 Cool. Okay. Hi. Thanks, everyone. Yeah, so as Nina said, we're going to have three participants to the panel today. I'm going to be your moderator. My name is Laura Gaetano. I'm a designer and a developer. And as of recently, sorry, as of recently, I was leading the program RealSkull Summer of Code and working at Travis Foundation, where my focus was on diversity and inclusion in tech, but more specifically in open source. And I've got three panelists here with me today. I'm going to very briefly introduce them and then ask them to also introduce themselves in case I've forgotten anything. So starting with Frank Kaliček, who might not need an introduction, but I'll say it anyway. He's the founder of NextCloud and currently the managing director as well. Then we have Jessica Green, who is a developer at Ecosia. Is that how it's pronounced? Yeah. And also the organizer of Pi Ladies Berlin and of open source diversity. And finally, Prensia Sekuera, who is a Mozilla tech speaker, the maintainer of the Firefox DevTools debugger and a prototype fund fellow. So before we get started, I'll ask maybe all of you to briefly also introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about what your personal kind of perspective or basically why you're here on the panel today, talking about diversity and inclusion in open source. Frank, do you want to start? Sure. Yeah. First of all, thanks for having me here. It's a very important topic, I think, that we should actually cover more at conferences. And we have to work on to improve the current situation. My personal situation is that I'm an open source fan and developer for a long time, like 20 years. And actually something that I really, really liked at the very beginning, that it is an international movement that you have like people from all over the world, which are something I always liked. But of course, it doesn't mean that it's diverse as it should be. And we all know that it's of course dominated by white men, basically. And that's something that we have to improve, because I don't think anyone nowadays questions that a diverse team is a better team. So yeah, I'm happy to be here and to discuss this topic and maybe improve the current situation a little bit together. So thank you. I think it's very special for me to be here, because one year ago, I was also at the NextCloud conference, as some of you may remember. And that was because I had been contributing to NextCloud as part of the Rails Girls Summer of Code programme, because I was retraining to become a developer. And it's one year on, I can say I am still a developer. And it's going really well. And I think that foundation of being able to work on a product like NextCloud with the community that's surrounding it really helped in that journey. Yeah, I think everything else you said was pretty spun up. Awesome. Thank you. Hello, everyone. My name is Prinsia. And thank you for having me here, NextCloud. And thank you, Laura, for the introduction. So all that Laura mentioned is what I do in the evening. So, like, yeah, when I get free time, so all the things related to open source. So as a day job, I am a late engineer at Smart Helios, a company into health sector. And what is important to me is me being an underrepresented minority in tech. I have had so many difficulties to get into tech, to get into open source. And whenever I can, I like to offer my time to advocate for diversity and inclusion. So thank you for having me part of the panel. Awesome. Thank you. Maybe we could just start right away with kind of one big question, which is, like, what's the hardest part of becoming an open source contributor? And why, I guess, is it difficult? And maybe we could look at different perspectives. So starting with you maybe as a person from a marginalized group or several marginalized groups. Right. So one of the hardest problems of contributing to open source is time. And the other thing is the non-paid version of open source, right? So we all have to maintain our day jobs. And it also gets difficult if the company does not support open source or open source contributions in general. So the first criteria is time. Then I think I would jot it down to personal preference. So a person who wants to contribute to open source no matter will find time and get there. But the other difficulties come with being a woman, if you have a family, how you have to maintain other things which cater around to being this minority. The other things are also the vast selection of open source projects, the tech stack available there. So if you're a first time contributor, it can get overwhelming to find the right project to find the right issue to get into. So it's not easy. It's overwhelming. And I think it does need time to go through all the projects to really find what matches you. And then it's also about the community, right? So the community needs to welcome open source contributors. So the community needs to know where you stand. And if you're not comfortable, then the community needs to be welcoming enough to tell, okay, we welcome first time contributors. So there has to be a support network around this. So all of these things, when it's there, it's good to get started. But when it is missing, then it can get, it can be a big barrier for entry into open source. Yeah. I mean, everything you said, I think the only thing I would add on top is representation as well. I think what we see in some of the community groups is there's a lot more engagement for people when they see a project that is maybe run by someone who they can identify with. So I think that's