 This is just kind of an update on the issues around the Department of Correction workforce because we had some conversation the other day and I think that the two things that even though they aren't in any bills or anything but that we said we would kind of just keep an eye on and keep working around was this issue of Department of Correction workforce and the whole issue of employee parking in the capital complex we did have one session on that with BGS and our capital security and a bunch of other people and they said they were going to come up with some suggestions in a couple weeks so we're scheduling them just for an update next week. So these are two issues that don't have legislation necessarily but that we really want to kind of keep an eye on and so I do not see Steve Howard here, I do see Damien here and you are here just to work with us if we come up with anything and if you need to go someplace else just leave. Okay well I told the committee upstairs that they could have me on threes that you guys would have time with me but I know they they're trying to mark up a bill that is. Who is it? House Commerce. Is it a bill that we much like? It's some non-computing agreements so I don't know if that would be a bill you'd like or not. I don't know but if you feel your time would be better spent up there helping them feel free. Okay. Yeah. I'll check in with the DOC and see where they're at. Okay. We are having members of the DOC next week too. And then so who else is here that wants to weigh in today? I want to hear what their employment practice is. Where are you from? Oh, I'm just here to observe. Okay. Department of Labor. Oh great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was hoping that we would hear some more from the Employees Association about, and one of the things we talked about was how hard it is to recruit and why we can't fill positions and stuff so I talked about yesterday about maybe just talking to us a little bit about that and do we really need to look at different qualifications and what is it that we need to do in order to be able to recruit and retain people for DOC. Do you want to just join us in, and knowing that this is pretty informal. I think that we should just feel that we're, thank you. Thank you. And I'm sure the Department of Labor has some information about why it might be hard and what they can do to work with human resources and corrections and stuff so. Okay. And at the end may we ask other questions of the Workforce Report? Oh, yeah. If we have time. Yeah. Yeah, because I think that, and we were, we were hoping that Commissioner Baker could come and give us kind of an update, but he could not come today. So, but we'd already scheduled everything. It's getting hard to reschedule and unschedule and reschedule. So anyway, so Commissioner would you like to give us some information on that kind of what we talked about yesterday? That would be great. I'm Beth Fastidge, the Commissioner of Human Resources. And I also have our General Counsel, Tom Oldman here, and then our Director of Field Operations, Chris McComple is also here to keep me, make sure I have questions they usually know the answers. So they're there for support. And as you all know, DHR is a support department. So we support all the state government and anything HR. So I like to think of myself as the back operations of state government, back office in there, and I have a lot of extensive business backgrounds. So the things that we do, we do payroll, all payroll, including your payroll. We do employee classification. We do benefits administration and wellness statewide training, labor relations, field services. So our employees are kind of sit within the agencies and departments and provide them what you would think of as typical human resources services and personnel support. And then also employee investigations into misconduct. That's kind of a broad range of the things we do. Also recruitment, statewide recruitment. And as you know, agency of human services is the largest agency in state government. Therefore, they are our biggest customer. I like to think of them as our biggest customer. And the largest single individual department is also the Department of Corrections. With DCF, they're kind of competing for a number of employees, but they're, the two are the right out there, kind of those big departments. And so I thought maybe it would be a good idea to kind of look at it at the macro level and look at the workforce report. And so I do have some copies of some things that I thought we could highlight in the report if you want it. But you also have it because it's so much nicer. Oh, it is. It's so much nicer online. You'll have a link to it. But I think it's that enough, everybody. I have a couple other questions. One for Gail. Thank you. Yes. And so the ones that I pulled up was just kind of look at the size. Look at the size of corrections. And this is alphabetical. It's got, it's, so corrections is kind of down, you know, 10 down, see that total full time equivalent is 977. And if you look kind of down the line, they've got the agency of transportation is there standing along, but that's a whole agency. And then children and families is up there with high number as well. So children and families is the 970 and corrections is the 977. So they're kind of neck and neck for the largest departments. And then if you flip it over, it just is the historical, it just is going to give you those same tables historically. So it's just, you're going to see kind of the change. Yep. I'm going to just ask you. The 977 is the number that they have allotted to them or the number of people actually working on it at this time. Actually, they're on it. This is the year end fiscal 19. So it's as of, this is all June 30th, 2019 data. And it's actual, not actual. Not positions. Okay. Not positions, not budget. That's what they have on staff. So the number of employees and full-time equivalents, which is different if they had a few part-time people. And do we, I mean, just because this is an interesting, as we look at retention and the challenge of recruiting in this department, do you have the number of, that they are actually allotted? That is in the workforce. I think the positions are, the number of positions is probably in the workforce report. I'm not sure that I printed that out. Okay. But that's a different number, correct? It is going to be the number of department of corrections has a significant number of vacancies. Right. Right now, without even the new positions, they have a significant number of vacancies. And that is one of the things that we, that I asked you of. Yes. Any thought about how, why that is, what we do about it? Yeah. Thank you. So in the next time, and then the next one, it's just the department size over the years. The percentage change in number of people from 20, you know, from the past five years. All that information is also available online, the workforce report. And also in our open data on DHR website, it goes back further if you're ever interested in going back. Then you flip it over to table 14, which is the most populous to classify job titles in the fiscal year. And as you can see in the top one is the corrections officer one at 339. And then shortly down below is corrections officer two at 120. So those 459, that, that is actually, you know, corrections officers one or two, once, you know, they're just different levels of, you know, the twos have, you know, bigger job responsibilities and get paid more, but 459 corrections officers. So it's clearly by far the most populous job title in state government. Yeah. So. Does that mean just the biggest number? Yeah. It's just, I'm just trying to give you kind of the scope of corrections. Yep. Yep. So that's out of what it is. And then it's the next one, next page, table 28, hires by department by fiscal year. And that's when you start looking at how many people, they're hiring department of corrections and it's starting to get into that turnover. Yeah. So the number of hires and corrections that they hired in 2019 was 165. And if you look at that, that is by far the highest number. Transportation comes in second at 140. And the 16.8 is a percent of the whole or is it the percent of the retention? It's percent of the whole. Yes. What's 16.8 percent of? Well, I'm looking at that and I've got to figure that out because looking back, I don't see how, I think it's a percentage of the whole. It's a percentage of the whole. It's a percentage of the whole. Yeah, it must be. Yeah. Retention is even higher than that. Yes. So if you look at turnover by fiscal year and the next page it's got some, there's two next two pages are really on turnover. The highlighted in, highlighted in orange is the ones that kind of have a higher turnover than the general state population and then in blue is the lower turnover. Lower level of turnovers. And you can see from the department of corrections traditionally has a higher level of turnover. You know, some departments vary depending on the year and retirements and stuff. But pretty much as you can see a high level of turnover building and building and building over the past five years. Yeah, the past four years. Yeah. It's far unconsiderable. Yeah. So this just gives you kind of an idea. You also look at places like 20 other 24 hour facilities like the department of mental health. They have the Vermont psychiatric care hospital. They've got a pretty high turnover. Vermont veterans home I'm guessing pretty high turnover, especially in the shorts of nursing. So you can look at that. Well, actually it's gone down with the veterans home. Yeah. It's only gone up in mental health 2%. Yeah. So I would say, you know, we were much