 Right, so this is a really short roundup of the various ways in which we Distribute software on KDE and Jonathan's gonna start us up KDE is now all about the applications. We make many fine applications We make many or decent applications and we make a few kind of rubbish applications And we should care about making sure that our applications get to the users the users get a good experience and The first thing we need to do is actually tell the users what applications we make So I spent some time earlier working on some earlier work done by Harold To actually get an up-to-date website listing all of the applications and projects and there's 183 of them And they're finally listed on our website. This feels like like a Important project that should have been done yonks ago and for some reason hasn't been done And there's still lots of work to be done. What's on my slides? Yes, there's still lots of work to be done for it. So firstly people need to pay attention to what's on here Make sure that the screenshots are up-to-date and the icons are up-to-date and that the icons are complete in the breeze icon theme and This doesn't yet link to app stores it links to AppStream URLs, which is here's a generic ID for the Program But which distributions actually use those and which package managers use those are not quite sure URL specification itself was kind of broken. So we were probably the first people to use it and We had to get fixes into the specification for it to be used which are still working their way into discover our software manager So we now have a shiny list of everything that we actually make Including a manually maintained list of the un-maintained ones because we don't have a good way of saying well this software is no longer useful and it's no longer maintained so Time to say that's that's done with but we don't have a good way to do that in the in the categorization that already exists for the programs because of Obscure reasons with the translations and whatnot. So I also have to maintain a list of Of un-maintained applications, which feels like a definite clutch in our process But given that the AppStream data you feel free to comment if you if you have a comment Given that the AppStream data that we use to make this website Then gets used by the app stores. It means that you fix it once there It gets fixed everywhere here It is a known software manager where they promoted a shake and pre recently a good choice The title should be called AppStream gets around I think This is that image. Yeah So we're not very good at telling Projects why they should become kiddie-y projects why they should join our community and get through that a slight bureaucratic hurdles rather than Rather than just throw it on on GitHub or whatever and there's all these good reasons, but we're not terribly good at Providing those good reasons to the different projects And then we get about as far as here at the Mim minute Releasing the software where we tend to dump a terrible But we're not very good at doing the post-release stuff and making sure it gets to users and making sure that it updates Yeah, so you make a tar and maybe you tell Albert to do it To take care of releasing it or they release it themselves and maybe you write a blog But then how do you actually get to the users? We as KD community need to start caring a lot more about making sure our software gets the users in a useful way so the Most popular way for getting to users. We'll have Luca talk to us Okay, I'm covering this from a slightly different perspective because many of you know about software distributions. I'm talking about the fact that the traditional way of providing a Software to the users it's a little more than getting a Tarball doing some fancy magic and getting out a package, which is a RPM dab Tarball, whatever you want. Basically What do integrators? I say integrators because distributions are integrators But also other projects like the lemak lemak was kind of integrated as well Is made to ensure consistency and safety for a system compatible licensing It sounds like easy, but especially with historical code base KDPM as a very prominent example that it has problems integration with underlying system, which means will you the will this library work with your software or it will break in unexpected ways and Lastly to make sure that the binary is exactly The same given the same table. This is an effort by Debian and other projects to do this kind of thing recently there have been some Contrasts between upstreams and downstreams over the way the right way to do Software how to distribute it you did you do this wrong? No, you are doing this wrong and whatnot but it turns out That well everyone is actually making mistakes all the time, it's human and Both upstreams and downstreams. This is famous the famous SSH vulnerability in Debian from about more than 10 years ago that basically broke the security of nature a bad patch this one is more recent is a Mistakley playlist for your famous table and you're ending up in cadena neon Of course, I'm not pointing fingers. This is the thing I thought but I'm I'm personally broke cute in your pencil So I'm not blame myself upstream for example K Stars had for a number of Months and her helper for chaotic it was basically omnipotent that we could do anything To your system directories. It was very moved because it wasn't working lucky for its intended purpose, but it was a very fight to your system Or this one is actually a field of both upstreams and downstreams There was a local privilege escalation in K-World Pam well, no one noticed upstream and Not even the downstreams because they shipped it without noticing it came up when doing I do when packaging it in open Suzy a number of months ago Okay, I say Do not fight cooperate because no one will have the perfect recipe to deliver software which means Even upstreams and those things can have different