 This is Think Tech Hawaii. The immunity matters here. You may be asking yourself, what are we doing here on a given Monday at 12 noon? Well, it's obvious. This is Energy 808, the cutting edge. Wow, Will Geese here from the Hawaii Solar Energy Association to tell us all about that and to sort of connect it up. That's we always demand that will. We need to connect up. Sure. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming. No, thank you for having me. Yeah. Like you mentioned, I'm Will Geese. I'm from the executive director of the Hawaii Solar Energy Association. So the HSEA has been around for more than 40 years now. We are the oldest and largest renewable energy trade association in the state of Hawaii to my knowledge. I have been the director for about a year now. I was the development director before that and a policy advisor before that. So I've been involved in the Hawaii Energy landscape for three, four, four and a half years now. Yeah. What's your background before you came? No, yeah. So, actually, before this, I was a paramedic. That makes ultimate sense, too. Yeah, yeah. Real different. The way I see it and the way I explain it to people is like I was saving lives, you know, one at a time and now it's more. That's kind of the way I justify it. I have this pain, right? Right? Oh, yeah. I'm retired. But yeah, so before that, I was a medic, but my background in energy, you know, I got in my bachelor's from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, in environmental public policy and sustainable development. And I worked as a designer for SolarCity, which is a really big... That's... John Yoshimura was with them. Were you there at the same time? Yeah. John is the reason I have this job. I know. I'm kidding. Interesting. Yeah, John's a really good friend. Small world. Yeah, small world. But I was a residential designer, designed about three megawatts of residential products across the United States, so 11 different states. And then I got moved out here because I was good at my job. I wanted to move into policy. Leslie Cold Brooks, who was the director in 2015, was leaving. I interviewed for her job when she left. Didn't get it. But I got hired by Inner Island Solar Supply as their policy person in-house, which is a big distributor here. And then eventually, I was also working with HSEA as a policy advisor, worked my way up, got our membership back up to pre-2015 levels because we dropped a huge amount of members. And myself and the board worked pretty hard to get us back up to what we were at. And I was able to basically pay for my position and for the organization to function. And I've been in that position ever since. That's what you've got to do in nonprofits. Yeah. It may sound simple from the outside, but from the inside, it's critical. Yes. And then during that time, too, I also got my master's degree here at UH in Manoa through the PUBA program. In what? What is it? Public administration. PUBA is what they call it. Perfect. Yeah. Energy and PUBA. Yeah. I think it was the only energy guy that was in my graduating class, for sure. So I've been doing that for a while and the HSEA does a variety of things. So we represent 95% of the permit pulling industry in the state. We represent all companies from all islands in the state. So Kauai, Oahu, Maui, not Lanai or Molokai because there's not a lot of operating folks there. And then Big Island. And then we represent things from the community level up. So we're involved in neighborhood boards, HOA discussions. We're involved in city council stuff all the way up to docket things. So we're an intervener party in dockets, a lot of the PUC dockets. Should be. Yeah, should be, right? Yeah. How about legislation? Do you go down and make testimony? Certainly, yeah. So I'm a registered lobbyist as the director. And we are involved in maybe, I still gotta get my list done, but probably 30, 35 bills. Our big priorities this year are things like... You have time to be here because you have to leave. Just tell me. Yeah. I'm gonna call, you know, from somebody. I'll just step up. Hold his calls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, we're involved in all kinds of stuff at the ledge this year. I'm excited because it seems like a lot of changes have happened on the Senate and the House side, especially in leadership relative to the committees that we are involved in. Which are? So, energy on both sides of the big committees, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the chair, Representative Nicole Lohan, who was the vice chair of energy before when Rep Chris Lee was the chair, she is now the chair of energy on the House side. CPC is a big committee, so consumer protection, that's Representative Royce Cumming. Your constituents are out there talking to individual consumers, yeah. Right, right. And, you know, we have a consumer-facing product, right, so residential commercial. And then the money committees are always important on our side, especially with things that have to do, like, with tax credits. Credits, I thought you'd mention that. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So tax credits are always kind of everybody's favorite thing. The solar industry is lucky. We have a renewable energy tax credit that has really helped, you know, penetrate the market all across sectors by giving residents a tax credit to install solar on there. Oh, I'm so excited to be able to talk to you, Will. Yeah. So, okay, so how do you spend your day? We already know. I'm not going to ask that because we already know you told us. The question is really, what is the nature of your constituency now? How many members have you got? Sure. Mostly solar installers, am I right to say that? No, actually. I mean, so more than 50 percent of them are contractors and installers. Most of them are locally-based, our installer contractors, I think 80 percent of them are locally-based. But then we also represent manufacturers of products, power electronics, like inverters. We represent energy storage manufacturers. Here or from the mainland? The mainland. There aren't any inverter manufacturers. I was going to ask that my next question. Yeah. The only manufacturer that we represent here is R&R Solar Supply that also manufactures solar thermal collectors here. We represent Sun Earth, but they manufacture their collectors in California, but they have another arm that's a distributor. That's Kully Judd, isn't it? Yeah, Kully Judd. He actually helped start the HSEA. Sure, sure. A board emeritus member. Yeah. He's been there forever. Yeah. Well, I mean, a while. He's very experienced. We represent, like I was saying, the big, everyone's favorite energy storage company, Tesla. They're a member as well in space. It's good. You have a very robust group then. Yeah. Anyone who is interested in making solar happen. You're expanding. This is a big point. Yeah. This is the one you have to write down on your notes, is you're going into storage because storage is where solar is going. Am I right? Yeah, not just storage, but yes, definitely. I've made a huge effort in the last year to reach out to storage companies, not just Tesla because market diversity is important for storage. The more products there are, the cheaper it becomes for the consumer, and kind of the wider variety of things that you can buy. If you just want something for energy arbitrage for your home, or if you want something for off-grid, it'll be a different product. It's not just Tesla. It's folks like Simplify, which are kind of a robust low-voltage battery. We've looked at companies that aren't members yet, but like Aquian, which is now defunct, but it's a saltwater-based company. There's some flow batteries out there that are interested in coming, and a bunch of other lithium-ion-based companies. And then even the old stuff that was around in the 80s, 70s and 80s, lead-acid batteries, so outback. Yeah. It's a power electronics and a lead-acid battery manufacturer that we represent. And there'll be more. I guarantee. That was certainly. No, yeah. You're definitely right. I'm excited for solid-state batteries, so once all those patents clear, I'm sure they'll be coming here. The market calls every week from some new company that's looking to, one, get a picture of what the market's like. And I think I'm one of a handful of people, probably, that know the ins and outs of the market depending on which island you want to get into, so it's kind of a good base for them. And also what the HSEA provides them as a company, so it's a variety of things. Well, I'm very interested in the storage thing, and I was going to ask you, your members, your installer members who have been traditionally doing solar panels on the roof sort of thing, they would be remiss in their duty if they did not suggest storage, too. Did they not propose a package or an arrangement, whatever, including storage, no? I agree. And also it would be pretty tough for them to find an interconnection agreement or an interconnection program that doesn't either require storage or at least imply that you need it to work. So pre-2015, there was only net energy metering, which doesn't need storage. Just a flat one-for-one rate that you get. Over, over, over. Right. It's not coming back. It's done. It's not coming back. Yeah. And so since then, we've had a series of new tariff programs starting with customer self-supply, which is non-exporting tariff. Is that working? Yeah. So I think it's probably the biggest program after customer grid supply, which is like NEM, but at a cheaper rate, basically. And then customer self-supply. And then last, so in 2000, oh man, I'm forgetting, 2017, in October, we opened the smart export program and the customer grid supply plus program. So customer grid supply plus is the easier one to understand. It's like customer grid supply, which is like NEM, but at a lesser rate than customer grid supply. That one's pretty simple. And then there's smart export, which is a kind of a hybrid customer grid supply. Time of day sort of thing. Yeah. Time of use, right? Yeah. So you're allowed to get a credit on energy exported at peak times. So from 4 p.m. to 9 a.m., if you're exporting energy onto the grid, you get credited for that. And then from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m., you do not get credited for any energy. Do you think that will be the one that