more serious. This is beginning to identify the problem. Yeah. And then if you look at, we've got the, this is just for 2019 this interesting chart just geographically depicted kind of which departments in general have high turnover rates. And I have corrections right up there. And you see some of the smaller departments up there might be like public service and lottery commission. Those are likely more, you know, those are small departments. So it just, it fluctuates a lot more. But when you see veterans home corrections up there, it's expected, but it's kind of good to see it. Geographically depicted, I think. I think it's helpful. And then I also, the next one, the next page is on table 36. It's just turnover rates by classified job titles. So you look at the corrections officer one, it's 32.5%. Some of those are, I believe, going into the correction officer 2 position. But, you know, and the correction officer 2 position, those are the more experienced and, you know, they don't have as high turnover rate. Mental health specialist isn't doing much. I mean, it's worse. Yeah. So questions isn't the only problem. It isn't the only department where we struggle with turnover. And then, wow. Table 39 is another turnover line where it looks at. It talks about where the turnover comes from, which is a little kind of breaking it down a little bit more. And when you look at corrections, voluntary terminations are 13.3%. Involuntary is a 1.1 for total turnover. That's when you get the 18.6%. Then you also look at employee movement. That's moving from one department into another. So if a correction employee moves to another department, it's going to be, it's still movement, but it's not, we're still retaining that person in state government. So the investment that we've made is still, you know, stays there. So we just wanted to look at that in that event. So we've got a total department outflow there. So when you look at like, so let's look at the agency of administration. The total turnover is a little up top there, but employee movement is 16%. So people are moving for a total outflow of 24%, but a lot of those people that are in the agency of administration may move to another place in state government. So if you look at like the department financing management tax, there's opportunities for those folks in other departments in state government working in finance in those organizations. So you're going to see some crossover there. So it's not always necessarily a bad thing. Then this is kind of the final, one of the final indicators. It's just, oh yeah. It's interesting that the highest turnover in corrections is voluntary. That says something that they're, and it's much higher than any place else in the voluntary turnover, except for number of helpers up there. I've also noticed on a couple of these, the secretary of state's offices, particularly, why would, I don't understand why you don't, I don't know. I know that. We stole an employee from the secretary of state's office a couple years ago, but then she was an attorney and she was in our firm for a year and she was fantastic, but then she moved to Colorado. So we stole a lot of them. It's a small department as well, so that is that way. So one or two affect the average? They can affect the average, but you may want to talk to the secretary on what's about management stuff. I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Beth, do you include in voluntary, well, you have retired. Yes. But that's pretty low. So if they were voluntarily sort of choosing to retire early with them. That would be, that would, if they're eligible for retirement, retirement benefits. They'd show up in retirement. But if, you know, if you worked there for five years and you're invested, that doesn't, and it's not going to count as a retirement, someone who would be leaving with some type of a retirement benefit. So this is voluntary and not staying in state government? Yes. Right. Equally. See ya. Well, but once you're in the state employees system, you know, you, well, you can't retire until you're eligible to retire. No, that's not what I meant. I mean, what I mean is you're walking away from all of that. If you're not going elsewhere. Well, I think that's one thing that I look at. That's our retirement system. It really encourages longevity. Yes. But that's not, that's not what many younger people are looking for when they're starting a new job. They're looking for something else. I'm not thinking about that benefit. So once you've been in for a while, I think I have this many years and I got to stay, you know, if I stay five more, I can get for retirement and that's really great. But that's not something that's really going to keep the newer, younger worker there. It's not enough of an incentive. It may not be enough, but I have two. I have a 30-year-old and I have a 26-year-old. And both of them are really proud of their retirement benefits that they have and speak about them, which is a stunts name. Some of us are well, well past our retirement age and we never did anything that earned us positively about it. And it's a wobble society. People will fall down. Yeah, I never thought I'd get old. Well, we're also working really hard with the treasurer's office to really promote not just talking about the defined benefits and defined contribution plans, but also to talk about savings and the 457B plan and the benefits of that. So we've been working really hard. We have a lot of... There's always an update in the DHR Monthly newsletter, the HR Connect newsletter that goes out that encourages people to participate in retirement seminars or savings seminars, and we also have in our employee wellness incentive program, like people will get points for participating in a retirement seminar doing a activity that is related to financial well-being. And our employee assistance program also does a financial consulting too. So there are a lot of resources and I think that one of the important things to do as a leader is to really educate newer employees and educate employees about saving for retirement and the importance of it and being financially, financially, you know, financially, those things financially. So, yeah. And then, beyond turnover, cash over time by departments. I've got the, you know, the four year, four or five years, and then I have also the change in fiscal year. So you'll get there and the corrections that can highlight there. They do have the highest dollar amount over time. Oh. Just think of how many employees we could hire for that. Of all state, of all state agencies and departments. And the change has increased this year by 20%. So if you look at the, just in the next one is kind of a little, another one of the pictorial graph points of change. Can I just ask a question? What's the, I mean, it's an overtime. Overtime, what's cash overtime? Versus, what other overtime are there? You can, I say you work extra hours, you can also get comp time for those. Oh, okay. So if you're going to put those for comp time, say you're also a newer employee that doesn't have a lot of vacation, you just like to take a lot of time off, you can put those towards comp. In corrections, they, I think a lot of it gets, most of it probably gets paid off by, they didn't take the comp overtime there, but comp overtime is not their big thing. I mean, they're getting a lot of cash overtime, because it's hard for them to take time off. I was going to say, in the department where you're so short-staffed, it's hard to take comp overtime because somebody, I'm not sure, I don't even know, I don't even know Mr. Howard knows, but I'm not sure of the corrections contract, how much cash or if the default, I think the default for them is cash overtime. They may have the ask for a little comp of time. So, the other thing that would be interesting to know is what percent of the corrections of the 977 or whatever that number was at the beginning, what percent are doing, are using overtime? I mean, what percent of the 977 are of the employees? Yes. Well, I would say at least 459 of them, corrections office better than the facilities are probably all having to have to use it over time if they're So, over 400 of the 977? Yes. So, I mean, any of those, I mean, they have the inventory overtime in the facilities so they're all working from what I understand a lot of overtime. Yes. The images of these people sleeping in the parking lot because only four hours between shifts is a little startling. And then the next three pages are just all key metrics by department, wage, mail, email, my garden percentage. So, those are just all there and I just thought those would be kind of good tools. But, this is, of course, my annual plug for all the information in the work force report. You have a link to it. So, if you have questions on that or if you want more data, we love to work on that. We love to present that. It's one of the best reports in the state government, I think, because it really is. So, what data in it are you most proud of? What data am I the most proud of? Yeah. As the director, you know, as the HR director for the state, what data are you most proud of? What data am I most proud of? I want to point out, actually, something that I'm not saying that I'm proud of or not proud of. It's, looking on, I didn't print this out. It's on, on the table, so if you do have an iPad that I could show you, but this year in 2019, not iPad, we have the highest number of level of employee turnover that we've had since 2016, 17 when we had the retirement incentive, but without that retirement incentive, which we didn't have. It's right up there. So, this, right now where we are, that employee by retirements primarily and it's you know as the baby