 Thank you everyone for coming. I know it's the end of the day. I know it's the end of a big week But we're all really excited. We got a great panel here for you, and I'm super excited to kick it off So my name is Anna. I currently lead community programs on the ecosystem team at the cello foundation and I was previously at maker foundation and I'm gonna first give you a little bit of a background for how I Ended up in this space and how I kind of started thinking about this this panel and this idea and why I became really fascinated with the topic of Ecosystem growth and funding ecosystem specifically So I want to give you an example like working for Nobody works for Ethereum and in the same way nobody works for cello But a lot of us work on ecosystem and it doesn't mean that there aren't people working for it but there's people working for different entities that are funding ecosystem growth and ecosystem development and watching the Ecosystem maker first being bootstrapped by maker foundation and then decentralizing to be entirely managed by the Dell I started thinking about how do we think about different Levers that we have to leverage ecosystem growth at a foundation the primary lever that we have is grants but in and usually they are coordinated by a Pretty centralized group of people but at a Dell it can be Managed by a governance community you can tap into on chain funding and then you can also have various new methods of ecosystem growth like Dell to Dell swaps and other various tooling. So I want to give first Everyone a chance to give an introduction starting with one and maybe you can tell a little bit of a background for how you've seen this happen maker Yeah, thank you Anna. I'm Kwan from the sustainable ecosystem scaling core unit at make it out. I joined maker right before the foundation started to dissolve so Yeah, it was very very chaotic and extremely interesting and since then I've been pretty much working on scaling the ecosystem We used to do a lot of different things in the beginning We're very a team that was very that different So very The skills were very were very mixed and that was extremely interesting and then through the last year and a half or so We've been like specializing and now we are We're on building the like operational tools for decentralized workforce then legal resilience and and finally what we call governance design because we haven't found a better name yet, but Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing for the last year So very much looking forward to to speaking here with these great people. Thank you and kicking off to Abby Hi, my name is Abby. My role now is the head of community governance at radical So for those who don't know radical We basically build decentralized collaboration tools and infrastructure for people building decentralized technologies and so But we really consider ourselves Even more so than a crypto project. We consider ourselves more so a free and open source project and so my view on ecosystem scaling definitely comes from the concept of like ecosystem in open source projects and communities and You realize that in like web three everything's open source and so inherently, you know We're actually building open source ecosystems and communities and so it's been over the last couple of years there Stewarding governance and working on community. I think that it's all been about like Combining our crypto community and ecosystem learnings and what it means to scale a crypto ecosystem with what does it mean to scale? like an open source project in an open source ecosystem, so and I think the difference there is how do we progressively decentralized to Support the emergence and autonomy of an open source ecosystem and I think my focus has been on like optimistically designing new futures in which Decentralized technologies can better support the coordination and growth of open source ecosystems and the resilience of open source ecosystems so So yeah, so right now how we're acting on that and kind of what we're trying to do in practice is One of my main projects right now is helping lead the our transition to the Dow Which means a lot of things but basically means progressively Decentralizing the project from where we were prior which was basically like a venture-funded startup to a foundation with You know a token governed Dow to now the next stage Which is you know dissolving aspects of the radical foundation and transitioning those responsibilities to an autonomous Decentralized entity that lives within the Dow is funded via the Dow and acts as a participant within the Dow Among other orgs that will slowly emerge over time. So Yeah, in that process. We're thinking a lot about what it means to not only scale an ecosystem but support an ecosystem that's scaling and what foundations do you need to put in place to You know kind of actually support growth and resilience throughout a progressive decentralization or transition And so we excited to chat about that today Yeah, and progressive decentralization is the reason that I'm so excited to be sharing the stage with y'all because I feel like we are We've been at different stages of this and we've seen this through the ecosystem perspective But Alp, I really want to hear your background and how do you think about ecosystem? Yeah, thank you. Hey guys It's Alp. I started my journey like as an entrepreneur Let's say like a couple of years back with a web to start up working on like agriculture and like food technologies Then I started to participate in circular economies researches in United Nations and European Union under some organizations there and Worked a lot on the ground and try to understand actually what we could do to improve the lives of people in developing countries more Then I joined first with Gitscoin then I started with Primedow then now I'm doing something called inverter network Which is we're trying to learn the traditional know-how from international organizations like United Nations and European Union which they have something called data portal and Where they receive like all the applications like grant applications and they pay milestone-based funding to these organizations and like Individuals trying to empower them trying to teach them with mentors and program managers such as like ourselves in the end of the day And now we're trying to understand basically how we can design an ecosystem where the whole empowerment of the individuals can affect the coordination Trueouts can generate this crypto network effects that can improve our Basically the games that we play you know with economical senses. I'm excited to share this stage with all of you to be