 In this first panel, we will be approaching the meanings in plural of underground memory, testimony and deposit of life and collective story. We will go into the history of Barcelona and the defence of its citizens through the building of underground air raid shelters, an idea that was exported to Europe afterwards and we will have testimonies from Paris and Berlin. Google claim memory as a starting point to have a critical understanding of the present and face the future and in order to do so we will now introduce our speakers of the first panel of today. Milan Gevel is curator of the Berlin story bunker specialist in society politics and war. He studied law. He was director of the international resistance of the world, an anti-military organisation and a pacifist organisation that had 10,000 members in Germany. In 2010 he opened his own book store, the Berlin, his own exhibition, the Berlin story and he organised the annual festival with more than 90,000 visitors since 2016. He is in charge of the archive of the Berlin story bunker. Good morning. Good morning here. Carma Miros has a PhD in ancient history and archaeology by the University of Barcelona. Since the year 1989 she works at the archaeology service at the culture institute of Barcelona and her research focuses on the archaeology of conflict, especially the footprints of the civil war in Barcelona and he led the Bosnian project to bring back information from the Roman era in Barcelona to Thomas, an expert in the underground of the town council of Paris. He was member of the local historic society studying the subsoil remains in, medieval remains in Provence in Paris. He discovered the underground quarries of the French capital. He co-edited at least of underground Paris and he published 12 more books and about 300 scientific papers amongst those some on second world war shelters. He received several words in recognition for his work. Nice to meet you and thank you for being here. And finally, Laura Bertero, architect and author of Galerías del Tiempo, Galleries of Time, a path through every shelter of the Spanish Civil War in Barcelona. She is a double specialty master in history and culture and a master in architectural rehabilitation. She currently collaborates with the architectural firm Janssai Franyosa specializing in conservation and catalogue buildings as Hairy Judge in Tarragona. Welcome all. We will start with an initial presentation of about 20 minutes of each of our speakers and then we will open the debate to the public so that everyone can participate. So we will start with Wiland Giebel, if that's okay with you. Is it okay? My name is Wiland Giebel and I'm talking for Berlin Story Bunker and should work here. Okay, yeah, no, but I should work here, but it would be better. So you see Berlin Story Bunker in red. This is a bunker built in and on the side here over there is the Anhalta Bunker is a train station destroyed in 1945 and this was Hitler's train station and in yellow you see the Hitler's government center and in green is the Reichstag, the government, the parliament building and very small in the green is Brandenburg Gate. So you see that this bunker, Anhalta Bunker, Berlin Story Bunker is really in the center of this should work. Do you know how that works? Okay, I'll do that then because faster. So the bunker in the year 1933 when Hitler came to power and Hitler used this bunker always if he has had visitors or if he went to Munich, to Rome or wherever. So the first bombers as Keith told us before came to Germany to Berlin in the year 1940. The British were the first to hit back and this was not what we expected because we planned to have the war in other countries, not in Germany, not in Berlin. So Berliners were completely surprised that British bombers came and throw bombs on Berlin. So we have not had any bunker for civilians and no bunker for the Fuhrer, for Hitler. The bunker, this bunker, Berlin Story Bunker was built in the year 1942 and as you see on the right hand side is Anhalta Bahnhof, Hitler's train station and you see that the wall of the bunkers are two meters. The bunker was built by slave workers from East Europe. We do not know how many they were and the bunker was ready in the year 1942 but people could not yet move in because it was not yet furnished. You remember the photos Keith has shown from Hamburg with wooden banks in the bunker. This existed here too for a certain time but then later the banks were stolen or sold because people needed wood for burning for at home. So in the years from 1944 on people had to stand in the bunker because there was nothing to sit. In case of alarm people came for one hour or two hours depending how long the how many bombers came. We have had a lot of attacks but not in the year 1942 when the bunker was built because as you said, as you explained, British bombers at this year did not come to Berlin. And who was in the bunker? Everybody, everybody means every Aryan Germans, of course no Jews. And people came in the bunker like that or were sitting there or went to the kitchen and all this is fake, this is propaganda. There was no kitchen, there was no bank and this is true. It looked like that on the right hand side you see the bunker, the train station and you see how people run into the bunker and you see this crying child on the right hand side, again the Unhalter station, the train station of Hitler. So this bunker was planned for 3,500 people and at the end there have been 12,000 inside. Now at the end on 2nd of May 1945 this was the last day of the Second World War in Berlin, the SS men, the stormtroopers blown up the tunnel of the metro under a canal. So the complete water of the canal, Landwehr canal was going into this tunnel system and the tunnel, the bunker was linked to the train station by a tunnel and so the water came into the tunnel and people had to leave, these 12,000 people had to leave immediately. This is a movie, this is not real, this was made 10 years later but the people could remember how it was and here you see again one photo from the movie and the other one half a year later, September 1945 and they could all still go by boat through the metro system. We are back in the year 1945, down here you see the bunker, the roof of the bunker, Berlin is more or less destroyed in the center, it is nearly 100%. The train station is so beautiful, it was a wonderful train station, unfortunately destroyed in the year 1961, the year when the war was built and nowadays we would save it and make a cultural center like here or market or so but this is over. Now all the years after Second World War the bunker was used to stock food because after the Berlin blockade when the Russians closed the roads and the trains and so to Berlin and after the Berlin airlift the Allies, mainly the Americans proposed or said we have to stock food for the Berliners so to explain this again at that time Germany after Second World War was separated into blue, West Germany and red, East Germany and in East Germany you see a yellow island, this island is Berlin and Berlin again was separated in West and East, about West Berlin was then later between 1961 and 1989 the Berlin Wall and because the two million West Berliners should have food in case there was a new blockade by the Soviets we had to stock food and the bunker was used a long, long time to have food inside. That's it. We talked to a lot of women who have been in the bunker before, she has been 14 years of that time and also Doranas, she was there, you see Doranas and my colleague, she was 14 years old too and 14 years also was Johanna Ruf and 14 because in the age of 15 they had to leave, they had to go not to the front as a boys but they had to help and all the girls that the complete bunker management in the year 1945 was made by girls of 14 years because the mothers were depressive, the husband was in Russia or the son or the brother or so but the young girls were strong enough to manage this bunker. So I talked to Johanna Ruf on Tuesday, she is a very last, she is 93 years old now, she is a very last one who was near the Hitler's bunker, she helped in another in the bunker under the rice chancellery. She complains to live with all these old people nowadays who are boring and who are not interested in politics and she doesn't like to be in these old people's home. This is the bunker today, you see the bunker has five levels, it's not an underground bunker, two levels are underground and this is what we are doing today with the bunker, Hitler, how could it happen and documentation exists since 2017, we started in 2014, we have 350,000 visitors a year and in 2019 before COVID and we are working without any public funding. Now you see several photos now from how it works inside, this is the reception, sorry wrong direction, this cute baby is Hitler and it looks quite common, it's no touch screen, nothing modern, it is an exhibition like here with the posters and many photos as many as possible are life-size so these Jews in Kiev are just brought to Babizhar to be killed, they know that they will be killed and the visitors stand opposite and