 All right, you ready? All right, let's start it off We've never given a talk to a crowd this big before so we're both kind of really nervous so and Yeah, we've had to basically stay quiet for four years while going through our court case and legal issues So this is the first time we can talk about as much as we want So here's hoping we don't get arrested when we get back to the state So basically The story starts with operation payback And the anonymous movement that sort of came with it There at the time operation payback happened it was focused more on piracy MPAA or RIA things like that And the copyright At the same time the operation payback was happening WikiLeaks was also forming itself into a major journalistic entity What was it like two or three weeks in the operation payback a little bit more than that well it started with the government decided to hire an Indian company to DDoS operation or to DDoS the pirate bay and so there were a series of like Revenge DDoS is to get back at them And then that was sort of the forming of operation payback and then Things have sort of gone to a low when the big line wire lawsuit came out. Yeah, it's September Yeah, and so I kind of came in like early November is when I showed up Yeah, and the avenges on stuff started to come on December Yeah, so it was sort of like a series of just little stuff Oh And a quick disclaimer Important disclaimer So as most of you know anonymous is Everything and nothing Encompassed in one it it shouldn't be identifiable It should be movement and fluid and everything so when we talk about anonymous or when we relate to anonymous we don't Stand to define it. We stand to show you what happened in relation to it or our case in relation to it so there's um, I Was in the reporter channel on and on ops a few weeks ago and this reporter asked well Anonymous doesn't really seem to have like a goal And he was missing the point totally because anonymous is a method of activism And so the people that take part in it have lots and lots of different goals and needs And so to define anonymous as this thing that has one goal and one need Would be to destroy it because it's meant to help the people that have different needs and different goals And so it doesn't have just one So that's why there isn't one All right These are our mug shots from the FBI The Marshalls Mine's with the Marshalls. Oh mine's from the FBI. Yeah, cuz it's got the tiles So that's the Marshalls. We had two mug shots, but only one was leaked to the public. I guess I'm here. You can see our indictment or at least the front page of it Yeah, oh and we want to point out that Dennis Collins the guy at the very top He really really wanted to be here today But the government decided to re-indite him again for another charge in Virginia for essentially the same thing So there's some question of like double jeopardy and they got around it by just extending the dates out So he couldn't be here because he couldn't he's not allowed to have a passport because they decided to indict him again Yeah, and then others on the list Although they were involved they liked their anonymous status and they just don't want to be public figures Involved in it. Not that they don't stand with their beliefs or what they did they just Don't want to be in the public eye and then some of our co-defendants are here right now So you can stand up if you'd like and those are some of my best friends in the world And I'm really glad you guys aren't going to jail This is sort of an explanation around our talk or around our court case. So December 4th Yeah, oh, I can't I like it better up here, but so on or around December 4th is When the blockade against WikiLeaks started to kick in so we know that about a week before this the government had the government and various governments our government The French government Britain started to send out requests to various service providers that they start denying service to Wow Holland and WikiLeaks now while Holland as a lot of you know Represents a lot of different projects. So WikiLeaks while we support them There were a lot of other projects that just kind of got shut down because they were in the way Oh Coming through blocking while Holland and so in retaliation a Lot of members of the anonymous movement decided that it was time to do something about this and there were a series of retaliations against PayPal primarily, but I think because they were like the biggest problem and then there was Mastercard Visa Bank of America Western Union pretty much any way other than just putting cash in an envelope and mailing it You could not donate to while Holland or WikiLeaks And so there were a series of denial of services and black faxes So I don't know the word in German for black facts But it's when you take a black piece of paper and you tape it in the fax machine and send it on the loop so And it was pretty great because like there was some guy who Leaked one of the service admins Emails from the PayPal that was like yeah, so one of the fax machines just caught on fire because the heat sensor wasn't working Go us fires good So I think next slide So out of these attacks I'm not sure if you can read, but we'll go through it This is the damages total in dollar amounts that PayPal put towards the government so You can see that from our from the DDoS attack They said they spent almost a half a million dollars in work effort 4.5 million dollars in new hardware and