honest Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and from my own background I actually also started within the maker ecosystem and the reason I'm so interested in funding mechanisms is because I myself Originally started in web 3 as a beneficiary of a grant from what we then called community development the maker foundation and that was really a Program to incubate the next generation of people that will eventually take over a lot of the functions and be able to manage maker protocol through the Dow and so through through that experience and I learned I learned so much because that was such a pivotal time in our Well for maker but also for the entire ecosystem because maker I think was one of the first and really big projects to do that kind of transition and then going to sell a foundation I So I saw the same thing happening, but a lot earlier on and I Kind of had this I had the front row seat to seeing how to make this is the ecosystem scaling sustainable You really have to encourage and you have to design for intentionally for people to be able to have this independent thinking to be able to decide on what things are meaningful for the ecosystem an independent process which has to do with Like how do you apply for grants? How do you access funding in a Dow? This has to do with a lot of core units Which is a framework that will jump into next and then also independent sources of funding because ultimately having funding at your disposal is what allows you to have agency and If you have agency then you can really execute on the things that are really meaningful for your ecosystem But to jump into what ecosystem development really means I want to ask this to each one of you because what I learned going from protocol Like maker to a project like sello, which is a layer one is that a layer one your ecosystem is really dependent on your application layer and on your Projects and companies that are developing in your ecosystem and also of course like your community and your users and your advocates and lots of other Stakeholders, but primarily it's about developing an application layer, but what is ecosystem development mean at a project like maker Yeah, I like what Abby said, but I don't think that That governance should be an afterthought ever You really need to work on the Supporting mechanisms and structures and all these frameworks that will allow you to scale properly. Otherwise you end up with this type of Yeah, people screaming at each other I don't know So pretty much it's like you have this bricked version of governance that doesn't allow you to to keep going and looking forward and And you end up with a mess I Can I can speak a bit more about maker if you guys talk about the challenges Why why it feels like We'll get to why it feels like running into a brick wall coordinating governance. Yeah, so to just give you the very quick overview The way we organize it in the beginning was very Optimistic if you'd like and that's why right now. I'm a bit red cent about any any type of Optimistic kind of grant or or funding mechanism and What we did is that anyone can come and permission permissionlessly start a core unit and get funding and it is very very hard for If they're no structure there to actually report on progress on milestones on on what's happening. What's there to be achieved? You end up with Many delegates that have never run a company Trying to judge a topic that they might not understand and there's no auditor or auditing function within this so you end up with a mess and That's a bit what we're trying to work on nowadays through maker governance and governance design Nice So yeah, I think that in the case of radical and maybe more generally like open source ecosystems I think that there's like different layers of Ecosystem development, right? So I think that there's like ecosystem scale which is related to Increasing the number of participants whether that be like users contributors Maintainers whatever you'd like and that's kind of also community, right, which is like building Obviously for an open source project. That's your maintainers and your contributors and being able to grow your contributors is a Really important part of ecosystem development and then there's resilience, which I think And I would also say what interplays with that is like diversity So like resilience and diversity so what you're saying is like having a really strong Diverse application layer a network Ecosystem is really important for like a layer one. It actually goes the same I think for like open source infrastructure in which you want to be able to have a More diverse client ecosystem or at least like technical ecosystem To ensure the project's like longer-term resilience and so I think that that's like a really Important part and is why like things like grants and RFPs and bounties are really great because Basically, you're growing the number of people who are working on the project and you're also increasing the diversity of the project so So that's one and then I think that there's this other caught like dimension of development, which is like I Guess it's kind of like developing the ecosystem. You know what I mean, which is like not just having a bunch of people but actually Having kind of more of an idea of how you're growing people in an ecosystem So like what you were saying like how you know grants were meant to empower new people to take over leadership roles I think that this is like an incredibly important point of ecosystem, which is like ecosystem development Which is not just like bringing people in and then just like having them there It's like bringing them in and then developing them and like helping them support and empowering them and growing them into Leadership positions and just becoming like long-term Participants and I actually think that this is like low-key the most important and hardest one to do which is like how do you get people To stick around how do you create longer-term incentives? And how do you embed like longer-term commitment because often this is what's actually necessary to? Kind of like realize all of these Ecosystem visions and so I think that all of those are yeah pretty hard to do they all interplay with each other but I think There's a lot of ways to kind of like stimulate each type of development. So yeah, it almost seems that we We had all the tools and smart contracts and to make it very Programmatic and we just copied what we've seen from from companies or startups and we said, okay, we'll run with this So I think there's a huge miss opportunity there that that we're not exploring I'm like kind of I'm like kind of pessimistic on just programming incentives