prevails? It's my hope that it is. I'd like to see a tariff that, you know, like just kind of a, I'd like to have a long-term sustainable, you know, 20-year tariff that incorporates time of use, things like grid services, which are services that systems can provide to the grid outside of just exported energy. All of those kinds of things, I'd like to see a kind of long-term tariff. And I think smart export is the first step in getting there. I was actually on the working group that developed it. Oh really? Working group for what? For the, so that tariff was developed within the distributed energy resources docket, which is an ongoing docket since 2014 in the PUC's docket process. And that's part of the PUC, no? Yeah, so the PUC runs the dockets, so the regulatory arm. And they have working groups. They do. They do. And they're on that working. I was on that one, yeah. Very nice. Yeah. Very nice. Well, it's the right thing, the right person. So what strikes me too is that going forward, you know, technology is going to drive so much of this. Sure. And, you know, the one that the system that prevails, the technology that prevails. So you've got to be up on everything that happens, because you speak for a lot of, how many installers you have? Just installers now. Hundreds. No, not hundreds. I mean, we only have 92 member companies, but of, you've got to understand. That's the whole community though, in terms of the installers. It's the entire, yeah, that's 95% of the industry, right? So you've got to understand that when NIM was going on, there were about 300 companies that were installing. They went out of business. Right. Now it's about 120, and about the top five of those installers in that 120 install 70% of the systems. So, you know, it's definitely contracted since NIM ended by a lot. Wow. And I represent all of them. So, you know, going forward, technology is going to drive it. You have to be akamai about the technology. Try to be. Aspire. You must. You must. Yeah. And I have to see what's coming down the pike. In terms of the new technologies, but the companies that are going to design the new technologies and how that's all going to integrate. This is not easy, but it's tremendous value, not only members of the Solar Energy Association, but also to the public. So there are various things that are happening. Are you involved? Do you deal with the issue of community so with the issue of condominiums, you know, which have a kind of small footprint and still want to have solar? What's happening with that? Yeah. It's convenient that you mentioned this because I just came to this from giving a report to one of the legislators that was interested in hearing about it. So two Fridays ago, they had a technical conference in the community-based renewable energy docket to the stakeholders, which is we are a party. And then they released this independent observers report on the status of all those projects. So we're in phase one, or the pilot phase of CBRE, where a small amount of contractors are bidding on a small amount of projects at a small capacity limit to the three service islands. So when I read it this morning, there have been 12 projects by three developers that have been bid. Nothing has signed a standard form contract and no one has signed an interconnection agreement. So there's nothing being built yet. I think it's important, though, to remember that we've based a lot, especially the standard form contract, we've based a lot on Minnesota's Successful Community Gardens project. And it took them about two years to get up and running. And we've been in this phase, this bidding phase, for about less than a year. So I think we're still on track to see it. And I, as an apartment dweller, really want this to be successful, right? Because I'm the customer that they're looking for. There are thousands and thousands of condo, what do you call it, condo projects in the state of Hawaii. And I think most people in those condo projects want to have the benefit of you for all kinds of reasons. Yeah, and I think, you know, the thing about it is it's, on one side, it's getting developers to be able to develop those projects and find what's called subscriber organizations that can sign folks up. But then also having, you know, Hiko being involved as an administrator and saying, you know, here are your projects available to you if you want to choose to participate them. Make it very easy and streamlined for those folks to participate and have, you know, a big uptake of customers for these programs. We'll see how it goes. I'm optimistic because I just don't think we can get to 100% without feeding that sector of the market. I absolutely agree with you. Yeah. There's so many people involved in that sector. And we can't, we can't rest on our laurels, we can't be complacent about this. We have to keep going, keep going, keep expanding the percentage for sure. So what about these big utility projects? This is my last question before the break. These big utility projects, which, you know, the utility is organizing. And you know, involve, you know, football fields worth of solar. Is your constituency getting involved? I've always felt that it should. I've