 All right, I believe we're live. I can't watch at the same time. So you'll have to tell me hello everybody If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always was my forever and permanent co-host and best friend and wonderful human being it's Tyler What's up, brother? How you doing? Good to be here. Good to see everybody. No Tom this week. Sorry folks. I I Want him to be back as much if not more than you do now. We all we all want to be back believe I'm sure Tyler's ready to the mantle But sadly He's here with me and spirits. Yeah, there you go. There you go Sadly yeah, yeah, he had to get back to his other responsibilities that is taking up his life But he is getting there where we're you know progress is being made So we'll see he'll be back at some point at any rate. We've got a fun show tonight talking about magic in It's some kind of magic I'll say that for sure But first of course the news The news all right rumor engine. It's a 40k thing. It looks like it is somebody cracked the code on this one Oh, yeah, because they it's like somebody put it together with the other boot And it's like clearly sci-fi boot like I have it up on screen in the last like this Matches up perfectly to a different rumor engine where it's the same boot and it's clearly like a 40k type of shoe so I Don't know what's going on here with all these floating rocks. Sure But there you go there you go It was definitely like a 40k leg unless we're getting like a complete redesign of the You know of scaven or something like that that would be the only thing But then they don't wear boots they have little pts or maybe a whole redesign of KO I don't know you know something like that would be what it is, right? Sure Yeah, I would tend to believe like what looking at the picture. It's a 40k thing. Yeah We had a couple of articles this week or certainly since the last show one focusing on gobspreck With curl boys and then we got an article on dragons. Yeah, I have some images from gobspreck because that's in line Both were about magic Which is they're really focusing on it. So so let's talk about the two spells We saw in the article because this is both from the lore, right? These aren't specific to them we already saw gobspreck spell and it's pretty gross and Disturbing and gonna be part of our conversation tonight like you know these these bored wide Awful effect spells right that just like have some Ridiculous effect that just really controls the enemy army these sort of global spells. Yeah, but anyways, that's on his I'm I'm less I have less of an issue with them when they exist on a specific character as we'll talk about Then I do when they exist in a lore where they can be sort of freely taken, you know, right? But maybe I'm thinking about that backwards. We'll talk through it But the The lore of the swamp so we got two spells from it. Yeah, so double black pit As you already said Pretty good through a spell portal. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah Yeah, I mean, what do you think of what do you think of a double black pit? Yeah, I guess only seven so if they're gonna have ways to get bonuses, which I would imagine they will I mean we already seen that he's got some ways to Play around with unbinds So, you know, a lot of these armies nowadays are getting bonuses. They're casting range of 12. Yeah, so probably portal and Roll a dice each month the unit for each six and for each other role that is equal to a greater than unit safe characteristic That unit suffers one mortal wound. So obviously we've probably talked more about the Or a durability meta the you know stacking saves against red meta that we are fully in right now The start of 3.0. This is amazing in that meta. Yeah, I mean if you think about the actual just Sort of what they're up against in the box at right like let's just take the basic comparison Yeah, which is they're up against stormcast, right? Namely, they're up against a bunch of stormcast that all now Are on three ups and two ups. Yeah Right and and that does a quite a lot of mortal wounds to that unit now You know, we should state that like elite models are going to naturally be more resistant than single wound models right you look at something like What are they iron breakers or whatever in the the the dwarven infantry that people kind of like because they're like Actually really cheap in cities and they have a three up base save and suddenly it's like oh, but they're one wound dwarves Mm-hmm, right. So this just melts that unit from existence like two-thirds that unit evaporates just straight out of the gate two-thirds plus realistically Yeah, totally So that's not fun. I mean, it's certainly punishing to the high armor meta a lot of people are relying on That single model with a three up save. That's actually where the action is in 3.0. Sure. Yeah You know, so like in my estimation the important part of most lists is I mean outside of night Haunt night Haunt is a little bit of a different animal because of the nature of ethereal But in most lists you want to figure out how can I get a three up big hero in there? If they can be a monster great, but they don't have to be you know We've talked before on this show about how I'm a big fan of the The steam tank commander Yeah, and you know yet again that guy has proven his worth. I got a good test game in with him last weekend I went when Tom was here. We actually got Seven games in So that was pretty good. Yeah, that's great. I only did one with my test army It was more me playing other armies against Tom so he could get the full experience I'll talk about it during hobby time. But at any rate, you know, that dude continued to do work He's very hard to remove He can sit there and give himself tons of bonuses and ignore rend and basically be on a three or two of those a time He doesn't have the monster keyword. Does he he does not? Okay? I wouldn't think he would I thought there might be something janky going on. Okay, he's just it's just a guy in a tank But he's good in that army. He's bravery eight, which is pretty brave by city standards, you know, so like This doesn't answer the single hero problem is my point. Sure. That's like, yeah, okay Now units that are on a three up. There's still not a ton of that around Though there are a lot of units on a four up and this is still really good against them Yeah, we would have called I mean previously the sort of cap of these horde breaker spells was on a four plus Yeah, if you think about the old gaunt summoner and that thing that ruled what was that late a os 1.0, right? He was just a horde breaker. Yeah, we talked last week About whatever the name of that spell is that the Corruptor does yeah pick a unit Yeah, the dreaded leg. Yeah, yeah And you know both of those are on four ups and those were just nightmares Right because they would just shred your unit down in a world where there's less hordes I don't know if it's as valuable But at the same time God if you if the if the meta does become, you know Sort of full of people with three up and four up base saves, you know larger units then yeah, holy crap That's a good spell, you know, it's just Right We I thought this but on like because shanigans the other day We were expecting there to be you know the sort of the common wisdom was we're gonna see a lot more MSU at the start of 3.0 and I think we have seen a little bit more But I want to say it's a lot more like yeah in my opinion We still see plenty we certainly are saying more of these strong individual hero monsters in particular Yeah, but then you know, there's plenty of incentives that people are taking advantage of to run the 30 sentinels The 30 iron drakes 60 zombies. There's a lot of it right now Yeah, you know, I mean I like I said I played through seven different armies when I was playing Tom Yeah, I tried to take him through the meta and show him kind of top lists and a bunch of different stuff So I piloted an LRL list list against him, you know, I had 40 sentinels, you know two units of 20, right? Mm-hmm. I played a soul like Gravelord's army against him. I had two units of 60 zombies Right, so I mean and and by the way zombies are like basically immune to the spell Sure. Yeah, you know, they're gonna take if you hit a full unit of 60 They take 10 mortal wounds and then realistically they probably get saved two of them. They take wounds on zombies take. Oh, no What will I do? Yeah, you know my clan rats or whatever because I ran escape an army to of course with the 60 clan rats again Same thing, you know six up save don't care like sure Fine, I'll lose a couple clan rats But yeah, no, I think it'll it'll have its place the other one was sneaky miasma Yeah, six range of 18 pick one from the cool boys monster within range this with the caster that monster can make a normal move Hello mighty destroyers Let me tell you why I like this Tyler because this gives me hope that mighty destroyers sticking around my biggest fear I did play iron draws one game over weekend as well Yeah, and spike dark eon off the table like a football at the top of one, which was a great But you know I might one of my biggest fears is that we lose mighty destroyers I really think it's such a potent ability You know the army still playable without it if we do lose it fine enough like it's not the end of the world but But boy does this seeing this spell make me go, okay? Yeah, probably keep it around like let's do this Because that's it is just mighty destroyers with the limitation that now it has to be a monster Right, so you which is fine. Most of what I'm moving with mighty destroyers is a monster anyway, so yeah exactly Yeah, I get a lot of value of that four-inch move on those brutes Sure Everybody out there who's gonna like suddenly get pedantic on me. Yes I understand mighty destroyers is also used for a lot of other things beyond move like fighting in the hero phase and stuff Of course, I understand that I'm just saying that this is the move part of it is often the valuable Really the highly valuable tactic part for setting up what you need to do and actually giving the iron jaws the speed They need to compete anyways, please continue. I just wanted to preempt to the deluge of comments that was inevitably coming Yeah, and then we had the article on dragons a little bit a little bit more info Let's see. So as many of us suspected Krondis is gonna be casting spells and getting bonuses to cast so I think they said to cast on Krondis Yeah, he's a double caster and they said he can get up to Plus three to cast Okay, like implying. It's not a static bonus, but some kind of thing. Yeah So Tyler, what is the up to three mechanic on that dragon? Hmm Maybe Well, it could be simply the damage profile table. Okay. We've certainly seen that before yeah sure that Lowest lowest hanging fruits. Yeah What do you think? At the start of the hero phase roll a d3 This is the bonus that Krondis gets for the remainder of that hero phase. That's my guess. I could see that Yeah, that'd be nice and simple Yeah, we we've seen a little bit of this but it's usually just a static bonus You know, it's like I don't know if we've seen any of the d3 certainly not d6 mechanics I'm thinking like croak, you know static bonus that I think is not affected by anything on croak Obviously the gash is affected by his profile, but yeah, that's good. It's good guess. Yeah so they talked about One of the so this isn't gonna get access to the lore of the storm which I think was one of the Spell lore names for storm cast that could be wrong. That's making a book. Yeah, I had it look back and Let's see. What do we got here talked about a blazing tempest? Missile attack that they're each gonna get 18 inch range that can do anywhere from one to six mortal wounds So just one attack 18 inch range. So, you know, maybe they move like 14 inches somewhere around there You know, use the attack sequence instead of all the dice one or two the target surface one mortal wound on a three of four D three on a five to six d six mortals. So nothing too surprising. Sure. Yeah But apparently they both have that and then they did mention crondis as a built-in spell Atavistic tempest gives him looks like it's gonna be a list of debuff options to enemy units They didn't really yeah, like specify is that gonna be can you get all of these at any given time? Or do you have to pick one or the other whatnot, but they mentioned? Yeah reducing hit rolls attacks rend or save rolls That could be quite good Yeah, indeed. Oh, here it is. I just saw yeah, they did have the image of it here. Yeah, good. Sorry. Go ahead No, that's fine Somebody was said like sent me a note that they can hear a little whistle. Is there like a noise in there somehow? Like it's completely silent where I am. I don't hear anything. I do hear it now. Okay. Okay. That's Hmm. All right here. We'll try something. Give me two seconds. We're gonna bring up this little thing So while you're doing that I'll go and mention yeah Atavistic tempest is spelled as casting value of nine and a range of 24 I've successfully cast pick one enemy unit within range and visible to the caster then pick one of the effects below and Then yeah, there's four options track one from hit rolls for attacks made by that unit Or worse, they're in characteristic of weapons used by that unit to by one to minimum of dash Subtract one from tech characteristic missile weapons used by that unit again to minimum one or subtract one from save rolls For attacks that target that unit. So all of those are amazing Yeah, can you still hear me? Okay. Am I still coming through all right? Yeah All right. I switched to the my audio input. We'll see if that Helps Cool. Sorry everyone. We can't like I don't hear anything any wine and he said There we go. Okay. Good. They texted me and said we fixed it Yay Sorry, everybody. I can't see the comments. So I didn't know it was happening and we don't hear anything. So There you go. Hopefully that's better. I'm sorry everybody Please continue Yeah, so just going through that little spell that he's got there Going to be pretty impactful. We'd already gotten the preview of the Fires of vengeance for Karzai the scarred. So they were just repeating what we had already seen You know in terms of he gets an effect each time. Yeah. Yeah, he kills them Yeah, their new favorite like role-playing game advancement mode Right, you know, it's one of those things where like they they figured it out once with the blood knights and then instantly They're like, oh, where else can we put this? So Guys, I'm gonna yeah pull up the window to look at comments here. I don't know how You guys do this in terms of we always feel like I struggle to look at the comments I'm amazed events that you can do this every time Well, I'm quite used to it It's just I don't have a way to look at it because I only have one screen since I'm in The hotel and my phone won't find this particular thing So that's fun. That's fun. I'll try to keep an eye on the comments guys So Yeah, and then we got a little preview of calamitous tail So they both have this it is a melee attack So range three The attack value is dependent on how many models are within three inches Of one of these dragons So, you know, we've seen that a lot, but if there's 10 models within range, they get 10 attacks Threes to hit threes to wound minus two run two damage pretty good Yeah, need to see the whole picture. That's the answer. Yeah Yep Yes, but it they said, you know the sword past battle tone They still haven't given us an exact date when we're going to see these battle tones. They said it's almost with us 76 war scrolls Good lord. We're gonna, you know, a couple years. We're going to be at 100 Battalions battle plans artifacts power traits fellow or still no explicit mention of battle tactics and grand strategies. So finger crossed Let's only hope. I mean, I really don't want it. Tyler. I really don't want it There I finally found the video over my phone so I can look if I look to the right It's because I'm looking at comments. All right good. Okay Uh, so sorry everyone for the noise. I didn't know it was happening All right, uh, great Yeah, I mean, I'll I'm interested in the dragons. I want to see the whole thing. That's what it comes down to So yep, absolutely Yeah, and then we've got the us open orlando is kicking off this weekend So that's going to be you know in florida and hopefully they've got good They're taking you know taking good steps in terms of everything going on in florida right now. Yeah, it's uh That's It's a rough state to choose Yeah, yeah, I don't know how many they are gonna have I would imagine, you know Over 60. I know there's been some drops, but I'm not not sure. Do you know offhand how many they're expecting for aos? I don't know. I think originally it was 60. I imagine it'll be less You know, especially given what's going on right now. Well, as you mentioned in florida and in the us in general Yeah, so Yeah, it's tough. Um, I mean like it'll be a good size tournament. I'll be interested to see how it comes out, but sure Yeah Yeah, we've got that Flying