software basically they re got a brand new infrastructure on our dime And a new fax machine It's a very expensive fax machine Part of this four million five hundred lots of dollars Was a software update so they tried to claim to the government that There that we were responsible for the fact that they needed a software update so What was their plan if we hadn't DDoS them was to just not update So the judge said well because you paid for it and received it that is like you that's a purchase That's not a loss So like if we break your window, we are responsible for replacing the window But we're not responsible for like digging you a moat also like that's not our problem So that was pretty cool. We didn't have to pay them four million dollars. So that was pretty awesome. I Don't have four million dollars. I don't know anyone that does nope all right, so on January 27th the following month Okay, we have typos we're human so January 27th about month the next month we 40 people are 35 people in the United States five around Europe were Rated I believe the Europeans were arrested at the time For the DDoS attacks against PayPal My personal experience Was waking up at six o'clock in the morning after I had logged off my computer at 3 a.m. I Woke up to banging on the door. I walked into my small apartment living room area to Lights and people screaming outside my door with guns with guns I hadn't seen the gun yet because my blinds were closed, but So they were screaming open up the door. I tried to go wake my girlfriend up to let her know what was going on and then I Went back and opened the door and immediately had a gun shoved in my face ten people like bum rush the door to try to get in I immediately turned around fell down to the ground was trying not to fight not to put up any sort of struggle because I Who am I? I'm not the terminator or anything So the slide says 40 indictments is actually supposed to say 40 search warrants so there were 35 or 40 served in the United States and then five actual arrests in the UK and Some of those people actually were here at the conference today, right? So, yeah that was them and So like mine started if you want to know what a Fed knock sounds like That's what it sounds like at six in the morning and it's a really scary sound when you're just waking up So mine is I was Living with my dad at the time and I got pulled out into the cold with like the flashlight in your face and guns and There's all these stupid questions. They asked to verify that it is indeed you and then during the search warrants They asked you all these questions and one of the questions which so anonymous by this point in Anon history had kind of we were still doing flyers and things on 4chan, but we weren't organizing there We were organizing on IRC so they one of the questions they asked was Tell us about 4chan, which is a really vague and strange question to ask And So after like, I mean they asked and I was like look you don't want to know about 4chan So I was like well if you really want to know I'll tell you but you can't unhear it like this is permanent You're doing this to yourself forever and They're like yeah, tell us about 4chan and so I Told them I have a pretty good memory for things that I've read so I told them almost like line by line one of the worst 4chan threads I'd ever read And I'm not gonna subject you guys to it now, but It's essentially about this guy that's like in love with his dog and in a number of ways maybe maybe some of you have seen it Anyway, anyway, but the FBI agent one of them had to go up outside and throw up afterwards Little things in life like getting an FBI agent to throw up outside your house They didn't put that in an evidence bag I'm really disappointed so After the January 27th Time when the search warrants were put out when they were going after all their evidence and whatnot it took them six months to go through all that Go through testimonies by people who decided to work with the government And on July 19th, they finally arrested 14 of us So so that means that for six months There were 40 people in America sitting there like oh fuck I'm gonna get I'm gonna get indicted I'm gonna go and then like so we've been indicted and our stuff is over and then the same for more or less the 13 people in Virginia while they're still waiting for their sentencing Some of them so but those other 40 people that have been served search warrants who some of them had just liked things on Facebook or had Signed a petition like things that are suspicious They're still sitting there like am I gonna go to jail like they have not they've maybe gotten their stuff back Maybe not like they are just sitting there in limbo going. I've been searched. What happens now So it's really scary place to be All right, yeah, so we were arrested and all the stuff and these are the charges we were given No, you can go ahead explain that all right, so There's two counts in the United States if you are guilty of guilty of Telling someone how to do something and they use that information to commit a crime and You could have possibly known that they would do this then you are conspiracist and you are Guilty of almost exactly the same charges and so we have a statute of limitations I think you have something like that here where for a federal crime of this nature It's usually seven years after the crime is committed if they haven't charged you in those seven years. It's over. It doesn't