 Hello everyone. This is Ms. Leisha Brooks, two staff of the SPLC. And today she is coming to speak with us about combating white supremacy in the U.S. military. And I believe she's going to start with her testimony to Congress recently. That'd be wonderful. Thank you so much. And I'm honored to be here. My name is Leisha Brooks. I use she her pronouns. I'm in Montgomery, Alabama. And I am privileged to share with you the testimony that I presented to Congress earlier this year about the topic that I was invited to speak with you all about. So I can just get a little little notes ready. So I'm the Chief of Staff at the Southern Poverty Law Center. We're a civil rights organization. We were founded in 1971. We're based in Montgomery, Alabama. We have offices in five southern states in Washington, D.C. For more than three decades, the SPLC has been monitoring, issuing reports about and training law enforcement officials on far right extremist activity within the United States. Each year, since 1990, we've conducted an annual census of hate groups operating across the U.S. Apologize. Apologies for that. People hold on a second. I should have allowed you to share my screen. It's clearly I'm not managing it well. So five southern states in that. So I want to start by saying right now the white supremacist movement within the United States is growing. And what is wrong with my thing tonight? Hold on. I really don't understand. We'll get it together here. Hold on. Probably too many, too many Zoom meetings in one day. Okay. The white supremacist movement in the United States is surging and presents a distinct and present danger to this country and its institutions, including the U.S. armed forces. Recent investigations have revealed dozens of veterans and active duty service members who are affiliated with white supremacist activity. This is far from a new problem. In fact, the Southern Poverty Law Center has been documenting white supremacist infiltration of the military and urging officials to take substantial and systemic action since 1986. It is now clear that despite these despite some adjustments in policies related to recruitment and conduct within the U.S. armed forces, white supremacist activity continues to persist within the military. Because service members often possess unique training and capabilities, those who are indoctrinated into white supremacist ideology may represent a significant threat to national security and the safety of our communities. It is also clear that this issue has not been taken seriously as the situation warrants at the highest level of our government. In this past December, for example, it was reported that the National Defense Authorization Act was altered in the U.S. Senate to remove the mention of white nationalists in the screening process for military enlistees. Under this change, the Department of Defense is instructed only to screen for extremists and gang-related activity. The omission is significant when we consider the current political and social landscape where officials with clear sympathies for white nationalist ideology are allowed to serve in the White House and hate groups have reached historic numbers and mass killings are taking place at the hands of white supremacists. We've been doing for more than 30 years, as well we've been doing for more than 30 years, we urge Congress and the Department of Defense to develop and enforce clear policies that will establish a true zero-tolerant standard for white supremacist activity within all branches of U.S. armed forces. For its part, Congress must exercise a strong and continuing oversight role to ensure that our military is not infiltrated by white supremacists who want to obtain specialized weapons training so that they can threaten the safety of our nation in furtherance of an agenda of hate. In recent years, we've witnessed devastating violence carried out by individuals radicalized by white supremacist propaganda. This propaganda found primarily online is intended to recruit young people into an extremist worldview that portrays white people as being systemically replaced by non-white migrants and people of color more broadly. And that demands urgent radical and violent action. This anti-democratic movement puts a premium on the type of training afforded by the U.S. armed forces. It is thus no surprise that hate groups and individuals encourage their followers to join a branch of the military and that they target existing service members for recruitment. In 2018, the Southern Property Law Center documented the largest number of active hate groups, 1020, since it began this annual census of groups in 1990. Most alarming, the number of white supremacist groups rose by nearly 50%. These disturbing trends are driven by three major factors, rising anxiety over rapid demographic change in the United States, a toxic political rhetoric that singles out and demonizes specific communities based on their immutable characteristics, and the unchecked proliferation of hateful propaganda and extremist misinformation on social media and the broader Internet. All of these factors affect our service members just as they do the broader population in the United States. White supremacist organizations appear to have enjoyed a measure of success in their ambitions of reaching members of the U.S. armed forces. According to a 2019 poll conducted by the Military Times, 36% of active duty service members who were surveyed reported seeing signs of white nationalism or racist ideology in the U.S. armed forces. A significant rise from the year before when 22% reported witnessing extremist views. In the same survey, more than half of service members of color reported experiencing incidents of racism or racist ideology. That's up from 42% in 2017. During the same period, the SPLC documented an alarming upward trend in white supremacist violence. Recent attacks in El Paso, Texas, Pahue, California, and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania are stark reminders of the threat posed by white supremacist ideology and those it motivates to act. Each of these attacks