opinions and still cooperate on this for example There are a couple of examples here when I see that upstream and upstream cooperate. Well, this one is about a few years Yes, older when the novel driver was there a plasma would freeze and both people from the plasma team and from the open Suzy a KDA team actually Fixed it. This one is a very big implementing here one minute. Okay, and People that actually contributes Other code fixes everywhere so No, let's not forget the people that work downstream like myself. I'm mainly do packaging Can actually go upstream there are people that were in the work in the distance got a KDA developer account And then can actually improve the software directly And we are also testing with different configuration that we can't can't fathom at well So the the meta is let's work together to improve software It's not necessarily mean that we have to agree with everyone all the time Got the time. Yeah, right Who's next Oh Up images are awesome. You should all use it. That's it. Thank you It was well, I mean spray is it one file one app everything in that single file and the whole point is That it's simple. It's simple to obtain. It's simple to maintain once that there's the infrastructure to create up images continuously There are of course issues and there are security issues that should be accounted for not just with the format itself with the software with the libraries and one way to Have a solution for it is to use farge L we act in nitrox, which is building an exhibition that me and my body's over there develop we utilize farge L to do this unboxing There are some notable app images available already Great tank it and live are Notable examples of them. There are social non Katie apps such as Libre office. There is gimp. There is The issues and there are many other uplander is also an app image It doesn't require installation because it's just one file. It's it's a cutable. You just download it and Add the permissions for it and it's going to run. There's no runtime. There's no Store to just download it and run it additional desktop integration is something that The app image developers are working on typically to just download a file, but it doesn't get integrated into the Into the desktop environment like you don't get a an icon on the menus. You don't get something like Dolphin service to date the app image so there are programs like app image D which which monitors the directories where the app images are stored There is that the measure launcher which helps with integration with the desktop environment and There's the newly app image services, which basically aims to unify everything else Another point with the app images is that there is in a central store basically like the whole gist of it is that you that you the developer developed application you put the target ball and Using continuous integrations such as Travis CI kid like CI you build the app image and The user gets it directly from you without any intermediaries and No, that's not mine Okay, so we're coming to similar technology like up image. We have flat back flat back is a framework to Or make a pretty girl a pretty girl for running desktop and running and distributing desktop Applications on Linux The applications unlike up image. They run in a sandboxes environment, which means they are isolated from your system and which has a security benefits, of course You cannot have complete sandboxing because the application wouldn't have access to network or some other stuff So we need to make holes or For some other stuff we have portals to access files outside the sandbox and The idea of flat pegs to make everything as easy as possible So with flat pegs you can run run it everywhere and build it built it everywhere Fastback has this concept of run times Where the most common basic libraries are in the runtime. That's just like the base package and You just build applications on top of that adding just some specific libraries required for the specific application and It's You can run it on almost every distribution and same as goes for building You don't need to install anything on your distribution. You just install the runtime and SDK which has so all the libraries and Completers and everything so the builds are reproducible So if you build it managed to build one flat peg on one distribution it will build on Every other distribution where you have flat peg and then we have flat flat up which is Like the main repository of for flat pegs. It serves as a repository and build service and It's managed by flat peg people and also I think by people from endless It can be used so by everyone you can simply add this repository to every distribution where you have flat peg and you can simply add your application there and maintain it The flat peg manifest which are like the recipes for building flat pegs. Everything is hosted on github So you have access to all the flat pegs. So after all the manifest you can send pages to all the application you can found there and Maintain your application there. It's a really easy and You can use of that have to build it and distribute your application it's also pre-installed or on On many I think some distribution already have flat have enabled by default for example in Fedora, I think and last time I counted there are 36 KD applications like Dolphin, Krita, Aquilar, Conversation and besides KD applications they are like Spotify, Steam, Telegram, so the most common ones and Go a bit into flat peg details The format flat peg uses OS 3 which is like a git for distributions So it has all the benefits of git or you can go back to previous versions You when you like updating you just download the diff so you don't always have to download the whole application again again for new updates You can also host your repositories. It's Because like git you can you just build the application you can upload it everywhere and anyone can use it as a