 Many Nigerians were taken aback when they found that at Binance, a popular crypto exchange would be shortened down all operations in the country by March 8. Despite facing regulatory hurdles in the past, people were puzzled about why the top crypto exchange would leave the fast growing market for Bitcoin usage. My guest, Nathaniel Lewis, is the CEO and co-founder of Flynncap, where he leads the team in creating top-not-financial solutions for businesses. He is also the brain behind CHEPWA. A savings and contributions app that follows the order of the traditional Nigerian Ajo system. Before founding his startups, Nathaniel worked with several organizations like Paxful, Dash and Yellow Group. He also, Digital, is the cash and Bitcoin is cash. Two books that provide comprehensive insight into the innovative solutions offered by cryptocurrency and blockchain in the modern banking industry. He is currently on the sad boot, Yaba Nobisilikan Valley, which contains a timely message for all startup founders and entrepreneurs in Nigeria. He is a dynamic and inspiring leader who fosters a culture of innovation, collaboration and excellence within his company. Thanks for joining me, Nathaniel. It's great to be here today. Alright, let's see if we can actually quickly run through what we have for this morning. Now, while the virus seems to have improved after the crackdown, crypto expert and investor say the entire episode has left a bitter taste in their mouths as regards investing in the country. What's the true picture? So whenever there is a ban on things like this, it affects confidence, right? So what the government has done is to use its better powers to go hard against Binance and that has actually negatively impacted the confidence of users, investors and everything. So there was actually an issue between the government and Binance, right? So there are blames on both sides, but dialogue is also going to be the way out of whatever we find ourselves in, right? So we feel like the issue shouldn't even have gotten to this point in the first place whereby we have Binance executives detained and all of that. And this just points to the fact that the government is saying that there are several crypto exchanges in Nigeria. Nigeria is the fastest growing crypto market in the world, but these exchanges are not compliant to the Nigerian government. These exchanges are not related with the Nigerian government. These exchanges do not have a relationship with the Nigerian government. So that's what the government is saying. The government is saying you cannot be processing billions of dollars in our market and there's no form of formal relationship between us. There's no form of licensing and there's no form of registration and you just do what you're doing in our market as though we actually do not, as though we don't exist. You know, you're just coming in here playing and going out what you cannot do in other markets without relating with the government agencies. So I think that's the issue and we're just going to look for a way forward from here. And the way forward is we need compliant exchanges and this is where home-grown solutions come to play, right? No one can understand you better than you understand yourself. No one can understand the modalities and the uniqueness of the Nigerian crypto market more than we Nigerians that play in this industry. So what we need to do is to come to the table with the government. What the government needs to do is to come to the table with us and also agree on a couple of things. The licenses have just been released some months ago. You know, quit space, quit sandboxes for startups to work with the government and say this is how we can build crypto compliant exchanges. And the reason is because if the government just chooses to use pressure and just ban and unban, what would happen is people would not stop using crypto. But all of this volume will be driven on the ground. So you'll see the rise of the P2P market, of the black market and all of that, but it doesn't have to get to that. We can have proper exchanges that are compliant. So I think that's the way forward. All right. Okay. Now, whether Binance has contributed to Nigeria's worsening economic picture is certainly up for debate. Although to the extent that lots of people have been commenting in Alberta, let's really talk about some other issues right now. It's worth noting that although the Nigerian government moves to block access to other crypto platforms, similarly, only Binance is under fire. What does this really mean to you? Binance was the largest exchange in the Nigerian market, any Nigerian P2P market. So if you were to have a regulatory conversation, I think you'd want to go to the biggest guy and speak to the biggest guy, you understand? And whatever applies to them, that applies to everybody, you understand? So I think that was why the government went over Binance. Binance was controlling a very huge chunk of the crypto and P2P market in Nigeria. Okay. You've talked about compliance now. I just want to find the way forward. Of course, these players are doing business in the Nigerian space and they have to follow regulatory framework and