 diving deeper into Huho Nua here on ThinkTech, energy 808, the cutting edge with Paula Dobin, Dobin, correct me if I'm wrong, Dobin, is it? Dobin. Dobin, of Civil Beat. We love Civil Beat, and after the story that she wrote a few days ago, many stories that she wrote about Huho Nua, we love Paula too for her investigative reporting. So Marko, you're our co-host here in this matter. It would be appropriate, Marko, if you introduced Paula, Marko Manglostorf will now introduce Paula Dobin. Well, so by being from a big Buddha also known as Luang Prabanglao, People's Democratic Republic. So thanks so much for having me on again, Jay, from afar. And thank you especially, Paula, for agreeing to be on the show with us. You have done, in my view, just a superlative job over the past year with multiple pieces covering the Huho Nua saga, which has been going on for a long, long time. And I'm just very appreciative of you and very appreciative of Civil Beat and doing the work that you're doing, and especially the two recent pieces. The last, the most recent article being the one you wrote on the issues, challenges, problems that Huho Nua has had with various permits there at the site, and then the one prior to that being the in-depth piece you did on Kevin Johnson, Jennifer Johnson, and some of the individuals involved, very closely involved with Huho Nua. So again, kudos to your great reporting, Paula. Thanks so much again for being on with us, and Jay, back to you. OK. Hey, Paula, thank you for coming around. It was a really nice article. It was an example of investigative reporting in the state scene. Very important that we have that reporting. It's important to the state for many reasons, and so we appreciate what you've done, what you wrote, and of course, the work you did in the reporting itself. This is an important topic. I'm sure you will agree. And the question is, first, my first question to you is, how important is it in the larger scene of energy in Hawaii? Energy is important. This article is important. How important is it? What's happening with Huho Nua? Well, Huho Nua is a closely watched energy project that's been struggling to get off the ground for many years, as you know. It hits some serious setbacks this year when the PUC rejected its application for an amended power purchase agreement to sell energy to Hawaiian electric. And they have appealed that decision to the Supreme Court of Hawaii. As it stands right now, you know, briefs have been submitted. There'll be oral arguments after the beginning of the year, most likely. So, you know, it continues to be litigated. It's just a very seemingly contentious project that's been going on and on, you know, for many years at this point. But I think what's significant is just how high energy costs are on this island. And, you know, there isn't a big effort underway to move away from fossil fuels. So, you know, the supporters of the project say that, like, this plant, if it ever goes into operation, will help, you know, ease Hawaii's transition away from fossil fuels. But there's, you know, a significant amount of opponents that say there's just too many problems with the plant, you know, that it's just not viable. So it's a closely watched story. Whenever I write one of these stories, we get a lot of reader feedback. So clearly the public is tracking this pretty closely. And, you know, I've been asked to do that for civil beats. So I was really happy to, you know, be able to cover this. And thank you very much for having me on the show. And, you know, bringing this to the forefront. Kind of feedback do you get on these stories? I'm wondering, you know, in general, what the public says to you about these stories when they give you feedback? I mean, most of the comments tend to be critical of Huanua. I mean, there are some people that write in and, you know, wonder why this project has been so embattled. But, you know, it seems like most of the comments we get are just kind of questioning, like, you know, why is this continuing to get, you know, pushed forward by the backers of Huanua? So there's just there's so many different questions about the project, you know, whether it's the greenhouse gas emissions or, you know, the potential discharges into the ocean or, you know, just a lot of environmental stuff. And then, of course, like the cost of the energy itself, you know, the PUC found that if the permit were granted, you know, it would actually raise people's electric bills by almost $11 per month. So there's there's a lot of, you know, skepticism that this is really in the best interest of the public. So it's just it's just a multifaceted story. And we get a lot of feedback whenever one of these stories appears on our website. Oh, sure. So what was remarkable about the story when I started reading, I said, my God, you know, this is an extraordinary thing that Paula is reporting about a visit by Kevin Johnson, who is an erstwhile lobbyist for Huanua, who visits Jennifer Potter, one of the three PUC commissioners. That was, gee, you know, we always like steer clear of talking to commissioners about cases they might be involved in. And they, in turn, steer clear about talking to anybody about those cases. But here you reported on a fellow who walked in on her and talked to her about it and try to, you know, convince her about the correctness, the value of this project. That was extraordinary. How did you do the reporting on that? It's like, you know, when I read that part of the story, it was fell off my chair. Well, you know, I was I was assigned to do the story and I started looking through the court record. You know, there is a lawsuit that was settled last year that I think it was the summer of 2021. It was a lawsuit between the main investor in the project, Jennifer Johnson, and her original partner, Harold Rob Robinson. And she had fired him and he had, you know, filed this long, wrongful termination lawsuit. He was seeking to get damages. And so, you know, when you read through that, you know, Voluminum's case record, you know, we just came across like the fact that this guy, Kevin Johnson, was involved with the Huanua Project. And honestly, I didn't know who Kevin Johnson was. My editor on the project did. He's from California. He lived in Sacramento. So, you know, he knew that he knew who Kevin Johnson was, you know, was former NBA All-Star and two-time mayor of Sacramento. And it really caught his eye. It's like he was like, why is Kevin Johnson, you know, in Hawaii trying to plug this Huanua project? So he just asked me to look into it. And so, you know, I just started doing some research about who Kevin Johnson is and then trying to, you know, talk to various people about, hey, have you had contact with Kevin Johnson or is that name ring a bell? And, you know, just through the reporting, you know, I learned that he had actually approached the PUC, namely Jennifer Potter. And, you know, I just reached out to her. I said, hey, you know, would you be willing to talk to me about this alleged visit that you had from Kevin Johnson? And so she did, she talked to me. This was, it was like the final week, I think, of her tenure on the PUC. But yeah, she just kind of described how, you know, she had just started at the commission and she was like a month into the job. And all of a sudden, like her, the admin person, you know, called her up and said, hey, there's a guy named Kevin Johnson here. Do you want to let him, should I let him in? She was like, yeah, sure, whatever. You know, she didn't know who he was either. And then, you know, he walked in and sat down and kind of described who he was. And she was like, oh, OK, wow, this is, this is like this, you know, like high level guy who's, you know, here to talk to me. She was initially, you know, kind of like wowed by the whole thing. And wasn't, you know, thinking like, wow, this maybe I shouldn't be talking to this guy because she was really new. You know, she didn't know all the rules about ex parte communications. And but after the conversation was over, she did, you know, reported to the chief council of the PUC who said, like, no, you can't be talking to this guy. You know, even at the time the docket was officially closed, but, you know, it was it was a pending matter before the Supreme Court. So it was, you know, very likely it was going to come back to the PUC. And and so, you know, it was just kind of an ethical breach. Like you really you should not be talking to, you know, parties to litigation in order to, you know, one of these these PUC cases if that matter is likely to come back to you. So anyway, I mean, long story short, he did that. And then he subsequently, you know, emailed and voicemailed her and, you know, just was trying to get her to, you know, get her support for the project because her vote was really crucial. You know, the PUC is only a three member body and it was, you know, he might have known at that point that the chair, Jake Griffin, was not really a big fan of Huonua. And so, you know, in order to get two of the three commissioners to vote in favor, he really needed her. So she was key to his lobbying efforts. And that was that was followed by a letter from the attorney general of the state to Kevin Johnson. You reported on that too. And you called the letter and I quote, polite. What what why do we stress the word polite here? Well, if you read it, you know, it was kind of polite. It was like, hey, you know, probably it would not look really good if the public knew that Kevin Johnson was, you know, meeting with a commissioner of the PUC that may be, you know, voting on this on this project. So, you know, sorry if she doesn't return his phone calls anymore. I mean, I'm sort of paraphrasing here, but, you know, it wasn't like a formal you shall not do this, but it was just kind of worded in like, hey, you know, like back off kind of thing. Yeah, I understand that customarily a letter like that, you know, raising an ethical issue like that would have gone to all the parties in the case. And there were plenty of parties on this docket. You know, whether it did go to all the parties in the case or was it just private between the attorney general and Kevin Johnson? Well, it went to the lawyers for who knew it didn't go to Kevin Johnson himself. But as far as I know, it just went to those attorneys. It wasn't as far as I know, technically considered an ex parte communication because the docket was officially closed at that period of time. If he had done if he had gone to her and knocked on the door and said, hey, I want to talk to you about who knew and and if it had been an active, you know, docket, then clearly that would have been, you know, no question an ex parte communication and they would have had to have notified all the parties, you know, it would be part of the public record. But I, you know, my understanding is because the docket was closed, they didn't have to do that. Well, that may be a difference without a distinction in the sense that everybody knew that if the Supreme Court remanded it, it would come right back to the three commissioners as it had before. Yeah. The other the other remarkable thing that is that you you had you you're reporting included a I guess it was a telephone call with Jennifer Johnson, the CEO of Franklin Templeton, which is worth one point five trillion dollars. And she's a very wealthy woman and she's the one behind the project. How did you achieve that? That's that's hard for any reporter, isn't it, getting to somebody like that? I mean, it's kind of the luck of the draw, you know, sometimes people are up for it and sometimes they're not. I had I had initially asked, you know, the PR firm representing who knew that I wanted to interview her. And and, you know, it didn't seem likely that that was going to happen. You know, they didn't really encourage it. But then when I was looking through the court file for that lawsuit in California, I came across her personal email. It was in one of the the filings. So I was like, well, you know, what the heck? I'll you know, I'll just reach out to her on her Gmail account and say, hey, you know, I'm a reporter for Civil Bead. You know, I've been covering who knew I like will be covering it, you know, going forward. And, you know, I forget exactly what I said. But I mean, I was trying to impress upon her that, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of public interest in this. And from what I could tell, just by looking at old news articles, there really wasn't much, you know, mention of her. Like, I didn't see a lot of articles with her on the ground in Hilo or anything like that. You know, so I said, you know, you kind of are like this mystery person, at least that's what I felt. And, you know, given how this is a project with high a high level of public interest, would you, you know, care to say anything to me? Because I'm writing about, you know, Kevin Johnson. I'm just trying to let people know like what he was doing. And and soon thereafter, I got, you know, a call from the PR firm saying that she was actually interested in doing it. And we set it up for a few couple of weeks from then, I think. And, you know, I appreciate the fact that she made herself available. It was it was I think it was important to the story. And it was it was just good to hear her thoughts on the project. Yeah. And did you discuss with her, you know, why Kevin Johnson? I mean, after all, basketball player, popular fellow used his popularity to get to be mayor of Sacramento. To my knowledge, to my understanding, reading a story that he had no background in energy, for example, or for that matter, an energy in Hawaii. But she she had selected him. And I guess she thought pretty highly of him. What was that about? Yeah, I mean, they're personal friends. She told me that, you know, they had met at a San Francisco Giants game. Her dad is like the majority shareholder of the Giants from what I recall. And, you know, the Franklin Templeton has a campus up in Sacramento. And, you know, they they just became friends. He talked to some of her employees a couple of times. He went to some of her one of her kids basketball practices. And and I think, you know, she thinks really highly of his capabilities. And, you know, he he apparently offered to help her out. You know, she described the difficulties that she was having with, you know, getting who knew a permitted and into operation. And so he offered to, you know, use his skills as a charismatic guy and, you know, somebody who can put together deals because, you know, he had, I guess, prevented the Sacramento Kings from being moved to Seattle. Like he got a stadium built or something. I don't know all the details of it. But, you know, he had some experience as mayor of Sacramento, putting together deals that involved, you know, lots of different parties, lots of different money and things like that. And so, you know, he came on the scene and I think it was January of 2017 to replace this other guy that she fired to be like kind of the project manager. Like Kevin was tasked with like, you know, building bridges with any influential person that could try to get this project permitted. And so that's what he's been doing, you know, since January of 2017. And presumably still today doing, huh? Yeah, as far as, I mean, she said that she's very grateful for his work and his wife. His wife is also involved, Michelle Rhee. She's a consultant who works on exploring like tax credits and, you know, how tax credits could attract outside investors to the project. She's an interesting person who never has her own right. She's like a former DC Chancellor of the school system there and an education reform advocate, a little bit controversial in her own right. Like Kevin is. And so, Kevin, he's been alleged to, you know, have had inappropriate sexual contact with certain minors, I believe. I'm not entirely sure. I didn't really dig deep into those allegations because those have been, you know, reported quite extensively. No charges have ever been filed against him. And he denies any wrongdoing whatsoever. You know, one of the things in your story I was interested in is that you mentioned he started doing this in 2017, which is what quite a few years ago, actually needs to say how fast time goes. But in fact, he didn't register as a lobbyist in the state of Hawaii until this past spring, roughly what six months or less ago. And I guess he was not a lobbyist part of that time. Was was his wife a lobbyist? She's not registered as as far as I know as a lobbyist here. And as to why he registered last April, nobody seems to really know. Both Warren Lee, the president of who Honewa, which is also called Honewa Ola Bioenergy, both Warren and Jennifer Johnson both said that, you know, Kevin's role hasn't really changed over the years. So why he registered as a lobbyist in April? It's hard to know. And he he declined to speak with me on the phone. So I wasn't able to ask him directly. But you did find out and it's one of the remarkable things in your in your reporting, the number of people, the individual people in state government and county government that he had approached and tried to gain support from for this project. It was, may I say, prodigious. And of course, your efforts were prodigious in getting the names of all those individuals. It seemed like dozens and dozens. He left no stone unturned. Am I right? Well, I, you know, who knows the extent of the, you know, the outreach he did. I was only able to document, you know, some of it and but the ones that I was able to confirm that he was lobbying were like the state energy officer, the top business and economic development director, the consumer advocate, the mayor of the Big Island, county council members, chambers of commerce, you know, any health community meetings. You know, I wasn't able to document specifically his contacts with some of these lawmakers, but there are there is one photograph that we came across on Ron Cochise, the Senate president's website or I'm sorry, his Facebook page of him with Jennifer Johnson and Rob Robinson, the guy who Jennifer fired and brought Kevin in to replace so we know that they met with with Ron Cochise. You know, I reached out to some senators like Glenn Wukai and Donovan Delacruz and Ron Cochise just to ask them, like, you know, was was Kevin lobbying you guys to try to, you know, introduce legislation that would benefit Huonua and they all said that they were not lobbied by him. So, you know, I don't know. I don't have independent information to that effect, though. He was approaching all the he was approaching all these people, including a number of legislators like I get I get that from your article. But did you have independent, you know, confirmation of the fact that he that it wasn't just a friendly visit. It was more and that he was going to get them to support the project. Well, definitely. I mean, when it comes to like the energy officer, the consumer advocate and the director of the Department of I don't know the full acronym, but it's like the business development, Mike McCartney, they all confirmed that, yeah, I mean, they had multiple meetings with him. Well, I wasn't able actually to talk with Dean Nishina, the consumer advocate. He he he didn't flat out declined to talk with me, but he, you know, through his PR, the PIO, the public information officer, like he was always busy and, you know, couldn't make himself available. But but Glenn Scott and Mike McCartney, they both, yeah, I mean, they they talked to me about the multiple meetings they had with him and, you know, what he wanted them to do. And and basically like he wanted them to come out and publicly say like who knew is a good project, you know, this this would be good for the state. You know, I mean, I don't think he specifically said, like, you know, the PUC should should approve it. But I mean, he definitely, you know, wanted their endorsement and felt like, you know, these top level state officials, if they were to come out and say it was a good project that that might carry some weight with the PUC. That was definitely the intent of his efforts. You mentioned Scott Glenn, then the state chief energy office. I remember something in your article about how Kevin Johnson was was working on articles that were issued by Scott Glenn. Can you tell us a story about that? Well, who knew it was running, getting ready to run some radio ads? And he he actually asked Scott Glenn to look at the the scripts for the radio ads and, you know, help improve them or fact check them. And, you know, and Scott Scott did that, you know, he sent back some some suggestions for edits and things like that. And I know that this was in the article, too, that Kevin, you know, came to Scott with like a draft memorandum of understanding between the state and who knew where, you know, he wanted the state to say that like they were going to provide, you know, these invasive species, these trees like strawberry guava and albizia, like, you know, because the big island does have a problem with these invasive trees. And, you know, it's like, what are we going to do with these things? And so the goal was, OK, if we have a draft memorandum in place to to indicate that the state is going to provide all these these trees that we want to get rid of that could be burned at who knew, like that that would be yet more like support. It would show that the state, you know, sees the value in this plant. And but Scott didn't he didn't sign off on this memorandum of understanding because he didn't really see any any real place or role for the state energy office to play when it comes to invasive species management. So he he basically said, you know, the one you really need to convince is the PUC. It's not my office. So he didn't sign off on it. That was correct. Well, I guess one one thing that comes to mind is with all of these meetings, all of these contacts, all of these well, it walk ins, you know, in personal attempts to you know, get people to support the new project. Would you say from your reporting that his efforts were successful that he actually changed the minds of the officials who we approached? No, I mean, the PUC hasn't approved it. And the people he, you know, made outreach to at least these top, you know, officials of the E.G.A. administration, they didn't do what he wanted them to do, which was to, you know, publicly endorse who knew and, you know, Jennifer John or Jennifer Potter, you know, voted against it. So it's hard to see what he's really accomplished, I guess. But, you know, there was a couple of meetings you mentioned in your article where Kevin Johnson organized meetings of local residents on the Big Island and try to get their support. But as I recall from your article, they were not impressed. What was the general consensus of the people you spoke with regarding his, you know, effectiveness in these meetings? Well, the ones that I managed to contact, you know, they thought he was well spoken. You know, he's a very magnetic, you know, charismatic guy. He's he's kind of, you know, he does have that kind of star power. But I didn't get the sense that people were really buying what he was offering. You know, there's one woman who attended, who was trying to get him to answer some technical questions about the project. And, you know, he didn't really deliver on that. He even said in his deposition in that lawsuit that he's he's not into the technical stuff. Like, that's not his bailiwick, you know, his role is like relationship building and, you know, just winning people over so that they will, you know, come on his side and support the project. So some of them, some of them related to you that they didn't know why he was there, what role he was playing. And they were confused as to why this person should organize a community meeting and come and talk to them and try to get this support. And it was not clear what his relationship was with the project. Am I right? Yeah, I mean, there was one gentleman in particular who lives in the neighborhood near Huonua, who was just kind of baffled about why this, you know, former mayor of Sacramento, California, former NBA star would be, you know, talking at a public meeting in a in a small town in the Big Island about a tree burning process. Like, it just didn't really make much sense. And he asked him after the meeting, like, what is your role? And Kevin apparently told him, like, it's to meet people, to shake people's hands. And and the guy said, yeah, well, that's what he did. I mean, he shook my hand and he moved around the room and he was shaking other people's hands. So, you know, that's kind of what what he was doing. And, you know, the guy said, well, that seems like a strange line of work, but whatever strange line of work. Your reporting indicated that for meeting people and shaking hands, he was getting $50,000 a month. But let me do the math on that. That's $600,000 a year. It sounds like a really terrific job. Plus, he had a what? Some kind of percentage interest in the project. Can you talk about it? Yes, I mean, that was in the court filings. I mean, that was that those figures were listed in a filing made by Harold Robinson's attorneys. So when I ran that by Jennifer Johnson, I said, you know, is he still making that or was he making that at the time? And she said that she wouldn't put much stock into those numbers because, you know, they were provided by, you know, the plaintiff's attorneys. So I did ask her like Robinson, the one who sued her for wrong determination. They were not friends. Not at that point. No, they had a big falling out. But I did ask her like, well, what is he making now? And do you want to set the record straight on those numbers? And, you know, she she declined. I mean, she basically she said she didn't know what they were and that they go to his company anyway. And she stressed that like they don't go directly to Kevin Johnson. They go to his company and there's many people working at the company. You know, so it was. Yeah, I tried to press her to get me like, what is the figure he's making? And then she did say like, well, why do you want to know that? Or and I said, well, I think people in Hawaii or anywhere really are interested in what do lobbyists really make, you know, and for a lot of working people, like, you know, 20, you know, 50 grand a month is that's like strong, strong change in the pocketbook, you know, so I was personally interested in it. But, you know, she she didn't want to reveal anything about the the actual figure. According to Robinson, his I think it was a five percent share. I I saw it right on a call. When, yeah, in addition to the millions of dollars. Yeah, well, she said, you know, this this project will never make any money. You know, it's a big money loser. And, you know, she just said they'll never be any project up. So he was according to that document, in addition to the 50 grand a month, he was supposed to get five percent of any project upside, meaning like, you know, if it made money, he would get a five percent stake. And, you know, Robinson's attorneys were saying, like, you know, Jennifer stands to make, you know, millions of dollars on this. Like, it's a it's a great project. And yet her attorneys were saying, like, this is a total money pit. You know, it's like a sinkhole for cash. And like, like they were trying to really downplay that this project would ever make money. And she actually kind of confirmed that. I mean, she said, even if this project does go forward, she'll never recoup the amount of money she's put into it. And, you know, it's just been a really painful process for her to be involved with. Well, this is like a 20 or 30 year agreement here where she would earn money, whatever it was, over a long period of time. And I guess the upside would be the upside over that period of 20 or 30 years. That turns into a lot of money, because, as you said, this this this energy would have been above market. It would have cost the people of the Big Island more than other sources of energy. Yes. Well, I was just going to say she disputed that. She took issue with that critique of the project that, you know, the energy would actually be more expensive. She said that when those calculations were done, it was when oil prices were like really, really low, I think. And anyway, she was like with the war in Ukraine and with oil prices, you know, being what they are now, that she doesn't think that that figure, you know, that it would add eleven dollars to people's monthly bills is accurate. So she she disputed that. So last, you know, last time I looked, she had, she said she'd put in four hundred million dollars in this project. But in your article, it was five hundred million dollars. So whatever it is seems to be going up a hundred million per annum somehow. But with all of that investment, and then she tells you he's not going to make any money on it. And she's actually a long way from getting the approval that she hired Kevin Johnson to get. Why do you understand? Do you know that she tell you why he continues to to flog this position? Why is she so determined to make this happen, to get the approval to, you know, make the project happen when she herself says, I'll never make any money on it. I mean, she told me she still believes in the project. She thinks that, you know, the Big Island needs a diverse energy portfolio and that, you know, battery or solar plus battery and wind just, you know, aren't aren't reliable enough or, you know, firm enough to to, you know, get the island to where it needs to be. And, you know, she also talked about, you know, the jobs that who would create for or I mean, they actually there are actually people working there. And they have been working there all during the pandemic. She was very she definitely wanted to get that message out that, you know, she's been she's employed them, you know, for a long time, even through the pandemic, even though the plant isn't open and these are good, well-paying jobs with 401ks and health insurance and all that. You know, she also said, like, if it gets into operation, there'll be it'll be a real boost to like a forestry industry on the island because the plant would burn these eucalyptus trees that are, you know, growing on the island. And, you know, she just one of the matters is she she's not going to make any money herself, but it's going to help other people on the island. Is that something that you could accept from your reporting? Um, I mean, you know, honestly, I am not an energy expert. I'm just I'm a general assignment reporter. So I mean, I I don't think I'm really in a position at this point, at least to say whether, you know, her claims are valid or not. But, you know, you ask me why she stays committed to the project. And I mean, this is what she told me. So the last question I have for you, because Marco has some questions about the permitting issue, your other article, I'm going to go to that in a minute. But my last question for you, Paula, is, you know, are you satisfied that you got to the bottom of what you were looking for? Are you satisfied that you found what you were reporting for, what you were investigating for? And if not, what would you say your if you were unable to get what was missing, what is missing? Because I know, you know, there's a fair chance you'll write on this again. There should be. But what else is out there that you would investigate? Um, well, I mean, I I think, you know, it's kind of the classic journalism yarn that, you know, you follow the money. And obviously, there's there's been a lot of money that's been put into this project. Maybe there's a lot of money to be made. You know, even off of, I mean, there's going to be more lawsuits, I'm sure. You know, and, you know, maybe there's settlements out there where money can be recouped. So I think that there's just a lot of questions about just the money aspect of this. And then, of course, there's, you know, there were some attempts at legislation last session, these bills that would have benefited Huonua, you know, why were those introduced? You know, were there were there any promises made? Like, hey, if this bill gets passed, you know, you'll reap a reward. I mean, I'm not trying to imply anything. But I just feel like the world of lobbying is is murky. And, you know, it can be hard to prove things. And so, no, I mean, I'm not entirely satisfied by what I was able to accomplish with the article, but at least I feel like it shed some light on, you know, some of the inner workings, like how how Huonua is attempting to go about, you know, the outcome that it wants to see. So, you know, there are a lot of people in town who were surprised to find what you wrote about. They didn't know this. They didn't know the extent of the lobbying, the extent of Huonua's efforts to approach individual officials and legislators. So it's really quite remarkable what you came came up with. And compliments to you, kudos to Civil Beat for doing this investigative report again, you know, giving us the revelations that you have given us on behalf of everyone I know in the community. Thank you very much, Paula, for that. Thank you. Appreciate that. Marco, your turn. Thank you. Just kind of one little factoid here. I actually was on the receiving end of Kevin Johnson reaching out to me via email a long, long time ago. Somehow I got on his radar screen and I thought, well, this is interesting. He must know very little about me as far as my publicly coming out against the plan a long time ago. So once I let him know that any communication thereafter ceased. So I thought I would add that I wanted to talk to you, Paula, about your most recent piece, the one that came out regarding the mess regarding permitting and a little bit of background. I've known Warren Lee for more than 22 years. He, in fact, was my boss for several years when Provision was part of my electric industry. So yeah, I worked under him and got to know him, at least to some degree. And then he had eight years as Department of Public Works chief under one Mayor Billy Canoy. And I was astonished, astonished and stunned at what went down, apparently, under his watch. And Warren, as far as I know, no longer lives on the Big Island, hasn't lived on the Big Island for a number of years now, was essentially called brought out of quasi retirement by Jennifer Johnson and her who knew project, and he's been at that now for a number of years. I was stunned. I was stunned at what went down under Warren's watch. And I reread the letter from the current DPWP chief Steve Paz before we went on the air today. And I was I was kind of stunned by his language as well. I mean, that you had and I'm a contractor. I've been a contractor now going for 20 years. So I know the game that is played with county. I know the permitting game. I have to and I have to get it right. Otherwise, my company doesn't survive. So I know something about the contracting and I know something about Warren. I know something about who knew him. And I put all these knowing somethings together and just. I'm dealing with the question of how in the world, one war and the with all his credit, all his smarts, all his experience could allow all this stuff to go down on his watch. And the stuff that I read from Steve Paz, these were not trivial matters of non-compliance, these were very substantive. So it just boggles my mind as to how this could have happened under Warren. So you spoke to Warren, you've had some exchanges with Warren. What kind of hit or vibe energy do you get from him? Other than, oh, well, these are trivial. You know, we're dealing with it, minor oversight. So however you try to spin it, we were able to get any more insight into how this happens under Warren's watch of Juanua. Well, he claims that, you know, the paperwork was all submitted and that it got lost at the county level when the county switched over from one building permit software program to another. So I mean, he didn't concede anything as far as what they have or haven't done like far as in his mind, like this is all in the county. And and but, you know, but we'll we'll get it all straightened out. You know, we'll resubmit what needs to be resubmitted. And, you know, it'll all be taken care of. So, you know, that's that's kind of what he said. And, you know, I don't know. I really don't know exactly. You know, I don't work at the county. I mean, I could just tell you what the DPW director, like he didn't he didn't buy that at all. Like because I after Warren, you know, told me that I did go back to Steve Posse and, you know, said, well, you know, could this actually be a matter of missing paperwork that, like with the software program change that it just got lost? And he just said now that that's just not plausible. You know, he said that a lot of these the way a lot of this worked out was that it was like verbal agreements that, you know, that that who knew I had verbal agreements with the previous DPW leadership. And, you know, that's how some of this was able to go forward. And then, you know, there's also the question about incremental permitting, like like Warren said, that that's that's kind of the way it was being approached was like, you know, you could build certain structures or, you know, refurbish certain structures and, you know, get a permit here and a permit there, like you didn't have to have it all completed and then submit the whole finished thing to the county to get, you know, one big sign off. It was kind of like done in stages and, you know, that a lot of it is still in the works and yeah. So anyway, it's funny because, you know, we've had other shows about this. And the newspaper articles that we've seen, I've seen suggest that the project is just about complete. Just about complete. So the idea of incremental permits doesn't really work when the project is just about complete. Yeah, they do say it's about 99 percent complete. But, you know, if you read the latest exchange between the DPW and Warren, like the county rewrote him again on December 9th, I want to say, like kind of reminding of these upcoming deadlines to get things submitted. And, you know, they're, you know, they're basically saying like these are critical deadlines and there's, you know, critical steps that need to be taken now. So it's it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I mean, there's obviously some tension there between, you know, this new DPW director who just started, I think it was over the summer. And, you know, it seems like they're they're trying to make things go according to, you know, you have to stick to the book and like do things, you know, this way there's a process. And it sounds like the way that it was handled previously was according to a different process, perhaps a little bit looser or, you know, whatever. But yeah, I think that the building division chief, she called it a, quote, huge mess. So we'll have to see how that plays out. Why do I feel there's another story in that? Well, they have these upcoming deadlines in February. To March to get this sorted out. So it'll be, yeah, it'll be interesting to see what ultimately happens. So, but yeah, I mean, but even if the permits, the county permits do get granted, I mean, it still, you know, needs to go back to the PUC. You know, it's not going to operate unless the PUC signs off on it. Now, the Constitution of the PUC has changed quite a bit lately, as you know, like there's a new commissioner and, you know, and another, well, there's two new commissioners and the chair has changed, you know, since Jay Griffin stepped down. So, you know, if it does go back to the PUC, it might meet a more favorable reception than it did the last time around. One last question before we go, we do got to go. Let me make a couple of quick points, please. Just one, just this one question. Do you have any information from your reporting that Uho Nua or Evan Johnson approached any other commissioner then or more recently on this issue? I haven't. No, I haven't really. I don't know if he's doing that now or not. I haven't really looked into it. I just kind of wanted to get that one story written and get it out the door. You know, since he's not talking to me, you know, it's hard to know, but it's a good question. It's a good question. Sorry, Marco, you turned to wrap up. Yes, yeah, a couple of quick things. One fact to add is that to my knowledge, maybe Paul, you know, different to my knowledge, Mayor Mitch Roth of the island has declined, refused, has not publicly taken a stance regarding Uho Nua. I've tried myself. I've questioned subordinates and he has I can find no record whatsoever of Mitch Roth saying yes or no on it, which I find kind of disappointing on such a high profile project. And the second thing I wanted to point out is that one of who only was talking points over the years has been look what a good neighbor we are. Look at what we do for the community. Look what we will do for the community. And to me, not being in compliance with multiple permits and being on the subject of fines, one can argue, I think, pretty persuasive way that this belies the notion of good neighborliness on the part of Uho Nua. Good neighbors don't do things like that. The contractors who are going by the book and playing the game, the way it needs to be played don't do stuff like that. So I think that's again, I just find the puzzling that this would all happen under war and swatch. So this has been a super, super interesting, valuable and worthwhile time to spend with you, Paula, and you as well, Jay. So I just want to thank you very much for being on with us. And hopefully your reporting will continue on the subject and you can join us again sometime. Thank you, Paula. No worries. Thank you guys. And thank you, Marco. Aloha to you both. Aloha. Thank you both. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.