was inspired by white supremacist ideas, particularly animosity toward nonwhite migrants. The perpetrators in El Paso, Pahue, and Pittsburgh each were demonstrably influenced by the propaganda of white supremacist organizations and their leaders. A number of additional plots by white supremacists have been thwarted. The arrest of Lieutenant Christopher Paul Hansen, a 49-year-old serving in the Coast Guard, provides a recent example of threat posed by those radicalized by white supremacist materials who are currently active in the U.S. Armed Force. Lieutenant Hassan, who also spent time in the Marine Corps and the Army National Guard, pleaded guilty to federal gun and drug charges, including unlawful possession of unregistered silencers, unlawful possession of firearm silencers, unidentified by serial number, possession of a firearm by an attic, and unlawful user of controlled substance, and the possession of a controlled substance in October of 2019. He was sentenced to more than 13 years in prison in February of this year. He identified as a white nationalist and advocated for, quote-unquote, focus of violence against journalists, democratic politicians, professors, U.S. Supreme Court justices, and leftists, quote-unquote, in order to establish a white ethno-state. He had been engaged with white supremacist ideology before he joined the military in the 1980s. The Department of Homeland Security last year recognized the increased threat posed by white supremacist terrorism in the United States. In a September 19, 2019 document, the Department of Homeland Security's strategic framework for targeting terrorism and targeted violence published roughly two months after a man in Texas killed 22 people in El Paso to stop the cultural and ethnic replacement of white people in the United States. The DHS acknowledges that white supremacist violent extremism, one type of racially and ethnically motivated violent extremism, is one of the most potent forces driving domestic terrorism. Lone attackers opposed to cells or organizations generally perpetuate these kinds of attacks. They're also a part of a broader movement. The report concludes that domestic terrorism poses as large a threat to the United States as terrorism from overseas. This was a major course correction for the Department. For years, the DHS downplayed the dangers posed by violent white supremacists despite the warnings of its analysts. The 2009 report warned that the economic downturn in the election of the nation's first African-American president might provide fuel for right-wing extremists and that amid the war on terror, right-wing extremists might attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities. Despite the report's accuracy and warnings, then Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano retracted it under pressure from conservatives who claimed falsely that it portrayed them as a security threat. According to its own statements, the FBI has also prioritized white supremacist violence. Last July, FBI Director Christopher Ray noted at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing that domestic terrorist arrests were roughly on par with the number made in relation to international terrorism cases. He told the committee that the FBI had already been involved in roughly 100 domestic terrorism cases and that most involved some form of white supremacy. Earlier in the year, Ray also told the House Judiciary Committee that the FBI had elevated racially motivated violent extremism to a national threat priority. Not only is the terror threat diverse, it is unrelenting, he said. The spike in arrests and potential mass shooters made in the aftermath of the El Paso attack also illustrates the seriousness of the white supremacist threat. A survey conducted by HuffPost found that in the four weeks following the August 2019 attack, more than 40 people were arrested for plotting mass killings. Roughly a dozen of those cases involve some form of right wing ideology. It is critical that branches of the U.S. Armed Services treat the growing threat of white supremacy with the same seriousness as their colleagues in federal law enforcement. The participation of active duty personnel and veterans in white supremacist activity has long posed a serious threat to the public and other military personnel. Indeed, the Southern Poverty Law Center first began actively lobbying the Department of Defense to prohibit all military personnel from being members of or participating in the activities of white supremacist groups in 1986. While steps have since been taken to prevent racist extremists from entering the U.S. Armed Forces, numerous recent examples of violent white supremacists with current or former involvement in the military shows those responses have been inadequate. Over the last two years, we have identified dozens of former and active duty military personnel among the membership of some of the country's most dangerous white supremacist groups. Those groups include the Autumn Waffen Division, a neo-Nazi group whose members have allegedly been responsible for five murders since 2017. One of the people killed was a gay Jewish college student named Blaise Bernstein, with stab more than 20 times. Brandon Russell, who launched the Autumn Waffen in 2015 from an online forum called Iron March, served in the Florida Army National Guard. After his roommate, Devin Arthurs, killed the peers two other roommates who were also members of Autumn Waffen, police found a stash of explosive materials and homemade fuses. Inside a cooler labeled with Brandon's name, they found a homemade explosive used in past terror attacks, including the London bombing in 2005. A framed photo of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McFay was found in Russell's bedroom. Police released Russell after questioning, but only hours later he was arrested by Florida's sheriff's deputies who found an AR-style assault weapon and more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his car. He also possessed flyers that read, don't prepare for exams, prepare for race war. According to authors, Russell