all of that. But what are the other key issues that we should be looking at in terms of ensuring that cryptocurrency or the crypto versions, it's just that takes its place here in Nigeria and indeed Africa. So first off, it's going to be very difficult to have one crypto super app globally, right? Because it's going to be very... and cryptocurrency exchange is a financial institution. So to have one exchange that's going to be compliant in Ghana, in Nigeria, in the UK, it's going to be really difficult. And this means that we need to see homegrown solutions in each case that cater for the needs of that region. You understand? Like, the Nigerian government has its own fears and its own worries. It's different from what the Kenyan government would have and the Kenyan government won't require according to their own situation. That's why at Flink App, we help OTC exchanges with the proper structure that they need to operate as proper exchanges. And we understand the uniqueness of the Nigerian market. For instance, the Nigerian market is not big on crypto spot trading or institutional trading or Bitcoin ETFs. Those are not a problem. In the US, most of the regulations are Bitcoin ETFs and all of this. But in Nigeria, it's on the P2P side. And the government is saying, if you're doing this amount of volume, we need to see this amount of KYC. We need to ensure that there is no terrorism financing happening here. We need to ensure that because of the volatile nature of the Naira to Dollar in the last few months, we need to ensure that people are not taking advantage of that to manipulate the rates, right? That's not a problem in Kenya, for instance. That's not a problem in Cameroon, but that's a major concern in Nigeria. The way forward is we need to power local exchanges in this region. You understand? I do not see a future where we have one super exchange globally. Okay, let me button. Nassanya, when you say we need to empower more exchanges, are you saying that we need to start getting more homegrown exchanges from the country and people get it into exchanges? But how possible and how lucrative is that? And I'm thinking it's something that should be very capital intensive. Actually not. It's not really on the capital side. It's more on the side that the government has to make this thing doable. For instance, they have to remove the fears. They have to make tax grants. They have to make startups know that, see, you guys can play in this space. You guys are safe. So it's more of a team of confidence. It's not really a team of capital. It's more of a team of, see, we trust you people. Go and do your thing. You need time to grow. If there are any issues, we will not ban you. We will call you to the table and discuss with you. And that's one of the things we're trying to do for a lot of OTC exchanges. See, there's a lot of volume happening in Nigeria. But it doesn't even pay us as a people because these things are not institutionalized, right? Meaning, even the OTC exchanges are doing all the straights. They can't raise funds. They can't build up. And people are just doing their things on WhatsApp and Telegram. There's no proper structure. The same things we do. It's just like the same businesses that are parents or an SME here and there. It's what people run everywhere in the world in Asia and cool and they build them into proper businesses that help hold the economy. You understand? You cannot have proper businesses when you don't have license. You cannot have proper businesses when you don't. It doesn't even pay the government in the long run, right? Because if you really want companies that will pay taxes, you really want companies that, these guys have to have money. I mean, if all I have is $800 and you're taxing me, I mean, how much could you get out of it? But if I have a hundred million error and you're taxing me, it's two different things, right? So what we need to do is to empower and support our local homegrown solutions like ThinkApp is currently doing. And we also know the partnership from the angle of the government that says, hey, you guys can be free to breathe, right? Speaking of this partnership now, Nassanya, so what's in the pipeline? So what conversations have the key actors have been doing in terms of juggling with the federal government to ensure that these structures and this confidence level that you're talking about have actually been discussed? Yeah, so we've actually been having conversations with the government dating as early as 2017, 2016 on crypto and the space with the SEC. We need that, you know. The SEC licenses were just released some months ago and a number of startups including Mine, ThinkApp, is planning on getting this license. But we also need to be sure that after this license, nobody will be banned because, I mean, and the license requires a one billion dollar bond of which you take 75% of that. Just basically like your normal PSSP license, I mean, be licensed and all those things. But we need to be sure that just like banks, I'd be sure that, okay, if we do this, even if there's an issue, there are ways to resolve it. Do you understand? But people also need to be sure that, see, if we must raise