repository Okay, so that's it For more information if you want we have both on Thursday in the morning, so we want to discuss more flat peg Okay Acoustics is really bad. Hello Igor from canonical. Thank you for coming to the session I want to talk to you about snaps and snap craft Lovely image what we have is self-contained applications that can run on little distributions that support snaps We have three musketeers. We have the snapd service which enables the functionality We have the snap user space component so they can install and run your Applications and then we have the snap store where all the applications are hosted and originate from and finally we have snapcraft the command line tool to actually build applications So snap craft is a pretty nifty thing. We use files in the yaml format So if you know yaml, we can start building your applications to be Distributable as snaps then we have backends that are based on virtual machines or containers You can use both depending on your setup. You can do local builds You can do remote builds in our in our system if you don't have resources and built for other architectures in total six architectures You can also use an interactive build system that we have available online Then once you have built your applications, you push them to the store The store is a web front-end is discoverable by millions of users and not just to go into folks Although we support to go into from 14.04 onwards. We also support 41 other distributions So if you have Manjaro if you have fedora if you have sent to us Debian You're also welcome to use applications and all software is welcome to the store So once you have published your application There is the maintenance part which is not negligible and there is an element of updates and an element of Reliability for the end users. So you have transactional automatic updates if there is a fail failure There's gonna be a rollback which means that you retain the functionality and you do not disrupt your user sessions You can also do parallel install so you can test your application as developers or as users You can have multiple versions in at the same time running in parallel For instance, you can install two instances of ocular and they'll be completely separate applications Once you have your users, you can track metrics You can track your usage by version by distribution So you can actually see how your application is trending Correlated to your social media activities or other ways how you promote applications. By the way, we can help you with that as well 94 KD applications at the store and counting working closely with Jonathan here Then working closely with other members of the KD community We have a build snap which simplifies the build process. We have plugins for many programming languages. We have CMake. We have All sorts. We'll talk about it a little more. We have content snaps So once you distribute a KD application, you don't get the whole bunch of megabytes It's all contained in one elegant snap and your application is just a delta on top of that very elegant for streamline distributions How much sorry one minute. No problem. There's also an experimental plasma desktop So you can actually try that as a snap and there's a KD extension That's in the pipeline so that everything I've mentioned will be even simpler Here's a visual representation of what it looks like when you use the content snap basically you declare it and The KD guys have done all the magic for you. So you streamline and save time as I mentioned KD extension That's coming tomorrow. There's a buff. We'll be doing software distribution how you build snaps. You're welcome to join the session Thank you for your time Next slide and So when we launched KD neon we looked at how KD software was Compound and distributed and we thought well we can bring modern techniques to it the continuous integration the continuous development Continuous quality assurance the continuous deployment And do it for not just the stable stuff But also directly from get so that it can be used as a as a developer tool and a testing tool I Think there's my own decided. Yep. So so we have it build from towers. We build from get and it's available as apps packages and And there's Docker images and we also build the snap packages now Now building the snap packages in neon is done because it's convenient and the infrastructure was there But it should be done more integrated into the applications rather than in a in a separate standalone KDE project But we were definitely keen to bring Application Development and deployment directly into KDE so yeah craft is a kind of a Package manager for Windows Mac it originates from K on Windows It was mainly sauce base. So you had to compare everything from sauce since a few years we got binary packages that are Basically a cache so you run build Kate and you'll get a Kate Set up within a few minutes even with not the fastest interconnection We support Windows Mac and Yeah, that's the way how to get this get started on Windows Mac To have with that we also have the binary factory Which is basically Si for 90 builds for those platforms in the beginning It was only Windows now We got also Mac and all the other platforms like flat pack and Android is also hosted there. So For Windows Mac point you can point users there to get their installer for those platforms Not everything is stable and even if you ask us to put the software on this page You not support on this platform that means you get an installer But you're supposed to test yourself for yourself and say yeah, it's working and if it say uploaded somewhere else and Tells you to users On Windows you usually have an installer which is in binary that just copies files in some locations That the old way how we distribute the software We are currently working on getting software into the store case starts is currently the only application there but we are