 your presentation today as I'm sure this particular audience is COVID brings some really critical questions to mind for all of us but particularly I think that interplay between migrants and how we build a world over the next 12-18 months which is going to be safe for all of us and I think that's something which you know we all have a stake holding in so thank you very much look forward to hearing what to say and look very much forward to hearing what you have to say so thank you very much thank you for your introduction and also I take this opportunity to thank you for all the support that Arish has been giving to IOM and it's a pleasure to see David again and it's it's and even more rewarding because not not only David played the key role in the New York Declaration that is essential for IOM today after the adoption of the global compact but also it is an opportunity for us all to pay tribute to the memory of Peter Sutherland a very good friend a very close friend a friend that helped us all very much to get to the point where we are I would propose to you to divide my introduction in three parts the first one what takes my sleep at night the second one a few good news and the third one about the future of mobility which is something that is concerning me quite a lot the first part about the challenges that IOM is facing due to the COVID-19 crisis I will start by what is self-evident the situation in the camps in the camps of refugees in the camps of migrants in the camps of internally displaced people a little bit all over all over the world the good news is that the COVID-19 crisis has not yet arrived in full shape to the camps but it's just a question of time and camps are a very prone to disease environment as you can imagine social distance is impossible in the camps we have done quite a lot of work in Cox's Bazaar or in other places in trying to prevent and to raise awareness of the camps population but unfortunately we have to register 200 infected cases in mainland Greece UNHCR took notice of the first infection case in the Greek islands we have five active cases in Cox's Bazaar in host population of Bangladesh is where there are more than 120 infected cases and in environments where we have to deal with conflict and instability IOM is quite used to that as you know because we had to deal with the Ebola crisis in West Africa and more recently in North Kivu amid a conflict and the tribal and terrorist activities but in fact in Yemen the situation is for the time being clearly underreported but we are very concerned with the situation in Yemen or in the IDP camps in West Africa and in the Sahel just to give you an idea only in the miles of March IDPs in Burkina Mali and Niger have grown by 33 percent new 370,000 people internally displaced and if you look to Latin America you will see that the COVID-19 crisis the insecurity the loss of jobs to Venezuelan migrants has started a process of return of Venezuelans back to Venezuela and we are talking about the small number for the time being if you consider that in Colombia you have 1.8 million Venezuelans but the 52,000 are now returning back to Venezuela in large crowds walking and without any sanitary conditions so camps and movement of migrants are a source of enormous concern and they are environments very much prone to the spread of the disease. My second concern you may recall that in the negotiation of the global compact on migration one of the most serious issues and the controversial one was to guarantee the access to basic services to migrants in the countries of destination and in the countries of trend and especially there was the very famous discussion for those who joined these who follow these discussions about the firewalls establishing firewalls in access to basic services in order to prevent basic services to be used as migration enforcement mechanism and at the end of the day in the global compact the firewalls were not taken on board and then last year if you recall also in the general assembly of the United Nations there was a debate about the declaration on universal health coverage and the last point to be agreed and one of the most controversial ones was precisely should migrants be entitled to universal health coverage and finally at the end migrants were included well this crisis this COVID-19 crisis is the best demonstration how important universal health coverage is because if we do not guarantee access of migrants irrespective of their legal status to health care to health services to tracking and the testing and treatment it's the entire community that is under threat and if you look to what happened in Singapore it's a very interesting example because the Singaporeans were very effective in containing the pandemic but they left quite a large number of migrants outside the system and then suddenly you had a focus of infection in the migrant community and you had to close down a game and to have a specific dedicated focus on tracking and testing the migrants themselves so access to health universal health access to health is the first key lesson to be taken from this major pandemic then my third issue of concern are the urban slums where large parts of migrants live both in the developed world and in the developing world in very precarious conditions with often depending on informal economy where distancing is not possible where quarantines or lockdowns mean being deprived of basic income if you look to what is happening in Brazil or if you look to what is happening in Mexico you will see how in those slums the disease is spreading quite fast and there are huge numbers of people dying the same can be said for instance of migrants in detention or in collective deportations and expulsion and the UN migration network has just published two important statements one on alternatives to detention for migrants and the other one on asking a halt a stop in collective deportations in order to guarantee that the migrants are not exposed to the pandemic but of course and this is my third concern is about the economic impacts of this COVID-19 pandemic and what we are thinking is that usually migrants work in sectors that are very seriously hit by the lockdowns by the travel restrictions by the economic crisis in construction in tourism even in home care for the elderly and of course those people are losing their jobs creating two very concerning impacts the first one is the situation of the stranded migrants with borders closed with the travel restrictions with lockdowns we have thousands and thousands of migrants that some of them want to return home because they have no further hope of finding a job in the countries of destination and others were on the move and were blocked by the border closures and we have large amounts of them living together in very precarious conditions whether it is in the border of Ethiopia with Djibouti or whether in West and Central Africa in Nigeria in Asia people who are very difficult to reach for health care people who are living in very precarious conditions and of course in an environment that will fuel the spread of the disease but there is a second element which is extremely important if migrants in countries of destination lose their jobs there will be a significant impact in the drop of remittances to countries of origin the World Bank as a forecast as a forecast of a reduction of 20% of a drop of remittances this year because of the COVID-19 pandemic and the socioeconomic crisis associated with and there are countries that depend on 10% or more of their GDP on remittances for migrants so in countries of origin it's not only just the direct socioeconomic impact of pandemic it will also be the indirect impact due to the significant drop of remittances from migrants coming from outside that's why we are dealing with a health crisis but we are at the same time dealing with its socioeconomic impacts and one thing cannot be seen without the other and there is a need to have an integrated approach that's what IOM is trying to do and that's the entire UN system is trying to achieve both with the humanitarian assistance the ELS assistance but also the socioeconomic recovery assistance now the good news the good news I think is that it's very interesting to see that several countries have had a positive response to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic in their own territory for instance in Portugal I'm sorry to give the example of Portugal but it's one of the few I have in Portugal those migrants were waiting for a decision on and asylum seekers were waiting for a decision they were granted automatic authorization to stay in the country on a legal basis for the duration of the pandemic but even more significant in Italy the government has just decided to regularize 600,000 irregular migrants that are badly needed for the agriculture and for the industry precisely to be able to count with that workforce to respond to the impacts of economic impacts of the COVID-19 and also in some cities in the United States like for example Chicago and New York they are providing cash based and housing assistance to migrants in need so there is a certain move in some countries to recognize the need to incorporate migrants in the response of the crisis from the economic social and legal point of view but even more significant than that in a number of countries migrants have been considered essential workers it's a very interesting concept that came out during these debates essential workers and not just the Einstein of this world not just the ideal skill that was welcomed in the countries of destination what are essential workers well they are the ones who drive the public transportations that never stop those are the ones were in the supermarkets those are the ones were in the delivery sector those are the one who were in the health care and in a number of countries these workers have been recognized as being in the frontline of assuring that life could go on in spite of the lockdowns while the natives were comfortably living in their homes protected from the virus those migrants were in the frontline working for the cities to go on being delivering the necessary basic services for the entire for the entire community and I could even mention more target the role of migrants in health care system home care but also in the hospitals in countries like the UK US or Canada 30% of the doctors are migrants or ever migrant origin in Switzerland near half of the doctors are foreign born and if the OECD figures are correct from 2016 in Ireland 42% of doctors were foreign born and 296% of nurses were foreign born and I think that this is a very good example that migrants were on the front line we're confronting the virus to preserve the health of the entire community and even more striking in a number of countries especially in Europe some seasonal car crops depend a lot on migrant workforce and some countries like the UK or Italy they have all even authorized shutter flights to facilitate the entry of temporary workers mainly from eastern Europe or Northern Africa in order to guarantee that the crops were not lost and that the seasonal agricultural works could be done effectively so there are good examples having said that and this is my last point I still am very much concerned about the politicization of the migration debate about the examples of the scapegoating migrants as virus carriers and I'm also concerned with the profitability for populists from the crisis and that will require in a discussion about the what will be the future of mobility we at IOM we are discussing this issue thoroughly internally for the time being we have a dialogue with iCal and with the international maritime organization because those are two international agencies that are very much involved sorry Indian people's mobility but my key concern is we will have to be imaginative and creative recognizing that the future of mobility will depend on the way we reconcile legitimate else security concerns with the principle of movement of people that is and separate from open societies democratic societies free trade and the free movement of goods and services and this is very challenging because we see some ideas coming up tracking systems apps to track people we see immunity certificates we see e-health declarations a number of things that are coming up they are not yet system ties but definitely they will have a say in the future of mobility you remember that after the 9-11 the changes in the security for traveling the liquids the things you could not carry with you because they were potentially up now the point is no longer the things you carry with you now you are the problem you became the problem because you might be carrying with you the virus and the the main concern I had is that we should not let the establishment of a two-tier or even a three-tier system of countries as far as mobility is concerned some countries are more capable to set up the infrastructures and the necessary mechanisms to have systems capable to assess the health condition of those who are traveling but others won't have that and we might be creating a system where the access to mobility will be limited by economic condition social condition countries of origin creating bubbles of movement that do not interoperate and this is particularly important in countries where there is a high level of commuters across borders working across borders and living in another country which is by the way very typical here in Geneva where I'm today but I'm sure that you know that also in the Irish in the Irish Island not just from the economic point of view but also a very sensitive question from the political point of view so we are at the crossroads we are at the crossroads things can still evolve in a very negative way for the future of mobility but things can also evolve in a more positive way if we are able to put on the table a fair honest reasonable open conversation about how much we need mobility how much mobility can contribute for the development not only of the countries of the nation but also for the countries of origin there you have David sorry for being so long I've tried to stick to the 20 minutes but the the agenda as the French say we have bread on the table thank you so much well thank you very much Antonio and in fact you are admirably concise for what is a very very complex and ever widening agenda thank you so much on the on behalf of the institute you delivered some very powerful messages there all about the exposure of migrants to the virus in in health terms but also to its impact economically and socially and I think you are at the same time noted that some states are trying to rule against the tide of of hostility or perhaps tide is exaggerated but there is undivided hostility in some quarters but there are notable examples like Portugal and a few other countries that we can which can inspire us and I think Ireland also I would like to think is in a reasonably supportive state in terms of of migrant interests and then you talked you talked in a way in troubling terms about the threats which will arise in the future to mobility the kind of automatic mobility open movement between states that we have we have committed to you you talked about the the restrictions which we may have to accept coming out of this it was a wonderful presentation Tony thank you so much and a lot to to reflect on and I'd now like to invite those participating in this event to ask Antonio questions to to make comments to react to some of the points he has raised I should say that this is a discussion which is entirely on the public record so let me see have we any questions coming in already or but otherwise I would invite people to use the function I think it's at the bottom of the screen maybe Antonio just while people are gathering their their thoughts I might I might ask you just to explore a little further one of the things a very interesting angle about IOM that it could itself be involved gradually in in in supporting governments with their testing and screening arrangements because you already if I understand correctly IOM is already doing that de facto with its medical centers around the world with its labs and one could under the heading of future mobility one could imagine that IOM might eventually have a wider remit to to help or at least it would support governments as they try to to improve and accelerate their their testing arrangements would you be able to say anything about that thank you David well you are absolutely right I should have mentioned island also is a very good example because as far as I know there has been a decision to renew for two months automatically the international protection and migration measures and there's a there has already been a second renewal so that's also a very good example in parallel with other countries in the world that I mentioned so I'm happy that you allowed me to have a specific reference to Ireland that I appreciate very much not as impressive as Portugal but nevertheless no no nevertheless no no no all good examples are helpful in this moment well we are and David you know very well IOM IOM is a highly projectized organization so we have a project we get the funding we do the project fortunately donors have been very flexible in accepting to reshift quite a number of projects that whether they are slowed down or even are blocked for the current situation in order to shift those projects towards supporting countries in the fight against the pandemic I could give you a long list of examples but one of the most striking examples is precisely in southern Africa and in east Africa and in west Africa we have been deploying our medical staff to support national health systems who are very weak and were very much unprepared to confront this this pandemic we are building capacity in those countries in terms of the hospital facilities to deal with this virus and we are even training doctors and nurses in this new ground of how to deal with the virus of which there are still many questions that remain unanswered it's perceived as a threat but fortunately IOM had an experience with the Ebola crisis in 2015 in west Africa and more recently in North Kivu in the Democratic Republic of Congo and therefore we are very much engaged in supporting member states in Africa in scaling up their capacity to respond to the pandemic including including the possibility of having our networks doing the testing and giving medical support because something that is not usually very well known is that IOM in the world has 60 clinics 60 60 clinics we have our 18 laboratories and we have two tele radiology centers one in Nairobi and the other one in Manila because we do quite a lot of work of health assessment of migrants before they move and all those movements are blocked now so we are using and putting this capability installed capacity at the service not only of the countries where we have them but also of the entire UN system to accomplish our duty of care not only in relation to the UN staff but also in relation to the implementing partners especially the NGOs that worldwide work with us are on the front line humanitarian workers hate workers and of course they are very much exposed to the threat of the virus looking ahead looking for the future we think that we are well positioned to scale up this capacity and to put it at the service of a mobility system that introduces health screening and health assessments in the worldwide movement of people so we are ready to take up this challenge and even going beyond our mandate because to be honest we have very much focused on migrants but of course we do that quite a lot on internally displaced people for instance which are not exactly international migrants but they are also in need of support from the medical point of view and with refugees we have scaled up our capacities in Cox's Bazaar we have done quite a large upgrade of our capacities in West Africa and in the Sahel and more recently in East Africa especially in Somalia and in Kenya and in Djibouti that's it thank you very much Antonio I must say I think it's very impressive what you are doing in relation to the support from member states particularly in Africa and indeed you're working also with IDPs which in a strict sense is beyond the mandate but the reality is that if IOM doesn't do it nobody will do it and IDPs are very much at the center of the crisis as well just turning to something else and Johnny we're all obviously anxious about what could develop in the camps we've seen the news about cases now or a case I think in in Lesbos and then several cases of Cox's Bazaar you referred then to the those on the Greek mainland as well but one question from Karen Smith asks is there is there more that can be done to manage resettlement and asylum activity in Europe in order to relieve the pressure on the camps is the more that we as a European Union should be doing over the next 12 to 18 months to actually try to lower some of the pressure on the camps which now could could really take off I suppose another way of asking that question would be what scope do you see for the asylum and migration pact which I think is is due to be brought to a conclusion over the next few months well that's a very critical question as you know IOM and UNHCR in agreement have suspended the resettlement operations because of the closure of the borders and the travel restrictions but what we can guarantee both IOM and UNHCR is that we have gone working we have kept our work in the processing of asylum claims and in all the preparatory work so that when the borders are open we will be ready to resume resettlement operations but just to give you an example the lockdowns in March created a backlog of 10 000 refugees who are blocked were already selected to move and they could not move because of the restrictions so we are ready to make that put them on the move and up to now this is the positive side up to now no country that has accepted to take refugees for 2020 has dropped their offer so the offer still stands and therefore it's just a practical question of being allowed to do the movement having said that let's be honest the numbers are very much ahead beyond any capacity no just to put it very clearly the numbers are very low in comparison to the needs that's the way of putting it okay there has been a significant drop of a refugee resettlement for the United States as you know the figures of Europe in a number of cases have gone up but not enough to cover the gap created by the reduction of the US and we are talking for instance in the Rohingya case of almost one million people living in the Cox's Bazaar camps so resettlement can only cope with a limited part of the refugees that are in the camps which means that the vast majority will have to be addressed by direct action in the camps scaling up our medical capacities prevention prevention prevention and trying to install water stations for instance guaranteeing the access to water which is one of the most critical challenges because you can save two people you have to wash your hands several times a day if you have no water how can you wash your hands several times a day we distribute disinfectant but of course it's quite a huge challenge and every day i fear what figures might come from the from the refugees and the migrant camps over thanks and joining you in fact i just if i may come back to the the the the the question of the european the the new pattern migration asylum because i see that Sophie McGinnis of UNHCR's Reps station Ireland has asked what hopes you have for the new asylum and migration pact i think the commission is meant to be publishing it soon well we we are engaged in a dialogue with the european commission about the pact there are different dimensions to the pact that we consider equally relevant of course one of them where i believe IOM and UNHCR together can give an important contribution is precisely to deal with the situation of migrants and refugees in countries of origin and in countries of transit as we are doing in a number of places in the Sahel in West Africa in the East Africa or for instance in northern Africa including in Libya this part of the pact is extremely important because for for two years now we have together with the european union we and with the african union a joint approach to the situation in Libya and we think that this tripartite approach can be extended and replicated in other parts of the african continent and having these tripartite work european union united nations mainly IOM and UNHCR and the african union brings added value to the cooperation to deal with the situation of asylum seekers and migrants the second dimension is an internal dimension to the european union which in the internal dimension there are also two strings that should be taken into consideration one is the internal solidarity of Europe and that has been a crucial issue without re-establishing mutual trust and a thought of a greed system of sharing solidarity among the european member states it will be very difficult to have a pact on asylum and migration that is worth the name and the second string is the connection between the situation in the Mediterranean and especially the issue of the disembarkation disembarkation of those who are trying to cross the Mediterranean the figures show that there has been a slight decrease in crossing the Mediterranean in the western Mediterranean in relation to Spain there has been a slight increase in arrivals in central Mediterranean especially to Malta and to Italy and the figures on the eastern Mediterranean mainly in relation to the Greek islands are as far as at the end of April at the same level of last year by the same period of the of the year the figures are very far from 2015 of course we are talking about seven thousand people arriving in Greece we are talking about more or less the same figure of arrivals in them in Italy and we are talking about five thousand people arriving in Spain the problem is that those are very dangerous trips especially in central Mediterranean and we have always said that Libya is not a safe port of disembarkation and the COVID-19 crisis brought also more confusion on the possibility of disembarkation and save and rescue in central Mediterranean so there is a need when it comes to the European Union to clarify the rules and the principles for guaranteeing safe disembarkation of those who are rescued in the Mediterranean. Over. Thank you very much Antonio. Donald Cronin of Irish Aid asks about the global compact on migration and the extent to which that can be relevant to a coordinated response to the crisis do you see it as something useful and relevant or is it possibly masking further or does it contain the seeds for further conflict? Well as you can imagine migration as a whole and the refugees as a whole are not exactly on top of the agenda of the countries because the response to the COVID-19 crisis was mainly closing borders and turning inwards but I'm sure that the issues will come up to the top of the agenda after when the pandemic slows down and hopefully it will come back to the top of the agenda in the best positive way possible but there is a danger that it might come back in a negative way we don't know yet. As far as the global compact is concerned I think that there are a number of principles of the global compact that are very talkative about this crisis I've just given you an example access to health care for instance let's be honest one of the problems we have everywhere when it comes to migrants access to health care is that the migrants need to understand the advantages they also get to have access to health care it's not just a question of the countries being a little bit reluctant in accepting access from of migrants irrespective of their legal status to the health care it's also all the way around migrants being suspicious of getting in touch with the health care system of being tested of being identified because they are afraid that there will be consequences for their status if they attend so there is a problem of mutual trust that needs to be created when it comes to universal health care which is clearly stated in the global compact in terms of access to services there are two key points this year for the global compact one is the regional review the regional review of the global compact because it was adopted in December 2018 in Marrakesh and now we will take stock of all the different regions in the world have used the global compact in their migration policies and that will happen in the last quarter of this year in in person or virtually one never knows the second key element this year for the global compact will be the first by annual report of the secretary general the secretary general is supposed to report back to the general assembly in December on the assessment of the UN system in terms of the implementation of the global compact and that will give i visibility to the global compact last but not least how is the global compact an instrument to deal with the current the current crisis i think that what has happened clearly is that the the values and the principles of the global compact have been implemented by the countries in a very asymmetric way well i'm not counting those countries who did not subscribe to the global compact those 12 did not implement the global compact of course but those who have subscribed to the global compact have implemented it in a very asymmetric way but there is one very important point is that this the UN system has taken ownership of the global compact the UN migration network the multi-partner trust fund that was created by the global compact is already in action there is a first set of projects to be funded by the multi-partner trust fund the UN migration network has made a number of statements on returns on deportations on alternatives to the tension on protection to the children all in line with the principles of the global compact bringing together the entire UN system and at national level and regional level UN country teams have created replications of the global compact of the UN migration network on the basis of the global compact so there are systems of coordination of all agencies in the field around migration in well something like almost 100 and something countries in the world so from that point of view the global compact has been a leverage to coerence and consistency in working together in the United Nations. Over. Thanks Jun Liu. Another question Valerie Hughes asks about what about IOM's work in Syria could you say something about that? Well we our operations in Syria are basically cross-border operations we implement them departing from Gaziantep in Turkey and we provide shelter blankets non-food items food items to the Syrians that are displaced both in the northeast and in the northwest the situation in northwest is very difficult because there are almost one million people stranded there and in the middle of the conflict between the Turkish control zones and the government of the Damascus control zones the good news is that there has been a sort of informal or implicit ceasefire so the situation has become less traumatic due to a slowdown of the conflict but but the humanitarian situation is still extremely vulnerable extremely precarious and those people are there stranded blocks have no no hope no future and we depend quite a lot on the cross-border operations and since there is the resolution of the Security Council that allowed the UN system mainly IOM, WHO and WFP and UNICEF to operate in the northeast and in the northwest through the cross-border operation this resolution comes to an end in July and of course the support to those people will depend on the extension of the UN Security Council resolution otherwise we might be confronted with a very dramatic humanitarian crisis in those areas of Syria in the rest of Syria of course there are four and four to five million this internally displaced people who also depend quite heavily on the support of the international community and therefore there are actions to prevent the COVID-19 pandemic in those very fragile environments and those actions are mainly led by WHO in close coordination with UNICEF and WFP over thank you very much Antonio. Susan Murphy of Trinity College Dublin brings up the the issue of sort of isolationist attitudes that we see in the part of certain countries and the US will be one example with border closures and reduction of funding to international organizations you'll be aware of that I mean is there what is your attitude towards that and can you say something about the role of smaller states or less powerful states in trying to counter those tendencies what what can we do to try to preserve the values of multinationalism? Well I think that the the first line of response to the COVID-19 has been a closure of borders looking inwards a sort of strictly national approach but everybody realizes that if no one is safe we will not all be safe and that is a very powerful argument and that are good signs in that respect for instance the international scientists researchers medical doctors are cooperating in trying to find a vaccine as it has never happened in the past and that is very encouraging but there is a second issue closely linked to this one we need to have a multilateral international approach to access to vaccine it's not just a question of cooperating in discovering the vaccine it's also a question of making sure that everybody is entitled to the vaccine and this is not something new you can recall the debate in the late 90s about access to retrovirals in the UAA in the AIDS HIV disease we are going back to that point again how can we guarantee that the country is irrespective of their economic wealth it can provide their citizens with access to vaccine at an affordable price and we are talking about if we come to the vaccine and everybody hopes that there will be a vaccine that the vaccine will bring immunization at least for a certain period of time we are confronted with a paramount operation of vaccination worldwide which has never been seen in our history so this can only be done on the basis of international cooperation this cannot be done on a pure national basis otherwise we will create a healthy world and an an healthy world divided by the economic power that is totally unacceptable so I think that there are strong arguments for multilateralism and I think that small countries who have no even agenda should be at the forefront of making the case and the advocacy for equal treatment to all mankind we are all entitled to have access to the vaccine in the name of human dignity and those countries who are small in size can be very big if they use authoritative moral arguments. Thank you very much Antonio and in a way that that's replies to a question which Una Buckley of our Department of Justice has asked, I think you know Una and she raises the question about what Ireland what a country like Ireland can do to support better treatment for migrants and refugees. I can I come to a question from Daniel Korolev who picks up on the issue about recognition of migrant workers and he asks whether there is a risk I mean does that mean that if we go down that road which is a very important road is there a risk that somebody has to be seen to be useful to the host country before he gets support does it in some way I mean in some way dilute the basic need to protect lives and support human rights? Well it's a question that needs to be seen put into perspective are we talking about refugees or are we talking about migrants because those are different realities I mean people who are asylum seekers and refugees they are entitled to international protection okay that is not a question of usefulness for the country of destination it's a legal obligation coming from international law and what is at center stage is the threat to the life of the asylum seeker and refugee and the obligation for those countries we have subscribed to the international humanitarian law to give protection. When it comes to migrants we are not talking about the same situation we are talking about people who want to have a better life are in search for it they move because they want to find a better life for them and for their families and of course the personal happiness of those people are extremely important and relevant and at the basis of the motivation of the movement but they can only be happy and fully realize there's human beings if they find a job and if they can be integrated in the country of destination and so there is a trade-off there a trade-off between the benefits for the migrant themselves that improve their life that can be fully integrated and be happy and at the same time their contribution to the country of destination to the host country to the country that have received them and as i've tried to demonstrate to you the rhetorics of the ones who just want to accept the Einstein's of the world the genius of the world the highly skilled i've just given you a few examples where critical people are not particularly highly skilled and nevertheless they have been essential to guarantee that life would go on in spite of the lockdowns in our own cities in the developed in the developed world thank you Antonio um Sirica Pollock who's with the irish times has a couple of questions but i just uh put one of them to you she she coming back to the issue of the number of cases we've seen in Cox's Bazaar and Lesbos and so on the figures which you mentioned which we've seen the strict speaking seem a bit low but but many people presume that in reality they're much higher can you estimate in any way uh what you think the actual level might be in in refugee camp sessions and is there any chance of more comprehensive testing being carried out in camps well maybe you could say that the the figures are low everywhere yeah i mean this is such a tricky virus that uh with with people with non-symptoms nobody can give you a figure an accurate scientific figure bulletproof figure not even in the developed world uh there are different reasons that might explain why the figures are so low in some parts of the world for instance and the reporting being one of them definitely lack of capacity of the health system to identify people who might be infected in other cases there might be explanations linking temperature and humidity it's a a a non-none question about how the virus behaves in different environments weather environments another one is also the age the question of the age what we have seen in the developed world is that all the people are more prone to get infected than younger people and when you look to those camps the majority of the the population in the camps are relatively young people which might for their DNA and metabolism be more resistant to the virus or at least get infected without symptoms or with mild symptoms of course the capacity of for testing is a very relevant element in this exercise and let's be very very clear uh we have some access to tests but there is a jungle out there in the fight for testing okay it's not very easy to get to get the testing we are supporting quite a number of countries and we work very closely with the Center for Prevention of Diseases in Africa to help African countries to get access to testing but testing has become a very mobile market where if you do not buy in the minute five minutes later you won't get any more chance to buy it and if you do not pay upfront you do you are not delivered so uh there is also that explanation the difficulty of accessing to tests and making sure that the picture we have is more accurate so in a nutshell I can accept that most likely the figures are low due to under reporting or lack of testing but there might be also other explanations that at the current moment I cannot discard and I don't know what's going to be the evolution that that I cannot anticipate. And joining you we've time for one more question and uh and that is from Ethna McDermott who's a member of the Institute and Ethna asks about the gender dimension to the various set of migration challenges that you're facing as an organization both in relation to COVID-19 and more generally what what can you tell us about the gender perspective? As in many other crises women and girls are particularly targeted by the socioeconomic impact of the of the crisis mainly in countries of origin. Maybe this is not absolutely the case in countries of destination where if we look to the 2008 crisis young men young male were more targeted by the financial crisis than women and girls in the countries of destination but definitely from the perspective of large crowds or living in overcrowded livelihoods women are particularly valuable and we have already quite a number of reports that show a rise in violence against women gender-based violence and in vulnerabilities of girls one of the most disturbing thing is that with the closure of the schools some people have made assumptions I hope they will not prove to be right that 30 percent of the girls that stopped attending school because of the closure of schools will not go back to school when the schools reopen so I think that we need to be very much attentive to this kind of micro management of the social economic impacts of the crisis and if I had to pick one upfront I would say we need to make sure that all the girls that were attending school before the crisis will be able to go back to school when the schools reopen otherwise there will be an enormous human loss for them thank you David thank you Antonio that's a very powerful note on which to end this discussion thank you so much for having given so generously of your time I found it fascinating it was a real tour of the force across a very very challenging agenda and I have to say from all the comments and questions and many which unfortunately we couldn't reach everybody was hugely impressed by your presentation today and they all wanted to convey that to you so we're very very grateful in the interview thank you so much a lot to to take away and all I can do is thank you once again wish you all the best with IOMs ongoing work in relation to this crisis and and more generally so Antonio thank you very very much for your time and I thank all of those who took part today may I just make one final point before maybe letting Antonio have a couple of words the next meeting of the institute on development measures will be on the 3rd of June when the president of the ICRC Peter Maurer will speak to us Antonio would you like to to finish off David it's just just to thank you so much for the invitation the institute thank the support of Irish Aid of course we are all now used to this kind of remote contact but I hope next time I can be in person in Dublin because there is not yet a solution of sending me a beer by virtual me we work on this thank you thank you