 Good evening. Hello. Welcome to SOAS. Good evening, everyone. Thank you all for joining us for this very special SOAS Centenary lecture and a warm welcome to everyone actually across the world also because tonight Tonight this event is being live stream So there are far more people joining us than I think you can even see to your right and to your left I am Leslie Vingemore. I'm director of the Center on Conflict Rights and Justice here at SOAS and the politics department And it is really and I sincerely mean this it's a true honor for me to be welcoming the renowned human rights lawyer Hina Jelani For this special centenary lecture It I really can't say that enough the series that this is part of Features lectures by high-profile guests speaking on subjects that are very close to the SOAS mission And I suspect very close to the hearts and to the work of many of you here this evening We have welcomed many speakers Such as Woli Soyinka, Forrest Whitaker, Claudia Rodin and last week Raja Shahadeh who spoke at the school Hina Jelani is very special to SOAS. She has come here many times She is a lawyer practicing in the Supreme Court of Pakistan She is also the director of AGHS legal aid cell a legal aid in human rights NGO in Pakistan She established Pakistan's first all-women's law firm in 1980 the cases that she has conducted there have on numerous occasions become landmarks for setting human rights standards in Pakistan She also founded Pakistan's National Human Rights Commission She was one of its founding members and its first legal aid center Her special areas of concern in her work have considered have concerned the rights of women minorities Children's children and prisoners including political prisoners and her activity in these areas include legal aid Advocacy for rights proposing and preparing legislative drafts for law reform designing and conducting Projects for the protection promotion and implementation of human rights of disadvantaged groups and their social economic and political development From 2000 to 2008 she served as the special representative of the United Nations Secretary General on Human Rights Defenders in 2004 she became a member of the UN Security Council established International Commission of Inquiry on Darfur and in 2009 she was appointed as a member of the UN Fact-Finding Commission on Gaza From 2012 to 2015 she was a member of the global civil society advisory group to to UN women So it's it's clear the expertise that she brings not only to the world of human rights But also to us at SOAS is something that we value a tremendous amount Tonight Hina will be in conversation with our director of SOAS, Baroness Valerie Amos Baroness Amos as we all know joined us as director of SOAS in September of 2015 and Previous to this she served in the United Nations as the Under Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator at the United Nations Tonight's conversation Promises to offer us insights across many subjects from Hina's legal career The role of women in the practice of law political activism and her experience working in the United Nations I Mentioned earlier that our Centenary Lecture series has been key to providing a space to debate issues that are very close to the SOAS mission And this is why we've also in our centenary year launched the questions worth asking campaign So our students and academics can keep on asking very important questions For example, we ask as part of this campaign. Is there a solution to the world's refugee crisis very easy questions of very Not very easy questions. What happens after war? Should we all speak the same language? What makes a global citizen? And it's true to say I think for those of us who have been at SOAS for a short time or a very long time Or maybe even only to visit and come to a public lecture That it's clear that we have been asking searching questions here at SOAS and through this campaign what we're seeking to do is to Develop support for these questions and for the institution, but especially for scholarships and student experience initiatives For academic projects and for a DAO post and so I would encourage you to take a look you can go on to the website It's so as to ASA AC UK backslash questions Please have a look and please for tonight's event if you can make sure that your phones are on silent But we we do very much encourage you to tweet And if you would use the hashtag so as 100 to to indicate our so as a centenary And if you would join me in welcoming now Hina Jelani and Valerie Amos And enjoy this evening's lecture. Thank you Leslie, thank you so much and Hina It is an absolute pleasure to welcome you To be here. Thank you And I know that you have been with us Many many times, but I think we're at that place and time In the world when we really feel that it's important to revisit all of these issues around human rights and You've had the most tremendous experience your CV which was Just that line speaks for itself, but I know that one of the things you care Absolutely passionately about is the role of human rights Defenders and You've had many many firsts, but I know that you're particularly proud that you were the first UN special representative for human rights defenders something that you did for eight years and In an interview You said and I quote About human rights defenders they contribute to poverty alleviation humanitarian assistance post-conflict reconstruction And to improving individual indicators of development such as access to health care and adult literacy Among many other activities Why do you think that human rights defenders are so very important? Look, I think in the world now has spent Decades to create human rights standards and to create also bodies globally that deal with the promotion and protection of human rights, but Most people forget that human rights cannot be visible and cannot be implemented and protected if there are not those who are willing to put themselves at risk in very very difficult circumstances and promote human rights and undertake activities for the promotion and protection of human rights the world over it is these people who are