consideration. And so, we are holding the line. That being said, it will likely be something that we'll have to consider in future years, because as you mentioned, through 27, we'll need to really actually think about things a little bit differently than we are right now. And I don't know that we'll necessarily be able to do the current plan, but I do think that we will get a plan in place to meet the city's needs and to really focus on core services. So I would jump in there too and say, to maybe more directly answer the question, yes. I mean, it's definitely a problem. But we also had to close a $1.4 million gap, which you all rallied with us and approved the budget. And as Kelly said, she and the DPW staff were working really hard to sort of put together the priorities through what got shifted. But I don't, I think we're kidding ourselves if we don't think that stuff that should have been, not only purchased for equipment, but roads and other infrastructure that should have been fixed in this fiscal year in 21, or even maybe at the end of 21, we were going to apply. That will now get put into the 22 budget but then we probably won't be able to fully fund 22 either. So we might maybe in 22 be able to get done what we were going to do in 21. That means everything that was on the list for 22 is going to be out in 23 and future years. I mean, this is definitely going to have a domino effect and we can't kid ourselves differently. Those are facts and short of proposing some sort of giant tax increase, which I don't think we're going to want to do either. So yeah, it's a really bad, it's a very difficult situation and certainly that is not the best way to manage any kind of operation. And what, as you know, when we talked about this year in the spring, we did the short-term mitigation plan for FY20 and then this plan. I think all of us in the room were hearing information that by now things would be getting better and maybe even by the second half of the year we can be thinking about restoring things and that by FY22 budget, we'd be back to our normal cycles. Well, you know, clearly that's not going to be the case. So what we're struggling with right now internally and obviously we'll have talks about this in a few minutes but also more over November, December, January is how do we look at this as a longer-term problem and how do we reset priorities and how do we, you know, you can't put off purchases forever, you can't put off road maintenance and projects forever. What services do we have to back the way from? What funding, you know, what are these decisions? Because, you know, we're not going to close a $1.7 million gap by just tinkering around the edges. Yeah, fair. Connor, then Dan. Could I ask you Kelly to break down the parking maybe even more than like just with the corridor there? Month by month, are there like positive indications that people are using these spaces more? It's actually pretty dire to be blunt. It's just not good. We're, you know, seeing probably about $34,000 in revenue generally and, you know, we're spending about $150,000, so we're overspending, you know, what we would for that line. And I can get you the exact numbers in terms of, you know, what we would be anticipating. We're anticipating somewhere in the range. We just get the exact number for you. But yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, things are just not rebounding like we thought they would. Are we at the point where, so the salaries are less than we're actually taking in revenue and we should be talking about like repurposing staff and showing off the meters? That's a conversation we're having internally. And we'll have a recommendation for the public. Yeah, so that for the parking meter revenue, for example, we should be taking in $663,000 annually. And so when you divide that on the quarter, you know, we're just not even really hitting a baseline. No. Thank you. Before I go to Dan, Kelly, was there more to your presentation about setting up things for FY22? I do have additional slides for FY22 if you wanted to go there. Okay, well, that's just good to know. Go ahead, Dan, and then we'll get back into your presentation. Can I go? All right, I just wanted to provide one piece of information to Connor's question about parking. Because one of the issues, and Kelly referred to it, but just to say it maybe in layman's terms, parking obviously pays for the folks that are out there doing the work, you know, the parking enforcement people. But it also pays for leases. We have some leased parking spaces. The city owns some, but we also have leases. And it pays to maintain them. So a portion of parking revenues go to DPW and my extension, the cemetery for plowing and cleaning and all those things. And portions offset some of our staff time who work with parking. So a portion of the police department is for enforcement. So in addition to the salaries of just the three individuals that work in parking, that's really for your economists out there. That's the true marginal costs of providing parking. Tomorrow is how much we're paying them versus how much we're coming in. But really, if you take it just a little further back, you know, all of this money that's being spent. So one of one of the budget issues we've got to overcome for next year. You heard Kelly talk about reallocating some of those funds is, is the amount of things that are, that are being charged to parking that are legitimate parking expenses. But we can't cover it. So that means they've got to come back to the general fund. You know, portion of my pay, for example, because I deal with parking. So some, some, some percentage, I don't know what it is, my pay is paid by parking. Well, if we pull that out, that means the general fund, the tax budget needs to cover that. So it's a compounding problem. So it's, it's, it's a little more complex than just. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what, what are the folks on the street, but they are the definitely the, the margin of providing parking tomorrow is the cost of those people. Thank you for that. Yeah. Selfful Dan, go ahead. Well, picking up on, on some of this parking conversation, I guess I, I two questions. One is. In breaking down those numbers. I mean, is there a particular part of the parking. Or is it just an overall shortfall? Well, I would say it's because of those things, but it is generally a shortfall. I mean, we turn the meters on first and then the lots. And so we were kind of waiting until October 15th to really get a true assessment of where we stand for both. You know, areas. So then we can really, you know, drill down and get a sense of, you know, What's not being utilized, but you know, generally it's under utilization. You know, we're not seeing the traffic that we were recoded. And you know, the state employees being away from the city and will not necessarily coming into the city as much. You can see it. And those lots are wide open. So people can park there. Hey. Bill, what are, I mean, do we have options as far as revenue sources? I mean, we obviously have property taxes that we take in. And as you indicated, one option is to raise the property taxes, which I don't know. I don't think there's much stomach, but you know, the other is the sales tax, which I presume is down the option tax. I mean, We don't have a local sales tax. We have rooms, meals and alcohol tax. Right. That's what I meant. Right. So obviously those are down. People are not renting rooms. They're not eating out as much. They're not drinking out as much. So they're down. And I think even all of that is down statewide. As well as, I mean, you know, we've all seen it just this fall, right? We haven't seen the tour buses. We haven't seen all those kinds of things. So that's one of our revenues. We have parking, of course, property taxes. As far away, our biggest. Our fee revenues for things like records. Senior center, you know, program revenue. Those have been largely closed. And, you know, we're just starting to bring those back. But again, participation isn't the same as it has been. You know, our building, I think our building permits and zoning permits surprisingly have stayed okay. I don't think they're going to be. Right. We thought they were, but we've actually had some development. Activity. But really, you know, all of our operating revenues are just, are just down. And we don't have, I mean, one of the struggles for us. I think most municipalities. I think we have a more diversified revenue source than most municipalities. Which is great. Most of the time, but right now, you know, it's hitting us. And, you know, when I talk about property tax increase, I mean, it's a 20 cent increase to make up the difference. I mean, that's, you know, unheard of. I mean, that's, you know, that's not really, I don't think, I mean, you guys make that call on me, but it's hard to think that that's really on the table. So, you know, that's the kind of order of magnitude we're talking about. It goes to, you know, the normal one or two cents based on inflation or something like that. Right. And just to be clear, when you say 20 cents, you're talking about 20 cents for every taxable. 100. 100. Right. If the tax rate was a dollar per hundred, it would be a dollar 20. That's about right. We roughly 20% increase where we're close to a dollar. So, you know, I mean, obviously it's a conversation you can have, but I, you know, there's also people out there that are out of work and struggling. Right. Well, I guess my last question is, you know, to what extent are we building a budget that. Is, as you said, before one that's looking to just sort of get us to the other side as we did with the cuts before. And one that might just simply envision. A smaller group of city services. I'd like to defer that question if I could to the next conversation we're about to go into. Yeah, no, I'm happy to lay that ground work out. And to some extent. You all are going to provide some guidance on. Thanks. It's a policy question. Part. Okay. Go ahead, Kelly. Okay. So I'm going to share my screen again. I'm going to share my screen again. Let me know. If you cannot see it. And here we go. Almost there. Hold on. Can I ask somebody. Can I ask camera to email me the 22 slides? On it. Thank you. Okay. So here we go. So here are the assumptions. I also want to ask Kelly. Okay. So I'm going to share my screen again. So here are the assumptions. I also want to start off by saying that budget instructions were issued to city staff last week. On October 2nd or maybe a week past now. But anyway, these are some of the assumptions that were outlined therein. So just going down the line. No growth in revenues and downgrades projected. No growth in the grand list. So I thought I'd just like to share with you today, but we have a number of options. So the first one is the low recommended policy thresholds, which we just discussed briefly in the last briefing. Salary and benefit projections to be absorbed within existing budgets. Unfortunately, this year there will be a 27th pay period, which is kind of a double whammy for us. Health insurance will increase by 8% or $135,000. Which is less than last year's increase. isn't so bad when last year was 25%. I will also note that we are getting some information from Hickok and Bourbon that they're scrubbing this number a little bit so you know we'll see what happens but this is what we have for right now. They're going to try to you know maybe get it down a little bit and we'll see if our experience can support that. And then the capital improvement plan and equipment plans will be for essential project and equipment failure only that's extreme but I think you know it's extreme time and so we're reviewing the capital plans right now for things that are shifting from 21 into 22 and then also really looking at everything to see what really needs to be on the list and what needs to be discussed as we move forward. So this these revenue projections outlined in the memo that was with a packet for background but generally we're projecting about $595,000 of a revenue downgrade. This is a you know good estimate but I also want to caution that we're only taking state pilot down by 10% reduction which is what you know some of the instructions have been for reductions at the state level. If this is to trend with local option taxes which we didn't see in 20 we actually ended up seeing what we thought we would so that's why I ended up taking it down by you know what seemed reasonable this could be more so I just want to caution there or this is you know an estimate right now we'll keep working on this as new information comes in but property taxes likely will be down by a little bit which they were last year pilot payment will be down. We'll keep an eye on that. Local options taxes and current use will likely be down state highway aid we'll keep an eye on that as well but the transportation fund is not doing particularly well. A school resource officer based on the ongoing conversation I've taken the school portion down I'm not expecting that we would receive that from the school and so it's a conversation but I wanted to put that in here as a placeholder. I did put down permits and fees we'll have to see how things are coming in. We like Bill mentioned are you know seeing some development so this might actually end up swinging to the good but I also didn't want to book it as positive until we know but right now it's a down and then ambulance right now we're seeing based on experience a down and I will keep an eye on things to see if that continues and then penalty and interest that's also projected to come in down and then the parking fund is the other area where the revenues are just not likely to come in and so based on the staff allocations that Bill was alluding to to the parking fund the estimate that I have right now based on the budget system is about $425,000 for you know all city staff that are non-enforcement staff. So as you can see it's a pretty big chunk of the the gap that we have right now and so moving on to the expense projections we're building the budget right now with a capital improvement plan that tracks to what we had planned for FY 22 in terms of the you know conditions or criteria or you know caps for what we might spend on certain items that being said you know we're using this as a baseline and then also let you know what we you know keep in or take out so then you have a full estimate of you know what it would look like if we could fully fund it and then what it means that we you know having to pull things out to support the gap. For personnel you get some details here on some of the general expenses related to personnel costs if we were to increase the budget by just personnel it'd be about 4.8 cents or about four and a half percent which is what we did this past year and then we get a little bit of information here on our health insurance and then I want to take a little bit of time on the operating items here in the gap table that I've provided there's a little bit more detail but some of the things that I want to highlight is we do have the reappraisal coming up and that's something that we you know have to do and so part of that will be in 22 part will be in 23 at $130,000 total 260 and then the elevator and city hall is not ADA compliant and needs to be refurbished and so that's about a hundred thousand dollar cost so I tried to list the things that are things that we really should do and then there are items that also need to be put on the table for discussion such as Confluence Park $20,000 we need to likely find that the parking meter upgrades is something that would likely be supported by the parking fund but right now we do not have the means to support an upgrade so we'll be working on that there's $134,000 for the TKS property that we would need to find funding for and then other items that have been sort of in the mix the LED street lights the very street intersection and then the recreation center renovation project so there may be other things that come up over the course of budget development and I'll brief you on those as they come up but those are some of the things that are kind of out there right now so then here's the gap sheet and so in the total column you can see that there's about 2.6 million dollars in items that we need to cover and then when you look at the general fund side of things it's about 1.6 almost 1.7 4 and 11 percent increase in GAF over FY 21 and then you can see that it's about a 20 increase on the tax rate. I'm going to leave the slide right here the next slide is key budget dates that we can kind of talk about and then I also wanted to kind of get some guidance for you on how you want to be capital improvement committee to run because we'll need to sort of make some moves on that soon so that we can get things rolling we are on target to have plans in place for review for the schedule but I also want to get a sense of composition and what kinds of details you really like us to get into and bring you so with that that's what I have for the FY 22 background for now and we got questions please let me know Lauren and then Connor go ahead this is not you know the biggest line item but I know at one point we had talked about the idea of seeing I think we have to build it into the budget but the reappraisal process if there was a way to see if we could either get relief from the legislature it sounded like they had to change the threshold not that long ago that we hit and so I still think it's worth looking into that I mean of all years to have to do that this is just such a hard time to find an extra 130,000 to start that if we could either ask for a delay or a temporary shift back to the old