joined the National Guard in order to receive the kind of skills he would need to prepare for that potential race war. He joined specifically for the knowledge and the training, and he wants to use that training against the government, Arthurs said during a police interrogation. He also told them that Russell had acquired guns and trained other Autumn Waffen members in their use. The Autumn Waffen division specifically targets members of the armed services and its members are encouraged to enlist in the military to acquire specialized training. The US military gives great training. You learn how to fight and survive. Joshua Beckett, an Autumn Waffen member who formerly served as an army combat engineer told other members in the group's online chat. While Beckett appears to have left the military when he joined Autumn Waffen, other members were still active in the armed forces while they were involved in the neo-Nazi group. The Liso Pistolis was a Marine Lance corporal when he became a member of the group's North Carolina cell. The search history of his computer was highly disturbing. It included searches for information about the Norwegian terrorist, Anders Brevik, who killed 77 people in 2011. The specific firearms equipment Brevik used in his attack and manuals for building explosives and rifles. Soldiers, criminals, and workers made the best Nazis. It's just a fact. Corrin Storm, Carver, then an active member of the US Army station at Fort Bliss in El Paso wrote in a chat with other Autumn Waffen members in 2018. Carver also praised the actions of white supremacist terrorist Dylan Roof, who killed nine black worshippers in Charleston, South Carolina church in 2015, but added, shooting up a geriatrics in a church is a soft target. Altogether, investigators have found seven members of Autumn Waffen who have served in the military. A significant number considering the group has likely ever had at most 100 members. Because of their sophisticated weapons and explosive training, these members significantly increase the group's potential to carry out deadly threats. Despite the Defense Department's insistence that it is taking all the necessary actions to prevent extremism, extremist from operating within the ranks, Russell's case demonstrates that military officials at times are ignoring, either willfully or through neglect, clear signs of extremist activity among service members. Indeed, in an investigation launched after Russell's arrest, the Florida National Guard found that Russell and Autumn Waffen Division had an Autumn Waffen Division tattoo, but that it apparently failed to prompt any action on the part of the guard. The investigation acquired by ProPublica also found that Russell had expressed hatred towards homosexuals and seemed very anxious to receive body armor and keep his military gear. Nevertheless, investigators concluded that the guard had not neglected its duties by allowing Russell to continue to serve. Russell has since been sentenced to five years in prison on charges related to the explosive materials found in his apartment. From prison, he has attempted to send instructions for building explosives to another member of the neo-nazi group. Autumn Waffen Division is one of a growing number of groups that embrace violence as a tool that will ultimately help them forment a race war. They are one of many groups that believe society should be pushed to collapse, providing them with the opportunity to build an all-white, non-Jewish ethno-state. Like Autumn Waffen Division, they organize themselves into networks of clandestine cells, each charged with committing targeted acts of violence they believe will sow societal discord and ultimately attract more white people to their ranks. It is worth noting that not all white supremacists extremists who promote revolutionary violence belong to hate groups. In fact, the numbers radicalized through online extremist communities and propaganda likely far outnumber those who belong to formal groups. We are especially concerned that terroristic cell-style white supremacist groups that embrace paramilitarism conduct tactical training camps for members and continually encourage members to carry out attacks against both people and the nation's infrastructure will attract veterans and active duty service members to their ranks. The recent arrests of two trained soldiers, one from the United States and one from Canada, who belong to a terroristic white supremacist group called the base have only highlighted our fears. Brian Mark Limley Jr., who previously was previously a Calvary Scout in the U.S. Army and Patrick Jordan Matthews, a combat engineer in the Canadian Army Reserve until last August, were both arrested in January on federal gun charges in Maryland. According to an FBI investigation on an encrypted chat, members of the base discussed among other things, creating a white ethno-state committing acts of violence against minority communities, including African Americans and Jewish Americans, the organization's military-style training camps, and ways to make improvised explosive devices. Limley once wrote, I dream about killing so much that I frequently walk into the walk in the wrong direction for extended periods of time at work. One day after Limley and Matthew were arrested, along with another base member, authorities arrested three other members of the group in Georgia for conspiring to murder a couple involved in anti-fascist activism. In addition, in the spring of 2019, 11 service members associated with Identity Europa, a white nationalist group, now known by another name, were identified and reported to be under investigation by military officials. Those service members included a Lance Corporal in the Marines, a master sergeant in the Air Force, a specialist and physician in the Army, National Guard members in Minnesota, in Texas, and two Army ROTC cadets. Their affiliation with white supremacy came to light only after online correspondence among Identity Europa members was released, underscoring both the widespread presence of white supremacists and the inconsistent nature of efforts to