matter They can't but if it's a conspiracy charge the statute is seven years after the dissolution of the conspiracy So that would be anonymous. So we could possibly be charged for other things For up to seven years after the dissolution of anonymous which hopefully will be maybe never For the rest of our lives And it kind of came down to it could be two 15-year sentences served like at the same time and then $250,000 in fines that's just fines. That's not even restitution Right victims the 5.4 million dollars or wherever figure they decided to come up with that's not added on to this fine, yeah, so We'll get done with the boring legal stuff in a minute So do you um a little bit about the CFAA? And this is the general umbrella law they use for everybody. They consider a hacker. Basically if you know how to Get on Facebook. They consider you a hacker. I don't get it But hey, I'm not the FBI, so So the law was originally intended for banking fraud, right? So you Hit a certain combination of buttons on the ATM and got money out or you broke into the bank's phone line and stole some information It was originally intended for that and they have stretched the law so far that it even covers violating the terms of service of Facebook Okay, so we've gone from banking fraud to everything and so There's it was originally intended the way it was written to actually limit what the federal government Could prosecute it wasn't intended to cover like petty squabbles like if I put something on your laptop Covered under the CFA now, but that's not what was originally intended so Included all these things added malicious code DDoS You got so this was an interesting point Mercedes has been talking about a lot recently is that under the CFAA When you saw our charges one was for attempt to damage a secured computer Or protected computers and So the thing about the computer or the way that the federal government in the United States works is That if you take something or you do something illegal over a state line Any of the 50 states if you go over the state line with that that jumps into federal jurisdiction and they take control of it What they've been able to do is that they're saying that the devices that we use to connect to the internet to go globally all over the world Are interstate devices that means if you do anything on them illegal it automatically falls under federal jurisdiction No matter where you are which makes it a felony instead of a misdemeanor. It's automatically 15 years As opposed to so if even if it never touches the internet if it's over a router If I send something to him over the same router if we're in the same state Which is really abnormal or used to be abnormal for American law Then it's automatically a felony because it's interstate on an interstate device All right, so now and tomorrow like the political The fun thing. Yeah, the fun stuff. We promise Um So we have You notice it in America a lot. You may notice it in your own separate countries where governments and Corporations work hand-in-hand to make sure they're protected The common people the people who try to stand up for what they believe is right or what services they believe they were Are promised they're not given they seem to fall back to nobody Especially in America, I know our corporations are almost given the same rights as individuals more than more rights than individuals so So you're looking at This tradition that has been going on for ever And no one it just seems to get put to the wayside because the governments and the corporations have all the money So what it is is the system of so for instance paypal for our case if they wanted to be paid for the damages They could have just sued us Right, it didn't have to be a possible criminal case But instead they went to the government and said government will you get restitution out of these people? So it didn't have to be a federal case. It didn't have to be jail time. It could have just been Like I don't know what it is for toward is like if someone's hurt, but a corporation isn't a person Yeah But and so then you see the United States using PayPal to silence its opponents like WikiLeaks and The other well-hung causes that got in the way So you see this back and forth where the government's helping the banks and the banks are helping the government So at this point is there really any difference Between the two This guy here's good old general Alexander had or yeah, it was Yeah, well, he's got his own private security thing now supposedly not built on NSA technology, but he knows So this is when He went before Congress and said that we could possibly cause power outages Kind of ridiculous because why would we knock out our own power grid that we used to get on the internet download porn We're pretty selfish like that, but during but during the time that the attacks and things like that were going on many You would see many officials in Congress Lobbying with The argument that anonymous was this big scary thing that was gonna hurt everybody So they would use that to get more money more power All those sort of things So another major issue just surrounding the whole transparency movement in WikiLeaks And you should all be familiar with this is that The government's lack of transparency like really impacts your ability to decide who your government officials should be because You can't impeach what you don't know and then Like if you don't know what they're doing, then