threshold so we wouldn't have to commit to that I'm imagining the next two years are going to be challenging budget years so I just throw that back out there is one idea yeah thank you thank you Connor did you like the retirement incentives at all um you know it's um we've talked about it generally but um not in detail um and it all depends you know on what the pool of city employees is right now so we got to get into the details to really fully vet that I feel I could use your assistance on answering that more fully uh so the good and the good part about being in the vmur's retirement plan is you know whenever all the other municipalities are on the state it's managed by the state treasurer so you know it's a stable plan the bad news is it's not particularly flexible in terms of offering early buyouts and those kinds of things um you know you can't tailor it to your own community it really would have to be something that was done by the system so the city would have to look at things like either giving someone a bonus which might help their their final payout or offer to pay health insurance for a period of time those kinds of things so you know we we haven't really put anything out specifically each year at budget time we take a look and see who may or may not be retiring and what their circumstances are and have a conversation with them about what you know I mean we have good employees but we've had a lot of people retire in the last few years too I don't know that we have that many people right on the threshold of you know I know we were doing a scan for that in anticipation of this to see if there were any anticipated retirements and I don't think we have that many you know people close so unless you want to get rid of me which is fine other comments or questions um I think we will probably want I love a few more comments about this but it is just about 8 30 and so I'm wondering if now would be a good time to take a break also members of the public have things to say about this we want to hear from you all as well but I think we will still go ahead and take a break and then we'll continue to talk about this unless there's any burning comments or questions from council okay all right so um it is just about 8 30 right now let's take a is five minutes okay or do you or would you prefer 10 I have to sneeze oh gosh okay I'm seeing a couple votes for 10 let's go 10 minutes we'll be back at 8 40 okay so uh in line of that Kelly is there anything further you wanted to add uh about framing thinking for FY 22 uh no um I think that that really kind of covers it um thank you yeah no problem Bill anything you want to add okay um I I have a few uh comments about this so obviously these are extraordinarily unfortunate circumstances and I think this might be the most strained budget season I have ever I have ever participated in or ever witnessed and I wonder if it's that's probably true for others as well so I'm usually well I don't want to get too far ahead of myself in making assumptions about where we're going with this and so in order to not get ahead of myself I'm just going to put out there that I've already drafted this year's budget survey which will go to all the city councilors uh and ask some policy level guideline kind of questions about how you are thinking about this budget um I think in the past we have had questions on the budget survey that said you know if there was anything you were up for cutting what would it be and in the past we've gotten away with being able to say nothing I think we are doing a great job with everything and we shouldn't cut anything um and I think you know we we said that last time and well maybe not last time but uh I think regardless of whatever we said last time we had to cut more things because the revenue was so short and so I think coming into this budget season we have to take those kinds of questions about what we're going to let go of pretty seriously so in light of that we could take a little bit of time right now to say you know if folks have general like big picture general thoughts they'd like to share about how they're thinking about this budget you know you're welcome to share them now but we'll have more time at future meetings to get into details and uh specifics so but if folks have things they would like to share at this point in terms of the big picture now would be the time and um um and then I think we'd also like to hear from the public as well and just bear in mind that we're at the beginning of this conversation and it'll continue for meetings until January basically um so starting with the with the council any any big picture thoughts you'd like to share if not that's okay uh Lauren go ahead I mean one one challenge and I don't know if Kelly or Bill has any sense I mean I guess one way I'm thinking about it is you know if we anticipate you know we're kind of in the worst of it in a year from now it's going to be not great but better but we're going to be able to have you know fully open restaurants again and things like that um you know but we're still going to have lost businesses and people are still going to be hurting um I'm just wondering if there's like you know some assessment or sense you have right now of you know we'll bounce back but it will only be a little bit so it changed my long term thinking of you know are we able to you know like we talked about earlier you know punt on some things and try to you know slowly make up for that gap in the coming years or are their entire programs that it's like for the next five to ten years we don't know if we could even go there and so I don't know how much sense you have from either previous economic downturns that are more typical to learn from or um I don't know I'm just like how for me I would rather do like the stuff that is not like cutting core services that are going to be harder to build back later um versus things that we could kind of push off but don't undermine the integrity of the the city government or their staffing so um I don't know if I'm making any sense but I'm just kind of wrestling with that like is is there is there a sense or do we think we'll have by December you know from our state economists and others like any any better sense of how long and deep the pain is um to be able to kind of weigh those different approaches well so I'd say that's the central question in this budget right there you hit it right on the head one and you know I don't think we as staff have any more knowledge or information than any of you have um you know unlike other downturns it's not cyclical or it's not you know gee if there's interest rate changes or this happens or you know there's a there's a stimulus then that will get things you know whatever this is due to a disease a pandemic that we don't know the horizon for and we don't know how it's going to be harnessed and we're seeing you know a new growth around the country of it right now and frankly we're not seeing a lot of a centralized effort to contain it um so we don't know what what we're facing um you know if there's suddenly a vaccine and it's widespread and it can be implemented then you know it's a whole new ballgame but there's also you know it's one of the things we're trying to do I think at our end and it's not going to answer your question per se but we're trying to get a taking a look at the the non-tax revenues and think about that you know what's what's the worst it can possibly be what's normal and you know what would be something in between and what does that mean and I think what that could lead us to doing is preparing a budget that says all right you know here's based on what we know today this is you know just say it's what Kelly just laid out okay we've got 1.7 million dollars gap we've got to close so we're going to cut these things out but here's potential you know potential increases and so we could then just like we're doing now sort of reviewing where we're at quarterly if if we start seeing returns from these single everythings can be solely put back because those aren't based on the property tax they're based on these other revenues and um you know I mean really it's not unlike like I said the situation we're in right now we made these these cuts for this current year saying all right then every quarter we'll check in and see what we're doing and we might just you know we may be in that mode for a couple of years where where we're prioritizing our risk you know this is what we won't do unless it gets better and you know I don't have a magic answer yet like I said you know we just the presentation you just got um you know the staff just got last week so this is this isn't like you know we're collecting now we're collecting the recommendations from people and I would say that staff as a whole our stance was we need to look at this as though we're going to be in this for years I think they did not want to take on the rosy outlook only to then have to crush it back down again it was let's let's take the hard line and build back if it's good news so if if I may also take a crack at that question as well I want to put in context that we will be deferred we've basically deferred quite a bit of maintenance from this past summer it's very likely I think that we're going to be continuing to defer maintenance uh purchases etc for this fiscal year even though we planned on I'm moving forward with maintenance and and purchases uh and as uh Bill said earlier we really can't defer maintenance forever and so just so you all know where my mindset is is that I think that means uh slumming down of services and being really fiscally savvy and honestly conservative about how we're spending our money it really scares me that scared scares me the wrong word um it I find it concerning that we are at 4% of our operating um or our yeah our recommended policy um budget policy I don't feel like I have the right word there one we're supposed to be at 15 percent um unassigned fund balance thank you uh and I I think you know we may see future hard years and so I'm interested in building that up as a better buffer for ourselves moving into the future um if things do go better than we expect I would again this is me getting ahead of myself but I'll just let you know the way I'm thinking about this now is that I would rather plan for the worst and hope for the best and then when things are a little better than we planned I would like to see some priority given to having that money go towards the unassigned fund balance in preparation for any future efforts and to get towards that 15 percent uh policy that's just me there are some other hands Donna and then Jay thank you um I probably even more negative than you and that I feel like we're heading into some real national crisis as much as Vermont has insulated ourselves uh November December and January whoever wins the election is going to be really really hard on the economy the virus is already showing itself here in Vermont and we have had good behavior and and the indoorness is only going to increase it so I would say we have to look at last year and double the problems and really really go on a strictly thin thin diet for the next year and that means just any cash you can have keep it don't spend it so that's where I'm coming from thank you uh Jay yeah no I I mean absolute agreement with Donna and Anne on on our um cash and and how we're managing specific budgets I guess I I head into this process trying to with the mindset that this isn't just like an economic recovery like we're trying to get back to how it was this is an economic redefinition that we need to um think that there will be a new normal um and I won't say post COVID because what does that mean right um I just think that we need to be as we're thinking about economic development and growth and supporting Montpeliers downtown and local businesses that we need to think about what that's going to look like in the short term mid term and long term and you can you know assign timeframes to each of those but um just being strategic in terms of how we invest and how we partner with local organizations um and position ourselves to um you know to to be ahead of the curve in a new economy I think that that's how um we'll be able to position ourselves to you know be able to be successful as as we move forward so I totally get that like that's very nondescript and kind of heady and and not in the weeds in terms of what we need to do in terms of budget but when I think about how we're investing the very the the small amount of money we might have into how we grow our local economy I think that that's where our mindset needs to be not just trying to figure out how how we used to have it but thinking about how we can be ahead be leaders in how it could be in the in the in the future so thanks all right thank you who else have thoughts they'd like to share uh Dan go ahead be sure I think I'll build on the comments that we've heard already because I you know I am in agreement with with what's been said I guess I would also add uh on top of that but I think we have to be very careful um the when we look at the revenue um you know the taxpayers of Montpelier aren't going to be in a position anymore um than anyone else to bear any of these costs and you know certainly as bill was indicating you know to shift some of these lost revenue costs to maintain as we as we are is a 20 20 jump and that's just not realistic in any way shape or form but I think even even lower than that we really have to be cautious this is the year to um not to hit taxpayers because uh a lot of these economic impacts are going to start to hit people um in the new year uh stimulus funds running out and employment uh in businesses being unstable I think we have to be very very cautious of that so it's it's sort of the um the twin uh problems I'm trying to think of the names from Greek mythology where you're going between the whirlpool and the the snake infested rocks but um you know this is uh this is the problem that we're going to have to steer this boat between and I think the only way we can do it is to look at it not as a temporary issue this is not a well let's just hold our breath and get to the other side of that um and this is something where we're going to have to reinvent some of these issues and and I think in some ways identify what are the core things you know I've been on boards where you know the the object is who's the last person in the room to turn out the lights and building up from there I don't mean to to make that kind of suggestion that we're doing that here but I think we do have to identify our core services what are the things that we absolutely have to provide um because I think we are gonna have to think make some really tough hard choices um this coming year and I think we have to make them structurally yeah I thought I'd find myself in this kind of having to make these kinds of decisions but here we are um other thoughts from council oh okay jack go ahead you know it's this is very tough for for many years I've always recognized and really appreciated that uh that the people of Montpelier really appreciate and value the services they get from the city and people have always been willing to pay what it takes to maintain those services and the taxes that people pay to pay those services you know are also in investment and literally investment in people's homes because part of the reason that we have the value of property tax of properties that we do is because of the value of services that we get from the city and the way Montpelier is such an attractive place to live and so you know but people are not taxing themselves an extra 20 cents to to maintain what what we have now um we also don't want to be in a position of saving or having the city be so significantly and the city services be so significantly degraded that what we're left with is not the recognizable and valued valued set of uh the city and so it's you know we're all we all serve on these committees and we're talking about all these great plans we have you know talked about the uh the downtown master plan talked about the uh downtown scoping study the transportation but everything involves what can we do to make uh make the city and the downtown better for everyone who lives here and everyone who uses the city and so we'll have to think about how to do that with very constrained uh finances yeah um Lauren was that a hand go ahead yeah i mean just one consideration you know so by the time that we're doing this budget we will have seen the election which you know depending on how that goes could make it either much less or more likely that there would actually be some dollars flowing to state and maybe city government hopefully um just thinking about you know depending on how that goes if if there does seem like there's some likelihood and obviously it's really hard to plan but if we're doing that kind of waterfall approach where if money came you know i guess thinking about the types of dollars that would be most likely to come in and so if we're doing our budgeting um you know just adding that kind of nuance to to how we might shape a kind of you know wish list if dollars came in based on the kind of constraints that might be tied to that money um not to be the polyanna-ish one here not actually feeling very polyanna-ish about the world right now but um but hopefully we're in that position where where uh we have that that opportunity or at least should be planning for if if you know the log jam does break that if we get dollars that we're we're set up as well as possible to take advantage of it um because we've got the right kinds of projects and stuff ready to go cool um any colors from the public yes see what we got here