detect and weed extremists from the U.S. armed forces. Right-wing extremists poisoning the ranks of the military or extremists using their military training to further their races and often violent ambitions, again, is not a new problem. Historically, many of the white power movements most infamous leaders have served in the military. Frazier Glenn Miller served 20 years in the U.S. Army, including two tours of duty in Vietnam and 13 years as a Green Beret. Afterward, he founded the California, Carolina Knights of the Klu Klux Klan, and with the help of active duty soldiers began to amass illegal weapons and conduct military training. Miller, who also founded the White Patriot Party, had ties to the Order, a white supremacist terrorist organization whose members carried out har robberies and assassinated Denver radio show host Alan Berg. During a trial for criminal contempt in 1986, a witness testified that he had prepared weapons and explosives for Miller, including 13 armor-piercing anti-take rockets for military personnel. Miller later served three years in prison for his involvement in a plot to kill the SPLC founder. He and other Klansmen were flushed out of their mobile home in Missouri, where the FBI found C-4 explosives, hand grenades, automatic weapons, and ammunition. In November 2015, Miller was sentenced to death on murder charges after he killed three people during an April 13, 2014 attack on Jewish facilities in Overland Park, Kansas. Another well-known white supremacist, Louis Beam, who popularized the leaderless resistance model of white supremacist terrorism that is experiencing a revival in much of the movement, served as a helicopter gunner in the Army during the Vietnam War. Shortly after his return, he joined the United Klans of America and went on to become one of the most influential leaders in the white power movement during the 80s and 90s. He maintained a close relationship with Richard Butler, the head of Aryan Nation, who was himself an Army veteran. The Northwest Front, a white nationalist hate group that aims to build a white homeland in the Pacific Northwest, was founded by Army veteran Harold Covington. Michael Tubbs, the leader of the Florida chapter of a neo-Confederate hate group, the League of the South, is a former green beret with expertise in demolitions. In the 1990s, Tubbs was arrested on charges related to a huge cache of weapons and explosives he had amassed, including 45 pounds of C-4 explosives, an anti-aircraft machine gun, and 25 pounds of TNT. Authorities believe the arsenal was stolen from the military. A letter found by authorities suggested that Tubbs was planning to use the arsenal to outfit his group, Knights of the New Order, which was dedicated to fostering the welfare of the white Aryan race. I could go on and on with stories about past folks, including William Pierce, but we won't. The SPLC has long advocated for the Department of Defense to take strong action to prevent individuals who harbor extremist ideologies, including white supremacy from serving. In 1986, we urged then Secretary of Defense, Casper Weinberger, to investigate the participation of service members involved with Frazier Glenn Miller's KKK pair military activities and to issue a prohibition on active duty personnel from membership in any clan group. Secretary Weinberger did issue a directive instructing service members that they must reject participation in white supremacy, neo-nazi, and other such groups which espouse or attempt to create over-discrimination. He told military personnel they were barred from active participation in these groups. However, as University of Chicago assistant professor Kathleen Bielu explains in her book Bringing the War Home, The White Power Movement and Paramilitary America, the directive said nothing about other kinds of actions that undergirded white power activity such as membership, excluding, organizing, or leading, distributing propaganda or displaying white power symbols. As a result, active duty personnel continued both passive and active participation in the white power movement. In 1994, six months before the Oklahoma City bombing by Gulf War veteran Timothy McBae, we wrote Attorney General Janet Reno to warn her of the growing threat of domestic terrorism. In the wake of the Oklahoma City and the murder of a black couple by skinheads serving as active duty paratroopers with the 82nd airborne in 1995, the Defense Department tightened regulations on participation of active duty service members in extremist activities. But the increased scrutiny on white supremacy affiliation did not last. Facing recruitment shortages during wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military relaxed recruitment standards and largely turned a blind eye toward the extremist beliefs or affiliation of potential recruits. In 2006, the SPLC released a report that highlighted the continuing presence of white supremacists in the movement and once again reached out to ask the Department of Defense to implement a zero tolerance policy on white supremacy. Then Undersecretary of Defense David Chu dismissed the SPLC's report as inaccurate and misleading and misleading and claimed despite our documentation of extremist activity serving in the US, actively extremist activities by those actively serving in the US armed forces that had zero tolerance policy was already in place. Again, in 2008 and 2009, the SPLC wrote letters to the Department of Defense urging an investigation with little result. Clearly the problem persists to this day. We urge the subcommittee in this Congress to exercise oversight responsibilities and use its powers to ensure that every branch of the military take the strongest action possible to prevent the infiltration of white supremacists and to weed out those who are already active. They represent a serious and ongoing threat not only to military order and the values that service members are sworn to uphold but to the safety of every American. So thank you for your patience with me through that. That I think presents, does present SPLC's position and long history on really