always felt that, you know, there could be combinations of installer companies that could make joint proposals even for large solar projects and get involved in some of these big ones instead of having the main, I know, you know, solar city and all that, instead of having the mainland companies go and do that. Why can't we do it at home? I don't think there are any local utility scale developers yet. Most of them are mainland based. You know, I was quoted in GreenTech Media, which is a big kind of utility trade publication as saying that the prices for these PPAs when they came out were mind-blowing. That was like their headline. And that's, I mean, I talked to this person for a while and I said a lot of other things, too. That was the one thing they pulled out. But what I said after their mind-blowing is that I really want to know what the end-user consumer benefit is going to be. And we have these just phenomenally low PPA prices, 7.8 cents. That's pretty good. I think it was one of them. Based on what all that's happened up to this point is pretty good. It's incredible. But, and the caveat is that, you know, we're all, HSA is all for this kind of stuff. But the thing is, you know, when all those PPAs get figured out at the regulatory level, what will be the cost savings to the consumer? We ought to be on the ball with the regulators, with these companies that are involved in it to make them say, you know, here's what's the benefit the consumer is going to be. Here's how we're going to lower their electric bill. Because ultimately, you know, I still believe that distributed energy resources and solar thermal is one of the greatest ways that you can immediately impact your electric bill once you've installed the system. Right? And so these PPAs, while good, just we need to have some follow-through on them. And that's kind of my one caveat to these just mind-blowing low prices. There is a benefit to the public, though, if you have the utility controlled or owned or operated solar farm, because that means I don't have to come up with $40,000 to have the benefit of renewables. It's being provided by the utility for me. So guys like me who are not going to have it on the roof can at least enjoy it derivatively through these large solar installations. I think you could say, well, yes, yeah. I mean, so like me maybe, you know, I live in an apartment and I can't buy something because I don't own a roof. And then where would I come up with that amount of money? I do think that there's a lot of competitive leasing programs and $0 down financing available for folks that want to get it. So I think the entrance to the market is a little bit easier than it was before and the cost is much lower too. That's one point. The other point is that, yeah, I think it's good that utilities are able to control this. But as we also build out DER, you know, we can look at the grid services that aggregated DER brings and it can provide a lot of the same benefits too. So we just kind of need to figure out the locationality of both of these resources and take a look at it and do a cost benefit analysis and say, this is the right choice for the way forward. So that's how I'd like to plan. Yeah, I want to add one more point which has to be stirred into this pot. And that is, you know, we have extreme weather coming. Right. Where, you know, there's the possibility that the grid in general will go down. And that's a problem because then, you know, we don't have electricity. But if we have that $40,000 unit on top of our house with storage and all that, that independence will save us as far as energy is concerned. So there is an obviously an ongoing need to have, you know, a fair amount of independence in case of extreme weather, which is likely to come. This year is an El Nino year. Watch out. Yes. I am watching. Comments on that? Oh yeah, lots of comments. I don't want to reach into our break here, but you know, I worked with the Hawaii energy or emergency management agency under my graduate degree. One of the things that's really shocking to me is that if hurricane lane were to hit, right, you know, minimum amount of time that our grid would be knocked out is two weeks. And that is just, I don't think people understand the gravity of that. That's very grave. Yeah. And I do think you're right. You know, if you can afford that kind of system, it's beneficial to you. But also, you know, as we build out more distributed energy resources, we can aggregate those together so that the people that don't have them yet can be able to use them within like a micro grid scenario, right? And each one of those systems is resilient, right? And if one goes down, it doesn't mean the other one will. If one utility scale project goes down or if one utility generator goes down, that's it, so it's back up, right? And so you can kind of offset some of those costs and impacts by having more DR on the grid, in my opinion. Wow, what an opinion. That was enough to... We need a minute to think that over, okay? We're gonna take a minute off. We're gonna come right back. We're Will Geesey. We're gonna talk about the Hawaii Solar Energy Association. And after this break, we're gonna talk about what it's doing in the ledge and what it wants to see happen in regulation and in legislation. Wow, do we have enough time? Yes, we do. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Rusty Kamori, host of Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. My show is based on my book, also titled Beyond the Lines. And it's about creating a superior culture of excellence, leadership, and finding greatness. I interview guests who are successful in business, sports, and life, which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness. Join me every Monday as we go Beyond the Lines at 11 a.m., aloha. Hi, I'm Lisa Kimura. I'm the host of Family Affairs on Think Tech Hawaii. Join us every Tuesday at 11 a.m. to talk about the issues that really matter, everything from policies that need to be changed in Hawaii to the fact that we need better gender equality so that we can all have a better shot. Again, join us every Tuesday at 11 on Think Tech Hawaii for Family Affairs. Aloha. Okay, now you probably wanna know what we talked about during the break, and I'll tell you, I'm gonna tell you, it was mostly me. I was telling Will Casey that it's very important that we not have amnesia, that we have to remember our goals. We have to remember what we studied before, learned before, concluded before, did before, so that we can move on forward. We can never forget. That's very dangerous, especially in times where sea change is changing all around us, where the energy environment globally is changing all around us. We have to be mindful of this. We have to have the same, God forgive this, the same energy that we had before. Forgive the pilot. So, you know, what's the way to excite that? Okay, one of these, one way would be by, you know, you guys going down the ledge arguing for bills and changes or to the contrary, and same thing with the PUC, but how do you plan to keep it excited so we keep on the track? Lots of ways. So, part of what I've been doing as the director is reaching out to other organizations that might not have coordinated so closely with HSE that have a bigger constituency of people that are also interested in this. So, folks like the Sierra Club, I think Marty Townsend as the director over there is doing a fantastic job representing her folks there and she's a really good asset to have in the clean energy space. I think Blue Planet is a really big player too that, you know, not normally the HSEA is really kind of coordinated with industry folks and industry trade groups like ourselves, but I'm trying to reach out to those other groups that are also affiliated with energy folks and build that network. So, I think that's part of it because the more people that I can bring in that are interested and push those ideas, you know, the more chance that I'll have to have it pass at the legislature and just build good energy policy. The other thing that I wanna do this year which the HSEA hasn't done in a while is have a lobby day where I'm gonna bring at least 100 HSEA members. So, these are folks that like, the folks that are working up, they're putting on their work boots every morning getting on the roof and they're building stuff, right? Because when it's just me at the legislature, you know, I think something a little bit gets lost. Yes, I represent all these member companies, you know, as the HSEA, but who are these people that work, you know, in your group? Who are the people that you represent? You wanna see these boots on the third floor of the Capitol? I'm gonna bring them in in HSEA. Let's see what they look like. Yeah, I'm gonna bring them in, have them talk to their legislators, you know, and have a big meeting. Bring some panels. Yeah, bring some panels. Have them like, I want them to talk. I talk all the time. You know, I want them to go and tell them what they want. That's a good idea. Right? Yeah, and I want those legislators too to see, you know, it's not just me, I'm not just some corporate stooge coming around. I represent folks that have good jobs in the state are participating in the economy and live here and work here and wanna build a clean energy economy. That's who I represent and that's why I wanna bring to the ledge. So I wanna do things like that, right? And I'm planning on doing that in March, so lots of different ways. And then the last thing is, you know, I'm trying to coordinate with all the other industry groups. You know, I and several other folks, we just kinda get together and we strategize about what the best clean energy policy is gonna be and how we can kind of avoid stepping on each other's toes so that we can come with one voice. The legislature is very important. I hope you can put that voice together, I really do. There's so many people involved and, you know, in Hawaii now, we can talk things to death and not get anything done sometimes and this isn't a good example of we're not to do that to actually get something done. So in the ledge this year, what about credits? What's happening? What's in play? So, you know, the HSEA is kind of somewhat stepped off the credit train. We've been fighting an energy storage tax credit as long as I've been around and probably a lot longer. You know, I