go ahead Steven i want to take issue with one thing that jack said about uh people have been willing to pay whatever it takes to maintain and we have neglected our maintenance dramatically on our public works our sidewalks our streets are and and so now this is compounding that and this may actually reorient the economy for decades to come uh the legislature has no plans to come back to Montpelier now which is going to impact rooms and meals and you know all the downtown commerce uh and parking to a good to a little beneficial effect but my point is we should really uh reassess our priorities we should do some serious uh uh thrift uh necessary cuts uh when we talk about essential services i'm going to raise now and later in the agenda the issue of public bathrooms you know we you've got you're taking 25 percent on ellie's presentation from the homeless task force i would take the rest of it because they have not done what you charge them to do for an entire year and use that to pay someone to staff the transit center in the off hours and keep those bathrooms open we're going to have a displacement of people the more people with better means come from out of state to biopousing and rent departments because it's safer here you're displacing local people so we're going to have an increased evictions are going up we're going to have an increased crunch of services so we really need to rethink and reorient what are our real goals are not just our professed goals of compassion and progressive and egalitarian but we need to get real serious about uh identifying our core goals and core values and put safety nets in place we need to cut some of the fat out of our budget um and i'll i'll have more to say about it later but i think that's that's kind of intro to where my thinking is going on this this is not this is very serious and it's not uh something that we should even if we do get a million or five in federal relief grants uh that's still not going to solve the problem that we've created or that we ourselves and nature hope it has created for us so uh that's my uh sobering wake up call thank you steven any other members of the public want to comment on this and cameron are you seeing anyone okay okay um so i think for now we'll leave it there council look for uh the budget survey that's going to come out probably within uh i'll probably send it out tomorrow um and yeah if you can fill that out ideally um within the week uh well within a week so if it comes out tomorrow you know ideally by next thursday or so would be wonderful um and with that we're going to move on from now um again i know that's kind of a hard transition again but uh there we are okay so um i just want to recognize that it is nine o'clock and we have about seven items uh on the agenda still some of which i think we really do need to get to um so i have cautiously optimistic that we can get to um some of them or all of them actually uh so but i just want to say let's let's be brief if we can um otherwise i think we're gonna have to jettison some things um so i know uh dan is on the line and uh talk about Montpelier alive so uh thanks for being here dan and uh go ahead thanks i i promise to take no more than three minutes of your time wow unless you want more than three minutes of my time in which case i will give you as much time as you would like um yeah so we've been you know continuing to work hard to support existing businesses in Montpelier um from our surveys that we've been doing monthly things are improving um but they're not amazing by any stretch of imagination so um we now see the average businesses at about 75 percent of their comparable revenue from last year um and about um 80 percent of businesses uh record that they're now breaking even um just as a comparison that figure was five percent in may of businesses reported that they were breaking even um so better um in many cases the staffing levels are down more significantly than the the revenue um as businesses try and cut costs and and get to that break even point so um i'm most worried as i think you've heard about uh with food and beverage and hospitality type businesses coming into the winter uh with the lack of outdoor dining i think the capacity restrictions are going to be much more impactful on them than on the retail stores and i think for some of the retailers as well this is sort of going to be a make or break holiday season um i think if we are to see businesses um close it will be after the holidays um you know try and get through this the good period hopefully um but you know tourism is down so many employees are not working downtown right now um so there's a lot of just like structural factors that really are difficult um there is a new round of the state economic recovered grants coming soon um more businesses will be eligible for that and then there are some businesses who hit the maximum amount so you could get up to $150,000 in the last set and that um they will allow people to reapply for another $150,000 um if you'd have to have revenues that were high enough to support that so it's 10 percent of 2019 revenues is the maximum grant amount um we have helped monthly businesses get approximately 1.9 million dollars in the Vermont economic recovery grants to date um so i'm proud of that personally worked with many businesses spent some time sitting on the computer helping people fill out applications if that's what it took um we uh jean kissner continues to work as our recovery navigator um her she's contracted through march of 2021 um she has personally provided assistance to 105 businesses and then you know we've been doing weekly business meetings a lot of workshops um all sorts of different ways to help people twice weekly newsletters with you know information map grant opportunities and guidelines and other things um in terms of our role i think the next steps are looking towards um recruiting some new businesses to our downtown to fill us vacancies that you know we've started to see and well unfortunately only see more um and you know we continue to do things like promotional campaigns and events and things to get people downtown including mobility of madness this weekend which i would be remiss if i didn't mention um so we see our role as sort of this more short and medium and micro level and then the mbc's role as the sort of macro strategic planning kind of level um and look forward to working with them more um in terms of the d i d budget which is something that i'm actually here to talk about because you have to approve it so transitioning from thinking about 22 to this is the d i d budget for the year that's already started we're just late in grand tradition i think it's our every year we tend to come in October to talk to you about a budget that started in july um but making strategic investments in marketing our downtown so that when tourism recovers we'll be ready for it including um revamping our website and creating a new version of our tourism brochure that's been very popular but will now be out of date it's now a year and a half old at this point um and uh continuing you know some of the proven strategies that we've used like event grants and um you know keeping our downtown beautiful and welcoming for people so i'll stop there great um questions or comments for dan i go ahead donna damon you mentioned you're late this is f y 21 i i went and looked at our list and i i saw the development core was listed as something we wanted to at least keep like 25 percent of the original amount but i don't see uh mom tell you're live listed are you at all in our f y 21 budget yes yeah yeah so what's the amount um well there's a few different line items all within community enhancements so there's the 32 600 that's sort of the direct unrestricted support um there's some 2000 for holiday decoration 3000 for fall slash winter event um and then the one that was cut was 45 hundred dollars for july third which obviously didn't take place this year although we typically um use those funds to support that event but also our organization throughout the year so that that was the one cut we had which was about i guess 10 percent of the city appropriation um the d i d budget is a separate um you know ballad and mine item that goes for your downtown marketing promotion and that's the sort of specific budget that's in your packet right but the budget in the packet both for f y 20 and f y 21 i don't see any identifiable amount from the city i see pilot and i see d i d as income but i see nothing from the city direct so the two pieces so this is just looking at the sort of d i d budget specifically because that's what gets that we what we have to present for approval by council so the two pieces that go into it are the the d i d tax so that's about 41 000 and then the pilot for the properties that are in that d i d district so the state properties that are would otherwise be taxed by the with the special tax assessment um which so combined that's about just over $60 000 so the money from the city that goes to montpellier live is separate from that i guess it'd be helpful for me if we got them both at the same time when we're doing our budget that's all just for future reference okay just my own confusion sorry well the the overall montpellier live budget is not the our overall budget is not subject to cancel approval um i mean it's publicly available as a nonprofit but no i understand but we ultimately do give you these funds they're not automatic so i would presume we'll see some budget related to those funds the budget related to the funds is what is presented to you the to related to the d i d funds is what's presented to you and the the remaining money goes towards so that the 42 600 what it adds up to the other city funds the 32 600 basically pays my salary and then the the other money goes towards those specific things that they're listed for in community enhancement so if we had gotten the 4500 it would go towards July 3rd um the 3000 for fall slash winter event is going towards montpellier madness um and the 2000 for holiday decorations is going to holiday decoration yeah i guess before your time we used to get this other kind of budget and and what activities were outside of this so sorry my mind just regressed to wanting to look at that in conjunction with this to see a bigger holistic picture but thank you thank you for finding that great other questions for dan jack go ahead so we need a motion to approve the 2001 2021 d i d budget yeah i move that second okay we have a motion and a second um further discussion any comments from the public okay um all right so all in favor please say i hi and opposed okay all right so uh that d i d budget passes thank you dan thanks for your time thanks for all the work that you're doing with the downtown businesses and please pass along our thanks to gene as well um it's really uh crucial what you all are doing right now so very grateful thanks okay um all right so the next item is a discussion of public bathrooms and so i think we should take that up next who are the item after that to do an update if we wanted to just do those yeah i actually kind of wonder if it makes sense to do those back to um because they're related um i couldn't hear what you said would you repeat yourself please you thought there were some folks on the line from uh montpiler development corporation and so i think that that does make sense um so uh to that i see uh kathan you just uh turn your video on i and sarah great um so uh i will turn bill as well so i will turn things over to you all to give us an update from the mgc okay great i'll start with a just a a brief introduction and then um sarah's going to follow with the mend and uh and then uh kathan will talk about um what we've been doing on savings pasture but i think donna you brought up a great question and i and it's some of this are plans and once again we we offer our our funds and what we have to the city uh in these efforts to help with the pandemic and the response um you know that we we look at this as a an issue to solve and and and to be supportive in and um you know i think it some of what we're about to present will depend on whether we actually get funded um you know because without that we you know probably if we're not going to get funded going forward it it may not make sense for us to kind of try and do start things or or continue if you know if we're not because i do think that the as dan described we are looking at strategic and long-term plans and impacts um and and coming up with a plan for that but it's not you know and it was very helpful that the council funded us and committed to the to the five years at the beginning we're now coming up on that fifth year so it's time to see if there's a commitment and a um and and and what makes the most sense and and i think that we're open to whatever the council or city you know looks at as our the best utilization of both our funds and and our kind of human resources um we now have seven people on the board and um you get all of us for free uh we spend all of our money on direct uh you know kind of direct impact everyone on the board is very very budget conscious and um you'll see you know last we were before you we talked about the mend fund um and you'll hear how much we've we you know that that was raised for the mend fund and the impact and how broadly that that hit i think also uh when the when covid first came uh you know and and impacted our economy we uh we offered several grants and and um Montpelier alive did take one of those grants and that's that was the original funding for um the navigator the gene kissner money uh it contributed it's not all of it but uh we we and then think feeling like there was more uh to be done in the immediate sense we did come up with the with the mend fund so i think with that we'll uh sarah will talk about mend and then there's ongoing work kind of in that longer term you know kind of continuing to plan for the future and and growth uh right through this whole pandemic we'll talk about savings pasture as well and then we can shift back to at the end if there's time our long-term plan which would depend on kind of funding and and what that looks like but using the pandemic and and looking nationally at what's happening and saying that Montpelier may be one of those economic um solutions to uh the problems that that people are seeing in the cities and i think we're seeing anecdotally we're seeing some evidence of that we've started to actually come up with some some data uh that that Montpelier is is a refuge for people looking to leave cities and and places of high creativity so we're we're looking at brooklyn and and portland oregon as places that are already by natural causes coming here so we would be working in conjunction with what dan was talking about earlier um but on that long-term range and and high impact trying to really leverage our dollars and bring people here from afar uh but with that i'll i'll turn it over to sarah and we can talk about efforts that we've done and and completed okay thanks bill um and thanks to all of you for your long hours and hearing hearing the budget numbers there's really um i'm you know i don't envy you as you know i've been in your seats and especially you and or envy you have filled some responsibility for you being on the council so thank you all really for your hard work and difficult decisions ahead of you um so i have the opportunity to talk about something you know fantastic which is reporting on this great fundraising effort that we were part of um where we provided grants to 74 Montpelier businesses um in the downtown they ranged from a thousand dollars to five thousand dollars collectively the corporate donors that we were working with um union mutual the company i work for vermont mutual national life rents out savings bank um no w johnson and then a bunch of under individual donors um including susan retz so we all know is a great community steward and benefactor total contribution for all those entities and people was over 200 000 dollars so that was a great infusion of cash um into our community in the summer and we had an amazing reception to that as you can imagine quite a bit of gratitude and appreciation um i had a chance to speak one on one with a lot of downtown business owners who were just you know tearful in their appreciation and it was you know we really we were pleased to be part of that montelier foundation activists our fiscal agents so they were responsible for the logistics and the actual check cutting so that was that was really a pleasure to be a part of um and obviously just a small part of the recovery efforts getting people through um you know sort of the the beginning of this so we're uh we are we have we are in conversations with montelier alive about some next steps about covid recovery we have uh more meetings scheduled with them about working on them working with them sorry um on new business attraction but again as bill bill said that that will sort of depend on what frankly what you want from us in the future we're we would like to be certainly working with you and for you um and are very cognizant of the pressures that you're under financially so we'd like to be able to be part of that solution in terms of what our local business community um who you know who it is made up of and and how it survives but you know again we'll we'll we'll defer to your your difficult decisions so um i'll hand it over to kathryn kodius who has been working for the mdc as a project manager she's she was the administrative um steward and superhero of the men fund and is working with us also as a project manager um on a couple other projects including savings pastor