working on getting firstly updates for case stars and of course we try to get Kate and other application to the store because that's more convenient to reach users and Yeah for Mac we don't have support for the store yet. We can create DMG images. So They aren't science. They're still room for improvement But users can install them and run them locally and it should work as Same as with Windows, please test your application before you promote it as working and Down directly linked to binary factory and those are rolling releases or just nightly is that arms table links For the store, that's a different topic. We need to find solution there. So that's not only code signing But also you're not allowed to use all APIs. We do use currently so Could get hard Next one I just wanted to include everything in here because there are many different distribution channels that are users these days We'll expect us to use and if we don't then the users will not care about us And so steam is very popular distribution channel for games and graphic stuff and We use it for Krita and shake and breeze as you know And so so we only have one app there and yet here's a great way to distribute our software that we're not making use of And that seems to shame Incidentally Krita has been on there for quite a while and it's going very well It's one of their biggest income sources and and could have a business model around this as well, which is great Similarly for Google Play, there's a very popular app store very popular way for softwares to get distributed and we have k-stars and we do have shaken pretty right and Not much else there kitty connect, of course But again, there's a popular way for people to get software and we should make sure that we use it F droid another way for people to get software It's more aligned with our ethos and and community spirits and freedom And yet we only have one app there rather than all of our apps And again the Apple app store as as Hannah said is not much used but allegedly Krita is on there It's hard even to know what's on there because you can't braze this on the web Right, and I'm going to try and run through get hot news stuff In about two minutes it used to be owned by a company called hi-vo one and was very recently sold to a separate entity to the KDE EV But it is legally bound to the EV which means that KD now has complete control over the KD store There is this the only reason it cannot be Moved over is something which aligns perfectly with our goal of privacy we there is a strong Personal data protection legislation in Germany, which means that that data cannot go to the EV it has to be kept in that separate entity Get hot new stuff itself is a free desktop dog specification Which is an XML based specification for Content delivery and review And everything surrounding that sort of thing. It is entirely content type agnostic You've all run into it for there. There's a little star on a button and it says get something that's get hot new stuff Anyone can upload new content to the store It is currently It is now being put under the same umbrella It's now all store KD org, but they used to be some hundred and thirty odd websites They still all exist, but they now point to their store it's also used to be basically just controlled by a small nondescript set of people who Happen to look at it and be able to remove stuff from the store. There is now a Socially involved process by which people can, you know Ask for things to be marked as wrong or yeah, there's a proper feedback System for it now We have a revenue sharing system, which is a strange thing for something which isn't a technically a store There is no way of actually buying stuff on there But any One in here who has uploaded stuff to the store will have noticed a Bit on the site that says plings Which is a way of measuring? How many downloads you've had over the course of the previous month and then you get a share of? The revenue that the store has brought in via advertising If you want to know more I have a chat in about an hour and a half over there and Yeah So the more directly related item in this talk would be discover And discover is our own application and add-on manager It is installed anywhere that you have a plasma desktop, which means it's an open suzer We discovered recently that it is also on the if you install the plasma desktop Met a package on Debian you also have it. It's on Netrunner and Kabuntu and all bunch of other places as well and Obviously it's the primary software center on Katie Neon It has support for consuming all of the things that all of the people here have just talked about Including the one that I just talked about as well. It is a central place for Handling all of your con all of your applications and your add-ons. It is not a package manager But that's something we can go into a bit more But it is what users will expect it to be in these days, which is Displays applications and all their other add-ons and all the other goodies that users will care about so When we use these channels to ship our stuff to our users We need to care about it after we've done the terrible need to care about it and take on the new responsibilities. So that includes Security announcers making sure that the software is updated But also there's there's money that can be involved and we have to make the choice for applications Whether or not we want to we want to monetize them in some way or other and at the moment the the KD Doesn't have very good structures or doesn't have any structures for supporting that Jake and pre does monetize their app But he has to do it all himself, right and and we need to find a way within KDE that applications can can decide in an open and transparent way in what way they're going to monetize their app and Who's going to then decide what to do with money and when and that's something we should embrace and we shouldn't be scared of it We should