nearly in life-size so we work with life-size photos, with text image boards like the posters here and with monitors. The average visiting time in this exhibition is three hours, average means this is not what we measure, it's not my idea, it is Google, Google measures how long your smartphone is inside, I don't know if this is legal but it's cool for us, it's better more exactly than we ever can measure so three hours means young people stay usually four hours and elderly people less, we have the visitors are between 25 and 35, perhaps 40, 70% and 70% are from other countries, they come with EasyJet and Fooling and other companies so this is where they come from Europe mainly from other countries too so there is a historical reconstruction of the room where Hitler killed himself and we have the visitors see it like that it's absolutely one to one to show that Hitler that it was very small that the room where this dictator then killed himself was absolutely small and the furniture of course is not original but it is nearly as possible it looked like that then we have a model of the bunker of Hitler's bunker also to show that it is absolutely small and he died and he killed himself in this small bunker that does not exist anymore it is there is a parking place now on the bunker and there is an information board made by Berliner Unterwelten to inform about this bunker history so next exhibition in the bunker is a cooperation with the Atwashem in Jerusalem about women in the Holocaust next is the exhibition then we continue after 1945 what happened in Germany and this is Germany 1945 till today and to explain Germany in this time it needs only one picture nearly this the cross-national product goes up and up and up and up and up and this is why we are living so well so it started I make a short I talk about this exhibition the economical development in West Germany all over the world the possible progress then in agriculture technology science and medicine the main question of this exhibition is what happened with all the Nazis we have had and this is very easy because the Nazis were still there in our justice system there have been 6000 we have a big document with 6000 names of people who were real Nazis Nazis, Nazis, Dutchies and so and who worked again worked again in West Germany or they worked in the administration or they were my teachers so my and national socialist newspapers still exist like this you see National National Zeitung has had a circulation in 1979 of 120,000 every week I know this paper very well because my father got it every week and okay goes the museum goes with the construction of the wall and 1968 started with this killing of a Berlin student in 1967 and it's the same political development of students and young people as it is here in 1968 students protested in Spain against the Franco regime 68 means sexual revolution too and the primacy of orgasm is not so often in museums but it's important because the generation before did not know that so fall of the Berlin Wall again is like a scene and we honor Angela Merkel in German refugees from Syria they like to make selfies with her she liked it too and the museum ends like that in this year with the war in Ukraine this is my colleague he was there on the way to Butcher on 2nd of April 1922 and so we support a lot from the bunker the war we support the Ukrainians so we send nearly every week cars with helmets and with bulletproof vests and at the moment a lot of medical stuff and to help them and in this war we have next exhibition in the war is about memes in the Ukraine memes is you know that from the internet it's propaganda from down to top usually propaganda is from the propaganda minister from top to down and memes is contrary so everybody can make produce memes and it is against the Russians and to create hope and optimism with the Ukrainians so you see over there the government is intelligent and clever enough in the Ukraine to understand that these memes have to be supported and they make stamps of it and that's it and in blue is the Mariana she was visiting us 10 days ago because she wanted to see this exhibition if they can use things like that in tourism in the Ukraine now now there are some more visitors you see three ambassadors of Israel the last one Ron Posor over there was there last Sunday before and he visited us three hours and the big photo is Amy Gutmann Professor Amy Gutmann and her husband Professor Michael Doyle she is the ambassador of the United States of America and she visited us several days before Christmas now in the bunker we have a publishing house we publish books about German history and Nazi time we have more than 250 titles about that the books are so directly from palettes in the bunker this is the bunker we have a bookshop in the bunker like that of course I have a web shop and sell via Amazon and others so this is our last action on 24th of February one year after the Russians invaded Ukraine we placed this Russian tank in front of the Russian embassy in Berlin you see on this side the Russian embassy as though the cannon goes to the Russian embassy you see in the background Brennenberg gate and we wanted to this Russian tank T-72 was destroyed in the Ukraine by Ukrainians on the 31st of March 2022 two days before my colleague Eno was there on the same place so we would like to support the Ukrainians from the bunker and this is the ambassador of the Ukraine was there Oleg Selmer, he is a tough boy, man, because he came without bodyguards and you see on the side the embassy of the enemies of the Russians so he came in front of the Russian embassy and the windows you see are the ones from FSB from the secret service so the secret service was watching what the ambassador is doing there now this is the press conference was very good Reuters streamed online our press conference we have had the word press over there and that's it now if you want to know what we are doing check Berlin Story DE and if you want to know what I am thinking about this conference later you can check Wieland Giebel DE and if you want to follow me on Twitter this would be a good idea you can see that on Twitter on Facebook not so often on Instagram yesterday because I was so impressed by the situation of Barcelona now it's really cool and you can follow Enno Lenzer, my colleague he is more active in Twitter he has 66,000 followers because he often is in the war in Kurdistan, Iraq, Afghanistan and now next week again in Ukraine again that's it, this is the history of the bunker and of what we are doing now thanks a lot okay so now we pass the floor over to Carmen Miró good morning first of all I would like to thank the organizers for having invited me to these days especially Tzabidomenak and Anna Sante and I admire your work that I was a privileged spectator of at the very beginning and we hope you will end here we've only just started these two days and many things have come up, things that really make us think and... I'm here to talk about underground memory or underground memory, I'm an archaeologist as many of you know and when you talk about underground you talk about subsoil but there are many ways of covering there is another way of covering that is more important to stress and not so common not so obvious which is covering due to many issues especially fear, how many historic facts events have disappeared due to fear and I'm talking about conflict and when we talk about a conflict we can never forget fear fear is always apologised for the presentation so we are in the 21st century and we are at war who would have said that Europe would go through another war but what has happened since the Second World War we could give you a long list of wars I'm sure you can think of two easily in Europe the Balkan War that we have all lived through and the Ukraine War but we cannot forget the war in Vietnam, Cambodia we cannot forget the war on Iraq where they told us that I like the word preventative in archeology but maybe in military terms it's not so interesting so we're talking about this underground memory and where we come from and I love this sentence by the great Maria Orelia campaign who says, surely it is the people awareness of the present moment that pushes me to explain the origins the Spanish Civil War will not be explained in the same way now in the face of the Ukrainian war so we explain it differently now than a few years ago we are where we are and we interpret the facts based on current times and Miguel Martí Poldozofi who I admire him and he has this poem a book of short poems that I always use which is you carefully rebuild the past that leads you to where you are now and this is what archeologists do we rebuild the past why do we do it? do we want to focus on history, proto-history, prehistory? no, we do this in order to try and move forward towards a future moment and this leads us to a big word, uncertainty when we talk about archeology there is always uncertainty but not only when we talk about archeology when we talk about war when we talk about conflict and we talk about this underground memory and certainty is always present