 Welcome to Toffy TV, it is the footy show daily, bit of a change of tone today, we're basically sick of talking about when football is coming back, so we're going to have a talk about VAR, something that a couple of our recent guests spoke about. Yeah, spoke to Andy Gray and Richard Keyes about their thoughts on VAR, so we'll put them clips up for you to see what they thought, they think about it, but for us I mean do you think, we're trying to move away from talking about when football returns, but when football does return, yeah, and it looks like it might be June 12th, do you think the VAR changes will be implemented then or do you think they'll wait for next season, because what they've said is obviously refereeing. Is going to the screen and using that a bit more? So do you think it'll be when we come back or if it's a new season? I think it'll be a new season, I can't. I mean they've already changed in certain things, you know, grounds and all the rest of it, I think doing that would be going on too far. mor wir yn ddwych, mae'n ddydd yn ei wrthyn, ac mae'n ddweud bod yn digwydd ymellodd. Mae'r ddwch, mae'n ddwych, mae'n ddweud bod yn ddweud bod yn cerddiannol, yn y llunio, mae'n ddweud i'r siwr yng nghylch a'r cefn, yna ddigwydd cymhir hynny, eu flwg, a dyna'n defnyddio ar whyfodol, fy mod i'r yn troi ymlaes. Er lle mae'r dduylu ddwy'n ymmerdd y spain, efallai rydyn ni'n defnyddio gyd. Ac ti, that would get them into some good work and bonuses. But in terms of obviously, things like the offside trap and things like that, I dont think, that's their rules and the big rules. So I can't really see that happening yet. Well the big things were well I go back to the screen and put the rule changes were obviously the offside they're going to look at and to talk about the Wenga rule coming in. a gwnaeth Follow mewn hyn yn y peynon a'r ffeithio yn gwah间. Rydych chi'n meddod yn meddod, yw'r feithio yn meddod, os y gallun ffasg ffaith yw'r olygu i'r llun ffasg wath i'r ddechrau, mae'n meddod i'r ffaith i'r ffaith oSi, dwi'n meddod. Bydd hyn yn hyn gyfeithio y ffeithio yn ei hyn ymddangos, yn ychyn gweithio yn ymddangos yma. A bydd yna eu lefais yn ffosgrifennol ac hynny mae'n meddod yr argynfyrdd. Dyna'r ddweud o'r ddechrau, ond mae'n ddweud, ond mae'n gweithio'r cyrraedd, ond mae'n ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Dyna'r ddweud eich bod yn fwy o'r ddweud, mae'n ddweud, fel rhai sydd wedi'i gweithio'r ddweud yn fawr, mae'n ddweud yn gyfleoedd o'r ddweud. Rwy'n dweud, mae'n ddweud, oedd yn amlwg eu ddweud o'r ffinoffi, o'r ffilm yn Gwylch Llywodraeth, If you're the referee, give yourself the time to go and look at your decision and then maybe have a conversation with that person if you want because ultimately you're on the pitch, you're there to referee the game he's there supposedly to give you another pair of eyes so if there's an elbow in someone's face off the ball or something like that or you might not see it on trip on someone going and look at it, then what looks like a trip wait till you see it gives you clarification so I think you're right it could get them into good practises y head of when fans are back in the stadium because at times it become a bit tiresome, didn't it, not knowing what was going on? Yeah, we've obviously spoke about this a lot, we spoke about this last season and what we thought was going to happen. We were hoping that they didn't use the screening a lot and we hoped it would allow the game to flow. I just don't think they've got that happy medium. I think it's funny you've just said that then, like you know, some of an elbow in them in the face. I think if the guy upstairs sees someone throwing an elbow or a punch and says he's just throwing a punch, then you can go. Red card mate, he's just seen you throw a punch. I don't think you have to review that. I think if some of the more petty things, or we would say think as petty things, don't need to be reviewed. But then again, you know, we had the one of Brighton where maybe you've asked me last season, because I don't remember the one we got, nothing but VVAR, we got a penalty against Fulham, I want to say, last season. Dominic Arvillun was barged over and I think Sigarton missed it, didn't he? Yeah, yeah. But the line didn't give it, and the referee had seen it, but the line didn't give it. So to me, that's the way I was picturing that, that's how it would work. But then you go to the Brighton one, where the referee sees it, and even after the game he said, I don't know if I would have given that. I think that one is where, if he's so adamant, like if he's so adamant and thinks, well, I