 This is the Neo Books call for Monday, March 18th, 2024. Sorry, Klaus, go ahead. No, no, I was just saying it has been really rainy. Yeah, and it looks like spring is finally, finally arrived, which is fabulous. When last we met, we were talking about the agreement, the Neo Books agreement. And I'm pasting a link to it in our chat. We have a spreadsheet, which is the result of the form. Actually, it was just a spreadsheet. I didn't use a form at all. I think we were just entering our stuff in the spreadsheet. So Stuart, Klaus, and I added our thoughts here. Dave, you're not on the list, but you could easily be on the list if you want to take a swing at this. And Stuart is not going to be back in our calls for a little bit here, because he is in China. So it's very hard for him time-wise. But part of what we were looking for was what are we doing here together, and what are the promises, and so forth? So maybe the agreement really is based a lot on Stuart's work, and maybe we should postpone this conversation till he's back. But I'm happy to talk about it for a bit, because I think this is important for us going forward. All thoughts, welcome. And why don't I just wait a minute while we all reread and catch up with it again? And I can green-shear it into the record, basically. So whoever's watching us can see it. Yeah, I don't know. I should take a look at it. I have a little bit of an update or kind of an insight, I guess, from some of the GRC stuff that we were doing. Please. So GRC has kind of these calls that repeat, hosted by different people. And one of the calls has been regeneration and economics. And it's been going on for probably two years. And the group kind of spawned by Michael Lennon. There's a conversation going on around, could we kind of codifier? Could we create a book out of these calls? And we had a conversation, we've been having conversations Friday afternoons. We had one last Friday afternoons. And I was really kind of excited about the notion, kind of because I've been stewing in this group here, I think, about the nuggets being the ideas that have been particularly exciting that have come out of the calls. So kind of going back to the calls, not trying to organize all of the content. It was like kind of thinking about, well, this could be the Paul Samuelson's textbook for regenerative economics or something like that. But we're not capable of writing that kind of textbook. And that's not really what we want to be. But I think we probably could go and look at the calls and the conversations and see the ideas that sparked energy and collect a bunch of those nuggets and put them into chapters and have a pretty interesting book that I was thinking each one of the things that sparked energy has the potential to be an epiphany generator. So we've been looking for this notion of an epiphany generator for people to see regeneration as something kind of motivating. And so what we're looking for out of the calls kind of are the ideas or something that would excite people and us to do more, essentially. And you're thinking about it mostly by harvesting existing calls and finding these shiny nuggets in them. Right, exactly. And the indicator being kind of that people got excited by the nugget, right? You could tell from the call that there was an idea that caught on. Yeah, exactly. But there was energy in the call that we're trying to measure the energy in the call and grab the top side. In case the greater intelligence is listening, a feature that I was wishing Zoom would add, because they've added AI and a bunch of other stuff that I'm using now that I really like. I think the AI summaries are pretty awesome. There was a feature I turned on that I thought was going to give me back an index, basically chapter summaries that I could paste into YouTube for the videos. But that has not materialized. But the minute seconds offset with a title, with a subhead, for each of the major chunks of the chat, because the AI summary clearly understands the chunks of the chat. That's done. But another feature I would love to have is I'm stamping. Exactly. Another feature I would love to have is to make a note to myself, oh, this is a great moment right here. And then to have the AI basically find the edges of that moment and encapsulate that so that you could use the video or the transcript or any other part of it the way you just said. So that the finding and harvesting of that nugget was really, really simple because you would just be able to say, oh, this one over here. And it would already be findable because it would have a short summary title. And you could then refer to it and add it into other media. That would be great. That would be sweet. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I guess there's a couple of things that came. So one is the notion of the epiphany generator, something we've kicked around for a little while. And I do feel like we hear from people's stories that you may be able to solve. So you probably can go back and tell the story of when you got focused on soil. I'm imagining you know the moment kind of. And there was an epiphany, but I have the same kind of experience for regeneration. I can tell you the day when I got it. And if you look at the epiphany, then you realize that actually there was 10 years of preparation that led to the insights. But there was a spark. And so I was thinking that the book would be just kind of throwing sparks at people kind of. And the notion is really around the learning, right? It's like what we're trying to do is capture or motivate somebody to engage more deeply kind of using the resources we've already got. And then the other theme I think we talked about a little bit last week is that I think we should do multiple media at once if we can. And so the nuggets would actually be in a book chapter. They'd be in a podcast. They'd be in a newsletter kind of simultaneously, hopefully managed by different teams. So that they're kind of loosely correlated. People are kind of loosely following the thread. They can go back to the same materials. They can contribute into the same materials. But then they use them for their own media channels. Whatever works best for their media channel. Super interesting. Out of curiosity, what was the spark for you that got you to look into it? I was at a David Hodgson workshop, like the global leadership lab at Fort Mason. And he had invited Mark Barash, who's been doing regenerative agriculture work in Africa for a long time. And I just followed Mark. We didn't sit through any of the sessions. I just kind of followed Mark around and listened to stories about regenerative agriculture. And it was something around the cascading benefits and the positive some outcomes. They had come out of the EDF experience where we were trying to do energy efficiency for big corporations. And it's like, you could just energy efficiency the hell out of these corporations, and you still weren't going to do enough. And so the idea that you could do something better than zero sum was really important. The fact that you could do multiple good things simultaneously was really important. I just wasn't able to see the world a little bit different. Love that, thank you. Also, the time that you and Claudia and I went up to visit Jumping Frog Farm was magical for me. I've drawn on that and told stories from it a bunch. We went up to see it. North of Sebastopol, there was a regenerative farm surrounded by industrial farms. And one of the stories I retold was one day they had a huge rainstorm and things were flooding. And so the woman of the couple who run the farm got a call, Elizabeth, I think, got a call from a neighbor saying, hey, we're flooding here. Do you guys need help? And Elizabeth was sitting by her fireplace reading a book because their regenerative plot of land was just absorbing and drinking in all the water. It was happy. It was just, it was soggy, but it was happy where next door they were having problems. They were gonna have to harvest crops early and do whatever else. And she just marveled that, wow, like the work we've done pays off in moments like this. So I love that. Well, and I think that's, I mean, that's like, I feel like from looking at the GRC experience, I feel like people, you know, people come at things from their own lens. See, I think you always have to accept their lens, right? You can't convince them to do a new lens. So there are some big ones like permaculture. A bunch of people come into these to the GRC because they've experienced permaculture and they start to see the world differently, I think. And regenerative farms, I think if you go visit regenerative farms, they're epiphany generators, right? Because you just, they feel different. They smell different, you know? So it's kind of like, I think we can almost build a list of these things that really are impactful and try to shove them in people's faces basically. It's like, look