 So welcome and thank you so much to all of you that are joining us today, welcome to another episode of the nonprofit show today we're talking about hiring for executive and vice president roles with Emily Chavez. Emily is the founder and CEO of joyful jobs and we will get into the nitty gritty with Emily on this topic here shortly. If you haven't met us yet, Julia Patrick is here CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group, and we also want to thank our sponsors that keep this conversation, like the one we're having having today with Emily, going strong so thank you to Bloomerang to the American nonprofit Academy fundraising Academy nonprofit nerd your part time controller the nonprofit Atlas, the nonprofit thought leader as well as staffing boutique so thank you to our sponsors. Please do check them out not quite yet but as soon as you know 29 minutes from now would be a good time for you to check out our sponsors so if you have not heard you can find all of these episodes also on these various channels like Roku YouTube I tried to put rotube together but that's not a thing yet. Amazon fire TV as well as Vimeo and then of course we're now streaming on all of your podcasts so listen to the nonprofit show wherever you stream your podcast. If you're not sitting down and watching this video component, you can just listen to us as you're exercising or traveling or, or what have you so please do check out these episodes there as well. And back to our guest Emily, welcome and thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thank you Jarrett thank you Julia I'm very excited. Yeah, seen some great episodes of your show so thank you so much for the opportunity to be a guest. Emily, I love the name of your, your company. And I have to say, we in the nonprofit sector, we don't always put joy and jobs together. Right, especially these days. It's about like how you came up with this. And actually before we start peppering you with questions like what joyful jobs, what you do and how you help the marketplace. Yeah, sure. So, joyful jobs is essentially a recruiting agency so I help primarily nonprofits as well as small to medium businesses with their hiring needs so usually what that looks like is an organization has a certain role that they need to fill. And I help out with that with sourcing candidates with screening them and just presenting the best pre qualified candidates for their particular role. But then I also have some additional services available, whether it be a need for like a chief fractional talent officer to help supervise recruiters or one of the things that you know as as things modernize more and more with technology. I'm encouraging all of my clients to look at getting an applicant tracking system if they don't have one yet you know the days of submitting an application via email should be behind us. I'm not doing with things like that or consulting even just yesterday I did a training for a client on how to do effective interviews so I have a variety of services available within talent acquisition. It is so needed and this plethora of services that you just shared. I'm grateful to have that in particular for the nonprofit sector. And that's exactly what we want to talk about today. For those of you that joined us in our green room chatter we talked a little bit and scratch the surface of our workforce. But Emily let's dive into the deep end and I would love to hear from you what our current status looks like in our market as it relates to the nonprofit talent acquisition. Emily, well, I think just about everybody at this point has heard of the term the great resignation right if you're on LinkedIn. There's so much just chatter about that and I think that at the bottom of all that is, there's a heavier focus now on, you know, throughout the pandemic, realizing what was really important to them and a big part of that has been toxic workforces and toxic culture so I think that that's really the reason behind a lot of people changing jobs at this time as they're reevaluating their life priorities. So I guess as far as nonprofits go, you know, in some ways nonprofits already have an edge, because most of your employees are mission driven they want to be with your organization because of what you do. So in that regard there is some somewhat less competition I guess, but that doesn't mean you know I think you still have to be very competitive and forward thinking and modernizing some of your internal culture so right now. Well, it always has been but diversity and inclusion is more and more a focus for a lot of employees what what the inclusive workforce looks like at a company opportunities for growth, especially as we have you know we were talking before about baby boomers are retiring and Gen Z is entering the workforce and they're young in their career and they want opportunity to advance so that is also huge is your culture your work for your organization promoting opportunities for that and offering your employees ways to grow professionally. Yeah, and then I guess another factor that can be difficult for for nonprofits is, are you able to offer a remote option or a hybrid option or a flexible schedule even because a lot of times that is a priority for a job seeker right now. And they may be able to get that other organizations so are you what ways are you combating those challenges to stay competitive. One of the things I'm thinking Emily and we mentioned this a little bit in our green room chatter is the inflation and that impact on the nation at large but truly into the workforce. And you know I saw a meme earlier today I think it was or yesterday my days keep you know floating along of you know when gas prices hit $7. This is how I'm commuting to work right and it was like basically you're not going to work so that remote viability is really key as we continue to change and navigate you know all of the changes that that continue happening. So how is the recruitment at this great resignation time point how is recruitment looking is it bleak is it high is it happening I mean what does this look like. Yeah. Well, it really depends on the role I mean I know that certain areas and certain roles are seeing candidate shortages. Great example Jared I know you're also in Arizona where I am. And you've probably noticed there is a shortage right now of like high level development roles so off development officers are fundraising professionals so that is one area particularly that I've seen a lot of employers struggle. But like we said you know if, if, if a organization can be willing to hire newer employees and train them up and really do a good job of retaining them. That is going to be key to keep your employees happy and to offer the growth opportunities and the flexibility that they're looking for so that you don't have to hire as frequently. Yeah, I mean as far as if you wanted to, to get into a little bit more of what that looks like and finding employees. These days you know you can't, there's the term post and pray you can't just post and pray. I've never heard that term that's fabulous, fabulous post and pray. Definitely so that you know just refers to exactly what it sounds like posting on a traditional job site and, of course you still have to do that too but nowadays you're you're really needing to go do some active sourcing and, and that's really what the term head hunting refers to is going out and finding your candidates they may not be actively looking for a job, but usually those are the best candidates so you have to approach them and be, you know get them to be open to a conversation with you as, as a recruiter. Wow. So, with that, I mean I always think of this as something that's very personality, kind of almost charismatic, that it's driven by who you know where you know them, and making new alignments. In this digital age and then where we have been, you know more isolated and those social interactions. IRL in real life have been pretty much eliminated. Are you still seeing this quote unquote head hunting done digitally. I think it's an interesting time right now because people are kind of starting to get back out there in person as the pandemic is knock on wood winding down a little bit but I mean it's always been a blend I would say for the last few years of virtual and in person and my personal hope is, you know maybe some more in person things will start happening because nonprofits are usually very community driven and local oriented so sometimes it is important to have that in person networking but yeah I mean a good head hunter is well connected with with VIPs in their industry in their community. You know, often a head hunter or recruiter will have some candidates on standby that they know are looking for a job and they're just waiting for the right job to come available so it is really about who you know and being able to conjure up someone in your head as soon as you know of a job opportunity. You know that's a valid point and that's one that we've talked about on the show before is you know if someone's not necessarily looking for a move but they are tapped on the shoulder right and I think that is quite a bit in our sector, are you seeing Emily that that is happening more frequently now, or are you seeing that is still kind of standard standard process it's not happening more or it's not happening less. I think it's probably happening a little bit more because you know like we said there's just a lot more jobs available right now, and a lot of hiring managers are or recruiters are having have to get creative to, to find new people so it's really all about effective messaging so you know if you are looking for someone to join your organization, you might not want to start off by saying that if they are pretty happy in their current job. You don't know if they're happy or not but you kind of have to assume that they are and kind of approach it initially as hey you know I love the work you're doing and I'd love to talk to you more and I don't know if there's any work that we could potentially explore together and maybe it does turn into yeah I'm really not interested in a move right now but maybe there's an opportunity for your, your nonprofit organizations to collaborate and that's that's great to you so I think it's just you know phrasing it as let's have a conversation and see where it goes. Yeah. Let's talk about the good all trick I'm, I don't know I'm going to call it a trick, where we send, you know, a job description to someone that we would love to apply we would love to attract this person and we say, hey sending this over to you to see if we'll really to see if anyone see if you know of anyone right but kind of planting that we like right if you're interested let me know giving a call. Tell, let's just talk about that right is that taboo should we be doing that is there a better way to do it. It's like you said it's kind of that good old trick where maybe it's a little taboo but I think it's, it is happening and if you want to stay competitive. It's something you kind of need to do as well and like you said if you're phrasing it. Do you know anyone who might be interested wink wink. That that opens the door without being too direct or directly poaching I would say just, you know, of course being cognizant of any relationships that are already existing and and not burning any bridges between your organizations or people that have a connection to your organization and you wouldn't want to offend anybody or upset them. Well, and I, that's a valid point because I think we can all agree no matter how large our nonprofit world seems, it's really quite small when you get down to the granular level right you really identify that we are a small community and this big global and you know seeing some of our viewers on today I know that, you know we've got viewers on from Canada, we've got viewers on from all over and truth be told, it's a small network of us, you know, like, there's there's a small network in this really big economy. So let's, I have a question. Okay, Jared you said something, and I want to ask Emily because this just sparked a question. You know, for so long, we were taught, or we we structured our HR by defining what it was we needed in terms of a job description, and we tried to make it non personal and just say, These are the tasks that we need. It seems to me that I'm now seeing a switch to these are the types of people we need and these are the talents we need, and then we'll plug them in to what, what we need to operate with and I'm wondering if you're seeing that too, or if that's just my own question. You know you're absolutely right Julia I think it's it's coming from that challenge of finding employees and employers really have to go back to the drawing board and think about what is absolutely necessary in this role and you know when we're talking about executives, obviously, a CEO, an executive director of VP they can't be brand new to the field, or maybe they're brand new to nonprofits I think that's something that employers have have had to be flexible on lately is, of course the preference is someone who's coming from the industry but if they have transferable experience. You know that might be that might be what you need right now or what you can find is the reality so you are right you know it's it's a lot more about the your abilities and your potential. More so than all of these hard requirements that it used to be. I find that fascinating because you know that really when I think about it coming from the nonprofit Academy viewpoint or lens. You know we have had a big push, especially with women in the sector to navigate up on skill set so that they could then apply right. So I need this certificate I need to extend my education I need this time serve and so that you would look good on paper in essence right. And now it is. It seems like it's swinging back to this personality driven point and what you just said I think it's fascinating to be aware of that, and I don't know it. It's just seems like it's going to really change structurally how we operate our nonprofits, because we're going to be coming in with with now a more human centric approach. And those personalities are going to change your morph our nonprofits versus the tasks at hand. I don't know Jarrett if that's like to like, you know who but if you do you see that Jarrett. Yeah, absolutely. You know I think all of this is changing and I think we have a fantastic question from one of our viewers. I'm going to throw it in now and I know we want to talk about how the recruitment process works so Emily if this question kind of moves us into that conversation. Yeah, I'm going to but the the viewer wants to know our candidates now asking for different benefits, you know perks are different work arrangements, even beyond this virtual space, more than before the pandemic. So how is that you know it's happening, but then also really looking at, you know, how is the negotiation happening. I guess a couple of new things that are kind of emerging trends on the market right now is, like you said the the additional benefits or perks that might be not as common you know beyond your health insurance beyond your PTO. So things like pet insurance or ID theft protection, you know, those kind of things are part of benefits packages, sometimes now and, of course it depends on what the particular candidate is looking for but those are just a couple things that come to mind beyond the, what you typically think of. So yeah, it definitely, I think that as more employers offer more options in the benefits arena candidates are becoming more aware of that and it's a competition you know you you have to be prepared as a nonprofit to share and pitch even in a sales way kind of what your benefits are and what's unique about them. Gone are the days where you just say, oh this is the position, you know, here's the salary, here's the benefits, blah blah blah yada yada it's very boring and mundane like you really have to spice it up now and, and understand first what the candidate is really looking for and what their needs and priorities are, and then really kind of when you're making them an offer it's a sales pitch of here's some of our benefits and the ones that might not be as common that that you would get if you work here. You know, head insurance what a great add on for people that you know if that's something that's that's important to them and one thing we've learned during the great resignation is certainly the variety of importance for so many different people that has really, really come to the surface. So let's do move us into I know we don't have too much time left but let's talk about this recruitment process and on your website. For those of you that might have checked out checked out Emily's website, please do that, but you talk about this RPO so how does the RPO work and, as I said, what the heck does RPO stand for. Yeah, so can mean a couple things but in this case we're talking about recruitment process outsourcing. And so really what that means is, again, kind of kind of obvious I guess but it's a recruiter who can handle an outside recruiter who handles all of your recruitment functions from start to finish so everything from posting the job to sourcing candidates and doing screen screens and then phone screens usually they'll also coordinate with internal hiring managers to schedule the next interviews. So really kind of functioning like an in house recruiter but being an outside agency. One of the instances that I've seen employers need RPO is a mid sized organization, usually if they have like a handful of roles on an ongoing basis, you know, maybe one or two a month, but they, they don't have a need for an in house recruiter they can't justify the salary. So maybe they do have one or two HR staff, but they're, you know, handling everything and it's a HR director and so they're more focused on their culture and their benefits and all of those kinds of things and they don't have the time to put towards the recruitment piece so those are a couple of kinds of employers that I've seen need recruitment process outsourcing. And then I guess to add on to that you know if it's a long term arrangement or a permanent arrangement, if they're hiring a company like mine to do recruitment process outsourcing. We can also help out with some of the more strategy related and process related items of recruitment. So, what is your employer brand you know what are you putting out there on your job descriptions. I talked about applicant tracking systems a little bit how are you gathering your applicants and what interview questions are you're hiring managers asking those kinds of things are usually the responsibility of the organization, but with recruitment process outsourcing. That is something that I as a recruitment agency would be integrated in. Now, do you do that at all levels I know today we're talking specifically that executive the VP kind of level is this RPO the recruitment process outsourcing standard process for every position. Good question. So, I think it actually is not as relevant to executive and VP levels just because you're not going to have as many of those, hopefully. But usually recruitment process outsourcing is more for your mid level roles. And, but yeah the the head hunting part that we kind of talked about earlier. That's an executive search that is when you are looking for a leader within your nonprofit. Perfect. And I'm curious like, I know I have all these questions Julia and you're like, I do too. I have I'm next. We have we have a viewer that asked another question to we need to get in queue. Are you seeing more Emily where there is advancement from within right so maybe the population is it coming in by way of new applicants but now's a time to really develop our workforce internally. Is that happening more now. Yes, and if it's not happening. It really should be because of course to get to that executive level it, it is a long progression so they may not start at the very bottom of the chain but I have worked with a few nonprofits that their current executive director started in, you know, when they've worked to their way up they were a bookkeeper office manager and now they're the ED so that is, it's always great to see organizations that do that and I think that to be competitive like we talked about earlier, nonprofits to make sure that they have intentional plans and strategies and workforce development, even succession planning, those kinds of things that are setting up their employees to advance within their careers. Great. Okay, Julia. Okay, yours in. Oh my God I know I'm like, I'm under the, I'm under pressure here because I want to answer a question another question that came in that says, please give examples of personality driven job descriptions, which we were talking about a few moments ago. I'm thinking that this would be like the call for, you know, using words like you have empathy, you are curious, you want to solve problems or you're a good listener I mean things of that nature that kind of fill the cultural aspect of an organization versus you need to have two years of Chinese studies, or don't apply. Right. Right. I'm saying. And so for me, that's kind of that was part of my question is how, how far do we to Cheryl Sandberg's, you know, phraseology, lean in on these jobs. Yeah, thank you lean in on these job descriptions which we know actually shed off interested folks because they'll read one thing and they'll be like oh yeah I, I don't know that now could they learn about women. And it's more women than men I didn't want to be man basher because our executive producers on with us today. But yeah, but women will say oh my gosh you know, I only had two years of Chinese and it's saying they want three or I mean some like things like that that are really cutting off resource a source of potentially really strong labor for us and I'm just that my question to you and to answer this viewers question was, you know, is it appropriate or can we write into the job descriptions, maybe more nuanced personality oriented things. Yeah, and it's interesting you bring that up because I just got a question yesterday from a nonprofit CEO who was asking, you know, what are your thoughts on preferred versus required qualifications and is it true that sometimes preferred will deter people from applying. So the thing I told him that I would stand by is, I think that just like the shift to culture in an organization, you've got to start that from the very beginning so your job posting should reflect that I think that some job postings are still kind of old fashioned for lack of a better term and there are ways to spice it up and make it more genuine and more reflective of your true culture without being, you know, cheesy like we've seen the, the job posts that are way out there and don't really, they're not an actual job title like I'm not saying to do that, but to your point about integrating more of the personal component you know that starts with the, or not the personal the soft characteristics and personality traits so that starts with the job description and yes thinking long and hard about what are your actual requirements to do the job well, and then maybe cutting out some of the fluff, you know, this has been fascinating Emily I'm so thrilled that you would join us because this is just a discussion point that I, Jared I don't know about you but I feel like these things are being woven in to almost every every guest we have on. I mean, it is it's it's relevant right it's not an event absolutely so Emily this has been fantastic we warned you our time went by quickly and it does. But founder CEO joyful jobs joyful jobs.org checkout Emily's website it is fantastic. And I know we will have more questions for you so it's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you both is great chatting. It's been wonderful hey we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors again, Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller the nonprofit nurse herself. Hello, Jared ransom fundraising Academy, the nonprofit Atlas nonprofit thought leaders and staff in boutique as we end this day and we remind ourselves with this message all the time. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow everyone.