 Former National Chairman of the All-Pregressive Congress, A.P.C. Adams O'Shumale, has blamed the People's Democratic Party for the ongoing fuel scarcity. And Labour Party presidential candidate Peter O'Beat represents hope for Nigeria's restoration, says former senior special assistant to Governor Yosemite of River State, R.A. S. Franklin. This is Post-Politics. I am Mary Anna Claude. Comrade Adams O'Shumale, the former National Chairman of the All-Pregressive Congress, A.P.C. has said the inability of the People's Democratic Party, PDP, to fix Nigeria's refineries during its 16-year reign is partly responsible for the ongoing fuel scarcity. Fuel scarcity resurfaced across Nigeria some weeks back, with some marketers adjusting the pump price. O'Shumale, who is the Deputy Director-General of the Tinibu Shetima Campaign Council, blamed the opposition party for its inconsistency on privatisation of refineries. According to him, one of the major crises the former President Goodlock Jonathan faced was dealing with the crisis around premium motor-spirit known as petrol. He listed the successes of the A.P.C. administration led by President Mohammed Bukhari since assumption of office in May 2015 to include the Petroleum Industry Act and attracting the right investment to the sector, including the refinery in Lagos owned by Africa's richest man, Aliko Dangote. Now, for those who do not know, the PDP produced Nigeria's President from 1999 to 2015 when A.P.C.'s Bukhari won the presidential election to end the second-term bid of Jonathan. Joining us to discuss this is Adebayo Adidosu. He is the Assistant Director of the Aspera Mobilisation and Allied Matters with the A.P.C., P.C.C. and then he is also joining us, who is a member of the People's Democratic Party and he is a party chieftain. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. Neither of you just make a quick correction. I am the Assistant Director for, that is in all your state, while at the national level I am a member of the Stakeholders Relations Directorate. So don't let me claim what I am not doing. Assistant Directorship is for all your states. All right, great. Osai, so good to have you join us. Always a pleasure. Great. I'm going to start with you. So the claims that your former party chairman is making, he's said that the Petroleum Industry Act is one of the things that he would give a past mic to President Bukhari for doing in terms of the petroleum industry. But then you're also laying claim to a refinery that is being put up by Africa's richest man, Dangoti, but then we have refineries that are moribund and then workers who are being paid every other year. How does that... Well, it's very, very simple. I'm glad the former chairman of APC and the former governor of those states actually delved into that. We cannot take away the years of wastage of PDP. There's no way we're going to forgive that. Because the thing with the average Nigerian is we always forget where we're coming from. There's no way we can forget where we're coming from. The years of wastages brought us to our knees as a nation. There was a time when refineries were being given out like a bazaar under the PDP government and how many of the refineries were built. I happened to come into contact with some Petroleum players in 2017-2018 who were trying to pretend to be interested in building the refineries for what they were awarded licenses for. But the only thing they wanted to do, they took the oilways that were attached to each license. They took it to the international oil black market to sell. And they wanted to deceive the government that they have partners who are going to work with them to build those refineries. Whereas they are only interested in the oil wells. We cannot take that away. And let us also remember, under the rule of PDP from 1999 to 2015, millions of dollars were spent on turnaround maintenance. What were they able to maintain? Why was it so difficult for them between 1999 and 2015 to have just one refinery? But the same can be said under the Buhari administration. Millions and millions are being earmacked every other day for turnaround maintenance in this refineries. These same refineries that you are making reference to, hold on. Yes, the same thing happened this year. If not a few months ago, where the federal government declared a certain amount of money in trillions for turnaround maintenance of these same refineries that I started by telling you are not working but then we have staff who are being paid every single day. So if you are pointing fingers with the biggest point of gravity... Don't let us get it twisted. The baseline is a government, a party was in power for 16 years. Are you saying because it is now the Buhari-led administration those refineries should no longer be maintained when we have not added new ones? We have not added new ones. So exactly what we are advocating for is a total breakdown of those refineries. They still need to be maintained when we are the other. Remember, we are not producing, we are not refining all our particular products in Nigeria but we are still refining. I don't know where people get that fact from that we are not refining at all. What is refining? Hold on. Because I keep asking these questions