embrace it and do it in an open way that works for the best Works for the best for our application maintainers and then we Can't even decide which way to name the KDE applications bundle and this is an example of this sort of Problem where where it's a relatively trivial matter But because we don't have a process for deciding how to how to solve it Then it just gets stuck and we end up with a case where well We have a website that this for the KDE applications but we also release the KDE applications thing and the name is duplicated and It feels a bit confusing, but there's no process within KDE for solving that and as I said earlier There's no process remark and stuff is un-maintained and we've got to make sure we remove the stuff when it no longer becomes useful So we have a panel now. How does this work? One minute to spare Microphone microphone, please. Yes Also, if you would like to think about some questions, awesome Leo talked about the Italian catalog. We're not there either That is very true. We are not on that catalog. There is zero KDE apps there We could have a hundred percent of KDE apps there. Yeah As far as I understand Jonathan Riddle here has just spent some time in Westminster talking to governmenty people With that's something that Unfortunately, the UK government has more important issues on its mind than free software, which is a shame But opens horse certainly needs to as a as an ethos and there's a lot of work to get that Into the sphere of government. We need to take every opportunity we can to get it into the sphere of government Including issues like well, how do you actually get an install this software? Well now we have answers for how do you get our software? And why you should use it and and who are KDE and we should be able to embrace governments when whenever we have the possibility Questions. Yep So this is about the the social social Responses like user content on the on the apps themselves. They have a generic policy on Whether or not you retain the right to reuse this content because as you said there were 150 websites previously Obviously the reuse of that content potentially inside other applications that on a context may not be arranged very well or it may be And that that is yeah, very very good question Yeah, it's not very clear in a lot of ways, but every piece of content on the KDE store has an explicit license and it is Suggested that that License should be a free software license of some description There is an entry for proprietary But as far as I'm aware very very few entries have chosen that one Which means that there is things like it's usually a creative commons license if it is content Which then is the reuse of the content is then that's explicitly Stated in which particular version of the creative commons license you've picked Then there's the various DPL type licenses as well So yeah, it's explicitly Stated for each piece of content Not sure if I'm going off-topic from your question But I interpreted it as how do you who decides what gets to be on which distribution channel and who decides on the rights over it And for KDE neon that's easy We ship anything with in KDE and so that decision gets taken by the KDE community and those processes sometimes can be slow and bureaucratic the Incubator it's easy to get stuck there KDE review. It's easy to get stuck there as I say it's Hard surprisingly hard to get it listed as un-maintained But so we could do with making that a lot smoother Yes So how do you get who decides what gets on the snap store and and who looks after it? Well, I guess it's up to the developer to decide what's the easiest way for them to distribute their software after all It's their product. It's their users and I wouldn't say that this needs to be Anything else than the convenience and loyalty to your users. So whatever you find most convenient that should be your choice And based on the most critical factors that you have for your software is its retention Is there a ability of the software? Is it how difficult it is for you to package and distribute is the social elements? so this may be a roundabout answer, but I wouldn't say that you go for a Specific store because of the store you go because you have needs and then you find the product that suits your requirements the best Anyone who wants to add to that? Okay Just to decide who gets in in what at least disclaimer. I'm talking about my personal experience I don't know how it goes with the other distributions like the Ibn Buntu Clinics, whatever I know about open Suze basically anyone can actually Submit anything to As a contribution it goes through a review basically with the people that actually do most of the work in that this time me and a few others But there's no pay a prejudicial the only Vetting half vetting is actually that the your software needs to play well with the rest which means Most of the time it builds it builds with the distribution. Okay, let's go the only special cases for licensing for new packages you have to make sure it's compatible and In case sometimes there are changes for example in the build flags recently We had the link time optimization added and it broke came in came in money There was an error, but it only that option actually made it show up but Basically the process is not free for all but basically anyone can go saying up Get an account and actually contribute to the to a distribution I don't know about the others, but this is how we how we work for kitty software in open Suze I'm not sure about flat up whether there are some restrictions about this after which can go there because there's also some proprietary stuff like Nvidia drivers, so I guess so Almost everything go there I haven't seen any restriction so far flat up or anything any submission which would be rejected so Yeah, just the application needs to follow some guidelines Like the there's a like upstream meta data has to be like go valid