saw it, but I'll go double check it, then I think that's when you use the screen. The one we had Jeri Mina when he had the one they sell out, Westam, the handball against Tottenham, I think that needs to be checked. Things like Chelsea and Tottenham, you know, the stamp by Lo Kelso, and things like that, you know, big decisions that referees, I've said this before, you know, when games I've seen referees, one of the last games, I think it might have sold onto Newcastle, it might have been, I think. The referee's gone and used the screen, used it brilliantly, but then later on in the game there was an opportunity for him to go and use the screen, he didn't, and even though I think the decision might have still been the same, he broke criticism on himself because he was using it at times and then other times, no. And I think if I was a referee, I'd want to make sure that I was consistent in using it, so if you're up in the box and you say to me, that's a penalty, I'd say right, I'm going to have a look, and I don't know if it, look at it, bang, bang, go ped, you're right, it's a penalty, or, because again, I'll bring it back to an Everton perspective. Dominic Calvert-Lewins' winner against Manchester United, you know, he looks at egos and looks at that at the referee and looks at it properly, I think we get the win. So do you think that in terms of that then, that maybe the Premier League bringing a rule, a say rule, or a recommendation, that next season, any major decisions, the referee must consult the screen. And then we start with the high bar, and then we start, as we get the confidence of the, it sounds like the lockdown this doesn't it, as we get the confidence of the fans back, and the trust amongst the work and practices of how we do things, that we start less using it, or do you think we keep that up all the time and just have that as we use it, because you look at somewhere like Germany, and you'll see this soon, because the back of weeks at the, is that when there's a major decision, the guy just trots over it, and you think a baric, it only takes a minute, it only takes a minute to just have a look at something again, they trots over to the screen, look at it, and then everyone goes, well he looked at it, and then it doesn't even matter what you think the decision is right or wrong, they've made the decision because they've seen it twice, one in split second, gut instinct, and then they get to see it again in slow motion and go, yeah that was right. Think about as a crat, a member of the crowd, as a fan, you see the referee doing that, like United, take that United goal for instance, take that United goal for instance, tell the loom scores, we're all celebrating, you're celebrating half because you're seeing the line, he's kind of talking and you're a bit like I don't know, but if he runs to the screen, and looks at it like that, and looks at it, and then goes no goal, then you kind of go, he's seen something then, the referee's seen something then, fair enough, you feel a little bit more confident in the referee, just a little bit, we can argue whether he was right or wrong afterwards, but you feel a little bit more like he's the referee on the pit, he's made the decision, not someone else is saying to him, if he goes to the screen, looks and goes, yeah, it was John Moss I think wasn't it over, and goes yeah, you know what, you're right, yeah I agree, he was offside, you're right, that's not a goal. You'd have to go, all right with the referee, he's seen it, he hasn't just gone, or I'll get it, or he hasn't just allowed someone to tell him, because the conflict comes when you've got someone in Stockley Park looking at it, and someone refereeing a gooders in Amfield, Old Trafford, wherever, and he mightn't have the same opinion as him, and that's where the problem is, he's got the, he's on the pit and can make that decision, John Moss or Martin Atkinson or whoever it is sat in Stockley Park doesn't blow the whistle and go, that's a goal, that isn't a goal, do you know what I mean, so therefore the referee looks at it and goes, I agree with you, that's offside, or that's foul, or that's a red card, then we have to take that as fans because we have to take that anyway. What you're essentially doing is you're splitting, what they have been doing is splitting the referee's responsibility, and basically saying the guy in Stockley Park is called exactly the same amount of responsibility as the guy, well he adds because he's over, he's got more. Because he overreals them, penalty for us are bright and he overreals them, whereas what he should have done is, and I really like