how do you know if they're doing a good job? So and everything is classified they they just something came out that was declassified that was classified in the 60s And it was something They're not supposed there's specific law that they're not supposed to classify anything just because it's embarrassed and Embarrassing for a public official and this document came out that was the guy like had sex with prostitutes or something and it was classified for 50 years so and then also so in the United States if you destroy something that's part of the process of a federal investigation Then you're tampering within you're tampering with evidence or impeding the investigation Despite your fifth amendment right to not incriminate But if they destroy it, it's national security and it's very important and we can't question that so Right, right, and this is and this Transparency is the biggest part of what Snowden and Manning did I think is to tell us what is actually going on so we know who to put in charge I mean if we need leaders we need to be able to trust those people Why are we not actually finding out what they're doing and Jeremy haven't and Jeremy, okay? So shortly after our search warrants, so they've done the 40 search warrants going we've caught the cyber terrorists And they're really bad in the power grid The head of the FBI went in front of Congress and said there's cyber terrorists And we need more money and we need more tools and we need more power And they were even talking about reallocating money from keeping Mexicans out of the United States to looking for us Which if they're willing to give up their hatred of Mexicans in the United States that is a big deal That's a big deal So yeah, some really nice quotes as well. We always need more money and We're a big FBI family And this is the guy that gave it we made a nice little gift of him going every time Every time he mentions the budget his hands go further and further out Yeah, we made our Norwegian friend watch it. He'd never seen a government video before Oh You want to go? Sabu and the time when law sec was around Um Basically, we see Sabu as an agent provocateur. He was placed there by the government And was meant to control the anonymous narrative through Bullying and threatening harassment Generally being a douchebag generally being a douchebag So there's he's that guy that shows up to the peaceful protest and throws a brick through a window and tries to start a riot In what would have otherwise been a totally okay totally like peaceful non-harmful just demonstration And so we feel that it happened at a very particular time when a lot of people were being arrested and going underground But anonymous was still becoming really famous and a lot of new people coming in so Sabu we don't know if it was on purpose. I think it was on purpose He maybe kind of disagrees, but we think that's who was placed at a very particular time In the movement's growth that kind of gave him the opportunity to be that guy with the rock in the window And he's completely opposite from what he talks now what he talks now like the anonymous was way too publicized for him And he did all of this and has the guy that had like two million Twitter followers Yeah, he was the guy who was anonymous Sabu on Twitter like how much more public you want to be and then the way he would funnel people into law-sex channel for Everything make sure that everything was logged there like it was just the whole thing was set up completely dirty well, he had a conversation with Gabrielle Coleman who's an anthropologist who kind of studies these things they were talking on Jabba and he refused to use OTR like refused like flat-out refused to use off-the-record plug-in, so I Think next slide and like the the big thing on Sabu is that We're not able to talk to him. We're not able to talk to anybody affiliated No, an affiliated with anonymous. We can't be in back channels discussing things that are happening We're just kind of watching things unfold. So everything that's unfolding regarding anonymous is now coming on to us Yeah, so we're getting blamed for things that we can't even stand in the way of Is essentially what it happened. So We're watching all this stuff happen, and then we're currently indicted and people are saying well you guys are stealing credit card numbers It's like no, I just maybe send some packets to PayPal. I didn't steal anyone's anything So for this it's the first month of our indictment we were completely prohibited from touching any sort of computer We were for almost a year specifically barred from using Twitter For almost no reason that they could justify other than well, maybe they'll talk to people That would be terrible from what I heard though it had to do with some protests Which I can't remember off the top of my head, but they were using Twitter to Circumvent the police blocks. So some command center of this protest would say hey The cops are here don't go this way, and they'd make sure the movement would move somewhere else Dare we avoid cops, right? And then for the entire length of the indictment we were prohibited from speaking I are speaking on IRC But other protocols like Jabba and things like that were totally fine Oh This basically goes off of the movie that we just watched I mean the amount of things and ways they have to track us is Mind-boggling at times and most people don't even want to try to wrap their head around it Like if you if