monkey. I'm going to go to that this weekend. Wichita. I think we're over 40 got around 44 I believe for that one Good mix. Actually, maybe a little bit later. I'll go into a little bit. I got a few stats on that one I thought might be interesting to force the folks Summer slaughter. I saw marty say today is going to go to that one in pennsylvania I think that would be a pretty good turnout for that one too And then all town throw down and so the california is happening I don't think scott reed is organizing this one. I think maybe it's some friends of scott is doing it But yeah, there might be some other events going on, but I saw those are happening in the us this weekend So, yeah, I'm sure gets some interesting results. I agree. Uh, I'm very interested to see how Uh, you know, like the events have been shaping up. Actually, I think with a pretty wide meta Yeah, right. That's actually really nice. You're seeing a lot of different people at the top You know, we're seeing a lot of one days and two days over in the uk here in the us over in australia new zealand And you know, yes, of course, some of the old favorites are there Like you're still seeing zee charkeon and stuff like that Yeah, but there's a lot of other things that are also coming to the top of the list. So Um, yeah, I mean it's Ultimately, I'm excited for what comes out of it. Yeah, man Yeah, I mean real quickly on that, uh, maybe curious your like, uh, check the pulse check Where you are with uh, overall right now like the elevator version I think for me, it's not yet at sort of the best of times worst of times But it it's very intriguing like thinking about the over the six years I do find the meta we're in it's early, uh, quite intriguing because we do appear to have in the aggregate great diversity Uh, particularly historically, I would say in the results ever seen sort of diversity of Religious builds and in the top 10s, you know, what's being viable And then also we do have a number of clear, I think pretty clearly identifiable problems that need to get cleaned up Uh, you know, and there's some that we need it's You know, depending on perspective, it's tbd or it's determined like, you know, there's a lot of concern about the stacking against saves And what it's doing right now I mean if you Let's let's not even take the heavy hand here Sacking against yeah, I know yeah of the sacking saves to counter rent. Let's just take the most minor change here. Tyler. Okay Let's move Marathi up Call it let's be conservative 40 points Make her an even seven, honey. Okay Let's move go trek up to an even five, honey And let's take Archeon and put him in a thousand even Okay I think that alone has some pretty big impacts on the meta right And and by the way that like Archeon is the big offender. He's the one who's skewing everything Right because of what he does when he gets put in zinch or corn or slaves or whatever like he's just this giant problem And like he's I mean he's just ridiculous. Yeah So he's the one who needs the most egregious fix the other ones I could I could be a little more conservative on I mean go trek is truly awful to play against sometimes You know People are like, oh, just walk away from him. Just walk away from go trek is the new shoot the heroes Okay, like I'd love to but he happens to be where I need to go to win the game And if I go over there, I'm dead I know yeah, we've had some continuing conversation about these three and the gash and so on and the community in general has and you know, There's a lot of very perspective. I would say on go trek I think I tend to see him as the most contentious and sort of least coherent of perspectives and in my opinion There are a number of ways to mitigate him Buckethe dice is obviously the most the first one another one is your opponent Which is what happened to me on tuesday. My opponent couldn't make a a three up save to save his life And I got roar off every time against go trick. He wasn't in hunters of the heartland Which of course you can do right now and that maybe that was a arguably a list building mistake that he made He probably should have been in hunters. He should always be in hunters Yeah, maybe he's on the list He should just be in hunters because then he's almost impossible to stop because he can always all out defense himself Yeah, but my opponent. Yeah, he rolled a lot of Once and twos and then it just in terms of the regular saves You know, I was obviously getting some rent, but then especially on the on the ward the three up ward and yeah, so but Yeah, yeah, I mean the buckets a dice thing. All right, so over the weekend. I fought him twice Uh at one point time I attacked him with I got 77 attacks off with clan rats on him and over the course of like Let's say a combat and a half or whatever Um through like this was a unit of clan rats that had completely surrounded him Had the full reach had their max plus one to hit and wound bonus on him, right? So they were on threes and threes Had plus one attack Had death frenzy had a six up ward save Okay I did two wounds to him Yeah, that's wild Okay, so was he rolling quite a bit above average on saves or I don't know if you were I don't know what the math is honestly like I didn't calculate out, you know I mean, I'm like, I'm sure that I'm sure I could calc that out and tell you what the answer was Yes, go track was in hunter, of course every time, right? I also attacked him with a big horde of zombies who mortal on sixes Now I didn't have curse on go track in the clan rat situation because I couldn't you know He was sort of outside nine and then he came in, right? Yeah and The you know, I but I went in with zombies who do mortal wounds on the sixes I attacked him with a horde of zombies also with the plus one attack, right? And did not have vent held because magic is stupid as we'll talk about uh, no and um And uh, you know like I did one wound to him attacking him with 22 23 whatever the maximum number is you can fit around him like I had literally Him double ringed completely surrounded Yeah, like there was not a millimeter of open space where I could have had one more model Sure And yeah, he took one wound and then he turned around and killed the entire zombie unit Yeah, I just find that a little surprising. But yeah, I mean fair enough it can it can happen He also chopped his way through and my entire army of of suns He just went like one giant one mega one mega three babies three rounds in a row boom boom boom Just right through the whole thing You know and it was on the vice like where else am I supposed to go? You know, there's a place I've got to be I don't know what to tell you You know, I can't really yeah. Yeah. Anyways, let's get back to it. Sorry. Yeah, we've uh, I just wanted uh, yeah A couple of comments that we've had come through so it looks like 38 Yeah, Charles Fox is towing this weekend's look forward to seeing you Charles at at the event And then looks like we're over 50 for Old town throwdown, which is awesome 54 players so far. That's great. Yeah, pretty good numbers. Nice Yeah, but yeah flying monkey Folks might find this interesting. So grand strategies Uh, I've so the list went up in the best coast pairings app. I think they went up today We've got 10 price sorcery. That's one. Of course keep a wizard alive. Yep We've got 17 hold the line. Keep about a line alive. Sure Six beast master two of which were archaeon and three dominating presence Dominating presence, you know, I was gonna look was that the one where you need to have a more units It's the territory control the territory control the terrain control. Sorry terrain control. Okay. Yeah I thought it was the more units. I I forgot to check before the show Okay. Yeah, we had three of those two of which were idk and one was the Phoenician list So I could kind of see that with some idk. Sure. Yeah, zip around grab the train. Yeah But yeah, those were the four. All right. What else we got for news? Let's see What else we got? Oh cop. We wanted to mention that a little bit. Yeah. So yeah, good Yeah, we so we had face hammer breast veal Byron and company Who are organizing face hammer tournaments, which I can recall. I know it's coming up really soon They put out their pack This week and it's been the tough to shore in the community over the week You know, we wanted to mention it. I don't know events how much detail you want to go into it We talked a couple of days ago in our prep call that we'd like to do an in-depth show on this topic really You know give it the justice that it deserves over a couple of hours But anything in particular you want to go over with it? It's interesting It's interesting to see them in particular making that move to to move beyond just sort of answering FAQ questions that aren't out yet Speaking of which, where's the FAQ? We're gonna need to send Rob honest working with Rob back out in front of the place for this sign again But um, you know, they actually took a hand at balancing stuff, which I wasn't expecting to be honest So that was uh, that was surprising The yeah, I mean, I it's something I want to think deeply about and present a whole show on Uh, not respond to in the news. It's worthy of a deep dive Yeah Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm really glad for the conversation that it's kicked off. I mean, I think you know The it's messy, but you know in on the whole I think it's not positive for those conversations to happen So, yeah Cool, I think that's it dude for news Oh, very good. I have one more final news thing Which is not only am I traveling today? But I just I know my wife was watching and I want to say happy birthday to her and you should all wish her a happy birthday It's her birthday today And uh, I'm not there for it This is of course the first time I've had to travel in a year and a half and it's on her birthday And uh, today was truly the worst day of travel I have had in many many many many years Uh, so yeah Anyways, uh Happy birthday Kathy. Yes. Happy birthday sweetheart. All right So anyways, let's talk about some pick of the week, man. What do you got? Yeah, coach is back with his talking series. So starting off the 3.0 series on soul black grave lords with Matt Torrell Uh, good show. Yeah, you know, we we did a show on spg Talked about how thought that they might be Well, they were probably oriented or 3.0 And that they might be underrated in terms of looking at them through the 2.0 lens that we were at the time Yeah, and definitely early results. Yeah, they're doing quite well So, yeah, this is a great show coach as usual doing a doing a fantastic job Matt was fantastic on there. So yeah, I would would recommend to go check it out. It's linked down in the comments So you can check that out Last one got to do a shout out uh melnik and dan with cubic shenanigans. They had me on for final part three They've been doing this in depth Dive on 3.0 all things 3.0 over the last three episodes. So we just finished that off, you know Kind of looking at ghp 21 spells battle tactics grand strategies overall thoughts on the state of the game right now You know good things concerns. Yeah, it's a good discussion over a few hours Awesome also linked down below My pick is pretty simple if you do want to see a discussion on comp right now Honest wargamer rob over on his channel had his daily. It's him and Nathan talking about comp I don't agree with all of his thoughts, but that's okay There is room in the world for people of good intention to disagree And but but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless. I generally like Nathan's point of view on a lot of things and Yeah, they kind of talk through the comp situation and What that looks like and uh Yeah, it's it's a it's a good discussion. That's what I'll say. So there you go. Nice. Very cool Uh, thanks raxis and the comments average for 77 spear clan rat attacks on max buff go trick is 2.8 damage There you go. Yeah, yeah, so Definitely not an edge kiss. Thanks raxis Uh, I'm uh, I'm I'm glad that I was within the statistical average All right Uh, cool, man. Let's talk about some hobby time. Uh, what uh, what have you uh, did you get some games in? I did. Yeah, ben. So I hadn't yet played power numbers, which we also had a discussion about the other night Hate it. Yeah, you guys You got a very clear opinion on it right now Yeah, it's going to be one of the ones for flying monkey And I was the one that hadn't played yet and had the most concern around, you know Daughter's cane i'm running 3 by 10 witch elves and 10 snake bows. So you know fairly squishy in terms of the battle line Yeah, we played a luminous list not the hardest luminous list I think that he had 2 by 10 sentinels 20 wardens go trick cathalar What else? Yeah, uh, some other heroes lord regent Now nothing, you know, have a lot of sentinels. Oh 10 dot writers and but yeah, it was It was interesting, you know, I I think You could see my list struggling On that one in certain matchups particularly if I just get shot off early, you know, all the battle line just gets shot off early But yeah, I can appreciate your perspective on power numbers I'm not really sure what my ultimate opinion on it is. I do still think it's intriguing On the surface at least with regard to the battle line requirement and the effect that because certainly it changed my list with flying monkey I had shadow stalkers in my list and I I took those out So I felt I needed at least another battle line. Sure Yeah, I mean it's one of those things where it it definitely will shape list construction It's just so much to think about calculate plan for and handing obssack to You know these very particular units like not all armies battle line is created equal Right, and so it's it's just interesting how you know, you might be playing an army where your battle line kind of sucks And you have you know 10 or 20 bodies on a point, but then One battle line dude gets near it and it's like no, this is mine. No My one makes your 20 Zero Right, I instantly take it from you and I instantly burn it Yeah Right like that's the challenge with it because it's the combination in my mind of that ability the obssack Combined with a burn points scenario where you can't afford to lose a thing for around Right, if it was like a normal escalating back and forth one Can like throw for ray maybe where you can only do a maximum right right or or just Or even if it was just a normal scenario where you know, you're taking it you've got one You got two you kind of trade back and forth Maybe the only time you get rid of one is from the seismic shift I would be a lot less problematic with it Right, the problem is you can burn any number of of objectives in the round so like One wrong misstep you can be calking everything and then some people just have really super duper fast Trixie teleporty Right, whatever whatever battle line they tow one battle line guy in when you don't have one around Your your objectives gone and they burnt it and you lose the game. Yeah, absolutely. That's it Yeah, it's just over that fast. Yeah, I mean one of those situations could be like we talked about I think drops are still Having a meaningful impact on the game. Oh, yeah And you know that that was one thing I was tracking with flying monkey lists And there's still quite a few one drops quite a few two drops But yeah that mission where you have a one drop you out drop your opponent You give them top of one you go bottom of one you get the double You go twice and I mean in some matchups the game You might be able to do enough work in terms of burning Particularly if you then get the choice to burn at the bottom of three and I definitely found that to be quite impactful On power numbers. Yeah, that that choice super impactful. Yeah The combination of that with the ability to snake just makes it almost impossible to like play And feel like you know, you've got a good handle on what's going on. Yeah, that's the challenge I did a little trick like with uh, because he had 10 dawn riders bearing down if he had because he Was able I didn't go first in that game because the lore seeker was there Which is often a good if anybody doesn't know like that's one good use of a lore seeker Is essentially force your opponent to go one because of the potential impact that it could have if that doesn't happen Because he could have wiped out a battle on unit probably with a lore seeker and I wasn't considering that my deployment But anyway, yeah, I had to put the shadow queen Move 10 witch elves my far right right next to the shadow queen So that if he did come in to try to blow up those witch elves He would at least be potentially in combat with the shadow queen Of course, I mean he could have potentially shot a few of them Anyway, there's yeah, there's like little weird things that you you may have to you may have to consider with that one This may this may behoove an entire second show on the scenarios right like a look back. So yeah, yeah, definitely But yeah for myself, uh, I finished up the big project I was working on so very happy about that Uh, I can't talk about it too