 Martha Smersky, member? Liz Bridget, member? Meredith Crandall, staff? Steven Everett, member? Eric Gilbertson, member? Benjamin Cheney, member? Hannah Smith, Martha, member? Unless anybody else has anything to add, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? All in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. For anybody who's not been here before, we are advisory to the Development Review Board. We will listen to each of the applications and move them forward. And I understand our first applicant, 47 Court Street, Lake Point Investors. Applicant, Bridget Morris, is for A-Sign. And I understand she's on the phone. Yes, I'm sorry I was unable to make it tonight, but thank you for listening anyway. Okay, no problem. Thank you. Go ahead and describe your sign for us. We have pictures. Okay, great. So you have the application in front of you. It's pretty simple, really, just trying to fit it under the Edward Jones one for my new company. And I hope that it's within the parameters of what you're expecting for that part of town. Okay, questions, comments about the sign? It is a metal sign attached to a wooden background. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. I see that the sign has a black border around it. It's a wooden sign. Does that have any kind of a cap around the edges to protect the wood? I am not sure I'm having it made by the sign company on Main Street. And I believe they just print the black border would be on the metal, which is glued to the wood. Oh, okay. You may just want to ask them about something for the top of the sign, top and sides in particular, just to protect the wood just for preservation. It doesn't have any... For weather, right. As much to do with the design of the sign as it is just to protect your investment. Right, that makes sense. And how is the sign attached to the sign post? I see the Edward Jones has some little struts that come out in the four corners. Yes, I've asked them to install it the same way that Edward Jones has installed just to keep it alive. No, that's fine. I assume the intention is to have your sign be the exact same width as the Edward Jones sign? I don't believe so. My mother kind of designed it. I think that she wanted it to be slightly different, actually. You know, I don't think that's photo right in front of me, to be honest. If it's the same width, then yes. I know that it's either the height or the width that is different than the Edward Jones sign. Yeah, it shows the height different. Yes, okay. Then it must be the height. And the width should be the same, I think. Yes, that makes it compatible with the existing sign. No, I think that looks fine. Does anybody have any other comments, questions, suggestions? There is a criteria sheet. I'll read through it quickly regarding the sign. Number one, design review standards. Number one, a preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district or in the opposite historic structure. Acceptable. B, harmony of exterior design with other properties of the district. Acceptable. C, compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district. Acceptable. D, compatibility of proposed landscaping not proposed in this application. E, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials. Acceptable. F, location and appearance of all utilities. No lighting proposed for the sign. No. Okay, so not applicable here. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house. Acceptable. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations. Acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties. Acceptable. Show not obscures significant architectural details. Acceptable. Illumination. Not applicable here. Penance and banner is not applicable. Individual letters. Fixed, painted or engraved directly on the building or structure. Encouraged. The sign is acceptable in this location. All in favor of the application is proposed. Raise your hand. The application is approved. Great, thank you so much. I appreciate it. So Bridget, you'll need to come down to the planning office to be able to sign this recommendation form so we can issue the permit. Okay, I should be able to come by tomorrow. Perfect. We'll be open by 8 o'clock. Okay, thanks so much. Have a good night. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Bridget. Bye. 100 State Street Cup Plaza. Samuel Sammel Sign Company. New signage. Is that you? Come forward and have a seat. Roger Sammel. Okay. And go ahead and describe your application. So as you may or may not know Northfield Savings Bank has re-branded the bank several years ago and we've been working with them on updating all the branches. Mountain Filial is one of the final ones. Basically, they're looking to hire Autocreek to replace the blue banners that currently exist on the building with a gray banner with logos in the same locations as they currently are, as well as the 24-hour ATM lettering that is currently on the all the window decals will be removed from the front of the building and the side of the building. And on the awning there is existing blue lettering, raised lettering on each side of the entrance and exit of the awning and those are being replaced with raised lettering as well in the new logo style and gray color. This one? Correct. This one will be printed onto a and it's on the lettuce. Oh! Excuse me if the light goes off. Yeah, sure. It's going to be attached directly to the facade of the existing awning, just like the old lettering. Just like this? Yes. It's made out of canvas, right? The awning, it's made out of canvas. And the one on each side? The lettering is going to be made out of raised PVC lettering. But the panel on each side, that's also a canvas. Here. Correct. Versus the stuff directly on the awning like that. Correct. Okay. This is the drive-up though, right? This is the drive-up on the awning. Yeah, that's the drive-up in the back. Is that an awning? Not the awning, the drive-up group. The canopy. Yeah, canopy. Yeah, canopy. Versus the awnings. I got it. Oh, there. Sorry, you've grown it. It's on terminology. Yeah, on terminology. Thank you. I had a question. I was looking at this. Why are the letters for bank so small? You can't, I mean, there says Darkfield on it. That's a pretty interesting picture. Under pretty canvas awning? Yes, this one. Talking to the letters, they're smaller, they're sort of gray and they sort of fade away. Yeah, so that is the way their logo is designed and that's how they've been used throughout all of the projects. Yeah, that one, I'm not sure we can, it's a branding logo thing, so I'm not sure we can really say much about that. I don't care, I just don't think it works very well with the sign. Yeah, well one of their intentions was to get rid of that eventually and just be called Northfield? Northfield. Eventually? Maybe the town or something. Yeah. Maybe some copyright issues. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine if they were okay with it, but just in terms of readability and I know it's part of their logo, but if they could shade that halfway to the white, at least you would see it for someone who's not familiar with it as a bank. Sure. But again, that's their call. Yeah, I can certainly bring that back to them. Just in terms of readability, contrast has as much to do with the readability as the size of the sign with the lettering. Totally agree? As you well know. I'll send you the expert. Just a quick question, just because it's, I grew up in the area, but it's been so long since I, I wasn't necessarily paying attention when this building was being built or revised. This is all granite here, right? This is going to be covered up by the awnings or is it? No, it's kind of a painted stucco. Okay. Yeah, I wondered whether that would be significant. Yeah, because I know it's, it's, that is the only, that echoes the top corners and that's the only break between the first and the second floor. Really in stylized changes. Yeah. I don't know. I would have decided it was not. You said it was not in looking at the whole building as a whole. That was my problem. I just wanted to make sure that the committee discussed it. Does the awning over the ATM project a little bit more so you're actually protected? So you're covered from the weather, correct? And it's the same distance out as the, the awning that's over the double entrance door from the parking lot side, which I believe are both, you know, 36 inches. Well, 18-1 is 36 and the entrance is 45 inches. That projects out. Does this panel here the larger panel to the left of the side entrance? Does that project out as well? 10 inches only. Oh, 10 inches only. Yeah, as well as the front, the entire front awning is only 10 inches out from the building as well. And that's indicated on this sketch here on the side. It shows you the depth of each. Thank you. What is the current projection? Are these the same projections or is the so the current awnings are set back. They're set back in between the brick pillars. Okay. And we're proposing that the gray one is one continuous along the entire front and they go in front of the brick in order to create a more continuous, clean look, clean line. Sort of separate that corner from the rest of Capital Plaza. Correct. Yep. That helped define that space. I think it creates a less busy looking situation. It's like a charcoal gray or maybe lighter than a charcoal. Yeah, it's a like charcoal. And the awning material is the typical umbrella fabric. And the awning that's remaining here is the Capital Plaza awning. It is a darker blue close to the gray. It's, yeah, it's more of a navy blue. And that matches with the other Capital Plaza awning further down. Yeah. Those pillars considered architectural details that are significant. Not to me. I think it's, you guys have to decide if they are or not. Same with the other features. Probably not. But in terms of the of the building here, it would be helpful. We can see what this is, but this would look more less conspicuous if we had the whole building. Oh. Because it would be just in terms of the one of the criteria as it does on high significant architectural details. And that is a detail, but I wouldn't call it historic. Exactly. But again, a picture of the of the entire building. I know this is better as far as the detail of the sign, but just one of the future reference, a picture of the entire building. Yeah. And it would be just a picture of the entire building. It would make that look a little smaller in terms of the scale of the whole building. Sure. I understand. In fact, the canvas becomes the sign there. Yes. Yes, it does. Is there a frame that's mounted like around on the face of the brick or it goes around the brick? Correct. It bypasses the brick and then the canvas is mounted directly on that? Correct. Okay. Yep. Is the, is that framework attached to these panels or to the brick or how is that frame attached for the canvas? I cannot answer that because Otter Creek awnings is doing that work and I'm not sure what their plan is where to attach that. I do know that the the top of the front awning is open so that snow and rain and stuff can go through it and the one on the side of the building that's solid gray is open but then the one that's over the entrance and the ATM have a roof structure to help protect people as they enter for our at the ATM. I guess early suggestion would be that the mechanical attachment to the building be in the existing signed bands rather than into the brick itself just to preserve the material. Okay. And then the fasteners should also go in the mortar. They are but if they can manage to mount it and the existing the brackets for the mounting of the frame if they can be mounted then there's signed band that would be the ideal. Okay. I can bring that back to Otter Creek. As we we typically try to put all the fasteners within the mortar be located in the existing bands between the brick pillars but if the attachment should be made in the mortar joints it works. Any lighting? There's no lighting proposed. Any other comments? Questions? Suggestions? Okay. I'll read down through the criteria and get to hear it again. That's fine. Number 1A preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district or involves an historic structure acceptable. Harmony of exterior design acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping non-proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities again no change in lighting. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties acceptable. Shall not obscure significant architectural details acceptable. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs not applicable here. Illumination no lighting proposed. Penits and banners prohibited not applicable. Individual letters of fixed painted or engraved building or structure are encouraged. The sign is acceptable in this location. All in favor of the applications proposed. Raise your hand to sign this. I can't sign above my name right there. Okay. Good project then. Thank you very much. Does he need to Nope. This is just going to be an administrative permit out of the planning department. So you should get issued in a few days. Okay. And do you guys do Z cards? Yeah. Yeah. If you want to call I'll have the branch come pick it up and they can post it. Okay. Good. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Yep. Thank you. Good luck with your project. Thank you. We're going to go through a couple of minutes first. We can't do the October 21st ones. We don't have the forms just October 7th minutes. We have a chance to look at the October 7th questions changes October 7th minutes. We're down to 30 minutes. Okay. Yes. Introduce yourself for anybody who doesn't know you although I'm not sure if there is anybody who doesn't know you. I don't know everybody here. I'm Rob Hitzig. I'm with the Public Arts Commission. I play a public arts commission and we're proposing eventually putting lights on the vines that are in the alley between the Blanchard block and the Zutano. It's in here. It's in here. It was originally done by Jeffrey Darling. Jeffrey Darling. Yes. Yeah. You weren't around there. We're at risk. This isn't an official application but we'll hoping to make an application next meeting and just getting some feedback from you now so we can make any changes to our application but essentially what we want to do is put some nice LED lights on it. There would be white lights about 200 feet of it. I don't forget exactly how they're placed but about five inches apart and then also about 12 sets of these what they call supernova lights which chain they sort of go through in a wave pattern blue wave pattern 12 different locations along the there'd be a timer does the light change as you're walking through does that light change? At this point no. They're not motion sensitive but we've thought about doing something like that and that's one of the things that we want to look at to in the future and perhaps working with the high school and students there to come up with additional ideas to for lighting we just wanted we just wanted to get it up right now and do something really simple and then as time goes on make additional changes and perhaps they're working with the high school to do something like that you've got to know Harry or Clark that's what I've said yeah right exactly yeah yeah I've seen that it's overkill and there's a lot of light yeah and you just I think there are the lights the other lights yeah I think yeah they'll be within the sculpture I don't think they can hang down because it'll probably be hanging too far down if they hang so we'll wrap them in within the sculpture is the wire of the lights like black so you don't see it get it whether the black or green I think they're black it's the greatest black now it's rust it's rust yeah yeah are they going to be on a timer right we're going to set it for 10 p.m. I mean 5 p.m. to 10 p.m. initially 5 p.m. is too late right yeah this is true it is maybe we'll set it a little earlier I think that family probably could start this place to get dark if you put them on a timer we have timers now I have one at the house that adjusts to oh really dusk uh-huh whenever that happens to be so like light sensitive no it just adjusts according to when it gets dark at 4 o'clock now yeah you know automatically just through the season yeah we could set it for 4 you could do a light sensitive but then you'd have to have a timer to go off 10 or 11 or whatever they have both of those so that's an option as well so you don't have to keep looking with the timer to adjust it to come on earlier because it gets closer to December 21st on a cloudy day it gets dark in there yeah pretty early oh look at this I have your application be for like from dusk to 10 p.m. just as needed sorry the wire itself the cable itself would be black and then the lights would have a socket or the individual lights or is it just a cable light um they're cable they're on a they're all on the cable there's like Christmas lights basically they hang down from the uh they'll be wrapped around the vine oh okay where did they plug into there's an outlet above a Zutana just outside the window I had a picture of it I don't know if like yeah there it is yeah it's on the roof above the Zutana okay ah that's I was trying to figure out where it was yeah I could figure out that it was the roof or what it was but now thank you it's in green oh yeah so you can find them in black yeah that was an option um Christmas tree color I mean double-checked they're a very very very dark green so again it's probably a dark um is to emphasize the iron work as well some questions suggestions or good it'll be nice yeah thank you Robert thank you but do you have anything to bring up it's in your packet I just didn't know if I had any questions about it what is the red indicate Tuesday meetings yeah there's too many of them I remember that's all your meetings we just have everything else in there we're not going to print your own special calendar has anything to add to your emotion would you I want to ask Meredith is there anything coming up so that's next week okay is the November 12th planning commission meeting HPC is going to be attending if at all possible to do a final discussion on the new design review regulations as well as this meeting hopefully get to the design overlay map changes because we didn't get to those last meeting I think I sent everybody around an update on that yeah last week so that'll be this coming not tomorrow this coming Tuesday next Tuesday so if anybody wants to attend they should feel free they are welcome that would be good planning commission public meeting public input session with just HPC and DRC members