at us, you know, or the idea of positive net positive housing, you know, for I think for a bunch of like architect types, the idea that, you know, they should have an energy positive house or a water positive house, right? That challenges what they think is, you know, possible. And it gets people excited. And I love that idea of epiphany generators. That's really good. It's like, if you can sprinkle things around that get people to light up and get their brains to suddenly jump to the other side, that's perfect. And often those things are tiny. Those things don't need to be big, you know, a thousand page books or, you know, major documentaries. Sometimes the insights are tiny. And if well-wrapped and well-tended, they can be really transformative, I think. I don't know. And widely distributed too, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I would argue that the smaller, the more transportable, right? Yeah. Well, because I've been arguing against the nugget notion until I put this, you know, it's like, oh, the nuggets are the epiphany. That made sense to me. They're not knowledge per se, you know, because knowledge is only required, always requires context. The epiphany though, just is the spark. And it was not jumping frogs farm, it was singing frogs farm. And I was just worried about why I couldn't find it in my brain. And it's Elizabeth and Paul Kaiser. There was a Netflix documentary movie about a farm this one. Biggest little farm. Biggest little farm. Yeah, which is good, but a little weird, like at some point in biggest little farms, they discover that ducks loves slugs and snails. And I'm like, you know, you just needed to go to other countries where they really know that and they have herds of ducks that they put onto the rice paddies to eat up all the pets. It's like, yeah, it was a little weird how they presented that, but it was a lovely documentary. I really enjoyed it. I was up in Napa this weekend and saw sheep in a vineyard for the first time. Awesome. And goats for clearing underbrushes big. They used to do that in Berkeley. They used to have goats on the hill sides that would move with a little electric fence. They would just shift them down the hillside to try to eat all the underbrush to reduce fire risk. The reason why they're using sheep and goats now is to avoid using glyphosate to eradicate the growth between the vineyards. Because nowadays a big thing about glyphosate-free wines there's actually glyphosate in wine, if you can believe it. Yeah, I can believe it gets in everything. Yeah. Hi, Stacy. We started out talking about the Neo Book Agreement and then wandered off into regenerative ag and the insights and into what Dave and some GRC folks have been doing about trying to create contagious nuggets of wisdom or epiphany generators in their language. Good, because the AI companion could not catch me up. It told me that an error occurred. It's too recent. I think the AI companion needs like a 10-minute lag or something to actually catch up with their most recent conversation. Hopefully that gap will close. But thanks for trying. That's great. But David, I have to give it to me though. I've been working on, I mean, I'm continuously trying to figure out how to deploy AI in ways that is useful to people, like you would do to your GRC crowd. And this explanation here that AI gave on how to build an interface, a user interface, may also be applicable for you. Because the way this thing works is that you build your chatbot basically feeding it the information that you have in your network and it just stores it. And then you put an interface in front of this where you make it as intuitive as possible. And you can ask questions and it extracts the information out of it at the same time while your users are asking questions the chatbot learns. But it's like teaching it at the same time that you're asking questions. And then the chatbot itself is protected from anyone messing with it because you control it or you have a small team controlling it. And so the information that goes into it has a screen. You can make sure that you stay online. So I asked Pete to give me a cost estimate what this would take to put on my website, either on my personal website or on the climate systems solutions website because we want to build this interface and add a lot of complexity to it so where you can ask more specific questions about corporate recommendations and things of that sort, technical questions. Well, one of the ways I've framed that class and I don't know if this is what you're saying but I think of that at least as another media channel. So newsletter, podcast, book, chat. Yeah, AI, kind of. So there's another team perhaps managing that. Yeah, it just really simplifies your record keeping. This is what companies are doing now. They're using these chatbots to feed very technical, very specific information. So like my son working for SEMSERA, they are developing this to the point where a mechanic can go to the chatbot and ask a very specific question about, can you give me a blueprint for this specific piece of equipment? How do I install this? Or how do I troubleshoot this? And so they even go so far now if you have the Apple, the new Apple classes, right? This thing can throw a diagram into your classes. So while you're working on this machine, you can see, you can watch on your monitor how this is supposed to work. So AI is just integrating into the regular workflow. And I think for us wanting to build a knowledge base, there is so much, there's so many pieces of information. For example, the US government has created an interface where you can put in the coordinates of a piece of land you're standing on or you're working with. And it gives you the precise, you put in the coordinates and it gives you the precise information about the type of soil you have, the local climate, local waterways. So it knows everything who owns it. It knows everything about this particular piece of land. So to use these databases and integrate them for easy access is just such a powerful way to go forward. So back around 1990, I started a research service for new science called Intelligent Document Management. And it was technically meant to be about electronic imaging, which was taking, scanning things and putting them on cold storage on optical disks mostly. And one of the presenting problems was the nuclear navy, the documentation for a nuclear submarine would fill a nuclear submarine. You can't print the documentation for a nuclear sub and put it on a clear sub. So they have to scan it and put it on disks. And so field repair, field service has been one of the big, big, big, big apps for augmented reality, heads up displays, whatever, that kind of thing for years. And the new Apple Vision Pro actually makes a leak in terms of the resolution, the technical capacity, the connectivity, all those kinds of things around the devices. But this has been a huge vertical for augmented reality since the early days. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there are apps that like I just put one up there. You can put that app, or integrate this app into your chatbot, you know, into your AI and have a free and incredibly rich database that you can use. Yeah, yeah, cool. So what piece do we wanna bite off in our conversation today? Where do we want to head around the NIA books thing? I was gonna head back into, Dave, you had mentioned nuggets meaning something different for you. I'm interested in that, but I don't know if everybody else is. I have a feeling that we should wait for Stuart to come back from China to talk about the agreement because we're kind of working on his agreement framework and it would be nice to have his opinions on that. Jose, I put the, let me put the link to the Google spreadsheet back in our chat. And Stacey, if you wanna go look at it as well, if you guys wanna enter your thoughts or corrections or amendations into the spreadsheet, make a column for yourself. I think, Jose, I think there's a column with your name on it. Dave, same thing if you wanna add your name and comment on it, you're welcome to. But we don't need to go there, I think until Stuart is back. But I'm interested in what y'all are curious about from the NIA books perspective and that we might dive into it together. And I'm gonna ask Klaus to explain the soil app thing if you know more about it cause I'm really curious about that, the link you just put in the chat. Cause I'm, I think you've heard me talk about, I wish that there were a tax on soil organic matter, meaning if your activities deplete soil organic matter, you pay a hefty tax, meaning industrial farming gets dinged. If your activities improve soil organic matter, you get some of that money, you get a huge subsidy. And that would be a nice way of tipping agriculture toward regenerative, if that was a big deal thing. You're a muted, Klaus. Yeah, this page explains it here. It's