so i'll let her take it from here awesome thanks sarah and it's nice to meet all of you who i've not met but i think i know most of you it's nice to see your faces um so i've been um as these guys mentioned project managing the savings pastor development which at this point has been a lot of monitoring um essentially mdc has been tracking progress on two potential major developments um in the savings parcel area and rather than talk about the specifics of those projects i'll just share with you sort of our role we've been meeting weekly with bill i've been meeting weekly with bill frazier and the city's tiff consultant um and earlier this summer we convene stakeholders um from both projects to look for points of collaboration on infrastructure to better leverage um the tiff um of the potential tiff um for that area um mixed success here um in terms of uh working with those parties but uh but i think that we're mdc is still working um in various directions to facilitate the best use of potential funds that could come from these developments um to benefit the city the public uh so we moving forward hope to identify pinch points for developers um in the area and to look for solutions for them um we'll continue to promote housing development and other city goals that are tied to these projects um and really hoping you know focusing on leveraging local state federal dollars um really with the high aim of you know looking for the public benefit of these projects but also to attract new residents and towns uh residents and businesses to town um so that's kind of the like really high level of what we've been doing and i'm happy to answer more specifics um but i'm sure you guys probably know way more than you ever wanted to know about potential things that could potentially happen at babes faster great any questions uh for maybe mdc folks uh j go ahead uh a little bit random but ellen or what do you think should be the next steps for mdc thanks for joining us by the way i'm happy to be there at least uh virtually with you all in i'm in venetian's capital at this point um not close to 1600 pennsylvania avenue however just to make that clear um we were talking today about some very exciting things that um we could perhaps contribute going forward in this in this crisis and i'd rather defer to build to talk about it now or maybe we need to talk internally first for a while and then get back to you but i think we do have a role i mean i think that what happened with the mend fund um i just think was extraordinary and i it was it was several of the mdc board members who put that together obviously and um it was it was a tremendous contribution i mean i again anecdotally talked to a number of the business owners and they were thrilled this area was saying i mean they were almost tearful about how how much the small relatively small amount that we were able to contribute helped them to keep their doors open and that was very exciting and so i i do think we have a role i think the kind of role that we can play is something very very specific like what's going on on savings i mean keeping an eye on on the different parties they are keeping an eye on potential ways that we could suggest the city to support whatever development happens there and and also working to attract businesses that perhaps are going to be leaving the cities and you know i i'm a city person i love being in in big cities new york and and washington et cetera but i do think that clearly in the residential realm we have seen that people want to come to vermont they're the residential market from what i know is actually booming um unlike other parts of the world and i think this could perhaps happen with businesses as well those that don't have to be in a city could perhaps be doing back of the office work in montpelier could perhaps be doing light manufacturing all sorts of things which again would bring more people downtown if we can fill the upper levels of our buildings and would bring more business to our our retailers so that's a few thoughts no i appreciate i don't mean to just push on the spot but i appreciate you joining us and just curious curious your perspective so lauren go ahead yeah thanks and and the men's project was really exciting so thanks for all the work that went into that really appreciate it um have you seen it all you know knowing that a lot of our philanthropic dollars right now are going to covet relief and response the community found mont community foundation has done you know a big shift there is there opportunity to get funding for the role mdc is playing from some philanthropic dollars that are looking at recovery and response you know like new opportunities that haven't been there before that might be able to you know knowing the budget pressure of the city as you just sat through our dire forecasts just wondering if there's other paths that are kind of new opportunities that and if you're looking into that um i think the short answer is no we haven't looked into that in the in the sense that um going to the to the community foundation or or others bill frazier and i did talk about you know the idea of going for more grants and things like that so that's that's certainly something that we can do um no one on our board is necessarily a um specialist in that area in grant writing and um we have some funding we can put towards that i think that there is uh just in that one instance though um if you look at the amount of money that um uh was given to mdc this year it was 75 000 the fact that we raised a good chunk over 200 000 and put it right directly into the community and and additionally funded that effort so that every dollar contributed was a dollar given to a um a business you know we funded all the administrative costs and all the production and and and all of that out of our our savings and we still have some savings to keep working and and moving um things forward so i i i think that our goal and as as a group um we're best put at taking the dollars that we have and leveraging them towards these efforts and and making direct deposits into the community as opposed to really becoming a administrative heavy organization where we have a you know a development person and a grant writer and and all of those things that that isn't really the direction we chose to go uh we went with a lean and and direct um structure where we just hire per job per you know as a as a project manager base and it's it's been very effective and we've been able to conserve our funds and and um really leverage that i do hear what you're saying and and we're not saying no to that i think we'll will look for funding but i think that there are many um towns and organizations looking for that funding uh similarly so my guess is that a group that isn't well practiced in that isn't going to be super successful you know where we don't have a history of grant writing or or grant administration so but just just to add to that though bill is that we we did um early in the summer um actually retain a lobbying firm to spend some time and energy lobbying the legislature to try to funnel recovery funds to Montpelier specifically and then other designated downtowns as well so we we have made some significant efforts to to do that there was you know there's always a lot of legislative process of course but we did spend some resource to to do what we can to get to get funds towards this community that's true that's a good point i didn't look at that as as in the same category but that's right we spent um quite a bit and we didn't just look at Montpelier we actually funded an entire statewide effort to bring funding to designated downtowns um so you know that's those are the kinds of things we are doing and we should have mentioned that you know i think that there's a lot that everybody on this board is doing in addition to all their other work and there isn't a person here that doesn't work as hard as they can for Montpelier when we have our board meetings and everything else i mean you know the enthusiasm is high and the belief is strong that we can have continue to have a high impact if you wish any other comments or questions for the mc crew okay well thank you again so much for all of your the time that you've given in your energy and enthusiasm from Montpelier thanks for all your work with the the men fund and you know just all the efforts that you have put forward on behalf of the the businesses and residents of Montpelier we're really we're very grateful we're thankful for you watching tonight we you know it's amazing what you all are doing it's incredible it really is i'll hang in there and we will support you however you ask great well thank you so much okay all right yeah all right have a good evening thank you okay um all right so we're at 937 i am inclined to not punt anything which i think is going to take us past 10 are you okay with that unless you want to punt something okay i'm getting some thumbs up so we're gonna keep going um right the next item is talking about public restrooms and for this i'm going to turn things over to Cameron um i'd like to walk through my memo um first i'd like to thank the chief gowens the chief fakers of funding uh chief gowens with the fire department dpw and the parks department and the homelessness task force for helping me with this memo and getting this research information together um generally i wanted to step through an overview of the situation um since the beginning of the covid pandemic the city of montpellier has had few open 24-hour restroom facilities available to residents and visitors this is not a direct outcome of the pandemic that's exclusive to montpellier even for mont this is country-wide and once open public facilities have closed this really does impact quite a lot of folks and the need outweighs the available resources all over our nation city staff has asked to look into options both short and long term to address this need in our community so we took efforts to get rough estimates for creating permanent restrooms uh including to begin work expanding the city's youth supported john units and expanding our understanding of what is available uh what available facilities are already in existence in the city you've already heard the budget update i want to make it very clear that these possible projects are all presented with the understanding that our city budget is in a historic shortfall and that we've been trying very hard to get required funding um through other means other than the city budget but we do know that these lack of restrooms is a holistic issue and need we are really do want to support this if this effort but do understand that it requires sort of a holistic community approach as well so the first part of our work included getting the current restroom location in hours that we know of so we collected information about local places that are currently open we also reached out to the state to learn more about their facilities to see if they can open any of their doors any of their buildings which we were told no because they're really also suffering from a lack of staff they don't have their cleaning staff in the buildings because they don't have staff in the buildings so they don't they don't have that available to them so um i also did not include places on this list that have high barriers for restroom use such as purchase requirements some of our gas stations etc are open very late but do require purchase use so i did not include those i have a list of our current available restroom locations that i know of this list is probably not exhaustive but it was a group effort to pull together right now the vermont history museum is open stays and sat through saturdays 10 to 4 the color covered library is open for specific hours city hall is open specific hours coverland farms gas station on berlin street is open 24 hours we were told that it does not require purchase for use of bathrooms we do have a few 24-7 accessible corda john units the city maintains two currently um i will get into this a little bit later but we have the potential for a third unit uh location is to be determined sponsored by the local nonprofit just basics they did just give us a their board approved funding to help us get another unit uh we did talk to the state about unlocking their two units that are available right to the left of the state house lawn uh those uh we've tested them they are currently unlocked and then um council member jack mccullough mentioned that there's an offer from b s ecu that they may have an additional port of john unit but that's unconfirmed at this time so that's really where we focused our efforts is to supply the community with more port of johns um we have been in active discussion with multiple local partners to expand the number of port of john units available i don't want to call out specifically the folks that we're working with now because i don't know if that's confirmed and i don't want to put any pressure on them but we are working with a few so our goal is to partner with them uh that are not in the flood plane which does become an issue in downtown moffillier to put accessible port of john units in parking lots we can either pay for and maintain them or we can get help and support from local agencies again like i said just basics a nonprofit here that normally does food supply um approved a one time five thousand dollar expense to sponsor a port of john unit until the spring uh location and timeline is to be determined we're trying to figure out with our street outreach workers what would be the best place to put that so we're also working pretty hard to create sort of a sponsorship campaign again trying to get folks to help us facilitate getting more units for people that includes things like hand washing stations as well so it's not just restrooms there's a couple other options that do cost funding or cost money including reopening the 24 seven police department restroom until city hall is open 24 or is open on a normal schedule the police department has hesitations and opening up that space uh we really cannot risk our officers at this point or our public um safety staff so normally the lobby bathroom is available at all hours by request um i realized that my memo doesn't go into the uh i stopped the sentence there i don't know why so i will go in and fix that and resend that but opening the pd restroom does require um a small amount of funds but funds nonetheless the hire a cleaner we don't have enough cleaning staff right now for the capacity of the 24 seven bathroom we'd also need to create a barricade of some variety to keep folks from wandering into our public dispatch area just for safety concerns so we're also trying to work very hard with local organizations to increase the amount of open restrooms besides reaching out to the state we have begun permitting discussions with both another way and good Sam two groups that work with those experiencing homelessness to expand our restroom options in town good Samaritan has begun the permitting process for already opening winter overflow shelter at christ church which would provide one accessible restroom and two non-accessible restrooms to our community inventory i do believe that would be for folks who are staying in the shelter so there's some long-term projects that we looked into and we priced out again these would be funding dependent if you did want to go investigate any of them but we do have a current grant open with another way in washington county mental health i wanted you to be aware of it's a seven hundred thousand dollar grant that has some funding going to another way to add expanded restroom and shower facilities along with a laundry room this work is delayed slightly due to state environmental impacts but another way is working through those and that grant has been approved and funded so i did look into some interesting toilet options such as the portland lou which is used in portland organ that is on average one hundred and forty one thousand dollars for installation and that does not include shipping because that is a very specific type of standalone toilet that they use in their parks there um um we also looked at the renovation of the information kiosk at 60 states tree we estimated that at about a 20 to 35 thousand dollar effort to install and connect to utilities um we also looked into the option of a i'm not going to try to pronounce it but it's a toilet type that incinerates waste um so it doesn't have to connect to utilities um but again that would also need to be a renovation of that space but that does cut the cost quite a lot but those are very specific um types of toilets that we don't have the expertise to maintain so we do have to think about that as well but we did but we did look into those options and we also looked into upfitting city hall um that was a cheaper option as well along with the incinerator toilets um probably we got it uh off the back of a napkin estimate around five to ten thousand dollars for outfits which would include gates um to make sure that people couldn't get up into our third floor or second floor but still maintaining um you know ada accessibility with our elevator because there's no way to get down there without walking downstairs we'd also need to install a new security camera so that our dispatch center could see that space uh there are some safety concerns with those restrooms uh the way that they're situated and in a small hallway there have been uh multiple reports of loitering and assaults in those bathrooms um that is just a small safety concern we're not trying to say that it's not possible we just wanted to give you all that information we also looked at composting toilets that we