largely at risk and That risk can never be mitigated Unless and until the right to defend human rights is recognized as Implied in all human rights instruments this right to defend human rights is an independent right in itself And it is the the the legal obligation under all international human rights instruments Not just a right, but also an obligation Not just for the state, but also for civil society actors to defend human rights. So in any action against them that that obstructs in any manner their activities is a very serious violation of human rights But at the same time, it's not just a violation of human rights See these are human these are human beings. These are people who are working in very difficult circumstances Human rights defenders today just for the Action to promote and protect human rights are being killed are being disappeared Put on the arbitrary detention Their work is being vilified Many times if they are there their freedom of association is is being curbed And I think if today there is still a commitment Towards human rights You can imagine how valuable their work is It is because of these defenders that we still recognize human rights as a universal value Well, I'll come back in a moment to this idea of human rights as a universal value and where we are Today because I think many of us are very worried about the state of human rights around the world But what do you think continues to motivate human rights defenders who face These significant challenges in carrying out that role, you know I think first of all we must understand that these are ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances I think generally in my opinion the kind of interaction I've had with people who do the kind of work that I do myself. I'm also a human rights defender I think it's just number one that is they retain the Capacity to be outraged when they see injustice. They see discrimination and they see violence We can't turn our face away and I think that's the that's the main Reason why people indulge in very risky work because they do feel that there's no option And I think that's that's what I find everywhere in the world Wherever I've seen human rights defenders who are at risk and I have been in in in touch with them This is the first characteristic that you identify in those people They had the option, but they didn't want to take that option And when for example You're based in the whole You see what is happening for example here in the United Kingdom where we had a commission looking at The idea of a Bill of Rights for the UK we've had a long campaign against our Human Rights Act and Actually getting rid of our Human Rights Act there you are sitting in you know the middle of Pakistan With other human rights defenders and you look at what is happening in Britain What is your advice to us? About the extent to which We have gone out to raise awareness about why our Human Rights Act is important And in the way that we seek to defend it look I come from a country where the constitution very Clearly spells out fundamental freedoms and human rights Especially the right to human dignity But not much is done in that context because we don't have organic law to support What the Constitution says in Britain? Yes, you have an organic law. I don't see the reason why This law should be In any way denigrated or its value should be denigrated if anything I think you need to improve it and make it stronger I was just speaking to you just before we entered this room and Told you about this international commission of jurist Mission that we did fact-finding on several countries around the world on how Counter-terrorism is compliant with human rights norms and with with the laws in the different countries And we found that the comparison between Australia and UK Was certainly in favor of the UK because there were many restraining factors in the in the in the Human Rights Act Which did not bound the Australian? State in in in any way and they could commit human rights violations In counter-terrorism With with no accountability and almost impunity because there was no legal barrier here There is a legal barrier to act in accordance with law and with just and fair procedures So do you think we're complacent? The what do you think we have become complacent? I think I think what I see the world over is is is complacency on the one hand and a failure in Promoting the values of human rights and preventing Other tendencies to to in many ways Denigrate those values Discrimination is on the rise What we thought would never be a part of anybody's public Position now people claim You know electoral successes on the basis of such Claims and such positions So I do believe that this is the time that human rights values are declining and let me also say that they will not decline to the to the Disadvantage of the elite it will always be the poor the marginalized and the more vulnerable people who will suffer if human rights as values are not Do not remain as the as the standard to which everybody must rise Whether it is on the on the social level or on the level of the state I think this is going to hurt people who are more vulnerable Wanted to take you back if I may You come from a very activist family Your father was imprisoned several times for challenging the military and religious authorities in Pakistan you yourself have been arrested you've received death threats Your family have been threatened What's giving you The strength to carry on I Don't think it's strength really, but it's more like Resilience, let us say I like everybody else. I think there's no option How would I benefit that everybody else thinks that there's no Well, I think it's a it's a it's a conscious decision that you've made and it's it's a difficult decision That you have made because you you were you know on many occasions when you face those, right? one of the options open to you was to leave Pakistan and you didn't leave I can't leave Pakistan because I that's my home and My my Instinct is that if that's the place I want to live in I want to make it easy for myself as well as for others If that happens for