you want a fun game Just try to keep track of how many times you hit that button on the side of your phone to turn the screen on to See what time it is like just where would you be without your phone? I don't own an alarm clock. I only own a cell phone Every day we're completely dependent on these devices We send so much communication over them we don't even realize how much and then they can monitor all of it because the way it works I know in Germany It's very different you guys actually cannot surrender the right to your own day your own communications But in the United States it's not this way in the United States So every message I send on Facebook is not actually my message. It's Facebook's data on me So if the government comes to Facebook and says Facebook, we really need all this data Facebook can legally say yes Because it's not my data that they're surrendering. It's their data on me so there is a big conflict because we have the constitutional right to privacy in the United States supposedly and What it is is they're getting around the Fourth Amendment or this this human right that we've been granted By saying that it's not your data. It's somebody else's data. And that's all we're requesting super shady and They and Facebook doesn't have to tell us that they've made this request and in fact in some ways They are prevented from telling us legally they are not legally allowed to tell us that this request has been made And of course, this doesn't just stick with Facebook. It's every service you use anywhere Google, Twitter Any most email providers all all all email providers that are not like privately Created by yourself, which we recommend. Yeah DIY as many services as you can seriously learn how it works So like my co-defendant Josh is really bored up in Ohio right now And he made a Jabber server. We have our own etherpad for our co-defendancy. We have rumble Yeah, we have our own mumble and Like it's ours if somebody comes in we know they have come in it's ours And it's just running on an old laptop that I had left over and Capable connection my parents house and he taught himself how to do it So if Josh can do it anybody else can do it too. There's no excuse And then it's your data and not Facebook's data Yeah, yeah, basically goes on the same thing. So if the government Is allowed to say that or these corporations and the government are allowed to say that it's not our data it's the services data and if they're allowed to prosecute us and Arrest us and charge us like they have been Then what rights do we have online? We come online to be free to do what we want to be what we want and say what we want why What jurisdiction do they have there? They shouldn't have any and and so essentially our argument is is that so much of your life Is online that if your human rights and your civil rights do not extend to online then they do not exist They're gone then And we feel that this particular time in history is the time that this is going to be decided if it's not decided now Then it's puts us in a really hazardous position for the for the future Because this is when it's being decided and we need to really push for them now or we won't have them ever. They'll be gone So we came up with some ethical questions Yeah, so Do you feel like the banks should be able to tell you where you can spend your money and obviously, that's a really big problem because Especially in the United States. There's only like maybe five or six major banks now, especially since the collapse and they consolidated So if all the banks decide that you can only buy your tires from this one place then that is where you have to buy your tires and So it's a serious problem That could potentially control people's spending rights Which we feel especially you have a more socialist society here, but in the United States capitalism runs everything and If you don't have your capitalist spending rights, then what rights do you have? None zero none. You are your wallet. So that's why the poor and the homeless see No, no rights whatsoever. They're treated like trash and it's disgraceful. It's it's pretty Things you can donate to or through PayPal other than WikiLeaks Yeah, so we're also if you have any others that you know are on this list that we forgot or left off that are really funny We would love to hear those. Yes, we're gonna put a list on the website, which we built ourselves also But most of these organizations are known to be very violent dangerous or have known Very extremist views or they're actually Registered as a hate group or I like to KKK is registered as a terrorist group And yet you can still donate just fine to PayPal or through PayPal. Yeah, the Westboro Baptist Church I don't know if you guys would be familiar with them in the United States or in Germany But they are the guys that go to like the military funerals and have the signs to say God hates facts Everyone's seen these pictures. That's those guys. You can still donate to them, but you can't but you couldn't at that time donate to well Holland There's the truth about homosexuality guys who are the ones who do like the pray the gay away camps Or you pray and you pray and maybe God will make you straight They're they're a registered hate group and you can donate to them so that you can help people pray their gay away Doesn't work So money is speech so Yeah, well, but it's got So we had the Supreme Court decision that corporations are people and they