use in the park system those usually cost around ten thousand dollars uh there are some issues with those as well um normally they're supposed to work on a ten-year timeline but those that have high traffic fill up pretty quickly and so they don't actually decompose like they're supposed to so we have to pay a pretty high price to get those cleaned out because they don't have the time that they're supposed to be they're supposed to sit for five years and they're normally um the park's department says they're emptied out about 1.5 years um also there it has a significant impact to our staff as people inevitably from non-organics into those toilets and we actually have to fish those out um but if that is the term it is a viable possibility we have identified two potential locations for a composting toilet one in Blanchard Park and one in the state house path but that would need to be in partnership with the city or I apologize the state as it is their land then we also wanted to point out that this none of these things are off the table because we are looking for alternative funding opportunities we've already know that in February 2021 the community development program will be re-releasing their grant opportunity which does often fund capital projects which a lot of grants don't so we will be looking into that as an option for one of these proposals in the future my recommendation is really continuing to help get more portable like Porta John units out there I know they're not the best option but they're the one that we can afford right now because there's a lot of community support for them and I just want to say again that I appreciate all the support we've been getting from our local nonprofits and our businesses who have been willing to talk to us about that I also think that with those with our our understanding of what is out there for use of restrooms and working with our street outreach professionals that people will be able to locate those 24-hour access accessible places such as the Porta Johns and prevalent farms and really add that to to their resources that they know about I know it's not the best answer it's just the answer that I think we have right now so that that's the whole of my memo if you have any questions Donna go ahead just a wonderful report it just is so expansive I love it thank you thank you and if we could just get things posted that you know about and that you got the state to unlock their Porta Pots whoa I don't know how often they're unlocked but to see them unlocked once has never happened to me and I'm there a lot in one of their picnic tables so kudos kudos really I'll show that she's going to again he was the one who had the conversations with the state yes and and it's good of you to mention yes we need hand washing also so this has some really great short-term and long-term proposals thank you just thank you very much thank you other comments or questions jack go ahead I think thanks Cameron I think this is great I should point out that I got the idea of the state employees credit union came up because I was walking my wife's dog the other day and I noticed that they had construction going on over there and they had a Porta Potty there for the construction so I contacted a friend of mine who was on their board and said hey can is there any way we can just get the credit union to keep that there and keep it open at least through the winter for people to meet it and it's not sure jumping on that but they're definitely expressing an interest in in being part of this effort and and so I I think I forwarded that memo to to you Cameron I think that has has potential for being really being part of the solution I like the idea of you know started another way do you know how much the estimated cost of doing the the police department bathroom would be I do not I don't have an estimate from a cleaner right now that that we were able to turn around and I don't want to misquote what that cost is right now so that I don't have yet because that seems like a another pretty promising option because it's it's it's in an already existing facility doesn't have some of the same security issues that the city hall bathroom does and so I'd be interested in seeing us move forward on trying to make that happen we'll try to be more robust about asking for quotes no criticism intended of course that's fine thank you um before Donna goes any other city councilor have something they want to say uh go ahead Dan so well you know I I appreciate the memo as well I think it collects this information um that's badly needed a couple of issues strike me as uh relevant one is I don't I was thinking about this and I don't know if we have a metric for demand um you know what what is the need for bathrooms I mean we all agree that there's a need out there um but I'm struggling to to understand what that metric looks like and you know I think when we talked about this before we're really talking about two pretend two to three groups of people that are likely to use it or that we're aiming towards which would be obviously there's a there's a homeless population that needs um this resource um and that we're starting to see with some of the letters that we received from the transit center people uh that it's starting to have an impact on other people um but there's also the idea of tourists and um you know people who happen to be downtown with a need um but I it just strikes me that I'd like to have a better sense about what this need really and truly looks like um because I think that may drive what we're thinking about because what what seems to be establishing is you know if we have a port-a-body at vsccu too at the state house if we were able to open up the police station if we were able you know and there were the two continuing the two port-a-bodies you know by city hall as well as the cumberland farms you know what what do those numbers look like and are we still not having it are we still having an issue or not issue with meeting that need um you know I'm sorry go ahead well I wanted to respond to that um so I apologize if I cut you off I think um first off we're getting some reports from our street outreach workers and our um you know embedded clinician and the police department of a real need after hours for a lot of folks who are on the street and um that's one opera that's one um and really valid and important that demographic that we're trying to get here um but also you know I hear and it's just in the year I've been here I hear almost every time there's a farmers market why isn't there a port-a-john at the farmers market why isn't there a toilet for me to use farmers market a lot of those places downtown are open on Saturdays except businesses who may not have an open and available restroom for the public so this is just for me hearing it anecdotally and that is a problem that most of this data is anecdotal if you will but I think if you um sort of look outside of Montclair itself this has been a national trend that you know public restrooms really are needed if you think about the folks who may have a medical concern that can't wait or hold it for as long as they might be able to get home I think it's a it's part of being a welcoming and open community um so data real hard data or not I think it's an important goal to strive for even through grant funding if that's because that isn't something that I'd like to stop working on for sure right well it just it just strikes me that that seems to be the missing piece of this this puzzle or the next piece that we as we as we think about these because I you know if I think about how how this is you know what what we're trying to put together is can we piece together a short-term solution to deal with an immediate problem um where we can where we can say you know we have five six seven places where people can go to use the restroom and x number of them available after hours of 24 7 in locations that make sense but then you know I think that then shapes how we think about this long term and then what kind of resources we want to either think about what we have to put behind this solution or um you know how how we think about it because I was thinking about the last time we talked about it when I was proposing you know sort of that Tokyo toilet model and I think one of the fair criticisms of that is well we may not need it in one spot we may need it in three spots and you know we may need we may need to think differently about it and I think that's that's fair but I think that's really driven in part by figuring out what this needs looks like let's go Lauren and then Donna and then I I suspect there may be some comments from the public and just just two quick thoughts kind of piggybacking on Dan's point of you know who are the populations we're trying to serve here um one I do think you know we've brought up before when we've talked about the police department as an option I think that does not you know certain populations I think will not use that so we should just know that that could serve some functions but I think it's you know it would not meet other people's needs so we should just be aware of that if that was going to be part of it and part of our investment um and then just thinking about kind of the locations where right now even like signage I don't know how people would even know if you come to town like these are all kind of hidden or you wouldn't necessarily know where to find them or how to look for them so some of it to to the point of you know now that you've done all this great work compiling some information some of which I think is new to to me certainly um you know how do we let people know this in a way and even visitors you know is there some way of providing clear signage if you're downtown and that there are actually places where you can go if you need to so just something else to think about yeah thank you uh Donna uh thank you I wanted to go back to Cameron's statement about all the Porty Johns is there cleaning included on the ones we have and like Vermont State Employees Credit Union are they going to maintain it and keep it clean because that makes a big difference and as I as you all know I picnic almost every lunchtime by the state house it's great to see people and those Porty pots are never open and the Law Station Theater had an event that they arranged and got approved on the state house lawn but they would not open those Porty pots for them they had to rent their own Porty pots I mean they were willing to pay the state to use theirs but they had to rent another one so I hope you really make some progress with them but tourists after tourists would come up to me especially the picnic table at 133 and say do you know the state office building is open I mean restaurants don't let you eat there of those who started eating in unless you're eating there most of them are going to move to take out once we many of them may move to take out once we close in for the winter so bathrooms even the ones that you assume aren't available to people I know I time myself how long I can be gone from home by my bladder it's like okay I better do this and get back in two hours or I stop at city hall on the right day but I can't use the police department anymore so I mean it's a real issue just for everyday people shopping and doing things it's just amazing but for tourists as fall was and all through the summer it was really bad I mean I just never was on the street without somebody asking me for a bathroom I wish I kept the data damn because it was just incredible and I couldn't refer them to any place once the police department closed I used to send people there so and posting so when we do know that there's some open we really need to publish it for our people so they can share with everybody they see on the street to know where they're at I mean it's a really issue I really one thing I liked about the Portland Lou that was part of this report was reminded me of all the public bathrooms in Europe I mean you may have to pay 35 cents but there was always a bathroom available within a relatively walking distance and I would like us to move towards that when we have the resources to do so that's all I'm getting them clean it's really important to keep in I did want to address that your question at the beginning about cleaning the city is paying for extra cleaning for the two that we monitor and that is the level that we want to have people sponsor that love the idea of having a having sponsored port bodies it's really interesting that having recently to a few places that attract tourists I see porta potty's all the place that I never used to see seems to be that is what people are doing now you know in in these circumstances so you know it's not it isn't the most desirable but it seems to be where places are going that are attracting lots of people in and in cities and first locations just to get a non-scientific observation all the state rest rest stops have it now um yeah before we go to Dan a comment from the public yes matter of matter Stephen worker go ahead Stephen porta potty's uh don't cut it by any stretch um you know I don't think Donna you're going to welcome anybody coming out of the port body knowing there's no hand washing to join your picnic just the whole idea that we're in a pandemic seems to be lost on this conversation I've been raising this conversation for a solid year and some of you tell me this is the first year here but um city center used to be the primary public bathroom everybody knew the code uh and orca was there as well which was a secondary public bathroom um we we have we really need to address this in an entirely different way not uh publishing other bathrooms that are we're going to soon be overloaded and then create a reaction of closure we really need to tackle this in a comprehensive take the low-hanging fruit which is clearly sitting all baseless bathrooms rear entrance and transit center grab the low-hanging fruit that we have immediate control over and deal with the cleaning issues deal with the security and the video issues uh as uh Cameron pointed out or don't point it out people are not going to many people on the street are not going to want to go on the police station and the police station doesn't really want them there they they've made that clear uh they i i saved the no trespass obviously uh had served on one of the homeless you know persons uh i thought it was fascinating that this person who's most likely to need the police has a no trespass order to go to police so this is how discombobulated this whole thing is uh for the bodies our example is a perfect example of the lack of dignity we show both both our homeless and our tourists um in a pandemic you need hot wash hot washing and washing um we could have negotiated at a time with city center before neck he moved out we missed that opportunity uh that was subject to one of the public records requests which has still not been addressed with sit with uh that you've been lied to about that when there were permit conditions that numerous people in town even people who worked on that building there were permit conditions assigned to that first public restroom being available and they were lost or hidden or uh you know slipped in between the wrong file um but that's that's a different problem uh permanent public restrooms uh need to be part of a plan should be a design competition possibly you know the city would be well uh wise to invest a few thousand hours and getting somebody like Lord Joyce just to go and come up with a plan of where the lease costs uh the 60 state street location will require plumbing to be for washing even if you were to do a incinerating toilet there um so we there are no inexpensive options other than where already exists we should try to negotiate with landlords of vacant properties that have plumbing in them and make even a six-month or a 12-month uh agreement to use and clean those those restrooms but this is this is a public health emergency and for y'all to say oh but you know fortified is your final I've been telling you for six months that people are crapping in the alleys in the line in the church gardens so it's it's hard for me to maintain calm in uh you know convivial conversation full tone about this when you've neglected the emergency for far too long and uh I would encourage you to deal with the low hanging fruit no one's going to walk to cumberland farms and that would be you know I wouldn't even tell one of the little ladies on the street out walking where to find a bathroom oh yeah go across the river and have a block about that quarter mile and you'll find a gas station it's like it's absurd y'all y'all are really um not taking the appropriate leadership on this thanks okay thank you Stephen uh Dan well I had a question actually about the um the port of bodies and the expense which is and I I don't know if this is even at all feasible um but it just struck me that some of the cost obviously these port of bodies is that they have to be maintained um and disposed of the contents that are cleaned out um is there any capacity in the city to take over any of that given our sewer treatment plan um so that the owned by wind river and we're not supposed to do anything with them no I understand obviously the ones we rent there we wouldn't be able to but is there um any possibility as a sort of way of trying to drive that service in-house and possibly bring the cost down or is that you're saying that you'd want DPW to buy and service their own yes to the extent that you know with the with the sewer plan um I would hesitate to say yes in because of the fact that it's a pretty specific type of equipment that they use to clean that out and then we would