And the application needs to match the upstream meta data and so on but Not sure about any other restrictions Any more questions any question So so I'm Distributing my K-gab, which is the the the the the KDE version of the gab app The which is infamous. I'm not actually doing it But would that be a problem with anybody and is there any mechanism that you can can do to maybe intervene and say This is not aligned with our social or political Ecosystem or or would this not be a problem? It's an easy answer for the KDE store. The gab app is not compatible with the COC So if that one is very straightforward, and I don't know about anybody else. I Don't know the details, but is it part of KDE and if it is then we'll put it in neon Mastodon it's like a mastodon instance, but then for the Nazi US Nazi community, so just a very aggressive anti-gay anti-immigrant anti anything So it's it's a branded version of a hate speech. Oh, interesting ethics So what what what if the app includes or points people towards hate speech particularly as I say in the case of Katie neon it's up to It's up to the Katie community on the whole and I don't think we've ever had that sort of issue But if we would we would surely have a good long discussion about it Likewise, I have not encountered situations like that that would be Very deliberate discussion to understand exactly the impact and make the right decision. But again, this is beyond software. This is a possibly even political question, so I don't know In the past there have been porn lookup sites and stuff like that that for a while We're in Debian, but they never made it into Ubuntu and I know that Kubuntu. We decided no, we don't want that In the case of the distributions this kind of things usually our hands on distribution why the Usually there are policies that define how things are kept and Behavior and whatnot the diverse on distribution basically everything needs to To stand up to the community guidance basically if there is a problem as Basically a process like Jonathan mentioned for you if there is a problem Let's talk about it and see what actually can be done to fix it. This basically shorts because it doesn't evolve It goes be as I said it goes beyond KDE and the software In my opinion for the distribution goes the whole community behind the distribution and furthermore even more than that If I remember right the gab people closed source some of master loans Infrastructure, so I think you'll be able to keep them out on that The clients. Yeah, no, no, no, no, this was the server So I have a small feedback about you know, a spreading word and marketing the KD So what happens at least in Indian colleges is that People want something so let's suppose they want to download You know, they want to check a software which don't store and file so they know don't know if Okay, so So they don't know if a KTorrent exists and similar is the case with other applications also and at the same time like you know when never If someone asked their what to install as a good destroy everyone says okay install wouldn't do with no man It's good. It's simple and it's a beginner friendly But I've never heard anyone say, you know, like install KD neon or install plasm. It's quite good So, you know like as a feedback it would be quite good if you know, like KD applications and a destroy as a whole, you know like can be More marketed and promoted so it reads like a wider audience Yeah, I don't think anybody in particular disagrees that we need to do more and more sort of specific marketing on on particular applications and the base like the basic quality of our software in general because You know being as this is a Software community that originated in Germany amongst engineers. Everybody is really happy to Talk about the negative points of our software and these are the things that we need to fix and this is yeah, we need to you know we don't want to release something which isn't perfect and That is true, but at the same time we also have some software which is frankly awesome Now most people in here are not aware of this, but I do not use that word more than like five times a year And Yeah, we have some really amazing software and it's Yeah, we need to talk about that more that would be that would be good and all of these various distribution methods all of these various types of ways of getting our software Helps all of every single one of them right helps with that in You know in different ways as well Yeah, yeah, absolutely Also, I know that the promo team is hiring Not like money, but Yeah, no like I give Yeah, like, you know if you have like if you have specific ideas for all I by the way There is an app that's just had in a release and I didn't you know, it didn't really get any marketing or It's totally a thing the promo team has a calendar for Release announcements and just general promo work And if you come to the promo team with a an app in need of some help for the marketing They will find a spot in the calendar for you and it will you know be made to happen The best calendar absolutely We have on the So one of the issues that we had recently was with the kitty applications bundle was working out should the release announcement for that point directly to the snap store and the flat pack store and We had some very long discussions that and to me it's a no-brainer of course I should point to places where people can get our software and We had long discussions with it because it wasn't not everything was included in every store And there wasn't a single page that was necessarily up-to-date that could be pointed at So I would say to the store people get a get a publisher page Which I've said lots to everyone But it feels like a no-brainer that you should be able to go What are all the kitty applications here for the Android Store and the other ones again It's part of the problem that because kitty doesn't support applications being