can donate as much money as they want to political candidates, which is Not very good. And so But they've decided the corporations can donate as much money to anybody that they want any time that they want They don't even have to tell us how they did it or how much They can yeah, anyway but By blockading WikiLeaks, they have taken that same right away from you so It's essentially the government under their own rules has colluded with the banks to take away the same right that at the Very same time they had just given to corporations. So that's Super should be super legal, but we're talking about the government And you can yeah, so this was a major question posed by people throughout the past four years is how can you defend the freedom of speech while oppressing somebody else's freedom of speech And that's a very hard question because Yeah, that guy even though you hate him deserves to say whatever he feels like saying But at the same time if that man is spouting derogatory hate and inciting riots and starting General problems Where is the line? and This is our line you're of course free to choose your own line as you like that. Yeah, of course. Of course This is just our opinion and things but We feel that in our context, there's a major difference between What a individual or an individual being attacked or and a corporation being attacked So yeah, and so when cases like these or when Issues like this come up. We look at the size and the general nature of why this person or I mean this entity was Targeted. What did they do? What happened? What made people so angry at them? There's got to be a reason like I can't imagine The board members of PayPal sitting in their boardroom going we did nothing wrong They must have just loved us. They loved us a whole lot. They wanted to send us all our packets. So They would love packets full of love But like didn't didn't one guy question like maybe they're pissed off at us Maybe we doing something wrong. Like I don't know if they have the the moral Capability to think that way, but that's that's exactly how I would think if I ran a company I would wonder why everybody hated me. What decision did I make to to ruin our Customer relationship like what happened and then work to fix it but PayPal obviously decided not to do that We also feel there is a very very big difference between a human with human rights and the rights of a piece of paper That is designed to make money we've So if I make a blog and I put this blog up and it's got an opinion That is my opinion formed by me as an individual as a human with rights But if PayPal has a blog which they did until we de-dosted it to the ground That is an opinion formed on behalf of making money on behalf of that piece of paper Designed to make money and it is not a human and it does not have rights And so that is where our ethical line is as far as what is impeding freedom of speech We do not feel we impeded a PayPal's freedom of speech because we do not feel that PayPal is a person and Then this is sort of an open question because I've given one talk before and I get this question on the time and maybe you have to but people ask Well Lull set for the whole of their entity claim that they were Not the same as anonymous that they were not anonymous that they were a separate thing But there was still the question of they were doing some things on a Non-related servers and they were interacting with nons a lot. And so the question comes up all the time is did law sec violate ethics when they stole people's credit cards and use them to donate to foundations and were they violating ethics when they Posted when they dumped people's addresses and things and then how responsible is anonymous as a movement for Creating the environment that allowed law sec to exist And so we've left this open because there's some debate between us And we're not really sure how to answer it And so if you guys have an input on that we'd certainly love to hear it because debates are fun So we'll leave that open for the Q&A, which we will have in a moment So here's nice little thing. They told us to put in we were like, yeah, but they're like, yeah, you need money We're not okay. It's money So if you would like to donate, there's a couple different options There's the go fund me, which is not obvious that we don't have a PayPal for a couple reasons So you can donate through the go fund me it goes directly to the co-defendants And then gets divided equally amongst the co-defendants until the restitution is paid And once the restitution is paid then the go fund me will be closed and we will not be accepting any more money We don't want money. We just would like to not be under the thumb of PayPal anymore You can also donate through the well Holland, which is tax deductible in Europe Unfortunately not in America because nonprofits are only for people that are actually making profits and if you would like to donate to more anons like Not us because we have our own thing but for the broader and on community who has been indicted Served search warrants has to pay for hotels for court things like that. We had a problem with that you can donate to free anons, which is a They're an organization that helps pay for like food and transportation and courts Fees for anons who are also being prosecuted other than just ourselves So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to our talk But this time we'd like our co-defendants and if there are any