have to buy that type of specific equipment which would then defeat the purpose of cost savings that probably answers my question it just it just occurred to me as we're talking about that um you know what that what that option would even look like we'd also be able to clean the equipment in-house either we'd have to outsource that as well right I think sort of shifting off of that hairball idea um which uh you know one of the problems I think with the portland blue is is that it it seemed to be an outdoor um bathroom and that it you know it had mesh it did not have I would wonder how it would function in a cold winter environment um and it didn't seem to have a sink either um the sink is on the outside of the portland blue okay um because I think if we're thinking about um long-term solutions for this um you know obviously we are talking about running water hot water soap um and data toilet um as the functional parts of this I would I would share the the sort of misgivings about the city hall bathroom um in the basement it seems like that's a security risk um I think that creates a situation that's not safe for um people using it it also creates an unnecessary situation that the city might have to become involved because we own that property um and the potential liability um you know I think you know as as not great as port of bodies are um you know they seem to be the way we're going to get across the finish line with this um with this problem and you know we have to recognize as well um that there's you know they're part of trying to understand this is you know we're setting up sort of the the basic basement threshold of what if someone came into the city without any resources what would be their facility um whereas when we think about you know the different populations this might serve there are going to be people that will be able to go into a facility make a purchase and use their restroom um you know the the you know the tourist or the um the resident who finds themselves downtown can can afford to buy the package of gum that gets them admission to the to the bathroom um so I think it it's really going to come down to what what the population looks like but I guess I'll beat the drum that I beat before which is that I think we have to think about this as an opportunity to create something that is lasting when we think about the final next chapter solution um and the long-term solution of how we create public facilities um and they should be facilities that are sustainable but also facilities that we have a certain amount of pride in in the city and having those bathrooms public bathrooms as as something that you know like the european bathrooms are um not things that are hidden in corners but that are readily findable and um are worth worth looking at on the outside um from an architectural point of view from um a cityscape point of view you know I just building on that I um if this was a normal fiscal year I would be very interested in the prospects of converting that information booth that's right downtown to a bathroom for 20 to 35 thousand dollars that you know again in a normal fiscal year that would feel doable to me even if it's 100 off and it's you know 70 thousand dollars that that still might be worth it having said that this is not a normal fiscal year um so I don't really know where that leaves us um for that and I don't know where that leaves us even for some of the the short-term solutions it sounds like we've got um some basically like emergency need um solutions in the port bodies and that is you know that's that's what we've got right now um and I think we'll probably just have to um I mean I think this could be one of the things that is on the table that we discuss uh alongside other budget considerations but you know we'll just have to see where where it lands um I don't think there's any other action that we necessarily need to take this evening on this um Lauren and Dan I see you have uh comments uh and then I think I'm anticipating that we're going to move on so Lauren go ahead just really quickly just seeing all in one place the um the hours and stuff that various um public restrooms are open through the community just I know the issues been raised before about like having running water and being able to clean yourself in a different way um so you know making sure our street outreach worker has that nice list that you compiled you know so that people you know again all of this is not ideal and then this terrible you know budget situation but making sure that at least what is available people um you know it's getting into the right hands of people might not realize all the you know library has their windows the store yeah all of that so anyway I think that's a great resource you put together and hopefully it can kind of help you some of the emergency response are the good Samaritan street outreach worker uh Don Little who you've spoken to and is on the homeless list task force helped me put this list together and so she has it and is aware of it thank you great thanks and Dan go ahead sorry I just had three things that I think might merit um not necessarily emotion but some some action one is I think this question about population strikes me as a homelessness task force item to to identify what what is the population look like and what is the need for we we have numbers okay but I mean doesn't match up to the need I mean is is that well that's where we're getting the reports of the need is from the homelessness task force from our street outreach workers and our embedded clinician we have right now because the state is still holding people in the hotels holding people's wrong word allowing people to stay in the hotels through our general voucher system that is in place um our population has swelled because of that but the population on the street is still relatively low um and and stable I say relatively low because it's not low anyone who's on the street it's pretty high number so and we're between 20 30 people right now actively is what I'm being told um but that but the the the issue mainly is location not necessarily so that's the the number that we have right I guess I guess it's it's a matter of like matching up with like location as well as you know I I mean I don't know what uh what one if you know if you have if you have 10 10 people you know in a particular area what does that translate to as far as need for facilities does that mean one board body two board bodies or you know I guess that's what I'm looking for as as we continue this conversation and then so that just strikes me I don't know if they're if the task force would be willing to to tackle that kind of question but it just seems to me that's the data where we're needing the other piece of information that might might help is also the bathrooms that you've listed um how many have where are the sort of hand washing elements to it you know sanitizer versus actual running water and then I'm wondering if the third thing I was thinking about is whether Montpelier are alive or another group would be able to give us any sense about you know sort of visitor need um you know what those what those numbers look like I'm muted I apologize um so OSHA's recommendations for Porta John numbers is I think a good ballpark and I'll just read that um one toilet for 20 employees or less so one per 20 folk and the ones we have now have hand sanitizer that's restocked twice a week but I don't believe that they have running water options I will say that I don't want to throw out too many hypotheticals because that can get a lot of folks hopes up but we are talking to some folks at the state about maybe getting a FEMA um type restroom facilities which are those red cross larger ones that have shower facilities and I I said I don't really like talking about potentials because they are that they are potentials and I don't want us to get excited about something that might not could happen but that is we understand that that's a need and we're trying to get in low cost no cost options for help to get us there great um Madam Mary can I offer a closing insight on this um well actually I think there may be a couple other comments it's not necessarily closing but if you'd like to jump in now is okay and then we'll go jack and then I think we have one other person who might want to comment um so go ahead Stephen with regards to the uh portable trailer type I've mentioned that before I mentioned it at the homeless task force the time is now to put any plans together the main thing about citing a toilet trailer or a shower trailer is they need the is the citing they can be maintained they have self-contained fresh water self-contained wastewater but then you're going to have to wrestle with the sanctions camping or the sanctions congregating if you want to move to Gertin Park you're not going to want to put a toilet trailer there so you've got this kind of chasing your tail with unresolved issues that have been unresolved for over a year but now it's the time to think about those because there is going to be left over CRF funds and if the monies are committed before December 20th or December 30th to purchase uh a shower trailer or more than one and or same with toilet trailers those are legitimate long-term useful uh investments that can be relocated to another place of higher need or a disaster zone uh once we do get permitted bathroom spilled but we need to be thinking about and putting a plan together now so the this this has been on the list of the charge for the almost this task force for over a year and it's not been done until now so that's an example let's not wait for but just as an example that you go to Shaw's bathroom clothes you go to obvi shaw's not even customers could customers could use that capital copies same way you know wrap around their same way you basically got a serious problem for tourists that I talked to and asked me where to go and in the joke on the street is that oh the new way finding signs will point the way to all the non-restrooms you know so uh let's get serious about this thanks thank you Steven um all right jack and then um Morgan do you want to say something about this I was the reason I was on was just to say that Morgan contacted me and he wanted to get on to so I wanted to make sure we didn't close it out before he had a chance fair enough no worries uh Morgan go ahead uh thank you uh mayor and thank you jack I appreciate it so if you will indulge me a bit I'd like to speak about public restrooms and the need for access to them and also what Steve Whitaker was talking about with needing to be able to you know the proper having access uh proper hygiene and you know wash one's hands and stuff and how brutal it can be in the winter uh period but then you know needing to relieve oneself and I don't know if any of you have a lived homeless without permanent housing but I have three years including the last 12 years during the excuse me during the last roll-around and you know I remember having to walk the streets during the winter because I didn't have a place anywhere to rest and be and sometimes yeah I went over to sharing playing farms and paid rent for a cup of coffee you know to be able to sit there for a little bit and they don't always let you for very long if they know you you know living homeless and then you leave the place and with me with coffee it goes right through me and I gotta go to the bathroom where do I go and think please what if it was you what if it was one of your family don't you neighbor anybody can pretty much anybody can end up living in the homeless you know there's a lot of concern about the torsion stuff but what about people without anything and think about it please you can see the pain I mean right now just we delivered it it was real hard please do something this is just awful you know with people whether it's during the daytime or the nighttime and I know I live through it and thank goodness and all those people who helped me get out are still hurting from those experiences and you know people need more than talk they need more than good intentions they need something meaningful and you have the power you have the duty representing our city to do something about it you know these citizens too please please do something thank you thank you Morgan for thank you Morgan for sharing your experience and you know we certainly hear you and we'll certainly have to take it in all into consideration I mean there's I'm grateful that we're that we've collected the information that we have so far about the options that are available and you know we'll be considering how to move forward so grateful that you were able to jump into the conversation just to keep them up it's already cold out there you know during the daytime and then at night you know you got people sleeping out there maybe they're fortunate enough to manage I mean me yet when I didn't have any place to culture or say you know I was walking the streets literally I'd sit in that little bus stop that used to be on Taylor Street and sit there hope the cops didn't come by or nothing you know it's like just winter's coming up you know and it's already cold at night and you know just people they they need some place okay and I'd rather have people housed you know I'm on for you know getting people housed permanent housing that's what you know does the trick I know you know I've been houses well in 2009 yeah no I'm I'm also so glad that sounds like the permitting is moving forward for the warming shelter at Christchurch I think that's really encouraging as well yeah but that's where they've trimmed it down to eight people as I understand it you know yeah keep in mind keep in mind that the need is greater than that and so we have to do something and you know you want to do something meaningful you know we need to invest in permanent safe affordable housing particularly for those most in need and and the other things that are needed to um help people get housed yeah you know it's just essential it's important and we need to do we don't need to talk we need to do we have to help people you know we don't need people suffering and getting they'll and dying on the streets you know do you want that really I mean seriously ask yourself do you want somebody to end up in the hospital or some institution or dead because that could happen okay if we don't deal with this stuff really you know and remember COVID-19 you know just and then the flu season you know just compounds is so you know I I want a second everything that Steve Whitaker said because I support his efforts along these lines and I just and I also want to give a half tip to Cameron Cameron you did really good and thank you thanks for that that I'll get up thank you Morgan okay so council I just want to say thank you and also I will continue to work on getting signs I thought that was a thank you for that feedback um and just expanding what we have going on right now our network of what we've already started and then I will come back with um like we will be looking for grant proposals that fit this project okay all right thank you so we're going to move on um I know it's I recognize it's 10 30 um hopefully we're doing okay here still team um we have to talk about Halloween it is coming up um so let's just we're going to jump right into that um and I assume that's also Cameron it is okay I will very very quickly go through my full like memo but I will very brief highlight since it is available to folks um I think it is important to call out that there has been an outbreak in Montpelier there has been uh at least 12 new COVID-19 cases in folks associated with both youth league and adult players in the hockey arena so I just want to sort of reiterate how important it is for us to continue wearing masks and following guidelines um travel impacts have also been pretty huge in the last few weeks the number of travelers who can come to Vermont has fallen almost almost three million since last time I updated you it's only at 1.8 million folks that can travel in our area at this point which is a huge drop from like the 4.8 it was last time I talked to you um the state did tell us that they will be letting us know about winter sports by the end of October which may impact some rec uh of programs um uh there is a simpler PPP forgiveness for $50,000 loans or less through the US Small Business Administration um so there is a loan forgiveness application that's like really pared down and easy for folks to um there's a very low barrier on how to get that so that is also important to call out um also you can see it's behind me we have opened city hall successfully on Wednesdays for people who want to come here and participate via zoom um I'm seated in where the public would be um if they want to participate in the zoom meeting and have comments with you face to face um so that went well we'll consider tonight a trial run and people may be here next meeting um we are opening up our recreation department uh the building itself the rec building for rentals uh on a limited basis with a lot of guidelines so um just letting you know that we are taking that step and then um I did want to call out um that another way is looking for donations um in the form of tarps, tents, sleeping bag, bags and backpacks and anything kind of related to that but they are not accepting clothing so I just wanted to call that out before I jump into Halloween but that's my general updates for COVID regarding Halloween it's our recommendation that each residents family review CDC guidelines regarding Halloween to assess the risk level of Halloween activities that they want to participate in um if residents plan on either collecting or handing out candy the CDC