basically telling you what your soil is like. And I actually asked a farmer friend of mine who has been on my panels to play with it and report back how useful it is for him. But if you take a new piece of land, for example, you're looking at buying a piece of land, this will give you the data that you need to see the history of this plot and it's type of soil, most conducive for coring, what types of crops, that sort of thing. That is cool. What does PKS even stand for? It's funny that they assume in land PKS that you know what PKS means. Yeah, PKS, I think it's the coordinates. That's so weird that nowhere on the homepage of this thing does it explain PKS. Clearly this is only for people who are in it. The potential knowledge system. Potential? But you're right. Land potential knowledge system. So that's the whole acronym. Oh, okay. Sorry. I was taking potential knowledge system as its own thing, but that's wrong. They're estimating land potential. So you can't take potential knowledge system out of it. Thank you. They've been an example. This is just one example. I mean, there is so much stuff out there. See, and to bring this together into a knowledge system, that's what AI is really good at doing. And this project's been a little bit of an example of the open source stack stuff that I like to play with, because I kind of feel like they're probably, I'm not convinced that they're going to be very good at building the dynamic ecosystem that will lead to improvement of the system. This is all great. Go ahead. You have to actively search for it. You have to already know what you're looking for before you access it. Right. Well, and also you need, people have to be willing to contribute back somehow, right? There's this impact of us to the reciprocity problems. So, and which I think implies marketing and community building and a whole bunch of kind of human stuff. Unlike this example a lot, the land PKS thing is pretty interesting. So dates back to 2013 is when the project seems to have started. Thanks for that, Klaus. So which way should we aim our conversation? Klaus, do you want some help mapping how to get from where you are to book? Oh yeah, I mean, volume one has been sitting there for a while. It probably needs formatting, right? I haven't, I mean, I've gone through and straightened out text and so on, but I imagine it needs some help with formatting. It could use some better pictures in it. I'm not very good doing my own. Pete is fantastic in, but he writes instructions that are huge to get the pictures out of it. Yeah, so it would be, what are we gonna do? I mean, where's OGM going with this, right? I mean, I'm not that much interested in publishing per se, but participating in an OGM Neo Book Project is what we had in mind. And that kind of goes two different directions if I can oversimplify. One direction is publishing the book and getting a Kindle book available to people and print on demand if needed. But the other direction is taking the nuggets of information and making them more interactive, more conversational, making them easier for you to send out to people, but then also making them some place for conversation and improvement of the nuggets, which is kind of the idea partly is that the book is an attractor and maybe also an insight generator that brings people into the conversation. And that's part of what we're looking for. Now, the conversational aspects of Massive Wiki, which is the platform we're using are limited, the conversational aspects of Google Docs are kind of limited. I mean, everybody knows how to do comments on a Google Doc, right? That's kind of what we're limited to right now as long as the document still lives in a Google Doc. The reason to nuggetize the document and get it out into Markdown was to make it available on GitHub, which has its own feedback mechanisms that are a little bit geeky, but also to make it available on other platforms. So for example, Klaus, one thing you could do, I can think of several things that you might do. One of them is to look at your manuscripts multiple and figure out which of those would make really good sub-stack posts because we did create a Neo-Books sub-stack on purpose so that we might kind of cheat and be Tom Sawyer getting other people to paint the fence to get comments back on nuggets. And so if you wanted to look through your manuscript and think, oh, this piece, this chunk from here to here would make a good sub-stack post, do that, copy, paste it into sub-stack. And if you pick some pieces that would make good posts, let us know and I can point you back toward the Neo-Books sub-stack we created and you could just paste them in and go from there. That would work. Another thing might be to ask ChatGPT, by the way, one of the ways that Pete gets really good prompts, long prompts for specific images is he asks ChatGPT to describe photos that are sort of like what he wants in detail. And then he uses the ChatGPT description to feed into mid-journey. It's a small round trip using the different kinds of intelligence that seems to work really well because the image recognizers, not generators, but the image recognizers are actually really good about this is sort of the theme, that this is a dark and stormy night, this is a happy whatever, they sort of pick up and start to add a lot of emotional terms also, which is really cool. And so you might do that to generate, probably with Pete's cooperation, better images for your manuscript. And you might also, because some of these engines take larger corpuses, you might also submit an entire Google Doc to one of these engines and say, hey, could you make this flow better or whatever and see what happens? So I just put in a link to the newsletter stack that I have published on LinkedIn. Yep. And the reason why I picked LinkedIn is because this is a very professional, very targeted group of people I'm connected with there. Exactly. And so I've gotten some pretty good feedback on this. And these are basically nuggets from the book. So I excerpted these newsletters mostly from the book or I wrote a new nugget and inserted it into the book as a new chapter. So you're already doing a lot of this just on LinkedIn, which makes a lot of sense instead of SubSec. Yeah, it's easier to handle and I can still send out a mailer to my mailing list, which I haven't really done much of, but I have a mailing list that goes into the Sierra Club into the Regenerate America Network and American Sustainable Business Network and so on. They got all their mailing lists, which I probably shouldn't have, but I do. But yeah, so I've been able to get that out. So what I'm really, and so when you read what my chatbot wrote back to me, it involves, I mean, doing a UI and your user interface involves considering several key aspects to make sure it's accessible, intuitive and engaging for your clients. So the, and my clients, of course, are farmers and they're practitioners. So people are not deeply versed in using GitHub and IT products. Dave, I don't know what you take, but I would say GRC also. You have sort of moderate to medium level skill sets in engaging IT, so it's fair to say. There's probably a few folks that are, I mean, it kind of has a little bit of, again, David Hodgson's fingerprints on it. So there's probably some people that are pretty competent, but yeah, most, and you know, I mean, it's actually, it's broader than that. There's a bunch of people that can barely manage slides. I don't blame them. Yeah. So that's why putting it on a website or we talked about the platform, which is basically what that is, allows you to interact with people who are, let's say, IT challenged, you know, but they can still read the instruction and then have a way to ask questions or get their questions channeled. You know, you can channel them towards what they want to ask. So that's the benefit of a website. Love that. Klaus, it occurs to me, so the UI design question that you asked ChatGPD about and got a really nice answer to, that's a major project, right? That's a major UI design project. And I'm sitting here wondering what orgs are already working on, some piece of that, that you could join forces with? Is there somebody out there who's trying to communicate to farmers, for example, about regeneration and sustainability and already building apps or a platform or a chat bot or something that talks with them where you could join forces? Because building, sourcing, managing this whole thing yourself is, I think, a monster project that I'm not sure you want to necessarily do, but if you could find somebody and connect up what you've got with what they've got, that could work out really well. Yeah, everybody is working on some form of AI. I mean, everybody out there is working on some AI, but most everyone is very proprietary and what I haven't seen yet is this user interface approach where, I mean, the AI is used inside the company and it's like Sam Sara, the user interfaces, they are building a highly technical, highly specialized for their workforce and so on. So I haven't seen a generic knowledge system, which is what the NeoBooks that I've done so far really are. This is broad-based, big picture stuff for meta level, but then also going way down into the specificities on your soil and the carbon cycles and all of that. So I think there is an opening. I wish I knew somebody to partner with, but I haven't found anybody. Stacy, go ahead. So as an OGM project, as I had written back to Klaus when he sent us the volumes, I was just wondering if a call like how to train your chatbot would bring in different people for like a cross-section of people at different levels involved in different disciplines, just as the basic opening conversation and then you might find people that want to go further, but at the same time, we'd also be having discussions that we're looking to have and bringing in different disciplines so we get a whole systems approach, just a thought. So you're saying host conversations then invite more different parties in? I'm saying that at least one conversation that's built as highlighting the work that Klaus has done and the way he did it using, he already has it written up in that methodology part and seeing who comes in. I'm thinking somebody like Dave, wouldn't you want to come and see how he trained it so that you could use it for what you're doing? But I'm also thinking other people, maybe more technical people, would also come in. Again, it's just a thought. I mean, it's interesting in a lot of ways. When I read it for a lay person like me and I read just the methodology part, I was very interested. My mind was going in 100 different places in terms of applications and things like that. And I'm thinking people would come for different reasons, but that whoever, I'm thinking it would be a rich conversation and from there it might split off and you might see a lot of overlap in things that people are doing. The other thought that I have when I think about chatbots in general is wouldn't it be nice if a teacher was training the chatbot with the use of her student, with the help of her students so that teachers and learners are doing it together? Because again, it's about doing. So. I had an idea that was sort of similar to your first one, Stacey, which was, Klaus, he just showed us your LinkedIn newsletter. Could you ask those newsletter readers if they're aware of any open source efforts to do something like this and you could kind of speck it out? And then that could be a beginning of the call that Stacey just mentioned. So, you know, just post one of these things that isn't a description of something but rather a question to your readers who now have, they know what you're writing about because they've been following you for a while. You can scroll up and down through the newsletter. So, some of them might actually know what's going on. Well, I mean, I'm sort of in a week-rounding phase. You know, we have this group of farmers in the Palouse. There's 34 farmers. The smallest is 3,000 acres and then it goes up to 20,000 acres. And they have this shepherd's cranes company that they've created and it's an organic regenerative-based flower that they're selling shepherd's cranes. And they are very progressive in ways of wanting to improve the soil. In fact, on their website, they're talking about how degraded the Palouse has become. They're losing something like 14 tons of topsoil per acre per year with their industrial methods and so on. So, to engage with these farmers, I'm trying to pull together a value proposition. I have a meeting next week Tuesday. I just talked with Jordan this morning because I'm struggling to put together a value proposition that would make it worthwhile for them to work with Joel and I, my partner and I, and a larger infrastructure that may be a larger network like Leinsberg that may be interested in participating here. So, I'm looking at AI as a differentiator. I'm looking at this as a tool that you can bring to bear that gives you just a ginormous head start in framing strategy, in drawing on knowledge basis and so on. So, that's where I'm at right now. Because if we can pull this off and this is a big if, we could have a prototype project in the Palouse that would be holistically regenerating a community. Because most everybody is so siloed. They're focusing on getting organic flower or regenerating this field. But what is typically missing in the conversations is the need to also look at the socio-economic impact of the changes you're wanting to make. What does it do to the jobs? Does it create local businesses? Are you engaging the NGOs locally? I mean, for example, in Ben's family kitchen, they're serving 20,000 meals a month to homeless people and to impoverished people. Why can't this be a revenue-generating thing? The federal government spends 182 billion dollars on nutritional assistance programs. Can that money be repurposed so that you empower people to source local and to source a finished meal and then in the process fund these NGOs instead of going after donations, they can actually generate a cash flow and sustain themselves and then buy local. So I'm just spinning off a whole bunch of stuff that sort of sippings through my head lately. So to create a regeneration project that is holistic, that engages the entire community, ground up, that's what I would love to prototype there. And we have a shot. The Palouse has Washington State Extension, Idaho State Extension. These are very significant research institutes. It would be amazing if we can get in there and get people interested to participate. Am I hearing you right or wrong that this could be a field manual for regenerational interdependence? Well, it could be. I'm looking, yeah. It could be, I mean, it's a training manual for the AI, right? Because there are some things in there that I wouldn't necessarily discuss with a farming community like Spiral Dynamics, right? I mean, that you would end up most likely offending people doing that stuff in there. But the AI needs to know it and the AI needs to use it in order to structure conversations so they're context specific to the people you're communicating with. But there are other... And the things that I think need to be communicated by and large, I have already put into these newsletters. But the AI needs to know that there is 10,000 years of history related to agriculture and civilizations have come and gone because they screwed up their soils and they mistreated their environment. Anybody else with thoughts? It's Klaus. Kevin Jones was on a GRC call last week and there's a recording in this chat, but the financing mechanism he's using via DAFs might be interesting to what you're talking about. There's like that community engagement part as well as an investment for return parts. Yeah, definitely. I think, Kevin, if we can pull this off, if we can get these folks interested, then you can bring in partners that are more specialized. We are looking at ourselves as innovations brokers. It's a brokerage function. So because we can't do everything and the two of us, what are we going to do? But we are experienced in the industry. We have both been experienced leaders in large-scale operations. And so maybe we can bring together a strategic development, strategic guidance and explain resources that are required. So bring resources to bear more in that direction. But Kevin would definitely be a great partner in there, yes. Speaking of Dr. Jones and his work, for years he's been working on something called the Asheville Community Funding Kit out of a project he has called Neighborhood Economics and that's all connected. And I was just wandering around in my brain and I found this, the four elements of neighborhood funding, which is very specific, but a giving circle, a kids community savings bond, a lending club and a pool donor advice fund. I found it because I was looking up donor advice funds, which are over here. But this community funding kit feels like a similar project to what you're doing class. It's just that the audience is different and the focus is funding, not regenerative ag. This kind of structure or arrangement feels very simpatico to what you're trying to get done. And like there's a bunch of overlaps. And maybe in a conversation with Kevin, you might be able to pick up and reuse some of the component parts that they used. And I don't know what success they've had, but I know that he's done lots and lots. The way you've been working with the farmers in the Paloose, he's been working with local people in Asheville, which is where he lives. Yeah. And just to like put on a consultant's hat plus, it might be easier to go in and say, look, we'll help. Don't they need a mill? Isn't that one of the things you said they needed? It's like, don't give them the whole, we're going to strategize everything in the world approach. Give them the, we'll fund your mill. Make it really simple and answer the question directly. The rest of it grows out of the first engagement. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. And Kevin's idea was a very, kind of like immediately doable strategy. You can kind of pull a couple of pieces off the shelf and it may, I mean, it may not work, but it was like, it seemed really kind of implementable. So. Yeah. You said you had a link to Kevin's conversation too. It's in the GRC stuff. I'll find it. I'll put it in the chat. Thanks. I mean, I don't know, the quick version was, I know this is totally off topic, but, but the, he's got, you can, you can, he has a DAF that you can donate into for 250 bucks. So we could all donate into the DAF. And I think it's another entity can aggregate the donations up to like a $5,000 minimum and invest them. So it's, so you donate to your DAF. And then the company takes it and invests your donations into a mill. And you get a tax deduction on the input side. And then if the mill pays itself back, you get return on the investment on the, on the other, a little bit like Kiva, but it's got a community of components. You go into the community and say donated to the staff. We will build a mill, you know, and. Go ahead, Stacy. I believe that's the topic of the first call he's doing with his daughter BJ at the local school Wednesday from six to eight PM Eastern. Well, thank you. Good, good, good connection. And I think we have a link to that in somewhere in the OGM averse. He shared a link to that session that they're doing. Totally agree with you, Dave, to keep it, to, to, to keep it simple. We have this entry. And it's, it's the, there's the requirement of a mill on the one hand and then the other on the other side, you need a CPG manufacturer, consumer packaged goods manufacturer so that you have a market. And if you have those two, then you can figure out what else needs to be there. Aggregators, logistics and so on and so on. But it's, it's, that's, we have a CPG person. They just got $3 million of a federal grant now because the federal government is working hard is really pushing the connection to markets. They have allocated several hundred million dollars to marketing for, for farming for, for regenerative farm systems. Well, thank you. So Kevin's call was a GRC call. Yeah. So do you guys not, as a matter of habit, just post all your calls on YouTube? No, they're, I mean, no, we've been, they're kind of, how come no kind of Adam house rule. I mean, a little bit, just the overhead costs were too lazy, but a little bit of house rules. Okay. So to maintain privacy, I totally understand like, like for almost all the OGM calls, the understanding is I'm going to post them openly to YouTube and the work of posting them is not that great. I, I, I download them. I archive off a copy to my, you know, external archive hard drive so that I don't lose them forever. And then I upload each call to YouTube and I do one or two other things. I post them into our matter most channel so that we have links so that there's a place where you can go find all the links to all, to the calls, but it's not that, it's not that much work. And a great, great record for other people. Besides, if you just pointed us to your zoom repository, that means there's a whole bunch of zoom calls still on Zoom's servers. Now that's expensive. It's going to be getting more expensive pretty soon. Yeah, I got to figure something out. So, so actually that is much more clumsy and expensive than getting anybody to do the work of just downloading and uploading the call. You could, you could hire a high schooler to do it probably for nothing. Yeah, I should probably revisit this. There's also a theory behind it though, Jerry, which is the point is not to capture the knowledge. The point is the energy in the conversations. Yeah, but I find the arc and the long tail is. Well, there is a marginal call. Yeah. And so anyway, you know, it's like, there's a people really want stuff. It's kind of in the slack. They could find it, but I'm my, you know, I'd be interested to know actually you should, we could probably go back and look at the OGM calls. How are they visited? You know, what's the viewership look like. So they get some buuge. In fact, one of my dojo mates surprises me now and then on Thursdays by saying, I watched your call this morning. I really liked when so and so said X and Y and I'm like, well, damn, somebody's actually watching. It's really kind of cool. And he's, he speeds us up to one and a half or two X so he can like, you know, get through a bunch of, which is great. I think that's terrific. So there is a little light viewership, but the fact is you are recording these, but then not doing anything with the recording. If you were not recording as part of Chatham house and then like, whatever, I'd be like, great, but you've got this recording just sitting there. I feel like it is, it isn't the heavy lift to put it online to make it available for anybody to listen to later. And that I think there's this unspoken emergent potential benefit from doing that, from making it more available. Yeah. Yeah. I'm skeptical, but I'd say that we are right that we are recording them, but the notion has been recording them for the rest of their community, but yeah. Gotcha. Okay. I won't, I won't go on anymore. I'm just like, I, I, I try to nudge people toward. Well, and I've been, and I have been zoom is hitting me with that. You just about filled up your, your allocation thing and it's, which is like going to be a forcing function on what. So one of these, one of these calls fills up my zoom allocation because I've got the juniors zoom. Yeah. I've been paying the monthly one, but I've got the entry level zoom and it fills up after one gig or a couple of gigs worth of call, but it's just one or two calls max. So if you're not moving them off your zoom, yeah, they're going to be very happy to collect your money. Yeah. Cool. Other thoughts on this class, did that help at all? Are we, did we come up with anything that's, that's helpful to where you are. I mean, it's a, I mean, I still need to figure out where to go. With this book and where you want to go from OGM, you know, with new books and, and I would invest time and energy into it. If I knew where it's going. So a couple of things. One tactically, when people make comments on your LinkedIn newsletter posts, are you using, do any of those comments make their way back into the manuscript? Are you using those as feedback for what's written in the manuscript at all? You know, you'd be amazed. I haven't gotten one comment yet. It was other than complimentary. This is great. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I mean, virtually all of the comments are sort of supportive, but it's not like, Hey, you missed this or you need to include that thought. Which means that the manuscript may be in better shape than, than I think, than we think. Okay. Well, a couple of weeks ago for a NIO books call where just after Pete and I had talked where we said, Hey, NIO books is not a publisher, which means we can't do the lift of the editing and all that. So we need to find or crowdsource some of the editing. But Pete with Jordan has very successfully taken a Google Doc and put it into, I think they use Lulu, but I'm not positive. I think pretty sure it was Lulu, but that, that process is known. So, you know, if you wanted to say, Hey, let's, let's do what Jordan did and see what that ends up with, that could work. You might also, I don't know if it'll do this. You might also be able to use chat to PT or one of the other engines to clean up your manuscript in terms of whatever formatting you want to add or create. So it's consistent. And so it, you know, so it folds into the book format more elegantly. But I think that the process of pouring the book into the Lulu process and seeing what the ebook would look like, because I think they did it. I think when, when Pete and Jordan had a, they had a zoom call at the end of which Pete was like, let's hold off, let's hold off. And then Jordan just went and pushed the button afterward and made the book at which point they discovered some errors that needed to go, they needed to go back to the manuscript to fix, but that seems like a normal part of the troubleshooting for this whole process. So I'm like, can you just push that button and get, get really pretty far down that path and then see what happens. Yeah. Yeah, I can talk with Jordan and, and see if he, if he's willing to help with that. Yeah. Sounds great. And you could generate some cover art. I mean, if you post, if you were to use the OGM town square channel or the Neobooks channel on Mattermost and say, Hey, I'm trying to, I'm trying to fix six images. And I'll post for each image, I'll post the description of what kind of what I'm looking for. And then several people who are interested in images might actually generate some choices for you. And you could then swap those in. Yeah. That sounds like a good idea. But if you just pick, you know, nibble away at the different questions you have about how to perfect the manuscript and then just go through the manuscript and see what happens. Because if you're getting feedback that says thumbs up, that's great. That, that means like go for it. Yeah. So you can see the comments when you, when you click on the newsletter. When we hang up here, I'm going to go back and take a look. All right, go ahead Jose. So, I'm feeling the energy to, to move things in sort of two, two directions. One, how do we do the technical stuff of a Neobook by that? I don't mean publishing, but organizing nuggets and so on and so forth. And, and, and having some kind of repository mechanism for that. And, and of course, at some point, some interfaces to provide all of that. So that to me, meet, it feels like something new. That we don't currently have, at least from my perception, none of the tools that I've heard so far, sort of fill my little mental image of what that looks like. I think it's more than just the tools that we've spoken about. That's my sense. The other thing, which I'm probably a little bit more excited about now, is more the idea of the marketing of a Neobook. And not a Neobook as a book, as a single book, but a Neobook as a concept of Neobooks. And I start thinking that maybe we have enough to make a little noise about Neobooks to the OGM community, to our respective communities. And, and the broader communities, I should say. And actually start doing some events where we talk about what these things are, what they look like, who's already working on them, what are they coming, turning out to be and exciting people about something a little bit more clear than I think we have. That maybe the forcing function will be something like that. That if we have to go out publicly speak about these things, that we'll have a forcing function for some clarity about what the role of a Neobook is, what the expression of a Neobook is. And maybe start having a conversation with a broader group of people as to how we do this as a community and not as a small book or a small set of nuggets. That latter part, the sort of the forcing function community piece I think is something that I think would be very interesting to explore and would give me a sense of the direction where we could go towards making this thing. I feel like there's so much potential in this and it's just somehow not materializing itself. And yet I think forcing ourselves to materialize it kind of creates the reality that we all seek. Let me take a swing at answering and then anybody else who wants to jump in, please do as well. One of my favorite TEDx talks is by a guy who, the guy who founded Better Block. And I think his name is Ben Roberts or something like that. I can find it, Jason Roberts. And he's jumping up and down. And one of his tips is blackmail yourself. He says, I had no idea what I was going to do. He lives in South Dallas and a really ugly part of South Dallas. So he created a flyer that said show up on this date at this intersection. And he had no colleagues. He had no budget. He had nothing. He just had an idea. And that force, that was the forcing function that made him go do stuff. So he and a bunch of buddies found a nursery that donated some plotted trees that they put on the edge of the intersection. They painted a bicycle lane into the intersection themselves. They put a cafe table and served lattes. They put a sign up on the wall of the empty warehouse that called it the Oakville Oak Creek Arts District. They did a bunch of other things. They also printed out city ordinances. They were violating and put them on that brick wall, just in case any city officials came by and said, why aren't we doing more of this? That's all in his TEDx talk, which I'll paste in the chat. So I've been sort of trying to blackmail myself without much effect because I'm not a good manager of me. But I think making this public and doing this together would be a great thing and I would happily participate in that. Second thing is in terms of organizing and archiving, what we have so far, because Massive Wiki is our engine, at least my engine at this point so far, the way to organize a Neo book is really as a directory or as a vault in Obsidian. And really because a Neo book is a roll-up or a playlist of nuggets, then the nuggets just need to be named in the vault and they can be in flat namespace. They can just be one big namespace, it doesn't matter. And then I have a table of contents for the Neo book that I'm writing about Design from Trust. That table of contents is the organizing factor and points to nuggets basically by naming them, by including them. And then the concept here, the conceit is that we say, hey, create me a Neo book from this table of contents and it then goes out and fetches and includes properly formatting and all that kind of stuff which gets a little bit complicated, the Neo book draft text. The other piece that's missing that's on my wish list in conversations with Jordan and Pete about making Massive Wiki better, the other piece that's missing there and is a non-trivial piece of code to write is some kind of a dashboard that tells you how far along you are in writing your Neo book. I was a Scrivener user for a while until I realized that you can't take a chapter out of one Scrivener manuscript and paste it into another one. That is an impossible thing to do. And I was like, God, this is stupid software. So I stopped. I backed out of Scrivener and I tried copying and pasting all my Scrivener stuff back into obsidian marked down nuggets because, again, you can just draw a circle around any subset of nuggets you want, call that a book, sequence it by writing the table of contents and you're off to the races. But we don't have the extra code that makes it look pretty or understandable. The piece that we're missing there that I think you would really need, Jose, is better use of metadata because I think your model for the building blocks and the foundational elements of the logic of the structure of the book that you're looking for would exist in metadata mostly. And there is a thing called YAML, which is a way of adding metadata into Markdown documents in a way that's kind of invisible, but sort of visible. It's clumsy. It's not beautiful, but it exists and it's well known and obsidian obeys YAML. There's some obsidian plugins that do that. So that's possible. But I think to get to the level of structure you want, we would need some funding or some ability to add back in some YAML capacities. And then you could go ahead and tag up everything you wanted in a manuscript that you were writing. So that's on the wish list. That's not anything we have working. And for me, all of that is much too, not for me personally. I get that I would be able to do all of that. Yeah. I just don't think that that's the way forward. That's much too technical for the average person who might want to write something. Because of obsidian and GitHub or because of something else? All of the above. Yeah. Obsidian, GitHub, YAML. I mean, it's basically, like I said, what I have in my head is it's closer to what Klaus talks about. Let's build an interface that makes this explicit. Here's a bunch of fields. Here's what you put in the fields. Here's the metadata associated with this block. That's what the dashboard would do. It would basically give you an interface that would let you do that in a user-friendly way without having to know all the YAML and do whatever else. That's why. And obsidian is friendly here, partly because it looks like a word processor. And it's a nice, it's an elegant word processor. And it has this big ecosystem and community of plugins and extensions, which is where you can, the space where you can build out the interface. It could be done clearly somewhere else. But for example, I don't know how to add metadata to a Google lock in any functional way. I don't know how to do that because everybody knows how to write a Google doc and how to add comments to Google doc. I love that about Google docs. Love it. But I don't know how to program all this stuff into or onto Google docs. So obsidian is, for me, the next best alternative, despite its crankiness. But if we managed to build out the parts, they would just be a dashboard. You would launch your dashboard. It would know about, I need to crank up obsidian to this document because Kosei wants to edit this nugget. Fabulous. Done. But it would then say, oh, okay, this nugget is 80% complete. Check. Here are the structural elements that Kosei wants to add to the nugget. Check. And you wouldn't need to know that they're being hidden in YAML or something else like that. But that's ahead of where we are by a ways. Right, unfortunately. And then I wanted to address a little bit of your marketing thing, too. We've said a couple of times in this call that we need some explanation of what NeoBooks are. And I've been working on that as like an introduction to NeoBooks. And I agree that it needs to be better and livelier. And I really want to have that, but it's not done yet. But that would be a place to start with, hey, here's an explanation of what this NeoBooks thing is. Let's start there. And now let's go do something more with it. Sorry, Klaus, go ahead. Yeah. See, I'm standing in here. This is my most successful newsletter, which I, and if you head over a thousand clicks and that's quite a few people commented. If you go down to the comment section, you see how interactive that was. So to have a newsletter like this really may be the kind of nugget. I mean, it's a nugget, right? Because it comes right out of my NeoBook volume one where BioRegion was one of the first chapters I wrote. And that has really circulated. And now, not because of me, but right now BioRegion is the big conversation, right? And then what really, what the chatbot pointed out when asking the question of building a user in their face, it's a simplicity and clarity, right? And for, for us, what means simplicity and clarity is not the same as for most people, you know, who don't know anything about programming or not any of the tools that we're using. Now, clean layout prioritizes ease of reading and writing messages. And then it says aligns with beige and purple. That means it's the entire spiral, right? It goes bottom beige to top purple. Basic needs of community, design with inclusivity in mind, ensuring that people of all abilities can interact with the chatbot. So we, for OGM, there's a real risk now that we build something geeky that doesn't, that doesn't circulate. It just doesn't resonate. And so it's an easy user interface. You can put pictures in there. I mean, it just will simplify looking at your audience. Do these obsidian interfaces, the dashboards that you were referring to, they already exist. Somebody's already built some of these. There are lots of obsidian widgets and extensions. I don't know that there's a dashboard of the kind I'm describing yet, but there's a whole, there's a pretty large and thriving ecosystem of geeks and coders who love building stuff into obsidian. There's also a thriving ecosystem of YouTubers who explain what they did in obsidian to everybody. There's some sub-stacks that I sort of follow. There's one called TFT Hacker. There's another one by my friend Wes Boyd, not Wes Boyd, Stoboyd, who are talking about their exploits in obsidian and how they coded this and whatever. I haven't done a search through the community of obsidian plugins to see if anything like this is present though. Go ahead, Stacy. Just real quickly, to my earlier point, I think that being able to contribute artwork could be a draw for those nerdy types you're talking about. So they come just in community, but then they're motivated to do the techy stuff because they get to put their artwork in, something that they don't usually get to do. That's something usually they do in their free time, their spare time. Totally agree. Jose, where do all those lengthy answers leave you in terms of what you were thinking about? Well, I don't know where. Nothing moved in the sense that anything's changed. We're still saying these are good things, but that means we need to create them. And I'm wondering if we go with the marketing in order to accelerate, as a forcing function, to accelerate the first part. Because if we can paint a picture of work that we're doing and how it's being done differently in the... I think the big picture of Neobooks, not the little picture of Neobooks, not the nuggets and the thises and the thatses, but the big picture of open, transparent, transmissible, playable, all of these kinds of big picture ideas, I think that's really the thing we want to benefit from. It's not the little nugget stuff. The little nugget stuff is just how you can make it happen. I think that big picture and maybe hacking is the work we're already doing into a hacked version of a Neobook. There's also just wireframe mockups. I mean, demos are just demos sometimes. They don't have to have working code in order to light people up on what's going on. And that's what I'm wondering. I mean, not even wireframe it, but actually take these books, identify the nuggets, produce a nugget in multiple formats. Here it is in this format. Here it is in that format. Here's how somebody can engage with it. Here's somebody and actually build a real-world mockup of a Neobook in action or Neobooks in action. And then go do a little bit of roadshow. Let's go talk to folks and tell them about what this thing is. And maybe that then causes us to actually have a better picture of what people see, what we see, and what we can build. I like that. Anyone else thoughts? Does that make sense to you guys, David Klaus? Stacy? I think we're saying the same thing. Jose, we have been talking about let's do a platform, right? And find ways to set up different books, maybe by topic, whichever way, topic or title or whatever, and then let people engage and interact with these books and that each interaction can be slightly different. So I don't know what, Jerry, what is holding us back there? Why are we not moving on this? So for getting out and sort of beating the drum and getting some attention on this, we need a couple of minimal demos for how this thing works and what it is like, the thing that Jose just described. And I think I'm on the critical path for that. I think I need to create something that just shows what it is we're talking about. In whatever way, it could just be hand waving and shadow puppets on the wall. But sometimes shadow puppets on the wall does the job, right? So I'm happy to take a swing at that. But I think that's the thing we're missing at this point. We're certainly missing a bunch of code, but nobody will know what code is necessary or they might want to help us write if they don't know what the singing and dancing looks like. We need to illustrate the singing and dancing part. So I agree a lot with that. Thank you. And getting the word out about that. So one thing that occurs to me is this Thursday is the OGM call is scheduled for check-in, but we don't have a topic for the following Thursday. I could use facilitators prerogative and say, hey, we're going to give you a NeoBooks update in two Thursdays. And that would force me to come up with the demo and do whatever else to go do that. And I could do that. I would say we could do that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, we could build one or a small set of them or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, in my case as I'm definitely going to continue the conversations with the folks I've been talking to and see if that develops into anything that we're going to create. I guess I'm still a little... So what, Chair, when you describe what's the most important part of the NeoBooks concept? What's the magic? It's basically that the nuggets are alive in community, that the ideas are being improved the way a good Wiki page is improved over time. That's the heart of the concept. I don't want to make it any more complicated than that, but that some piece of an idea lives in some place where people engage with it and make it better over time and link it to other things and then use it in their publications and presentations and their whatever and their storytelling, but it's just that the nuggets are alive. Yeah, and I actually think that... Sorry, I think the book concept might be kind of counter to that, right? Because the book and still lock something down. And that's a point we make actually. It's like, thank you for buying this book. It is a snapshot of a much more interesting community that is alive right now around the content that is in this book. So that's a point that the introduction I've written for the first Neo book that I'm writing says very explicitly. And we've had a few conversations here about why books, why books at all? And the reason for books is that they're very well known cultural artifacts that act to attract people to ideas, which is great. That's perfect. We want that. And so for me, the way I've been thinking about it is we shouldn't print a Neo book unless we actually explicitly have nuggets as an offline way of engaging with them. So here's this... Offline or online? Sorry, off book. Off book. Yes, perfect. That's what you mean. Off book way of doing it. Totally agree. Totally agree. And that that thing is open and people can... There's a way for them to take it. There's a way for them to engage with it. There's a way for them to contribute to it in multiple ways. To me, it's about saying a book's BS because it's all locked down in a bunch of pages that are copyrighted. And we want to use the book because you know what a book is, but every single one of these pages, you can go ahead and tear out and run with. The other thing that I really love is... That one looks a little too evil for me. Doesn't it? It does do the slightly evil thing. But I like it. So we'll go with fireworks. The one thing that I really love that I think is a real potential for this is that the book itself could in itself be published as a new book and said, don't keep this book. You cannot keep this book. Here's the list of people who you've given it to and that they've given it to and that they're going to keep giving it to and what contributions they want to make or not make or have made or whatever. Some mechanism within the physical book itself that absolutely says, this isn't about you having bought a book and putting it on a shelf. These ideas are too important to us for them to be locked between two bindings and stuck between two books. A few, I don't know, four, five, six calls ago we had kind of an awkward call where I was like, let's talk about how people interact with nuggets and I got a little geeky on us and it just didn't work at all and I reported back on the following call, gosh, I'm sorry that I took you down the journey last time. That was my attempt to get us to think through how anybody can interact with nuggets and that's really important and I think Pete and I decided we need to sort that out on the side by ourselves because it's a little too geeky a subject but that was really my attempt to do that so that by the time we publish an e-book which is a snapshot frozen in time Han Solo Locked in Carbonite that's my favorite analogy for this you really want to talk to Han you don't want Han Solo frozen in carbonite and so we need to figure that out we need to make that work at least in some very light way as you just said simultaneously with the publication of a Nia book because just a Nia book that's yet another book that doesn't let you do that is not interesting nor does it give us a way to see what a Nia book can be and all we're doing is sort of doing another book and that kind of defeats the purpose in fact I think it kind of breaks the idea of if you say here's a regular published book and it's a Nia book and it doesn't have any of those features then I think we've sort of defined a Nia book in the wrong way which means anybody who runs across that term goes oh it's just another book these guys are nuts it only tackles a third of the value it misses two thirds of the actual value because if it's a book but then you see another book that shares chapters that's interesting but it's minor it's not big compared to the big idea I need to run I'm sorry we're at the end of our time anybody with any wrapping thoughts? Stacy you have a wrapping thought go for it it's not wrapping it's unwrapping maybe I'm missing the point but what I hear being asked for couldn't we do that in practice with what Klaus already created I mean there are parts in there that are about methodology there are parts in there that mention spiral dynamics maybe I'm not understanding what you guys are trying to do but if I were with 12 people and I said alright everybody pick one part just as an exercise like a schoolroom exercise is that not what you're talking about? So because Klaus's manuscript is currently see if I was right because Klaus's manuscript is currently in Google Docs the only actual way to interact with it is if he gives somebody permission to comment on his Google Doc you wouldn't want to give anybody edit permission I guess what I'm thinking about not the written part of it I'm thinking about the just the speaking part of it so I wouldn't be able to do the technical part I wouldn't know how to write it but I'd be able to as one individual say this is the part that I would take and then know who would want to gather around that part somebody else might say this is the part of it that interests me they would gather around that part of it just as a pre just like that's the prerequisite then I know what the different things are you can decide how to do the next step as a team because somebody on a team will have technical knowledge one hopes yes so there's only two ways I can envision right this second how that would work and they both require a place to converge around the topic the nugget one of them is in text the other one is if we had this call recording and we took a segment of the recording a piece of a short snippet of video and then talked around that short snippet of video that's the other way that's the way I recommend that's what I've always wanted to say and don't have the words for that's the piece that I think is really important for community building and relationships and learning and a whole bunch of other stuff so would you love to see a video based conversation among a bunch of different people interested in a topic and basically they're each sharing video snippets in yes I would and then I could I mean honestly that's how I found my way into different calls and environments that I'm in I was able to watch it I was able to see who I was drawn to I was able to go there yeah I think that's really important and empowers a lot of people so I'm with you part of the problem I see is that the videos that we mostly talk about are long videos of podcasts or whatever and they don't nugget ties easily at all online it's very hard to talk around a short piece unless the author of said podcast created a bunch of YouTube shorts or Instagram reels or whatever in which case then the nuggets are tiny enough because YouTube short has to be under 60 seconds for example or tiktok or whatever and then you can kind of talk around that but then those little pieces aren't connected back to the larger piece they came from easily either so the problem with doing this as a video conversation is that sort of woven video conversations aren't easily implemented online it's not impossible but it's not pretty with what we've got on the table right now it doesn't flow very well I hear you and I wish I had that and earlier when I said wouldn't it be great if Zoom gave us the ability to create little chapters and then clippings because there is a clipping flavor it doesn't work well so none of those things are working to make the nugget aggregation thing happy for participants which is a great goal okay just wanted to throw it out there and understand it properly David Klaus does this make sense to you do you have any different opinions on that honestly I didn't quite follow so no I don't have an opinion alright we can go back to it next week we should wrap the call soon Dave any thoughts I was curious on the same spirit is there no way to reverse engineer Klaus books back into obsidian or at least do the first section or something to test Peter and I tested that we basically took Klaus's manuscript and started trying to break it up into nuggets in obsidian and there were a bunch of hidden hidden commands in Google Doc that show up when you do the first export so we didn't have time to go back and troubleshoot how to actually sort of clean it up but the concept was to just somehow automagically break the book up into nuggets that would then live as markdown files yes my suspicion is that you're trying to force a structure onto something that's not the way people live it's not a living systems model you're trying to create a reductionist model out of nuggets I don't think so at all but I have to prove it to you yeah exactly that was my original opposition to nuggets like I said dates back to the World Bank's Knowledge Management Platform which was all nugget based there was just golden nuggets but they were going to be the knowledge bank and so they would have bank knowledge nuggets and the nuggets just don't work without a whole bunch of context and so I think they're going to look like Klaus's newsletter and that people aren't going to be able to contribute meaningfully into a nugget it's just really hard so wikis work pretty well when you have wikis don't work hardly any wikis at all work this has been like our wikipedia works I guess well it works fine very very few people contribute to wikipedia and it's got a huge overhead to it I mean it works but this is what we've gone back to I really think we should go back and revisit some of our knowledge from 20 years ago because the things we thought were 20 years ago they haven't been replicated a lot and wikipedia is one you just don't see a bunch of wikipedia lying around and I think it's really hard to get a wiki to work like wikipedia did I don't know what the question should be why did wikipedia work not how you do it again and Pete has blood in that race because he was a co-founder of social techs which was a company selling wikis to corporations that eventually didn't make it yeah I just so I just think that yeah alright a good question for us to address going forward thank you all thank you bye for now Jared yes can you stop recording yes except