what is uncertainty? there is not one single certainty there are many so uncertainty prevails going back to memory memory is remembering the fact of remembering and here we have a text from Silvia de la Cojan a book on writing fiction but I recommend it because it's very interesting how it makes you think about memory past, present and future and she says a memory is an imprint that gives meaning to our life it is about going back to the past to understand the present and to project oneself into the future and I always like saying archeology is a fragile balance between past, present and future and when I came across this quote I thought well yeah, it's similar to what I've always wanted to explain so we can attach many objectives to memory we will see it happens also with history and archeology and a few years ago I have colleagues here who have been with me for many years Jordi Guichet, Uriel López, Ricardo who I cannot see at the moment Ramón Arnavat they have been my colleagues for many years my dear Jordi Ramos as well and we started debating I'm sure you'll remember and I also remember Xavi Domenic at some sessions that we organized years ago where we started talking about this and it seemed like some defend talking about memory and others defend talking about history but no, we have to talk about all of it memory is part of history and history needs to recover memory let's not make a confrontation between them we're all here to talk about conflict let's not divide even more we have democratic memory we have selected memory we have memory and oblivion but memory for recent history is basic because we have people amongst us who experience these events and we just saw some pictures presented by our guest from Berlin of people who lived in the who were in the bunkers that the memories they have now when they're 90 are not the same memories they had when they were 20 at the end of the war because our memory transforms and evolves but let's talk about history oh, history, historians are objective no, sorry, we're not here I'm showing a text from Walter Benjamin because he is a referendum when we talk about the Spanish Civil War and he talks about this about who makes history normally the victors let's take a look at history books from the beginning of the Franco regime what they said about the war and the Masonic separatist armies this is the story that we want the history that we want it was a history that was stopped but not only Walter Benjamin also Tacitus who said do not listen to rumors there is only one true history what was the true history for Tacitus that of the emperors or that of the people is there a true history or many there's one memory in many histories and unfortunately history belongs to the victors and they don't always say what we would have liked during the first talk Professor Lowe told us about the history of the Brits who were the winners but they were destroyers as well and in Germany I'm sure many people suffered as well we depict Germans as the evil ones but there's no black and white let's try to find a balance and what do we reach then? Heritage is the inheritance of a culture of the past with which a people experiences the present and conveys it to future generations Heritage is not so subjective it can be depending on how we interpret it but it's somewhat solid and now on to archaeology archaeology is the scientific discipline which studies the data of the past in the most objective manner not completely objective because the person interpreting it can be subjective as well but it talks about material culture which is more difficult to alter if I encounter an air raid shelter and I document it I'm documenting the shelter of course a person may come and say oh no, here they wear it's not an air raid shelter because people used it to grow mushrooms this is what happened in the 307 shelter well yes, people used it for that but it is an air raid shelter and archaeology can confirm that here we have a definition of archaeology but we could have chosen another a thousand more Professor Terradello also has a very good one archaeology is a very heterogeneous discipline and we need to work in interdisciplinary teams this is where we really make headway let's go back to adjectives we talked about memory with adjectives history with adjectives and archaeology can have many adjectives the study of the past through material remains we have urban archaeology the landscape archaeology but now we will focus on the archaeology of conflict normally when we talk about archaeology of conflict well, people I wanted to undermine it a bit because it seems like if we're talking about the war we are pro-war but no, talking about the war means talking about peace shall we forget all of the histories of the war no, how many kids in secondary education know who Franco was and what happened here during the dictatorship we need to give them a new reading to explain that here we went through a time where fascists did what they wanted so talking about the archaeology of conflict is talking about peace and talking about preventing things that we were not able to prevent in the past and archaeology also talks about urban configuration I always like talking about Barcelona and well, my talk should be generalistic but I've worked in Barcelona so I will focus on Barcelona a bit and this is an idea that I copied from Medical Nieda Latour it is a space it is a space that man has transformed and there are three spaces three areas to bear in mind the space time, time must go by the beginning and the end and mankind, without humankind things do not change each group that installs when a group sets us into a piece of space it transforms it into its own image and likeness and this is what transformed history with different methodologies I have a quote by Maurice Hallbach from La Memoire Collective a book that I recommend and he says precisely it is each community needs to adapt to the space we cannot explain conflict without explaining space and professor also explained it it is not the same thing to bomb a territory, whether without clouds or you cannot install raiders in flatlands it's more difficult to bomb to bomb the mountains as compared to the pitch so the landscape is vital in order to understand a conflict the city is the great deposit of collective memory and here we go back to the concept of archaeology the concept of the city we are in Barcelona and the concept of collective memory and there are two quotes that I use often one from Narcissa de la Pena from the 18th century who says cities are not made up of stones but of their inhabitants and there is another quote that I love from Mortimer Boiler who says archaeologists do not unearth things but people we must unearth the lives of people who live there and the life in this case of all cities and so we are here in Barcelona bombings and using the words said by Anna during the introduction mainly women and children that we have not talked about enough we are in a patriarchal society and the role of women has been often silenced and also an idea of Aldo Rossi who studied this concept of city as collective memory and he said over time the city grows on itself it acquires awareness and memory and concepts of bomb cities as symbols I remember for example how impressed I was by the Coventry Cathedral when I went there the Gothic cathedral and the new one and there are many aspects many layers of riches but heritage as well and now we all see the cathedral avenue and we think oh these we see it so clearly the facade is so nice but there were two very narrow streets there that were bombed destroyed and this is why we now have an avenue so a conflict changes the city and the war leaves a footprint leaves marks and a differential fact especially in Barcelona what happens in Barcelona here we've talked about the Barcelona model and I will not give you a historic introduction Xavi Domenic has given us a very good introduction at the beginning of the day and Anna rounded it up with all of these concepts of shelters but I would like to stress something very important the change of military tactics change the transformation of the city here we have a city that transforms itself but with the differential fact bombings the rear war becomes the front line and things have to change cities in the rear guard have not been bombed very much by then and then they started bombing them and the rear guard could not support the front line so it has to organize a passive defense and these lead to moral consequences and social consequences as a reorganization of Barcelona and again we talk about fear fear installs itself over citizens and all those of you who've had grandparents who lived in Barcelona or in different areas not in smaller villages where it was different they can tell you how they run to the shelters and I think I'm running out of time well I'll summarize we're talking about space and memories these are concepts that I would like to make clear a city leaves us in constant transformation a city has a deposit of collective memory what is heritage? we add many adjectives to heritage we need to