other like currently indicted or prosecuted anons and that or Computer activists in the auditorium if you'd like to come up and join us for the q&a Because this is not me and josh's movement. This is everybody's movement and we all deserve a chance to answer anybody's questions If you would like So here's our co-defendants Oh, this is the q&a and we'd like to give an opportunity to any like currently prosecuted activist computer activists in the audience that would also like to join the q&a because it's not just our movement It's everybody's movement. So It's just Keith. Hello, and this is Vincent Kershaw Trevet Hello Help if it was on hey So shall we begin um well Number one, please Hello, and thank you for all you've done so far and I hope It turns out for the best my question is with regards to the computer fraud and abuse act statutes that say that Protected computers that have been accessed across the internet That's a crime. Isn't it criminal negligence on the parts of the parties that need to administer this these computers to Have them available for easy access to the internet has someone tried to defend it in a Way in such a way that it's criminal negligence at their part to not be Administering their machines appropriately for them to be considered protected It will it just has to be you've accessed it without consent Whether they left it if they left it completely open And you went into it it is still a violation of the law It's not it's not like in like in australia if you didn't take adequate precautions Then in australia, then it's not a crime for someone to walk into your computer So but the united states is not like that. It's just access without consent Which is really really dangerous because what if you do it by accident? right um Sorry to trump. Um, I see people coming in going out if you want to leave now this room Please over the sites not through the middle gates here because people are coming in doors are closed now in the middle and just leave to these sites For safety reasons, so please continue Okay, um someone else number four, please um I take it that you have been prosecuted for being part of the anonymous movement And I find it really hard to sympathize with it because of the this huge sexist backlash against women and female activists on the internet so Would you comment on that? so Anonymous has caused a bad anonymous has done Anti-feminism things. I think well people in the name of anonymous people in the name. So This is the other thing that we tried to point out at the beginning is that anonymous makes up of whoever whenever however I was a part of it at the time In 2010 I don't Say I'm anonymous now So what they do um I don't think is right But I can't They're anonymous. I I I'm sorry and I don't believe it. They should be doing that but I can't stop them and there's no leaders either so but um From a I understand your point and I understand how that's kind of maybe not enough as a woman But from a woman's perspective who I've I've been there and on the IRC sometimes Everyone is default male, which as man that's totally fine for you because you are male, but if you make what some people consider to be a mistake and Let people know that hey you have female pronouns or hey, maybe you have a vagina It's that instead like tits don't get the fuck out and you're like no show me your tits or you get the fuck out prove your man Yeah And so I can say that from personal experience like that's just like an internet uh culture thing that has leaked into anonymous and as Okay, so if I ever had a problem on a non ops, which is one of the largest anonymous IRCs that's been going on since 2010 you were there If someone says this to me and I get mad There are people and particularly one of them's here in the audience who like instant ban like you are fuck you go away Because how dare you make another non feel uncomfortable like they can't do activism here And if it gets to that point if someone makes it clear that they have hit that point then Like that person has to be dealt with period so I understand like the feelings of the culture and saying like hey that guy's a faggot, but um That's another panel completely, but It is not quite what it's been made out to be and I really recommend that if there's a problem Then say something to your sysadmins and if there's a problem with your sysadmins get new sysadmins Because sysadmins are replaceable just like anybody else Right This is their question from the web No, thanks for asking. Um, there's no actually a question from the web, but there was a lot of discussion around Why you have chosen um DDoS PayPal and not an other approach. Maybe you can collaborate on this You guys want to talk about like in the hive and all that good stuff Um Yeah, um So the question was basically why did we choose to DDoS rather than hack? Um Really, I guess I see it as a sit-in rather than you know Breaking and entering. Yeah, we there's no need to break an inner when you can just you know I've been all I've had an online sit-in so You know to me I saw it as you know a legitimate way to protest PayPal and let our opinions be known um And it's as simple as that And and in germany like with the lufthansa case it is legitimate. Yeah, it's protected speech here political speech so I mean what we went the path forward what we went through in the past four years if you're a german citizen you It's like a pickup trash for a weekend Question answered. I