recommends adopting a one-way trick-or-treating method which they still consider a moderate risk for families this sort of means that families would put out individually wrapped goodie bags or treats that are lined up for folks to grab while continuing to social distance so their example was putting bags of candy at the end of your driveway for people to pick up on their way around a neighborhood again they still consider that moderate risk but that is way less risk than traditional methods of trick-or-treating or like trunker treats which they also list as high-risk activities that should be avoided they also called out um avoiding events like indoor parties haunted houses hay rides and traveling to other communities we as the city are not hosting any traditional Halloween related events our fire department will not be handing out candy and um in general that's what the state is espousing as well is following the CDC safety guidelines and so that is what we've traditionally been following for COVID-19 and that's our recommendations also at this point I don't know of any street closure requests nor are we closing any streets for Halloween just add to that um mobility are alive in the downtown are not doing their traditional downtown you know trick-or-treat I will say you know Cameron I spent a lot of time talking about this and in our position has been from the beginning and I think you've somewhat adopted this that we the city are not public health experts we don't have the capacity to to make these kind of determinations so we have been deferring to the state and the CDC to provide these guidelines and I think that really remains our our position but I will I will say and I haven't had this conversation with Cameron last few days I've gotten a lot of sort of requests like what's the city gonna tell us to do and and I think people are expecting us to say something and I think you know what I've always said hey it's you know the state and the state has really not said much about anything about it just well practice you know have good practices so I don't want to have a long conversation unnecessarily or I wonder if we shouldn't say you know something to the extent that you're not public health experts these are the guidelines we if people are going to do this but we urge people to exercise extreme caution and make your own personal decision about whether you're going to participate in this I mean I you know it was up to me personally just based on my own hunch I'd say don't do it but I don't have any expertise that says that I don't have any knowledge I don't have any you know science behind it so and I think and it's not a regular activity right we can't tell people they can't walk up and down a sidewalk and knocking somebody's door and and you know it's not a city sponsored event per se so I think but I do think people are looking to city leadership to provide some sort of statement some sort of comment or tone so that'll be quiet Conor go ahead is it worth putting out a press release just saying basically what you just said Bill it's I know it's a press drop off the call there but I think that's good like common sense and you know I I don't think the state is going to put anything out so I think it might just be worth circulating the or press that makes sense to me Donna go ahead well I think you also could refer them to the Vermont health department and they have a little section on Halloween yeah it mostly echoes exactly what the CDC says yes but I mean if they wanted something for Vermont directly related I think that's the way to do it it's referring to the experts how do you all feel um uh Dan and then Jay I mean I what I'm hearing from from Bill and from from others is basically you know some some clear message that any city or Montpelier alive sponsored activity is not going to happen there's not going to be street closures there's not going to be fires department can't be hand out there's not going to be a downtown um and that what what remains then is if individual citizens wish to do Halloween we would recommend that they follow both the state and CDC CDC public health guidelines which which clearly do not recommend people physically hand out candy but have have prepackaged candy available for a non person-to-person handoff right and I think we want to be careful about so this again this is you know I'm not a public health person I'm not a lawyer so I'm going to play both and say um that you know we want to be careful by I mean if we say it's okay in any way shape or form and then there's a break out yeah you know it was like well the city said it was okay I mean I think I'd rather us be on the side of caution and saying you know we're not so sure this is a great idea it's really up to you we're not doing anything about it here's the guidelines state and state and state right you're on your own all the guidelines are about assessing your own risk and even this sort of like a bridge trick or treating is medium risk and so they're recommended up like activities from the CDC and the state or just stay home and do fun Halloween things at home you know so I'm going to jump in line here and say I mean we did just have 12 cases in Montpelier I think it's okay for us potentially to say that publicly perhaps an oppressed release that we recommend that you don't go trick-or-treating that we want to minimize the risk for Montpelier we cannot forbid you from doing it but we're going to recommend that you don't and this is a year to celebrate at home I'm just going to say that I'm seeing a bunch of head nods and some thumbs up yeah so but I also jumped the gun here so Jay and then Lauren I'll just two things one is for the for those of us who may who have kids in the school district or may have seen we we all got an email from the superintendent right before the meeting started to say that there was a positive test in the school district so you have another reason to to encourage overly safe behavior but then the other piece of that more related to Halloween too is I think that it's worth mentioning not that it necessarily needs to be part of the press release is that I've been in touch with a lot of the folks up on College Street and for the most part all if most if not all will not be participating in handing out candy and and I think you know we we know that in terms of large gatherings besides what happens downtown which is not happening that tends to be you know a significant you know a huge gathering gathering point on Halloween and they have you know kind of you know it's up to individuals like we said but the general the general thinking is that they will not be participating and so I will encourage I agree with everything's been said about the the city putting out a statement but then I'll also encourage them to put out on you know social media front porch forum and let folks know that you know there that folks who live on College Avenue will not be handing out candy so don't you know please don't show up expecting to to find it yeah that's fair I think we could in addition to say there are neighborhoods that have already committed to not participating in in Halloween trigger or trick-or-treating really um Lauren go ahead uh yeah I mean I I just agree with the the rest of it I think clarity on you know with a really strong statement and I mean because it is a personal choice but it affects others like I want people knocking on my door I don't you know it's it does affect other people and then it could you know exacerbate this community spread we're already seeing so I think clear wondering about the can network also putting out information through their network and um one other thought that's getting really late and it'll come back to me oh I was thinking we could put in that statement like examples of the kinds of things like it might have even been in that that your memo camera of you know to a scavenger hunt with your own kids around your house or like there's all these examples out there right now of you know so try to be like here are the kinds of safe options that there are like make it fun for your kids but we don't need this unnecessary risk so that could be another piece oh the last thing sorry um I was wondering too if and I don't know if it will go into press release or maybe there's something like the city just puts out of like um you know all the money you're going to save on buying halloween candy consider get contributing to a local popular business or I don't know something like that yeah yeah uh yeah go ahead I'm not sure people are stuff are reframing from buying candy even if they're not going to wind up giving it up to little kids but I think this is all good tell people not to do it and then we'll just eat all the candy ourselves there you go with yeah obviously it's not you know this is otherwise not going to buy multiple bags of candy for the one or two kids that come to my house to be prepared that's right you never know um okay so I I don't it doesn't seem to me that we need a motion on that it seems like we're all pretty much least statement in the morning saying that we recommend that you're not have trick or treat that there won't be sponsored city activities or support and you know if you do it you're on your own and here's the CDC guidelines thank you for the arrest of people who do it yeah yeah right okay oh sorry Dan I like the idea of sending out a discouraging message maybe coupling it with the reminder that there are there have been outbreaks and that the safest behavior is staying home and eating your own giant bag of candy um so dr felici recommended okay you know like we've got some clarity on that which is great um and we're gonna move on oh gosh gotta hold on to all the brain functionality I still have um okay so we're gonna jump into we're gonna do the other business and then we're gonna do um nominating uh a representative to the SRO committee and then we're gonna talk about the transit center and then we're at council reports and we're done oh gosh okay so um the above and beyond award do you want to do that film I can do it quickly I you know I don't believe he's on the call James Richardson got the write-up James Richardson and Richardson I'm sorry that's late James Richardson uh not Williamson um and he's you know DPW folk and I think the write-up explains but he's really been putting forward he was nominated by a couple of people so we're happy to recognize him um this has really been a well-received program you know we mentioned that um employees like it they like nominating other people they like some really it's really been a good thing and so that's all we don't need to belabor that if you were here I'd say more but thank you James and please pass along to James our congratulations um for a job well done it's always delightful to see uh who gets nominated for the news very grateful don't like that maybe a card on this though um I think it might be nice just to pass it around and we can all sign us maybe at the police station when we do the warrant put that in every time we have one of these you can expect a card to be put at the police station that's a great idea it's a really good idea cool okay um the next part of the other business is uh relocation of the garden uh or the the pocket of the structure the pergola um at the the pocket park um I wonder if I should turn this over to Bill or or I can explain it as well you know I mean we've been talking about this um it's been a challenge and there's been a thought you know the new pump track is opening I think you've probably got forwarded to all an email inviting us to a grand opening next Monday and the thought is that um this might be a good place for to use a nice looking existing structure where people may want to sit and watch their kids ride on the pump track or even rest while they're they're using it uh and I think the parks commission's okay with that I know they are so I think it would provide you know just two issues at once okay um any thoughts on this Jack go ahead when we discussed this last time um there's also a suggestion that uh somebody talked to Paige about her thoughts about moving ahead and do you know I don't know if that was done uh Madam Mayor I did talk to Paige about it and she agrees with me that we should address the underlying problems that that are causing the uh attempt to move it um and I also know just in the way of public comment here that the since the food meals are no longer being distributed they have the litter they've been making much much more of an effort to keep it clean I've asked both the public works and the parks department to do one pressure wash through it uh it's been much more orderly the sculpture has been remounted so I I don't and I know that some of your council members ask that this be discussed so I think you need to table this for a future meeting this is not it seems like you're uh disregarding the need for it to be discussed and already making plans to have moved it and it's it's not proper process on the agenda for discussion okay um thank you Stephen uh Donna I also had a talk with Paige but she did do a posting on Front Porch Forum which made it very clear that she felt it shouldn't be moved that as Steve said the underlying problems should be addressed versus changing the park but if we are going to move it I do think the pump station is a good place for it to go and have a good use for uh people and families around the pump station I prefer we try to deal with the problem but I know it's difficult other thoughts on this uh Dan go ahead I I mean I I appreciate um you know that and I think we are trying to address some of the underlying problems but um I just don't think this is the right place for this particular uh structure I think it's it's at a narrow point in the bike path um and I think it just creates flow problems and I think it would have a much better use up at the pump station so I would support it being moved um but I don't think moving it is precludes the idea of addressing the underlying problems and continuing to work on those I just don't think that this structure at this particular place works any other thoughts I think we've got bigger emergencies on our hands right now to deal with and to punish the homeless folks for using that facility so um I would ask you to table it and take it up once you've got a better sense of what the priorities and what else is neglected and we can follow up the play right now um so first of all uh just one note Stephen please do um wait until you're recognized before you just jump in um second thing um seems like there's um some uh differing of opinion which is okay um on what to do with this any other thoughts from council um and it is okay if you think you would like more time to think about it um Jack and then Jay I came into this tonight not thinking this would be at all controversial I think it would be appropriate to uh to lay it on the table and to consider it at another meeting okay he's no urgency to this in terms of timing uh Jay um yeah I mean you know I think that there's there's a couple issues here I think that the structure should be moved and I think moving into the pump track makes a lot of sense I think where it sits now um doesn't make sense it doesn't work but seeing how um you know it has been used the idea of just sort of uprooting it without having any um communication with community outreach with the homelessness task force um and everything that's happening there any sort of plan um it feels premature because there it is not necessarily a time sensitive thing um you know the the pump track is is you know just opening on Monday um and you know I think that you know if we ask the staff to work work with the the with the task force and and others that come up with at least a transitional plan I think makes sense um yeah fair enough thank you um and just for for context I so I've had multiple conversations with uh folks who hang out there uh about their thoughts on it moving and there was a range I mean there were folks who were like in all honesty there were folks that were like I hope it goes away and there were folks that were like I'd be really sad if it moved um and so you know as with so many things there wasn't consensus um about that uh but I um I also think it doesn't hurt to you know make a decision at a another meeting and have a little more time for conversation um and that sort of intermediate um plan so uh unless so it's um if someone would like to make a motion that that would be okay too um would anyone like to make a motion well question I guess is uh you know if if the consensus is that we're sort of tabling this to another meeting um do we do we need a motion because it's not as if this is an application that we have to move to a date certain um you're just looking for well so if my um presumption in asking for a motion was if anyone wanted to make a decision about it tonight if you don't if we if we want to just put it on the next meeting I don't think we need a motion we can just put it on the next agenda yeah I I have no need to make this motion or make it happen tonight at least okay okay well we'll take it up um at our next meeting then um fair enough okay oh gosh we're close team I'm sorry it's so late uh all right so nominating someone for the school resource officer um they are looking to have one representative from council serve on this committee to review the SRO position um and is there someone from the council who is interested in being that person yeah go ahead Jay well yeah I've um uh I've had a number of conversations with Jim Murphy about participating um being that person um you know ultimately um and Bill I don't know if you were maybe potentially going to mention