recover our heritage but citizens must believe in and love and preserve their heritage then we have known and unknown heritage which is not less important than the former and integral actions on heritage legislation, what do we preserve and how do we do it? Barcelona is a differential fact we talk about the Barcelona model but we should also bear in mind that at a certain point Barcelona was the capital of three governments the republican government the Catalan government and the Basque government and Tabi may know this better than I do but I do not know of any other cases like this any other cities like this a city that therefore was so brutally bombed there were three presidents government presidents who were sought here and I would like to finish with a concept that I would like to defend which is the silenced heritage a heritage that we know that has been hidden covered up the heritage does not become less of a heritage because it's silence and there is a lot of silenced heritage still and the exhibit on shelters when we started working with shelters some people laughed at us laughed at what it meant to work with shelters and I think in Barcelona just like this morning the deputy mayor said we are pioneers in documenting and working and studying shelters and we must give a voice to this silenced heritage the voice of citizens the voice of Barcelona and I will finish with poetry poetry is one of my passions this is by Don Michoy a female poet the DMZ colony she is Korean and this is only work on Korean I will read it poetry is most effective as a language for the resistance poetry can defy oblivion and I wish that my work will generate literary resistance against geopolitical borders of literary and language conventions let's read poetry let's recover our heritage and this was done thanks to a team effort and I would like to thank everyone and I cannot quote everyone who has worked here but I would like to give a shout out to the subsoil unit of the Catalan police because a lot of the work done in Barcelona could not have been done without them their willful and silent work has always been there and with us we must thank them thank you very much let's move on now I am going to present you some samples of the different shelters which still exist in Paris and in the suburb but it will be only few samples because just inside Paris we had more than 30,000 shelters and most of them are still in place so I don't know if you know this but in France the first Wednesday of each month we can hear the sound of a siren like the siren you can see on the right and it's an exercise to prepare people to feature alert and not only for an aerial alert it could be a chemical accident so it's an exercise and so each month the first Wednesday of each month and it dates of the second world war because it was put in place during the second world war or just before the second world war but what you use to name civil defence but in France we name it passive defence so you can see a siren still in place this siren date of the second world war which was taken by my partner who is somewhere here and this siren is on the top of the roof of the main city hall of Paris so in 1870 there was a war France against Prussian and for the first time Paris was bombed by cannons which were in the suburb of Paris and for the first time Parisians went into the basement protected from the bombing and 45 years later Paris was still bombed but from the air like London and Paris was bombed by planes, by airship and also by a long and big cannon which was at 120 km from Paris this is the impact that we can find in Paris in 1914 and 1918 so during the first world war Parisians went back to the basement of the house like you can see on the top left photos but they also can use the metro or the shelters because the metro or the structure was put in place in 1900 and 20 years later it was the preparation of the second world war and the government decided to organize a serious civil defense because the government realized that maybe the Germans wanted to have a revenge so we were a little bit late if you compare with London with English, with Russian with Italian and so on but when we prepared this civil defense we organized also an exhibition to show to people what kind of shelter they can build or they can pay to have for instance on the left it's the international fair of 1947 and there was a building totally devoted to the different shelters but I know that you want to see some relics of the different shelters which still exist in Paris or in the suburb so I identify three kinds of shelters trenches, civilian shelters gas proof shelters plus another one which I'm going to explain metro stations during the second world war were not considered as shelters but only as refuges so if you want to see the relics of the different shelters you just have to follow the rules so I began by trenches because it's the easiest shelters that we can build to create trenches and just in Paris we dug around 35 kilometers of trenches and to dig these trenches we need arms so we have lots of people who were able to dig the trenches it was workers or scouts or soldiers or unemployed people but we can also use machines like you can see on the right these different these two photos were taken at the level of the Luxembourg garden because most of the shelters of course were in the garden of Paris and on the left you can see a shelter trenches a photo taken during the second world war and in this shelter in this trench you have kids but if it was adult you have four adults by meters two face to face and if it's kids you have six people by meters and on the right you have the photo of the same trench today another kind of shelter has the basement of the building so if we want to consider that the basement can be used as a shelter we had to reinforce it by wood so on the left it's a theory on the right it's a model at the scale 1 to 1 which was presented in the international affair of 1937 a photo of this kind of shelter today so reinforced reinforced by wood another kind of reinforced wood or reinforcing shelter but we can also reinforce basement with metal so this is a theory this is what we can find today another view so this kind of reinforcement reinforced by wood or metal represent more than 40,000 shelters and it was for the civilian people so it 40,000 civilian shelters it's 2,000 shelters by district in Paris we have another kind of shelter it was a gas proof shelter so this gas proof shelter was made with concrete if you want to enter into it you have to go through an airlock so you can see on the photo on the left you can see another door because you have an airlock because at that time we were frightened by attack with gas and you have to purify the air of the shelter so on the right it's a filter so to activate the purification of air you can use bike or by hand, bike on the left and by hand on the right so in Paris we built 250 gas proof shelters plus one gas proof shelters below school and plus 100 shelters in the suburb in the near suburb and we have a when I present the different shelters I say that there are three kind of shelters there are trenches there are reinforced basements and there are gas proof shelters and another kind of shelter which is not really a shelter it's the underground gas proof underground hospital so in Paris we built something like 30 gas proof underground hospital many of them are below city walls gas proof shelters hospital below schools and in this shelter in this gas proof shelter underground hospital it was to cure injured people by bombs by gas or by fire but they never been used the metro can also be used as a refuge as I explained because we this time in the metro the refuge and the shelter and the shelter is gas proof refuge and we have only three gas proof refuge in the metro the other one the other 50 underground metro was only refuge and for people when they went into the metro station to be protected they don't they didn't use only the platform they use also part of the tunnel so you can see people in the metro station and you can see how they go from the platform to the level of the track they use mobile staircase like on the right in Paris we are lucky because we also have 100 kilometers of all underground limestone quarries between 250 to 280 kilometers of underground quarries and I say we are lucky because I enjoy to walk into these quarries so the two black and white photo on the top were taken in 1936 when we thought is it possible to convert these underground quarries into shelters so this is on the top this is a photo today but the difference with the quarries in the suburb in the suburb the quarries are very wide very high you can enter into these quarries by truck but in Paris inside Paris the quarries are at around 20 meters deep so if you want to create a shelter you have first to create staircase leading to 20 meters deep so it's not easy to do and on the map on the left it represents only the 14 and 15 districts and I represent by circle almost 20 places where shelters were built and for people who visit recently Paris whereas a