much But I didn't get a chance to hobby any more than that before I left But I got that giant project done There will be a video coming to the channel on it In the future weeks. So look out for that It'll be fun once I'm able to share that out. I think people are really going to enjoy the video And uh, and the project as a whole When I get back, uh, a box showed up from Martin Orlando for the randathon charity. So now I've got to paint a lumina thing But that's fine. Someday I'll paint my raccast. I'm gonna get to him eventually. It's gonna happen For me, like I said, I Tom was also visiting last week. I did still manage to get a lot done when he was there But uh, but playing seven games of warhammer did chew into my hobby time just a little bit Yeah, uh, but it was good. It was a lot of fun. Uh, got I got to pilot Skaven suns lrl spg iron jaws My city's tempest I And then tom played another one of our club mates. So that was the games. I think that all sounds right Yeah, cool. It's fun times. What were did you have any overall impressions? Of time? Oh, it was an emotional overall coaster That's fair. It was on the town. I'll say that. Yeah, that's fair. Well You know get some more games in and get accustomed to it Indeed he's he's he's well, he's gonna be get his feet put in the fire next week. That's for sure. Yeah, definitely All right, we're good stuff All right, so Tyler you want to talk about magic? Yeah, man Sorry for this one. I apologize everyone. I don't have like a fun presentation today I had really intended to and then I spent six and a half hours sitting on a tarmac stuck in a plane That was just going nowhere. So that was a real fun day. I had So my apologies, so we're just gonna use this little image here as we talk about it Yeah, Tyler where I wanted to start out, right was Magic in 3.0 at a high level 40,000 foot view How impactful do you think magic is in this edition? Overall Yeah, I'm a short answer quite impactful Like to put a number on it 7 out of 10, I feel very confident in terms of like a scale You in particular because We have you know, you look at some of the top armies They are orienting around magic Cogs is usually there It is the most out of bounds endless spell right now relative to its point cost Yep, I feel pretty comfortable saying yeah 45 points Zinch and Lumineth are at the top of that list Lumineth got hit a little bit with twin stones I've been seeing twin stones show up in any in any list actually But the cogs is still quite impactful with with Lumineth Yeah, it's funny because I used cogs and the twin stones in the Lumineth list I ran and all I was doing was using the twin stones to juice up and then power out total eclipse Yeah, which Seems like a reasonable use for it to me But I can't recall offhand the point value of it. I have to look it up but yeah It was it's still relatively cheap. I don't want to say it's 55 points. I think I'll thought might I don't Again, I'm not a normal Lumineth player, but I play against them. So I was able to you know I know what I'm fighting normally And yeah, I mean, you know, it was you set up cogs suddenly You just put in the middle of all the units and your wizards And suddenly everyone's a double caster the twin stones runs gets juiced up to a million Right, and then you just your last spell as you power out total eclipse quite easily with like a plus five or six to cast Yeah Yeah, and it's definitely still quite impactful. I felt it Uh last night actually, yeah total eclipse Yeah, so Z we all know about zinge. I mean it is still Extremely strong and it's not just archion and kairos, you know, we've seen already Some lists without archion that are doing incredibly well and generally oriented around leaning into cogs to get a ton of fake points to really supercharge their summoning And then of course pink horrors But yeah, seraphon not sure how much we're seeing in terms of leaning into magic with seraphon. Sylvanath is back up there Yeah, uh, scaven certainly. Yeah, I think overall it's having quite an impact You know at least in terms of the top in the meta in general Yeah, my honest answer is I think it's an inverted bell curve right now Tyler, that's my answer Okay Because I think all of magic right now is very bifurcated into two categories I don't give a crap if you cast it and it doesn't matter very much Or it's super impactful and it's part of your strat Yeah, okay You know, I've always like there's a saying at our table that magic is dumb Okay All the time in our weekend games Because you'll watch somebody like when you're a normal army Like that casts normal spells and doesn't have a bajillion bonuses, right? Then we've all had this experience where it's like cast on six failed All right, this next spell cast on five failed. All right, this next spell cast on seven failed Okay, my magic phases my hero phase is over, right? Right, right Like we've all been there and You know magic because the nature of how it's on 2d6 Against these progressively higher numbers every number you move it up five six seven eight It actually gets way less reliable Mm-hmm All right, like that that one point that one tick is having huge statistical impacts on your likelihood to achieve it Right assuming you're not packing rerolls bonuses, etc Right playing like playing daughters of canola the mind raiser change is I think a great example of that where It should be an eight to cast with how strong it is But it used to be a seven and just that one tick makes an enormous difference With that spell and how you know how likely it is you're going to get it off or not I played so many games where I can never get that darn spell off even with the plus one Yeah, I mean it's like Yeah, and I would include people who maybe you're just running around with like a plus one Although a plus one does make a big mathematical impact, right? Like it's crazy how much it moves the numbers around But anyways, I mean we're talking like seismic shifts here in efficacy off of plus one plus two 16 20 25 percent increases in your average chance to succeed Right depending on where you are so the The nature of the thing is that you know, I watch a lot of spells and I'm like Okay, you're gonna give me neg one to hit. You know, that's a spell, right? There's a lot of spells. They're like neg one to hit or something like that or neg one to wood or whatever And I'm like, okay You know, I'd rather dispel that it's not that it's not impactful It's just that it feels the right amount of impactful like I have play against that You know what I mean, like, okay, that unit got minus one to hit Now I know I need to use a command ability on it or buff it in some other way to counteract that or just deal with Or you know, deal with the understanding that it's less valuable, right? Or like, okay a d3 mortal wounds and I have my move or I have my Or I don't get to run or you know something like there's a whole host of spells like that, right? Like D3 mortals and some kind of rider penalty, right? Yeah Off into movement or save or whatever Fine again, those feel like spells, right? Like they're they're they they have an impact to the game. I'm not saying they're not impactful, right? I'm just saying like, okay. I can work around it or I understand like it has counterplay And then there's this host of spells That are just like in a completely different league Just doing they just don't look like The other spells and they're they're usually on the same casting numbers Right, they'll be on sixes and sevens, but they'll just have like wildly more powerful effects right And these are the spells that end up getting you know when that when they start to cluster together So like if you take zinch when you're playing with you know a bird And all the appropriate casters And you know like okay the blue scribes fires off and now everyone's got re-rolls and the bird is going to set up a portal You know then cogs comes out. It's like okay, and then the portal comes out. It's like, okay, and then you know You like we all know where this is going, right? Portal should we have the spell portal in game or not? Oh, let's let's talk about that with endless spells spoiler no No, obviously not The you know the nature of the thing it's like okay Well, some unit is going to get something melted or a hero's going to melt right because what's coming next is six mortal wounds Happening almost automatically to a model I'm going to have nothing to say about that because they could be literally outside of my dispel range casting it through the portal Right. Yeah, they're going to melt a hero and make a cast on it's even more challenging now because with Well, I suppose the spell portal you could have still done this but in terms of someone has say a changecaster Frontline behind the screen Chorus in the back, you know where I'm going You have the changecaster put up the spell portal one end goes within one inch of kairos The other one goes 18 inches from that nearly or on the line changecaster So really and then with the shorter board that we're playing in It can be incredibly difficult to zone out, you know to hide From the six mortal wound ball that's coming your way And yeah, I found that and some of these 3.0 games already. It was hard enough in 2.0, but it's even worse now Yeah, and so that's what I mean when I say like it has this inverse spell curve, right? Like a lot of magic sits down here in the like fine. It's interesting. It's doing something Right, it's you know, it's there it like exists and then up here Right on this side. There's all these spells There's a bunch of trash bells over here that no one ever casts and it's just like I don't even know why they They got ridden right see like the lore of the vampires if you want in spg for a great example of like five truly terrible spells or Basically any lore in slanesh that isn't a heal, you know any spell in slanesh that isn't a healing spell, which even then is like That's the best we get, you know So or they're too short range to be sufficiently medieval. Yeah, there's a lot of that in slanesh book. Yeah, yeah, sure It's like oh, what is that range three inches? Don't spoil me But you know, whereas again You watch The magic armies, you know, I've played against the sort of host arcane and zinesh army lots of times And the current castor version of that and there's a couple different builds, right? But they all use cogs And they all set up a castle and they and they end up building without you casting any spells at all They all do something like 10 to 14 faith points every turn Yeah, I was estimating it out today because I was curious We have at least one host arcanum list showing up this weekend and it's the Archeon kairos blue scribes sorg lore change castor plus cogs and yeah, it seemed like they could if they're all around there Yeah, around 13 spells is what I was estimating Right, which is just nuts. Yeah, it's nuts because it's a unit of blues every time I mean, it's a hundred extra wounds over the course of the game Yeah, and you I mean, I don't know if folks if you haven't like sat down and looked at A list particularly this archeon kairos, but even without archeon in terms of the Number of spells and what these spells are doing. It's pretty scary I mean the one thing with zinesh that always been the saving grace Is that generally they operate within the 18 inch kill box, right? And so that was how I would always play try to play around zinge And I do think there's still some of that That you can do it certainly gets a lot more difficult when you have an unkillable Very keely model that's in your face destroying your army that you can't run away from So but yeah, it's it's really interesting like sit down and go through in detail All you know what it it will mean in a game when you're getting hit with these 13 spells Right and how much is going on? Yeah, it's crazy. Yep It ends up being quite a lot of like damage is exactly as you said if you get into the mid-range with them, right? Like if they if it flips to their turn and they activate you got a bunch of stuff close, you know, the the heat is on It's on the streets, right? The mortal wounds are going to come go ahead. Yeah, the one I found Surprising that they haven't fixed that personally. I think does need to get fixed because we are removing We will saves as far as I know Throughout the game for the most part. We saw the few examples shield the fate as one So as far as I know shield the fate you can still get we will saves As long as I think you have to have four or more A dice in your destiny dice pool and then I think if like if you have seven or more You also get the added bonus of a four up to ignore spells and endless spells, which you can stack on Archeon He was an innate four up So in zinge as far as I can tell Archeon can only get a You know, he can we will saves he can easily get Potentially real hits and wounds he can get plus one to hit and wound from his inch spell Like it's it's probably it's probably even worse than the one he can do in corn with a double activation I didn't I didn't know that the shield of fate does rule saves. I didn't I didn't realize I was still out there Oh, it sure does So he can get to like a plus four save Uh, yeah, anyway, it's re-rolling. It's bonkers One of the funnest moments from all the games we played when tom was here was there was a moment where When when my other clubmate and tom played each other tom was playing go track and the zinge player was playing host arcaneum archeon and he slingshot at archeon into the Into the lines of the ko player round one with go track And then go track came into him bottom one And they fought the rest of the game Neither of them died They just sat there and fought and they would do wounds to each other And then heal wounds and do wounds now archeon was coming out the loser because he had drifted out of buff range He had archeon had to eventually retreat go back into buff range get rebuffed and then get back in the fight But archeon was still probably going to lose that in the end But uh, but yeah, they just fight forever. It's just nobody kills each other. They just sit there and Like just five rounds of swinging each other. Um Anyways, the yeah, I mean, so that's why I say to me. I think magic Magic for most of the game and zinge is always a tough one because that is their thing Sure, right like it's supposed to be their thing And I think if they didn't have archeon and if pink wars weren't like the nightmare that they are Yeah, I would be like, yeah, okay cool. Like they're devastating in the magic phase because that's their phase, right? That's what they own. Yeah, that's what they do Maybe make cogs a little more expensive Right, right. I mean like yeah, we'll talk about it in the spells like But you know like zinge generally when you get leveled by magic against zinge. I'm like, okay You know that seems fair because again Pushing archeon to the side for a moment who shouldn't be as cheap and effective in there as he is, right? That's we've already identified that that's a problem. Yeah You know, what do you what are you afraid of in the combat phase against each right or or in the shooting phase? Like their flamers now are so expensive. It's actually yeah very risky to take them Like flamers are properly pointed now. By the way, I'll die on that hill Because they're they're actually glass cannons now and they're fragile for their points I mean you've probably seen from what they're certainly not showing up on this right now But I mean it's understandable why they're not when you've got archeon pinks and etc that are on the table But yeah, sure But like, you know, and by the way, it's not that like 30 pinks tossing Fire at you isn't going to he's going to do zero. It does stuff, you know, I mean, but those aren't their phases So I'm okay with it The the spells I take issue with and and I think this is something we'll discuss later when we talk about like What should be there? What shouldn't be there? But the spells I take issue with are what I'll call the global spells Right things that are affecting huge swaths. Maybe the entire battlefield And putting up just like a massive amount of of impact to the game off of one Spell Right Total eclipse is the classic version of this. Sure Where it's just like this. It's just a spell that shouldn't exist. I don't know why it exists It's too It's counter spell for two mana, right? It's just doing too much For too cheap and like, yeah, I understand they can they cast on an eight Okay, they have like a million ways to achieve that automatically, right? Be it techless or a contemplate or the twin stones or or or or right You know roll a seven and and burn a A penny, you know burn some of their their gold Like there's just options So, um Yeah, I mean like that's and the new swamp collar or the new what's his name gobsmack or whatever Who can who can do the like board wide everybody gets, you know The enemy is minus one to run in charge and the whole arm their whole armies plus one to run in charge Yeah, you know, it's a similar vein that one's clearly not on the same level as