because I don't think that it often Introduces or encourages that correct behavior But it is true is that we do have kind of we have different tools and we should be experimenting with like how those tools Look like in the long term. I mean we kind of are with like tokens, right? Like that's basically like a long-term incentive mechanism that we're trying to experiment and build governance around But yeah, we're definitely like applying the corporate form like way too much And I think it's just us trying to like process a new design space and like also trying to make things work at the same time You know well, I think this has to do with Like we all like to talk about onboarding But what what are we actually onboarding into and I working at maker? I really saw this very clearly I think there's the onboarding into the technical protocol And then there's onboarding into social protocol and the social protocol is what's really difficult because that's like that's at the Core of how do we coordinate with each other? Like we can have all of the tech stack in the world, but how do we actually Implement those things. How do we coordinate? How do we agree? How do we govern well together? Like the social protocol is the one that's much more. I think difficult to build And so I'll I think you have a really interesting perspective. That's external to like an ecosystem. It has more to do with Maybe like developing regional ecosystems, so I'd love to hear more about how you think about ecosystem Thank you Just to add really quick like the other day a friend of mine told me flow of capital is the flow of trust So when it comes to ecosystem design as well like to understand the contributor taxonomy and like kind of building the development projects in the Regions where it's required we really need to understand like the kind of requirements of the system We want to design on the Ecosystem side as well and like once we understand the system that we want to design them We can understand the goals that we want to achieve and in the meantime if you have the data sets To incentivize we can understand and like we can basically build on parameters on projects that we actually want to kind of Interject into that region. So for example, if you would have Specific development projects in some regions and you could actually have a database to basically see those milestones and deliverables that they need to do and also like we can incentivize understand the incentivization methods that have been used by Different protocols and different entities, whether they are decentralized organizations or traditional organizations I think we can also like kind of have a different perspective to the ecosystem design where the focus would be public goods plus empowerment of the local communities And I think like also make around like cello are very focused on the regional based ecosystem design, which I really enjoy so I Think like last year we were talking with you like you were kind of mentioning some ecosystem design perspective of yours in the local communities and economies It would be interesting to go into that level as well if you remember The whole grand programs in like in African regions and we could actually establish like a kind of block spaces for people to develop themselves and empower themselves Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, actually this ties in Into how like the next question that I wanted to go into which is like where are we coming from like? What is the past case scenario and like how did we used to think about ecosystem growth versus? How are we thinking about it now and what is to look forward to in the future? And when I got to sell a year almost a year and a half ago, the cell foundation was the only Entity that was thinking about ecosystem development and so foundation kind of like set a lot of the goals and like Regions and priorities for where we want to develop But now we have created a whole system of governance where people are able to tap into on chain Funding from the protocol and establish their own independent entities that are able to set their own priorities and their own goals So right now in the forum. There's actually several proposals for a latam regional Dow and for Africa regional Dow that will Access funding from the protocol and have this like have the benefit of the independent thinking which like They are actually based there like they are in touch with the local community They're able to make best decisions But then also will be able to set their own process for how they want to manage grants how they want to like Plan that entire ecosystem how they want to manage deliverables and also have the funding in their multi-sig to be able to act on those Things so if there's like a hackathon They want to sponsor regionally then they can and I think that is huge power and like tremendous Responsibility, but this is yeah, this has to do with where we came from and where we're going but Yeah, the next question was going to be for kind of talking about what was the past case scenario and where How how is it developing now at each of the other projects? You want me to start sure I can talk okay? I'll talk maybe about general previous state as I've seen and kind of what nuances of like our current state that I think are different so I think in like previous state at least not for like open source Ecosystems specifically because those are basically, you know like decentralized ecosystems and at their core I think that there was obviously like a much more like centralized approach to ecosystem development in general in which there is like a Directed force that's like kind of Yeah, just like creating the community and like running the community. I think of like I don't know if like notion is a really good example of this Previous projects that have like have been built on like creator communities in which there's kind of this like top-down directed force That's driving an ecosystem forth, right and it's very branded. It's like very Directed it's very structured often has its own hierarchies because ecosystem is being looked at as like a means of like growth, right and So yeah, I think that's like the previous state And so I think that like now what's different is that we have a lot more headless ecosystems, right like headless brands headless ecosystems in which people are Identifying with different ecosystems and communities without being explicitly tied to Itself like we're all part of the Ethereum community like I think about how I got into a theorem and it was through hackathon And I just started like hacking, right? I know it's I don't know that. I love it No, that's like a very og