advocating that US armed forces do more to thwart the threat from violent extremists in the military. And as you as you heard and recounting kind of decade to decade, we've made some make some steps and then some steps have been taken back. And we believe that it's past time to re-institute or institute in a very real sense a zero tolerance policy on the acceptance of white supremacist beliefs, ideology and practices within the US military. So with that as a backdrop, I shared with Jackson that I also wanted to engage the group in a conversation about the Appropriations Act. I don't know or the appropriations bill you may have read about it. And I was just wondering if anyone is familiar with the appropriations bill that passed the house and is expected to pass the Senate with a veto proof vote. President Trump has threatened to veto the bill because it includes the renaming of 10 military installations that are currently named after Confederate leaders or Confederate so-called Confederate heroes. Also has another list of many other additional amendments. And so I wondered if y'all were talking about it, if you're thinking about it, if we could talk about it, I want to open it up at this point, if that's okay with you, Jackson. That sounds perfect. So attendees, you can type in the chat. If you want to just quickly, oh I've heard about the appropriations bill but I don't know much about it or I've read the entire thing. I don't know if there's anyone here who's done that but that would be funny. And then we can kind of open it up to a more discussion base. Okay, let me give a little more background while we're waiting for the questions. The little bit of trivia, the appropriations bill has never been vetoed, has never has always passed for the past 60 years. So if President Trump is successful in his veto and it doesn't pass, this will be the first. But the FY21 appropriation bill recognizes the need for systemic or change with respect to systemic racism by removing symbols of hate and we call, excuse me, symbols of the Confederacy, symbols of hate. Another thing that the Southern Poverty Law Center has done over the last few years is create a catalog of all of the symbols of the Confederacy that are located in public space. We did that, we issued our first report whose heritage in 2016 and have updated it a couple of times and note that there are over 1800 symbols of the Confederacy, be there statues, monuments, military installations, street names, parks, schools, you have it. So we're wanting to change that and the center and myself in particular was thrilled when military leadership on their own in the immediate aftermath that the murder of George Floyd that they on their own decided that they wanted to change the names of these military installations that are named after Confederate leaders. I don't even know if you knew, 10 US military installations are named after Confederate leaders and it's important to note that Confederate leaders are the ones that fought on the side of the Confederacy to maintain the system of enslavement. Some even be as Confederacy as traders to the US government. So it's always perplexing to me to wonder why US military installations are named after the losing side. But that's just me. We have a couple of comments so far. One person said they read about some of the amendments introduced by representative Jackie Spear to improve diversity in the military promotion process and combat white supremacy. Do you know about these amendments? Could you speak more about them? Yes. There are a couple of different, I mean overall I think what they're trying to do with the appropriations bill and really applaud Member Spear that there really are, as I read, they're looking, they want to recognize the need to confront the crisis of systemic racism and remove symbols of hatred from the military. They want to uplift and practice the values of diversity, equity, and inclusion within the military. I have to tell you when I presented this gave testimony at the House, there are many members of the subcommittee who are former military, have connections with the military and love the military and take great offense that white supremacists and others who kind of use the military to carry out nefarious activities, they take great offense to it. They have a great love and respect and appreciation for the military. And it was again after the murder of George Floyd and we began to experience what many are calling this moment of racial reckoning, people are looking at it and our elected officials and leaders are looking at ways to change, ways to acknowledge systems that undergird or continue to support a white supremacist culture that is in fact harmful to citizens of the United States. So I think they're trying to do all of that. And again, I just have to underscore that the idea to change the names of these installations came from the military service leaders committee at the top with no prompting, no advocacy, they just came out with it on their own. It was quite amazing. That was really incredible. That's a really good step forward. And notice you mentioned Timothy McVeigh when you were discussing possible kind of inspirations for these white nationalists. And I think something that people in our generation tend to forget because I was born in like 2000. So I wasn't even around back then. But the stories of Timothy McVeigh and the far right terrorist groups gaining a big ground in the mid 90s, especially after Waco in the United States is something that people don't often talk about. And a lot of that, I mean, Timothy McVeigh found the goal for. And that's something that the armed forces had had a reckoning with for a long time, but have not yet fully acknowledged. And I think it's the connective tissue. There's a book called The Turner Diaries. And you may or may not be familiar with it because, you know, it was written long ago, but it continues to inspire people like Timothy McVeigh or modern day Dylan roofs. It's a dystopian novel about the end of the end of the white race. And it it continues to fuel this false narrative, this belief