total eclipse. Let me be 100 clear Sure, but it's impactful You know, and I'm just not sure we should be doing like that much with magic So you think so, yeah, we have this right So you think we so basically what I'm hearing is saying is that We need to more operate in a fat metal for magic than what we have right now. We have maybe maybe some quite a few examples that are too Irrelevant and then too many examples that are too outside the bounds Certainly, you're saying the latter. Are you saying the former as well that there's too much? That's just somewhat irrelevant. Yeah, yeah 100% Yeah, there's just too many spells that are on the on the bad side That's too. I mean we're not even talking about if we listed those we'd be here all week All right, right because there's a bunch of them on war scrolls There's a bunch of them in spell doors. They literally just read over and go no human No, no sane human being would ever cast this Yeah, right because it just it has zero purpose like who wrote this Right And you know list list labs in the comments smorgan was saying like, you know magic missiles and things like that That the zinge cast that just go on nothing because if you've ever played a zinge player, that's what they do They just casted nothing the first round like sure, you know Shoo shoo shoo stuff goes off into the ether, right? Yeah, and um When I When I see that happening. I'm like, why is that giving you fake points? You're casting out of unbind range at nothing affecting nothing doing nothing And yet you're building your resource like I don't know other army that builds those resources gets to just Not actually interact and do their thing but still do it Mm-hmm, right It let me give you the example that I think would be close ready It'd be like if corn could just like be like, all right Well, I'm not because they have to units have to die, right? Right. It'd be like if they were just okay Well, it's the combat phase. I'm not actually in combat with anyone, but all my units fight I get to I get two blood points. Sure. You didn't fight anything. Yeah, didn't I? Right, right. What are you talking about? Yeah Yeah, that's an experiment so Like the one of the challenges with those big spells like total eclipse and stuff like that Is that The framework the architecture the engine that we have to cast spells Isn't very versatile Okay Like it's 2d6 Against a set number and then there's some effect. Yeah, that's it Right, you have bonuses you can have re-rolls, but it's quite a static architecture Right, so the fact that I am putting both a spell that can do just d3 mortal wounds Maybe like that's a pretty good spell, right? Yeah The fact that I have to contain both that And all command points until my next hero phase are doubled or or whatever, you know pick your giant effect Right that is sort of the a big board sweeper thing The fact that I have to contain both of those on the same architecture Doesn't really work Right because there's not enough ways to create the viability of risk reward to contain those two mechanics Right like if total eclipse Was like oh and if they fail They take d6 mortal wounds or they can only if they if they succeed they can't do it again this game You know, I mean like you have you have to sort of play outside the box to create these additional risk reward mechanics Right because because the foundational element is so simple Well, like take more more war power I mean, I would doubt that that book was written with the thought that we could have nine storm fiends Which I know we've talked a lot about say six storm fiends What are you going to take you know at one point in the game at 2.0 We had nine storm fiends and then that was removed and that was healthy I would say for the for the ecosystem now. We're back to it. But however many you want to take I doubt that was You know that that was in mind with the output of that unit rerolling hits and wounds Now with Skaven. I know that there can be some blowback I don't know. Yeah, you take a d3 mortals on the unit Like if the probability of that Is high enough Particularly relative to you know d3 isn't that bad But that that to me stands out, you know as on a unit like storm fiends in particular that has an enormous impact Yeah, it absolutely does. Um, I do think storm fiends should be captain six By the way, I stand behind that I mean I've said before how I think the nine list is actually a weaker list And I stand it like I also stand behind that it's not going to be the 5.0 tournament winner That doesn't mean it's not a bad time. But that's my all Right, right. You you can be 80 20. Yeah You can be a non tournament winner and npe those two things Don't they're not one of the same, right? Yeah and um You know like when you look at more more war power You think about it on something like gizales. Okay. All right. So let's say six gizales Standard single reinforced gizale unit. Well, they're two wound Rats, right that whole unit has like 12 wounds And so like d3 mortals is actually pretty impactful. You can lose a whole gun. Yeah, you know And uh, but but like clearly it feels more in balance. I don't think anybody complains about more more war power on gizales Sure, it's like my okay Or if you throw more more war power on like a doom wheel, it's like all right. Yeah, you know, exactly Cool, man. I like to have fun, you know, right because it's an eight wound thing Um But when it goes on to storm fiends that are so big, you know, have six seven wounds And can just absorb that penalty realistically Three rounds in a row without potentially losing a guy like that's a possible world to live in You know, if you just average out and you put it on the seven wound, dude You know, that's where it gets problematic, right? You're not paying the cost anymore It's there now. I will say a lot of scaven stuff is like that There's actually quite a lot of scaven stuff that has a kickback cost to it Where it's like you get this bonus to attack or to hit or to whatever, but you suffer mortal wounds Yeah, you know, I mean again scaven are the most fair army I stand behind that from our scaven show because they're the ones who are actually paying the cost Most people just get this sure Right, right. They usually have some kind of kickback of mortal wounds or or some kind of cost like that Of course, it's probably a good time to say that was a good addition to the game I think having miscast come back where I've certainly done that, you know, I've yet to do it with playing in a gash But with marathi three spells First spell there you go double ones. She's done And that's that's impactful. So I do like that. We do have that at least coming back And so maybe what you're saying is, you know, we we should lean into that a little bit more In some of these cases kind of as a general notion, particularly with some of these powerful spells Yeah, like what you'd want with these powerful spells is the ability that when I say the architecture is poor What I mean is every spell costs one spell every, you know, I'm saying when you cast it, it's one cast When you select it, it's one selection Right, it's all the same resource. They're all balanced completely equivalently against each other And because of the weird nature of scaling 2d6 Right, you can't just take the big spell and put it on like 10 Because then it becomes almost statistically impossible if you don't have huge bonuses Right, then you're rolling at like a very slim percentage and you don't try to cast it at all So it kind of swings the opposite direction too hard because rolling 2d6 at a static number like that is actually really dumb That's why heroic recovery is dumb But like the You know, what we need is some different mechanic Right that that would come in there that would have been the way to do it if it took up multiple casts To do it right you could say like like total eclipse could be like You do this and then you know one this caster or another caster loses their spell cast that round Yeah, that's intriguing Right, you know something like that if you if no other spell caster can afford to pay this cost the spell automatically fails Right, yeah, like that would be the kind of architecture you'd need to build in to actually accommodate these big spells Right, right. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah So anyways, all right, let's talk endless spells man because we we have drilled in on this. Let's talk Them endless spells. Yeah Uh, so when we're talking endless spells in 3.0 What what do you think what's your take on them so far? Yeah, I think that The majority of them are worth considering To some degree or another that that is that there's A smaller number there's a minority of ones that I would rule out immediately Like quick silver sorts, which is ridiculously overcosted at 90 points for maybe two mortal wounds that ignores awards save You know, I find that there's very few like that Relatively. Yeah, so well, I mean Okay, I'll I'll give you Maybe not going I'll wait I'll wait to reflect. Yeah. Yeah that the majority I find the majority again at least compelling interesting intriguing from the standpoint of worth consideration when You know, imagining Lots of different lists that folks are writing I could see them considering the majority of these endless spells and these lists Now We're certainly seeing a smaller number Uh than that list that I would say is worth considering that are actually showing up And so, you know cogs life swarm. Yep spell portal. Yeah but Yeah, I think Maybe I have low expectations, but I think They're, you know, pretty good pretty good on the whole Okay rebuttal Yes Cogs life swarm Shackles portal Launching The soul seeker. He's he's he's a dangler down here hanging on the end because he's actually really interesting now He's this he's the sleeper hit of the summer. Okay He's not showing up much yet, but I agree. Yeah He was the one that on the show with Dan and Brenda and like, yeah, we need to keep an eye on list because He's so good now. I don't think people have cotton to him I used him in the soul blight list I played And all he did was shuttle around the vampire lord So that I could always be giving the plus one attack wherever I needed because it can move 18 inches Then you have to set up the model within three So we can kind of slingshot him about 20 21 inches, you know ish around, you know And that really gives him the bubble to kind of be where he needs He's a six to cast. Okay. Yeah, six to cast quite reasonable He's only like 55 points off the top of my head. That sounds right Something like that. Yeah And he can only shuttle wizards now And they have to be wholly within three of him to be shuttled in when they're placed and reset. Yeah Did they take a mortal? Yeah, they take one mortal wound after that after the movie was complete Yep, which I kept saving so Because I mean if you have mortal wound protection, it's like, okay, who cares? Sure um And so like those are the endless bells, man. That's the list The rest of them fire him off the roof Okay, whore guest It's cute. I think I mean, it's yeah, it's list you have to build a list for it. But again, like that notion of I'm you know, where they're at least worth consideration for, you know, overall kind of in the in the big picture Let's see geminids. How much is whore guest? Whore guest I think is 55 or 65. Yeah, it sounds about right that range. Yeah Uh purple sun. No, nope Melstrom. No Nope Palisade very situational I would say I mean, there could be some uses for it But to me would be in that camp with whore guest, you know, if you have a unit you would really really want to try to keep it live You know, it's fairly cheap. I think it's 40 points So it's a little bit of mitigation against some range damage might be coming your way on a critical vulnerable unit. You might do that Geminids is maybe a little too expensive right now. Not necessarily. I think it's 80 It is limited by the fact that It can only turn off command abilities prior to the next combat phase. So you're looking at a leash hell Or what else I mean a leash hell is the big one all out of fence in the shooting phase. Yep, things like that. Yeah Yeah, I mean by the way, we're just talking about the generic endless bells here Not the army specific ones because we talked about the army specific ones previously. I do want to issue a correction I had said rune of petrification was garbage. I would like to take that back I think rune of petrification is actually really good and I was sleeping on it. I didn't catch its wording It's really strong. Uh, anyways, I'm amazed. I don't see more lumeneth players running it. Uh, okay. Sorry now with the generics Yeah Yeah, I mean the problem with this list tyler's you're gonna go horror get you're gonna throw horror gas at me And you're gonna throw the the geminids at me Like those are gonna be the two that you're gonna argue about right? I got one more in mind Okay, what's your other stuff getting grave time get it out of here get your nonsense out of here each unit I understand They're not castles lumeneth. It's you still gotta land that thing. I know you have to land it and it's real big there are Armies that have ways of getting a wizard Yeah, I don't mean I don't mean to land it like cast it I mean land it like it has to physically land somewhere and it's this It is for each unit that is models that pass across lumeneth dice Yeah Like it's so big sure maybe it can go like maybe in the perfect case where you get a wizard real close Then it goes like Exactly in their castle It ends up in front of them like okay, that's cool The problem is there's a lot of easier ways to just kind of sprinkle around d3 mortals and a lot of armies That don't have that don't cost an excessive amount of points The problem with endless spells Right now is that we're literally making the same mistake magic the gathering made In 1996 Okay So we can't get away from magic talk with you Well, when look man when these things have happened before all of this has happened before and all of this will happen Again, I don't know what to tell you Here's what happened when like fourth edition fifth edition magic came out Hmm They were really offended by powerful creatures Okay, so they jacked the cost of creatures way up and knocked their efficacy way down Meanwhile the control spells You know necropotence Counterspell whatever you can pick all your things remained Just mind bogglingly cheap Okay And they did the exact same thing here Right. They took all the damage spells that are like maybe you do a mortal. Maybe you do a d3 mortals Maybe you do those a couple times Maybe assuming they're not unbound, right? Yeah, which most of them aren't that hard to unbind. That's simply yeah I think it's probably the number one issue The point of umbridge that I would take yeah with the nature of these endless spells Is the fact that you can dispel them in your in your opponent's hero phase where they cannot be recast So you're you're playing the game of thinking about dispelling your own endless spell in your opponent's hero phase, which then takes away the double tap Yeah, that's that's a that's a big problem. Yeah I mean, there's just no way they're worth it. You don't get that damage out of them first They most of them have a very short range. Yeah, right Um, like you've got to have your wizards way up there Um, you've got to put them into into like danger close position and then a lot of them are a six Set up in an eight inch move. Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. Which is just not very far Right, right because your wizard has to be kind of exposed because he's got to have the runway to actually like set this thing down And then race it forward without it going over your own troops right and So you've got to be danger close to do it Then you've got to actually cast it Right and not have it unbound And then once that happens, you've got to have it not get just dispelled at the top of your next turn to actually get the Quote-unquote double tap out of it right Now there are there are damaging exceptions Of course like that, but those tend to be army specific Uh, warp lightning vortex coming out of ko. Uh, it's pretty worthless in actual scaven, but it's great in ko Um, I do stand behind the ruin of petrification because it's it's by the way that ruin is like a mini warp lightning vortex I don't know if you've noticed exactly how good that thing is. I was super wrong on it um the the um The terminato out of night haunt Yeah, terminixes, which dan was not keen on I was doing my best to convince him otherwise But yeah, I did see terminixes make its way into a night haunt list at fly monkey this weekend Good choice. Whoever you are player Smart move. It's a good spell Um, yeah, so like but the with the base ones any of them that do damage It's just like it's not even worth it Because they they basically doubled the cost for these Ish again, I don't want to get in lost in the you know a pedantic discussion, right? But your actual chances to get double out of it Are very low And even if you do yeah It's like, okay a couple units took a d3 mortal wounds That's usually what the end point of that is like right You know, it's not nothing it can matter especially if you happen to roll it over some you know utility five wound heroes sure But it often doesn't Right, like what do 30 plague bearers care about that or 10 or 20 or 30 pinks care about that Sure, you know or or or or or Right, there's a lot of examples in this game like a lot and I'm not even talking in like the powerhouse armies. I just mean like units That people have in most armies that are just like I Okay, sure It's fine Yeah, I can see blood rack viper, which didn't go up quite a bit. I think it was maybe like 55 I believe it's 95 now Where you know if you get the chance to double tap that against idoneth against the right army Yeah, certainly, but you know there are some it's involved in that Uh, I can't recall what it's cast on maybe a seven or a minimum six but Yeah, I can't tell you one game vents where you know after more than a dozen games so far Where I've seen a double tap. I don't think it's happened It seems about reports where it happened with emerald life swarm and rally to bring 20 symbols back Well emerald life swarm the trick is that it double taps immediately upon it showing up because it it's it's got broken wording right now It happens on summit and yes Because emerald life form is as when you summon it and then it moves at the end of the movement phase So it actually does it twice right when you summon it Oh, gotcha. That's why everybody likes emerald life swarm right now because it's acting like the inverse of old warplighting world of current warplighting vortex I guess right Yeah, it is yeah, like So, you know, by the way, if you fixed emerald life form, so it should work how it Should which is you know, like every other end the spell where it works once per turn You know that I think people would be like, okay, and you stop seeing it You know almost that quick right because people would just get rid of it The other advantage to emerald life swarm that does make it more valuable is that you can backboard it in your own space Yeah, right All right, it doesn't need to be way out there like it's you can always use it In in the middle of your lines. You don't need to have some wizard danger close to do it, right? Yeah You yeah, incentivize your opponent to potentially expose a caster who they want to then attempt to dispel it Yeah, there's some yeah, so you trade off you can get out of it. Yeah, exactly I mean, my point is they have completely the wrong perception of the value of these things They literally just said oh, well, we made them twice as damaging so we should make them twice as much now No wrong wrong completely wrong Base chip damage is is not how you win a game like it's never been how you win a game Well, it's even less relevant Now in 3.0 I would say that it had been in 2.0 because we have so many more ways to heal in particular individual models. Yeah unless you're like Unless the chip damage is so overwhelming that it becomes real damage You know crowed nato or something like that right where we've gone beyond chip damage into just your Dropping nuclear bombs in the middle of their lines, right? Yeah um It's always just a nice to have thing what wins the game what creates npe what is terrible, but in the spells Is stuff like cogs and portal And you know these kinds of things that are just completely game altering Right because cogs is like oh, I'll just double the amount of magic I have for 45 points I mean cogs is clearly the most bent And the spell in the game right now. There's there's no justification for that being what it costs They need to you know eventually magic figured this out by the way That the control stuff should be more expensive more and the creatures should be cheaper Because that's what the fun part is we all got in this together to go bang bang bang and punch up and kill each other's people Right and have cool fun fights like that's war hammer, right? And control crap that just shuts people's armies off Should generally be more prohibitive You know it should carry a higher cost to it. I mean I I don't think I'm I I don't think I'm saying Something that revolutionary here No, that's just feels like common sense. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. What do you think about shackles? Uh at 65 right now too good, but it's also quite limited Like the problem with shackles is if you're the problem with shackles is you have to be a really good player to know how to use it correctly Yeah, it's that place. Yeah, and it's it's super easy to it to basically screw yourself with it It's the sharpest double-edged sword I've ever seen Biggest oops in the spell absolutely That's honestly why I didn't take it because I was worried about screwing myself Just doing something stupid that yeah Would would haunt me over the weekends but yeah Yeah, so to me the the answer here is simple Like they need to most of what's wrong with the end the spells right now is honestly a points problem Okay, like if you want to spell to cost a hundred points, it should be cogs Or instead we could just fix cogs We could you know like portal you should just make prohibitively expensive because they've it's already been rewritten Yeah, basically to you know The only way it's ever going to be rewritten down to one spell. I still think it's toxic as But make it expensive Right, you really want to you really want to put the the chiros's flame through and like insta kill one of my heroes Right, just like six mortals and now there's a cast spawn in your line deal with that Right because it's a twofer Yeah It's both insta killing one of my heroes and potentially shutting down one of my shooting units Yeah Right because you can just you get that thing can just pop right into combat and So you you want that to be a thing fine make portal like 95 points 100 points, whatever make it prohibitively expensive So it has to be a big part of your strat Um, you know with cogs just rewrite it Rewrite it that the caster who summons it Gets plus one spell That's it Incidentally, I do believe that was what face hammer chose to do with their house rules Yeah, yeah, which is like the the the obviously reasonable thing to do with it You know, I mean, yeah life swarms which it so it only taps once per turn as it should So it is a true inverse of the damaging spells. That's all you need to do there Um shackles is toxic, but like I said, it might be so stupidly toxic to even you You know, it might be like the the chemical weapon of You know of aos like one of the re you know, there's lots of reasons why we don't use those kinds of weapons in warfare anymore Like lots of very good reasons But one of the one of amongst those reasons is they also kill your own troops Right because the wind can change direction really easy and blow that stuff back on you, right? I didn't I just didn't atroce my ability to see the future with shackles this weekend So it's gone. You put it in the wrong place and you're like, oh, oh now I can't run or charge Yeah um Yeah portal, I mean I get why some of you know, it's like it's enticing to want it to stay in the game In some of the things that it opens up But it's just we've had it for far too long and it's been it's been toxic for far too long It just yeah at least needs to go go up a lot in points Or or just go away. I'm pretty tired of it being in the game personally. Okay I'm gonna keep going with the magic stuff. All right The problem with spell portal is not spell portal the problem with enlightened tutor or demonic tutor or any of the tutor spells when they had came out wasn't the tutor Okay, it wasn't that you could fish the thing All right, what what are these spells? What these spells did was they let you like were very cheap spells one Two mana cheap spells and what they would do is search through your deck for either any card or some card in particular Some type of card whatever put in your hand Okay, so they let you go through your whole 60 card deck pull the one out you want There's lots of different tutors in the history of magic, right? They all kind of got this name named after the first one, which was demonic tutor And the problem wasn't the tutor The problem was the spell they went and got because it like part of the balancing mechanic of magic The gathering i'm talking about here was the fact that your cards were randomized in your deck Hmm, right and you you couldn't just like have exactly the card you want when you wanted it, right? Sure and these You didn't go demonic tutor Usually a forest or something right like you didn't go get an average card You went and got the best thing you needed at that moment The most powerful card in your deck that was going to make you win the game It instantly puts you in the in the pole position of having your win con, right? The problem with portal is it's the same thing I don't fear the portal. I fear what portal enables if you have a bunch of average magic If like if if that side of the bell curve didn't exist Yeah, right Then I wouldn't care Like you'd be portaling through a thing that gives me neg one to hit when you're normally out of range of it And I'd be like, okay cool Sure Right fine Great Like yeah Meet use of that spell dog way to go again good game like good move you Right the problem is that's not what gets portaled. Yeah Right. Yeah, it's the uh, it's the tom meme Right, it's with the with the only swarm of spikes Right. Yeah, exactly the entire army Yeah, because it's always that worst thing Right, it's it's whatever the most broken thing you can get there is is what's going to get shoved through that portal Yeah, right So it takes the worst offenders And magnifies their bentness That's the problem. It's a bentness enabler. That's why it's hard to balance Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah Yeah All right. Well, I'm more persuaded by your perspective on this. I do think the You know some of the the high level points that you made Hold on. I want to I want to answer a comment real quick autumn lotus said is vince standing for random tables Please god. Yes. I miss that goofy nonsense Um, I always love random tables spike hates random tables Which is why I love them autumn lotus. Um, I love random tables and stuff I I play scaven like having the right amount of randomness in the game is fun Um, and generally spike hates it and so I like it So there you go That's my answer um So anyways There's another going here from jordan. What do we think about the discrepancy between no Bonuses and huge bonuses to cast making taking regular casters almost useless Yeah, well that brings us to sort of one of our next points, right? Which we can we can because that was on our list kind of the idea of spell balance, right or that kind of thing Yeah, I mean there there are spell doms around certainly. Um, they're not as prevalent as I would think because crook got Changed, I don't even know what to say. I don't know how to put a normative value on that, right? And negash is balanced so Expensively Right and he's so limited in the armies. He can show up in like he's probably not the best pick for soul blight and OBR is kind of in a rough place. So and he's like almost a thousand points Right. So negash kind of balanced himself out of the game to a point Maybe he's he's the one, you know, I'm so tbd on that. I'm getting increasingly concerned though What I'm hearing and seeing I mean for example with negash He is probably right now The most unkillable model with rent if you're trying to do it with rent Sure because of the vingorian lord power pair or an a ferrata power pair Yeah, where of course neppy, uh turns off The uh reduction of rent you cannot reduce rent, but you can still benefit from positive saves And so you can easily get negash to a At least a two up if not well pretty easily honestly a a one up Rerolling once right and then of course we'll find a sour moment. Yeah, you get him to a zero So yeah, like I've heard tells of sigmar they were talking about this I've heard others talk about early experiences with negash some of these power pairs where you just can't can't do anything to them Yeah, which I don't disagree with that and I'm not saying that's not potentially problematic. I'm saying it's a rather contained problem Okay, what do you mean by that? It's he's he's only in two armies And and I don't know that he's the best choice in one of those two armies and like the more powerful army right now Right like sure you're right that can happen. But is that worth almost 1400 points? To do that like that's we're not that's not a little bit of your army anymore Right, that's a lot of your army and by the way, yeah, and by the way neph is pretty fragile Okay Like two ranged output neph kind of folds pretty fast. Certainly mortal wounds. Yeah. Yeah Um, so at any rate, yeah, that's what I think contains that so so Do let me answer the question directly if it was asked Are there too many bonuses? Yes There you go Like I think in general if we're going to do the bonus to cast thing Okay, like if that's going to be a game element that we have That plus two should kind of be where we stop Right, but there's actually more and more plus three sneaking its way into the into the game Um, you know, crondis has it the new dragon Uh, you know, you can get uh, even in knight haunt like there's you can have multiple Potentials three to cast right that was one thing that stood out. Yeah, those early test games against knight haunt is that I thought they need to lean into those endless spells and you know Spell damage more because of the multiple bonuses to cast right they were doing real work to me with Multiple d3 mortal wound ship damage because multiple sources. Yeah, because they they can actually reliably cast now between Between bright north candles and the the bonus candles you get or whatever, you know, you know so um Yeah, the Like I I just think plus three is so massively huge If we're gonna push into some plus three boy, it should be rarefied Right and and come on things that are that are associatedly expensive You know prohibitively expensive like I don't mind my point being like I don't mind the gosh having plus three to cast Yeah, right Yeah, fine. He's a thousand points. He's the god of death like okay cool He he gets plus three to cast right But most other stuff should have like plus one plus two and and that's about it Right and the problem with it is like I said that the the mathematical reliability of it is so huge It changes your numbers that it's problematic when it shows up at all Yeah, yeah Yeah, there's quite a few actions right now that are out there. Yeah with More you know plus two or more in the game The yeah arc an is an interesting one With his mystic shield machine gun that he can do I mean what I've in terms what I've been hearing with OBR is that that's been one of the builds people have been doing where they just become really difficult to get through You know like petrofex elite all over again Love of outdoor ability. Sure because they're now I think ignoring minus one random reducing run by one whichever the case is with the fact But yeah, I mean mystic shield Is on that side of the curve It suddenly became like one of the best spells in the game Your first spell you need to be figuring out how you're resolving in almost any army generically every round is mystic shield Period like it's the only reason I think about taking casters Most of the time in a lot of my armies that where they'd have crappy casters. I'm like, well, I still want to shot at mystic shield right Right like I'll I'll take an arcane tome just to put mystic shield on someone Yeah, definitely Yeah, yeah, that's getting a lot of use right now arcane tome. Sure. Um, I'd rather Like if I was playing iron jaws, I'd rather like I don't use the the shaman because I think shaman's junk Um, I'd rather just put an arcane tome on someone if I had to then and then and mystic shield Rather than go the other way around right on a word channel. Yeah Sure, or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, yeah Yeah, that's good idea. Yeah Because I think I think the channel itself's dumb. I'd rather just take the item and roll at it and just roll hot You know, like maybe I get it. Maybe I don't who cares, but I didn't have to waste a hundred and twenty point model on it Yeah right Yeah, because if you're if you're in that the kind of like I have a bunch of average casters Okay Do you know cool Like you'll get spells and it's fine. That's where magic plays well That's that's where the thing will happen that we mentioned where it's like You know oops all fails Sure At not reasonably tough numbers, but it's that statistics like you can have a 30 40 40 and a 40 chance of failure Sure, it's unlikely you'd fail all three of those right, but it's not that far out It's like within a standard deviation you fail all three of those. Yeah, so All right, let's talk about the Let's talk about what we think are some standout Spells spells in the game. These can be on On war scrolls