hacker with like growth green at like common stack and everything Before I found radical and I think that this aspect of community is something that again very much so Parallels like open-source ecosystems in which like for example like Russ is this like insane ecosystem, right? And but it's very headless in that there's like obviously because it's a language, right? It's like a bunch of people building this language and building things on top of it And other open-source ecosystems exhibit this trait as well. And so I feel like now We're seeing companies try to frame themselves as open-source ecosystems because they're building open-source software again They're also building Companies and projects, right? And I think now we're seeing this like mesh of two worlds in which this previous state of kind of like central top-down Community ecosystem growth and scaling and this like more decentralized emergent Headless ecosystem approach in crypto right now, and I think that that's kind of like why it's I think hard And people try to apply the corporate form because at the end of the day We're not building on entirely vault volunteer Volunteeristic voluntary altruistic volunteer base network. I think it's the word. You know what I'm trying to say We're you know, we're building the projects that have Actually like a lot of like long-term incentives and value networks attach to them yet We're building open-source ecosystems at the same time And I think that that's why it's so tough for us to try to like process like where to go And I think governance is actually the answer because that's a tooling that we can use to kind of figure it out But um, yeah, so I think that we're just like seeing this clash of like this top-down versus headless approach And I think it's really exciting to start embracing new forms of the headless ecosystem growth approach as we start looking forward Yeah, Juan, maybe you can tell us why governance is the answer Yeah, what we've noticed is that It's a I mean we kind of predicted that this was going to happen and maker scale to a size That it's hard to tell like the kind of contributors is some somewhere between 120 to 170 And this because again, it's it's decentralized So it's it's hard to tell but what we failed to build when we when we started is this These frameworks to to allow for mkr holders to direct value. So we went from a foundation very clear top-down And if you know we can argue about the benefits of its grants and how that worked for better and worse And then we went to this To this mechanism where you have a lot of core units and there's really no incentive to integrate or to collaborate So every core unit is we have a very flat hierarchy and there's no There's no way for mkr holders to push core units to work together or to integrate or to Yeah, to make things happen and to create value for the protocol So I think that's something we will see in the in the next couple of months Is we're going to see a trend that shifts from onboarding people which is bring as many plus you can to How do we build this coordination mechanisms to make sure that we can actually coordinate? So right now there's no tool that I'm aware of and if you're building something Please reach out to actually build consensus and make sure that we can create a decentralized strategy That involves the owner of the projects that are the ones holding the tokens. So Yeah, I might be diverging a bit too much But no, no, I think this is great and actually I think this is a great example of like a past state and Moving into a current state But can you give us an example of like what what what is a core unit and how did you? Because you really helped write the Mipset that established core units. So can you tell us a little bit more? about like what what core units were what what core units were meant to be and what the promise of core units was versus like Where it is now a year almost a year and a half later Yeah, so we we got inspired I think from from software a bit So we went to the highest abstraction and we say what we said, what do you need and every single project Organization anything it's it's work Which is what are we trying to get done? It's the workforce, which is who's contributing and it's the The incentives of the capital. So basically that's that that was it If you feel a meep 39 There you declare what your mission is and what you're trying to achieve for for maker the meep 40 is And a meep is a maker improvement proposal meep 40 is a budget. So I'm requesting this much money I'm going to hire all these people and Yeah, and then the meep 41 was the the facilitator, which is the kind of like the responsible person accountable to governance regarding this Regarding this process and I think everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. So we learned a lot from it We ended up with the Facilitator less core units We ended up with anonymous off-boarding. So of course is that we're not working out We ended up. I don't know app sizing and downsizing budgets. So it was extremely messy. We learned a lot And yeah, that's that's a bit that the Where we are today and if you have heard about the end game plan the end game plan, that's why it sounds so So crazy, but it's because we need to Make the I think we need to make the X the implicit complexity We need to make it explicit and we need to make sure that everyone understands otherwise you end up in this in these doubts where The the very strong personalities kind of like get away with everything and and the you can call them the nice people I guess as a euphemism End up like push aside. So so that's a bit we're trying to to work with right now the off-boarding proposal is really interesting and really really key and When I got to sell I realized that we have a way to tap into this pool of money At the protocol level and the on-chain funding But we actually have no off-boarding proposal to claw those funds back Whenever something goes wrong if something inevitably at one point does go wrong Because we are all still learning and we are still trying to understand like how to operate and how to operationalize this new paradigm Like we all can talk about the ideas behind it But then once you start to operationalize it you realize once the core units have been out in the wild for a year You realize all the things that have gone wrong I mean do you have any like parallels to core units at radical and how do you think about like how Independent entities can tap into that funding and yeah, if you've thought about on-boarding and off-boarding proposals. Wow, so much We took a lot of inspiration So again, we're currently like in the midst of this like