and I don't get answers. How many barrels do we produce a day in those refineries that you say we are still refining? What is the amount? That is very good. That is why you are a journalist. These are the facts that journalists should go after. We have. What facts do you have? What facts do you have? Have you engaged the DPR? I am not in this administration. We are yet to be able to tell how much we refine per day. Because journalists are quick to throw things out there to understand the minds. I am telling you that as we speak, there is no information. When did you make that effort? Have you been in touch with the DPR? Have you been in touch with NMPC? Have you? Because these facts are out there. So we should not say we go by what we see on social media or what some people banding around. I am not talking about your station or you as a person. What I am talking in general, Nigerians we know are lazy to go after evidence and facts. They are lazy to research into things. And that is why when somebody is easy for somebody to just feed them with junk and they run to town with it. Back to my question. Back to my question. What you just accused the PDP of is happening under your administration. Now don't forget. I am going to let you say come in here because this is not between you and I. But the reason why Buhari wanted to come in was because he thought that Jonathan was doing a bad job. So you are here at seven years and seven months to you leaving the office. You are still telling me about a problem that you told me you had a solution to. Does that not make you look like a joke? Okay. I think from all the indications you are looking for in my addiction. You don't look at the processes of doing things. How long does it take to build a new refinery? How long has Dangute been on this refinery that is building? What is happening to the old refineries? The old refineries have to be maintained because we are still using them. Do you want us to pack them up just like a PDP did? That they sold some of our national assets like Altskorn. Is that the kind of life that we could just condemn it all because they are not functioning so well. Let's just sell them off for a pitas. No, we are not going to do that. For all it is worth. We still have people working there. They are still refining some oil. We will still maintain it until a time when we are able to get new refineries working and get them to produce at optimal level. Osir, I want to bring you in here. He is making a very interesting case here that these refineries are still up and doing. But then I am still yet to get these answers. I have asked this question over and over again. If we are saying that these refineries are working, we are putting in trillions of naira for turnaround maintenance, but then the oil that is refining, the percentage is pretty low. Then really what are we doing? I was enjoying you allowing your studio guest to hang himself. It has been hilarious watching you pull him deeper and deeper into how he can dig himself out of. In the first place, the Buhari administration last year spent about $1.5 billion on turnaround maintenance on just the portal called Refinery. It is hilarious when you hear an APC spokesperson come and ask you a journalist that you should get some more facts about the status of the refineries. It is important that I read this quote. We recognize that today none of our refineries is operating for the various obvious reasons that through the work of this committee you will find out why they are not operating. We are not going to hide anything from you. The person I just quoted is the MD of NNPC, Carrie. It is funny how I can see your head like Nigerians are too lazy to make any research when the NNPC has come out and its public knowledge and public records from the NNPC that none of the refineries are working, even when they spent $1.5 billion just last year. For anyone to come and talk about 16 years of PDP, after they have been in power for eight years and are spending money on turnaround maintenance, there are billions of dollars that hasn't resulted in the production of one refineried barrel of crude oil. It is ridiculous. He mentioned Dan Gautier and he tried to take the credit for that. Maybe my guest should do some research if he isn't too lazy to do so. Dan Gautier on building 2013. No, let me just call that short. I never claim credit for anything. I said how long does it take to build a refinery? I don't know where you heard that I said I was claiming credit for that and I am aware that you flourished in misinformation. Don't bring that on this programme today. Maria, what do you think the APC is? How unruly they are when you come up on this type of programme and you challenge them? Dan Gautier, review. I think that is very personal. That is very outlandish. I am on coot of view. Gentlemen, let's address the issues. I am very outlandish. Let's address the issues. This kind of behaviour from you. Can we address the issues and not one another? Thank you. Thank you, Maria. Dan Gautier reviewed in 2013 that he was going to build a refinery and he has secured, I think he was at the time, about three billion dollars. So this wasn't a refinery. It started and launched by the Buhari administration. Government is