famous shelter is this one where the insurrections of Paris were organized and it's the only shelter that you can officially visit it was at Danfaroche Square just below the Museum of Liberation and it was used it was a civil shelter but it was used by Roland Tanguys the chief of the resistance only the five last days of the occupation of Paris of Paris during the insurrection so as you want to see your reeks of shelters I am going to end my presentation by different photos taken in different shelters so you can see here inscription left in civilian shelters at the level of the basement so the photo on the right or the two photos on the left represent the emergency exit of this shelter so we prepare a weak wall very easy to destroy if we need to exit from the shelter and if the stackage used to enter into the shelter was impossible to use so you have French inscription but during the occupation when the nazi used some building in Paris of course if there was a shelter below Paris below this building they reused this shelter and they put the indication in German so this is German inscription that it still possible it was still possible to see because the two on the top the two bottom on the right and on the center has now destroyed because we decided to build another thing at the place at the same place so as German inscription we can the previous inscription were official but there was also handmade inscription like the two the inscription on the top and the inscription on the left indicate 23rd of March 1918 and it was the first time where was used the big cannon at 120 km of Paris so we discover these two inscriptions in basement of building so this inscription on the left because it was it's on a door and it's written with chalk and it indicate that the engine was check the 27th of December 1939 and it's still in place another kind of another inscription the 4th of April 1943 it was when Renault factory was bombed for the second time and all these four inscriptions have now disappeared but as you can see on the two photos at the bottom when I took the photo I began to be covered by tags and now they totally covered by a mirror by people who visit illegally the quarries and don't respect the quarries and they tag everywhere and the photo on the top and the left indicates the 14th of July 1944 so Paris was still occupied by the German and the 14th of July it's national day and you can see two flags at the bottom of this photo a French and a British flag as a inscription that we can find that there are dozens and dozens inscriptions indicating some different areas which which we had at that time and I'm sorry for the English but on the bottom on the right it's written death to the English because we know that English bombed Paris and the suburb and the last photo with inscription on the left it was a symbol of the French resistance the V for victory and the Laurent Cross above the V and on the right it was an inscription left the 6th of June 1944 so during the Normandy landing because we know even in the cell in J at the exact day when it's happened we know that the American arrived in France at the exact day so it's my last photo because it's written this is the end this is the end of the part of the basement which can be used as a shelter and this is the emergency exit and in Montparnasse cemetery we have a memorial to members of the civil defence which were killed in mission and it's a grave it's a grave where below this grave we buried 156 victims members of the civil defence and if you have some interest about these relics I brought with me some copies of the two books that I wrote about the French shelters thank you good morning I would like to thank the organisers and everyone here for making this possible for making it possible to talk about such I hope that I'm so passionate about such as airy shelters in Barcelona revolutionary infrastructure that revolutionise the physical aspect of the war so many years ago and however today it has become invisible where are these shelters when I started my research I suddenly was faced with the series of difficulties that came due to these occult invisible nature of shelters and the impossibility to see these spaces that I was studying so I wondered what led a city to digging carrying out this huge digging process and what were the conditions that ensued and the research focused on three periods that we believe to be determinant for the understanding of why shelters came into existence why since the end of the war they started to become disconnected and forgotten and why during the transition in us and after they started to be unveiled and appreciated by the citizens all of these with the goal of trying to think about what to do with these shelters what was the response of citizens to shelters what were the characteristics that made it difficult to connect them with the surface and to be able of the dissemination of knowledge and studies when understanding these spaces that are invisible to citizens so in order to understand this new architecture for the fence which was capable of as I said revolutionizing the visual aspect of the city at war we must bear some determinant fact in mind a real warfare the introduction of planes in military tactics an agile element that would drop a projectile from a high altitude that was very destructive with a weight between 25 and 200 kilos that could penetrate 5 to 6 meters into farming land the calculations are not certain and this dissolution or this blurring of any lines changes this reality and this more than 1,500 shelters made up some sort of an underground fortress as I like to call it bear in mind that the industrial city had created productive centers that had become a source of wealth and therefore the top targets in the theories of total warfare so these underground fortress came up as a mode of resistance to these attacks that attempted to create chaos among citizens and stopping productive centers cities and we must also bear in mind another determining aspect that came up during the industrial society which was the fact that some mechanisms were generated for the colonization of normally inhabitable spaces such as the colonization of the airspace and the development that ensued in lighting and ventilation mechanisms that made it possible to inhabit these uninhabitable spaces so we must understand that building shelters is something that happened very quickly in a context of chaos stemming from the first bombings that took place in February 1937 and the city in that context of chaos and stress too represented a phenomena which were mainly how we started seeing a lot of soil around shelters soil that on most occasions had to become a protective layer against the impact of the bombs and a series of gates entry gates that connected the shelters with the surface bear in mind that for most citizens in Barcelona these gates where the first contact with the underground with the subsoil because in Barcelona it was not so normalized to use the underground space as it is today and these gates and these aspects gave shape to the architecture of war air raid shelters had no background this new bombing the systematic bombings on cities were something that happened mainly during the civil war so there was no background and citizens in this context of chaos had to use techniques that were used in traditional architecture I always like to mention for example water mines and how they adapted them to have the adequate dimensions for people and for example water wells were adapted into air raid shelters so that they could guarantee ventilation so we must bear in mind something that is quite representative which is that the shelters were being built on many occasions people access them it was a mixed period building and inhabiting the space happened at the same time and this well you will see later why this is such a determining factor but what I wanted to stress here mainly is that whereas these shelters there was an attempt to regulate them to rules and regulations through the passive defence boards determining well the access gates, stairwells the way accesses should be built to avoid shrapnel going in dimensions capacity these shelters and necessary mechanisms as we said before to guarantee ventilation, lighting water supply all of the necessary equipment for any sort of emergency that would take place in that underground space disconnected from the above ground space well there was a will to standardise these spaces but the chaos of war prevented it from happening prevented standardisation and during my work I saw that yes there was a pattern of these mineshaft style gallery but every shelter is different every shelter is different depending on the depth where it's located the type of protection against bombs you cannot say that once you've seen one shelter you've seen them all because each shelter has its own and therefore and this is what I was saying before I was talking about the importance of the finishings of the shelter and these immersion in the underground that Barcelona citizens experience we must realise that the cohesion of the territory