transition, right? So we're currently designing the organizational framework that will absorb the responsibilities that currently Remain in the Foundation Council for directing coordinating and funding all core team development So our core units are technically called core teams, right? And so in that process We've kind of like scoped out like a new ecosystem design in which instead of envisioning the radical Dow Just funding one core team again in the essence of open source and decentralization We envision the Dow which is a community governed Treasury Funding different orgs which act as these like nested polycentric You know organizations that kind of resemble sub-dow is in the sense that they have their own governance processes They have their own memberships But they still require a certain trust level delegated from the Dow, right? And so in that process in these orgs then become responsible for being independent thinkers funders and have their own process within the Dow using Anna's framework About like that they all are then kind of trusted to allocate capital Within their mandate and so then they fund teams and so teams instead of making proposals directly to the Dow are making it to the Org themselves and the org is making the decision on how to onboard or off-board teams within their own like local jurisdiction if you will And so the reason that we did this is because again like radical success will be in how we deploy this Treasury in the long-term to fund the growth of the radical Ecosystem the growth in the resilience of the radical ecosystem, right? Like we're not a defy protocol You know, we're trying to build a self-sustaining community owned and operated open source project and so for us that means You know learning and taking learnings from DOWs about how we can like make it more effective to You know coordinate budgets and goals, so we're not just like negotiating like haircuts all the time You know is I think that that process has led us to this like more emergent Model that supports the autonomy of these orgs themselves and the governance processes of themselves So in terms of like onboarding and off-boarding that means that there needs to be like explicit like I said trust levels between the DOW the orgs and the teams and so there's actually like a lot of really going back to what you were saying about like designing like smart contracts and how we Can like be trying out new things instead of like corporate forms is that there's like a lot of really cool tools like being built by like no skills right now And with like the zodiac mods that allow, you know, like the debt like Dow the Dow is like a community governed Entity to delegate trust and revoke trust in really interesting ways So like one of those is like I forget what mod is called But like the guard mod I think in which a Dow can send funding to a multi-sig But then there could be a mod built into the safe that allows the community to revoke the funds from the multi-sig Overriding the the signatures on the multi-sig when you think about that That's a really powerful thing because we're able to Rebalance and redistribute the power of delegating and revoking trust among an organization and create more autonomous flows for that Which I think better supports the emergence of an ecosystem because you're not just having these like gatekeepers deciding Who's on boarded and who's not off-boarding? And so that's really important when you're trying to develop more headless brands in which people can be on boarding to the ecosystem and doing it in A way that's autonomous Meaning the power is distributed yet the community also has the power to kind of keep it in check And so these checks and balances I think are like incredibly incredibly important And that's I think our current challenge that I'm really excited to be diving into now Which is like how can we be encoding those rules that embed those checks and balances between the community the orgs themselves Which represent you could say the trusted actors in the ecosystem and then the ecosystem that those orgs are funding and then the general community of people who are participating and Supporting like the radical project so it's all about like kind of like looking all these different participants and Figuring out how to best distribute power and trust to support like the emergence of the ecosystem without just kind of doing this like whole like Spray and pray approach to just like know with no accountability or like no, you know mechanisms for Recourse so amazing That's super interesting and that's super important trust is super important But then also like I want to talk about process because I think both DAO's and like more centralized foundations really struggle with this because like we Can give a grant but then how do you ultimately like report on the success of that grant and how do you track? Milestones because same as an maker like a core unit or a facilitator can get money But then it's it's the facilitator sole responsibility or like the team's responsibility to then like see through how That team is allocating funding and like one you can talk about later more so like the challenges with that But I'll I know you're developing a lot of actual like tooling with the proposal inverter for how you can How you can go about like putting together a proposal Getting funding for the proposal tracking milestones and then reporting on those milestones So I'd love to hear your perspective on this. Thank you. That's perspective So I think like we have like this traditional again know how that has been working for the last 20 years like That has circulated around to two trillion dollars. I think globally United Nations World Bank EU they always fund milestone based funding They require proof of work as in like upload documentations. They assign you mentors and program managers And I think that's kind of what you touched upon as well Like it's kind of my silly like a mushroom network in a way if you would like to say Where you need to have Handholding in the culture and you need to make sure this hand holding has a cultural infrastructure that has been built upon, right? So that's what's really Interested me in the end of today with milestone and deliverable So if you could actually write a proposal and every we could separate the funders to ecosystem funders and verifying funders so ecosystem funders being Trying to incentivize the communities and individuals to build on top of their infrastructure and verifying funders being the subject matter experts who can like look at the projects and understand the Again requirements problems and what can be done and if you could coordinate that I think