a continuum. The PDP administration created a enabling environment and created enough confidence for Dan Gautier to build a refinery in Nigeria. And it's funny hearing anybody come up here and talk about a lack of process. I want to speak specifically about Adav Shumuli and his comments. He was my former state governor. I have as much as is possible tremendous respect for him. But my party, my campaign has come out to state officially that he is an unstable character. And it goes back to what he said about, and I think they were specifically referencing his flip-flopping when he would endorse one candidate and then the next turn around and could decide that candidate and come back in and endorse that candidate. But I want to specifically speak about first-classity. Shumuli was in 2009 called for the privatisation of the refineries. So it's funny to hear the APC spoke first and come out and say privatising refineries is bad. Oshomule in 2011 was part of the PDP roadshows. I don't know if you remember them, Marianne. When we were going around with Ngozi Okonjo-Owela and Sule Lamedo's SLS at the time, the Central Bank Governor. And even as far back as 2010-2011, we're already warning Nigerians that the first subsidy programme is unsustainable and would bankrupt this country. And I'm referencing Oshomule's participation in that process. He recognised that fact and he called for the privatisation of the refineries. So for him to come almost more than a decade later to now start accusing my candidate, his Excellency Artikawa Bobaka, of being so much corrupt because he wants to privatise the refineries is beyond curious to me. I'm happy to focus on the issues away from the committee issue that we witnessed just now. Nigeria is bankrupt. Our full-scale city regime is predicted to cost to consume about $7 trillion next year. Last year I think we consumed more than a billion dollars. Again, just on full subsidy in August. So a couple of months ago in August. So we have a bankrupt economy. Already, debt servicing is more than federal government revenues. Full subsidy takes almost 50% of our budget deficit. And my candidate is saying the way to go is to take away the subsidy and to privatise inefficient government institutions or establishments that are a drain on resources we do not currently have. That's our plan. It's a clear plan. It's a pragmatic plan. It's a sensible plan. And it's funny to me when I hear your... Let me come back to my guest in the studio. Defending the indefensible. Let me come back to my guest in the studio. Let's talk about the issue of privatisation and of course the same thing that we saw Governor El Rufi, President Bahari and several other people occupy Nigeria for. It's the same thing that this government has finally realised that they need to do. We don't know. As Nigerians, Nigerians have kicked against it. Some have said it's a welcome idea. But going back to what Osir said, President Bahari was one of those who kicked against the subsidy situation. But now the APC is sitting on that issue of subsidy, even though the Finance Minister has come out to say that subsidy will end December of this year. But here we are dealing with the queues, the endless queues. I'm sure that you went through hell and high waters to get fuel to come here. Oh, how did you get the fuel then? Look, I just did not. Okay, interesting. That's the truth. Okay. But let me just quickly say something. It's rather funny and a bit loud for Osir to make those outlandish claims he wasn't making. If any government bankrupted Nigeria, we know who they are. We know who they are. Don't they just restrict it to oil and gas? We know who bankrupted Nigeria. Under the PDP-led administration, we know how much they were selling crude oil per barrel. Was there the will to save? What did they do with the money as of that time? But it seems like Nigeria are so quick to forget. That's why I say there is a history. There is a pattern that we need to go back to. Something that lasted 16 years to destroy you want to fix in a couple of years. Let APC spend that kind of 16 years with the foundation. Country survived. What foundation are you making reference to? Hold on. You gave him enough time without interjecting. He was responding to you. No, he was responding. He was taking your question back. So, without interjecting, foundations have to be made. They have to be laid. A society thrives when there is a structure in place. But did the PDP-led administration build any structure? How much did they realize from the sale of crude oil? Let's just limit it to the Jonathan administration. It was in 2013 that Okonjewiella won Nigeria a recession. In 2014, the same Okonjewiella made noise that is not going to be easy for the next administration because there was no money. That's why the father we have oil went for. The government of PDP. Who's borrowing money to pay salaries? Let's look at one thing. The money that PDP borrowed, that they're saying APC is borrowing more money. We didn't have anything to show for it. Let us balance things. Because you need to compare Apple with Apple. PDP's APC is borrowing money. No doubt, no government survives without borrowing. Even the United States government is about the most indebted in the world. But what do you have to show for the money you collect? APC has a lot to show. It was under the same PDP administration that Donio Kukwe said Nigeria could not afford new coaches. Don't we have new coaches, new trains today, modern train stations? Don't we have new airports? Where is this money coming from? When you have a government that is so wasteful, a government that does not have the political will to tackle situations and bring lasting solutions, lasting solutions need building. They are not something that you throw up like a canopy. They don't go up like that. And that is where the APC government is different. Because the APC government is looking at the foundation, the foundation of the problem. Now, we're talking about the subsidy. I'll be honest with you, Nigerians cannot pay the actual cost of fuel. Nigerians cannot pay except or say, wants to lie to himself. He lives abroad. He knows how much he pays at the pump per liter of fuel. And we bring that down, that we want to be paying the actual cost of fuel. Nigeria will go under and I'm serious about this. Why did the APC come up with the idea? Let me just explain to you. If you know that Nigeria cannot pay for it, why did you come up with the idea? Hold on. And then change your mind to have a... No, no, no, no, no. The subsidy will go, but you cannot take something away from a baby without replacing it with something. Just like you want to move people from your market where you're moving them to. So that is the thing that people are not comprehending. Today, per liter fuel at the pump in Canada is $1.87. During COVID, it went up to $2. Diesel at the pump price in Canada today in Ontario, Toronto to be precise, is $2.33. Today, as of today, those are facts. Because every day, and I mean every day, the price you pay in the morning is not the price you're going to pay in the evening. The price you pay today is not the price you're going to pay tomorrow. But this government, the Niger government has been very kind to Nigerians. Whether Wari government or the PDP government, they have been very kind to Nigerians to actually have the subsidy. Because the moment the subsidy is removed, then we are left with market fluctuations. Okay, so the government has been kind to us. Very kind. And we've continuously had fuel scarcity. We've had to buy fuel at ridiculous amounts. And sometimes you can't even find it. Let me take you back. Let's backtrack. Let's talk about the issue of oil theft. It's under your government. Hold on, hold on. Can I ask my questions? Why? Let's not be unruly. Relax. When I ask my question, then you can respond. There's been an issue of oil theft. A vessel that leads all the way into the sea. There was a pipeline that lead all the way into the sea. We've seen vessels that have come into this country unabated. They have come. They've taken oil out of this country in billions. And recently one of those oil vessels was destroyed by the army. And when Axe, the chief of army, was saying that there was nothing to be investigated. That's one. As we speak, the NMPC has given us zero, zero monies into the coffers of the nation. As we speak, zero naira. And you made mention of the fact that under the PDP administration, they were being wasteful. So there's oil theft under a president who was the minister of petroleum. And everything that's happening under his watch seems to be going down the drain. But NMPC has continued to receive a facelift, yet were unable to do anything, even as much as have some monies in the coffers of the federating account from the NMPC. What did you call it again? Wasteage. Help me understand that. Well, let me first say this. I think it is rather unfair to tag me trying to correct something that's been unruly. You don't bring a guest on and try to... So you didn't let me finish? I just needed to add context to that by saying don't be unruly. Okay, great. That's actually not a statement that is really good for your TV program. Please, let's get that clear. Well, what we are talking about oil theft. This started nine years ago under whose government? Under whose watch? So because it happened then? No, now you are also interrupting me. That's a rhetorical question I'm just putting to you. That's a rhetorical question. Okay. That I put to you. Under whose watch? When you're talking about oil theft, it is a high networked thing. Now, who brought them in? Who allowed this oil theft to abate for so long? Or that under whose watch? It's also under PDB that it started. Why was it that it lasted for so long? It endured for so long. Now the government has seen it. The government is tackling it. Remember, if not for part of the PID, which was PID before, it's now PIA because it's now an act. Under that, the government of President Wary instituted some processes, some programs, some projects that will monitor Niger's oil in real time. We didn't have anything like that before. I'm trying to remember it. So now Nigerian oil is being monitored. That is why we are able to dictate there is a drop somewhere. When there's a drop, we can detect it. And that's why we're able to dictate this leakage. I'll call it leakage theft leakage because when you now look at it, you will understand that even the international community is complicit. Because we have multinationals who are players in the oil industry. Are they going to tell you an eye that they don't know when there's a drop? Are they going to tell you an eye that... But you're supposed to be in control of your country. You are supposed to be in control of your country. But when the system was... Your brothers are porous. You're saying trailers are taking, tankers are taking fuel or products out of the country and nobody sees them. I mean, that also makes us alive. Everybody who's at the border, the customs, the immigration are complicit. So again, why are we pointing fingers at the international community when the problem is here, starting within? That's what I said. It is not something another man can engage in. The oil business is not for you and I. Okay. And the oil companies, the international multinationals, they are complicit. Okay. And for you to deal with issues like this, there are things you need to put in place before you cannot just... For you to tackle a problem, you need to understand the problem. And you need to know the source of the problem. The source of the problem, simple, started nine years ago under the watch of a different party. It had been said, it took so long for it to be tackled, for it to be nipped in the board. But he said earlier, government is a continuum. So the government of APC, unfortunately, now need to bear the weight of a situation that a government... Shouldn't it? Shouldn't it? I mean, why did you apply for the job if you did not do a research into the job that you're going to take up? Hold it. Why did you apply for the job? I'm just asking. Okay. Why did you apply for the job you are doing right now? Oh, I did research. I knew what I was coming in. Oh, you can see it on the surface. You can see it on the surface. But when you come, of course, more tasks will be added on to you. Definitely. Oh, thank you. That is the way government is. In your private corners, I'm sure you'll be like, wow. No, I don't. Oh, don't worry. I'm here to work. I know. Of course, you have to say that. This is a job of serving Nigerians. AAPC government is serving Nigerians better than any government as serving Nigeria. We just want to give the dog a bad name to hang it because this is an election time. So all is fair in warfare, but common sense will prevail for those who have that objectivity, who have that objective mind to scrape beyond the surface. But it is only John Deist minds that will try to cover up for the sins of their fathers. That will try to cover up for the lapses of their grandfathers and uncles. Don't let us sugarcoat it. All right. I'll say I'm going to come back to you quickly. Both of you obviously have your in campaign mode. You have your candidates and you're trying to make a case even though President Buhari is not in this race anymore. Your candidate obviously was the vice president under the Obasanja administration and he's saying this rot in the oil sector has started. The cabal has been built over the years and that your party and whoever you're putting out there to run for office again, of course, needs to bear the brunt of what has happened and also not to play the ostrich in this particular regard. Marianne, one of the reasons why I love coming on your show is that you don't give any quarter and I want to thank you for that. And it's because of that, because of how brutal you are as a journalist that I don't come here to play politics and I'll speak to facts. So for instance, in 2014, when we were in power, Nigeria was importing about 48 million liters of PMS. That was what we were consuming. Today it's about 68 million. So there's been a jump of almost, I think, 19 million, about 20 million liters. The costum, the general costum that's common to the National Assembly to say it's impossible for Nigerians to consume that amount of PMS. That it's either not coming into the country because he isn't even seeing the volume being trucked out of the country because our fuel, since it's so heavily subsidized, is like gold in our neighboring countries, in Chad, in Niger, and all around, in the Republic. So he's saying it's not even a smuggling problem because the amount of tankage you need to truck out that excess 19 million liters per day doesn't exist. We don't have that capacity in the country. So clearly there is some high-level fraud going on. Maria, you mentioned the fact that NFC contributed to FAC and doing it down to zero. For Nigerians of my brother, I will explain what it is. It's not about high-level politics, and I'm not going to mention the fuel. I'll get to that. It simply is because Nigeria does what we do, what we call crude swaps. So basically what happens is our crude oil, we give it to nations and in exchange they give us PMS. We are in this situation because somehow the geniuses in the APC have decided that the NFC is the only body that should import fuel. Before we used to have independent marketers that imported. Right now it's only the APC. It's only the federal government, only the NFC. So they've almost doubled the amount of fuel we consume. And in exchange for that, we are giving out crude. And the result is that coupled with the fact that the NFC reported that almost 700 million barrels, 7 million dollars, 