the way they do it in rugby union in the five, six nations, shut me eight there, the six nations is, the guy calls them, says you want to have a look at this, they look at him in real time while it's on the screen, they talk you through it, if you're watching it. I don't know what the in-state of the experience is like, but when you watch it on TV, he's talking to him, he's using very precise language as well. I think that's the most interesting thing is to use language that doesn't confuse anybody, he sticks a shape in ways of saying, it's just like, is that a try in your opinion? I agree or I don't agree, I think they've both got to agree because he's the breath, he's the video breath, and it's so easy, I know it does take a little bit more time, but I remember watching it, I think it was two years ago, and I think England scored a try in the last minute of a game or something like that. And if it was given, they would win the whole shebang, and they could not agree whether the ball had been touched down or whether it touched someone's leg, and they could not agree, it's as simple as that, they could not agree whether the ball had been put down, so therefore it could not be given, because no angle showed and in real time you couldn't see. So you just said it's not a try, and the opposition team ended up winning the whole thing? Well that's what might have happened with Calvert Loom, they should have been able to have that discussion, if they can't agree, if the referee's gone, no I don't agree, and he's gone, well you just go with the goal because I can only rule it out if it proves something, the same with a penalty, a penalty you have to be 100%. The problem is, the two things are, one, I think the thing that didn't do anyone any favours was Liverpool 2, West Brom 3 at Anfield near Fico a few years ago when they kept going to the screen and it was taking ages, I think it was seven minutes between two goals by looking at stuff, that didn't help anyone so people cast out on it then. And I think from that everything's unravelled so people don't want to, the other thing is you don't need to go to the screen for every single decision, it'll only be big decisions, and it'll be game changing decisions which allegedly is supposed to be what it is, but they've got quicker at doing it, so you might get three decisions in a game where if you score a goal and there are egos to the fella in the thing while you're all celebrating, any problems and egos no, no problems, it's a goal, you only have to go and look, but if egos you might want to look at that, you go and look at it and the story, I think it'll quicken it up, I personally think that. I think VAR has come in, whether we like it or not, we want it to influence things, we've said before, goal line technology is infinite, it gives you that decision, it's fine, it gives you it, did they cross the line yes or no, great, took away that argument, I think VAR has been brought in to help the game, this is what the guest thought. Look, it's not going away, in my view it should never ever have been introduced, it has added nothing, it's the same with a piece of equipment when you're analysing football, Andy would always say there's no point giving me that because what does it add, nothing, nothing, if it adds something, fine, VAR has added nothing, it's destroyed and is destructive and it is there largely for that purpose, it is not there, can't, maybe one, Arsenal got one at Manchester United, I can't think of too many occasions when we've said, good job we had VAR today because that might not have been allowed, but I think the price we've paid for it has been too great and I always said this, my view on goal line technology was consistent, I didn't want it, not because I didn't think it might occasionally help, might occasionally help, I didn't want it because I knew it was the thin end of the wedge, that the minute we got it people would start saying let's have cameras now for offside and frigate years, we've only just started with VAR, which phase are we going to be arguing about soon, how far back do we take it are we going to be arguing about soon and I don't think the game, I don't think that's not the game I want, I love watching championship football because it's pure, it's clean and a goal scored and people celebrate and crowds are enjoying it immediately, not waiting, what's happened there, if you're in a stadium it's hopeless you've no idea Everton, so the last game I was at a Goodison was the Man United game, Dominic Halvert-Lewin scores in the 93rd minute, it's essentially the winner, by the way it is, exactly so we're celebrating