monetized and being put on the more commercial minded stores the windows one Mac That they're not all done under one account And so you can't easily search for what's all this stuff from kitty e and so in our announcements. We also can't We also can't have a simple link saying if you use this store Then here's a great way to get some of our software And that's another reason why our structures and processes should be improved to allow Projects to be able to use those stores in the way that suits them when they want to monetize it or otherwise And I had another point. I don't know what it is. Have a question Well, I have an idea we have a distributions list that isn't used very much because Right now it's mostly overlapped by the packages list, which is for distros and packaging issues with KDE Right But I think we should set we should widen the scope of the distributions list to make it about distributing the software to everybody and Talk more about how we can make sure that every single application is properly promoted as You know for flat pack for app image for snaps for You know the Italian catalog everywhere and Get people talking about it in that list. That's about that stuff It's not it necessary. I mean part of it what you're talking about is a community issue as in monetizing and where the money goes But to me that's pretty easy because it starts out tiny and It could just be Bringing someone to Academy that otherwise we couldn't afford to bring Academy or having one more Sprint It's not like we're Selling ourselves to the devil or something Yeah, so the distributions list was once upon a time for it was intended to be an extremely low Traffic milling lists for Issues that all distributions would want to pay attention to I Thinking that that is now covered by the security list Pretty much all of those issues are done there that are not covered by the packages list So the distributions list could be opened up to becoming Something more effectively more useful, I guess more well-defined as well So I Do question the first is would it be possible to sort of create a magnet link that includes all of your stores so that when Somebody in clicks on a link says well whatever package manager I have on my system and then just have a single unified linked and then be able to process it or is that beyond the collaboration they willing to have and the second is This is for the snap flatback and an app image once is it possible to use some sort of an upstream notification of Just like get the hot new stuff kind of this is a new there's a new version of this one Don't use this this version anymore because it's unsafe Is is is that kind of data flow Arranged among so the first question I won't touch on the second one because I don't honestly know But the first question sounds like something which would be covered by there is now a URL handler In KD called the apps called AppStream, right? So if you give it the AppStream Name of an application it will in most cases it will launch discover and show you that page and then give you whatever Version is available in your priority list I am thinking it doesn't work on mine. I've broken discover on my local install because I'm working on it You can try it might work It'll be on that screen. Anyway, you can't see it So people could share basically share the downloads, I don't know how much banter at the wrist, but That's more of a that's slightly lowering the stack I guess but yeah Yes, I can give an answer to the second question. So with snaps you get automatic updates So if the developer has published an update to their software, you will receive that update automatically So you do not need to worry about That aspect. However, the developer has not published an update to their application There is a problem, but that's a generic issue where whether developers committed to maintaining and Updating their software especially when there are security patches if that element is covered you're covered to transparently Okay with floodpeck and flood hub this situation is basically the same just what is unfortunate that Many many applications in flood hub currently are not maintained but by the actual developers So it's like mostly like in distributions where packages maintain Applications on behalf of someone else. So in ideal world, the application would be maintained by actual developers Who like knows whether there's something broken or something like that? So that's something we will need to improve in future We will need to get like the actual developer to care about the packages in Snaps and flood hub But yeah, the current situation is that it's mostly up to the package or if you know, so it's the same if you publish the an update automatically goes to the user and Yeah, if there is a problem with the update Basically, the only thing the user can do is to report an issue on the hub, but but that's it or just Update but But what was the first question again, I think I will the passing I forgot Yes, yes, basically yes, you're what what said earlier. Yes, what any sane distribution I don't think mine is saner, but maybe Should the person I don't use discover but I know people who do It should actually work I mean at least I've been trying to do this in Carolina a couple of days ago in my session and it offered me to install Packages to discover just by tapping the name. So I think it works if the your system is actually configured It should work also for even if you don't have any access to the app stores and This is the live demo for the Katie applications Website and if you click on the install button it on the applications page it takes you to an AppStream URL just to show how pioneering this is I guess within the concept of learning from the desktop stuff the specification was incomplete and mixed up URL and URI and it doesn't necessarily work and as It probably doesn't work on this computer So we need to make sure that Hold our hold our distributions and and app stores to account to make sure that These upstream URIs are integrated in such a way that they all work for all the different applications and that means automated QA to do that and That's a task that needs to be done Any more questions So I also had one question. So what are your thoughts about like Labeling some of the softwares on KDE application pays as For example different standards gold standard silver standard bronze standard. So these are the applications that are stable supported will work everywhere What's your thought on that? So like these are the applications that will always have like security updates ready for them When I put together the application web page, I did have to work out well, which what is the definitive list of our applications and it's not a simple answer and Did have to work out well, which ones are maintained but also some of them We have some applications which are listed on the applications page which don't actually have a release yet And so arguably they shouldn't be on there until this release because it's not necessary to be useful to users and Our processes are not great for doing that When we are aware that stuff doesn't get updated while the beauty of KDE is that we are a community and Once you get into it then everyone has access to everything and so we can co-maintain it and so the beauty of That that process is that Well Anyone can and does help fix stuff when it's needed and if nobody's doing that then that means it should be marked un-maintained Yeah well From our perspective if the snap is in the store it should work on all the support of distributions the 41 whether the application is actually of high quality and The functional logic of it is silver bronze or gold. That's up to the developer I mean you can put an application that does nothing it will work beautifully everywhere. Is it useful probably not personally I say that I don't agree with tiring applications because it also depends on the users Okay, I'd make a controversial statement here PIM most of people hate it. I love it So and it depends on the users also depending on maintain Application being un-maintained as Jonathan mentioned actually we have a lot of applications actually work well But they're not really actually maintained in since they get a constant developer flow think of the games They work basically almost on their own perhaps they have a few bucks here and there But basically they don't get a lot of developer attention, but still they could be classified as working So I think it's quite too subjective to do this in For the for for that tiring and personally I'm glad the distributions don't do that don't do that Yeah One example of that would be That the current version of Amarok would be marked as un-maintained It is based on Qt 4 Basically, there is no distribution left in the world that still ships it it changed on open Susa last week Yeah, well, yeah on tumbleweed it got removed and Yeah, it's it's but the problem there being there is a version of Amarok, which is in development for Qt 5 Which then Is available on some distributions and some distributions it became Installed in place of the Qt 4 versions others. It's simply removed Amarok And you know all in all a degraded user experience, but if you go with a Unmaintained gold bronze style Listing of the applications Amarok would just be listed as un-maintained when the situation is that it is Effectively maintained it still gets the occasional release. It just isn't acceptable in distributions So yeah, basically back to what Jonathan said it is not a straightforward problem Another feature that users expect to happen is user reviews and user feedback in a sort of fair and transparent way and I think most people are quite savvy at knowing what this is your user review So it'll be biased and it'll be especially the people with a particular Grievance or something I like to do it. So it's a limited way, but I think most people will be wise to that because Well, they see it everywhere from Amazon to every other website now. There is a known web service that does reviews of Applications and that's integrated into discover It's an open question whether or not it should be integrated into the applications website or not I don't know or maybe a link. I don't know certainly the applications website Those upstream URLs. They're great for Linux desktop users but we support other app stores and it's future work to be done to have this point to Google Play Store or Windows Store or all the other stores To make sure that people know everywhere that they can get it Yeah, so obviously I have a vested interest in people using the open collaboration services, but the particular service here ODRS is a Effectively a subset of the functionality of a static version of a collaboration service And it works it changed recently. We had to do a minor fix, but it works and For that sort of thing. Yeah, and it's Like Jonathan says it's when we are dealing with reasonably savvy users here They people are aware today of what user reviews mean and Yeah, I think we can Like we have two options, right? We can either ignore the ability to do user reviews or we can allow them and then hope that people understand what they're for I just want to add going back to the American that in case of snap on or floodpeck if Like a base library like you'd for or disappears from your distribution you have in case of a pack of snap or You just bundle the library inside into with the application itself so It just gives you like more work of the maintenance, but you still can ship your Application even and some older library is removed from removed from the base So you still have for the way of solve this problem So I think you're running out of time So if anybody of you have any more questions, you can talk to anyone of them later on So thank you so much complete panel. It was a useful discussion