others, that's fine But it's for myself too that I work I'm a woman and for that matter, I think working, you know Trying to survive in a very male-dominated society in a society that resists Non-discriminate values of non-discrimination values of tolerance. I think in that kind of society if you Are a woman if you are a person that believes in fairness and justice I have many many people in Pakistan who who do the kind of work that I do and it is in that Group and that society of human rights defenders that I think it would I find it easier to overcome any fear I I'm not stupid. I know that when these threats come they mean something and I'm very careful, of course But this is what that has to be done And I hope that you know This resilience produces results ultimately and it has in even in a country like Pakistan We have made progress Although we would like it to be much more But it is still not static or stagnant So it's these small successes that give you the energy and the will to to go forward. I mean Everybody will tell you that we'd rather do work for human rights and be safe But at the same time if we don't have that kind of environment The option is not to stop because that won't change anything and growing up and Seeing your father Arrested I mean what kind of impact do you think that that had on you? I think the first impact that it has had on me and which has been of great value to me Is that my fear of prison went away? So even even a fear of prison in Pakistan Yes, a fear of prison went away and when I was arrested once and taken actually taken to prison believe me I Was not as frightened as my other colleagues were who were also taken to prison at the same time because for me, this was a place where I would go and see my father and Sometimes it was like a picnic because you could see him only very infrequently So I mean that way I think it has helped. It's not something extraordinary. It's not something that overwhelms you It's not pleasant certainly, but I can't I mean just to share with you Although I usually don't I am perhaps the only person in the world who gained weight in prison I Well, I have to say I'm I'm I'm still trying to deal with that image of Prison as a picnic and gaining weight in prison though those two phrases are going to stay with me for a very long time Now what I'm going to do I have a whole series of questions But I know that you in the audience would all also have questions So I just want to bring in a couple of people before I continue with some of my questions Anyone have a question? Please There should be a mic somewhere Hello mic is No, there is not a mic. Do you mind standing up and yeah The mic's coming down here, please. Thank you We need to by the way Thank you. Uh-huh this one there. Uh, my name is Aisha Sidhi Khan and I'm from Pakistan And I was practicing law in Istanbul before coming here for my masters and I started off as a human rights lawyer so, uh, I mean we would do strategic litigation on issues like drone strikes in forced disappearances death penalty and I was very passionate about these issues and But I felt that you know we can set those ripples But we don't really see those results out there. Maybe it takes decades But it's kind of frustrating. You really want to do something, but you don't see things happening So can you from your experience tell me that any concrete things which have happened in Pakistan as a result of human rights? Legation and activism Thank you. You know in my life as a lawyer There have been several frustrating Events, but I do see things and I think if if you are a human rights defender, you should always Try and be on the lookout to see what what has happened and what you have achieved There is never a failure. I'll give you one example When the women's movement was launched against discriminatory laws in the 1980s and women You know came out in a very activist and manner to to to resist The impact of these laws and to challenge the authority of the military regime that was doing all this We were standing on the streets holding up placards and saying You know down with these discriminatory laws Some people from my family say even to me today That you know you were standing there with this placard for 20 years Down with these laws and the only thing you've achieved so far and you gained only thing you've gained so far is weight But that's not true For one thing I think they fail to appreciate the fact that I was still that standing there And I mean by I mean all the women who were a part of the movement Secondly, please tell me if you're too young to remember this But that 80s decade was one of the worst in the life of Pakistan and especially for women minorities and other marginalized communities in 1988 Pakistan elected its first woman prime minister Every political party in the 1988 elections Had a women's program in their manifesto even Jamaat is yummy. What else do you want? The recognition that women are there and that non-discrimination is a value and That the women's issues have become so political. What else did you want us to achieve in eight years? So it's never a failure It is true that when we have gone one step further there be there have been two step backwards But remember that this one step further that you took gave you the energy and the will To go on with the struggle and we still go on you remember this whole scenario about honor killings in Pakistan Honor killings is a practice that is happening in many parts of the world and not just amongst Muslim societies Pakistan's women waged a war against honor killings There was a time when after an incident actually it happened in my office when a woman was killed by her family We went to the Senate With a resolution asking the senators to pass that resolution against honor killings One of the senators who supported us placed that resolution there and he was almost lynched in the center said On the basis that this is a part of our culture and how dare anyone challenge it today You will not find anybody Whether a politician an academic a religious leader Anybody who can publicly say that or defend honor killings They may