boomers age and as people are aging we are continue to see that retirements grow and with you know not too many people entering the workforce the workforce challenges that we're seeing the state government are reflective of you know the overall workforce so I just think that that's a very or typical 31 it's page 43 maybe 37 well it's page 37 here but in online on this table you said table 31 31 yeah it's on page mine says yeah on the PDF it's you're both right your age you're right you're both right isn't it nice I love it when I share that right so so I just thought that that that graph is very telling to me about just the kind of characteristics of the workforce it's not it's kind of it is what it is it's not I'm just I just think that it's a very interesting to statistic and for our human resources when we think about how we're going to staff and what we're going to do going forward just the whole state government not specific corrections but what what things can we to do to to track employees our workforce what are the what are the things that drive people is it the infants in the workplace program is that helping is that you know what other things do people want we have you know we do have work at home program are people taking advantage of that or what they're pointing authorities encouraging that of course they think you know I want everybody here on my desk so and is that a reason why somebody moves from one department to that oh if I work in that department I can work at home two days a week and that works better for me I don't have to you don't have to waste gas on the commute I don't have to waste time I don't have to better for the environment I don't think wait to stay my job is whatever whatever makes people excited about working so are there tables here that reflect those accomplishments but programs and benefits and opportunities you put in place that's not really that's not in the workforce report that's more in our budgetary report a lot of that stuff and where is employee satisfaction that you do an employee engagement survey that's not that's different than and that's available online I didn't bring that today but it talks up one of the things we did this year with that as we did an overall engagement score so that talked about kind of different levels of employee engagement and one of the things that we really found is because state governments really about serving the public some of those people that are really in very high mission oriented departments you can tell by the engagement score that they just love their jobs and they love what they do and they're very interested in you know their niche whatever that is and so that's one of the benefits we have in state government is we are serving the public so it is service and it's drives people mission driven they want to come work for they may want to come work for state of Vermont so that's one of things we kind of promote on our website about in our recruitment website is kind of the mission and what's the mission and how you're how you're serving Vermonters and that's very that can be very attractive to young people and especially in jobs like that are some of the science jobs that they have like the state geologist or something you know if you're you can be the whatever it is you know the only safe right exactly so just going back then to just the whole corrections thing well what do we do about the turnover and I mean clearly there's some issues there we know that it's a probably a horrible job and I mean not a horrible job a really hard job a really hard job with a lot of pressures and what are you coming back Steve yes okay really want us to have a conversation about what kinds of things can can we do do we why have why haven't we been able to fill those positions that they're already approved to fill and the first thing they've done is they now have just created two new positions which are full-time recruiters which are working with the Department of Human Resources recruiters and how to recruit differently and how to have just better best recruitment practices so those are two new jobs within corrections that they have created in the past it's been works for a while the two people are just on board so our team we have two full-time recruiters in Department of Human Resources and those are you would think we would have had those for a long time but that's actually very new for the Department of Human Resources to actually have actual professional recruiters that are helping departments you know write the job so that they're attractive how do you how do you interview what's the onboarding process so really guiding managers on through that hiring process rather than in the past we really were focused on entering the job into the system it was moral just about the process and the system going forward it really wasn't about how to recruit the best people and where to recruit the best people so between our new online recruitment software as well as having the recruiters and changing the world we've done recruitment we've seen a lot of changes from departments and the I think the feedback from departments is about how helpful that is so we're helping bring that model to corrections where it was more you know it might not be helpful to just go to sit at a table at a job there that's just not how you're going to recruit people I don't know so it's it's how do you make how do you promote that through smoke social media how do you how do you talk to people where should be going on talking to people so part you could relate to one of the things that was mentioned in here is that there are fewer applicants per job availability in the number of applicants that's going down part that relates to lower employment there's not saying there's a lot of good jobs around but just in general yeah there are fewer people looking for jobs so if this is a particularly difficult job you're going to see fewer people exactly and if people are you know in that and if people are leaving because there's other opportunities for them or maybe they didn't have one because you know what we do is we train the people pray the people to be the corrections officers you can't normally go to school to be a corrections officer there's not a degree so it's really needs to be on the job training so you know if you have the aptitude and and the desire we can train you to do that but there's a lot of jobs like that so there's a bit there's a lot of people elsewhere too so I think we have maybe a couple different things we have first of all what are the qualifications that we need for the jobs and then how do you recruit for those jobs and then once you've recruited how do you retain those jobs because you can make a recruitment sound really wonderful and then you get there and you say oh my god I've got away 32 hours today I mean so we need to figure out then what what are the qualifications that you need to have to be in these positions because maybe we have that wrong and then recruiting them and then how do you retain them once you have people there because we can see by the turnover that we aren't doing a very good job of retaining and I don't know where we go with that what I really like to do is just kind of have a conversation and get the SEA in on this and Department of Labor and just just have this conversation so that we can figure this out because in issues like this this is my personal bias coming out here but in issues like this it seems to me that we don't ever get really where we want to go when we have somebody testifying and then somebody else testifying and then somebody else testifying and instead having a general conversation about about where we go and what the issues are so I think right I think it would be great to have a dialogue because I think all these things lead to leadership you have all these problems when you have poor leadership so if leadership is not strong in corrections you're going to end up with exactly where we are it's culture and leadership as I have listened in the last month and a half on this issue culture and leadership if you're recruiting from the National Guard and there's a poor culture there that's being passed on to the poor culture and creating and fostering more poor culture culture and leadership so I think I'd love that all three of you address culture and leadership and how we change it and I think Jim Baker is all too it sounds like a productive start but he's not staying with us beyond April so that's heartbreaking because he's done such a great job in so many places in state government and I am good I am going to say though that I think that it's it's more than just leadership because I think and I may be wrong here but I I thought Andy Polito was making some good moves I think Mike Touche was moving no okay I this is from my experience in judiciary and working on corrections issues and and they didn't there's more than you have to have good leadership but you also have to have the right conditions so that that leader because if you if you you could have the best leader in the world but if you don't have the people in the positions where they should be and you and you're I mean the leadership isn't they're still going to have to work overtime we need they need to have we need to make we may need to make some real systemic changes and that isn't and and the part of that is the the funding part of it is how we the so it isn't I just wanted to go on record saying that I think that it isn't it isn't that we have had really bad leadership I think we've had we've had people who in different positions that may not have been in the best position they could have been but I I will go the record saying I think that Mike Touche was making some