or not right like what's the best and worst? Let's do that. Okay What's the best and worst Sort of spells in the game and people in the in the chat in the comments hit us up I want to know what you're thinking. What are those best and worst spells? What are your particular favorites that you think are really good to fall into these two categories? So either if you're watching this later drop those down in the comments I'm interested to see your list if you're watching right now throw it over in the in the chat I'm going to be watching to see what people think So Tyler, let's do a couple do a couple chests. What do you got as far as bests? Give me a faction You pick the faction man. You do whatever you want. We can go across. Let's go Let's go. I'll try to let's think of a weird one slaves of darkness. Maybe do it this way Okay, uh, okay slaves in darkness. We've got something out of the cast sorcerer lord Cast sorcerer lord demonic power. There you go. That's still pretty strong in the game right now Because about they have six good range. I think it's holding within 18 Honestly, you've got a lot of pairs that you can, you know, a lot of choices The most obvious binarcyon that you can tie together with that The we've talked a lot about lumineath. I mean techless steering lights, particularly through the spell portal It's 100% still a thing in the game, you know playing these 96 wound daughters cane list I'm terrified of that just hitting my entire army particularly because dockless to castle Yep, uh, so yeah, I I think that's still really strong in the game. There's a couple Okay, all right, very nice Uh, let's see. Oh, uh real quick here. Dante asked thoughts on the toralon in 3.0 My answer is right now. He's still very bad But who cares because in like probably two to three weeks we'll have a new scroll for him and hopefully he'll be really good I'm pulling for the toralon. I want to see him be awesome uh So there you go. I mean we already mentioned total eclipse. It had we we can't talk about it without this Um kairos six mortal wound create a chaos spawn fire Right. Yeah, uh is obviously in this this discussion Uh, I hope the shield of fate up there. I didn't realize how good. Oh, yeah, man Shield of fate is so good again. It's based on the number of destiny dice you have so you do have to be Monitoring that but I also see most of those lists now take a glimpse the future Right, so they can refill their destiny dice pool like they don't actually care what they're rolling Right, they're just using it to restock to keep one going back into the pool every round That way they're always getting the re-roll saves. You just can't go below Four and you lose the re-roll saves. Yeah, I think it's four seven to nine is an extra four up awarding in spells Four to six left like these are cumulative by the way If you have at least four to six you get re-roll saves and then one to three is real ones to save There you go. Thank you. Yep Absolutely Um, I mean you mentioned doc. I think we have to mention mind raiser, right? Like It's an interesting example of one that's probably balanced correctly Because it is on an eight to cast and it's a that's a hard number The army is exactly. Sorry doesn't have supercasters. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, it's it's well balanced in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, you know, we were choking it We've been joking around you and I may have a Moderate difference of opinion about the state of daughters of kane Whereas as someone who's been playing it religiously for a little while here, you know, I took a break with 3.0 Uh, I'm more inclined and biased to see all of the downsides of the army And you know to see how the 15 snake bows and marathi is doing a lot of heavy lifting in my opinion and keeping it up But marathi has a minus one rend right now And you will go games where you will not get that Stupid that spell off to turn that into a minus two rend and the minus two rend on the one attack tail Which often seems to roll one at some point and fail anyway And and yeah, I mean and we've talked about what minus one rend means in the game right now I mean, you know, there's some counter examples to it But yeah, I've had practice games where she goes in and she rolls fine, but they just save And you know, so anyway, like that's probably a side conversation about yeah Sort of the counter balancing factors of daughters of kane right now But yeah, minorizer it's certainly Like unbelievably powerful if it does go off, you know, it like the The differentiation of getting that off versus not it's so impactful on a daughters of kane game. Yep Uh, some other shout outs for me. Um Warp gale slash your dreaded warp gale out of skaven Yeah, um Like I'll talk about dreaded like yes, it casts on a very high number again. Like it's a it's a tough cast Okay, but you can get bonuses like that the person who's casting dreaded warp gale or warp gale Can be pretty reliably at a plus two ish to cast So that makes an eight more achievable And that's a 26 inch range d6 mortal wound in the dreaded version spell That uh, basically completely futzes with their movement Uh in great ways Um, so I really like anything that's a d6 mortals I generally you know like that always stands out right because because you've gotten the chance To kill those utility heroes. Yeah. Yeah, totally Um, I think do we want to just say all teleports? Sure, should we just like literally group all of those into like They're often picked. They're often at the top of the list like all the teleports My daughter's okay and again, you'll see mirror dance and a lot of lists So just it gives you so much utility in the galaxy brain plays of setting up combos that you can do with mirror dance You know like one i'm hoping to get off. Maybe at some point this weekend. I think I told you about cogs I'm taking cogs more potentially for the plus one charge Holy within 18, it's pretty big range. So that's 24 inch setup six setup Holy within 18 from that, you know in a game with a lot of range damage I may have to keep the lifetakers off the board. Uh, I tried it maybe Mirror dance marathi came somewhere on the board Maybe outside of him buying range. She then cast cogs Cogs in a place where lifetakers then come in now. They're at an eight with a plus one, you know For a plus one from cogs. Anyway, like it opens up so many different combos that you can do with mirror dance Yeah, so this is like mirror dance mask of darkness and slaves that various and sundry hands of gork morke Whatever in the orc and goblin stuff Um and and on and on skitter leap enscaven, right? Which is limited to only heroes But obviously you've also got again the dreaded version of the thing coming out of the deceiver Which as we mentioned lets you teleport to within six inches, which is So crazy good, right? Yeah Yeah Early on Caleb, Caleb walters mentioned devolve with piece of chaos. I definitely found that to be a great one Yeah devolve like you know, and I've I've said this since I think the first time we saw this effect in this spell When the first version of this came out, which might have been like the The first sort of incarnation of this. I don't remember timeline wise But I remember one of the first times I sort of recognized its power was actually the corn prespell Yeah, they could do it right or the corn priest prayer. Sorry they could do it. Um But anyways, there's now devolve is a great way to do this It's especially potent in something like zinch who can reliably get it out there when when you know You bring in the brave shaman and then a real caster steals it as it were Right and then does it reliably? Um, but yeah, anytime you're making the enemy move Um You know is is potent, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Yeah, any with seraphon that stand out. I mean obviously there's crow Can we talk a lot about that? Oh, yeah, I mean both of his spells are worth mentioning. They're both good, right? Um, ironically the rest of the seraphon stuff is like that is a by that. I mean their spell lores Right are like Okay That was my general impression. I remember looking at the book originally, but I haven't looked at it in so so long Uh, I think there was stellar tempest That had the we talked early on about the four up You know three up four up potential with the new swamp spell Black pit that I believe stellar tempest is on a five up that they can do that Let's see. Yeah, here we go. Each roll one dies for each model the unit for each five plus and that's got a range of 24 Yeah, so really great range Yeah, cast melee v8 yeah, the um You know their their lore is interesting because it's not bad, but it's also not great It's kind of the way lores should probably be written is by honest answer We're like you've gotten reasonable choices. It's not like you're looking at it going. Oh, there's nothing here I can pick again. It's not slanesh. It's not the lore of the vampires, right? There are some Like real stinker lores in this game where they just managed to basically fail five out of six of them and make them bad You know So but but They're they're fine. Um Again, they're not When held up against something like croaks war scroll spells. You're like, oh geez. Well, you know, sure. Okay Right, that's that's the problem. Like it's the comparison, right? Right. It does feel You know thinking about different spell lowers I would put seraphon up at least in terms of my interpretation what you were saying earlier And the range that you're looking for it. I mean, wouldn't you say they're pretty, you know, fairly reflective of that? Or would you do they feel a little too underwhelming? At least you're I think there I think there's some good stuff in there still like hand of lory's good Like there's stuff in there they can bind and the spells and stuff, which is interesting Like it has some interesting sort of big brain plays again. It's there's stuff Right, right. It's it's not a trash lore that would be vastly overstating it, right? um Blades of pager faction would be another one. I would still put up there. Yeah, you know, still a great spell like Nurgle still has some good options in their spell lore and that's one of them right It's almost funny because I almost feel like what we're coming to here is that There are sort of these almost like category Such as the nature of the post renaissance Mode of thinking that we want to categorize everything. Sure Our ancestors probably didn't think in the same way but post enlightenment. I guess this is what we do now and You know everything has to fit in a box and I mentioned like teleport spells But it occurs to me that we could also just factor in movement spells, right? Yeah, like when you take a battle mage for example out of cities of sigmar The gur battle mage is always the top pick. Oh, yeah all day. Yeah the plus what plus two to run and plus two to charge Yeah, right just a bonus like that's so huge As to what it does statistically to your charge number, right? Right because again charge is another one of those roll 2d6 out of static number and your odds get, you know, not linearly worse right It's a very different progression um And so like anything that's giving you like plus x to movement or plus x to to run and charge Uh, you know all that stuff. It just is generally broadly fantastic, right? Definitely. Yeah What about hallow heart or cities of sigmar in general is the one that stands out? I mean hallow heart has some great spells. It really does. Um They have a They have like a four up mortal wound kickback spell Uh, that's really strong You know, especially if you have like a unit that you know is going to get attacked and that you're okay with sort of putting in the line The sort of classic example that you would use for this would be something like flagellants or Free guild guard or whatever right just win because you just let the enemy kill themselves By attacking you, right? Um, they also have a d6 heal spell Uh in their lore if if you're one's custom out of six with an 18 inches. Yep. Yep Which is like a the difference between a d3 heal spell and a d6 heal spell is pretty massive Um, especially in a city that wants to damage its own casters to get its bonus Right. Yeah Um, so it's you know, it it means a lot um Uh They certainly have some very attractive spells right now Yeah, and again that are especially turned on number one make trees Like that's you can almost like if if it says if the spell like obviously there's the generic But then there's also like some other things that are around there that will either intentionally or incidentally make trees Like a laurels metamorphosis or whatever, right? Yeah, but if it has a writer of create selveneth woods Because of the nature of how selveneth woods are right now. It's so powerful Because it just means like poop poop poop. You just poop trees And and you know It's so hilarious to me how you can just scatter trees all over the board and and suddenly Big base things just can't fight anymore because it's like what what are they doing? Where are they gonna move? That's all the possible stuff. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's my number one issue with it. It's just the imp potential The we haven't mentioned vengeful skull root the endless spell that certainly has more play now for that very reason because you can Put woods out in so many different places, you know individual trees in particular And it can really turn on that spell. There is a potential to double tap it You know, it may or may not happen But that's one of the few Eventual skull root that you can do the d6 mortal wounds if you're within I think an in me within three inches And I believe it's any enemy unit set across this I don't think it's limited to like one in a unit d6 mortal winds I'll have to double check on that. But yeah, that's really good. You mentioned metamorphosis. It's even better now You know, it's on a three up used to be on a four up. It's still got a 16 inch range, but that there's spell portal You know, that's a 34 inch threat range That's that's tough to get away from or potentially longer depending on how you stagger the spell portal out And then yeah, the top meme of at least swarm of sprites is is incredible If you put that to the spell portal and hit a castle, you know Unless you yeah, this is the spell on the new guy by the way the war singer Yeah, war song revenant. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, so nine inch range And so again, I think another great example of why spell portal needs to go away or you know something It would be better for the game if you you couldn't do this to the spell portal But if you do 27 inch threat range or better Yeah, every unit that it touches you roll the casting value And so when I've had so many ways a couple of different ways to stack casting or generally get high casting value now You know throne of vines in particular is the main way You don't move each time you cast it plus two to your cast rolls And then usually you're going to see it in all routes where it's going to be 3d6 pick the highest two And so you can get you know, 13 14. I got a 15 cast when I was testing this out You know, every unit 15 dies five ups mortal winds. It's it gets really bonkers Yeah, yeah The there's it's funny because I don't hate Spells that just do a d3 mortal wounds Okay, like if a spell is doing a d3 mortal wounds In general i'm like Okay That's cool. Like in a lot of armies. I'm pretty happy to just have that And have the ability to snipe some damage around Yeah, um, so I think of like in my tempest eye list Uh, you know, one of my casters has strike of the eagles, which is like a 30 inch range d3 mortal wounds Okay, okay, and I keep it in there because I'm like, yeah, it's super long range Like 30 inches is a is a beautiful range on there right pairs well with like the venator So they can both kind of go in on something right and maybe pick on a a key target Yeah, that's a great range So when we look at other spells that are more That had like the worst on revenant or something like that, right? Right. Um Now again, you've got to be a lot more danger close Yeah to get those off But those when you look at the power of those sort of pbaoes or aoe type spells anything that we would generally attach nato to at the end, right? Yeah um You know, there's there's those are still really really threatening Spells and those are usually the damage ones that sort of make the cut right, right Whenever my comment was early on this sure with 2.0. Yeah Yeah, um, I think we would be remiss I was I kept meaning to mention it and then didn't but when we're talking about specific war scroll spells Um, and uh, this is ben had mentioned in the chat, but this is certainly on my mind too Like and curse out of uh, belladama out of uh, Out of ram all wolf. Yeah, that's a great one is just such an amazing spell You know again d3 mortals with an amazing writer where you turn the dead people into into Uh Dire wolves. Yeah, right. So then suddenly you've turned off their ability to unleash hell You know, there aren't that many spells in the game like that where they kill something and then make a model pop up in their lines Yeah, but all instances of things that do that are ridiculously good Right now, it's mostly wolves and and a chaos spawn, right? But but that's such a powerful ability, right like that is a crazy good spell Um, you know grandma werewolf is she's strong She's strong Yeah, that's a good show. Um, is there any other like War scroll character specific ones That jump out of you. I mean, there's a lot of like generic stuff around there again It's in the middle area that you're like, hey cool to have that Neg one to wound is very popular. Right. There's a lot of like there's a lot of daughters can't get an example of this Right, there's a lot of war scroll spells that are like neg one to wound and okay. It's a good debuff, right? Right, like it's great. It's highly impactful people don't have a button They can just slam usually um unless they're on the triumph to erase your penalty Yeah, so uh, or they're a hero so they can go into their best day ever Um, so like neg one to wound is generally highly valuable so A lot of value out of darkness of the soul with the cathlar when I was testing out lumineath And that that pairs especially well with Voice of the mountains for the minus two bravery in your turn minus one bravery and succeeding turns into your next hero phase And if you got any other ways that you can reduce bravery. Yeah, that can be impactful on turning off units Yeah, generally, you know, it's another great control spell So, yeah, I'm sure that that's less value. You know, there's some others like that but Glorious afflictions. I don't know if that's built into a war scroll. You know, we we talked about mergel I think that's still a great one. That's in that movement control Half smooth characteristic run in charge anything that does that. Yeah, it's still really great Hand of dust hand of dust. Yeah, of course. Yeah It's a classic. Yeah I hate this well You know, we mentioned the dreaded versions obviously that those all sit on the vermin lords scrolls But like dreaded skitter leap dreaded plague dreaded warp gale, right? I mean kind of go down the line And they're all basically good Right dreaded death frenzy on the uh on the the verminus Uh vermin lord, you know, like they did a great job with the vermin lords of giving them like a unique Scary, I mean, it's not I guess it's not unique since it's just a better version of the general lore spell, but It is unique to them. I either the only ones who get the enhanced effect and like all of those feel very Strong good powerful like scary, you know a reason to play that vermin lord Right, which is this kind of thing I mentioned earlier. I like it when a when a when a particularly expensive monster or Uh You know wizard has a cool unique spell on them Sure, right where okay the way to get at that spell is you have to pay 300 400 500 600 points Right to get access to that thing. It's not a thing you can just generically take in the lore Right. Um now, of course, you know, this has a downside We've already mentioned kairos and his very super scary spell But again, imagine if that was just a generic spell Mm-hmm, right and there by the way, there are kind of generic versions that are close to it. We're not exactly the same He has kind of again the most horrible version of it, right Usually it's d6 right as opposed to just like six boom. Yeah, you're dead Yeah, uh, I mean as as anybody who's ever run derpy will tell you the difference between a six and a d6 is a lot Um But you know like I I actually quite like it when again grandma werewolf, right who has the like and curse spell on there I love that. That's a reason you want access to that cool thing. You've got to take her Right, uh raxia says where are my scryer and molder vermin lords at buddy? I agree We all want to see him. I Bothers me to no end that there's no scryer and no mold her vermin lord It's stupid Bad design originally, but that's okay gw. You can make it up fix it put out two new vermin lords um like Uh, if we're talking war scroll specific spells as somebody just mentioned in the comments who was that, um Gumber cleaves cucumber cules. I don't know something Uh, good old glockin man and fleshy abundance the plus one spell plus the wound. Yeah Yeah classic, right Like that's again one of those things that can be so highly impactful if it goes off now again It's on glockin which has always been kind of a shame because he's very rarely been worth his points ever, right? But yeah, it's a great it's a great individual spell We haven't talked about metamorphosis. I think you know, that's one that I've been seeing Get played in my practice games. I've used a few times You know can be situational, but if you've got two monsters in your list, you can pop that off Turn one get fresh advanced get that extra point fresh advanced to give you your three monsters Uh, you can you know, you can do a number of things in terms of playing that with battle tactic play So yeah, and I think it's pretty easy cast valley. It's like a five. Yeah, it's on range of 12. Yeah Again metamorphosis. So this is the gr specific realm spell that turns you into a monster Just so we bring everybody along with us because people might not be familiar but um, you know, it's It's one of those things that works really well If you've got the right hero or or big hero not monster i.e um Gracie you're on a cauldron or an on a cauldron. Sorry on a on a screaming bell or had queen on a cauldron Or steam tank commander, right? By the way, my steam tank commander absolutely brings along his arcane tome every time because like he's he's either mystic shielding himself Or he's gonna metamorphosis himself All right, like if I think he's gonna be able to go in and kill some battle line unit I'm absolutely gonna turn him into a monster. So I get that plus one for broken ranks And know that like on the slapback in the next turn. I can just have my best day ever Yep, right And then give him, you know, plus one to save and like, okay, cool He's probably just gonna survive whenever you throw back at him. No issue and I don't risk that point I don't just giving up that point in the turn where he's a monster So like metamorphosis really combines well with those hero with those hero not monsters that are survival capable So, yeah, uh, do you think okay, so Maybe switching topics. Yeah, sure hit me. What's what's next? So dispel scroll the the ongoing debate about, you know, so the some of the argument for Let's say at you know, we have universal way back We you and I had actually created a list of potential common magic items, which we sideline for various reasons Now we have this universal list of magic items. Yep Flaming or arcane tome, etc. Yep, should a dispel scroll be on that list? No, the the argument for it is That well, I think we've laid out a lot of good arguments for seemingly, you know, there's spell doms There's sort of this you started out that there's this inverted nature I'll think you were more in terms of the power level But I think it's fair to say there's an inverted nature where you have this set of still of You know tom's doms and subs and we have a lot more subs than we do doms They certainly are having a sizable impact. I would say on the game Um, so yeah a a general artifact would would curtail that to some degree. Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure. Would it do it? Tyler would you like a hundred dollars? What are the conditions attached to the hundred dollars? No, I'm gonna give you a hundred dollars. Would you like a hundred dollars? Sure. Okay. Well, I'm going to give a hundred dollars to everybody in the country Okay, is that hundred dollars going to be as impactful to you as it is to to elan musk? No Okay, there's a difference in impact there, right? Distributed in equitously All right, because of the nature of the raw footing the problem with a dispel scroll is that The spell doms get it too, Tyler Sure Okay, and then when they really don't want you cat Like I know everybody wants the dispel scroll because all the people see When they see the dispel scroll is cool. Now my magic sub can shut off the dom at once a game Yeah, maybe unless they're like techless who says like I can't be unbound Right or something like that Right Unless there's somebody who can just easily be outside of your range They just spell range just assuming the scroll would still work within range, right? And so they can just cast outside your range for the things they needed to i.e. through spell portal cheating and so on Right Um, it just it doesn't actually do what you want it to do It makes the magic potent armies More magic potents because now they can completely shut down the subs Not only can they rely on their bonus to carry them most of the time They can just Be sure they've got it on lock the times they don't and my proof of this is why host arc One of the reasons that host arcaneum is so unbelievably good Is because they have a built-in turn one turn three and turn five dispel scroll Yeah, right Like they don't actually usually need that Sure, they're often rolling With big bonuses To shut you down And by the way, if you do cast the spell it only feeds their fate point engine Right, so unless you're actually doing something that's going to be highly impactful to them Right, they they're actually incentivized to just let it go Yeah, right But they absolutely use it to shut down the one thing that's definitely going to be a problem for them Right, and that's all they'll do now. You just gave them two in round one Like now congratulations. Now you'll never get a spell off against each Right Like that's the problem. Okay Yeah, I can see that push back with it Like the the what you're The the the instinct is good Right, the instinct is these spell doms are a problem. We need some way to control them Right So And the spell scroll like it's the it's the sort of I'm not trying to be offensive here to anybody who Want spell scrolls, but it's it's the smoothest brain answer Right. Yeah We don't need like if we're going to redistribute spell dom power right like if we're if I'm treading around the like economic consequences of what I'm saying here, right But like if we're gonna if we're going to redistribute the spell power the answer isn't to just give everybody this tool It's to it's to guillotine the The wealthy Right Like we've got a like we've got to take a hit the people who are the spell doms need that problem fixed Yeah All right, that's the solution at some point. We're gonna have to just Break down and do an economic show. Sure publicly the economics of aos The like the why does a horse cost like 3000? D. Anyways, um, the uh The my my point is that the the it's it's not the proper solution for the problem Okay, and the the second problem is it creates a necessary arms race like I hope you enjoy every list ever having one less magic error Because that's what that would be the immediate second order consequence of that I something with that. Yeah, 100% if we have a dispel scroll as a universal artifact It's going to be everywhere. Great every list you start with that period It's same as the old dispel scroll every list in warhammer 876 whatever was 1975 because you just wrote dispel scroll down on your list and then you started building your army Yeah, right. So no, it's just it's a bad fix. It shouldn't be there auto take stuff Shouldn't be in the game Right, there should always be some kind of choice So is some kind of trade-off, right? And the uh like The the that thing doesn't cross that threshold It becomes auto take instantly and it only empowers the worst the worst actors You make good points. Yeah It's it's certainly as someone pointed out it does at minimum feel like a Band-Aid solution and potentially a very insufficient one at that Yeah, I mean my experience with this was playing stormcast for a year And I would certainly always take at least one night in canter. You would sometimes see multiple night encounters But there's multiple butts that go along with that you know, I have to be Paying whatever I was paying 140 points at the time for that night encounter It wasn't the first artifact that I could take if I could have just simply taken a dispel scroll as my first artifact I may not have been taken that night encounter because that was certainly the main reason that she was in my list Was that dispel scroll? But there's a cost. Yeah And you know 280 points is a fair amount of points to pay at the time for two dispel scrolls One thing I defined is that you know, there were some you did mention the limitation of the 30 inch range So, you know, there was that like I did have to put her in range But you know, we're operating on smaller boards now. So it's it's certainly easier And by the way, that's less problematic because as you mentioned, you're effectively including 140 point unit for the purpose of this thing Exactly. You're not, you know, it's just a much different effect when it's not the magic item Right, right. Yeah, I can see that like as a simple game principle If you told me like, you know in the armies that are spell subs Okay Like this is the proper way to redistribute the wealth as it were, right In the armies that are spell subs that don't have bonuses to cast Or whatever We're going to include more bonuses to unbind But not cast And often include characters that basically get a dispel scroll built in for free once a game Right, I'd be like, yeah, okay, great. Now. I'm back on board. Yeah, right Um, because then you're raising the the floor Yeah, because then all of a sudden the the doms can't get ahold of it and there's real counterplay there Right, right Like I'm just generally against universal fixes to targeted problems. Sure. Yeah, that seems reasonable. Yeah Okay Well, it seemed like something that we had to discuss because yeah, I do think it is a common thoughts That you know, most of us have I've certainly had over the years that you know It's it's very attractive Sure everybody because Yes, it is very attractive to just think What if we all had this thing without realizing that inflation is also a problem? right So who are we had a couple more? How good should magic be and who are the real magic factions? Yeah, absolutely Which order do you want to hit these maybe who are the real magic factions? Who are the real magic factions? Yes, who actually in 3.0 are the magic factions? Yeah, okay zinch obvi slam dunkathon Especially the number of my cogs Like I think they're hands down number one and again, this is not even Archeon, but to me they're number one on the list Yeah, I agree um Yeah, they like I mean again, I'll say it just to be really clear with my opinion for everyone here, uh please Nerf cogs just fix it just fix it. In fact, I haven't said it yet this show Hey, if you're watching right now, uh, and you also want to see cogs nerfed Hit the like button like and subscribe. Uh, I haven't I haven't done any anybody I haven't even asked that the whole show because I've been so focused on other things But hey, if you haven't hit like yet hit that like button if you also would like to see cogs nerfed Uh, so there you go Um, yeah, I mean zinch is right up there at the top right there. They've got to be Near number one if not the number one Or actually this has made a point about you know with the blue scribes that re-rolls to cast So that makes it difficult to even do a miscast. Sure. I didn't think about that. Yeah. Yeah It's the same by the way for all the like, um, when I played soul of light I played beer cogs and I'm like, oh cool miscasts aren't a thing for me Right, right Because I did roll two ones on a single cast sounds like that. No, no issues re-roll good Yeah All right, and obviously I didn't roll two ones twice. It's doable, but it's highly unlikely All right, so Yeah, so number two lumineff Uh, yeah, lumineff would be my next pick. I certainly think they fall into there The fact that you know, everybody in their brother is it is a wizard in the army Right. Um, again cogs goes magically with that army. Um, they have very potent and powerful spells that they want to be using Between turning on all of their mortal wounds and you know on fives and Doubling the speed of a unit and putting up five upward saves and tech nato's teleport teleports and And and and right like Yeah, I mean, there's just they have a lot of good spells Um, and they have a lot of casters And and they have pretty reasonable abilities to buff those casters being either in zytrek or You know with their their Their aether quartz, right? Their pennies. So like, you know, they've just got lots of ways to do that kind of stuff. So yeah, definitely lumineff You know, if I'm them They the lists have still been quite varied Reasonably varied with lumineff lists. I've been seeing so far. You know, we're seeing some fox spam A little bit show up and you're like joe crier. I've seen running and been seeing some competitive folks Running multiple foxes, you know, really leaning into the npe uh