not have changed their mindset, but publicly it's not something that is in any way Correct for anybody to say politically. So I think these are some things that you need to look for There has never been a total failure The fact you see we are not the state we can't really do much in terms of changing legislation But our voices must in some ways Become part of the narrative Become a part of the public discussions so that at least the issues become visible and In some ways become a part of what people generally talk about so women's issues Issues about minorities in Pakistan, you know the day before yesterday was holy and It is for the first time that Pakistan's Prime Minister celebrated holy with the Hindu community in Pakistan This is just a gesture to give a message to those who were Harassing minorities in Pakistan killing them driving them away Pakistan's a minority population, you know over the years has declined unfortunately because non-Muslim citizens have decided to leave that country and I'm glad that even though it's late in the day at least the Political element in our country has started to realize that this is not in the interest of the country itself Which has which is the the major force that has driven a prime minister in that country to celebrate holy a Hindu festival with that community So I think these are some of the things that we must as human rights defenders keep looking for and drawing courage For from such successes that things do change Change will not come overnight anywhere in the world So one put one case in a court and one good judgment from from a particular court And I'm talking to you as a lawyer will not change things overnight But then there will be a time when the most prejudiced judges will find it difficult to for instance denigrate women publicly in a court of law by calling them, you know these Frustrating divorces divorces or frustrated divorces these are words that we've gotten judgments and and things like women are the other Evil doers and they are the temptresses now. Nobody talks about it So 20 years ago. It was quite Frustrating to hear these but but these are things that do change and I think I have confidence in the value of human rights and dignity of people and non-discrimination And it's my confidence that counts really if I have confidence in Changing things I will go on whether there is a society that resists it. I don't care This is something that I think we have to make them understand Can I I'm going to bring you in in just a moment, but I wanted to just pick up on this point in relation to Women and human rights because you have been out there as a strong advocate really challenging On these issues and you talk about the fact that at a policy-making level At a political level No one is going to use these kinds of terms anymore But at the same time you need to wear the raise the awareness of women of those rights What kind of work has been done and what do you see as some of the successes in relation to women themselves actually becoming Having a greater understanding of their rights and then moving on to campaign for them. I think initially We made a strategic mistake by talking only to women So what I see today is very well aware Young women in Pakistan, but because we were not targeting the society The sensitivity and awareness of the society is not at the same level. So we have women now more willing and and You know in some ways passionate about Asserting their rights the society is resisting. So there's friction and this I have seen also In terms of the kind the the number of women who now Leave the home and seek protection in shelters that one of them I run in the hall So there is that friction women are aware now. They are asserting their rights We have to target the society So that the communities and the society itself Doesn't resist and the best way of doing that. I think is You know, it's awareness is fine But when there is a society that's so resistant, there has to be more authoritative means to To bring about change and that can be done only through the law So even though law is not just the only thing that can bring about change It is the first stepping stone and a tool in the hands of human rights defenders Because if there is no law and there's no legal right, which we can enforce What do you do? I mean, I'm a lawyer and I give advice to women all the time in family law Which some years ago was very weak in Pakistan. I Can't tell her, you know, sister wait till we bring about change in people's mindsets. I Have to find a way of helping her so Whatever you do even we made bad laws work for us because we had no option But that's the only authoritative tool that we can make work So I think it's important that awareness is proportionate to also the authoritative means that you may have for Allowing people the access to justice and also real effective remedies Thank you, the gentleman here who's been waiting. Yeah, ma'am Tika appreciate your holding Mood, you know on this subject But my humble submission is this That's how human rights can be inseparable from the social and economic system Which is prevalent in a country for example you being a lawyer the article three of Pakistan Constitution 1973 absolutely in unambiguous terms and unequivocally declares and proclaims that and Elimination all kinds of exploitation and if the wording of that amendment or the article which is three That from each according to his ability each according to his work May I ask you to come to the question? I I would like to just ask you what has been done collectively with all the force and the activism of human rights Activists and leaders Real ones and fake ones to get that article implemented Thank you. What are the impediments in its way military mullah or feudalism? Thank you. Thank you. I'm so glad you asked that question This particular article is one of the least used article in our courts of law under constitutional jurisdiction of the of the courts including that of the Supreme Court however You will notice that there are there is now a trend building especially under the human rights jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Pakistan Where this article has been referred to I wish much it is used much more than it is being now At this at this point, but I agree with you that it's a very valuable article gives extremely broad Range of of rights under this particular article it has not been done as well as we should have done To use this article and I hope that more and more people will use it one of the problems with our constitution if you notice is that while there are civil and political rights that are protected and Guaranteed under the chapter on fundamental rights the social economic and and Cultural rights are enshrined in in a chapter called the principles of policy and those are enforceable Those are obligatory on the state only if the state has the resources to do it in our country State always Hides behind lack of resources to fulfill its obligations under economic social and cultural rights What we say as human rights defenders the world over is that resources? Availability of resources is not the problem. The problem is allocation of resources and in many countries of the world fast pace of militarization of the state is Given more priority than finding the right kind of security for the people of that state now we talk about the the Security Council which many years ago pastor resolution 1325 talking about women's participation in peace be building and women's participation in in in in dealing with with the aftermath or Consequences of conflict Unfortunately the way that society as Crimes roles to women and the way that women still see themselves women have Largely restricted their peace and security activities to taking care of IDPs and refugees and We have become more and more a part of that particular process of serving Populations at risk because of conflict now That's fine, but it's not an empowering process Look feeling good is very different from feeling empowered It's very good. I feel very good when I do work on IDPs or refugees but what I what empowers me would be if I had a voice in Constructing the security paradigm and Constructing the security narrative I Want to be a part of national bodies that talk about security. I want to be a voice there I want to have my voice heard. Why should I? Start think why should I think that it is my my role only to deal with a mess that somebody else creates My job should be or my status should be To be able to create that narrative what what for me as a woman means What does security mean to me? So I think these are some of the things that we need to think about in terms of the role of the citizen and the role of women as citizens Not just nationally, but also to create that narrative at the Global level. I was at the Munich Munich security comes to a conference last month and I was astounded and Really horrified to hear almost every world leader speaking at that conference about raising defense expenditure as opposed to Looking after The populations Needs in their own countries But also the dire necessity of dealing with this mass movement of people that we are Experiencing right now. They have securitized the whole refugee issue. So all you hear is What kind of a security threat refugees can be little is a Little attention is given to the fact That under international law, these are people who are not illegal. I'm talking about refugees they have certain protections and They have certain rights Both over the host country and the country of a region and These this mass movement of people has to have some resolution we have to undertake innovative ways and Consistently look for ways of ending conflict Ending bad governance Ending people's need for employment and economic As far as the migrants are concerned there is every person in the world has the right to work This is part of their human right and Both the host countries and the countries of a region are Culpable if an environment and a climate has been made globally which is driving people out of their homes and Forcing them now I keep hearing this refugee crisis when the crisis is that of the refugee the challenges for the world Well, it's not a global crisis for the world or the Globally the crisis is of that poor community and the poor population that's now had to leave their home and Is now being being vilified looked at with suspicion and All humanitarian responsibility is put aside So I think these are some of the things that we have to look at from the point of view of the people who suffer and When we were speaking about human rights values now being being Something that people are stepping back from it is these people who will suffer if there is no prevention and preservation of Of this the of the human rights value if you fail to preserve it now the opportunity will be lost and Then we have to work what we did for 50 years will be behind So let me take you to another part of that security agenda and that Universal values agenda which is around torture You were recently elected president of the World Organization against torture congratulations But many of us have been very worried about the noises that were coming out of the United States during the campaign for the presidency and since that Torture may be returning to the counter-terrorism toolbox You talked I think in the interview immediately after you were elected president about the need to Convince people not just condemn their point of view in relation to to torture I think many of us are worried that in the world that we're in that convincing In a world where you know facts and evidence is not necessarily taken Seriously that we are on a very slippery slope What is your advice about what can be done? to basically combat this movement Towards the use of took torture in these circumstances. You know that a particular Sentence was in the context of convincing people Generally who are supporting Action of the state that amounts to torture. There is no way that we need to convince states Their obligations are already very clearly defined torture is a Right that can never be violated under any circumstances There is no Justification for torture at all under the law you can't bring out any