and you're looking and going well we can't really celebrate because the referee's having a chat here You know what Ritted, if he'd gone to the screen and looked at it and gone okay for me, I thought it was a goal because he couldn't see the ball, his body showed he couldn't see the ball because he moved Exactly so, but if the referee would have looked at it and then made his decision himself, had he gone okay, wouldn't they have liked it, no, but at what stage, how is someone telling him and he's not got any influence on that decision, it's bizarre, is that just them giving responsibility away, do you think? Totally, this and whether they will never admit it, but if I'm Martin Atkinson and the lad's name from Australia escapes me at the minute but the boy they brought from Australia and he's only done BAR at the minute, you're not overturning decisions I've made, you're not making me look a mug And so it depends who's on the pitch and it depends who's in that bunker and look, it's not going on but I wish we'd never started with it, we didn't need it, it's added nothing, for me it's all negative and that's not why I watch football matches, I want to be entertained and enjoy it Somebody scores a goal, great, alright, onside, yeah fine, no reason to decide that, get on with it, but you lad's there on the, where were you, Gladys Street, I don't know, you're in the posh seats now? No, the wood, the wood still wouldn't So, but that's it, we've beaten Manchester United, no we haven't, are you sure? No, well maybe That's exactly it, I mean that's exactly it, just on, just finally on that, do you think it would help if the BAR people weren't referees who were still refereeing in the Premier League were almost independent or do you think it doesn't make any decisions? Yeah, I would prefer to see, I would prefer to see people have done the game, you don't need to be a referee to be sitting in there, yeah I would prefer to see people that have retired that have recently left the game, there are people, there are good examples of people sitting on their backside, Dean, according to Mike Riley, quotes, it's been not good enough to work in BAR, well how good do you need to be to sit and watch your monitor, I mean it's jobs for the boys by and large, but we have to accept it's here and sadly, I think that Blatter was right, I would rather have people behind the goal and keep it a game that's occasionally going to let you down but give you something to talk about and reward you for the money you've spent, you're going to see goals today, not see technology disallow goals Fair enough, fair enough And do you think BAR's gone in this season in terms of certainly from the Premier League because obviously that's what you cover and do you think we've used it correctly and do you think a lot of the criticism would have been alleviated had referees just used the monitor at the side of the pitch more? Right, first and foremost, I don't think we needed it Okay Right, I think it's changed the game fundamentally from the game we all fell in love with and I'm not sure we'll ever get it back to what it was and it's true sense, we're now going to be punctuated with loads of stoppages and a football match where we wait and a game that should flow and used to flow continuously It's never been used properly, no, we've batted at that here, Richard and Kees and I have talked about that continuously, the only country in the world that doesn't allow their officials to go to a monitor and make their own decision is the English Premier League How can that be right? How can that possibly be right that a referee sitting in Stockley Park in London watching Everton Ville of a Bull at Anfield of Goodison makes a decision on a matter of fact or an opinion, sorry, on a matter of opinion as to whether it's a penalty or not? That can't be right The only man who should have an opinion is a referee and his linesman, you know, if it's a penalty, was it inside or out, the penalty area fine, that's a matter of fact, was it inside or out? Is he offside? That's a matter of fact, but that's another one that's an absolute shambles To be disen diverse goals for two millimeters, three millimeters, four millimeters offside, I'm sorry, that's destroying the game in my opinion I don't care what they say about well it's a fact if he's offside he's offside, no, offside although it is black and white was never black and white. You always got something and didn't get something Now they're saying well you're always getting it, no you don't. We're seeing unbelievable goals disallowed for a tonial, for an armpit. I've seen more goals disallowed