really really important changes with the corrections and and and there's an inmate population and then there's the employee population and you have to make the changes with both of those so I yes I tend to agree I think there are certain occupations that if you're miscast as an employee you immediately have a situation so that speaks to a recruiting issue where you almost have to line people up so that they know what to expect in the job and some people just would not be comfortable or particularly affected in that job I mean I take officiating as a poor example but if you can't take getting yelled at then don't put the shirt on it it's really sometimes that simple and we have we have made changes in our correction system over the years so that we now have the same I think issue in corrections that we have in our psychiatric hospitals the acuity level of the people who are there is much higher it is a much more demanding job than it has ever been because the people who we have reduced our prison population from where it would have been if we had fallen the same trajectory it would have been 2700 we're now at 1700 so those thousand people aren't saying no that's our incarcerated population that's our incarcerated by our 200 ever say yes that's our incarcerated population and and the Department of Corrections works with with the people out of state as well so that they're part of our population but so so the people that are there now are a much different group of people for the the corrections officers that are that are working in the prisons and we have to acknowledge that and maybe change the way we think about who corrections officers are and how we deal with them it's a very different population now I think it's a complex problem it is and I I think it's going to take a totally systemic systemic change to and I agree I think you can have a good leader with a lousy culture and that undermines leadership on the other hand great leadership tends to over time write all those challenges and I one of our challenges in corrections is we have not had consistent leadership for a long stretch of time it's a tough job and people burn out we you know people move on we have not been able to keep our our heads of corrections and I don't know what the turnover rate is for the heads of each prison itself you know for the leadership per prison but I you know it would be interesting to see what those are I think it's a tough tough job but I think it all works together but I think I'm the daughter of management I you know so I actually do believe most things come from the vision and the leadership at the top and that is but it is clearly a systemic change we have to make in corrections to to serve Vermont Vermonters so what are those corrections so we need those changes yeah we need to make I think that that's right so do we have the right qualifications for the right people I mean our have the job changed enough that we're still using a qualifications and a definition of the job from 1970 do we need to change that do we need to look at how we reimburse corrections officers mainly you're talking about the corrections officers I think in the prisons right where the biggest problem is not in the field staff is that right Steve well there's two different fronts just identify your truck Steve Howard executive director of the FDA there is a type of culture in general right there is one thing you'll see in the it's very clear in the DHR and engagements serving this is a massive disconnect between central office and facilities and to do not exist in the same and there's a lot of resentment by frontline workers of central office central office meaning the commissioners office yeah yeah but there's it's not I mean there's a lot of people in central office right there's all of the issues that are happening in the facilities some of the issues you've talked about there is a feeling of our members I think that one positive thing the legislature could do is review every single example person who works in central office figure out where they came from how they got there and what they do because that's a mystery to a lot of people in the what they do is sometimes a mystery a lot of people in the field and how they got there is there often superintendents who needed to be moved so for instance Jennifer Spratsky is no superintendents mentioned seven days article and started stuff they were the superintendents who presided over this facility during that time period they both work in central office so our members say well I'm on TRP I'm in trouble why did management keep moving people around why they keep landing in central office so that's part of it and then there's the idea I think that the open the vacancies come from for some people it's not the right job but the standards used to the hiring standards used to contest to be a correctional officer you don't take a test anymore and I remember I asked my tuchette Mr. Tuchette where he was gonna fill those three positions first that you proved last year and he said anywhere I can find someone and he wasn't lying he was being honest that's not how you want to do it so the overtime is the biggest driver of the reason you believe the life the life work balance that the difficulty of being exhausted and having the most difficult offenders you've ever had most violent offenders you've ever had to supervise but then there's all these other things that come down they are gonna see it from central office some of it comes from the legislature to central office we're asking too much from the system as it exists today they don't have the resources to do what the legislation wants and part of that you saw in the Justice Reinvestment Report corrections has been level funded for many many years and that really essentially ends up because costs keep going up so we are in a mess because of that it's it's it's gonna cost more to get the correction system the legislature wants and it's not just that we have to pay people more money and we have to do things like provide child care because they are ordered over all the time and they're gonna leave to enter kid today the school closes you can't tell a mother or father a single mother father or any parent their kids gonna sit in a snowstorm somewhere because they can't find somebody to pick the kid up our members are disciplined when they do that they refuse to work so we've got it if we want the correction system that the legislature wants it's gonna cost more money but you have to be more specific for me anyway I don't know about anybody else you have to be more specific because we're asking too much and it's been level funded and that is true and the number of people in beds has gone down so you don't want to fund you don't want to fund it at if we have 1700 people now and Justice Reinvestment is in this very first round they're looking at decreasing the number of beds 106 to 135 so you don't want to you don't want to budget for 1700 if you're going to have 1550 I mean so you have to so you have to be more specific about what the changes are for me anyway I don't know about anybody else in here but you have to be more specific about what the what the what we're asking too much of the system what what is it is it that we don't have the proper space we don't have the proper programming what what is it exactly huh yeah the medley assisted treatment program yes if it has been from our members perspective a complete failure and disaster which treatment program badly assisted treatment and partly because they were not consulted in how to implement or whether it should be how discussions never included them and yet they're the ones who have to stand there for three hours while people go through the med lines and they're the ones that have to be there at three in the morning and work overtime for a program that has left them without any there's positions in the correctional facilities called floats who are they are doing basically relieve people at different posts and most important thing for our members that float up they come and react they come and help when there's an emergency when there's when there's an attempt by by inmates to overtake them for instance floats would come in and help the force the floats are on the bed line so they're not getting break so that that's a good example of a program that I think was well-intentioned but because we don't staff resources to do it we have created an atmosphere in which people don't want to work in the department so how would you have changed the MAT program I would start it very small like with very sure first of all I would have I think Colonel Baker said this morning said at the panel last night there was a panel last night yeah which I emailed Dan and said it's a great panel you have nobody on that panel who's ever worked in a Vermont correctional facility it was the fourth and that's the problem we are talking about corrections reform we're talking about all these things without talking about the people who actually are doing the work we're talking to people up here from Ohio and New York and wherever but not from the people who have good work every day in those facilities and what you hear is completely the world are completely different right so go back to MAT how would so I think the way the commissioner started it mission of an hour it started it was was maybe the best way to start it very small last six months of your sentence if you were going to your you were prepared to go back out into the world and then you could have expanded it as you addressed the staffing crisis as you got people as you filled the positions and you kept people there for longer than six months or two years you actually got the overtime rates down then you