that there's some white genocide afoot, that white people are being intentionally displaced. And so in The Turner Diaries, it sets up a plan to create disruption, a civil war or a race war. Some people refer to the civil war, some people refer to the race war, where things can be reset and white folks can reclaim their proper authority, that things have gotten so out of control, there's no other path to live out our lives without complete and utter disruption. So Timothy McVeigh and the bombing at Oklahoma City was meant to be that type of disruption. You referenced Waco, they also many people who adopt to have a white supremacist ideology or this kind of believe in these conspiracy theorists also are very anti-military and anti-law enforcement. So when you had the showdown at Waco and also at Ruby Ridge, then it's these kinds of things make them believe that see the government is against us too, no one is on our side, they're calling out the military to kill us. Law enforcement is not here to protect us, they're here to to toward our progress as well. So it's very interesting because often I think people think of white supremacists, people who are white supremacists or adopt a white supremacist ideology as in line with law enforcement or in line with military and it's just it's not the case at all. They use the military as a stated in the testimony, they use it to develop their skills. You're finding you're finding the same thing, it's not it's not just particular to the U.S. but if I don't know if you're familiar with what's going on in Germany for instance, their armed armed forces are practically overrun by far right extremists and they are really trying to get a handle on what to do about it. It's so bad that it's almost open and it's really been difficult or challenging for military leaders to push back against it especially as their their politics and as they continue to elect representatives that echo their sentiment that you know have a far right view anyway. So it's it's it's something that we're seeing happening in the UK as well. So it's something that that we too in the U.S. have to look at and accept that people who who have bad intentions are joining the military and see what we you know how can we how can we reject them first because it used to be that if you had a tattoo or any you know outward sign or symbol that you were affiliated with with these groups you'd be instantly rejected but as I mentioned when when it became clear that you know recruitment was low and we had two wars going on then we began to loosen standards around that and have never regained ground on in that respect. I guess that kind of leads to the next logical question which would be like historically you mentioned you know screening for tattoos and stuff have there been effective policies at trying to root out these beliefs from the military and from the armed forces either in the U.S. or through denotification in Germany no no no the only thing I mean the the center does advocate for our we call it I mean it's a radicalization process that happens to folks to get them to this point so we do advocate and support de-radicalization especially for people who were in the military and became radicalized when they were in the military um we want them released from the military and we would we would advocate for them to to have the support of the military in in terms of their re-de-radicalization because if we don't they'll just go on to you know do what it is that they were taught to do. I think we we're finding that it's easier at the front end to do some real screening and and and things can be done pretty easily you can you can look at people's social media platforms see what they're posting and get a pretty good idea of where people stand it's not it's not it's really not that difficult and and in terms of the tattoos the Southern Harvey Law Center and the anti-defamation defamation league both have you know we have tools and resources that help folks identify what tattoos mean right so there are some things that can be done instantly oftentimes and then in part of the appropriations bill looks at not selling confederate memorabilia on a military base as well. I referenced a survey from military times paper where active militaries that report that they see signs of white nationalism and white supremacy on base that means they're seeing confederate flags they're seeing Nazi symbols they're they're seeing things that that evidence some belief or attachment to white supremacy so you could you could you could start there and just not not allow allow that to continue and of course you know just active monitoring I was listening to an NPR story this morning about god I forget the base but that whole blow-up that happened yesterday and all these people high-level military officials were fired because of how they mishandled sexual harassment at a particular base and they were just talking about how things were ignored the signs are there and so if it's our intention to root out white supremacists or people with extremist extremist thoughts then we'll do that but if it's not our intention then we won't do that. That makes a lot of sense you have to want to do it to really get any traction there that is very surprising what you said about the confederate memorabilia that would be allowed on it like government property but well if we can name government property after I suppose that makes sense it's terrible we have one question from the audience I also wonder if my everyone is attending you guys can submit questions under the q&a and we'll see them we'll get through them and they ask that it seems like congress has prioritized recruitment goals over combating white supremacy but are those two mutually exclusive there is something about the military that obviously attracts those kinds of people but is there a way to you know prioritize recruiting but then also kind of steer people away from those ideas you're saying if someone presents with some idea or thoughts or some leanings then kind of retrain them once they come in is that what you're suggesting more like how can the military continue to recruit highly which it needs to continue to recruit while also trying to avoid these individuals let me just say that that people that possess these these leanings are you know kind of come in with the with with these kinds of thoughts with respect to white supremacy and you know or white nationalists or call themselves white nationalists are few so that that would have a minute if any impact on recruiting goals so so there's that it's a matter of and I think that the I haven't done the research on it but it seems to me based on what I've been reading that the recruits of late have primarily been undocumented people people of color as it always is like people of color poor people so I don't think that I don't think that they're mutually exclusive at all or are incompatible in terms of rooting out white nationalists is not incompatible with maintaining recruitment goals at all I think that makes a lot of sense yeah I feel like that could always be like a straw man argument and it's what and then and then it's like you're you're right that that the military and law enforcement historically attract a certain type so maybe there's a lesson there in terms of this archetype that we're creating for a military for military personnel or for law enforcement personnel maybe there maybe there's an opportunity for us to look at that that's actually leads to another question that we have and it's beyond white supremacists pushing like their own followers to join the military there is would you say that there is something in the military culture currently that kind of further radicalizes people or pushes people in that direction and if there is how do we adjust that internally how does the DOD change the culture so that doesn't no I don't I don't think we found that at all because I mean the military as as you know it's about kind of following orders and following protocol it's about it's about respecting difference regardless kind of respecting who your commanding officer is and following following kind of a set of values it's that let's not forget that it's the military that was the first to integrate it's it's for many for many new recruits it's the first time that they've ever been in a diverse environment at all so it's not it's not it's not the military it's that these folks are coming into the military to take advantage of specialized training so the military could certainly do a better job in monitoring and paying attention to what people are doing and what they're excited about and that should like let off some red flags and like oh and you're just a little bit too interested in playing with this gun like you know something I mean I don't know I yeah it could be the it could be the you know kind of heightened masculinization I don't know I'm sure there's some cultural things in there but I wouldn't say they're specific to white white supremacist ideology at all or yeah that makes a lot of sense that I mean the military has historically been used at times for a force for social change yeah yeah exactly in our generation we tend to remember just like don't ask don't tell kind of stuff you know not very progressive but in historically it's been used as a tool like that well even that changed until recently right and it's gonna it's gonna flip back again in a little bit um we have another question about this is a very topical question given how many people are you know bringing forth tales of people misusing power do members of the military who report incidences of white supremacy face backlash from their colleagues they could yes yeah and that that's a that's a problem that's inherent to the culture and that's something that they that's something that needs to be looked at right anyone should be able to report it and have it be um um investigated fully investigated and taken seriously right um we're not too far away from that that movie you know you don't you don't want the truth or you can't help the truth whatever yeah it's the same like that shouldn't be anyone should be able to say hey I think this guy's like a white supremacist you know and it should be investigated just like you know um allegations of sexual harassment these things need to be taken seriously and it shouldn't depend on on your rank at all yeah these are things that are much more important than rank um I guess we'll just ask a few more questions um this one's I think I really think it's pretty interesting uh given the history of the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security especially in regards to minorities and their kind of dodgy history um some people argue that it is more important for these institutions to kind of step up and have more investigating power over possible white supremacist in the military other people don't have as much trust in those institutions how would you say the center would say about what the center would say about organization like the FBI taking a closer look at that we're not to be clear we're not we're not um inviting you know um kind of the FBI to to insert itself into the military at all what we're suggesting is that um that military military leaders listen to the um research and analysis that's coming from the FBI because in Homeland Security because and we can't always point to it but now we can because we've had um an FBI director who has flatly said that white the that the attacks from white supremacists and white nationalists is the biggest threat to domestic tranquility that are the the real threat in terms of domestic terrorism comes from white supremacy so we want to use that analysis that that talking point if you will to help influence oversight over the military but we have to kind of take our research where where we can get it and invite them to to listen to kind of folks who are supposed to know who have done who have done the the research and analysis because yeah I mean there's still problems with the FBI and DOJ and all that um a lot of this talk around domestic the domestic terrorist and white supremacists are leading them to um a place that the center doesn't advocate towards increased criminalization at large they want to now um identify these folks as domestic terrorists and create a whole new category kind of of uh to criminalize folks we don't want that we we really are advocating for um deradicalization of some sort we don't need to we don't need another classification another way to put people away forever um lots of lots of people are you know very susceptible to these messages if we did a better job you know in lots of different ways in in early education in secondary education in college if we did a better job before they got to the military then they wouldn't buy into these um conspiracy theories around um around gent white genocide or any of this I mean if we had real conversations about race and shifting racial demographics and what that means and what it doesn't mean then maybe they wouldn't buy it but we don't want to talk about it at all and then you know somebody comes along and offers an idea that um they can buy and have someone point at some someone or some group um to answer for you know why they're not getting a job or whatever then they then that's what happens so for me it's like it's like engaging all of us engaging in real conversations about um the dynamics uh around race not just race but you know kind of all all the issues we wouldn't have like this fear of trans people if if in the military or anywhere else if we if we like talk so that's just my belief I think that makes a lot of sense we'll just wrap it up with one more question okay um and it is what to what degree do you think that the kind of coarseness in uh mainstream political discourse has led to the increase in these groups that we haven't really seen since like the 90s and what do you think are good steps that we should take to combat this rise okay well I kind of kind of previewed that um and it really goes back to it's it is shifting demographics so so that has really caused what people are referring to as white racial anxiety you know and now it's become people like use it as an excuse not an excuse it's a it's a kind of an explanation for what happened so in 2010 when you were just 10 years old um the census came out for the first time and said that white people would no longer hold the numeric majority by 2050 or something and then like because that's the first time people heard that right even though and depending upon where you live in the country I I was from California so wasn't a big surprise to me but in in the midwest and in the south and specific people like what like what's going on what's happening um it was also that same year that um we were allowed to identify by more than one race in the census which of course the ancient history for you but so when people were able to I to properly identify as biracial multi-racial and check different boxes that takes away the numbers from the white primarily from white folks and from black folks so the numbers like began to look different um the the demographic shifts that began you know gosh they've been going on for some time but now we're at a place where Asian and Pacific Islanders are the fastest growing racial ethnic group in the country Latinos through um in immigration have have a bit of a jump but um black and white kind of numbers are pretty much stagnant right um black people are 13 percent about 12 or 13 percent of the total u.s population and our population growth won't grow beyond kind of 15 percent in any given year same with white people just not changing it's not happening so the so the the numbers the numbers continue to skew and white people see continue to become a minority and now people are paying attention to it and begin beginning to see it in different parts of the country and then they're like what what happened then couple that with the election of Barack Obama and it's like oh my gosh what is happening so we weren't again prepared for um the the the pluralistic yeah egalitarian society that we talk about right um but it was happening anyway so people and people who believed in white supremacy you know before then before during and after began to say hey you're um something is happening and really is there there is a concerted effort to suppress the white population and that's being hand that's that's being carried out through increased migration and immigration so that's why you had the push back on immigration because they felt like immigrants were being brought in to replace them so you know you have a few few things going on with that then of course there's always the anti-Semitism that blames Jewish people for um orchestrating this whole this whole thing to to create a white minority and um and you have us you have us where we are today so we we we go through the the um two terms of President Obama um hate groups begin to grow in ways we've never seen before then you have Trump who comes out you know during his um when he announced his campaign and just you know his rhetoric feeds into um an existing narrative around um displacement and around anti-immigrants around anti-Muslim all this in and then you have Trump and so um you know that that offers some relief to people and then you have things like Charlottesville and then you have like what are you then they're just marching in the street talking about um you know chanting neo-nazi slogans that normally they would have been doing just online but they became emboldened by um the increased um affirmation and support that they felt they got from the Trump administration not yeah so so now we're we're here and um we'll see what happens we don't expect um it to die down immediately because there's a new administration in fact hate groups tend to grow under democratic administrations and shrink under republican administrations traditionally and anti-government groups as well but there's been it's been such a tense for years and what with you know some people not accepting the election results and increased paramilitary activity and chaos will reign for a little bit it's not good no very happy note thank you so much for joining us tonight and taking the time out of your day thank you appreciate this is wonderful