700 million dollars has been stolen from our oil. You have, there's no money. We literally are, we have a colorful subsidy regime. We have high-level oil theft that they are allowing half, not one person to my collection, not one high-level person has lost their job. No one high-level person has been arrested or been prosecuted or investigated. But that can also be said of the last government, the Good Block Jonathan government, how many people were prosecuted under the Jonathan administration in terms of, because if we're saying that this is a high-level, this is a high-level cabal that runs this industry and then we have a government, just as I asked him, how come these same people were, one way or the other, not being caught, made to pay for the crimes if there be any? So why is the same, why could we not say the same about the Jonathan administration? I mean, for what we're accusing the APC of, why wasn't that done under the Jonathan administration? So it's a simple, simple question. Let's pretend, right, for a second that the Jonathan administration was as bad as the APC painted it out to be in 2014-2015. And let's agree that Nigerians said they didn't want that level of corruption, of inefficiencies, of incompetence, and they voted for the APC in 2015. They have had two terms to turn around all the problems they promised they would fix, two full terms, and everything has gotten worse. So it's almost like double jeopardy. Referendum was held in 2015, Nigerians chose the APC. The APC cannot responsibly come on air today to say 16 years of anything. It's an irresponsible position, I think, to take. And for anybody to come on air to say that Nigeria currently monitors oil production, it's patently forced. All we're seeing is another consequence of policy reversals and flip-flops by the APC. The PDP administered oil monitoring, all surveillance and monitoring, all pipeline monitoring contracts to Tom Pulo and other security outfits in the Niger Delta. Buhari came on board and revoked all of them. Immediately, the contracts were re-awarded. It was Tom Pulo and his band of merrymen that started discovering all this illegal pipeline connection. It wasn't because of a drop in oil production, because by your guest's own admission, this thing has been going on for years. So why is it now also coming on to say that it just happened because of high-tech surveillance that Buhari had installed? It didn't happen. It simply was we had an efficient oil pipeline monitoring system in place. Buhari came up and said it's corrupt and reversed it. And then nine years later, after we've lost billions of dollars, he's re-installing it and he wants us to pat him on the back. This government bankrupted this nation. They are as incompetent as they are corrupt. And I'm looking forward to 2023 when Nigerians will vote them out of office. Okay. Quickly, because we're almost, in fact, we're out of time. You want to respond to us before we wrap this up? Yes. I'll say, in all honesty, I think you have been very untrue to see yourself. You have been smart by now. Because simply put, if any government is patently corrupt, it is the PDP. And you know that. You know what happened under your party. You know how contracts were inflated, were not done. We know of ministers charging responsibility of constructing roads, but diverting millions and billions of naira to private pockets to send their children abroad. We know all this fact, right? Don't we? We are not sure. Our memories are not short. So if you're talking about fraud, being endemic, it is PDP that is actually the House of Fraud. We know. Then I'm glad that you talked about pipeline monitoring. That is one of the greatest fraud ever perpetrated by any government in Nigeria. Because what this contrast simply meant was the powers of the Nigerian Navy was taking away and given to individuals simply because you wanted political correctness, because you wanted to patronize them. It is the work of the Navy to actually manage the ICs of any country and to secure the water borders of the country. But PDP did that because their people were the one behind the contract. So it's good that you actually shot yourself in the leg and your uncles and your people would do that project. So please, and you also admitted that poor oil management was really huge under the PDP government. I'm glad you did that to yourself. I think this is a conversation that we have to have again and again. But unfortunately, gentlemen, time is up. I really wish we could talk about how we can bring about solutions as opposed to the blame game between the APC and the PDP. Osir and then he is a PDP. I think I should have a right to rebuttal. We do not have time, Osir. We have to go. We have to go. I'm so sorry. My guess has said that awarding pipeline contracts to individuals is corrupt. We have to go. We have to go, gentlemen. I'm so sorry. Thank you very much. All right. Osir and then he is a PDP chief team. And Adebay Adidosu is the assistant director of diaspora mobilization in all your states. All your states. Yes. All right. Thank you so much for being here, gentlemen. We have to go. We'll take a quick break. And when we return, we'll be assessing the Labour Party's capacity to win in 2023. Stay with us.