expand that program and I think we were asking too much of the corrections system with the staffing levels we had to actually be able to implement that program and so somebody had to do I think one thing that makes our members upset isn't and I try to tell them the commissioner did try to tell the legislature now and it's hard to tell the legislature now but it was not programmed let's the corrections department at that time or now can do it seems like you're never going to be able to do new programs or creative programs or systemic change in the programs if you don't have the people to do the work it doesn't make any sense you're just going to keep moving people around and something that may be really nice to do may ultimately be good it's going to fail because people are doing whatever are burnt down yeah I also think there's a so there's that feeling of not being listened to people not understanding what the real world is like and then there's the sense with this population that's very difficult to manage that they don't have the tools to maintain order so that goes to training no it goes to and resources well it's that training is resources it's knowing that if you make a decision to use force the management is going to support you and if you need to send someone to segregation which is the tool that our members feel is very effective you're going to be permitted to do that excuse me one second I have a little trouble with my throat so do you need to come back? no I'll be right back but I think I'll let me just go I'll come right back department of corrections budget is what was presented in the governor's budget I have no idea it's over 200 billion right diamond I think I remember when I came here in 2005 89 just when he talks about level funding it is growing like topsy that budget that budget has grown faster than any other budget I've watched in state government so while we're waiting for Steve I can just talk about a few other things that that we're trying to do to assist corrections and some things that tools that we have that we haven't had as much in the past the new in the past probably three years they got a learning management system that was a lot online system that contract employee training you can upload online courses we just bought online a whole suite of online learning software that's available all state employees so one good thing about that is I mean people still need to do on the job in classroom training but if you want to push out a new training like okay everyone's going to look at this sexual harassment prevention training refresher you can push that out and assign it to everybody and they can all do it in a month and everyone can get it done so I think that's something that just having that system and having the broad course content which is more generic in nature but it has it has those things that they can assign in a place can do you know so employees can do that so that's just a positive thing that I think is can help it's not gonna it's not a certainly it's just a little bit of something I can help the culture but it's a tool that's provided that's available now so of course Steve is sorry so I just wanted to say something about the MAT program and how can I just say one thing quick I eat something that I'm clearly allergic to my throat closes up so I may keep running back in and out fine right now well that's very silly of you I don't know what I ate but my throat is closing so when it happens I'll leave but don't go to the bathroom and pass it off thank you for that so the medical thing is right behind me there that white thing that happens every once in a while so the I think that some of the problem is the lack of clearly communicated goals that might come from the legislature to the administration and to the employees my understanding of the MAT program was that if you are on an MAT when you're in the community and you're arrested we will continue that when you come into the system because you don't want to stop people right away so when so then by implementing it so that it didn't happen that way it was the last six months of your stay you got to do that to prepare you to go back then all these people are saying well wait a minute I I deserved to have it too because I was having it in the community before or I needed now and it just blossomed so over half the population now I believe is on the MAT program if you don't want to get sent to Mississippi you find a way to get on the MAT program right well and we have we have we have inmates who are sentenced to have life sentences who weren't on they've been in jail for five or six years they were clean and now on the MAT program they they didn't have a problem and now they have they have a drug that's been provided to them by the state they didn't need it but they don't have to answer the questions so they wouldn't be sent to Mississippi and that's the kind of stuff that I think that a correctional officer will know that somebody in central office may not know somebody in state house may not know that somebody from Newark Ohio where whoever's on the panel may not know but somebody who's in front of an offender every single day they will know and no matter why people are doing what they're doing and the things they're seeing are in the prisons related to the MAT program they are disturbing to them yeah so I think we have to refix some of that stuff and say okay we have a staffing crisis we can't fill these positions in some ways I do what Senator Carson said is right a lot of it is leadership and I think you'll see one thing I will look at I haven't looked at this because there's exempt employees but I will look at the turnover in the superintendents that's quite rapid in many places and we have some of the biggest problems Springfield it's just there yesterday yeah remember the bunch of our members who are they are just they've had and that's the position that that facility has the highest amount of overtime turnover in superintendents is like it's a revolving floor and why is that well it is one of the toughest prisons it's where some of the more typical offenders are found but I think the department's very political and it's hard to it's hard to maneuver so it's not just the culture in the facilities it's the management culture and it's got to be looked at well that sets the vision and the tone and the value I'm sorry good leader sets all those things it's it's that you know our members are willing to do what they were not resistant to change so the department testified last year in the house that one of the problems in the M&E program was just philosophically our members the ESC members didn't agree with it that's not true I mean there are some members who don't agree with the philosophically but it was it was an example of you're asking us to do something we don't have the resources to do and you didn't bother to even ask us what we thought about it one general minute and I think that's part of the problem so it's the management culture went to central office doing it who are all those people up there and why do they not seem to understand what's happening up here and then it's also added added stress that you I think point to Madam Chair the most difficult offenders we've ever had at the same time without without all of the tools you need to maintain order and I think I there is it's clearly there's a role for social work in a facility and in the field probation parole officers the case managers that help people plan free entry they do serve a role as social workers but and our members will are willing to be trained to do whatever you want them to do but the number one priority for correctional officers to maintain the safety and security of that facility and if they don't either they're going to get hurt or get killed or other inmates are going to hurt and get killed and so they can't do that and social work at the same time you're going to have to supple you're going to have to supplement that with another group of case managers more social workers if you want to but you need to have people maintaining safety and security because that is their first priority so so we need to have doing are the qualifications the right qualifications so we have four corrections officer is the training the appropriate training and and and I hear you saying that we if a correction officer decides to use force or seclusion or whatever it is that that's that's the decision and they should be backed up but there also has to be some accounting for why they did it I don't think that you can just say if a correction officer uses force so be it that's the way it is you have to have some oversight of that so there has to be some looking at it because otherwise I mean because and I'm not saying that our corrections officers are bad but there can be some rogue people out there and we need to make sure that those decisions are the right decisions so how do we how do we balance that I think that training and DS will be yes our members would say that they especially the more seasoned ones those the more experienced ones you know they are they want things to be done the right way they want things to be implemented the way they should be implemented and and they will work with younger correctional officers to help them get and the training I think is really important and it's a lot of complicated training I don't know if anyone's ever looked at PREA but PREA is like Prison Rape Elimination Act is one example of it is a ton of training and it has a ton of requirements and then you've got all you know you've got a lot of other stuff on top of it they don't they don't want things done and properly even with the use of force but if if in their professional judgment they