of the land conveyed stability to the mine and in the context of chaos and emergency due to the bombings spaces were used that were not adequate they were precarious I mean the land the soil conveyed stability ceramic walls and Catalan vaults were used the ground was basically compacted earth and so these encapsulation these enveloping was what protected from the impact the shock of the bombs but there were still some detachments of different elements and fixtures due to the the shocks and over time during my work I understood the importance of these coatings these linings because they conveyed this idea of order and often times these shelters were created with urgency and people felt like they were being buried people expressed the feeling that they felt like they were being buried in these spaces which generated a wave of rejection towards these shelters so I would like to stress the importance and how traumatic it was I mean these were spaces that tried to provide the adequate living conditions and all of the characteristics were thought of for good use but due to the lack of resources and the chaos of word all of that led to these experiences of feeling buried and feeling buried and at some point after the end of the world these shelters were no longer built and they were no longer used and society was a society of people who were tired of the war traumatized by the bombings neighbor associations who had dealt with the building of these shelters and well at the end of the war there was this general will and there are some stories talking about how the Franco regime tried to hide these shelters to make people forget about them but in other people believe that on the contrary the Franco regime studied these infrastructures to reuse them in case of future attacks to the city but the truth is that there was a general process of forgetting these spaces, dismantling gates and accesses some shelters were subsequently used houses or as warehouses for buildings and during the first few years of the war they became deconstructed all of the protective soil was removed and slowly but surely they became part of a bad memory for those who experienced the war and they became a place in the imaginary of the new generations that would get to know them through the testimonials of their family members and so in order to start understanding the phenomenon of discovery we must understand that these shelters were very few times conceived to last over time they were just conceived to provide an answer to one of need of shelter and they were slowly but surely forgotten and lost until two things happened at the same time on the one hand urban development work which happened in the city during the 80's and 90's and these works uncovered these spaces in the eyes of citizens who were directly or indirectly impacted by the facts of the war in a new context that allowed for a new reading in order to claim the historic value of these spaces by attaching meaning to them and when these structures started popping up there was a wave of curiosity and some people accessed and documented these spaces but there was no narrative back then telling this story of shelters and conveying their memory and the interest generated by the shelters that kept popping up led to the documentation of these shelters and mainly thanks to two of the pioneers of the study of shelters and who generated a growing interest that was a determinant for reconnecting with these spaces and also due to all of the characteristics that we've seen before the conditions of lack of safety and precariousness of these shelters led to a series of solutions shelters were reconnected to their historic value to remember the facts of the war or in becoming active centers for peace which was one of the premises for the creation of the museum of the shelter at the Plaza de la Liaman, the Diamant Square so all of these new readings came up and I would like to talk a bit about these new ways of connecting shelters through the experience of my work. The first few visits that I made to shelters happened in museums the first shelter that I visited was the 307 shelter, the museum it had due to its characteristics it was somewhat stable so it was possible to visit it and then disseminate the main events of the war always with the with elements guaranteeing the safety of those visiting the shelter and it was a good mechanism, a good way of representing or trying to represent what these spaces meant back in the day but there were also other ways of reconnecting with these spaces through citizens, for example another example was these connections and especially in cultural centers such as in the Quinerdo Center, the La Lira Cultural Center that incorporated these objects as a treasure, these objects that were heritage memory and that were part of their identity and there were other spaces that materialized as the consequences of those conflicts of interest that had taken place around urban development and the resistance that aimed at maintaining preserving those very representative spaces and others the more collective shelters in the public space were paused, remained paused because it was impossible to reconnect them with citizens what happened here in all cases that I think is important is this time clash between with this contrast of materials, these are spaces that are devoid of all information, all narrative and what is perceived here is the footprint of time old materials compared to the new materials leading to curiosity and research and on the other hand as these shelters became more inaccessible it was impossible to access them and then we become dependent on representations that have reached us in video or picture format and we become more and more far removed from this actual physical space of the shelter and we become further and further removed from the actual spaces and here we can see very interesting findings by the archaeology service where we can see these remains these pieces of shelters that will probably never reconnect with the city but which could actually have an impact on anyone seeing them and I would like to mention this new type of representation proposed by the archaeology service which would be a tool that would allow us to in a way provide a solution to these physical limitations that we have when experiencing shelters but I wonder what does it entail not being able to access these shelters and not being able to perceive them in the very place especially these spaces that are so marked and through which there is an emotional bond so what does it mean for the understanding of these spaces I would like to in order to express the importance of these narratives and stories that generate around shelters and mainly due to the lack of access that we have in most of them I would like to show you this picture that I received of a friend an illustrator sent it to me because I talked to him about shelters and he was able to without having accessed the shelters he was able to represent by reading testimonials in our work he was able to represent the ambience that you could have experienced back in the day in the shelters so what do we do with shelters? just to finish I would like to claim the capacity they have to evoke something different and I would like to stress a paradox that I think is a determinant factor for shelters which is that the conditions that would allow us to have an idea a feeling of what people perceived back in the day are the very conditions that do not allow us to access shelters so I would like to stay with that and to also claim the importance of a physical space and an architecture which set a precedent in war architecture linked to cities and just to finish I would like to give you a quote by Judith Pujado written in 2006 that I think is very representative of all of this process of reconnecting with shelters it is obvious that not all shelters will be recovered and well, thank you thank you very much the last intervention connects very well with the question I'm going to ask you to our speakers and then we will have 15 minutes for a Q&A you were asking what does it mean if we cannot access to shelters and I would like to ask all our speakers how do we work to make these places more public how have you been working in your countries and what problems have you been facing and I don't know if you want to talk from the Catalan perspective and from other countries perspectives what have been the obstacles for you to get these places known in the case of Barcelona we have 1322 that's an interesting topic preserve it doesn't mean turn this place into a museum because that's difficult, particularly in Barcelona and here we have representative from the subsoil unit of the Catalan police because these underground spaces are dangerous spaces and as I mentioned before we have to protect people first so some places are impossible to turn into a museum underground places we have to choose when and where and if we cannot preserve these places well we have to make decisions if we cannot preserve these places that cause money because we can open to the public space but then we don't