Haven't seen lumineff take out tournaments yet That I know of could be wrong on that. I'm sure that some have gone for one You know still seeing some teclas with banari Uh worse, you know, I saw the other day a two by ten stone guard with teclas, which is really interesting In a metrica. I think that was from an event last week or two weekends ago I mean is what would be your sense of what do you think is the most competitive lumineff build right now or if there is one? Oh, gosh, I don't know. I think one of the interesting things that's going on with lumineff is they're actually quite varied Yeah, um, I don't know that there's a single build for them. I think there's probably like four or five interesting competitive builds My my yeah, my problem with lumineff is not that they're overpowered. They are an npe machine Like they do make and manufacture negative play experiences, but I don't think they're an overpowered army um, I generally agree. Yeah, they They're this weird finesse fragile complicated ridiculous thing You've got to cast 12 different spells in exactly the right order on all your different units and you're you know They have this hour-long hero phase like zinge. They're just an awful army to play against, right? I mean don't get me wrong. I like They're cool enough as a force. They're just over designed like they they should they That or that book should have had a second pass where they just Decomplexified it and just put more into the base capabilities of the units basically, right? Yeah It's it's just too much. It's just too much. It seems to have Like I would probably my opinion. It's the most it has the most variance of any faction in terms of Floor particularly in terms of ceiling Like that you good. Yeah, strong players with strong list I suspect could get more out of that faction than any other faction In the game right now And that the the variance is quite wide and in my experience playing Yeah, with with and against lumeneth over the last year And yeah, I was just curious kind of where where you think that is certainly think teclas is still up there in terms of The builds but yeah, yeah Agreed I don't think he's required though. Um, but I think he is really interesting Yeah, I think he'd be a lumeneth with him. I think he'd be a lumeneth without him Which is actually unusual for those god monsters, right? Right? Um Other magic factions, uh, like who who are the real magic factions? I honestly don't know if I put seraphon on that list anymore the the lists that have been doing really well Are mostly thunder lizard stuff. Yeah, I know man. I haven't seen that many lists yet that are really leaning into spells Uh, I mean part of that is croak that because he has more risk, you know to Uh tournament players competitive players and let me go for 150 They may not that may be outside their risk calculus In relation to croak if something weird happens, you know, they run up against a jack ballard and That that story we heard from jack about someone rolling triple sixes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly and just boom boom goes The croaky. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that like I said spike hates randomness, right? So immediately that just turned off a bunch of people um Yeah, I mean I would the other sort of people I would put in the magic realm are probably skaven Skaven have a ton of double casters like everybody in the army and their brothers a double caster They have really potent and powerful spells as we've mentioned across the board whether it be from their lore from the vermin lords from Sorry the lords You know, because more and more work power is technically in a separate lore Um, they you know, they have lots of bonuses to cast that they can spread around whether it be standing near the knoll holes or in their Command traits and magic items, uh, we're just on The model itself like thank well who has his own built in plus two and can easily go to three or four if you're using our game terrain or you know, whatever right like it's so there's You know the the basic grace here can chew warp zone and roll three six you know, there's just Like they're a magic faction. They were they do a lot with magic and can generally Accomplish a decent amount with magic ironically outside like a lot of their other um War scroll spell spells are kind of Okay, they're interesting like um, you know warp lightning is cool because you can multicast it and stuff Now that you tend to have a bunch of warlocks, but you can multicast it It just has a kickback if you overcharge it The arch warlock has a great spell that can do a whole bunch of damage But if you mess it up, he can take he takes d6 times d3 mortal wounds. Yeah It explodes himself, you know, um The the you know, thank well is actually built in spell is Very bad unless you use it very carefully In which case it can be really good But like against a good player who actually is aware of what it is you'll never get to use it But it's interesting. What's does like a three inch range you sum up all of their attack profiles and then roll that many dice and every Five up or something like that is a mortal wound. I don't it's something like that I don't have the scroll right in front of me. So like for example, if you but it's within three inches Okay per model or is it? No, it's one model. Oh one model. Okay, right? So it's like you picked and I think it has to be a hero um But like the point is if you sit thankful like three inches off the line So he's kind of behind so he can do is like spray you down on the charge trick And they bring a hero near him or you or you know, whatever you end up piling towards a hero and then trips to your hero phase or whatever Um, yeah against certain heroes that have like a lot of attacks and a lot of attack profiles They can suddenly do quite a lot of damage to themselves Right So it's but it's really hard to use like I think most people would say it's crap You know the the the gracey or on screaming bell has a truly awful spell in cracks call Where you have to roll 2d6 and beat them the it's a short range And you have to roll like you have to cast the spell Then you pick the unit within range and you have to roll over their move value on 2d6 And you do mortal wounds equal to the amount you beat their move value by Okay problem is there's a lot of very fast units in the game right that move 10 12 14 and it's just like okay well It also can't hurt flying units Because it's like a the ground opening up So I mean, there's just a lot of things that are De facto immune to that spell, you know, right, but anyways, I'm getting too deep down the scaven rabbit hole. Um Yeah, scaven are still a magic faction like I think they fall in there makes a lot of sense, right And so we obviously have I mean the gashes sort of a magic faction unto himself Yeah, sure if he's in like if he's in so blight it very much becomes a magic faction Right Because of what his own magical capabilities are plus the other things you're going to do to support it Like you mentioned nephyspell. We've mentioned, you know belladama spell Right, uh lord the death mages still has some good choices, you know Yeah Overwhelming dread I believe with the minus one is that minus one to hit minus one wood one of those Yeah overwhelming dread is the minus one to hit. Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, and then there's another one It's minus one to attack. That's generally to you take. Yeah, right. Yeah Yeah, and then, you know local tree rep. Obviously I I definitely do think someone has been turned on in terms of magic with, you know, where's Uh, matt davies talked a lot about this. He's been running my friend scott is running the same list that he talked about on rob show Where matt was really leaning into the ranged damage orientation Using the tree revs to pick up objectives where you can kind of playing the long game But, you know, generally we've talked a lot about how with battle tactics, you need to be able to do targeted damage Uh point and click and you can definitely do that with six bows a laryl metamorphosis Unleashed swarm of spies from the war song revenants Cogs vengeful skull root popping out from trees doing these six mortal wounds You know and then in spell portal, of course to check either metamorphosis or the unleashed swarm of sprites So you can do a quiet a bit of ranged damage Potentially with that kind of list Yeah, you know, the yeah, there's I've been running I've been testing out summoner with some combos sort of combined arms list You know where it's like war song rev. It's derthu with minus ruined artifact It's kind of a little a little bit of everything true true lord ancients and but in all routes Yeah, with with the amazing artifact The great match rates it yeah, you can cox it it is as usual with a lot of these things. It's being really powered by cox It's not as abusive as zinchen lumeneth, but yeah The other ones that I would mention are the magic sub factions Where it's not the whole army, but there's a sub faction you can sort of step into to become very magical Hollow heart in cities cabalists and slaves to darkness Yeah, I want to talk about cabalas because we still you know, you were repping cabalists early on Yeah, and dude, I still haven't over the years. I haven't seen much play with cabalas. I thought maybe now in 3.0 We might start seeing some of that. Yeah, I hope we do I think it's just interesting because The challenge with it is all of the slaves to darkness sub factions are interesting. Yeah, right There's not like cabalas is not head and shoulders better than the rest to spoilers really good Host the empty throne really good ravagers really good cabalas really good, right? Like they're all So it's just kind of the flavor of what you want to do, right? And you know to me cabalas is really interesting. I think it works well with bellicor You know so like there's there's I think it's quite potent in the fact that you can pretty easily get plus one to three cast Quite in a quite straightforward fashion In fact, you can play with certain endless spells and get extra value out of them might make some of them actually worth it But yeah, my answer would be if they fix endless spells bring those points in a little bit You might see more cabalas on the on the like damaging spells, right? That's yeah Any others that come to mind? Let's see sub factions. I'm sure we've missed something I mean, yeah, we talk about soul blight not really gets is in a awkward spot. I would say right now They're not a magic faction. They have like yeah, sure. They have what's uh, you know, they have scribe rod or whatever He's a decent enough caster. Like again, there's lots of this mid middle tier decent enough stuff. I really think that's the The the magic stuff, you know, when we talk about magic sub factions, I'm not even sure I'd really count like blood gullet from the ogres in there Um, maybe maybe not. I don't know. Um, but I mean there that's the magic faction of ogres I just think that's the the challenge with that is that's probably Not the right way to build ogres right now You know, it's kind of the challenge. You're sort of locked into some fundamental challenges there um, and that you're relying on on The foot ogres, right, which have their own built-in problems But I don't think it's bad again. I just wouldn't put it up in like the this is the Tippy top thing. I thought like when I play my ogres. I play them as blood gullet ogres. So I mean Yeah I don't know what to tell you. It's the one I like All right, all right, but that's because I don't run, you know, really like monster trucks, right? And we we already mentioned night haunts now that you can get the candles on more than one unit That does make them a little more intriguing than they used to be And yeah, so kind of they got a a little bump at least in the magic game particularly with yeah I I think you know, I think we both think those Terminexes in particular being more intriguing Terminato babies on behind Yeah, I mean as far as the worst magic spells, it's all the people who just have like one Poopy caster with no bonuses, right? Like there's a bunch of people like this and they're around You know, it's just like, oh, here's your average caster with no bonuses. Okay, great, you know, thanks I you know that kind of stuff. I just always find it to be Never just don't take the caster. It's not worth it. It's just not worth it. Yeah, you know This so it's interesting. Yeah, kind of leaning this last question. How powerful should magic be? How good should magic be? I mean, we just went through These factions and we didn't have it might be that long of a list Of you know, these factions that are really playing the magic game So obviously we've talked about zinch, which as you said, they're the magic faction Duh, luminous same thing. That's what they're all that's Largely, you know, especially what they're about Yeah, because we're in the tecly and side of luminous right now, right? Right, exactly. Yeah Uh, what else uh, scaven? Yep, that makes sense. They seem to be in a pretty good spot with like I don't really think of scaven Other than the example of the the nine storm friends, you know, operating out of bounds with what they're doing No, again, scaven are the most fair arm I walked into that one. Good lord. Sorry everybody He got me Also hit like if you agree that scaven are the most fair army in warhammer right now. There you go Or if you don't if you don't you two will know the difference just hit like either way It'll know which one you voted for Yeah But most of these factions raiders came fireslayers idoneth ko Even we said seraphon like croak has a little more of a balancing factor now That's toning him down a lot of you know in this edition. We're seeing more thunder lizard coalesced Not seeing as much of the of the other one the teleporting leading into It's magic. Even if we do it's it's often a lot of skinks Yep, or or sally's, you know, not necessarily magic And so yeah, I I do find that intriguing like after we've talked for that's it Here's use my ultimate summation of it. Magic is in the best place. It's ever been in aos right now Okay That doesn't mean we don't have still road to go though. Sure, right Um, I mean we're we're not anywhere near six dice skills Right the reason that that rob's twitter handle is what it is because that's what you needed to win 8th edition warhammer It was like all through six dice of the thing. Okay, boom there. Yeah, I win the game, right? Right, right Like we don't live in that world All right total eclipse for as offensive as it is you can play around it right you can you could I'll absorb it now in the in the command point rich world. Sure, right um Raxius no he was saying that that's the the non Magic people right the people who either have no magic or or average magic or it's just a matter of magic Yeah, that's yeah, that's the majority. Yeah, that's the majority. I think what we need to do is like Bring in these offensive the the offenders again. I you know, I go back to it like I don't want to say haul out the guillotines and you know eat the rich but um You know, like there's there's just certain Casters that are and and combos that are outside the bounds and they should be reigned in Through either rewriting the war scroll or making the points more expensive or making the spell have more of a cost or or or or or Right, like I'm the user. I have identified the problem It's their job to the ugw's job to identify the solution Right and I can provide you a list of 10 potential solutions and all of them may be possible or may be the wrong answer Mm-hmm Right But that's that's what I would go for Like because if you if you rein in those those problem things Honestly, magic's in a pretty great place The smaller boards mean you're more often it's harder to stay outside to spell range Right, you're more often actually getting that counterplay If bonuses are reigned into where it's not Uh You know crazy bonuses Sure on on several armies Then it's fine. Yeah, then it's a cool interplay back and forth. Maybe I've got plus one or plus two done by no cool I've got my rune lord. He's plus two done by him. He's not a caster like oh, that's a cool thing Right. That's a that's a cool pocket door if you've got there Um, who could be a good answer, you know, so again plus one plus two I'm generally fine with it's when we crawl above that that the that the math gets wonky Yeah, definitely. Yeah Cool, this has made me feel better about the state of magic actually than expected. Hey, there we go. All right Well, all of you out there who are watching. Thank you so much. Apologize for the hotel show this week. Um, believe me I I apologize for the little uh, apparently there was a wine at the beginning Uh, very sorry about that folks. I'm glad somebody said something and we got it fixed Uh, but yeah, don't forget to hit that like subscribe if you haven't already. We'll be back normal show next week I'll be back home. Thank goodness. And uh, as always we appreciate you watching We'll see