think so. Um number five, please. Yes. Yes. Hello. Um, how much Trouble would it get you if someone who went to the same legal hoops during the same time came up to you to say hi Oh, it's all good now where we've been sentenced So we can talk to people now like people can come to talk to us It was for a long time if somebody messaged me on facebook and said Hey, I'm from anonymous and I want to hang out and I really support you I would have to like delete their message and never talk to them again because our conditions were worded very specifically that if you uh, if we knew someone to be anonymous Then we couldn't talk to them But if there was that layer of doubt where like we don't know they haven't told us directly Then it's okay. So it goes from like the second they tell us then we have to stop speaking to them Um, so now we've been sentenced and it's totally cool, which is how we get to be here right now It's because the government finally decided to let us go Um, but so now if you wanted to hang out, it's totally cool We're pretty available. You can call us actually do you have your phone on silent right now? Oh, it's down there. Oh, it's down there. Okay. Well, our gsm number is sweet sw e d Or f you know, you know f you and oh I registered that one Okay, so I think that's question answered great number four, please Right. So if you would be willing to talk about this, what are the amounts of money that you now owe and You have received and second question. Would it be useful for you right now and here to receive cash or not? We were gonna have a bucket McFly forgot to get us a bucket. We were supposed to have a bucket and McFly misplaced it so my bucket Oh Okay, so so far we have raised about what what was it on the go fund me like? Um, I'd have to look. Um, I know Yeah, we raised I want to say 17 I think it was go fund me. It was close to 18 000 on the go fund me and then something like 4 000 on the well holland Which our group like the paypal codependency um Almost every single decision is decided by our group So even though I sometimes end up being the one that everyone wants to talk to because I'm like the token girl If someone comes to me with a question I like screenshot the question and I send it to these guys and I'm like, hey guys How do you want me to answer this question? Like everything that's done on behalf of paypal is done on paypal 14 is done on behalf of paypal 14 and decided by paypal 14 So we decided then that the 4 000 that was raised for well holland should go for this trip to Like let people know what's going on and how things are in the united states and how we would really like them to be Which would be freedom that would be nice. Um, so we've raised about 21 000 but 4 000 went towards being here today So we still technically need 50 It's okay. So it's 5600 each defendant times 13 So it's about well it's 86 000 all together minus 21 000 Yeah, it's complicated. It's a lot of money like 50 000 is left And yeah, and go fund me and go fund me right now is listed at 86 000 But that's because they take like the 8 yeah the 8.5 percent. Yeah, it's a fee So if you look at the go fund me it includes the fee for go fund me Because we thought that would be a good idea at the beginning So it's closer to 7200, but we have about 50 000 left to go Which will not fit in a bucket Great, and yes, we take cash So please come up to the stage and give them all your money Anyone else is invited to give them all your money He's trustworthy Is there something else from the web? apparently not Sorry, I was reading um, there's one question For the panel could you perhaps comment on how you or the other People that were rated They're founded or they're found or they're identified. Have you any idea how they identified us? Yes, how have you been identified? You can tell the stories about the servers in texas um, yeah, actually, uh They found i'm pretty sure Mercedes and like the people who were like channel operators and stuff like that who actually didn't Who weren't involved in the protest? um, they serve they Sees a server from host time and hurricane electric and one of them apparently had logs on it Um, somebody didn't know how to use dev null apparently um So do it yourself. Yeah, um So, yeah, they got caught that way. Um, some of us were caught by sending packets. Um, I was one of the unlucky 1000 people that were caught in PayPal's logs and they decided to indict Five of us. Well, I think we all said packets. It's just some of us used a VPN That too Use a VPN I think personally for me, I think I was set up By an individual within the movement And uh, that guy is another I don't have I don't have all of the documentation I need to prove it so I'm not going to put out any allegations at this time, but Working on that There's a website So we have about two minutes left. I think and so I think we have time for one more question Yeah, last question number one, please. Hurry up If you want oh, no, sorry Anybody else someone else no something else from from the net A web or net. Yeah, um, there's one question coming in So did you do anything more than sending more packets to to paypal and is this really illegal? So what was the current charge? Uh, we we can't answer that question Yeah Not legally if we don't want to be arrested when we go home again again. I see fine Great great great great. I think this was an awesome talk. Thank you very much. Give him very Thank you and applause