have the money to preserve it and there is no further management and we have to close that public space so we have to think carefully maybe we can give different uses to these places maybe and I'm going to talk about new technologies here we were talking about 3D well thanks to 3D many people who cannot go to shelters can visit the shelters let's think about people who are in a wheelchair or who cannot move or people for instance parents that go with a push chair so thanks to 3D images so senior people or maybe people who have reduced mobility who cannot take stairs we know that many shelters have steps so they can visit these places through 3D representations or images and I think technologies help us to produce these 3D images and then we have to choose carefully what shelters and how we open them to the public because this sensation of fear cannot be reproduced with a 3D image because well it's different so we have to talk about conflict in order to talk about peace and give value to the heritage we have in the city and the goal is not to turn everything into a museum I think that putting signs explaining is important and now we have a website where we can find all written documents, photography linked to air raid shelters and that's a tool also to help citizens to have access to the information but I don't think we have to fall into the trap of thinking that all shelters can be turned into museums so in France and I know Paris but for the France it's the same it's very recently that archaeologists and historians studied the shelters the different photos I presented you most of them I took them with no authorization because I have been studying the shelters for more than 40 years and it's very difficult to explain to archaeologists that they have a historical importance I consider that it's only around 2018 that archaeologists realize that civil different shelters has a historic importance for the Second World War but they just eventually studied the shelters the different students I know who studied who are studying the shelters do these studies very officially but they keep on going into the shelters with no authorization because most of the shelters are below official or below administrative building or below private building so it's very difficult to obtain and the only way to present the shelters is symposium like this one or to write papers to publish different things or to realize 3D mapping but it's very difficult to open shelters to public and for instance when you have the opportunity to come to Paris the only one you can visit is a shelter where organized the instruction of Paris it was the only one which is open every day because it's below the Museum of Liberation and from time to time it's possible to visit 2 or 3 parts of small trenches but only occasionally during for instance a patrimonial day but generally they are not open because when you open an underground structure in France and I think it's the same in Europe you need an access and at least one or two emergency exit and you need to have electricity you have so many contraint that it's very difficult to open shelters so the only way to present shelters is publication and so on for me it's different I spent half of my life in the bunker and we invite everybody to come the shelter is open every single day in the year also Christmas May and whenever money we make money and we do not wait for tax money to come that somebody gives us the money so everybody is invited to come every time to the bunker I would like to answer Karma and to clarify a little bit the topic of the presentation of the shelter I think it's a good tool particularly when we talk of making these shelters accessible because we're talking here about the spaces that are not safe maybe but precisely for that we can understand the feeling experience by the citizens at that time and this is why we cannot access a shelter however it doesn't mean that shelters are not a good tool because it allow us but is this paradox and I say that because I had the opportunity to access to go down a shelter which is not open to the public and it doesn't have electricity doesn't have anything I went down with a lamp through a sewage hole and I found wet galleries corridors with compacted earth noises noises coming from the metro station and I felt it was a newer space that I couldn't control a very different space and for me it was really a tipping point in the understanding of shelters so I think it's really sad that we cannot make all these shelters open to the public but I understand that are not safe spaces for citizens if I cannot something of course when in newspapers there's something which appear that we just discovered a shelter or something like that lots of people want to see this shelter but most of them want to see only by curiosity it's very rare when people want to see because they have some historic interest generally it's just curiosity because it's underground and there are lots of people who want to visit shelters but by curiosity but there are only small ones let's open up the floor to our audience yeah does it work you've been talking about shelters not being safe places I don't agree with you there are shelters that yes they are not safe but others you go down and they seem robust and safe and I would say that those people who use the shelters not the visitors but the ones who use the shelters well there are witnesses and I remember someone from Poplanau old lady that spend the whole war not sleeping at her place but in a shelter with her grandchildren the parents were not there because she felt safer the shelter so here it's the opposite experience so the experiences in shelters were very different and concerning bombings to some people didn't want to go into shelters when there was a bombing and concerning the use we can give to shelters it's obvious that we cannot open up all shelters to the public because I've been in shelters well they are different I think in 2006 I went down many shelters and now I could also access some of these shelters with the help of the Catalan police why because many of these shelters had lost oxygen in 2006 I could go down there they had enough oxygen but not now I find and I'm not an architect that many shelters are very well built than and others they look like a hole we cannot open all shelters to the public but here we have representative from granulles I think in granulles they have a good experience they have marked on the ground where bombings took place and this is very clever because we can talk about many bombings in Barcelona we can organize exhibits and publish books and we've done it but the fact that a girl, a boy walks in the city and see marks where bombings took place with tiles on the floor I think it's fantastic if we can put a signal where a shelter was I think that would help and I remember and remember the shelter in Valencia Street here in Barcelona or in Tituana Square which is quite destroyed but there are very impressive shelters in the case of Paris a very few are open but that the shelter has become the liberation museum for me it's a very powerful metaphor that the model of shelter and Roy Tanguib was there I think that the shelter is now a museum it's for me it's very good and Berlin that can be used as a way to explain the history of Germany it's fantastic I think that some shelters find a use like that or not related to history the shelter in San Adrià in a square is an air raid shelter managed by the district associations which is used to have jazz concerts on Friday and neighborhood activities and it really has a use I think that we could imagine uses for some of these shelters and mark them all and in some cases we could say well if we don't give a use for this space what should we do what happens when we talk about shelters when the sewage was done here when Barcelona was developed they when they injected cement in the city well they had to inject cement in the city of Barcelona because there were all these holes that were shelters so we have to be aware of that what should we do because we have also all these holes in the city of Barcelona we can give these shelters a use or then maybe we should reflect on what to do with all this thank you very much you mentioned at the end the public interest the curiosity of being underground I think there is a very rich tradition in European folklore of the imagination of the underground the underworld and I'm wondering is this something we are seeing now in the heritage presentation in the public interpretation of air raid shelters are we seeing urban legends folklore emerging this is something I am starting to see a bit in my work I wonder if the speakers have any reflection on this contemporary folklore of the shelters everything that is underground can create urban legends this happens here and the work of specialist archeologists architects historians is a little bit to show the story there is a subjective part of the story this is objective I think that we have to say that there is not only one context or framework but several I agree with Shabye we could give a shelter a