something we are trying to achieve with the Berlin chapter of open source diversity with Jan, who spends a lot of his time on the project. We're really trying to highlight and emphasize the projects by people from underrepresented or marginalized groups, because I think that helps in general get more people into the topic of open source and see it as a possibility for themselves. Yeah. Good point. He also agrees you that I think time is probably a very important factor. So I mean, I was involved in a KDE project, which is one of the biggest open source projects like since 20 years. And but it was basically came out of Germany. And they are basically computer science students, men, of course, also. And I think over time, I and together with others tried to reach other areas. We organize conferences and other places of the planet to reach more people to become more diverse, but it become really clear that cultural differences. For example, in Germany, we are still in the good situation that we have that no university fees. And actually a lot of people can study. And also the study is usually not often allows that you have time for something else beside your study. And this is where a lot of the open source developers, this is why Europe or Germany is so strong and open source, because they actually have people who have time for that. And if you go to other places, I really, I had to learn this over time. It's really completely different. I mean, the US, for example, open source conference in the US, where I also go a lot, they're completely different. They don't have a lot of volunteers. It's completely business driven. Like conferences like FOSSTEM, for example, that don't exist like that in the US. And there are other places, of course, like in Asia, the FOSST Asia people doing a great job, by the way, or in India, where people definitely don't have any time to just do open source as a hobby. I mean, they have to fight to sustain their life. And for them, it's part of the education. So for them, basically, has to be part of education to have time to contribute to open source. So it's really different. But I think time is a very important factor. It's a luxury to be able to spend many, many hours a week on open source, non-paid open source. Yeah. So there's been a lot of very great points that you've all made. And I think, so there's a couple of things that I would like to kind of touch upon. So one is obviously time and the idea that maybe as a community or as an industry, we maybe need to be better about thinking about how we can perhaps fund open source work as well, or how we can implement open source work into our day-paid job so that it becomes a part of our work, and so that it's not kind of a hobby that we do on the side. I think that's really important. But since we're today at a community event, and since NextCloud is, I think, has been pretty great at kind of trying to bring in more people from underrepresented groups or trying to support them. I'd love to talk a little bit about the focus or the importance of a great community when it comes to inviting people from underrepresented groups. And so perhaps Jessica, since you were a contributor or started as a contributor last year, maybe you can talk a little bit about your experience and what that was like. And perhaps what things from the NextCloud community and from the Summer of Code project helped you to kind of feel welcomed and invited into the community. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I felt really nervous and intimidated when I first attended NextCloud Hack Week in Stuttgart, the first day walking in with two women who, one of which was my partner during Wales Girls Summer of Code, and there only being one other woman, which was Camilla, who was our mentor in the room, was intimidating. It took a little while to start to really feel part of the community. But what was really awesome is after that week or after a few days of the week, I really got to know more of the people that are involved in the community and did feel welcomed in that way. And I do feel like NextCloud, although maybe still not having the most diverse contributing group, is really putting that in priority. I'm sure you want to do more, but I think it's important to also highlight those motivations that are there. I think it's something that is really special about Rails Girls as a program itself, because when you're learning to program, I feel like there's an overwhelming amount of boot camps and scholarship schemes that you can apply for. I think something that I didn't even realize the value of Rails Girls Summer of Code was this opportunity to work on a product with other people, other people who were distributed all around Germany and further afield. This was definitely a huge advantage for when I had my first job, because it gave me the chance to be able to communicate with other people about my code, which you don't get if you're working on self-projects or you're working on a project maybe with three friends. So I think there is a lot of work to be done, but there's a lot of really people that find it important are willing to prioritize it and make space for more diverse contributors. I think this is something we all have to get used to, because it isn't an even playing field. The question around time isn't the same for everyone, like you were pointing out, if you're some sort of caregiver, which in a lot of societies, not all, but is predominantly for women, then it's not like having an hour or two hours every evening. Something I think that is an approachable way of doing it is something we'll also try to do with open source diversity in Berlin is have events where people can come and contribute. So it's like a time boxed thing where you know you're going to come for a day, but by the end of the day you'll have made a contribution. I think this is a really good way to get people into it, because you need that sense of achievement to engage with it. I think if the community is great, then you might keep coming, but you also need to kind of see the reward of what the work is you're paying in. Yeah, so kind of like low hanging fruit and kind of the possibility to contribute right away so that you get that reward, that feeling of being rewarded for your effort. So you talked a little bit also about representation and the fact that representation is important, and I'm wondering like did any of you, and this was also a question that I had for print here specifically, but did you have any mentors throughout your career, and particularly do you think that it's important to have mentors that are like you and kind of look like you, and that yeah, that are basically like role models for your career? Yeah, for sure I can tell that mentorship is very important, and I would not restrict the statement only to tech, right? So I think mentorship comes as a natural process. So as we grow, we have parents or immediate guardians as mentorship. They may not appear as mentors to us, but they are there to guide us, and this is very important for a kid or a child as the child is growing. It's a similar thing in tech or open source. So things can be very overwhelming given the size of the industry itself. So when I started into tech, I did have a mentor. So I come from India and I started working as a startup, and back then I had so much negative things to not join a startup because you wouldn't know which direction your career would go, but I was lucky enough to have landed here because it was a small team, and there was so much scope to learn, and the person, the CEO or the co-founder here was so nice and to have a guy to be telling me all the things that is necessary, what is good, how to write good code, or how to think, mainly have this problem-solving skills, or just talk about life, you know? And he also mentioned why it is important to have a goal in life, so that having a goal in life is very important so that it will help you to see the future yourself. So you go to a meet-up, you go to an event, having a goal in mind, always back of mind, lets you talk to the right people, helps you make the right connections, and then somehow it will let you connect the dots. So this part is really important, and similarly mentorship is also important, and for open source itself in 2017, I did my open source internship with Outreachy, and Outreachy is a paid, remote three month paid open source internship, and I think this was really great for me to get into open source itself. So in 2017, when I did this internship, I was not new to coding, I was not new to tech, but I was new to open source, so I was forever getting stuck about what projects I wanted to select, where do I make my first pull request, or whom do I reach out to, and this program came in handy, and it was good. So you also get a mentor during these three months, and the good thing is there is also the money here. And yeah, so this is like, I would say mentorship is really important, and after that, I volunteer my time wherever possible to mentor others if they want to get started with open source, or in my company, I have the privilege now to hire people, or to hire juniors specifically, and offer their mentorship. So this is also like, you know, using my privilege to offer mentorship, and my colleagues really like this. And we use open source for sure. So I also tell sometimes my colleagues complain, oh, okay, we use this library, and this library does not work. So the advice I give them is instead of complaining, or open up an issue, like, you know, just create an issue on GitHub, or even why not just create a pull request. So this is like, you know, the things what we can give back to the community. And in return, I think these are all things, it's like, you know, it's coming through mentorship, right? So I had this mentorship, I knew where, how I started, and now I'm just taking this mentorship forward. So, yeah, I think it's, it's very important. It helps you. Jessica, Frank, do you have any, yeah, any stories that you'd like to share also on the topic, or do you want to refer back to something that Prince has said? First of all, I think it's also good to acknowledge that like mentorship in itself is a skill. And not everybody, it's something you have to train also of like how to be a good mentor, how to listen to someone, how be able to give constructive feedback. And often, I think we take for granted that, yeah, of course, everyone can do this, they can all be a mentor. But I think that's something you also need training for. So I think it's really important if you're working in a company, or if this is something that you would like to give back to the community, that you kind of reach out, and it's fine to be like, I don't really know how to mentor someone. For example, for me, I recently was doing a feedback session for someone that was going to give a talk at one of our community events. And afterwards, my co-organizer said to me, you just gave her way too much feedback. She is not going to be able to process that, and the talk is on Tuesday. And I have to say it was true. I saw the talk at the event, which was only four days after this feedback. And unfortunately, she had tried to incorporate a lot of the points I had said, and I felt it was to the detriment. So I think this is something we're all working on as well. The other thing I wanted to say is because you asked about is it beneficial if your mentor is someone that is similar to yourself? I don't think that is true. I don't think that is a leading factor. Quite a few of the mentors that I've had in tech have been men, and they've really been able to support me. I think having safe spaces like Pi Ladies, where I can go and kind of connect with other women in tech is really important, because we do have a slightly different experience. But also some of the conversations that I have with men in tech, where we kind of discuss the differences in our experience, I think is super valuable as well. Yeah, that's a very good point. And maybe, yeah, Franky can add something to that. Yeah, I mean, of course, I completely agree that mentoring is super important. This is something that needs to happen more in all areas. But I think it might be especially hard or unusual in IT, because I mean, in IT there is, I feel that there is like in a core, there are a lot of people which is like, we have more introvert people probably, we have the more people in IT who don't really like to communicate too much. This is popular here. I mean, I don't know, I mean, like for example, conferences like that. I mean, for me personally, I worked like on IT things for, I don't know, 10 years or longer before I attended the first conference. And also like, okay, if I'm a little bit older than I am, I still remember a time before the internet. I mean, I did software development for many, many years before the internet. There was no desk, no chatting or video calling, there was no forum, there was no searching for something, it was sitting in front of a computer with a book and trying stuff out for your own. There was no mentor, there was only me as a nerd in the basement. And this is still the core of a lot of communities, this way of working. And of course, if you want to improve the situation, we need to communicate better, we need to bring more mentors and so on. But this might be a special challenge for IT to move forward here. I mean, do you think that as an industry, we put way too little focus and emphasis on other skills beyond code? Because I think that's maybe also a bit of an issue. Arguably not enough emphasis on skills outside of code. I think actually I've heard a lot of arguments against mentorship come from this, well, that's not how I learned because when I learned that it didn't exist. And I totally accept and recognize that that, but it was a different time period. I think now technology is moving a lot quicker. If people are starting in the industry later, I think it's not fair to be like, oh, you should have to like earn your right to be in here. I think it's only fair to say that we can help everyone have that like foot up. Not that I for a minute think that's what you're saying, but it's just often I hear this. Maybe I should clarify. I don't want to say that this is not how it should be. I just said this is how it was. And maybe also especially like for me or the people I knew at the time. But I mean, of course, as IT is also getting a lot bigger now and we have fun to be diverse and want to grow and attract more people. And we also have the tools nowadays, right? We have the communication tools to do it, which we should use. And also we have a way to make money with IT, which then enables conferences and we can then pay for travel to come together and so on. So this is just a lot of opportunities we have today and then we should use that. So I'm not going. I don't want to go back to the old times. Definitely not. I think it's also like a mindset as well. I do think that we don't value enough non-code skills. I think they're often just kind of assumed to be there in certain areas of development and in others. It's fine that they're not, which I think is another discussion of like how do we help people advance those skill sets as well? Because as you said, the industry does have a lot of people who feel more introverted, who feel that some of these non-code superpowers, as we call them at Pi Ladies, are something that they find very unapproachable or they don't know how to kind of develop those skills. I think we can help that a lot. And for example, another thing of you're saying, you know, how can we maybe reach out and help people contribute to open source? Well, if you're working in the company and you come across a situation like you were saying, where you see something in open source library that could be fixed, maybe even know how to do the fix. So you would just open a PR, grab a colleague who is a junior or someone else in the company and do it with them or support them to make that contribution. Because I think that will help them also get in that mindset of like, oh, I can actually fix this just because it's not an R-code base. Yeah. Did you, so Prince as a maintainer maybe of a project, do you have any things? So I guess I have two questions. Like one is kind of going back to the idea of code versus non-code contributions. Do you notice that you have more contributions that are specifically code and less contributions that are, I don't know, design or documentation or marketing, those types of contributions? So that's, I guess, my first question. My second question is, is there anything that you've tried to do as a maintainer to kind of maybe encourage other types of contributions? Or are there things that as open source kind of community members we can do in order to encourage more people who aren't programmers, aren't developers, aren't coders to contribute to open source? Right. For this DevTools project itself, sadly, currently the repository is currently not much active on GitHub because with the recent launch of Firefox, few things are not compatible, what used to work on GitHub. So most of the development has now shifted to Mozilla Central. But nevertheless, people still command file bugs if they notice or still try to open small pull requests, which will then be transitioned on the Mozilla Central repository. But to answer the first question about documentation, we do, we did use to get a lot of contributions mainly to improve the read me or the overall documentation of the whole DevTools architecture or the different components itself. So I think it was again a preference of people, what they used to like. And the next question was what we as a community did to bring more non code contributions. So this was about making everyone included, right? So the first step as a community thing, we need to identify that we can get diverse contributions. And how do we value these diverse contributions? So code versus non codes or treat everything equally. Most of the time what happens is code contributions are taken like, oh, yes, you know, this is like the real needed thing. And the soft skills or the documentation are considered low priority. So we as a community as maintainers first have to realize that no matter what, no matter what kind of contribution comes in, everything has to be valued. So this has to be always there in the mind of the community, especially in the mind of maintainers. And then I think it gets easier to accept any kind of contributions. The next thing, we also try to improve the language specific things. So what we realized was in the Slack channel, when people used to talk sometimes, you know, not everyone was a native English speaker. So sometimes emotions or the vocabulary was lost. And people, yeah, tried felt intimidated by, you know, some comments, especially when it came from men. And then we tried to encourage like an inclusive language. So, you know, a period would be like, you know, ending a sentence with a period is always considered a bit harsh. So maybe end a sentence with a smiley or with dot dot dot. So I think these little kind of things bring in a lot of emotions. And it makes you talk further or like, you know, helps someone else make the next move. So other than documentation or non code related things, we were also particularly thinking about a language, how we speak. And then we tried to have some automated bots into Slack. So whenever a new member joined, so there was this bot, which used to translate in different languages in the language that they preferred, or just this bot would come and help them. Okay, so here are the good first bugs, bugs. And here is the documentation, you know, so it's all giving this personal touch. So even as a maintainer or a person who writes solely code, it was very important for us to target all these different things. And it became very interesting when it came things about when contributions came when naming the variables, right? So people who were non native contributors, the way these two name things would matter, especially native speakers. And we just said, ignore those things. It just does not break anything. So there is a variable name. It is descriptive enough. So incomplete versus uncomplete. How critical is that, like, you know, to turn the first time contributor with these kind of minor grammatical settings. So all these things, it also adds to your code related contributions as well, you know, just to ignore all the grammatical issues. So it is just, just does not harm anybody. And for a first time contributor, when the first time contributor has bypassed all these issues, and a first time contributor sees a pull request getting merged, be in terms of documentation or be in terms of code. I think this can be a huge win. And as already mentioned here, that self satisfaction is I think what we have to guarantee the first time contributor. And once this is done, then I think all the other things flow in together. It becomes easy. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're definitely right in saying that like language and how we use language is like a huge part of how we include or exclude people. I have like a quick short brief example that I often use in my talks, which is that we use Slack for our communication with Rails Go Summer of Code. And we also have a Slackbot. And when people use the word guys, which a lot of people say guys is gender neutral, but it's not gender neutral. And so the Slackbot kind of like gently suggests other words that can be used instead of the word guys to like address everyone that are more kind of gender inclusive. And I think even though sometimes people see that as a little bit of like a passive aggressive thing, but it's a good way, it's a good way to kind of hint in the direction of like the type of language that we want to use. And also I think what I've heard some people say is like people are more likely to get angry at another person than they are to get angry at a bot. And so if you use a bot to kind of like translate what you actually want to tell the person, it just makes it easier because people will not be getting angry at the bot, but they might get angry at the person who says, hey, guys is not gender neutral. And I think we also try to do some community calls around listing a topic in non-native English itself with like a complete foreign script and about how like native speakers like you know could see it. So there was, and then it's all about creating awareness, right? It's all about building into, I think it's about broadening the mindscape, broadening the horizon. And yeah, this community call was very well taken when we had some title in a foreign script. And then our point was, you know, this is how non-native speakers feel when things are, you know, when hard coded and we are meant to follow the native English guidelines. And the next thing I think always comes in hand to have a very, very well written code of conduct. So I think this is very important when you run an open source community. So having a well written code of conduct, not just having a code of conduct, it's very important to enforce it. And I think this is very important and whenever people see this as being enforced, I think people feel comfortable around it. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think maybe this is like also a good leeway into like a topic that I wanted to briefly talk about. I think before we slowly wrap up the panel, which is on the topic of like allyship. So kind of if I look around the room here, a lot of people are like there's a lot of men in this room. There's a lot of white men for kind of the people who are watching from the live stream perhaps. And so I think a lot of us and even I would speak, if I speak for myself, like I as a white able bodied woman who is also straight, I have a lot of privilege. And so there are a lot of things that I can do as an ally to actually support people who are more marginalized than me. And I guess my question is to like all of you, but maybe more specifically to people who see themselves more as ally than members have underrepresented or marginalized groups. What can we do to support the people who are more marginalized than us? Listen, I guess like listen is the first thing. I mean, I think we can all be allies of each other as well. Like you said, I think there's different privileges that everybody has. But I think the main thing is to make space and listen to people, to other people. Yeah, I think you're right. Frank, do you have something else that you would like to share? I'm not sure. There are like a lot of good things already mentioned here. I'm not sure I can add something here. I mean, the challenges is just that it's sort of a, as we know, I guess it's not allowed to solve a death cycle in a way that you have like, like underrepresented groups that are underrepresented, then they don't feel like invited in some areas like an IT and specific community or company on IT in general, because they are underrepresented. And of course, then they also don't like study like maybe computer science and focus on other things. And then the companies that have like trouble finding the people, basically, because they're less qualified job people there, basically, because they don't study this, they study something else. And then this is a death cycle, basically, and leads again to this, to the situation that mainly white men here. And somehow we have to break this cycle. That's like the challenge. And that's also unfortunately takes a lot of time, because there's something to do with the education, which is you don't change in the day, right? It's a decision of your life. So this takes a lot of, lot of work from all of us for a long time to change this mindset and then basically, hopefully improve the situation. But I can say also like as ex-cloud, I mean, we really, we want to hire other people than white men, but it is tough, basically, we need to change. Basically, we have to change the culture so that more people feel invited to go into this space and then hopefully, yeah, practice this death cycle. But it's something that is not easy and will definitely take some time. But I also want to say that I think we are in a good way and a good track here. I really like that in the IT industry and open source that we have discussions around that, that we have panels like that as awareness around it. I think there are a lot of other areas which whereas other areas where they don't even talk about it, right? I mean, there is like, I don't know if you will move into politics or lots of other areas where it's really a similar bad situation, but I don't see a lot of panel discussions like that in other areas. So I really, I'm really positive that I think together we can improve the situation step after step and then hopefully in a few years have a way better situation than today. Yeah, I don't know if I'm as hopeful, but I think I've been trying to go to a lot of meetups and talk to people from more marginalized groups and I think it's really about like making space for them. So, you know, good intentions are great, but if they're not implemented, it's really doesn't mean anything. People want action, they want to see that it's meaningful. There is plenty of people of color and plenty of women who can work in tech, but they're still not getting the jobs. There's plenty of women that study computer science and don't end up in the field. It's not only tech. I worked in the film industry for five years. I worked in the coffee industry for five years. It isn't the same everywhere. There's cultural differences. I think in India from the people I've spoke to there, there are women that at least study in the field of technology. In Albania, I've met a group of female technologists. In England, I would say I was discouraged from technology while I was at school. Not that it wasn't absolutely possible, but I felt, well, maybe it's also teacher-specific, let's say, but I think the people are out there. I think it's we need to make more meaningful or we need to be good on our promises and not only have discussions about diversity and inclusion, but make real action on it and listen to the people who it affects. The good news is, ultimately, it's better for everybody. Sorry. It helps us all. If I can then add to that, I think if there's definitely one thing that I've noticed that I can do is also kind of amplifying, because listening is great, but then as an example, if the great person of color on Twitter has 200 followers and I have 2,000, I can ultimately push their message. I think that is also something that is our responsibility. It's something that we've sort of heard throughout today's talks, like this idea of if you don't do anything, then you're complicit in whatever happens. If you don't amplify the message and if you don't amplify the voices of people who are more marginalized, then you're also kind of complicit in this whole cycle that we're talking about. We amplify the voices of people who aren't marginalized. We end up hiring them and then the cycle continues. We need to break that cycle. I think thinking a lot about our privilege and thinking about how we can use it for good is maybe one thing that we can definitely do, as well as listening. Yeah. I mean, you can all just think in your local circle, like at Pi Ladies, we have a gender policy, which is like a plus one policy. We actually have quite a few members of Pi Ladies who identify as male and we, I think, have very interesting content. So they really want to come to our MIPS, but we say please bring a female plus one because that helps us kind of ensure that we keep our like minimum 50% of female attendees, but also it kind of widens the circle of people who know about it. Maybe we can do something similar for the next next cloud conference of bringing a plus one if we need. Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. We've got enough seats. Yeah. I don't know if yours is somewhere listening and taking notes, but okay, great. Yeah, maybe to kind of wrap it up, do you have, like we've talked about, we've touched on so many topics, like we talked about sort of what we can do with our privilege. We talked about the issues with time in contributing to open source and like diverse contributions and how our hiring is broken in our industry. Before we wrap up, like you have any last kind of words of wisdom for the audience or maybe a resource that you would recommend if people want to educate themselves because education is maybe also like a good. I would like to say in continuation to the last question, diversity is good. It's good to know that there's a problem and it's good to work towards it, but the main problem, diversity is good, allyship is good, but the important thing is how do you make all of this in feel included? So as an example, you might care about diversity in a conference, might make sure, okay, like, you know, okay, we need diverse candidates. So let's, let's open a diversity scholarship. But in the end, if that is like an after party with all drinks, and if, if, like, if somebody is not comfortable with this, then your after party is broken. So the people who don't feel included there will never participate. So that's the first thing. Or just with the catering options, if the food is like not good, people will not be included there. So I think what's more important is giving people the feeling of inclusion. So this also includes giving a feeling of inclusion even to people who identify themselves as white, male or white females. So it's not a person's fault for having born that way or, you know, having turned out to be that way. So it's good. Allyship is good. It's good. Okay, when you talk about allyship, you care about diversity. But what's more important is executing how inclusion is implemented and making sure that's executed the right way. So and for this, just starting with communication, just broadening your mindset. I think that that's the first step to begin with just to identify that each one of us is different and each one of us can have our own personal preferences and starting to think that direction can be a great starting pointer. Thank you. Jessica, do you have? I just say if anyone is in Berlin permanently, you can come to our open source diversity meetups and support as coaches or you can help us find host space. There's lots of ways to support us. If you don't feel comfortable with any of those ways, but you have some extra income, you can also support various groups, not just open source diversity with money because, you know, that gets you a lot of places. And it's also maybe worth saying that like I think on the website of open source diversity, there's like an overview of like resources and programs and different things that, yeah, that we share there. So it's, yeah, maybe also worth people checking that out, checking out the website. Cool. Thank you. You asked for some wisdom. I'm not sure I can do that. But I wanted to mention that next cloud that we have a program called nextcloud.include where you can people, underrepresented group can apply for travel support, mentorships and other things to become part of the community. And I want to encourage everybody to apply if you're in the live stream or in the room or if you know someone recommend suggest to apply. And, yeah, so I hope that we can have a better, a better diverse community here next year. Yeah, maybe following Jessica's suggestion, also bringing plus ones. I actually quite like that idea. Cool. Thank you.