this later but the school board um turned down our offer to split the fees uh with uh with the facilitator because ultimately they want to be able to own and manage the process which I think is a was a good decision um but um Jim was looking looking to us to to recommend somebody to um to them to so they're going to be making all the appointments to the committee but they were looking to the council to make a recommendation for who we'd like to to represent um to represent us and and I'd be more than happy to um I think I'd bring a unique perspective to the SRO position having been the project manager um for the playground for a couple years I worked directly with Matt um I've also and then the transitions over to Diane um I also happen to be in a unique position where I have one child in each Montpelier school right now the elementary school the middle school and the high school um and so I thought that I could you know bring a you know the council's perspective the city's perspective to the conversation um as well as uh uh you know have a unique uh background and context around what the role of that the S of the world the SRO plays in schools and um and sort of the impact that that position has uh at at each of the the Montpelier schools so certainly open to conversation or if our others are interested or have any questions but I'd be more than happy to represent the council on the committee okay super um other thoughts or comments or other folks who want to uh potentially be that person uh Donna go ahead I don't want it yay Jay I'm glad you volunteered but I would like us to take it up sometimes so as a council as a whole could at least discuss a little bit more of our perspective from the SRO I think that is different than the than the school and so my only issue would be I feel that we also need to give Jay support of another point of view than just the school's point of view um and it may be with um along the way here as you all are meeting um to give us updates you know how what are you learning how's the conversation going um that's my thing um absolutely and I just so folks have a sense of what the process will look like um it's it's a fairly accelerated process the idea is that the they'll appoint everybody to the committee at they being the board um at their next meeting which is a week from or which is next week um but uh and then that that committee would have until the end of the year to make a recommendation around the SRO position um and then would have and until then until March to make broader recommendations around uh school safety um interaction with the police department and with the community etc um it's going to be a fairly um it is a fairly aggressive it is a very aggressive timeline um and as as the board as the school board has set it up there will be 14 people on the committee um so it thankfully there will be a facilitator um and uh and certainly as we go through that process which would be a few meetings in end of October into November and December I'll certainly be um the laying back and reporting back as as how those congress conversations go any emotion there uh I think I'd be good yeah okay I'll move the recommend uh Jay to the SRO task force second it okay any further discussion I really enjoy this is the second I'm great I hope we do that more of that okay so uh all in favor please say aye hi hi oh dear oh gosh we're getting punchy okay we live live lying prosper no okay thank you Jay for stepping up for that very grateful um okay we are getting there um I know this was not exactly on the list of things that we that I mentioned earlier but as a part of Kelly's uh presentation on the budget uh she mentioned that we don't have a or she wanted some clarity on who was on the CIP three I thought that we had appointed people to the CIP we did yeah we appointed three people to the CIP from from this group apparently the transportation committee would like somebody on uh and so the and they've actually named someone so I think the question is who's actually on this committee who uh you know it's obviously a committee of the city council but you can include whoever you choose so I think Kelly was just like who's who's on it so well I mean any member of the public is welcome to attend so there's that but I don't know I'm done you have a thought I mean I don't know Jack was also at that meeting for the Montpelier infrastructure committee there was a person chosen to represent that committee that wasn't to interfere with the council's representation they just want to come and participate and be advocating for for destinians and cyclists right well I mean we just understood that they were intent supposed to be you know a voting member or whatever I mean we've never for those that have done it before we haven't really had right you just talk you share yes come up with it but in the end of the day it's the three council members of the committee right yeah well I hope you come to a lot of those meetings and I know I'm no longer a voting member because they're so interesting so is there anything beyond that that you think that was it okay great uh any other comments on that okay great so I think we have one more item before council reports uh Donna transportation um I'm sorry I missed this when I went through over the weekend and it wasn't till I was reviewing the agenda this contract for the transit center bill they have listed like office hours great office hours Monday to Friday 8 to 6 but then there's all these conditions where they can change it and then they say that we have a 20% match coming from the city but they don't put any amount in there nor do we put any cap in there so that was a concern and and the contract is set for a two-year term I guess that's safe uh and then we evaluated versus longer or shorter so those are my three questions one was their office hours is there any way to account to get them to really be staffing that place and have it open and some in context about our obligated match so I'll take the first crack camera really handled most of this uh so she has the details so in terms of their office hours they don't have the money so their funds as you know Donna come really from the state you transfer money so they sought to put money operating cost money and it didn't get it so we were in a position of sort of demanding that something be staffed that they couldn't deliver so they said we'll make best efforts to staff to these points um you know I mean they're willing to do it if we're willing to pay for the staffing and I didn't you know we didn't really think we were in that position so that was that one and um well the 20% match we do have an estimate for that our own ballpark estimate at least so I'll turn that over to Cameron and also that first one if she has more detail in that hey yes so um they didn't put that in because the grant fund is subject to grant availability but I'll read what they sent to us the grant for operating costs at MTC is a grant for 49,600 dollars with a 20 percent required local match which is $9,920 looking at fiscal year 20 the cost while MTC was open ran about $3,000 a month but that did not include utility costs which they are taking ownership of when this operating agreement is signed that they're really hoping that they're going to have available funding to be able to cover their fiscal year 21 operating expenses but they're also approaching BTrans for additional funding so they're going to let us know if that match goes up in any way but we don't anticipate it going up just down so it does in the contract it talks about operating it's operating just to keep that office open and they're estimating 49,000 but that includes their utilities and no that's that's good but then that's supposed to keep it open eight to six Monday to Friday and depending on their staffing ability yeah so they they weren't even able to staff at the beginning they didn't actually physically get people to apply for that job yeah a huge delay in their opening at all well it's just that to watching GMT as it becomes as money becomes tight it's true with their route reductions too they still have an incredible focus on Chittenden County and Washington County loses so I really want the transit center to be a priority and I'd like us to have some muscle to make them make it a priority if we can't do it in the contract we're only passive it disappoints me that's all so we're restricted to some extent you know the transit center was primarily federal transit funds so you know basically we have to we've got to play by their rules well is that what the Montpellier Transportation Commission is I didn't really see a definition in the contract but that's the term that's used Montpellier Transportation Commission anyway I could talk about that I mean if this needs to be approved tonight fine but if it doesn't I would really like to explore some of this but my question is what exactly do you want to see if you if you were proposing changes what are those changes that we have some muscle to have it open and staffed so that they can't hire if we can't we can't control if they have funding to staff or if they even have the people to hire right but we put this money into the transit center so that it's open so that it'll work for pedestrian and bike and bus riders so I want them to put their commitment here instead of just all in Chattanooga County I mean all right well you know and there's no leeway on it there's no leeway on it but I'll tell you in the future it's there's going to be a lot more push if this is this is the style of contract and attitude that's going to come out of it I mean we put a lot of money in that transit center and I'm not seeing it paying it's giving to the community as it should at all um hold on a second Stephen I think Bill I'm with you we pushed as hard as we could on you know bathroom of value availability and all the other things um and we you know we can take it back to them I just you know we don't have any control over I made you know philosophically we may agree yeah you put more into Chattanooga County I don't know how V-trans assigns those funds we're not in that loop we don't have any say over how those funds you know what they ask for and what they get um so if I mean I really if there's suggestions we're happy to take a look at them and talk to them about this in the two-year agreement was because that was their current grant cycle so they couldn't extend beyond um one question Bill what is uh the urgency on this particular contract do we need to approve it this evening Cameron you want to take that I mean it would be great we've been at this for a long time we've been trying at all but you know okay they have a timeline they're trying to hit I think this is important for them for their continued funding is having an agreement in place but but we have I mean to be fair to us we have been pushing back on this for almost a year now we've been working going back and forth with them and our lawyers and their lawyers since I since I got here so um this is a pretty robust agreement so I do agree if you need more time it's their timeline not ours okay and even if we did approve it it's only two years so it could be renegotiated with within relatively speaking short time okay um and Stephen did you want to comment I do I think that if if you're going to move forward with it you insist that provisions be put in there that it can be renegotiated sooner than two years especially for elements of bathroom access if the city needs to share the staffing use part of the homelessness task force appropriation and put our own staff in there on certain hours but do not forfeit those valuable city-owned bathrooms you know in a pandemic emergency you know it's I don't believe that our staff have been arguing hard enough or have had sufficient direction from council on the urgency of making those bathrooms available to the public and it's a travesty that it's been closed as long as it has while the city gives the construction workers keys to go in there and use it while they're instead of having port bodies for the construction job on Taylor Street so it's been mismanaged and insist that the public access bathrooms be left open if the contract has to be approved it could be negotiated and look for funding from available resources to pay and share the staffing of that facility to keep it open thank you but just for the record so everyone's aware the city did not provide them keys if that was an arrangement that was probably made between the contractor and GMT the city wasn't involved in that okay thank you um okay so one possibility is that we approve it tonight another possibility is that we delay um either way um is there anyone who'd like to make a motion go ahead Dan I'll make a motion that we approve the contract with uh Green Mountain Transportation the transportation transit I always get those backwards Green Mountain Transit Authority is their second okay we have a second from Jack um and any further comments I'm going to vote against it so you're going to have to do a roll call okay and it's not I totally understand Cameron you probably pushed it and pushed it I just need to vote against it that's all okay I will never take personal offense against any of this ever thank you Jack did you have a comment yes the the only only question I have is if we if we don't think there's a realistic probability of getting more in this contract than we already have then I don't see a point to not approving it tonight so I think Bill and Cameron are probably in the best position to say what what the prospects are yeah I mean we wouldn't have brought it to you if we didn't think this was the best we could do okay that's fine with me any further discussion okay um all in favor please say aye aye oh roll call well I was gonna do well we can hold this let me just start with a roll call that's that's fine so um uh Donna nay Connor hi Jay hi Dan hi Jack hi and Lauren okay so the motion passes and okay I think that is the end of our regular business okay council reports uh we're gonna go in that order uh Donna just ask it everybody to be safe we've got some nasty numbers going on in Vermont be safe that's all thank you great thank you Connor 24 hours to fill out the census very important so just a reminder there and uh micro transit is plugging away I know a lot of people in the community have had some concerns so please get those to you know Donna and I are your reps on council here uh or sustainable Montpelier just want to emphasize um is it do no harm approach we really want to make sure everybody who rides the circulator bus is taken care of and even though it's a transition um we hope this broadens the level of services so you know if somebody um about North Street needs to you know use this they'd be able to so it's not taking away services it's actually expanding them but there'll be some growing pains there that's it for me thank you Jay um yeah echoing Donna around folks making sure they're staying safe certainly lots of uh lots of people in town right now from all over so just uh being extra cautious also uh just want to acknowledge a huge thanks to John Holler and the folks at Mamba for all their work on the pump track excited to see that open and available to to kids um and then also uh it's come up it's been alluded to here and there but a huge thanks to everybody involved in Montpelier live for seeing through all the wayfinding signs um it's been great to see those finally installed um and looking good uh around town so thanks great Dan uh no much other than to say voting is open and if you haven't made a plan to vote everyone should be doing that plan and and voting and I'm sure John will give us an update on that but vote it can't be set enough I agree Jack this is short notice but uh for people who've been interested in the issue of of policing uh there is an online event tomorrow five o'clock to 6 30 p.m alternatives to policing and Vermont schools how to organize for safer schools in your community hosted by uh half dozen or so nonprofit organizations including the human rights commission and Vermont legal aid and if people want to see how they can log on to that and register for it it's on the Vermont legal aid Facebook page I also shared it on my own Facebook page I'll be in another meeting so I won't be able to be there but uh there are I think most if not all the organizations sponsoring this have uh come out in favor of removing school resource officers so people who want to get some information about that side of the debate that this might be a good place to go and that's all I've got okay uh Lauren thank you I'll pass okay and all the things I was going to say you all have already said it so um I'm also going to pass and so that leads to John John Odom here sorry I always hit the wrong buttons you know I actually feel like I have a ton to tell you all but it's awfully late so I won't but I mean unless you really want your details it's nothing you can't wait um but I would just remind anyone who's listening that you should have received a ballot by now if you haven't um Leigh it's contact us I'm sure there's a very good reason but one way or the other we'll get it to you okay great thank you really just robust oh good as it has one would hope uh bill I can't imagine what we would have that would be a value added at 11 19 to pass you know this is the latest meeting we've had in a long time and I'm sorry team thank you for hanging in there I'm trying to not make this normal um okay I think that concludes all of our business um thank you everyone have an excellent evening I without objection I'm going to consider this meeting adjourned okay thanks everyone good to see you see you