different use but explaining the story I think that the Winston Churchill shelter in London is a very good example it can be and there is the whole interpretation of the UK with the figures and it gives a very clear idea of the life at that time heritage not just shelter must be given new uses and when we educate when we talk to the students and I don't know what happens in France, in Germany or in the UK but here unfortunately heritage it's not something the population knows well particularly young people so I think it's important to educate to disseminate information and especially it's maybe haven't explained enough and I think we have to do it in order to put an end to all these ghost or urban legends we have to explain the reality even if there is not just one reality so that people can understand from where we come where we go to value the heritage we have because it's important from historical archaeological point of view I think this is the way forward and we need the authorities as Jordi was saying at the beginning we need the authorities to work on democratic memory we see that in the Balearic islands have been working with mass graves and we're not going to talk about this here but it's also very important and I think that the authorities here should deal with shelter not that people come because of any academic question of memory or heritage or so they are interested in history and they want to see that and it's not any kind of curiosity of the bunker but it's clearly expression of they want to know the history what happened at that time Hello it was for Thomas concerning Paris the case of Paris you have said that the concept of passive defense in France we were talking about civil defense but all the in your presentation it was written passive defense so I don't understand if this change took place during the Second World War or is the result of ulterior representations or interpretations and another question referring to some documents that you show us concerning passive defense are they from the beginning of the Second World War or from before the Second World War and the example of Barcelona I know that I prefer to say civil defense because it's the reason why French historians refuse to study this part of the Second World War because it's not a fight that we win or we lose it's just a defense and we stay passive so it's not glorious it's the reason why French historians refuse to study this it's the reason why I prefer to say civil defense like in English in England people used to study civil defense for such a long time in France we just discovered this and about the civil defense yeah of course during the First World War we organized the use of the metro station by the government but it was not named the civil defense but it's the organization which the precursor the civil defense of the Second World War yes I would like to talk about this very much where you are talking the problem I found I am anthropologist and also I work with archaeologists and different groups of research and the big problem I found in every congress that many times you go you explain whatever and many people is there that is not related with any academic or maybe yes by chance then after they start to look for your work yes like this like in twitter email whatever then you don't know exactly what is their their intention you know for example I will explain to you for example you go to Sweden I went to Sweden I went to how is this you know and at the end some people asking but where is this place where where where is the refugee what is what you are talking about where but in one way that is not really for like for show for musilistic things for some democratic memorial yes for other things then it's quite dangerous because sometimes how as Carmen Miros was saying not everything can be like musilistic because it's very very delicating it's not like everyone is happy to have these refugees open yes for like for years we need to be careful because we are not for years we are in one everyone living in a story we already are in one jail already that means that it's like very delicate topic about these refugees about the how you say objectives objectives are it's very good but also there are feelings inside many people is there with their stories not like he was saying in the jail he was saying about the not people you was saying also I forgot the name sorry but you were talking all the time also about people that wants to be in the refugee just because they feel safe and what about that there are buildings every day you can find in Barcelona new buildings then you go you cross I'm not talking about just one day you cross the road after the supper totally in one day one week building the supper in one day absolutely then you start to feel like one kind of Alzheimer yourself because you say what's happened with this huge building at all not the fabrics nothing left that is okay to put in the floor reminding this but not only in the floor we need to take something here was there the situation and happened this not only like one thing like okay new building otherwise we looked like he was saying lower he was talking about this appear like one angel subtly the apocalyptic and the other thing no need to be very careful about what is happening with the refugees 1322 a lot a lot but we cannot open I was in Gracia living in Gracia I asked for going to the refugee I don't know who was managing that time they said no place for anyone no place many people was going I said why they refused to me that no going there inside who was there and even I wrote many things no one allowed some people some people that is very very very delicating the curiosity for the people our experiences I'm working for the Berlin underworld I'm working for the Bunkers talk about tomorrow but one main theme is many people come to us and ask us is this Hitler's bunker was this Hitler here that I guess we learned you experienced nearly the same and you give them at least an example and our job is to take the people on the curiosity and then to bring them back to the times to give them an experience and then an example of what have been and bring them to the facts take their curiosity and hopefully bring them to knowledge that's the job we try to do so I don't think it's bad that the people are curious about underground underworld which even have the myth of that goes back to the Greek antics so we just take that and use that to spread the knowledge that's just my few points on here I will continue passing the floor as Chabi said I think we need to use this question of what to do with shelters and we need a center for the interpretation of the civil war we need to connect these two after so many years a city as Barcelona or a country as Spain we do not yet have a center that really explains what the civil war was so the shelter which was the defense mechanism of the losers of that war it will be very difficult to explain if we do not explain the international context and our own context of our own war if we do not explain all of that we will be able to show very specific structures and we will be able to talk about how dangerous or not is to access them but what we need to do once and for all and for example the Montjuic Castle was a big opportunity to do that that we missed what we need to do is to explain the civil war, the international war that started here and we need to link all of that together otherwise we may be creating structures that well either we do a temporary exhibit we are always doing temporary exhibits but I think once and for all we have to stop creating temporary exhibits spending a lot of money on exhibits that last for a specific period of time and they are very nice but if they are not used subsequently and if we do not consolidate those exhibits well when someone comes to Barcelona and says for example we have the Catalan History Museum yes but it's too general a museum and what we need is to explain for example when our colleague from Berlin tells us that they talk about the pre-war the race of Nazism the Second World War and subsequent times I am jealous and I guess what people in Paris also talk about the resistance so we need to explain this international context and especially the national context and create this link with the shelters thank you yes hello Jose Maria Contel I am head of the German shelter in Gracia and I felt called that by this lady and I would like to say that shelters always group together friends and enemies to take shelter from the bombs because bombs do not tell apart friends or enemies and the Plaza del Diamant shelter has always been open now and before I will talk about it here many people come to the shelter it's open everything is perfectly fine we have tours in Catalan Spanish and English I do not understand where this information came from the information that it was closed I would like to encourage this lady to come and talk to me in private later to talk about that later amongst yourselves and if there are any final comments from the panel otherwise thank you thank you all very much and thank you to the speakers thank you