need to do that or they need tools like seclusion to maintain order they want the management to support them and to say yeah you're the guys on the front line and you the ones that know what we are at Berks and we're going to support that I think that's important but I also think there needs to be a check on that because you can't just have people so there has to be some I mean we see the same thing in the mental health yeah I think members would agree if you have a chair they do think there should be everything should be within reason but they what we have a commissioner of labor management meeting and it's just the conversation back and forth you know when the season folks there's two things I remember from this meeting there was two or three people there who were 25 year 30 year veterans department corrections and they were talking about what they thought needed to be happening needed to happen in the facilities and the commissioner said well that's not what the research shows and I said to him afterwards do you realize how insulting that is to somebody who's worked in the prison for 30 years that you think a professor in Ohio knows more about it than he does and he left that meeting to flake and think I've been working here for 30 years and they're not listening and you're not listening you're saying this person in Ohio who's in a very nice professor you know research lab is telling you that telling is having more influence on you as the commissioner than I am and I've been standing in front of offenders for 30 years so that's one thing and then the other thing in that same meeting members are told we need to use incentives can't use anything that's there's no there should be no stick it should be all care and our members who work in these facilities said it that does not work that is not a successful strategy and we're telling you that well that's what the research shows and I think we've gotten too much care of not enough stick and but it does have to be a balance I think that's those are the two things I remember from that meeting I felt so bad for that guy because I thought oh my god and I don't think the commissioner meant to do that but that was the effect saying you know 30 years of this doesn't matter and this person in Ohio knows one thing you're doing I think that's an example of how people feel and why they don't want to work there well it it also sounds like what I hear you saying is that we need to recruit I mean if leadership is one of our big challenges and the perpetuation of a non-healthy culture which is sounds like it's sadly embedded in this department it sounds like maybe we need to do some recruiting of leadership from out of central office from outside from outside I mean we need it sounds like we need you know it sounds like we need hopefully a new commissioner who will be outside our system and come into it sort of the way Jim Baker has with fresh eyes new eyes no preconceived you know really ready to take on the whole system and work with HR to redesign it because you know there must be there must be successful prisons around the world not necessarily in the United States but around the world that we can look to that will provide us with much better models on how to do this better this is not rocket science this is you know we have you know one of the things I was just a simple thing but well a major thing that we traded a good road up to the Springfield prison for a workforce development training building is heartbreaking we have all those people there now that are not learning any new skills there's no workforce development CTE center which that was supposed to be at that facility they spent all the money on engineering that damn road well you know that we don't have that we aren't before we have you know one of the things I see is we desperately also need them to feel like they're learning new skills developing skills being able to you're talking about the prisoners you're not talking about the employees that's true I am there's there's two but there really are two sets of people here that you're serving but there are two parts of the culture and one part needs to feel like they're actually progressing towards lives being corrected yes but sometimes I think those two are at odds because because we can put lots of programming in place for the prisoners and if we don't put if we don't well we need to find leadership for the for I mean we need to have we need the employees to be in a culture that they feel is safe and respected because it says if we have wonderful programs for get ready to push the button yeah so anyway Brian well I'm sorry left yeah I know but he might agree and I don't want to take issue necessarily but just suggest there's an alternative method and I've seen this work backwards when you bring someone from the outside there are certain advantages certain benefits that you get and you mentioned fresh eyes but there's also the theory that when you promote from within you get and to Steve's point if the front-line folks feel they're not being listened to or supported what better way than to take someone that's there and put them off and have them absolutely that's maybe another way I actually heard his comment not the issue of recruiting from central office into the into those positions but the backward taking superintendents who had been disciplined and who were a problem and putting them into central office so that was the that is so Chris did you have a question or are you just totally your thumb was waiting for my turn the thing I was thinking about was what we just went through with guard and the new yeah as general where they had a real challenge to address and sort of a culture change and I'm just looking at that as maybe a mile that we want to consider what we what happened the last four years there and because it seems as though that they're on the right track anyway they are the main differences of the people that are in the guard that they're talking about are there because they want to be there that people who are incarcerated are not there because they want to be there so and they're they're confined in this space so that some of the leadership issues can be the same but I think it's not the employees not the like I'm talking about employees and leadership and you know like where did the new agent come from what was his relationship to the people that he's now in charge of managing so to he was yeah he was there for him about things but he was yeah yeah yeah and he came and he's improving the culture I mean that's clearly beginning to effect got that whole all that stuff message from the countdown so now if I could ask Steve a question and take all this other stuff that we've been talking about the lack of feeling supported and the leadership challenges but over time still seems to be a big issue for masses day to day god I gotta get up to this again if we could find the 30 people that we had talked about at one point does that is that enough to relieve a system-wide overload in terms of overtime I mean how many people do we need I heard the other day I'm not sure what the current number is the chemistry has somebody told me somebody who works in there in the corrections told me there are 68 vacant positions in our actions right now and that's before the 15 positions so there's going to be a budget adjustment it's going to be 15 positions from last year um add it to that number well and we've given them 30 in the budget FY 20 so the administration administration asked for another year to fill those positions and the I think the deal that's been strong between the two appropriations committees is they'll do 15 this year but the the commissioner can't sweep those positions so why can't we fill them do we need to have different qualifications do we need to have different recruitment which Beth was talking about do we need to have why can't we fill those positions I think it's a variety of reasons all of what you're talking about the biggest thing that I will tell you that I think does hurt and I heard this just yesterday and I've heard it over and over again for people who've been there all the time is that current employees will tell new potential employees not to not to do it well that's kind of biting off their nose despite their face well they'll do it they'll just be quite honest with them and they'll say you have a family you'll never see your kids you'll be asked to work on godly amounts of overtime no one's going to listen to you and you're gonna you're gonna be in a pressure cooker with very violent offenders so that's the biggest problem if you want to fix your room and you have to create an atmosphere of people who work there we'll say this is a great place to work right and you can make a career of this and I understand what you're saying it's like a cycle you're not going to do that because you have more employees because they're still going to have to work the overtime until you have more employees it's absolutely true but I think in good conscience if somebody asks them what you answer honestly like how do you feel about them they'll say if you want to stay married and if you want to see your kids this is not the job for you so and many look at the national statistics that the federal government just did and I'm looking for this actual data just did a just did a report that shows that the suicide rate is among the correctional officers the life expectancy they're expected to live 18 months after they retire they die at age 50 so that's the other thing is we're not adequately supporting the people who were there you know they see some very crazy and they put up with a lot yeah I think that has an effect so training and support ongoing everyday support inclusion