circumstance to say because of this we are now Justifying to torture but what worries me and why I speak about convincing is that a large number of population in many countries has lost the power to analyze and are now blindly of influenced by their the state rhetoric and the fear that is being spread in the name of rising crime in the name of terrorism and Are going along with this notion that torture can ever ever be justified or has any value in counterterrorism or or controlling crime So that's why I said we need to now spread awareness also amongst the population so that they are convinced and they are not Misled into this belief that torture helps so That's one thing What is perhaps a little bit of hope that I see? Glimmer of hope is that the United States tried its best Many years ago under the Bush regime to justify some forms of torture Didn't succeed I Was recently in the United States and this was a fear that many of us were discussing from the human rights community And I'm happy to note that somebody Who was a part of the of the administration some time ago Said that that may not be a fear that comes about and because there is resistance from within the administration which means that We can still hope that this kind of Condoning of torture Will not in reality takes place take place This is something that especially coming from societies where the state has indulged in torture as a policy We understand that this is not going to take us anywhere. It will not read us of terrorism It will not read us of of crime As a lawyer, I know I'm I'm also I'm criminal lawyer. So I know very well that confessions under torture are The favorite method of Governments because it is their convenience that they are looking at But that has in many ways found the whole justice system Because torture in many times produces Confessions that are not real. They are only being made because they want to avoid torture. So many innocent people Get punished because of these fake confessions. We also know that torture has never produced evidence Either that will stand the test in a court of law or will indicate the right direction for investigation And we've had so many of these cases That it's now almost a scientific proof for us and not anecdotal and anymore Thank you, I'll take another question The lady up here Thank you Thank you. You mentioned Talking of the US in the past couple years There's noticed there's quite a large degree of complacency that goes towards issues of discrimination Within the United States because people take the opinion of oh, you know Racism is not half as bad anymore statutorily because we know no longer in Jim Crow south What ways have you seen in terms of dealing with that issue and dealing with complacency or opinions about Discrimination no longer being as bad. Therefore, we don't have to deal with it. I Don't think it's really complacency which is allowing a national narrative to be built which defies All norms of human rights. I don't think it's complacency. I think it is anger anger at something Else and you take it out on another. I think it's largely that's what's happening People say oh, there is frustration with the establishment. Well, if there is frustration with the establishment, what have you got against? The others who are either not of your same of the same color or of the same religion That you want to denigrate their rights. So I Really think it's not complacency. It's something that is very different and it's something that needs to be curved It's not a tendency that come that is coming out of Some some natural instinct. It's unnatural instinct That is allowing people to think in a manner in which they are Violating the rights of others and violating the most sacred of rights, which is that of human dignity and Okay, I've got a hand down here that's been here for a long time, but I'm gonna come down to you in one second I'm just gonna take one more up there Hi, thank you for sharing your experiences. So I come from Australia. So a system a government where You know, we tend to protect a system. That's very very flawed And protects well doesn't protect people in offshore detention systems. I was wondering what you thought Individual people can do in terms of protecting and promoting human rights I think first what they need to do is believe in the values of human rights themselves From the region from where I come Many times in the past we have seen Leaders using what they call Asian values to in some ways separate us from the universal values and saying You know, we are Asian people and we have our own values Well, let me say in the first place this kind of Position has always been taken to cover up There's a while and abuse of human rights that such leaders have committed and They were known for human rights abuse when they speak about Asian values. Let me also tell you There is not a single principle of human rights in the universal declaration of human rights in the To covenants on human rights or any other international human rights instrument that I don't cherish as a Pakistani coming from the South Asian region which has been largely in for many years under been under colonial rule Who knows the value of freedom more than we people do and I respect and recognize the struggle of my forefathers to say that these are Western values is An insult to those people In my region who have fought for freedom who have fought for Fort against discrimination fought for states that are better governed Fairness, I think it is it is an insult to them to call this Western values The universal declaration may have been signed in New York The point is everything in that declaration Refers to situations that we have confronted and we have fought to lift and remedy Can I I'm going to bring you in in a moment, sir But it's this issue of Western values that I want to pick up on because I know that you're on the advisory board of To the coalition for the International Criminal Court and of course the ICC very often has been accused of promoting Western values Western law European law. We've had South Africa and Burundi for example Russia the Gambia although with the change of government that might change With drawing from the ICC. What is your answer to that? You know, I think instead of withdrawing from the ICC these Leaders should have taken a very strong stand to improve the ICC I think that the ICC and the concept of international criminal justice is Absolutely necessary. It is also justified the statute of the ICC may have some weaknesses. We need However to lift those weaknesses. I don't see The role of the Security Council has been very strong in making sure that international justice is is you know widely served and that the Procedures apply To everyone in the world. I However Do not subscribe to the view that only Africans are being targeted. I Think that if we look at the Yugoslavian Tribunal much has been done there I would I wish that more can be done and I wish that the ICC is made stronger if people if countries start Opting out it will become even weaker. So if you feel that international justice must be done Many of these African leaders who have been brought to before the court Actually, it's their own people. It's their own governments who have referred them to the court So they can't claim discrimination in any way It is all our wish that nobody escapes and Let's bring the ICC to that condition where nobody will escape, but I don't think it's a white or European conspiracy To limit the accusation of international crime to all to one continent or one region Thank you. Finally, it's your turn. I'm sorry. It's taken so long My name is Jim Kern from the Irish Civil Rights Association. I have a brief question The United Kingdom now has the European Human Rights Act operating and a number of Politicians and lawyers want to replace it with a British Human Rights Act We Irish have experienced discrimination in human rights and civil rights from London administrations since 1169 and Finally, we have long memories Yeah, yeah, and a long record. We also have a long memory, but we also have a long record We're a very small nation and we have a long record of campaigning for human rights and civil rights And we are concerned not alone about our own country, but also about other Countries around the world wherever they may be my father the the question I have is The human the European Human Rights Act We in the free part of Ireland are going to retain it But if a British Bill of Rights was brought in it would affect the people in the occupied part of Ireland so my question is should we in the United Kingdom Abandon the European Human Rights Act or should we strongly support it or should we go for a British a British Bill of Rights, I Really can't answer that question. I don't know enough about it to give you any advice my instinct says that There has to be organic law to back up the the the access to to human rights and to produce effective remedies for the implementation of human rights that any Legal document can say contains we've been fighting for a long time To bring the principles of our Constitution Constitution within the realm of domestic law so that there is organic law really to back up what the Constitution says and with less Potential for adverse interpretations for the convenience of the state So these are some of the things I think that many of us go through in many ways I can't advise you But I hope that whatever is best in order to safeguard and protect fundamental freedoms and human rights of the population Concerned is adopted We are over time and I I'm going to use chairs privilege I'm afraid because I've got two questions. I really really want to ask So I'm going to ask them and hope that they're not too tricky. The first is That you've been a very outspoken outspoken critic obviously of military rule in Pakistan, but also some aspects of Islamic law in Pakistan and you said in an interview and I quote and I've sort of Or to the quote slightly to to make sense because I've taken it, you know from a longer quote if a national policy is founded on Religion sectarian and denominational differences within religions will be manifested in political tensions as well as oppressive restraints on descent Can you say some more about what you mean why that is so problematic and give some examples from your experience? Well, I mean Pakistan is a living example of what I've said in those few words I Respect people's right and freedom to offer religion. I respect people who want to Construct there and conduct their way of life in accordance with their beliefs but I Don't think that there is in any religion or any culture A justification for anyone to impose any kind of belief on others That is one thing in my country and I'll give you that example again, although it's happening in many other countries because that's the Circumstances that I know best Religion has been used or rather misused as A weapon of fear to create fear to do silence political Descent Anything that you say against a religious political element in that country is Suddenly turned into blasphemy it is not any kind of denigration of any holy personality or any religion that Gives rise to accusation of blasphemy if you talk against a scholar That is spewing out extremism That is spewing out intolerance and hatred today in Pakistan even that is blasphemy and People are using social media to create that kind of hatred They are pressurizing the state to target these people the result was a very recently five bloggers were disappeared by our intelligence agencies out of pressure from the religious lobby Look, it doesn't the point is that we should all feel good about our religion if we are believers Don't make us feel bad about our religion and Don't make us think about the negative about our religion all Religion all religions in the world if people believe in them should be to take us towards better human human conduct more respect for others More humanity rather than losing our humanity So in the light of that how optimistic are you for the future of Pakistan? I'm never pessimistic Like like Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said we are all prisoners of hope and that's one prison. I don't want to leave You know Jalani, thank you so much