think if we had a standalone energy storage tax credit, that would be awesome. But I think there's also other ways to incentivize energy storage through things like rebates and whatnot. And I also think there's other fish to fry too. So, you know, carbon pricing is a really interesting concept depending on the way that it works. I don't know, it's a long push. I hope that it happens. And if you read the IPCC report like I did, you know that it's necessary, right? And, you know, I remember last year when I was reading this internal report came out about this group that gets all the utilities together and they like pull them and they also pull utility customers and ask them what they want. Turns out that utility customers, more than 50% of them will accept a 30% increase in their utility bill to have a renewable portfolio standard, which makes it more popular than almost any other thing that ever gets passed. I don't think there's any question about that. I really, really believe that. There's not. And the only question is, you know, it's like you get all these ads about people are running for president and all that. That's nice. But how do you actually make your wishes happen? Right. That's the same thing here. What do you do? And maybe it's send in some testimony on a given bill. Maybe it's get out in the state capital and go with your program there on the third floor or whatever. It's a matter of speaking out on it because this is to me directly related to the health of our energy and our energy is the health of our economy and so forth. I wonder about one idea and oppose one idea. Maybe it's old hat and say it's old hat. Just tell me. But you know, we need incentives. And sometimes, honestly, the people in the square building forget about the value of incentives. They should be thinking about incentives all the time. To change the way people think, to change the way people act and to get them together on a given point. Get the whole community together. And one way, of course, is with money. With tax credits and all that. But you know, it strikes me that we need some incentives on charging stations and all that. So I wonder if your members are incentivized or interested in or are maybe actually doing an arrangement where you have, you have A, the solar panels, B, the storage equipment and C, right into the mix, a charging station right there in their homes. Is this happening? Is it possible? Is it worthy? Yeah, so interesting you bring this up because this is the first session that I think I'm going to get involved in these bills. Partly because the HSEA is kind of expanding its mission to include EV charging infrastructure, data aggregators and people like that. We realized that it's new. It's different than it was 40 years ago. And so, yeah, I think a lot of our installers either benefit from EV charging infrastructure because they sell things like EVs or they actually install them and build them, right? Or they create power electronics that go to them. Ultimately, what I'd like to see is if these EV charging stations are put up, I'd prefer them to be powered by renewable. But I also think that, you know, there's two parts to this. One part is that as the amount of EVs go up, you need to have to, you also have to increase the amount of EV charging infrastructure in the state or you meet this kind of level where there's this much EV charging infrastructure, this many EVs and they just can't have more, right? Because there's just not enough chargers. You can't let that happen. Right, and then also I think, you know, there's an ancillary benefit to electrifying the grid, right? And having things like that. So imagine being able to drive your Tesla or whatever, your leaf somewhere downtown and it charges for a really cheap rate. But then, you know, the utility company or preferably a third party aggregator is able to use that energy too to benefit the grid if it needs it. You know, obviously you don't wanna cycle your batteries all the time because that lowers your battery life. But to be able to use it or have that potential to use it and then be paid for it as a consumer, that is gonna incentivize you to buy an EV, right? But you need energy, electric vehicle charging infrastructure in order to do that. And that infrastructure has to be smart, right? So yeah, we are definitely on board with that kind of stuff and I think it's just kind of a part of the whole energy economy. Yeah, strikes me that's a win-win because A, you're having more affordable tech and more battery storage for that matter. And B, you're incentivizing or encouraging EVs. Everybody wins on that one, everybody, yeah. Well, I mean, it's been great visiting with you. Yeah, likewise. I must say, well, you know, I know you were a very shy child. But maybe it was your time with John Yoshimura helped you out. Yeah. And you're probably your time with Marco Mangelsdorf after that too. Probably. But look at you now. Yeah, here I am. Thanks for coming down. Thank you, Jay. Appreciate it. Will Casey, the president of the Hawaii Solar Energy Association. Executive director. Executive director of the Hawaii Solar Energy Association. Great to have you here. Thank you. Bye-bye.