this fund and commit this amount of money to getting this license, there will be no surprises tomorrow. I think that's the point we are in. We don't want to pay for the license. But we just need to be sure that there would be no surprises going forward. Okay, because of government policies and sometimes how they could be very erratic. I understand the part that you were talking about. But as we move on right now, let's talk about the future, really, of the crypto currency, the bitcoins and all of that in Nigeria because Nigerians are actually very involved with all of the regulations, with all of the actions and inactions. How do you see crypto currency thriving in Nigeria? Let's say in the next five months, because some people right now might not really be investing as much as it is because of what's going around crypto generally globally. I would just say this is a chaotic situation and chaos is a period of builders. I see that we would see more people building more solutions. The usage of crypto in Africa cannot go down because crypto is a lifeline for Africans. For people in the West, the Gemini and Co, it's just a luxury that they talk ETFs. I know that we don't talk ETFs here because we don't have that luxury of time. If you're Nigerian, you can't send money to PayPal. You just grow up to realize that you've been caught out from the global financial system. So crypto is our way to connect back. So we don't even see crypto as, yeah, we invest in it, we trade it and all of that. But the first thing is that crypto gives us a leverage. If you send a payment to someone in India and receive a payment from China in five minutes, that's what crypto does for me. So crypto is more like my visa to the global economy. Which is why, whether you ban, you won't ban, you'll be banned, people would still use it because it's so been a damn need, not a once. I get a lot of that, Nathanya, but the question right now would be when can we see a situation where Nigerians can actually play in the crypto space and of course do all their transactions, even maybe make payments for local stuff with crypto as it is now because in my head, I'm thinking crypto is dollar denominated and some people have issues with that. Crypto is not only dollar denominated, it is fiat denominated. It just happens to be that dollar is the de facto currency of every country in the world. So if you want to import things, everybody is saying dollar. You want to do this dollar. You want to have a central standard which is why we actually use it. You can measure crypto in IRA. Crypto adoption is growing. We have the necessary investors. We have the necessary startups. All we just need in this part of the world, only thing missing is confidence. The confidence, it's the same reason why Nigerian startups incorporate in Delaware. You are here, you are making Niagara, but you are gathering it and paying hundreds and thousands of dollars every year. It's just the confidence, so what our industry lacks is the confidence and that confidence can only be created by the government. Okay, so as we round off now, as we round off from this particular discourse, let's talk about for investors right now. What would you say to them? Because over time we've talked about how you could actually just use crypto currency as a hedge for the future and all of that. But some people seem to have some sort of disbelief in the crypto, you've talked about them, chaotic situations and all of that, but for people who would want to be investing in crypto, what should they be looking at? What should they be hopeful of and just what exactly should be the main hope that you can give to them? So, I'm typically here for the long term and just like every asset class, gold, the precious metals, the gold, the silver, oil, commodities and all of that, real estate and all that, people tend to hedge on them and they can buy low and sell high. That's what everybody tends to do and people also try to do that with crypto and that's fine. The market is the market. For people who want to play the crypto market, just ensure that you're compliant, just ensure that you're only dealing with people you know because there are lots of KYC issues. So, we've seen issues in which people receive fraudulent Naira due to a certain transaction. So, just ensure that you're dealing with recognized exchanges. Ensure that you're dealing with compliant entities and in my opinion, I think you'll find do your normal due diligence if you want to make an investment. I mean, I don't offer financial advice. It's a cup of coffee if it goes not or it goes out. Alright, Mazur, a very big thank you to you. I've been speaking with Nataniel Loza who is the CEO and co-founder of FlinkAP and we have been looking at the binom situation in the country that needful compliance and how we can actually make the crypto work very well for us in Nigeria and indeed Africa. Ramosta, say a very big thank you to you, Nataniel, for joining us on the show this morning. Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. Yes, and that's the size of the show for today. Many thanks for being there. My name is Justin Akadounia. I'll see you again next time. Bye for now.