because somebody's armpit was offside this season than any other part of his body. It's a shambl. So I know it's here to stay, so we have to accept that we've got it. So if we've got it then we have to use it properly. I don't think Mike Riley has come out of the smelling of roses at all. I think he's made a complete mess of it so far and if we're going to use it which we are and if we're stuck with it which we are then at least let's use it properly, let's use it the same way that every other country in the world uses it. Why be alone voice? We can't have referees not going to monitors in Premier League and then when they go and referee in Europe going to monitors? It doesn't make sense. signature is here. We're going to have to then use it properly. Andy, thank you so much. OK. Well, we know what Kir's opinion has been from. Does he call it the VR? But it is the stayers, listen. Is this on? There's people of a certain age who obviously have no interest in this kind of thing I'm not saying that's the wrong way Fel ei diwethaeth ei wneud… Tyn ni'n mynd i ddod yn gwinellio'r gennych. Fel y gallwn i'r fan yw'r amddiffon ddydylu. Felly bydd ei ddim yn bod yn yr hanes, oherwydd mae gennych chi i fel y�d. Mae beth… Mae gennych chi i ddweud i ddweud itiol, mae gennych chi i ddweud i ddweud itif i gael. Ond efallai nad o'n ddweud— mae'n gweithio ydw i ddweud i ddweud i oed i ddweudnau. If we're going to get it so right, then let's make the offside rule so it's the other way round, this finger rule that I really like. Which means that any part of you is online, is onside or onside. And I like that. It gives the advantage back to the strike hit. I think at the moment, it's not clear. Because after time, you're getting given offside. And it's not of any, not anything that the defenders have done brilliantly. Mae hyn sy'n ddod. Y ddechrau'r adwydd o'u clywed. Yna mae'n ddiddordeb. Mae'n llwyddiant yn ei ddidd, ond dyna eu chan i chi. Mae'n gwybod eich ddesgol neu chan i chi. Felly nowa, mae'r ddysgu'n ddiddor o'r ddiddor. Mae'n ddiddor i chi. Mae'n ladechawd, mae'n ddiddor i chi. Mae fyw o'r ddiddor i chi. Mae'n ddiddor i chi. Mae mam wym elu. Mae'n ddiddor i chi. Mae'n ddiddor i chi unig neu mynd i chi. Ac oedd yn ffordd rwy'n culte. Er bod dwi'n tot y mynedd fray." Fi'n cael ei llachol iawn. Felly mae'n gael ei ffyrdd i chi. Gael ei ffan o'r bobl. Fi'n gael ei ffan o'r bobl, mae'n ffyrdd i'r bobl. Mae wedi ffyrdd yr athyn yn hynny am yr agynnal. Mae'n yn ymeth o ffordd ti, mae'n meddorol yma. A werthio am y cwrsau. gweithio, cynnwys i chi'n ddyn nhw er gweithio. Cyngor yn gweithio y barion nad oedd na'n gallu cyfan hynny. Yna, neu'r emwol yn ymwyng honno mae'n amlwg i chi'n ddyn nhw, yna dwi'n meddwl digwydd iddyn nhw. Mae'n gweithio atod o'r gyfrifiad. Mae oedd nid yn rhan o gyfrifiad. Sil Store ynCK, a phobl yn meddwl. Mae'r cyfrifiad o'r cyfrifiad. Mae'n meddwl wedi'u meddwl, ac mae'n meddwl bydd. Roedd nid yn y ddweud hynny, ddweud dangos gyda'i gwybod allan o brif. Sfrifddai'n ddim yn meddwl i gynnydd yw half ar half gyda. A dyna'r ystyried bod yn ddodol, ac mae'r broses yw ddodol sy'n ddodol allan a'r peth yn dangos dda i'r rhan o'r system. I mor diodd pan yn ymgyrch – dyna'r reisett. Wrth i amser, yna'r oedd yn ymgyrch. Ac yna'r oedd yn ddodol gan go. Oedden nhw yw oedd yma, O'r fynd o'r prosecution o'r Jason Bond yna? Ond efo'r eistedd y sefydliad yn cael ei fod yn yr bwysig, gan fighor am lleiwyr yr eich fath amfer o bach. Mae'r rwyf yn dod yn gywm yn sgol o'r drama. Felly, mae chi wedi gwneud yn gweithio'r ystafell a'r ffarswchio hynny? A os yw'r ddweud y'r ffordd. Felly, mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'r ystafell. Beth yn cael ei fod yn gweithio mor ffarswchio'r broses Indonesian? Yn ei fod yn ffarswchio'r ystafell, Erdych yn cael gweld i'r cyfrannu yma yng nghwyl yn y deillodd yn cyfrannu chefynol ac, fyn y cyfrannu hefyd yn fath o'r prynnod, trwy'n gwybod y newyddach yn!, dyna'r cyfrannu hefyd yn teimlo, a'r cyfrannu hefyd yn mynd i'r cyfrannu hefyd ac bwyd e'n mynd i'r cyfrannu hefyd, ac efallai ar y mynd i'r cyfrannu hefyd, ac mae'n ddigwydd i'n fath o'r cyfrannu hefyd. Rydyn na'n ddwy'n defnyddai'r cyfrannu hefyd. Mae'n ddifwng chi'n gweld i fewn o'r ffordd. So gyd yna, mae'n ddweud yw'r ffordd yn bach ac mae'n ddweud yw'r amsigol. A dyma'n ddweud, mae'n ddweud am ffandig y gweithio. Yr wych yn gweithio'r llwysau, mae'n gweithio'r grannu i'n ddechreu. Yn y gallwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio, mae'n ddweud i'n gweithio'n gweithio, mae'n ddweud i'n gweithio'n gweithio, alwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio,