 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump, with your hosts. Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. I'm super excited to introduce this lady to everybody. I think she is a super, God, I can't swear. It's so, it's so hard for me right now. We got kids in here right now, so gotta be careful what we say. We've got the daughters inside here, and I was gonna say she's a bad mofo, and I'm excited to bring her on board with Mind Pump. I look forward to some of the things that we're gonna do in the future. I believe going forward we discussed, I don't know if we discussed it in this upcoming episode. We did, we hope to have her on again. So I saw the first time I met Dr. Mollie, I was at this event where there were these bio-hackers and nutrition experts that were speaking, and there was a guy that was a representative from Soylent. Oh yeah. Soylent is that powder, that is a meal replacement powder, but they kind of advertise it to Silicon Valley people, like you never have to get out of your desk, you just drink this and never have to eat. Wasn't she the only other one besides you that was kind of giving this guy some flak? Well, she was on the panel with him, so he goes first, then it gets to her, and she looks at him, and she basically says, your product's garbage, like on the panel with him in front of the whole crowd, and everybody's like, oh my, it was so uncomfortable, but she kept going, and I was like, I need to get her on the show. That's our type of people, right? You're on a panel with two other people, like I'm sure they're thinking you're going to agree with him, but her integrity is way too solid for her to even do that, that she's got to speak out and talk to her. I loved it. She's, I mean, super intelligent, very charismatic. She's known as the biohacking doctor. She combines, I mean, she's an actual MD, but she does talk a lot about some of the practices from other forms of medicine, like Eastern medicine or other types, basically other beliefs. She's very holistic in her approach, but she's also very scientific, and she's also very entertaining. So one of my favorite guests, I think. I can't wait to have her back on. Yeah, no, I think eventually, and we'll see what kind of feedback that we get from our audience. Maybe down the road, we'll end up doing something where we have like a Ask Dr. Molly, and she becomes kind of a regular on the show if everybody receives her really well. We do, I think we appreciate her. She's right up the road from us. She's up in San Francisco, so it's not much to ask for her to come down here. So I hope you guys enjoy her as much as we enjoy her. She's awesome. Also, this month, you can get access to our forum, which is probably by far, I would say, Adam, I don't know if you agree with me, the most valuable thing that we offer. Yeah, because I don't think a lot of people realize how active the three of us are on there. I mean, every day, one of us is on there answering questions. And besides us, I mean, we've now filled it with all these other PhDs and nurses and trainers and doctors. I mean, there's just a lot of brilliant minds inside there. Some of our Dr. Michael Ruscio's in there, Robert Overs is in there, Ben Pollock's in there. You've got Dr. Jordan Shallows in there. So aside from just us boys in there answering questions, there's a lot of brilliant minds in there and plenty of people that I'm missing right now. It's a great community. And normally you have to pay to get in there, but we're gonna give it to you for free this month if you enroll in any of our maps, bundles, including our Super Bundle, which is the Cadillac, right? That's all of our maps programs, or at least most of them. And it's a year's worth of exercise programming. So for more information on that, just go to mindpumpmedia.com. And without any further ado, here we are talking to Dr. Molly Maloof. Now you can find her on Instagram at Dr. Molly, that's D-R-M-O-L-L-O-Y dot C-O. So at Dr. Molly dot C-O, that's Instagram. And then on Twitter, she's at Molly Maloof M-D. So here we are talking to Dr. Molly. You wanna bring the mic like this? You wanna hold it by the arm and bring it really close to your face. Like this. Oh, you hear that, the arm. You got a good radio voice. Oh, thank you, thank you. I didn't always have such a good voice. I had to get a speech coach. Did you really? Really? What was your voice like before? Do it. I would, no, I can't. Like it basically, I had hemorrhaged my vocal cords. And so, I had like, what were you doing? Just overuse. Like I was literally just talking too much and talking inappropriately, like without breathing appropriately. Oh. So. So you had that kind of like demi-more. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was basically hoarse all the time. Oh. Some people like that. When I get sick a little bit, I'm like, I think I sound better. Mm. No. I was having a trouble. I was speaking, I was doing a lot of public speaking that year. And it was like not going well. So I had to fix it. So I, when I met you, it was at, what was it that we went to just this biohacking club? Oh, it was the hustle. The hustle. That's right. So we show up, Taylor brings us and he's like, oh, I want you guys to come. There's gonna be some people talking about health. Right. And stuff. And we're like, we'll be good. We'll meet whatever. So we go to this thing and there's a crowd of people. It's mostly these like tech kids that are kind of there. So I'm like, okay, whatever. Let's see what's going on. And there were three people on, I think it was three of you, right? On the panel. There was you. There was- Jeffrey Wu from Human. From Human. And then there was some dude from- Soylent. Soylent. Yeah, one of the founders was Soylent. Soylent. Left. Right. And so he's going first, the guy from Soylent. And he's talking about- Pitching his product. He's talking about how great his product is. And it's basically processed to shit, powder, replacement, meal replacements, which has been around forever. And he's talking about how awesome it is. And it frees up your time. And it's so good for you. And I'm sitting there biting my lip. And I'm like, when it's time to ask questions, I'm gonna let him have it. So I'm getting ready, right? But before they let us ask questions, they're going down the panel. And then- They get to me. And then Molly goes up and she rips him. She's on the same panel with him. We almost started applauding. She ripped him. She's like, actually- Oh, shit. She's like, actually- Get him! She's like, that's not real food. And I don't really think that's real. I think I called it dead food. Yeah, it's dead food. And then he tried to come back and he was like, it's food. And then you're like, no, it's not. And then- Where did you find this? It was hilarious. And then I raised my hand and I kind of dug into him a little bit too. And I'm like, I want to talk to her. Like, I want her on my show because you were so blunt. And so like- I love whatever comment you said about Aubrey de Grey too. Oh, I was so mean. Oh, it was so great. It was so great. Yeah, I feel like I see these people in the media and they're like, they claim to be experts in what they're doing. And like, at the end of the day, you look at the way that they live their lives and you're like, are you actually living in a way that promotes what you want to achieve? And like, Aubrey de Grey, I think maybe I shouldn't have made this comment but I made a comment about how I heard his wife was a smoker and I'm like, if you really want to live a long time, you wouldn't be living with a smoker. Yeah. But you also said he looks like he's 150. He does look 150. Exactly. He does. He's the CEO of Swayler, right? How old is he? No, no, no, no, no. I know, Aubrey de Grey is about like the Sense Foundation. How old is he? He's like a longevity expert, right? How old is his man? Oh, he's 50 something? Oh no way. I don't know, he's like 20, 30 years older than he looks. He literally looks 30 years old. Yeah, he looks like the wizard from Whatchamacala. That's what he looks like. Well, we gotta look him up. We gotta look him up. Okay, but you know what's really funny, guys? I went to the A4M conference two years ago when I spoke there, and I was really surprised at like how old people looked. And I think that there is something to be said about like why people pursue different goals in their lives. And maybe it's because they're predisposed to premature aging. And that's why they're going for it. And that's why they're going for it. There he is. He's 54 years old, told you. That's ridiculous. He looks like he's 74. He does look like he's... Doesn't he look 74? He does. You know what it is? He's like a mix between ZZ Top and a wizard. So how did he get famous? I mean, where did he... He's just a researcher about like the fundamental molecular mechanisms of aging and believes that we can reverse it and that it's a disease that you can treat. And I'm just not a believer that like aging is a disease. I think aging is a part of life. And the way that we're designed as biological beings in the world, we're not unfortunately... We're not like the jellyfish that get to age and reverse. Like we're humans. And so we're probably gonna get old and age. And if there's a lot of people in Silicon Valley who just believe that it should be stopped. And it really started with Peter Thiel. Like he... I think he really promoted... And I think he actually funded part of... I could be wrong on this, but he might have funded Aubrey at one point. But there's like sort of like a whole cadre of people who just really wanna live forever. And... Is it because they're afraid of dying, I think, more than anything, right? I don't know if it's afraid of dying in as much as I think a lot of people are afraid of being forgotten. And I think a lot of what you see with the whole aging community, anti-aging community of Silicon Valley is, they all want this modern day version of mummification. So they either wanna be uploaded into a computer, which would be like preserving them till antiquity or they want to be preserved in terms of... Like I have friends who are literally of tattoos on their body that are instructions of what to do to their body if they die. And it's about cryopreservation. So they're literally like... They have an insurance policy that will basically pay for cryopreservation for later in life if they die. That sounds like such an ego thing, right? I think it's mummification. And I think that if we were to do that with a bunch of people in like 100 years, it'd be super interesting to study those bodies, but we're not bringing them back. I have to ask, how accurate, have you ever seen that show Silicon Valley? Oh my God, it's so accurate. Blood boys and all that kind of stuff. Okay, okay, okay. So that story I think was... Okay, so I'm friends with some of the doctors that some of these well-known billionaires in Silicon Valley work, they work together. And it's very clear in a lot of public media disclosures that Peter Thiel has invested in life-expanding technologies. And he's got a fund, Thiel Capital does invest in biotechnology that is aiming to extend life. And they were looking at that company. Like the problem is that story got totally turned into Peter Thiel gets the blood of young boys in his body. That's some weird vampire thing. Which like, I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't know if it's false, but I think that that story got kind of overblown a bit. And yeah, I don't know if he's actually doing that. But for the most part, a lot of what's in that show is really true. Oh my God, it's really scary. Like it's literally scary. Like how accurate it is. Like the weird offices that people have in some of the earlier stage companies, like the hacker houses, like those are all over San Francisco. Like tons of companies work out of houses and people kind of like, or like dysfunctional humans kind of growing up, becoming like these Peter Pan boys. Oh wow, so let's back up for a second. And if you could tell our audience your background a little bit before we get into this. Yeah, we gotta just like jump into Zilligan Valley. That's how we do it. Okay, so my name is Dr. Molly Maloof. And I started my career in San Francisco working as a physician who really my aim was to optimize health with my practice. But prior to that I was working for a company called Metamed that provided personalized medical research to super wealthy individuals who wanted a research team to figure out what was wrong with their health. So I've got a background in research and background of optimizing health. And I've been sort of a big part of this data-driven movement around understanding what health is. And concurrently as I was building this medical practice, I was working with tech startups because building medical practice costs a lot of money. And I didn't wanna take any loans out because I already had loans. So I did consulting gigs with a bunch of tech companies. And I started advising technology companies. And you're advising them on health practices and stuff? Mostly around clinical strategy, product development, clinical research, scientific marketing. Those are like the four buckets that I would do the most work in. And over the last few years I've worked with a lot of really amazing people both as patients but also as companies. And now my sort of next chapter of my career is figuring out how to scale me. So that's the next plan. So you do at the moment you still practice or you do concierge? It's a concierge model. I wish it were something that were scalable right now but I do really large data collection modalities on people. So I'm gathering clinical exomes. I'm gathering metabolomics, clinical chemistry markers, microbiome tests, hormone testing and these are all just like hundreds of biomarkers at a time. What's your typical client? My typical client is an executive or an investor in San Francisco who either has a health problem that no one has been able to solve or they have a desire to sort of optimize their health but they don't wanna do it all themselves and they want someone to sort of be there with them. What are you seeing? Is there anything in common with a lot of these guys and girls? I guess surprisingly there's a lot of people who are really into biohacking. I mean, not surprisingly. And a lot of the people that come to me with spreadsheets that they're already doing on their health, these are really, people who are very interested in understanding their body and understanding what's going on inside them and they want someone who's got domain expertise to help them make sense of their data. It seems like Western medicine sometimes feels like it moves so slow but then I have someone like you and you're like on the cutting edge and you're saying things and talking about things that a lot of practicing doctors don't even learn about. It's interesting because we know a lot of these biohacking tools and different devices that are out there but like to have somebody to actually interpret all that data and then put it into like a health plan that's something I haven't really heard anybody doing yet. So are you pretty much like- That's like a lot of what I do. And I type, I mean one of the problems is like I'm typing like 20 page reports for people and there comes a point where you're like is this really what I want to be doing with my day? Do I really, one of my goals is just to not be in front of a computer as much this year. So I've taken less patience on and I've been doing a bit more consulting and traveling to LA and doing more media work and talking to product companies. What do you see as the cutting edge right now? Cause I see a lot of research on microbiome, a lot of research on fasting. Like what looks promising right now? So one of the things that I have on today and that I'm carrying with me is this continuous glucose monitor. And I mean there was actually a study in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about the microbiome and the biochemical individuality we have towards food. Like our individual reactions are different and so one of the best tools to understand that feedback loop is a CGM. And the reason why is because you literally can see direct feedback in the moment of what you're doing with your body on a day to day basis. So I went, if I eat, if I eat sugar, it shows and cause I'm not eating sugar, right? And now I'm keto for like the last two days and you can literally see a flat line. And then like last week I was super stressed out and you see a more variable curve. And so this is like, this is to me like really, really, really, really important to the future of medicine because anything that can be in the moment and give you feedback can help you change behavior faster. There's not that lag time. No, that's totally agree. That's gotta be prescribed to you though right now, right? So right now you have to, I have to buy these and then give them to patients but you can actually get a prescription from your doctor to pick these up at Walgreens now. But the demand is so high that Abbott literally emailed me and said, we'd like to give you a discount on the devices you just ordered because they're gonna expire soon because we've got such demand that like we need to get rid of these. And I was like, sure, I'm gonna use them in the next month anyway. So yeah, it's crazy. And what you said makes perfect sense because if I have the monitor on and I can see that what I ate at this moment caused this change and then I can connect that to how I feel, I'm much more likely. When you put those on for the first time, did it just strengthen what you had already observed within yourself? In other words, like you notice like, oh, I kind of feel crappy when I eat these tips of things. Then you put that on and you're like, oh, there it is. So I think one of the most interesting things I discovered was that like there's so many people promoting plant-based diets and I'm really plant-based at the most part. I'm an omnivore, I eat meat, but I eat a lot of vegetables like a ton. But I don't do well with grains. And this showed me, like this will show you that if I eat a lot of grains, like I see abnormal blood sugars. And so I'm all about us figuring out what is the right diet that works for us? And for me, it just happens to be not a high-grain diet. Is it all grains, like rice, buckwheat, wheat? Like maybe I'll do occasionally a little bit of rice, but like last time I did that, I could see my blood sugar wasn't great. And how does that feel when that happens? I don't feel, it's kind of like the typical storyline that you get around like the spike in the crash. It's just that insulin spike and that blood sugar drop that you notice, it's sort of the delta that makes the biggest feeling change that I've noticed. And then the fact that you just get so hungry afterwards, right? Promotes overeating, I think. It does. And so, I don't know, I'm not anti-grain. I think that there's a lot of people who thrive on it, and I'm just not one of those people. And I have celiac, so I think that there's a risk for auto-immunity and for issues around grains. And I think the auto-immune paleo diets really taking off because there's so many auto-immune people in our country. Oh, for sure. And it's because our guts are so dysfunctional, right? And our guts are dysfunctional because of the way that we have preservatives in our foods. We don't eat enough probiotic foods. We have taken way too many antibiotics in our lifetime. We know our water quality isn't awesome. We over-consume. We over-consume, which is definitely gonna release lipopolysaccharide into your bloodstream. We are way too stressed out, which can cause leaky gut alone. And then, like, plenty of people, like, we're raised on formula and weren't breastfed and we're had C-sections. So, like, perfect storm of gut dysfunction. It's not surprising we have auto-immunity as an epidemic in this country. Had you said what you just said right now, which, by the way, coming from a doctor is so awesome because when I would talk like this, seven years ago, I had a lot of clients that were doctors. I used to have a wellness facility next to a hospital. And I would talk like this and I'd get eye rolls and laughs and chuckles. And, I mean, to hear a doctor talking like this, like, this is what wellness, you know, crunchy wellness experts were saying five to 10 years ago. Now, you're saying this, are your peers like, are you getting any pushback from your peers or is this becoming a new? I got pushback seven years ago when I was in my residency. I got pushback in medical school, like, 10 years ago. I mean, like, I was trying to teach my teachers that calories in, calories out wasn't accurate anymore and that there's, like, we have an individual metabolism that will change based on what we eat. And they were like, no, no, no, no, that doesn't make any sense. And they were just teaching us old science and at the same time, we were learning about the microbiome and we were learning about these things, but they weren't really being put into practice. And frankly, I got so fed up in my residency that I said, okay, I'm gonna resign and I'm gonna get my license and I'm gonna get my DEA license and I'm gonna be a doctor, but I'm gonna do it my way. And so I took a giant risk. Like, I left my residency halfway through. And a lot of people told me that I was making the biggest mistake of my life. My parents were beyond pissed off at me. My peers were like, well, you know, it's good you figure this out now instead of later. And then other peers were like, you need a backup plan. What are you thinking? And at the same time, I was just like, I'm gonna go find a job and I'm gonna find a job that, like, works for me and I found a job that doubled my income, have my work hours, enabled me to stay afloat while I got my license because it took me a little while to get it because you have to, like, explain to the California Mechelboard why you left. You left your residency. Yeah. And so that was a little bit of, you know, I was kind of a little bit of trouble, but then I got out of it, got my license. And the next thing I know, like, I, you know, my mentors were these doctors to Silicon Valley Elite. And I said, okay, if you can optimize health for a living, I wanna do what you do and you're gonna teach me. And they were like, read this textbook. And so my friend, Jason bought me this textbook called the Textbook of Functional Medicine. And so that's where I really got my basic understanding of how to optimize health was using functional medicine. That's excellent. Now, back to the Continua Glucose Monitor, you were talking about how individual people can be. And I read in Wired to Eat, Rob Wolf wrote that book. I need to read that. About how, like, you'd have someone who would have a stronger insulin response with, you know, an avocado than they would with a grain, for example, which you would totally not expect. And he's saying how, when we interviewed him, I asked him about this and he says, you know, he thinks that there may be an immune reaction that's happening, because an immune reaction will cause a spike in cortisol which is then released. So is that, you think that's what's going on? I think that, like, this is something that needs so much research. Cause I had a friend who was an immunologist and he did some n equals one studies on himself before and after eliminating sugar and what it did to his immune system. And he literally saw his immune system age reverse. Like, he saw this stuff happening to himself and, you know, it needs some funding behind it. But I think that there's a lot to be said about what's harming our immune system with the food we eat now. And then also, if we're eating foods that our body doesn't want and it's causing leaky gut, then you would see it in immune response, right? Like, you would see your body reacting to things. And that, and like, so the problem is, is that all these, like, food reactivity tests, like, I did like four of them at the same time on myself once. And they just haven't been super accurate. Now, what are they testing for? IgG antibodies, I think? There's IgG, there's IgA, there's IgM, there's IgE. And then there's like, you know, so it really depends on the company. And then, like, I have this test sitting in my bathroom waiting to be done on, like, cytokine testing, right? And so, you know, these are single point in time and we have so much to learn. But like, fundamentally, the best test you can do for foods and studies is an elimination diet. Still, right? Still the gold standard. And what surprises me is that there isn't a company that makes this easy. Like, someone should be doing a meal delivery service that's an elimination diet. Oh, geez, that's brilliant. It just needs to exist. Like, somebody listen to this and make this. I will advise, give me some equity, we'll be good. I feel like GreenChef is structured for that, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, they're for structures there, for sure. Right, yeah. Like, if they have, are you familiar with GreenChef? Uh-huh. Yeah, they'll have like Paleo and Keto and vegan and gluten-free. I should talk to them. That would be brilliant. We actually just started, we're gonna start working with them pretty soon. Really? Yeah. Plug. One of the things that I think needs to happen is first of all, it needs to be a prescription. And like, it should be covered by insurance. If it's a gold standard diagnostic test, why is it not covered by insurance? And then the reintroduction should be like an app that you get a reintroduction every day to get a reminder, eat this today, see how you feel. Like, you have to do the tracking. But if you do this, you can really learn about yourself. And like, I have been tracking a few things lately, like grains and dairy. And just like, one of the things that I get is I get like rapid weight gain, like tons of water weight over the, like I'll gain like three pounds in a day. And that's obviously not fat, right? That's inflammation. Yeah. That's inflammation. Water. You know what sucks though is I feel like people, they, a lot of the people you deal with are like these elite level people that are looking to biohack. And a lot of times the people that we deal with, they're already broken and they need help. But there's so many people that are heading down this path. And it's hard to convince those people to start to put this type of work in. I know, I know. I mean, that's the sad thing is people are fundamentally wired to be kind of lazy. Right. And that's just like our evolutionary imperative is like preserve energy. But like, if you really want to be healthy, you should be using your energy, right? Like you should actually be trying harder. I dated a guy who was like super into fitness and he really shifted my mindset around health because he was like, I literally go out of my way to make my life harder on purpose. Like he'll like run to work using a weighted vest. And I'm like, who are you? And he's like, his body was insane. Like he was super ripped. He looked incredible. And it was because he valued the hard work that he put in on a day-to-day basis. So like it is actually work. I make my patients work really hard. In fact, optimizing health is not actually this easy thing to do. It takes effort. And consistency, right? And it's a continuous process that changes throughout your life cycle depending on where you're at. And so it's not this thing that you arrive at. It's this thing that you're consistently doing. I just think we need to change the conversation a little bit because, yes, it's hard and it's tough, but that's what gives things meaning. Like otherwise- Yeah, it's challenging. And you have to be challenged to have meaning. Otherwise you're depressed and bored and you have no, like what is, what are the things all about? I totally agree with you. I mean, think about it this way. You think, look at all the things that you've accomplished yourself. Would it mean anything had they just been given to you? No. It wouldn't mean anything at all. So I think we change the conversation a little bit when people can start to appreciate the process rather than be so focused on the goal. Like if I'm trying to lose 30 pounds and all I think about is a 30 pounds, that may motivate me enough to lose a 30 pounds, but then what happens when I lose it? Like I gain it back or now what? There's a psychological term for that. And I can't remember what it is. Marathon runners get a lot. Well, they'll train really hard for a marathon and then they'll finish the marathon and then they go through the short period of depression afterwards and they don't know what to do because they don't have that goal. It's really all about that process. Yep. Well, you're a very ambitious driven woman. Where does that come from? I was kind of born this way. Like I remember that like, I distinctly remember kindergarten, realizing there was like three different reading groups and there was like the Robins, the Blue Jays and like the Cardinals. And like the Blue Jays were the best. And I was like, holy shit, there's a best group. I have to be the best. Like I just had to be in the best reading group. I mean, like it was super weird. I don't know where it came from. Did you get it from probably one of your parents? I would assume that. You know, my parents are pretty perfectionists. Like they definitely are perfectionists. Like my parents worked really hard to go from like a one, like one room home, the first home to like mansions, right? Like they worked their asses off. And so I saw them growing up. Like I saw our lives changing as we, as they worked harder and produced even more children at the same time. And so I think that rubbed off on me a little bit. And like there are some pros and cons to being perfectionist. I think I'm really still trying to deal with that part of myself. Like I don't think it's necessarily the most healthy thing to be, but like fortunately I've like developed a like a self love and self compassion practice that's like keeping me more grounded. But yeah, I think my parents, but also just like, I don't know, I think- Are you the oldest? Do you have siblings? I'm the second oldest. Second oldest? Yeah, I mean, yeah. In fifth grade, I found my calling, which is really interesting. I actually found like two callings in fifth grade, which is really crazy. Like I built my own first little business in school. Oh wow. And like was making American girl doll clothes and like bedding and selling it to my peers. And like making me these painted paper boxes and my school found out that I was making money. And they were like, you can't do this. And I was just like, oh crap. So now I associated entrepreneurship with like a bad thing. So then I like realized that like, but I had this like deep desire to know what I was supposed to do in this world. And then I just like thought about, frankly this is so cheesy, but I was like, why was I given so much and why are there people starving in Africa? And I was like, this is such a weird thing that I grew up in this family that's so loving. And so it just occurred to me that like medicine would be a way to help a lot of people. And so I decided to become a doctor and like really young age. And like, yeah. So where has the being a perfectionist served you and where has it not served you so much? I think it's served me from the perspective of like, I've just always been the kind of girl who's always had a packed schedule of activities. And I've always been in clubs. I've always run for student government. I've always had to be, you know, I had to have really good grades. I had to be in AP classes. Like it's driven me to do, to challenge myself and see how much I can actually do. But where it doesn't serve is like the unfortunate pervasive culture of beauty in America where you just feel bad about yourself because you're not exactly perfect. And fortunately like, I'm a pretty curvy woman, but I'm not like, I'm not like, you know, I'm not born real thin by any means. But like, there is this like, fortunately there's like a culture of real women's bodies becoming beautiful and not just like the super skinny sad looking model. So I actually feel a lot better about myself. The more society picks up on like different body styles. But yeah, I think that like, I think women's beauty culture is just like pretty toxic. And both like both like physically and then like emotionally. Did you, did you ever go through a phase where relationships and dating was challenging for you being as driven and as intelligent as you are? Did you ever struggle with that? Oh God, the fragile male ego must have a tough time. Yeah, you run over boys or what? Okay, like I feel really bad about talking about this. Nah, we gotta keep it real, this is fucking my problem. Well, yeah, I mean like, I have a tendency to date younger men. And so, you know, like my last, like four boyfriends were in their 20s and I'm in my 30s. Oh, so you just ran game. You just want to teach them. You just, you were telling them what time it was all the time. Yeah, I'm just kind of like. Pool boy syndromes. Fuck, you and my girl get along just fine. I'm the first guy her age that she's ever dated. All the rest of them are like four years younger. Yeah. And I was like, I know why that was. You can fucking manipulate the show. No, no, it's because they have so much energy and they can meet me, you know? Because I have a ton of energy. But no, I think like, actually my biggest problem was in my 20s I was in med school and I was like really so busy studying that I feel like my dating world, my dating like mentality, my dating life got really stunted because like you don't really get to date very much when you're in med school. Like you're kind of delaying your growing up period. And then you're in residency and you just have no time for anything. So there was about six, seven years of my life, like at least six years of my life that like I was legitimately like, I had no idea what I was doing with dating. So when I started dating, I felt like I was really confused. I was like, I don't even know what I'm doing. Like I don't even know like what's going on. Like I don't know what normal people do about this whole dating thing. So I just, I've had a lot of trial and error over the last few years. You know, I didn't know this existed until I started hanging out with doctor buddies that were like in their 30s that a lot of them are like wowing out right now because they put, they sacrificed so much during school. Now they're in a place where, hey, I make good fucking money. I could do whatever I want. And some of them are, I feel like going through some of the shit that I went through like my mid early 20s and shit because they were busy doing school so much. So I have to say that like, I've made a lot of mistakes with men's hearts and I like do have a deep appreciation for the fragile male ego. It's not that fragile actually. I'm gonna make you share more. I wanna know more fucking details on what are some of the things that you've learned? What are your tendencies that you've done to these young boys that are trying to win your attention? I'm the worst. We're on a podcast. I'm literally the worst. People don't know this but you're probably the hottest doctor that I've ever personally met. So I think our audience needs to know that that's part of why I'm asking questions like this. I'm sure that you broke a lot of fucking hearts. You thought Chris Crescer was attractive though. Yeah, he is. Try to keep it real. If it's a male guy, it's hot too. She's probably the best looking female doctor that we've had in here. Oh my God. Well, okay, like I think that like there's been a lot of, over the last few years, there's been a lot of confusion of lust and love for me. So like you meet this person, like I'll literally not be dating for a little while and then I'll be like, all right, I need a boyfriend. So I'm gonna go out and meet someone. And literally like the key is birthday parties is where you meet guys in San Francisco. Because like, especially go to a party where you know like only two people there, great way to meet people, especially if the person throwing the party is someone you really like. Like I'm all about the real life in person meeting. Like I don't really like dating apps. Like I just don't feel like they serve me because there's so much of dating is actually about the physical reaction. But the problem is is that if you base it off of that physical reaction, then you're literally just falling in lust with people. And then like three or four months go by and then you're like, oh shit, do I really like you? I don't like talking to them. You know, like no, or maybe like I really like you as a person. I find you really interesting, but do I really wanna spend the rest of my life with you? And just like, you know, doing that sort of circle, you know, maybe like you get into a relationship in the last like six to nine months. And you're like, what was I doing? Did this again? And then you do it again. And you're like, what did I just do? And how did that happen? So now I've been doing this thing where like I get to know guys before any physical contact. And it drives people crazy, especially because like guys hate when you make them wait, but like, but really getting to know people, it's just the key to like, obviously like figuring out what's right. And so lately, like the last three months, I got out of a relationship. I wanted to start dating, but I didn't wanna jump into a new one. So I basically told all the guys that I was dating, I was like, look, I'm gonna take this like super slow. And like, like snails pay slow. And I'm just like, just so you know, like it's gonna be a while before I'm gonna be ready for anything. But I'm happy to hang out with you and get to know you. Right, right. And I learned so much during that period of time because there was this one guy and he was older, but like I could just tell that like he, I was just like, you really just wanna sleep with me. Like this is pretty much all you want. And it was funny hanging out with him because like he would kind of act like he was interested in me, but then I realized over the course of a few dates that like he had no interest in me at all. Oh wow. And I was like, wow, like I've had interesting conversations with you about current events and interesting things in the world, but you've not asked me anything about myself. So fuck you. Sorry. Kick rock. Are you starting to piece together what that, the attributes that you want in a man? Oh, I have a whole list. Yeah, let's hear them. Yeah. It's like, oh my God. What's the non-negotiables? I mean, I guess the non-negotiables. She has them written down. So one of the things that I realized is like, I really admire and I really like dating entrepreneurs and people who are entrepreneurial. But being in the early stages of an entrepreneurship career are really hard because there's so much up and down. And so I think I will probably end up with somebody older than me who's a little bit more established, who's got a little bit more wiggle room and I don't feel like I'm on a crazy boat to somewhere. You know, like that was with my last relationship. Like he's so much potential. He's going to be so successful. But the ride with him was so up and down that like I just don't know if it was right for me. And then like, you know, there's a certain amount of like emotional maturity that you get from just being older. And so like, even though guys in their 20s are so energetic and they can keep up with me, it's hard to like imagine myself ending up with somebody who like hasn't done all that personal growth work that I think is really required to be in a mature relationship. I feel like too, like maturity seems to be stunted nowadays. Like people are taking longer and longer to become adults. Yeah, but it's really, what's really interesting is like the last four, three guys that I dated that were in their 20s, all of them wanted to have kids and settle down. So like I'm very lucky that I find really great quality men who want the same things that I want. But like I do know that that, like there is a problem of the Peter Pan syndrome in Silicon Valley. And I think that's partially because men are so busy working that they are not working in themselves. And like you have to put the work into yourself just as much as you have to put the work into your relationship. And I think that there's a correlation between putting work into yourself and then investing in your relationship once you have one. Like there's a relationship you have with you and there's a relationship you have with others and both require effort to like become like a flourishing human being. How important is this for total, for health? I think it's huge. I think like especially getting back to that relationship with yourself like you have to truly love yourself to be able to really truly love someone else. And that is like a big problem in our country is people just hating themselves and treating other people poorly because they're so mean to themselves. And I used to do this when I was younger. I was just so, I would literally like just beat myself up for not being perfect. And then that came out in my relationships. Like I wasn't nice to others. I wasn't nice to my family. And like luckily I fixed that within like high school but it still took me a while to like really grow into like this version of myself that like truly tries to be just like compassionate and good to people. Sometimes I'm kind of, I'm still kind of a bitch but like that's because sometimes people deserve it. You have to be sometimes, I think so. It's funny for the longest time I didn't understand what that meant when people say you have to love yourself before you can love someone else. But you're not, if you don't love yourself you're not worthy. You don't feel like you're worthy of someone else's love. And you end up sabotaging things without even realizing it because I'm not worthy of this other person. How do you die? Do you talk about this side of health with your patients as well? Or is there, oh wow. I do. I mean like emotional health and relationship health can be, I literally had a patient who had prediabetes and we discovered it was not her nutrition. It was her relationship that was causing her emotional distress. She was being emotionally abused. Not physically, but emotionally. And that led to her having actual prediabetes and we found this out cause she was wearing a glucose monitor and when she would leave town, I basically told her to do an experiment. I was like, see what happens this summer when you take some time away from him. Oh my gosh, this is brilliant. And she discovered when she would see her family in Portland that her blood sugar would normalize. Wow. And then she would go back home and she ended up having to leave the man. And that's a giant life change. And I did not tell her to do this. She came to the decision on her own. And I just helped her understand what was going on with her body cause she'd been to a very popular clinic in San Francisco. And they said, look, you got prediabetes and she's like, great, what do I do about it? And they were like, I don't know. They were like, they didn't really give her any answers. And so she came to me because she's like, I need to figure this out cause I don't want to get diabetes cause that's really scary. And so we actually reversed her prediabetes. That's crazy. That's insane. How many people you think are dealing with that right now and just have no fucks? Oh my God. So many people in this country are eating their feelings and they have all these food problems because they're so emotionally upset every day. Like this is a huge issue in our country. Well, it's just insane because for the longest time we have done the separating game, right? Oh yeah. You got the human organism but it's not one big thing. We look at, oh, here's your emotions. Here's your mental space. Here's your digestion. Here's your hormones. Sure. We don't talk to each other at all. Yeah. Cause the old way of treating prediabetes would have been like, okay, let's look at your diet. Oh, that's not helping. Let's put you on this medication to help lower blood sugar without even like dealing with the root cause. And the only way you would have known that is with that monitor. Kelly Brogan is someone who if you could get her on your show I would have her because she's this psychiatrist in New York. I actually haven't met her but I read all of her stuff and I follow her. And she's like all about just like this full like 360 degree approach to mental health. And like I've looked at her books and I've seen what she writes about and the same stuff that she writes about those same things that I'm recommending. Like pretty much anybody who's working in functional medicine or chronic disease prevention or trying to like optimize health is looking at a person's lifestyle from every direction. They're looking at their relationships. They're looking at their daily habits. The way that they eat, the way that they drink, the way that they breathe, the way that they work, the way that they sleep. All these things really do contribute to overall health. And like when someone has mental health problems yes there might be a genetic component to it but a lot of it is also lifestyle. Like a lot of it is people not living in a way that actually optimizes the brain's function. And I think a lot of it is gut health problems too. Like I know people who have clear gut dysfunction and they're like trying to study depression and figure out depression from like the molecular mechanisms and I'm just like dude your gut's disordered. Like if you don't heal your gut you're not gonna heal your brain cause your gut has brains too. You know like you have ganglia in your brain. You have nerves and nerve bundles in your gut that are talking to your brain. And that's happening 24 seven. And so like it just, it's just surprising. It's the second brain, right? It's the second brain. It's got the highest, second highest concentration of what serotonin receptors. Absolutely. And I think the heart is supposed to be the third if I'm not mistaken. Exactly, yeah. How funny is that ancient, what do you think about that now? Cause you know what you sound like right now obviously you're Western medicine trained and you understand the scientific method and you follow the process of getting evidence or whatever. But you know what else you sound like? Eastern medicine. Oh yeah. You sound very much like that old wisdom that is Ayurvedic or Eastern medicine or that we've learned. Like have you studied those at all? I have, yeah. I mean I read a lot but I also I'm just my, one of my big goals is to understand like what is really like this like unified theory of health. Like what is like, what does health really mean and what is it made of and why do we have it and why do we need it? And frankly like we need health to meet our purpose in life. If you don't have a purpose in life like what's the point of being healthy, right? Like a lot of people are living just to function, just to stay alive, just to, and they're not thriving and they're not flourishing and they don't have vitality and they don't have any reason to have health. So like why would they want to be healthy besides? And then you get into the whole like evolutionary biology, right? So people want health because they want to attract a mate so that they can reproduce. And that's a reason to actually have health. But the problem with that is that we've got this totally deranged industry of beauty and frankly some of fitness is problematic too. Oh my God, some, some. Sorry, I just try not to like offend people too much. Fucking all of it, he's always talk about this. But like, yeah, so people trying to achieve this certain outcome and then forgetting that like all these products that we're putting on our bodies are potentially inhibiting our fertility, right? Like all these parabens and phthalates and trichlazan like all these endocrine disruptors that are in these beauty products that are in these health products, like. Xenoestrogens. They're not helping you achieve the thing that you're trying to do, which is to attract a mate. They're making you maybe more attractive according to society standards, but they're not actually making you more fertile. So like I'm looking underneath the surface of all these things, right? And trying to figure out like why are we here? What are we doing? And what's the reason why we would need health? Yeah, all the things that we do through the fitness industry really is taking physical signs of, you know, you're attracting this based on your mateability, how healthy you are, how healthy your genes are. And then we distort the shit out of them. So like, okay, a muscular man with a tight waist is probably healthier than someone who's not like that. But let's distort the fuck out of it, put them on steroids and make them look crazy. You know, being curvy on a woman or having certain skin tone or your hair or whatever. Let's distort the hell out of it with all these products and now create the illusion of health through these physical signs. When in reality, all you have to do is be healthy and then you get all of those things. One of the statistics that alarmed me the most when I read it, and that was a second statistic that I learned the other day was men's testosterone levels have been dropping now for I think the past four decades. Oh I know. And then their sperm counts are dropping as well. Do you think that has to do with all the Xenoestrogens and stuff? I do think that it's a symptom of like, well, I mean, let's like think about, this is just a hypothesis, but like birth control emerged around then too, right? And so women are peeing birth control into the water supply. Like that's probably impacting things. There's also the fact that like our health has dramatically changed. Like most people are getting fatter. I'm on birth control, so. And so you get aromatization of testosterone to estrogen. So that's a problem. I learned so much about hormones when I worked for this company called GeneSolve years ago that created an expert system for optimizing health and hormones using personalized nutraceuticals and hormones. And so like we basically create custom compounded medicine for people. And we'd use it based up, we'd basically make it off of their laboratory tests and their genetics. And it was a really cool company. And it worked really well. But the whole time I was asking myself like, whenever there was a young person who would come in, I would always freak out a little bit because I'm like, aren't we gonna disrupt their fertility? Like this won't matter to you if you've already done having kids. But like I know people who've had like, they're basically infertile because they've been on testosterone for like 10 years in their 20s. And the reason why this one patient, the reason why he was on testosterone was because he wanted to meet his, he had pretty much hypogoninism. So he was basically like below 300 testosterone on his labs. And he wanted to reach his goals in the fitness world and he wasn't doing that naturally. So he decided he would go on to testosterone. And he felt a lot better, but then his axis was thrown off. So like, I'm not anti hormones used appropriately. And as we age, we will just see a natural tapering off of a lot of hormones like thyroid, progesterone, testosterone. These are like for women, obviously estrogen. And I will probably take hormones, actually currently take progesterone right now for fibrocystic breasts. But I'm not opposed to hormone use, but I think that like, we do need to look at this like big picture of like the stress in our lives and what that does to our hormone access. Like- Oh, that makes, I tell the guys, so I'm going through the person you just gave an example of. So I had competed at the professional level in bodybuilding. So for about four years there, pretty consistently I was taking synthetic testosterone. And what I started doing about two years ago was every year I would try and come off and then naturally re-boost my testosterone this year I've decided that like I'm going to try, I mean, Katrina and I are talking about potentially having a kid. And when I first initially got on it, I was, I was tested at like 250. My levels were really low and that was partially from my early 20s, fucking around with it, not knowing what I was doing as a kid. And then I really felt it catch up to me. But one of the things that I have noticed more than anything else, and I remember taking 500 milligrams of testosterone a week and not having a sex drive because of stress that was going in my life. So I noticed that more than even the taking a high dosage or not at all of synthetic testosterone. So the way I talk to people now is addressing stress and sleep and all these factors even before anything else. Is there anything that you would recommend for me right now? And that's kind of where I'm at. I'm, you know, sleep stress. Those are my priorities. Weight resistance training, red light therapy. I'm taking some herbal supplements. Yeah, I mean like there was, there's like a bunch of other medicines that people take to like reboot, reboot fertility. Like men actually will use HCG. So I have that. To boost the, to like really get the FSH axis going again. And then I'm trying to think of the other medications right now. I've heard a bodybuilder's taking Tamoxifen or Clomid. Clomid, yeah. I've heard about that as well. I mean, we used to prescribe those at GeneSolve, especially for men who like didn't want to be on testosterone, but they wanted the boost. So yeah, I mean, and then the monitoring really, like getting the regular lab test to see if you're actually making it, if these things are making a difference. You know, I think what's really interesting about this topic is like, if you look at fertility in men, it's not just men, but it's women too. Women are experiencing infertility. And like, we've been doing this giant experiment with women on birth control for the last like 40 years. Oh my God, we need to talk about this because well, I'll tell you what, I, you know, I do some, some coaching of clients. And so many of them will be like, oh, you know, I went off birth control like two years ago, but nothing's been normal. I'm still all over the place. My, my girlfriend, you know, she was on birth control. It took her so long to get normal afterwards. And you think about it like you're on a hormone or one that's mimicking a hormone, whatever, for someone to go on birth control for, you know, 15, 20 years consistently. Yep. What does that do to the body then when you try and come off? Isn't there, there's a negative feedback loop with those hormones as well. Exactly. I mean, like I think that there's, at least I've been, I was just having a conversation over brunch with some women who were like, you know, it's funny. Like I spent my entire 20s trying not to get pregnant. Now I'm in my 30s and trying to get pregnant and it's so hard because I'm just going off birth control. And I'm like, well, these are all the things you can do. You can like, you can use the Ava wristband to track your HRV and I think they do temperature too. I'll have to double check that, but that can help you measure your, your ovulation. You can, I'm doing like a, like a month long menstrual cycle rhythm urine testing. So it's like 21 samples over a month to see what my cycle looks like. I'm measuring LH in my urine through LH test strips. I can actually see if I'm ovulating that way. And then, you know, like I track my cycle through different apps to see if I'm regular or not. So there's so many, like there, first of all, you have to understand what normal is for you and then find out if you're ovulating, find out if there's anything wrong with your luteal cycle. For me, I've been on like the low end of progesterone for a while now and I was kind of hesitant to like, to like start using it as a, as a medicine. But then I spoke to a doctor and I was, I got a breast exam and he's like, yeah, you've got fibrocystic breasts. And I'm like, oh, that must explain why they're so painful before I period. So I did a bunch of research, started on iodine, started on progesterone cream, problem gone. Really? Yeah. And the thing is like, here's the deal. I know my lifestyle is stressful. Part of why people pay me is because they are like, look, I know my lifestyle is stressful. I'm not gonna stop doing all the things that I'm doing. So how can I optimize my health despite my demands? And so like the way I see it is- I love the way you put that, by the way. Like the reality is, is that like, I'm not gonna just like, I have by the way in the past like lighten my workload. But unfortunately, when I do that, I like don't feel as fulfilled. Right, Rob and Peter to pay Paul. What? Rob and Peter to pay Paul. Rob, you're identifying what gives you, I guess, meaning in life or what makes you feel fulfilled. Yeah, I mean, I also just like function better when I have a little bit more stress. Like I need a good baseline amount of stress to like be productive. And once it just gets too much, it becomes problematic. And part of this is like the catecholomethyl transferase enzyme. You guys heard of Compt, the warrior-warrior gene? No. Yeah, so like- Oh, do you have that? I have like the, a mix, a mix warrior-warrior. So I'm right in the middle. So basically like, I needed just enough stress to get me to move. But if I have too much stress, I'm like a disaster. But a lot of like entrepreneurs that I meet in investors, they like really do need a lot of stress to be at their best. And so the problem is that like, they need someone to help them maintain that level. You know, they need regular tune-ups. They need to be able to like handle the stress that they have and recover from it. So like stress isn't bad if you recover regularly. But like if you're not recovering at all, that's the problem. I think that's where a lot of athletes are starting to like be innovative in this way. Like if you look at the Olympic athletes and you look at the professional athletes, recovery is becoming just as important as training. And the same thing goes for these executives, these executive athletes, these executives who are like using their mind instead of their bodies every day to be like pushing themselves to the max. So- Have you found like some common things that you're telling all of these guys and girls that are this high level like habits? Like listen, you put this into your life. I promise that's gonna pay you back 10 fold. Is there common? Definitely meditation. But meditation is tricky because you don't wanna meditate to the level of like full of blown enlightenment because people who do that end up like dropping off the map. They're like, fuck, this isn't even meaningful. Like I don't even need to do life anymore. I just need to sit here and meditate. Like that happens to people sometimes when they do meditation retreats. You see that a lot with this. You see one extreme and the other extreme, right? Yeah, just the job entirely. Yeah, exactly, right? I know investors who've like totally fallen off the deep end on meditation. So it's like meditate to the point where you get that sense of focus and it's almost like a self love practice too because you're literally just being with yourself. And then it's just great for overall attention, I think is really key. And then just like helps you really maintain calm during the day and know that you can breathe. Really the breathing practice is the biggest value add, I think. And then there's infrared sauna or infrared mats. Like if you can't fit a sauna in your home like the bio mats, great. Just because like I've actually worn heart rate variability monitors as I was working. And I would find that like when I would lay on the bio mat like you could actually see my heart rate variability change and like become much healthier. So I'm a big fan of infrared sauna for that reason. It's just great for heart rate variability because it's the relaxation response. Like it's getting you, it's actually, the peripheral vasodilation literally is like turning on your parasympathetic nervous system. So you just need to balance out that sympathetic drive with some parasympathetic. It's a feedback loop. People don't realize that there's a, you can think something and cause a physical reaction or you can cause a physical reaction that then will cause you to think something. It's this, you know, like the gut, like we were talking about the gut earlier. There's this, you know, this positive feedback loop where if I have a bad gut and then that stresses me out, now I'm stressed out, that's going to make my gut worse. And then it becomes this vicious positive feedback. That's why meditation for me