nobody there for the public that's okay we'll probably hear from them all when it's actually up for adoption yeah and they say they're affected if anybody who's out there wants to attend please do the boundary issue really has been out there yeah and they did make some changes there was actually a proposed boundary because we didn't really yeah proposed boundary changes those should be discussed next week and those are all up on the city website if anybody wants to take a look at them or they can contact me and I'll send them the map I'm so glad when that gets done by the way just as a nicer side the north field savings bank the maximum size of their letters is 12 inches even though they're viewed from a long distance away having coffee and looking at that message just thought I'd bring that up just for a future I checked the dimension of the letter but I figured there's a problem you take care of as a side note I do know that the letters are being printed out at 24 inches on paper as of today as a model and to go to just double check that's nice I said there's some thought put into that so they are so what are they now they got approved for a 24 inch at Rappel Rouser right okay by the development review board I couldn't remember the size yeah they put a half long ways put a space in between so it's two rows they are being proof of concept by putting them out on a piece of paper and stepping back and taking a look at the piece of paper at their first to see them again by the way we'll print out some of the information that's been pulled up before there's actually a science to size of lettering from distance viewed and a 24 inch sign the maximum viewing distance for 24 inch letters is 1,000 feet which is three quarters of the way up to Vermont College I'm sorry to get that far away but what we'll be viewed from is the steps of city hall which is 180 feet away maximum well I mean at an angle down the street probably right yeah but there is there is that yes there is that they're not big enough for anything but yeah yeah so anyway they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're letter. Some districts, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Savannah, Charleston, they have a maximum letter size for like a downtown street prep. Maximum size is 18 edge, even in older sections of New York. I think I had to adopt those guidelines. Well, I mean, there's the planning director, Mike Miller, and I have discussed that we need to basically revamp the entire sign provision in the regulations, in the zoning regulations. We're taking things in sections right now. So they had their big rewrite that was adopted September 25th that hit a lot of high priority issues. We're taking the design review chunk and then we've also got signs coming up, but I'm not quite sure what the timing is on that because planning commission is also working on the master plan. So that's got to sort of take priority. People keep thinking that bigger is it better, but at the same time contrast font has as much to do with readability as the size. If you were to walk at the front door of the Shaw supermarket and look across the entire parking lot, the sidewalk, the street, the sidewalk, and the entire parking lot in front of Sarduchies, you can clearly read that sign. And it's, I don't even know if it's 12 inches high. And that's a couple hundred feet. What about flashing in the outside? Another hole. No longer allowed. But anyway, you know, it'd be nice if people, it'd be nice if we had something to hand out to people who are coming in to apply for signs so that they understand that there's actually a science behind it that makes readability not necessarily related to size of the letter, especially on a smaller, you know, main street from side to side, street and sidewalks. It's only 80 feet across to the opposite side of the sidewalk. People are funny. I think it's really funny that you can hardly read the bank on Northfield. Part of their logo, it might show up brighter on the awning than it does. I imagine that 90 plus percent of the people who would go to the Northfield bank know exactly where they're going and don't look at the sign. Yes. What did the final sign for Rabelrauser actually say at the last meeting that I was at that they presented, it was like they were still thinking about what they actually were going to put in there. No, it was going to be the florist espresso chocolate. It was going to be everything. Florist espresso chocolate spirits. Okay. Yeah. Florist espresso chocolate spirits. And then the rabelrauser is in the window and then on the alley side of the building. Right. By the way, an interesting comment. You probably know what I'm going to say. Probably. Is that when you put a sign on your glass and you do it inside, it doesn't have to go through any permit. But their lettering is stuck on the outside of the glass. Is it? Yes. Oh, I didn't notice that. I noticed that they added Jamaican food to the side of the building without getting permission. So that changed their size. It's pretty good. They used a different card. Yeah. Oh, I love that they're in there now. Yeah. So anyway, the letters are applied on the outside. Oh, I didn't know that. I went by and I'm looking and I can see the reflection of the glass, except it doesn't reflect where the lettering was. Oh, no. Okay. And so I went just to configure and yeah, it's applied on the outside. Is it painted on, Steve? What's that? Is it painted on or is it? It's letters that look like they're just like, oh, okay. Yeah, they're just not supposed to do that. I didn't notice that part. Sorry. Bring that up. Will you just spend your whole day in there with chocolate, spirits, Jamaican food? I think the letters on the windows are hard to read. You know, a real caffeine overdose. I don't know what it is, but they don't really stand out. It's that's their choice. But yeah, it's also on the outside, it's going to get scraped by all sorts of snow and stuff. Well, I guess it would get scraped on the inside. Yeah, but the outside's probably going to get dirty. So anyway, we never voted to adjourn to what? Your motion to adjourn. Yes. Second. All on paper of adjournment. Raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned.