 We have to identify people with the power, capabilities and interests to support the anti-corruption. We wanted to go away from the idea of sanctioning perpetrators. How do you catch people and stop them doing what they're doing? But look at systemic and structural drivers. It's not something that is just a big bang and you have other change or you get all the corrupt people and you throw them into jail. It's something that you have to do progressively from one step to the next step This is a sort of package that we call strategic realism. It is really to identify things that can be done and things that can make a difference.