in decisions and I think you know a little jaded because I was just in this meeting yesterday but the pot we've got to get controlled politics I mean politics is everywhere but it is very political and people are aware of that you mean the the facilities or the apartment facilities central office it's very political and it's it's by political do you mean cronyism nepotism what do you mean by political things people feel like if management likes you management will reward you or the management doesn't like you they'll come out to you I don't think that's political but that's maybe it's not the right term but you know we did have I'll give an example so so that's a good example I don't mean to keep just picking on them but just a few superintendents go you know we had a situation there where there was a superintendent who had a team are you on my team and if you're on his team you got treated really well if you're not on his team you get the promotion you didn't get you know anything you were looking for and we pushed really hard to get that guy out of the chest fortunately at some point central office interest to be a sales interest merge both one and he got he was out but that's a good example okay you know politics maybe isn't the right term but so I hate I don't want to end this conversation what are you going to just because we have because I want to choke and die we don't want you to die in here okay go out there and die to get the turnover rate for superintendents I don't know I mean you should probably be able to get that for superintendents I also look at what Steve was talking there were 60 vacancies vacant positions in the department of corrections as of June 30 2019 okay so the reason I'm good is because Betsy has to leave us at three and she's here for another I do I have a couple of just just like two one sentence yes and no questions right this is just just updating you secretary Smith this is hiring a law firm a consultant to do a full review of the gendy county correctional facility and other cultural things across so that is well in a way the firm has been engaged and we're working for them to provide the documents that they need to do their work and then we are working with a agency human services secretary on recruitment for the permanent superintendent so that's just starting and hopefully we'll be posting that job pretty soon so they are the commissioner the commissioner so they are looking at a national search and they really want to cast that net wide and hopefully you know they'll be something that is actually interested in doing that job I mean as Steve said that any job in the department of corrections is very difficult and there's burnout and there's burnout at all levels of the superintendent level as well so the management level as well so it's not just it's not just the rank and file employees it's all employees and I think that that's because it's really really difficult work thank you so we're going to put this on again for hopefully we can have some some concrete things that we can begin to look at and if anybody has any interest look at the justice reinvestment because some of this is kind of happening because some of the changes that will be made in the in this corrections and judicial system will also impact employees thank you thanks oh yes I'm sorry we have it I will tell you when we're going to look at it where you can look at it next Wednesday at three fifteen there's much so I can share with you about measures we're taking yeah good okay okay good thank you thank you sorry if this is a discombobulated conversation oh it's good I just wish I could do it with that yeah just don't die in here you got my dear thank you I wrote um I see Paul has given us a language I also wrote to Betsy this morning and gave her my language so if you want to share share that and I apologize it was really rough language that I need you that was I bet she was on the basis so so so yesterday um we we pulled this build back because there were some suggestions about some other things that we might ask the the commission to look at and come back to us with and we wanted to be a little more directive to them so this is what we came up this is what I what I gleaned out of our conversation for the record Betsy I asked the legislative council for you to draft number 1.1 a potential amendment to s198 which is relating to an enforceable state code of ethics this bill is introduced has several sections the first one is just a purpose and intense section that being to require the commission to propose an enforceable state code of ethics and the intent being the general assembly intends to consider it and an act one into law next biennium section two the bill is introduced contains the proposal language section three contains the year extension of the commission's funding source and then section four is the effective date this potential amendment would only be a new section two about what the proposal would need to contain and this is not edited yet and I may have more revisions for me whenever you have a final version I can run over to the editors but what you have in front of you here is um Adam chair based on your notes that you provided to me earlier today so this language would say for specifically the commission's proposal for an enforceable state code of ethics it would require the commission to work with all three branches including the office of the secretary of state and with advocacy groups in the public for the commission to propose to the general assembly for statutory enactment a state code of ethics that would cover all three branches of state government including exempt and statewide office holders subdivision a2 says also working with those groups the commission would also need to recommend options for enforcement and implementation of that proposed state code of ethics and subsection b is the deadline to make that proposal to the two gov ops committees being the date provided in the bills introduced which is November 15th 2020 so and I'll just tell you why I put that the second the first one because we assume that the commission would be working with all those people anyway and we didn't need to tell them but thought it doesn't hurt to tell them to make sure to work with all those people and to make sure that it covers everyone and then the second the two that I put in there was instead of being specific about what they the issues that they should look at and assuming any kind of conclusions that they came to was just recommend options for enforcement and implementation so those options could and they could say we think it should be implemented and enforced just exactly like it is now or we think that there should be a fully funded commission that has investigators and police and you know I mean they will come up with some recommendations to us for the implementation and enforcement but one thing I'll note just madam chair that differs from the bill is introduced is this proposal would bring in the judicial branch and I do yeah I wasn't sure if we I think there would be constitutional concerns with that because the Supreme Court has exclusive disciplinary authority over the judges and it has its own judicial rules of conduct so I would anticipate that the judicial branch would express concerns about okay I was too sure but that's just the judges I only look at the judges they are not looking at the staff the Supreme Court also has by the constitution administrative control over the judicial branch and so I think if you do want to pursue this to be applied to the judicial branch I would think we want to hear from at least the court administrator on the judicial branch's perspective on being wrapped in potentially unenforceable state code of ethics well this goes to our discussion yesterday where we said if we have a base state code of ethics that everybody will engage with and owned each area each branch could have an additional overlay just like we allow municipalities to have more regulation but we set a statutory minimum but they can't have less of so why couldn't it be constructively together to establish that and let them do because in the constitution it says the Supreme Court shall have administrative control of all the courts of the state and disciplinary authority concerning all judicial offices and attorneys and law in the state so the only thing that controls the legislative branch is constitutional provision that's why you can control municipalities because you do have statutory authority over them what I'm expressing here is that I have a feeling that the legislative branch does not have statutory authority to enact a code that would control the judicial branch. For the legislative branch and we didn't put this in here but it's for non-core responsibilities only and we didn't put that in here but I don't know if you want to put it because it would cover the the two branches and but for legislators it only covers non-core responsibilities and that was clear in 198 yeah meaning voting it doesn't cover right and I don't know if it's necessary to put that in or I think it's up to you how you want to phrase it whenever that proposal did come back to the general assembly we can have further conversations about what the commission from a constitutional perspective could have ability to regulate as it relates to the legislative branch I would prefer to see it in there making it clear just because it was anticipating questions yes okay but we're keeping sector state would also mean that it didn't go investigate all the non-core stuff and all the core stuff and then and present something that we said well that's not what we want you to do and we're keeping secretary well it's working with them this this