like we can get to a level of distrust layers Where ecosystem funders can trust verifying funders where verifying funders can verify the actual builders of that ecosystem? so That's kind of what we're trying to achieve with the motor network now We are building like this mechanism where you can write a proposal apply to any grant application like the funding through that all traditional organization funding apps as well like African grants program in Tanzania and then They will ask you additional questions according to their cultural infrastructure that they built upon may that be KYC or like a specific requirements about the contributors and builders and then It's basically milestone based funding where you have to upload the work You have to provide the feedback as a funder You have to provide the feedback and as a builder you have to provide the feedback so we can have this Feedback loops in the end of today. So just to give it an example Yeah, I like the mycelium networks. I think checks and balances should actually be reframed as like symbiotic relationships It's technically the same thing. I actually think we have more potential to build symbiosis between like participants in a system then like just checks and balances so like reframing the language and instead of applying like all of our like political corporate forms stuff to it, you know Yeah, and I agree that I think that eventually we need all the the tools to make it super easy for anyone and make sure that it's That is extremely easy and the guardrails are in place Um Yeah, I'm curious, you know if you're in terms of grants and if you're using any type of specific tools That you have liked or if you follow a more manual process person that maker is extremely manual like notion All the dals run on notion everything runs on notion pretty much How many times can we say notion in this panel? We've been talking with with different tools And yeah, looking forward to find one that that will actually work I think that's also an industry that will help us a lot in terms of tooling and and grants But I think we need to reach that point where it's almost permission less and there's almost no no one to Yeah, to verify it right eventually. I don't know use Kleros or something, but I hope we get there Yeah, and we've experimented with a few Like grants automation tooling I mean well first of all like yes We do actually use a notion pipeline to track grants and we we have an application that comes in like We have this whole process that we build out where like an application goes in it gets assigned like a few reviewers They like based on their area of expertise the way that we do grants is by vertical So like if there's like an NFT vertical or like I personally fund community and ecosystem or community and education Grants so like I would review that vertical and then we have like a whole process for moving that grant down the pipeline We in the future like we really wanted to experiment more with Like open decision-making and being able to post All those applications to like a public forum, but then the challenge with the foundation is we can't always disclose Like exact applications or like what people are the amounts that people are requesting for So some of the way that we've tried to solve this is one tool. We're gonna pilot is quest book or not quest book quest book Yes quest book is one of the no Is it okay great It's not an accounting software. That's not what I'm trying to say Quick books. Okay. Okay quest book quest book or a quest book And climate collective which is actually one of the first or I guess the second Independent entity that has gotten money from the protocol to specifically fund like climate and refi related projects They're gonna experiment with quest book as a way to do like more decentralized more open Grants process then the other way is like we just use get congrats as well And like we match we do matching rounds on get congrats like that to me is one of the Like best open source like open community participatory ways to do grants. That's external to an ecosystem And I think we're still learning. So yeah, if anyone is building grants tooling I want to give a shout out to our grants lead boredom who was actually someone who came through the community and now leads our Grants program. We're only in we just finished the first season starting up the second season now But their approach to grants is really cool And I think it's something that I'd like to see more in the space in which I don't think grants should just be this like single Singular like one-dimensional type of funding in that grants are an opportunity to again Like not only source more people and grow an ecosystem but to provide and develop people with an ecosystem and so What they're doing with like the grants program is actually trying to reframe it kind of as a little sub-dial build its own governance Processes have its own management that allow For people not only for other orgs within the radical DAO such as like the core development org Which is a core teams to direct work by submitting like RFPs or something, but to also Experiment and this is what they're gonna start doing now With how you can even decentralize the decision-making of the grants itself, right? Which I think is like another means of creating more autonomy in these funding sources Instead of it being kind of like our it's like not our foundation grants program, right? It's Boredom's grant program and Boredom is listening and kind of creating a symbiotic relationship with like the core teams themselves And so there's a lot of cool tools like for example, they're using Otter space badges, which are basically like these like non-transferable NFT badges to Create, you know, like spawn a membership model that exists within the DAO and can be recognized by the parent DAO But have its kind of own structure Integrate that with snapshot and now you have like a decentralized governance system That's like very very scoped to the participants in within that certain realm of the ecosystem And I think that that's going to be a really cool experiment And how can you again support the emergence of these kind of like independent funding streams that have their own mandate yet also You know create these trusted relationships so that like other orgs can kind of Check the power of the grants and the DAO has to kind of approve of like allocating funds And so I think that that will be like a really good Experiment moving forward and you know seeing what tooling can kind of support that type of organization. Yeah, totally and also I know that prime has done a lot of work on like prime rating and conviction voting as