or mindfulness is so, it's such an effective interrupter for me. So when I find myself like getting anxious over something and it causing other issues, which that make me anxious, I can stop, become mindful, interrupt what's going on, stop the cycle. And then once you do that enough times, it's, it becomes easier and easier. It becomes habitual. It does. Now you're, because of what you do, the people you work with and your attitude, which is very, very open and cutting edge, are there things on the fringe that you have observed and work with? Like I know we're in Silicon Valley and I've, there's a lot of people who are doing things like micro dosing LSD for improved performance or psilocybin. Like what about that kind of stuff? I got interviewed by the Financial Times last year on a story about micro dosing LSD. Did you really? How, yeah, I was really nervous hitting my picture in financial times. Like we had a whole photo shoot and everything. I was like, please don't make me the poster child for this movement. But I'm actually pretty passionate about psychedelics as medicine. Really? Yeah. And the reason why is for a lot of people, meditation is just not going to become part of their lifestyle. And a lot of people want the shortcuts. That's gonna be part, like, that's like as we talked about before, there's kind of like this imperative biologically to just conserve energy and not waste time. And a lot of people just want the lazy route. And I'm not cause, I'm not saying that psychedelics are the lazy route, but it's kind of like the difference between like hiking the mountain and taking a plane to the top, right? Or taking a helicopter. Like, it's gonna take time for you to do it by meditation. But you can get, and by the way, I have actually tripped on a meditative experience, like literally like on my own neurochemistry. So it can be done. I did a nine day retreat. I was like higher than a kite when I left that. And I was totally sober whole time. It was nuts. I don't recommend driving. I was like, someone drove me home, but that was really cool. So, but with psychedelics like, I mean like the fundamental truth, and I'm talking more about like therapeutic psychedelic treatments for PTSD and for different traumas. The research coming from maps is phenomenal. Yeah, like this is a movement around healing people's trauma and our country is a traumatized country. We have been to multiple wars. We have caused a lot of harm in people's lives. A lot of men have killed a lot of people. And now we have this like consistent problem of young people killing each other. Like this is a traumatized country right now. So, I mean, like it's not even add like the Me Too movement and how many women and men have been sexually traumatized, right? So for at least people, like there aren't that many modalities of healing that really truly get down to that problem and say like what people think is happening with psychedelics is like, you go into the psychedelic state and you start processing that experience that you've had that was super painful under an experience that feels really quite good and that feels safe and feels nurturing and you're able to move through it and move past it. And this is like, these are veterans who are getting experiences with this, right? Like these are people who've had serious problems in their lives that are like saying, this has been transformative for me. These are people with end of life anxiety because they have cancer who are like, I have a reason to live while I'm still alive. And that's huge. And so like, as much as everyone wants to talk about microdosing and psilocybin, which I think are fabulous, if used appropriately and safely, which is hard to do because everyone's getting it under the table. You know, I would like to see these become mainstream medicine that can be prescribed by a doctor with a specific dose from a reputable supplier who you know isn't going to hurt you, right? Because like my experience with the underground San Francisco drug world is like, I have a lot of friends who are engineers. I know what the world looks like and there are people pushing drugs. And like, if you get drugs from a pusher, you're gonna take too much, you're gonna take the wrong dose and you're gonna get hurt. And that's a big problem with the Burning Man world. I can't tell you the number of people who I know who've been traumatized by drug experiences at Burning Man because they were irresponsible with how they took them. And so the conversation that I always try to have about these things is let's talk about harm reduction first and then let's talk about the benefits second. Because like if we don't reduce harm first and foremost, then we're gonna have the sixties all over again, which frankly like maybe moved us forward one step but maybe two steps back in some ways because now look at all the people, the baby members who are older and are addicted to opioids. Yes, absolutely. And it's funny too, context matters when you read the studies on like, there was a recent one published. So maps, our programs are called maps, our fitness programs, but then there's maps that multidisciplinary association of psychedelic studies. And they just published a study that I think it was like two thirds of the people being treated with MDMA who had untreatable PTSD, two thirds of them were essentially cured, which is nobody, like that's insane. When you have PTSD that's considered untreatable, like these are people who've gone for years and years and years of therapy and they're all in all these different medications and it's just terrible quality of life. When you get a two thirds cure rate, like that is absolutely groundbreaking but the context matters, they did it with therapists who are people who know how to talk people through, do psychotherapy while the person's on this particular substance. So it makes a tremendous difference. So it's not just people at home taking drugs on their own. They're like, okay, I'm gonna solve my PTSD. What's really interesting is that like, it's according to maps, it might be like two years within, we might be able to actually see this prescribed for compassionate use cases within two years. Well that's cool. That's very cool. So I heard that from Rick Domlin directly. Now you mentioned something else about this opiate epidemic, but I see lots of epidemics. I can't remember where I read this, but something like the amount of people prescribed SSRI drugs for non-depression like PMS and for other types of, it's like through the roof. And then we have kids on ADD, methamphetamine type medications like crazy, like what's going on here? Like first of all, are we getting sicker or is it just that we're finding more reasons to prescribe drugs? Like what's your opinion on this? That's a really good question. Or is it both? I think that we are getting sicker. I think that we are also, so like I know a lot of people in biotech and I actually know how that machine works now. And it's possible to make a lot of money if you develop a drug that has an effect on a problem. But in the process, like we have developed new problems, right? Like restless legs was not a disease like until very probably like 10 years ago. So we are inventing more problems, but I do think that a lot of people are generally not thriving and not adapting to the stress of our lives. And so people are just getting unhealthier. And so, I'd have to look at the rates of disease. Like certain diseases that we're doing much, much better and like childhood cancers, we're just killing it. We're literally just doing so well with that. And part of that reason is because they have so few doctors that are all working together to solve these problems together. And that you don't see that in a lot of other specialties where like all the doctors are truly getting together to come up with solutions that they can scale. Childhood cancers are a small population and there's like 250 doctors who all know each other and they're all developing protocols together. And so like what I need, I think we need to do in medicine is everyone needs to talk more and everyone needs to start developing these like protocol and systematic like solutions that are not just drugs that are like drugs maybe, but lifestyle, like Dale Bresden's protocol for early cognitive decline is phenomenal. He created a software program that coaches can use, taking labs, taking questionnaire data, providing you with a personalized plan for reversing your early cognitive decline. Like this is, we need to have software programs for every disease in order to show people like there's a personalized approach to treating everything. And there's a bunch of different things you can do for almost every disease, right? The question is what's gonna be the things that are right for you to do and your lifestyle. Yeah, one of the big ones that is to me seems alarming and maybe you know the statistics better than I do, but when I was a kid, I don't remember nearly as many allergies, food allergies in particular. Like when I was in school, I don't remember, I didn't have anybody in my classes or any tables that were allergen-free or peanut-free. Now when I send my kids to school, it's like this is a peanut-free school or these are the four tables, it's exploding. Well that's partially due to the fact that we've fed so many people, so many antibiotics and we've kind of screwed up the microbiomes of these people, which means like, if your microbiome isn't healthy, your immune system isn't healthy because most of your immune system is in your gut, so that's problematic. And so now they're just reacting to things that they shouldn't be reacting to, but then there's also the hygiene hypothesis and that as we become a cleaner and cleaner community and environment, we just haven't developed the tolerance that we had in the past, so yeah. Throw your kids in the dirt. Throw your kids in the dirt. Well, you know it's funny, so this is trip off this, right? So I can't remember the name of the book, but I was reading about these studies where people with autoimmune diseases will go and voluntarily give themselves a parasite. Oh yeah, helmet therapy. Yes. I literally was sending a patient with Crohn's this information last week. I was like, you need to talk to the doctor. So explain this. So apparently it's actually quite common for people outside of America to have parasites and if you look at the rates of, you know, immune dysfunction in other countries, it just doesn't even compare to ours. And the theory is that like their immune system is being better balanced by the fact that they have these like parasites living in their body that are keeping the TH1, TH2 arms of their immune system more in line. And so that's how I see it, I could be wrong, but the idea is that you introduce these like little worms that are sort of symbiotic and they're not, they're like they're parasites, but they're also like helping you. So it's more of a symbiosis. And it will help turn down your overactive immune system, the overactive side of your immune system that is actually causing you to have the autoimmunity. Now it's all experimental at this point still. We need a lot more research, but I mean, I'm all about experimentation. The funny thing is that that same patient, we're trying to get her a stool transplant. And I'm actually more excited about stool transplant or anything. Because like, I know that we're gonna be able to modulate people's bodies by changing their microbiomes. And her partner, we were gonna do a stool transplant from him, but his microbiome looked just like hers because they live together. So that's the funny thing that you learn about people. And this is actually kind of funny to even go into this whole discussion. But I always try to tell people, like when you think about even sexual behavior, you need to ask yourself, if you're gonna sleep with this person, do you wanna share your microbiome with them? It's so true. Cause you're sharing your oral microbiome, your vaginal microbiome, you're sharing it. Dude, you want that? You go down on somebody, you're getting their microbiome in your gut. Same thing with, if you have dogs in the family, if people who have dogs