doesn't yeah the commission would work with the godgiver branch the legislative branch and the secretary of state and advocacy groups and the public yeah but this goes to my hope that we would be more explicit about our ownership and create opportunities for us to as legislators to engage in this work during the course of the fall anybody can do that let's see why does it say including exempt and state by office holder what I mean I know what exempt means but why does it say exempt there because I put it there well if we not think this means exempt employees right yes okay were they not covered before he's confused as to why I'm not saying it's bad I'm just wondering why I just wanted to make it clear that it applied to statewide office holders and if exempt employees are are considered executive branch employees that would be covered under here we don't need the word exempt in there but I think we do need to stay with the statewide office okay you can take out exempt I don't care and then I have a broader question or not broader but I'm looking at what Betsy brought us I'm looking at what Paul Burns brought us and I'm just wondering whether there's a way to mesh them they don't seem in some ways that far apart there's this different language but I mean the first one seems taken care the second one to report out line force and powers is sort of applied because said recommend officer enforcement and implementation public transparency could be integrated into number two into the implementation right I just want you know yeah does that make sense can we try to do that I I'm looking at you but I know it sounds like you could probably do it language-wise I don't know that we need to put in a transparency plan a public transparency plan that should be part of the implementation how they're going to implement it I would think Paul do you want to weigh in for the record Paul Burns executive director of EPIRD so I had not senior draft I'm chair I just made it up at 11 me too but but I think they are largely overlapping in interest so I appreciate that and I think the language is a little bit different in several points I wouldn't quiggle with that I I think the language that you have for subsection you know one and two it's fine I put in potential costs if you don't want them to make an estimate of cost that's it's not the most important thing for me I think that will be a question that would come obviously and then the third point was just one it is it would be a demonstration of of a commitment on your part for public transparency for certain of these proceedings like when a violation has been found you think that should be public it's it's not drop-dead requirement for me and certainly we're going to press for that kind of thing I don't know that that's the one thing that's kind of not in your proposal and then the last one and I'll be quiet but it is you mentioned an opportunity for the public to be engaged and I think that's probably fine as is I just want to make sure that there would be an opportunity not necessary for public hearing but for public comments to be given and I think that's basically implicit in the language that you suggested so that's fine with me so we're largely there that transparency would be the question my comment about that would be that that would be part of the option for implementation and enforcement and I I am not sure I think that by putting that in you are raising so many red flags because I first of all I don't know if I agree that every time there's a violation it should be public I I don't know that because I don't know what kinds of violations there might be that are confidential or shouldn't be public so I'm not going to I would until it's adjudicated and you know that it's actually been a violation even even if there has been found to be a violation I'm not sure that all violations should be made public so I think that would be part of the implementation recommendation that's my only that's why I left that out why the office of secretary state is called out I mean why not it's just including yeah but it's the only one that's called well because though working with the executive branch the legislative branch and because because the secretary of state's office is bull on this right I mean because they're kind of part of the executive branch but not really part of the executive branch and so I put them in there because I mean we could have put all the statewide offices in here but I think that the secretary of state's office is the one that is the most concerned about this we could have put the auditors because they're not really part of the executive branch I just find it they are but if and assume it's Larry if whoever is the executive director I think if they're going to do their job they'll do that right well we can take the secretary of state's office state executive and legislative branch I would before that okay I'm fine with that you have to I was doing this act I'm trying to get it madly to medicine and let's an addicts groups in the public I do think it is um they probably want to change I'm sorry party online 10 change three to two party online 11 I'm sorry 11 oh yes you want to exclude the judicial yes and you want to put that in there for non-core legislative yes someplace I don't know where that goes sure how you do that sure I can use the language from the bill is introduced and also um v perks proposal because we made this is no no no okay um one thing that I was interesting it was raised in the purpose recommendations was um the staffing that would be necessary because I I do think it'll be important to understand what the staffing needs will be we had a conversation about the prosecutor that should be the investigator needs um what the the executive director's current role what the proposed role would be um they also requested administrative staff whether that would be necessary and then potential contracting with an administrative law officer for hearings etc you mean to do that enforcement well but isn't that wouldn't they come back with a plan for enforcement and implementation and they'd say we need to have 13 staff members arena to have none I don't think I don't want to put in here because that is part of how they would implement it sounds good I think you could argue that I well I think if you're back because then I'm not opposed to putting in more words in there but if you're coming back with the plan to implement you're going to say this is how we're going to implement that this is what it's going to take right staff wise to implement it so it does seem it's part of the yeah I think it's important well but you know I agree you agree that we should put in there they need to come back with staffing recommendation yes but that is that isn't what I said you said I said it is enforcement and implement that implementation implementation implies staff right the suggestion was that we put in here including staffing and cost recommendation I don't think you need to okay okay I'm sorry I didn't know we're not because that's like how we're going to do it right but we don't need to you don't need to be too persistent so we have this schedule again we thought we were done so we have a schedule again for is it Thursday is it this Thursday no today is Thursday we haven't scheduled for some time Thursday is local government day right and what we thought we would do is sometimes you know we go up on the floor there and sometimes they keep us up there for many hours because they have so much to throw at us I don't think there will be that much this year I don't think there's that much controversy that they have with us this year so what we thought is after if we get done up there in a reasonable time we'll come down here and finish this up does that so it would be just kind of flexible on next Thursday we might even do it in front of well the house committee will be there also but right oh that fabulous group oh no right till I tell you about my dream did I didn't tell you about my dream yet about health members anyway okay our partners in the house I'm actually on the road and I really thought we were gonna put this out as the first bill that came out without any amendments so I know I know I know I know so you are the reason some of the reason may I ask why if we're taking it back in the committee back to you and if we're taking this back we did why over okay sorry sorry I thought we took it back in the committee yes so I don't understand why we have to do it as an amendment we don't okay so let's not no let's just do it as a let's just incorporate it let's just do it as a strike all and do it right bill exactly okay because we don't want we don't want the original language in there if it conflicts with this yes exactly I would rather have a clean bill and it doesn't it confuses everybody okay yeah so you would just want to strike a form but thank you that was my point so you want to maintain the purpose and intense section in one yes and the extension of the funding source so I think there will be a bill without amendments what's that yes it'll be a bill without any amendments but it will be an amendment to the original there's nobody's gonna know that except us no they don't know it up there because you have to say can I speak to the bill isn't very transparent we'll see transparent you can speak introduce it as you know okay may we thank you Bethany thank you okay thank you we're not done where you going a little are we do we have a minute break so we can get some tea if we have if we can be back here in three minutes okay but that means we have to leave right away and get the teawater and get back here and I do not have to leave so it's been reasonable okay Allison don't talk yes