 Welcome everyone. Let's talk about urban planning once again. Let's explore in this episode the challenges and solutions for studying people who leave states subsidized housing in Ethiopia, in Morocco, and in South Africa. And I have invited a speaker today, Rafael Bayer from TU Dortmund University to explain why it's important to understand the reasons for their departure and how to overcome the challenges, some methodological challenges of studying this population. Rafael, welcome to our episode. Thanks for the introduction, Rodrigo. I'm happy to be here. So it must be perhaps a little bit obvious, but let's start with the importance of why people leave this state subsidized housing, which I would assume would help policymakers to design more effective housing programs, analyze vulnerable populations. So am I thinking correctly? I think you're right on the right track, but it's even going beyond that because if we are not studying those people that are missing at the resettlement sites, so after they were resettled into towards new housing, then we miss out an important group and all our evaluation efforts are actually at the end of the day, because we leave out a group that we have that we don't include at all in into our analysis. So what was also a methodological concern? Of course. So what was the specific research gap? So what was missing in the research? The biggest research gap is actually that there is almost no research that has ever dealt with people that left resettlement housing. That is due to methodological challenges in finding those people. So most studies actually who would like to evaluate the outcomes of resettlement and public housing interventions are actually dealing with people that are living on the sites. That seems to be straightforward, but it misses out those people that have left or could not afford or didn't want to access new housing. And that is the starting point. So the research gap here is then that we need to find a solution how to include this population group so that we do not end at this point where we recognize that a large part of population is missing, and we find ways to actually engage with these people and study their personal experiences, their lived experiences, their reasons for living and their perceptions towards these resettlement and public housing interventions. A promising background. So let us know about the most important highlights, the findings of your study. The most important highlights of this paper are actually on the methodological side. So I'm referring to three methodological challenges. So how to actually find people who left or were not living at the resettlement sites. And how can we link their research that is naturally of qualitative nature, due to the challenges in finding people, how can we link such in depth research with a more structural critique of large scale standardised housing problems and the third methodological challenge that I address in this paper is how we can account for for time in such research. Okay, so I'm curious to know more and you can if you go indicate specifically in the countries that you studied curious to know more about policy implications or implications to individual lives what can you tell us about that. Yeah, first of all, I think what we found out is that it needs a better and contextually embedded sampling to find these people. And it is clear that affordability seems to be a most crucial part of why people cannot stay in place in these new housing so affordability is crucial if we think about public housing and resettlement issues and to about policy implications but from a methodological point of view. And the policy policy recommendations would also be not to focus only on the resettlement sites, if we want to evaluate and assess the outcomes of public housing and resettlement operations. So let's look at the what now so what do we need to study more now so more case studies more cases with the resettling places you mentioned a focus on the methodologies as you did so what's Yeah, I think the most crucial part is actually to now engage in comparative studies that have that are analyzing the experiences of people that left. So what is their personal experiences and why did they not move into the houses or why couldn't they move into these these houses and these reasons should be actually explored through in depth analysis of housing pathways of particular And if we then have a good number of analysis of housing pathways that produce lots of in depth insights into people's housing experiences, then we are also able to engage in a structural critique of large scale housing dimensions and that would bring us to the point to to be more confident about calling for more choice in the design of large scale standardized housing project. Perfect, some tips for future research. Rafael, this has been a very straight to the point episode as we like. If someone just joined our conversation now, didn't listen to anything we've been talking about, and you wanted that person to remember one, two sentences about this talk, what would it be And that it is not that straightforward to analyze the effects of public housing and resettlement programs if you only study the population that is actually present on the side and that inhabits the houses that were provided by the state. So we have to include in our into our analysis, people that have left those houses again, because they couldn't afford to be to remain in place, or because they didn't want to to remain in these houses, and also those people who were never actually moving into these Only if we include these so called missing people of public housing and resettlement projects, our evaluation and assessments of the impact of resettlement and large scale housing intervention is complete and comprehensive. Great episode, Rafael. Thank you very much. Thanks, you're welcome. 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