carry more dog oral bacterial than people who don't have dogs. Like it's just a thing. I learned this when I was doing research on the oral microbiome for a tech startup. So. Wow, maybe that's why you guys are having good issues. Now you're hanging out with me. You're all assurance. Stop making that one. I wanna circle back to a couple of times already in this conversation, we've discussed like emotions and I'm reading a good book right now and I'm just curious to do you have a theory on how emotions are made that you subscribe to? I've actually been doing like quite a lot of like under, like I have a bunch of Evernote files on emotion right now. And so like one of the best phrases I've heard about emotions is like emotions are energy and motion. And like a lot of what I feel emotions are is like this physical reaction that we have a story that we attach to, right? And so typically if you get, if you become emotional it's gonna pass within a certain period of time. Emotions become problematic when we resist them. And especially when like something traumatic happens in our lives, like we don't act like animals where we just like shake for like an hour and then we like move on. We, sometimes we do, but like a lot of people like bury their emotions and like they just like don't wanna deal with them. And I think that that is actually one of the more maladaptive ways to be a human because it just doesn't seem like you're able to process things. And like typically the more you process stuff the better you feel. And so processing it in the moment, letting it go is typically like the best way to deal with things but it's just not really allowed in our culture. And that's, I mean it's not nearly as bad as like British culture where like, oh my God they just do not like emotions at all. And then they just get drunk and deal with them, you know? So I mean like I have so many notes on this but do I have it all like totally ready for like prime time? No, not yet. Well, I mean the old classical theory is that like this old the primal like something happened to us and we react to it. And so I feel like we've thought about it that way for such a long time that someone just said this to me therefore I feel this way and that's as deep as we look but there's so many other. And I like what you would say that again what you said. Emotions are energy and motion. Yes, and I think that's where we're at now is that there's many pathways to an emotion and there's many factors and variables that can play a role in this. It's not simply someone does this and it makes me feel this way. It may just feel that way today because of what happened today or where your current mindset is. And then I think teaching people how to and I try and give this as a tip. So like when I'm helping people with self-awareness I'm always talking about your state change throughout your day. Like everything from happy emotions and sad and angry and then learning how to unpack that and go like, okay, today, you know Molly said something to me today and I noticed that like bothered me or that excited me and why is that? And then unpacking that. I think it's really fascinating. It's when it comes to, it's also how you interpret your own emotions like excitement and anxiety are identical. I mean biochemically, right? Aren't they exactly the same? It's literally your perspective on the problem. Totally. So it's like, okay, you're anxious. No, you're excited. You can literally switch that. I've done it before. I mean that gets into the whole discussion around like maladaptive neural patterns people make when they don't know how to manage emotion. And you see this with people who are chronically depressed where they're like, they've literally consolidated this pathway around negativity that they've like built this brain pathway kind of like when you're in the woods and you're like making a trail. Like they've only built the trail to like the bad place. They haven't built the trail to the good place yet. So they literally have to like redirect their brain and build new neural networks to think differently. Totally. And that takes, by the way, it takes just as much work to be happy as it does to be sad and people don't realize that. No, you're strengthening it. So one of the things I love most about fitness is fitness is a very primitive, basic microchasm of all the stuff that we're talking about. So I'll give you an example. So you're talking about patterns. Well, we talk about muscle recruitment patterns. So if I squat a particular way for 15 years, I'm gonna have to unlearn that way to squat and squat a new way so that then when I squat without thinking, I squat differently. Exactly. But at first it's gonna require me to consciously think about my positioning as I squat, where I place my hips, where I place my knees. And I have to practice it enough consciously before it becomes unconscious. It is no different than, look, some people can just be tired. Other people can be tired and be like, that means I'm depressed. And that's because they've made those connections so in every single time now that they're, you know, they feel good chemicals are down rather than feeling tired and depleted, they feel depressed. And that's what they end up strengthening. I've dealt with that myself. Like I sometimes work myself into the ground too much. And then I get like, and then I'm like, why am I so sad? And I'm like, oh yeah, I like worked for two weeks straight. Maybe I just need to recover. And then I'll take like two days off and I'll be like a totally new person on Monday. And it's literally just cause I need more recovery. It's that simple. Do you find, I find this common with high achievers. I've worked with a lot of them as a trainer for you know, high paying clients and we've met quite a few of them and I have co-hosts that are very high achieving. And I find that high achievers tend to have like two gears like on or off. Like I'm either super interested and motivated as hell or not at all. Is that, that's true for you too? My sister, well, one of my sisters, she hung out with me for like a month and when she was trying to figure out her life and she's like, Molly, you know, it's really weird. Like you're either just working or partying. And I was like, well, I don't party that much. She's like, I know you don't, but like you work a lot. And I'm like, yeah, cause I like what I do. But like I do, I do have a good life. I have a great social life too. You know, I think it's really important to have balance. But sometimes I don't even go out on weekends cause I'm just like, I don't need to see the world. I just need to sleep. Like I like last weekend I slept like 12 hours one night and it was awesome. I woke up the next day being like, yeah. I like, I like feel like a million times better. And that's the thing, like I just needed more recovery. Yeah. So simple as that. I know that intelligence, high intelligence is correlated relatively strongly with like a little bit of crazy or a little bit of like Oh, totally. Depression or a little bit of like, like dysfunction. Yeah. It's very strongly, I mean, it's pretty strongly correlated. I wonder if, you know, if I've speculated this in the past, I wonder if what makes some people so good or intelligent or effective is because they're so different and a little bit dysfunctional. You gotta be a little neurotic. You have to be a little weird. I mean, I'm definitely embraced my like weirdness since I've moved to San Francisco. Like I felt like I found my spiritual home when I moved to the Bay Area. Where were you from originally? From Illinois, Curia, Illinois. Oh, okay. So it's like, totally different. It's like America. It's totally different. But yeah, I always think about that like, oh, and then of course working with these really smart people, I'm like, they're all just a little bit weird. Oh yeah. Or a little bit off. So many of my friends who are like just the most unbelievable people that I cannot even like fathom how smart they are, they're kind of weird to hang out with. Like I'm not gonna like, they're kind of strange, but like I thrive on hanging out with people who make me get a sense of awe and wonder and just like a sense of holy shit curiosity. Like that's what I just love about my friends is like the people that I spend time with and make time for are like, they're just constantly blowing my mind and it's great. That's awesome. It's super great. So what are you doing now right now? I know you're working with... Oh yeah, there's this company called Sano Intelligence that I'm like crazy obsessed with and I've been obsessed with for five years and it's a minimally invasive continuous glucose monitoring patch that you just slap on your arm, download the app, turn it on and you're ready to go and you can see your blood sugar throughout the course of a day. So this is a, so a continuous glucose monitor. Continuous glucose monitor. Measures your blood sugar in real time. So what you have right now in your hand is a, or what you had in your hand was a monitor about the size of maybe like a garage opener. And on it, you can see, like in real time, you eat a meal, you can see glucose rise or fall. You could see if stress does anything to you. You can see if you're on a keto diet, then nothing happens. That's, yeah, yeah, you could see all these different things but the problem with these monitors in the past is they're invasive, even the one you have on now has a little tiny needle that goes in your arm, which means you have to get a prescription for it. But the company you're working with is working on one that's minimally invasive. Yes. So it's the size of the needles are just microscopic. They're super, super small. So it's more of like, it feels like kind of like Velcro than it does like a needle. Now we are still dealing with some form factor issues. It kind of currently like doesn't look like the sleek Apple product yet, but we're trying to get it there. And don't get me wrong, the micro needles are in your skin but like it's not the same as like seeing, when you take it and you look at it, you're like, you don't see a big needle staring back at you. You see like a ton of tiny, tiny imperceptible needles. So when it gets put on your arm, you get a 24-hour readback on your, you basically get consistent levels sent to your phone. Instead of having to carry this. Oh, so you have an app. You literally just have an app that you can open up and it will start reminding you and sending you feedback on like, for example, last week when I had some sugar at lunch, which I never do, but I did and I spiked, it would alert me, hey, what did you eat? And then I would track that. And the thing about tracking that's really important is that you might realize that this thing makes you feel better, makes you spike, but are you keeping track of this over time? Are you actually really, like, if I look at the, I've worn this for like the whole year, this Libre Pro, pretty much off and on for like a year. And I can tell you, there's a lot of things that cause me to spike, but I didn't actually keep a record of all of them. I just know now in my head, but it'd be really nice if I had an app that just like told me, oh yeah, that's not something you should be eating. Yeah, let's talk about that in like the old digital health space and like what's kind of, what does the future landscape look for that? Cause I know that's going to be a breakthrough product for just your everyday consumer to be able to have access to, like what would the utopian sort of look, what would that look like? I mean, I think the utopian is that we all have implantable in our body. That's like giving us feedback on stress, on sleep timing, on exercise, on glucose, on like in real time, like that would be right. I feel like we're close to that. We will be there within like probably 10 years. It sounds like a Black Mirror episode on that. It is so a Black Mirror episode. I really want there to be like a show called White Mirror. That's the like, it's also like positive. Yeah, it's like the positive version of the future because the thing about Black Mirror that I heard, here's the reason why it's scary. They take everything that's cool and