a way to also like separate signal from the Noise and understand which grants are like worthwhile funding. Can you tell us more about how you think about that? Yeah So basically the main concept is conviction model. So which would be again a trust layer So if you would to recognize specific grant programs and like be satisfied with their Approach to the grants Handholding the projects that they select and the the way that they actually Onboard them to their culture and their organization at a very high level So they can actually participate in their governance participate in the decision making process So once the conviction model works like when a grant program approves a grant and provides the feedback So How can they track the other grant programs in the ecosystem and see their feedback and like kind of generate this feedback loop on For individuals and also the projects that the individuals are working on So that's kind of my approach like we need more transparency in terms of like the grant funding We need more transparency in terms of like the the way that we build things together because we have this coordination Which it's a human coordination. We all know each other for a while. We've been working together for a while and like this kind of Accelerates us as well to a certain degree. We have a specific understanding of what we're building I mean to provide that to the newcomers to this ecosystem to our ecosystem and we kind of need to I feel like You know like build brick by brick and make sure that we have a solid infrastructure And onboard people to that In a way Yeah, totally and from the perspective of a contributor or from a perspective of someone who is maybe newer to the ecosystem Like do any of you have any like key takeaways or advice for how can someone get involved who wants to like grow an ecosystem? Either like at a protocol level or like open source ecosystem in general or or built tools for grant funding Anyone can jump in Yeah Now I find that I I want to touch a bit on the bull versus bear market situations and and it's crazy how When it's a bull market, you see a lot of I don't know doubts or contributors Popping up like mushrooms after rainy day But then when you move to the bear market everyone's panicking and then everyone's thinking about the The token holder so it's interesting this perspective of how you go back and forth Um, I was actually thinking about what Simona said about that not all the Organism needs to move at the same pace. And then how do you manage? Like how do you know when when it's time to cut that part to make sure that the whole survives to do not Yeah to not kill the whole thing because of of of one part and with that in mind It's I think it's it's a great time to to build and focus on providing value I think the the bear market is great for that. It definitely Cleans a lot of the of what Peter Pan was saying about the kumbaya daos So we'll we'll see what the what the real value is But but yeah, if you're a contributor and you want to join potentially find Yeah, an organization that you like that aligns with your values Start to provide value and eventually you I think you will be picked up right now We like to say we like to say that daos are our leader Leader fool instead of leader less But the truth is that I don't need everyone wants to be a leader. Maybe So some people really like the framework to and and be like Yeah being told what to do So we need to find those frameworks to make sure that we can On board not just the the giga brains and the and everyone that that can do that From that perspective, so I think that um I do think that now in the bear market, we're like laying the bricks We're laying the foundation for kind of the ecosystems to develop In the next cycle if you will And I actually think that there's a lot of projects that are currently navigating successions of power For the first time or maybe for the second time And that there's actually a lot of opportunity for ecosystem leadership to kind of shine It's hard though because I think actually how you get involved is different from data down from ecosystem to ecosystem And often I think Grants or kind of like trying to achieve some sort of like funding stream through An organization is like a great way, but there's something more deep there in which like finding An ecosystem in a community that you align with principles wise and trying to kind of like participate in That community for like an align yourself with that community So it's it's tough because I think that a lot of people like For example, like as we were trying to get like our grants program off and running There's a lot of people who like didn't know how to engage in the process And maybe we're like since we didn't understand how we really wanted to do grants A lot of people had expectations for how other people did grants And maybe we you know like miss a lot, you know didn't meet people's expectations And so I think it's tough, but I do think that there's like if I've seen like I the most Prime examples of ecosystem development in the radical ecosystem It's come from community members who just started like showing up and and being in the Forums and in the community and talking and asking questions Who then started answering questions for other people asking questions Who then started being you know, the people that you'd go to when you want to distribute power permissions or capital And while for us we're still kind of like learning about what our ecosystem growth should be As we also figure out all the other things with radical It's I think that what we're trying to do is like lean into those like more one-to-one like individual Like relationships of supporting people like growing into leaders within the community themselves and empowering Them as they emerge instead of again like gatekeeping it so And I think that that comes with like a lot of like I feel like my answers are more about like what we can do to support people coming into ecosystem better And it's like a lot of like like intentional program development You know of not just building an audience but building a community It's a lot of like thinking about grants more intentionally not just as distributions of capital but as Gateways into kind of like other means of development within a project And also kind of embracing more like ecosystem relationships. I think and kind of like partnerships just add really quick So basically I feel like also as a web tree free agent Let's say, you know like kind of product project agnostic person The most important thing to the new onboardees. I would say like first of all learn like to read a lot We have a lot of learning curves that you need to go through But the most important is mentorship like apprenticeship That's that's that's helped me a lot in web two web three in my life in general And I see like We have amazing leaders amazing people that actually cares about like what they're building their mission is How can we generate public goods how we can actually improve our society prosper our society And if you can find these people and like Just reach out to them and don't don't be even shy, you know Like I just ask them to mentor you because I think like many people that I know great leaders in this ecosystem They they would love to mentor newcomers and like teach them what they know and learned Because we learn as we teach and you teach as you learn, you know So just want that don't I wanted to circle back to Yeah, to the expectations and leadership It seems that the default or the first one out there is the gold standard for anything Which I think is extremely wrong an example is The delegates in maker though the first one just started the forum thread saying this is my platform And we had a call with them and that was it So now every delegate in pretty much the whole industry has the platform, which is just a forum thread And maybe a call introducing themselves to the community And delegates in this particular case could be so much more than that they could provide frameworks They could provide reports. They could provide so many more things and and over getting it's just this Oh, I'm voting this for this reason And this applies to almost everything. So try to think outside the box going back to ops point try to Provide value when you approach someone instead of give me something to do It's more like hey, I thought that this could be of use What do you think if you think it's horrible try to guide me in the in the right direction But it's extremely important to try to be proactive and and to help Your mentor or or you're to be mentored to to help you Otherwise, you just take a burden that that no one was to carry I think we've come full circle to Ecosystems being a mycelium network and all of us being mushrooms in the network and that dows imitate nature as Simona pointed out earlier in the week And with that we only have five more minutes So if you want to take a couple of questions or just say some closing remarks or Where can people find you all and connect with you after after dev con We can talk about where we connect and then I can hand my microphone off to anybody who has a question But yeah, you can follow radical radicals r.i.d. I see le On twitter and you'll probably see be seeing a lot on our forum radical.community about the transition I write discourse like this is my job now Discourse posts and so we have a lot of really cool ones that are kind of like outlining our transition and a lot of really cool stuff There that's happening in the open in the open and you can follow me at abbyabby underscore tick home t itc Umb because I also tweet about this a lot Awesome, um, you can reach out to inverts network and also alp er g in tr I got a haircut so the profile picture doesn't represent it But you can still find that Yeah, thank you. I'm zero x seven u4m, which is one just in lead speak Yeah, I have a very common name. So all the combinations were already taken Sorry, mom Mine's just an alexa k on twitter and telegram So anytime feel free to reach out and continue this conversation And I'm guessing that this is our cue to get off the stage. You have time for one question Yeah, totally Louise Hi, yeah You were mentioning about like these difference between symbiotic Relationships instead of check and balances and I would love to know like Could you expand a little bit more on that and how how would that look like? Uh, yeah, so I think that it's about, um I think wow, I say this word way too much But I think it's about resilience right and that like when you look at our natural world Actually, everything is built off of um, not really checks and balances like you I think that that's kind of more of like a competitive way to look at it Like when something spins out of control something checks it However, when you look at like natural symbiotic relationships, um, the difference is because check and balance is like constraining power and Kind of creating means of like limiting power where symbiosis is creating relationships that grow and that thrive and that like spawn And I think that that's kind of the difference in which I think symbiosis symbiotic relationships are often less of this like linear Check and balance and more of this like dynamic exponential growth At least from my limited research into microbiology Um, and I also think that but I do think that this concept of like thriving Versus constraining is the difference that I see in which um, when you think of an ecosystem you you see an ecosystem Not again, is this like um, I mean some people do again It goes back to like natural selection if like what you think about like kind of biology in general But I think newer takes on biology are looking at ecosystems as these like very diverse interconnected Networks um that are all building on each other and are all and I think we're now realizing the interdependencies Um, and I think that those interdependencies are not like a check and a balance They're kind of a dependency on each other to survive And so I think that that's a way more for me and more inspiring take on kind of how we can be building ecosystems in general Because if you're working on inter interdependencies instead of like one person checking versus the other, um I think that you can build more resilient ecosystems because we're focusing and it's like how we it's honestly something that we embody And I think in the ethereum space Off the bat, right is that we want to be Composable we want to be modular and we want to be supporting each other's ecosystems because together We're more resilient together. We are this like headless thing that is ethereum that is like web 3 And that's more of a symbiotic relationship than like a check and balance kind of like competitive thing So I think it's coming from like a personal opinion, but maybe that makes sense I think what makes sense to me is like it's switching the model from like one to many relationship Where it's like one person at the top having connections to many people to many to many Relationships and it's the bonds between the it's the bonds between the nodes in the network versus like one person towards many people Any more questions Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming and we're sticking around and happy end of dev con everyone Wow, thank you all for being the last panel