cutting-edge and innovative, and they weaponize it. And so that's why it scares the shit out of you because you're like, they're literally turning all these things that like all these robots into like killing machines. Of course that's scary. Now, I think it's also just like, it's providing us a reflection of our culture and society. But I, for the most part, want to see the future look bright and beautiful. And I'm very fortunate that a lot of my friends are working on like really cool projects, like using drones to replant trees throughout the world at like 10X faster and 10X cheaper than current replant. Like I have friends that are doing crazy shit and I'm sorry for cussing out here, guys. This is my pump now, yeah, keep it going. But yeah, so like I think that we need more media that's like nourishing our brains and making us hopeful for the future. And less of this like everything has to be negative because that's what all people will watch. Like I'm, people watched Full House and Saved by the Bell. Most of our family friendly shows. So we need more of those, right? We all love the Kali Kipowski. Don't we need more of those? I think it's like, I mean, if you look at history, we always tend to do this like pendulum thing, right? It swings real hard one way, then comes back the other. And I think that's just one of the things that we're going through right now. And we're gonna see it swing back the other directions. Please bring back the 90s. Yeah, I think so. I think you're already starting to see it in fashion. You already see it. Some of the shit I was wearing back in the 90s coming back in style. So I think that the 90s are coming back, dude. It's coming back. Well, it's changing so fast. I mean, media is all becoming, like my kids do not know movie stars or TV stars. They know YouTube stars. Instagram stars. And all that shit, like it's ridiculous. I went to the mall with my daughter and my daughter's telling me about, oh, that's what it was. She had her cell phone. She's only eight by the way. And she has this old cell phone. And on the home screen is some picture of some girl. So I'm like, oh, is that like a friend of yours? And she goes, no, I don't even know the person's name. She's like, that's so-and-so. She's a YouTube star. I'm like, what? Then we walk over to, I don't remember the name of the store, Clare's, I think it's called. And we walk in there and there's a whole section devoted to this girl and her products on YouTube. It's crazy. That's amazing. It's insane. So yeah, things are changing very quickly. But with this glucose monitor that you guys are working on, that'll be available to the average consumer. So the average person will be able to use it. But you're working with people now who are wearing the more invasive one, but you have a lot of experience working with this. What are some of the crazier things that you're seeing that are affecting people's blood sugar or glucose? Well, okay. So in medical school, you learn about the basics of the stress response and glucocorticoids and what those do for insulin resistance and what those do to release glucose into your blood to help you get out of danger, for example, right? So stress is designed to get us to move. And the reason why we typically want to move is if it was K-Van times, we want to run away from dangerous things. So when you liberate glucose, you provide your muscle with some supply to actually get out of something. Now this happens because you get stressed, cortisol goes up. Cortisol goes up. Takes it out of the liver, the sugar out of the liver. Yeah, you liberate glucose and you have the fuel you need to get out of danger. So the problem is that people are stressed out, but they're not moving, right? They're not moving because they don't know that. There isn't real danger there or whatever. There's not real danger. It's like fake danger, right? It's like someone was mean to me. And that happens. So people are going to work and they're in toxic workplaces or they're coming home and they're with a toxic partner or maybe they have five kids and they don't have any help and they are reacting to everything. And the thing is that stress response I found is really, really interesting with blood sugar because you can actually see on days when people are stressed that the curve has more variability to it. It's more jagged. It doesn't have that smooth curve and that smooth rise and drop with the meals that you would expect. And you see it just generally higher. So the average daily glucose is higher on those days. So stress is fascinating. And I don't think that people with diabetes are thinking enough about this. There are papers on this, but they're not widespread. And then there's a bunch of other things that can affect blood glucose. Like low testosterone can affect blood glucose. Obviously your macronutrients makes a difference. Proteins and carbohydrates mostly, mostly with carbs, mostly refined carbs and sugar. But also portions, like if you eat too much of something you're gonna see your blood sugar go up. Like alcohol has an interesting effect on blood sugar where some people it makes it go up and some people it makes it go down. Interesting, why would it make it go down? I don't really totally understand the feedback on this right now. I have some literature need to read on it, but I do think like I actually wish I had like a more intelligent approach to answer that, but like I don't know. And then there's, what are all the other things there? So there's obviously fitness. So certain activities will make your blood sugar go down from fitness, but then certain, if you like end up stressing your body out, it can go up. So I had a client who was, who had just become diabetic, good friend of mine, and he would always measure his blood sugar and we would work out. And whenever we would do like a hard workout, and I didn't understand this at the time, he'd come back and be like, man, Sal, my blood sugar was like through the roof. And I'm like, that's so weird. We just worked out. Like that doesn't make any sense. But then I started putting it together. I'm like, holy shit, we're stressing him too much. And he's getting this big dump from his liver because he's too stressed out. So now he's got high blood sugar. And he's not recovering either too, you know? Maybe he's not sleeping well at night. That's crazy. It's another big thing is sleep. So just like sleep and circadian rhythm disturbances is just terrible for your metabolism, which is why if you're traveling across the country, sorry, across like multiple continents, I definitely recommend fasting to help with jet lag because you've got clock genes in your gut and your clock genes in your brain and you can actually reset those clocks. How does that work? So what do you mean so you fast? So light comes into your brain in the morning through your eyes and it activates a super charismatic nucleus in your hypothalamus. And then that has downstream effects throughout your hormone system from pituitary that actually basically turns on the clocks of your other organs essentially. Most of your organs actually have clock dependent genes. So there's tons of new research coming out. Someone won the Nobel Prize on all this this year. Wow, that's fascinating. So do you fast and then wait to eat until? Fasting basically helps you reset your peripheral clocks as well as light timing. So what I tell people to do is fast like an hour or two, start fasting an hour or two before you leave for your flight and then get on that new meal schedule when you get on land. So the next meal that people have, that's your next meal. And then if it's nighttime, just keep on fasting and go to sleep if you can. I had never heard this before but it makes total sense. It's really amazing how many people tell me. Yeah, cause we just went overnight red-eyed to Tampa for some podcasting trip and it was brutal. I wish I knew this. Honestly, tell me how it works for you because I've had so many people come back to me and be like, oh my God, you seriously changed my life. I have friends who just travel for a living all over the world and they're like, you gave me a month of my life back because of this. Wow. Cause I'm not recovering from jet lag. Yeah. Wow, that's awesome. It is crazy. So circadian rhythms is really key. That's freaking rad. So you're gonna come on our show a lot more regularly, right? That's freaking awesome. Yeah. I would love for you to be like our guest resident. I'm into it. Awesome doctor. You're not too far, right? How long do you think you're here? It's like an hour. Oh yeah, no big deal. Yeah, this is freaking rad, man. Well, now that we've introduced you to our audience, I would love to set that up maybe a follow-up in 30 days or so where you come back and we'll actually have specific questions that our audience wants to give you. Oh my God, your audience had so many questions on skin biohacking. Oh yeah? They asked all those on your Instagram. Oh yeah, and let me tell you something. You're a great way to get your name out there and grow your own. And you're an entrepreneur, you're trying to grow that brand and stuff, so we would like for you to come back on the show. I'll come back for sure. Just go easy on all them young guys, huh? I know, I know, oh my God. You know how many, you know how many of them are friends? You're gonna get a shit ton of DMs after this one now. Here's your boss, Adam. Like all day shooting, no. Hi, I'm 22. So my 25-year-old rip dude is like, I'm also real mature and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's really funny is that like, typically I'm the one who has to talk to the guy first because guys just are like too afraid to talk to me. Like that's a regular thing. Because you're really smart. Yeah, you're really smart. I know, apparently that's scary. Well, that's what I was seeking for when I was asking those questions because when you are, I mean, it can be intimidating for a lot of people. So I was reading, I remember what I was reading, but it was about how people tend to pick a mate. It was really interesting, fascinating research, and this is general, of course. There's always massive individual variances, but women tend to seek mates that are either on the same level of them, on the hierarchy scale, if you will, or slightly below them, and men slightly above them, excuse me, slightly above them, and men tend to want people across and down. Wait, is this in what? So dating, so whatever that means. Attraction, money, status, like what? All of that, right? That's all included in hierarchy. Yeah, so women tend to want men that are at their level or slightly above, and men tend to want women that are at their level or slightly below. Oh, interesting. And here's the thing, the higher a woman's intelligence is and the more she earns, the higher the likelihood that she won't find a mate or whatever because of that. Because you're narrowing the field, right? So, and this is a common one, so you're really smart, you gotta find a super smart. Yeah, I mean, that one thing that I have to say in common with all the guys I've dated is they have all been really smart. Yeah, because you'd be bored otherwise. Yeah, so bored. Actually, that's my biggest issue is I get bored, and then I'm just like, oh, I gotta break up with you. But what's really funny is like, I've got these guys, I've got like a bunch of best friends that are married guys, and they're like, they're like such amazing dudes, and they're just like, literally we just hang out because they just blow my mind all the time. So like, what I need to do is find someone like them who's like super duper smart and who consistently blows my mind, who I actually wanna like stay with, you know? So like, they exist, they just happen to be married usually. Yeah, it happens, yeah. We'll find them. Cool, well thanks for coming on. Oh my God, thank you so much, this was so fun. Yeah, I appreciate it. Appreciate it, you're awesome. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at minepumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance, and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at minepumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump.