 Okay, well good afternoon everybody and thank you for joining us for the latest event from the Freeman Air and Space Institute. Today, see it to beat women leading in air and space power. This event is one that I'm very pleased to be able to introduce. Because one of the key things that has occurred to me as we've established the Freeman Institute is that there is sometimes a lack of understanding and awareness of just how many women are making vital and important contributions to the world of air and space power. And the purpose of this event, which is not a pure standalone but hopefully the first of many is to showcase a number of the leading lights in air and space power thinking business and practitioners today. I joined by the chief of the air staff so Mike Wigston and thank you once again for Mike for generously providing your time to support the Institute and so Mike will be hearing from him later this afternoon, but I'm also joined. Excuse me by Victoria Foy. Victoria is a member of the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter Steering Committee, and she's the executive vice president of Safran Siech GB. And today, she is here, joining me, because the Freeman Air and Space Institute is signing up as a supporting organization to the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter. In the absence of face-to-face contact, there's a slight element of a blue Peter here's one we prepared earlier, and we have signed up to the Charter. Now, I will hand over if I may to you, Victoria, if you'd like to start with a few words but thank you for coming and thank you of course to all our panelists and once again to some Mike. Also note please just before I hand over to Victoria, I've forgotten one admin point as per usual, and that is to note that A, this is being recorded. And secondly, please ask questions in the Q&A rather than the chat. Victoria, forgive me for my slight introductory faux pas there, but now over to a few words from you please. Thank you. No problem and thank you, David. So I'm not sure whether in this virtual world people can see the certificate, but hopefully you can and if you can't, well, we'll make sure that it's posted. I want to say a firm congratulations and thank you to the team for joining the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter. Really good news for the Charter and I'm sure will be great news for your Institute. Maybe just a few additional words. Actually, this is quite a proud moment for me personally. You said, David, I became a member of the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter Board and Steering Committee earlier this year. And I'm the co-lead for the working group, which is committed to involving and integrating more signatures. So thank you for being my first signatory. The Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter was founded in 2018. And since that time, we have now somewhere in the order of 230 signatures from across the industry and supporting organizations, all with the shared ambition and commitment to have a more gender balanced sector. And I guess this is no more true than presently in the wake of the pandemic. It's really important that we keep the gender balance in mind as we recover from COVID-19 pandemic. To put very simply, the Charter commits to supporting the progression of women into senior roles within the sector by seeking signatures like yourselves to commit on key targets and to drive change within organizations and in the industry as a whole. In addition, it creates a great opportunity to build networks and learn from best practices, especially those which you'll find if you go on to the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter website, such as the Resource Hub, and also the Calm Ferry Report, which is known as propelling a gender balanced industry. Before I hand over to Sophie, I just want to share a first, a few personal reflections. I was fortunate more than 25 years ago to stumble across another fellow professional who convinced me, who gave me belief that I wanted, and I could pursue my ambition to be at that point to achieve financial officer in industry and laterally achieve executive officer in industry. And I'm absolutely convinced that by being part of this organization, by being part of the Women in Aviation and Aerospace Charter, you too will inspire other young women to pursue their ambitions and to fulfill their ambitions. So I want to say once again congratulations and thank you for joining the charter. And on that point I'm going to hand over to Sophie. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, everybody. My name is Dr Sophie Antropas. I'm a research associate at the Freeman Air and Space Institute. Victoria, thank you very much for those kind words and I can only reflect equally on how important it is to have people to encourage and mentor you throughout your career. Before I introduce our fantastic panelists and speakers, each of which will briefly introduce themselves and tell us a bit about their work. They come from all areas from academic research, space power, the Royal Air Force and industry. So a really, really great set of people. I just wanted to remind you that we will have time for questions afterwards. Please do use the Q&A rather than the chat function for your questions and please start putting them in as soon as you want to. So yeah, questions please in the Q&A area and we'll come on to those in a little while. But without further ado, because it's really about these fabulous women telling you about their work, I'll introduce our first panelist. She's Wing Commander Gemma Austin. She's an RAF doctor and the Chief of the Air Staff Research Fellow in the Department of Aerospace Medicine here at King's College London. Her research examines whether there were any historic iniquities within the aerospace medicine field that may be impacting diversity and inclusion within the UK military aerospace branches and trades. Gemma's current focus is on the potential challenges of urinating whilst airborne and whether this disproportionately affects and impacts female crew. Her foray into formal research has developed from a wish to answer the question, why aren't more of my aircrew patients female? Gemma, over to you. Sophie, thank you very much for inviting me today. Sophie's asked us to talk about sort of what's drawn us into the aerospace world and how we've ended up doing the jobs we're currently doing. So I can't really remember when I was first drawn in because it's always been something I've wanted to do. And certainly long before I chose medicine as my career. And 20 years in it's been a fun journey with wide ranging roles from being a chemical GP as SMO on station through tier on ops. And as the branch advisor so no day has been the same, but I've come to formal research of really what will be the midpoint in my career having been inspired during my diploma in aerospace medicine at King's which advanced the core training that all doctors get within the RF. And aerospace medicine focuses on determining and maintaining the health safety and performance of those involved in aviation and space travel. And a fundamental part of this is physiology and human performance. But during the course our textbooks and lectures, barely touched on sex and gender differences. A lot of the empirical studies and aerospace medicine using men to apply to all humans. But over in the sports physiology world, things are changing quite dramatically. And they're lifting the lid and examining and harnessing the differences between men and women, sparked really by disparity in the middle count in Rio. So it got me reflecting on what areas may exist within my area of interest, a similarly demanding profession where physiology, physicality and psychology play a huge part in performance of our radiators. And I felt I had questions that needed an evidence answer. And the Air Force have really supported me in pursuing this with a full time research position for two terms. And as Sophie said, this is going to explore a thesis on whether there is potential historical hidden bias within aerospace medicine to my area, and whether this has got an impact on the diversity within the flying franchises and trades. It will surprise none of you that there is no simple answer and certainly the solution doesn't sit purely with aerospace medicine, but I think it's a good time in our history within the Air Force to start looking deeply at how we all contribute to each other's success. And only a very small percentage of our pilots are women and there's no evidence that there's any difference in male and female flying ability, one being better than the other. And so we need to understand why we're not doing better if you my representation. And over the years I've recognized the privilege we have as our doctors and we get to have conversations with our people that no other leaders can easily do because of the nature of the topics. And whilst details are always strictly confidential, themes can be really powerful to amplify quiet voices and get sort of unknown issues out into the agenda in a sensitive way. And so my focus has fallen on urination behaviors in all aircrew, as a useful vehicle to demonstrate a range of tangible potential problems that may be disproportionately affecting female aircrew, and just aren't get out there in general conversation because of sort of the normal taboo around urination that we have within society. But needing a way at work is a basic fact of life. And within the airborne workplace we've got toilets, quite literally fit for the queen, right through to standalone devices used in the seat or cabin. And the role and function of each of our aircraft it takes what can be used for women. There are multiple potential additional challenges from flying suit design for melanatomy, the zip just not providing the access needed to some an open cabin restricting your privacy and sometimes having very limited options like urinal facilities, and then trying to integrate menstruation amongst this makes it difficult. And why this matters in aviation is because of the potential outcomes to flight safety flight performance and personal health and well being of any behavior adaptation that may be chosen to avoid the need to urinate. And if you avoid through deliberate dehydration being dehydrated can reduce your cognitive and physical performance would use. Increase risk of decompression sickness hypoxia bladder health issues like incontinence and uti eyes. So you've got flight safety flight performance and that personal health and well being just captured there if that's how you choose to do it. And if you hold you risk distraction and impacting your situation awareness and if you do decide to go there are sort of some technical issues like the need to unstrap or reinsert your injector pin that just may make me so much bigger tasks and on the ground. But we at the moment we've got no empirical evidence as to what the actual prevalence of any behavior changes is and just eye opening anecdotes from both men and women that require some formal probing to really see what the nature of any issues are. And just to clearly say this isn't a fast jet problem or UK only problem. All airborne roles have potential challenges and this is an internationally recognized research gap at the moment. And so the formal research project is going through the final stages of ethical approval and we should actually have some data to analyze over the summer. And that's when my day job will shift to the analysis. And but I think what we're going to be able to do is have an understanding more about whether we're supporting a basic human need equitably and whether this could have a positive effect on sustaining and retaining our incredibly valuable aircrew and reduce any unnecessary risk or harm to these individuals. We need to understand these potential problems now so they're not carried through into the next generation of Air Force people and capabilities. And that's really sort of the passion behind this project and why I'm enjoying so much is it's sort of much more than aerospace medicine the potential for these answers. We also asked us to discuss role models and I'm afraid I'm going to cop out slightly here and not nominate one person. But my branch grew in support of flying so we to start with had a very similar demographic demographic of Western men initially leading the way. But this has changed dramatically and within the RF medical services where I sit with very nearly gender balance and can really see what we can be. I have two women in two star positions and within just my medical officer peer group. We've got women leading the RF response to COVID-19 inspiring us as our command flight medical officer delivering in clinical readership roles across the NHS and DPHC and even sort of personal staff officers. So I'm sport for choice and accordingly just think as a branch we can really role model what can be achieved with increasing female representation. So thank you Sophie back to you. Thanks Gemma. This research is just so interesting and Gemma and I have had longer chats about it. Do do put in any questions you have because she's got some fascinating background but also some of the anecdotes we've shared have been interesting. Anyway moving on thank you to Julia Baum, our next panelist. Julia is a PhD student here at the Freeman Air and Space Institute. Her research examines the UK space posture and assesses the UK's approach towards space policy making in the new space age. She holds an MA in non proliferation and international security from King's College London, as well as an honours BA in history from the University of Toronto. Julia over to you. Thanks Sophie. Hi everyone and thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure and honour to show the panel such as steamed women, especially as someone who is very much early career. But to just jump right in with a bit of background on myself. I entered the space sector through a very creative start with my childhood and teenage years assuming I'd pursue a ballet career professionally. And when that didn't work out, I switched plots completely in undergrad where I instead focused on Soviet Cosmism and manifestations of early space activity through artistic means. And continue this research my masters. So, in regards to academia there really isn't a singular track for anyone. And having a diverse set of knowledge I've found has been really quite useful as a researcher applying and approaching any field comprehensively. So, when this comes to space, in academia it's a beautiful multifaceted field, and I was really drawn to this webbed nature that drives man to space through either logic or passion and what inspires our approaches to space not only historically or artistically but ambitiously moving forward. And certainly there's more space for researchers in this area as well. For my PhD in FASI, my research focuses on what it means to thrive in space, and I'm building a strategic theory as a framework for this assessment. This framework is targeted at longevity for a national posture across fluctuating political economic conditions and I use the case study of the UK to assess its application as well as its utility for space power. As every space faring nation has a unique set of needs and goals for space development. I hope this framework will inform a more tailored approach towards national postures. And ultimately I'm trying to better understand what it means to make ambitions realistic for any space power seeking sustainable development and resilience geared growth over time. So this role consists pretty much of a very diverse schedule day today. Depends on the amount of readings I have as well as lectures, conferences, panels and webinars are either sign up to attend or speak at. Most recently I spoke at CSIS Pony Capstone Conference last week on the modernization program of Putin's hypersonic missiles. So the fun part about a research career is that you can kind of view it like an octopus in a way where I have my main body of interest and focus in my PhD, but there's also arms extending outwards into topics that both directly and indirectly correlate to my PhD and to each other. So while I research space power and space strategy and I also extend this research into space policymaking, space security, new age politics and space weapons, including various other topics to ensure my research is a comprehensive mosaic that reflects this complex orchestra of space today. Moving on to the role model that Gemma so kindly noted with her team. I'm going to recommend Dr. Normana Goswami. She's an independent scholar from India who co-authored the book Scramble for Skies, the great power competition to control the resources of outer space in 2020. And she does extensive research on India and China space programs and strategic cultures. She's also currently working on two books on space power and China's grand strategy. So keep an eye out for those. But I think she's a fantastic idol to look up to in space scholarship, because well, I think she's brilliant and inspiring, but also because her work on strategic implications is at the nexus of space policy IR and grand strategy. So I'll just leave this with saying that space sector is incredibly welcoming and full of opportunities. There's also plenty of room for more space academics to bridge gaps and develop new research. Also, as I mentioned earlier, diverse backgrounds and expertise are a massive asset in this field. I'm quite enthusiastic about anyone with star eyes wanting to explore the field of space power and space security through academia. And I look forward to watching this field grow onward and upward. So thank you and I'll pass it off to the next panelist. Thanks so much Julia. I absolutely loved your description of PhD researchers as being a bit like an octopus. It certainly was for me in my journey and in fact, today we'll be publishing a bit of an article about something I've just co-published with another ex-military veteran scholar, Hannah West, about the deeply old and looking at gender from the perspective of veteran researchers. So all sorts of things come out of PhDs. I can't recommend enough making the most of all of those opportunities. It's not just writing the thesis, although clearly you need to do that. Okay, moving on then, I'm delighted for you. So we've had two very different aspects of air and space power research. I think you'll agree. But keeping a bit on the theme of space, I'm delighted to introduce Nicola Bolton. Nick has a master's degree in physics with astrophysics from Manchester University. And she joined the RAF as a weapon system officer on tornado F3 fast jets. Continuing her specialism in aerospace, she now works for the UK Space Agency, and she's the lead for the government satellite communications. Previous roles she's had have included in international engagement and instigating the forthcoming national space strategy. She's a STEM ambassador for the UK government and she mentors girls looking to begin a career in science. Over to you. Nicola Bolton, it's nice to be with you virtually. So Nicola Bolton, how did I get into the aerospace sector? Well, it's a bit of a bit of a random one. I was born in a very rural part of Ohio in America. And I think there must have been something in the soil because it was about 10 miles away from where Neil Armstrong was born and raised. I remember my mum saying that I talked about space passionately and I wanted to be a national from before I even remember. And so that's been the golden thread through my career in what would otherwise be quite a varied sort of all over the show career path. And I think that's probably my number one takeaway today is that I think a straight career path or a linear line of expertise is becoming more and more rare these days. And so for anybody on the call, I would say I would say that if you want, if you're interested in the aerospace sector, you don't need to be a deep technical expert. Our sectors need people from all sorts of different backgrounds, knowledge and experience. And so as Sophie mentioned, I had a physics of astrophysics. And as much as I enjoyed it, I wanted something with a bit more action. So I successfully applied to be aircrew in the RF. And as we heard before, I can really relate to the challenges of needing a loo in a fast jet cockpit. I recently found myself at the UK Space Agency and I have to admit, I think this is where I've really, I've never really looked back. Space has been and continues to be my absolute passion. But I would also say that encouraging other people, whether it's men, women from no matter what background they're in is also one of my passions. On a day to day basis, I tend to spend my days either emailing or talking to people, teaching them about the benefits of space. Most people think of, when they think of space, they think about astronauts, they think about satellites and rockets. But actually space gives us huge benefits. It impacts parts of our daily lives, whether it be from providing the data for weather forecasting, whether it's getting from A to B using your phone with GPS, or whether it's looking at the changes to the climate. So I work across government to look at how we can encourage the UK space sector and how we can benefit more from it. I thought a couple of memorable highlights might be interesting for the audience though. So in my time at the Space Agency, I managed to represent the UK at the UN Space Committee and I'm pleased to say that I didn't create a diplomatic incident, success. Having dinner sat next to the NASA chief scientist and talking about his plans for exploring gas giant planets and for exploring Mars and then being on a first name basis with him. For my inner five-year-old, that was just so ex-fizing. And the last one would probably be knocking on the number 10 Danish street door and walking in to go and meet with the Prime Minister's advisor on what we wanted to get from a National Space Council and what we would want to get from a National Space Strategy. Again, just a really surreal day. I have to say I've opted out of putting forward one particular inspirational woman because there's so many that I can think of. Whether it be astronauts like Kathy Sullivan or Simonetta Dupippo who heads up the UN Space Office. Or even Raina Owens who's in the Air Force really leading the UK's military space policy. But I think I've worked with so many people, in particular women who inspire me every day and they're the ones who face challenges. Whether that be small failures, whether it's maybe an offhand comment that they've had that makes them question themselves just that little bit more than we already naturally do. But then they do it anyway. And for me working with those people and sharing the fact that I think we all but certainly know I do questions myself. I feel imposter syndrome. And sometimes I think I really shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be at a table at the UN. I shouldn't be sat next to the NASA chief scientist. And I shouldn't be knocking on the number door at number 10 Downing Street door. I do it anyway. And so for me, I would say just do it anyway. Thank you. I so agree. Yes. I mean, just, yeah, just do it. Things like saying yes to being asked. I was asked to give the Peter Nader the French lecture of Gresham College as the first woman ever to do it last year. And I just thought. And then I went, yes. And I certainly enjoyed it. So it was brilliant advice. Okay. Okay. Turning now to a commodore Siriah Marshall. Siriah joined the RS as a navigator in 1994. She spent three years, three tools, sorry, flying on the tornado S3 serving on many operational deployments and qualified as a weapons instructor. She's commanded 92 squadron in the air warfare center. 55 squadron, which delivers rear crew flying training and was deputy commander of the RSI staff force. In 2019 she worked as the director of coalition coalition air operations in the Middle East Afghanistan and beyond. Her staff appointments span defense procurement and the joint strategic environment, most recently as military assistant to the vice chief of defense staff. And she assumed command of her current role. Command of Ariya College Pramwell as its commandant in December 2019. Really lovely to have you here Siriah over to you. Thanks Sophie. I'm absolutely delighted to be with you all. Okay. So I'm going to, you know, cover the same set of questions really what drew me into flying. What does my day job consist of and role models. And so I was a very, I was a real late comer to flying. I had no background in it. I didn't really know anything about the Air Force. I wasn't part of the cadets. And I really sort of stumbled into it whilst I was at university. I'd always naggingly wanted to sort of learn how to fly. I have no idea why. Probably because I thought it was relatively exciting that maybe it's because Top Gun was released when I was a child and that had some subliminal influence on me. But I ended up joining the university squadron in my second year and absolutely loved it. Learn how to fly. I found it challenging and exciting, fun. It takes skill both sort of physical dexterity but also sort of mental agility. And it's something that you really want to sort of master. And so when I graduated I decided to join the RAF because I love flying because I felt really at home in the RAF. And I also realized that I didn't quite want an office job at that point in my career. But actually if I look back to that time, you know, in 1992, that's when the policy changed and women were allowed to fly combat aircraft. And I think that sense of equality actually really, really appealed. This idea that there were no artificial barriers, you know, the Air Force is absolutely a meritocracy. And if you are good enough, you will succeed. And I also, in reflecting backwards, you know, I grew up in the era of Margaret Thatcher and like her or Lothar as a woman. She was nonetheless, sorry as a politician, she was nonetheless a woman at the very top of her career and arguably the sort of top job in the country. And I think actually as a young woman embarking on my career, I found that pretty empowering. It sort of showed that anything was possible. And so as I joined the Air Force, even as one of the very first few women to do it, I think I genuinely wasn't daunted or put off by that prospect and it seemed the sort of natural choice of career for me. So what does my day job consist of then? I don't really think there is any such thing as a normal day and in my career of almost 30 years, it has been so utterly varied and actually that's one of the things I really love about being in the RAF. The first sort of 10, 15 years was absolutely all about flying, you know, establishing those professional credentials, mastering your operational art, sort of understanding air power. And I realized probably listening to Gemma being margely dehydrated and trying desperately not to need the loo whilst I was in the cockpit. And of course as you get more promoted, sorry, more senior and promoted in the RAF, you absolutely build on all of that knowledge that you've acquired, but you move more into leadership roles and you work in other aspects, sort of more broader aspects of what the RAF delivers and of course defence. In terms of role models then, I think being one of the first few women, I don't have sort of an individual role model, certainly not within my career field. This concept of seeing it to be it simply didn't exist because there weren't any. And of course for me at the time when I joined, as I said, because I wasn't daunted by that prospect, I don't think it was necessary, necessarily a problem for me. Of course, Jo Salter, who you'll be hearing from next, she was a few years ahead of me and she was absolutely a role model to all of us who followed after her being the first woman to qualify on jets. But actually a lot of the inspiration I got from people I admired, you know, further on in their careers. And for me, they were mainly men. And I think that's okay. But in my sort of 30 years of experience, I recognise that that's not true for the many people. And if you look at the percentage of women who are flying, you know, now to almost 30 years ago, it hasn't changed kind of as much as we hoped it would. And so I recognise I think the importance of role models is absolutely huge. When I was younger, I sort of shied away from that role. I think I was a bit embarrassed by it. I didn't think that I had the credibility for it. But as I've become more senior, I absolutely recognise the importance of it and the responsibility of being in the positive influence that you can have on others and that's really, really significant. And on that note, I think I'll hand over to Mike Deistro model, Joe Salter. You'd be practically done Joe's introduction for me, Sirai. Thanks so much for that. So yeah, I'm really delighted that our next panellist Joe was Britain's first female fast jet pilot. During 12 years full-time service, her appointments included flying the Tornado GR1 on the front line with 617 squadron teaching junior fast jet pilots as a qualified tactics instructor and working in defence intelligence during the Yugoslav crisis. Outside the RAF, Joe's built a very, very career, running her in management consultancy, lecturing for the OU Business School, working as an inspirational speaker and I've heard her speak and she is very inspirational and writing. She's currently a director in risk at PWC and to add to that, she's also an honorary group captain in 601 squadron. And importantly, in this context, she's joining us as an aviation ambassador for the Department for Transport. Lovely to have you here, Joe, over to you. Thank you very much Sophie. And it's interesting listening to all of this, I've had this massive grin on my face and I suppose yes, I sit here with a number of those different hats. And if we take that first one as an ex fast jet pilot, flying the Tornado GR1 and Gemma, that definitely means like, like Nikki had said as well, I can talk first hand about those challenges of needing to we whilst airborne and definitely the associated behavioural changes that come with it. And yes, then that that second hat, which is along with that 12 years of full time service, I've done 14 years of reservists, the first 10 years flying air cadets, and giving them their experience flights and currently on 601 squadron. And then that third and final hat, and being an aviation ambassador for the Department of Transport. And I'm also a member of our staff diversity council in my day job. And that's so important to mention, because I absolutely believe, fundamentally that having diversity and inclusion embedded within our environment leads to better outcomes. And, and this of course has been evidenced by numerous studies. And I think it brings a creative tension to the way we work as well as avoiding group think and when I think about air and space, particularly, it's critical that our people represent society, and but also embracing better outcomes in such a safety critical environment is absolutely paramount. And I have really championed diversity as Sir I was saying in many ways and human performance is one that I'm absolutely passionate about, because not only is it the right thing to do because flying is actually the brain operating a machine. But it also provides a much bigger pool for us to get our talent from. And because, fundamentally, a lack of talent and a lack of diversity and inclusion leads to issues of both fairness and unhappiness. People become unhappy. And the impact of this has ripple effects that causes so many people a significant amount of time and energy. Just imagine a world where these issues didn't exist. So people can focus on being amazing at what they do at their job and looking after their own well being, rather than spending time on on inequality in the workplace. So, as well as being a female engineer, I've, yes, that firsthand experience of being a minority when I first joined and became Britain's first female fast jet pilot, and I'll be honest, there were times of both overt and covert forms of discrimination. And sometimes they're just jokes, but sometimes the fifth joke or the sixth or the 10th or the 50th isn't funny. And I've always been someone to speak up and speak out and be quite direct. I became part of my formative experience in the workplace, and it's inspired that lifelong passion for and commitment for me to help others in equality, diversity, and most importantly, inclusion. Now, I hate to say that I learned to fly 30 years ago, and things have changed significantly. And, but honestly, it's not enough. So when I put my aviation ambassador hat on, I have the opportunity to promote diversity and inclusion in the aviation sector, where there are significant diversity issues. And I don't mean just in gender when we think about age or other underrepresented groups. And I was looking and I checked the stats today, hoping that the last time I had looked at this statistic it would have changed, but it hadn't. So still today, according to the International Society of Women Airline Pilots, 5% of female. Let me just say that again, 5%. Now, I completed my airline transport pilot's license quite a few years ago now. But there were so many barriers and so much cost to finding a job that I decided to follow a different route. So how can we make sure that we're making opportunities for people to use their talent and not losing them to different industries. And I've got one final point that I wanted to raise, which is about design. Again, when I go back to my twenties when I started flying, one of the arguments about not being allowed to is that women didn't fit. But of course we didn't, when the design had been around the average man, not the average human being. And so we need to be making sure that today when we innovate, when we're introducing new products, when we design air and spacecraft and the relevant equipment to support it, that we're taking of the whole of the human race into account, not just a proportion of it. Now, I want to know where I signed up for the space program actually that's my next thing. Thank you, Sophie. I'll give it back to you. Cheers. Thank you so much, Joe. And couldn't, couldn't support what you're saying more. You do do so much so thank you. Okay, moving on to our final panelists before we go to questions. We've got a few questions in the Q&A but please do, do pile in on, pile in there with your questions for the panel if you want to ask something specific to one member of the panel that's fine, or perhaps a more general one. But first, I'm delighted to introduce Catherine Bennett. She's Senior Vice President and Airbus and leads the company's external engagement and strategy in the UK. She was awarded the OBE in January 2019 for services to the aerospace and aviation sector. In July 2018, Catherine founded the UK's Women in Aviation Aerospace Charter, which we've become a signatory to today, the Freeman Institute, and which you've heard a bit about committed to building a fair and balanced industry for women in this sector. And thank you for doing that, Catherine. She's also on the board of the International Aviation Women's Association. And Catherine is on the move soon. So she's just about to join the High Value Management Manufacturing Catapult, which I can't say without stumbling over it. So, so sorry, as it's CEO very soon. Catherine, thanks for taking time. I know everything must be very busy at the moment, but it's great to have care over to you. Thank you very much, Sophie. And so the last time I did one of these events, the Prince of Wales had done a speech quite recently about the environment and he said he acknowledged he was quite well known for banging on about the environment. And I realise now that over the last few years I also have a reputation for banging on about diversity, gender diversity and aerospace aviation and defence, of course. And I realise that rather than have typical perhaps British reticence, I really needed to see it to be it as you've used Sophie in your title of our conference today. And as others have said, Sophie wanted us to talk about what drew me to the sector. Again, my recognition and remembrance is a little bit hazy. But all I can remember I've been at Airbus now for 16 years. The topic of diversity was not really a big issue, which obviously showed the time the era was in. Before joining aerospace, I worked in automotive. So you could say two industrial sectors that certainly needs to improve its gender balance. I do remember when I worked in the car industry that we had a female plant director, and she did not want to be seen as a role model. She quite adamantly said to us who are working with her, she did not want to do radio for women's hour. She didn't want to be featured as a woman. And I remember at the time, I really disagreed with that. And perhaps as Soraya said earlier, I wasn't sure I wanted to be a role model either, but I knew that it was wrong when a senior person like that didn't speak up. So perhaps that has encouraged me. I'm not an engineer. I'm not really a technical expert. But as I was pleased to hear Nicola say earlier in our sector, you don't have to be a technical expert. But what I am is a huge enthusiast for innovation. I love learning and working alongside innovators. Ingenuity is such a great word. But I knew that perhaps my advocacy and communication skills could help me talk about the sector. So just briefly, if I may say a few words about aviation. In the good times, perhaps before this awful pandemic, our sector was contributed £52 billion to the UK GDP, that's 3.4% of the economy. Airbus alone, we spend £5 billion on UK suppliers, including over 1200 SMEs. So our importance to the UK, you know, I'm happy to bang on about that too. Partnerships are really important to us. Just before the pandemic started, I had the honour of visiting RAF Shawbury to see the work that Airbus helicopters do there with the MFTS guys. And that was incredible to see that. And pleased to see Mike Wigston was there presenting the prizes to the graduates there. The other important thing for me in terms of our sector is to talk about skills and training. Over 4000 people over the last decade have gone through Airbus' early career scheme and a thousand apprentices in the last decade, which is incredible. And I'm so delighted that Airbus and other parts of aerospace and defence have continued with their apprentice schemes throughout this pandemic because it can be all too easy to make decisions. And just in terms of working in aerospace as a female, I can't match Gemma and Nicola's comments about needing the loo in a fast jet, but I do have a story about once taking some VIPs around our factory in north Wales and we could not find the ladies loo anywhere. And in fact, when we did find it, it was locked. And nobody knew the code number for the padlock. So there's issues in industry as well, but some interesting discussions to have there. As Sophie said, in terms of what I do at Airbus at the moment, I'm the lead external facing executive. So I have the honour of participating in panels like this, but also dealing with the government and other industry leaders, ensuring that Airbus' relationships are maintained. My office is literally across the road from King's. So it's wonderful to be part of this session today. As Sophie also said, yes, I was one of the founders of the Women in Aviation Aerospace Charter. I'm absolutely delighted Victoria was with us today. The charter was launched at the Farnborough Air Show in 2018, and we only had about 20 to 30 signatures. And as Victoria said, we've now got 230. And it was incredible. I just knew it was the right thing to be doing when I didn't really have to push the door very hard at certain airlines and airports and other industrial companies. They all felt it was the right thing to do. And then I was also delighted back in September 2019, the Women in Defense Organization launched a Women in Defense Charter as well. So the pattern was established. I also serve on the board of the International Aviation Women's Association. I've done that for the last six years. That's been incredible in terms of the networking. So I would really encourage people to get as involved as they can in organisations such as that. For me, the contacts and the friends I've made around the world, I've got lots of really good friends at Boeing. You know, we don't worry about competition matters there because we're all focused on promoting gender diversity. And one of the things I'm really proud about that I would do is sponsorships and scholarships for young women wanting to go into aerospace and aviation. Of course, one of the most important things is to measure. So the Women in Aviation UK Charter has done some studies recently, as Victoria mentioned, but also Iowa did a global study. And this is where we got those figures about the airline pilots that Joe was just mentioning. Yeah, five to six percent of airline pilots and only 1800 captains are women. So we've got a lot of work to do there in terms of industry as well. There's only 3% of female CEOs in the aerospace and defence industry. And you know, that compares really badly to other industrial sectors where the figures usually 19%. So still a lot of work to be done. But in terms of business and industry, I've got a quote here, forgive me, Joe, it's not from PwC, but it's from Boston Consulting Group. And they came up with some figures recently that says that firms with more diverse teams had operating profit margins at least 9% higher. So that's if they had diverse teams, the profits are higher, which of course is the way business is measured. And I think we need to remember that and use that as an argument. As Sophie also said, I'm moving next month to become CEO of the High Value Manufacturing Catapult, which I'm hugely honoured to be doing. I'm going to be sitting around a table with seven male CEOs. So wish me luck everybody. But I so far had a very warm welcome and I know they're looking forward to the challenges with that role and hope that I can keep in touch with all of you. So my final comment is just a bit of reflection that I read recently, and I use this a lot in work, whether it's on gender diversity topics or just leadership topics, which meant a lot to me, which is, you can persuade with reason, but you motivate with emotion and that goes back to what I was talking about. I really see the need to continue to bang on about this, but also to be a role model. Thank you Sophie. Thank you Catherine and apparently I have, I am not very visible so I am going to share with you my not very attractive normal background. And hopefully this will solve the problem. Can anybody see me? No. Fine, well, I can host the Q&A, you don't have to see my face. You might want to put on the other panellists, Abby maybe. I'm going to crack on with the questions and answers. I'll start with a couple that are aimed directly at specific people and Julia, I'm going to come to you first. A couple of two questions, one from Jason Wilkes. For Julia, what was it in January that attracted you to the space industry from a ballerina? My daughter could be following in your footsteps. And secondly, Dario Balchina from Kazakhstan, I think, what's the path for a PhD in space? Now clearly there must be loads and loads of answers to that, but I'll let you try and have a go at both of those. Yeah, great. I mean, I'll try to keep this as concise as possible, but it's interesting. The first person that I met when I joined FASI was Wing Commander Cliff Fletcher Jones, who's also in ballet as his background. And he studied ballet and then ended up doing masters in the RAF and now he's studying space power. So there's this weird consistency with ballerinas and space power now, which I can't, I don't understand, but it's definitely there. But yeah, even your son could be following in those footsteps. But, you know, I think, God, what attracted me to the space industry is arts consistent across foreign relations. It's used as a tool as well. And, you know, I could cite Sun Siu art of war, but it's the way that we look at things that are really informative. And I don't think that it diverges too far off the path, even though it seems like, you know, dancing on stage to sitting on a panel. It is a performance, both of them. But, you know, you have to sort of, you channel them in different, in different ways. And as for a path for a PhD in space, I tried to touch on this, but there really is no singular path. I just say maybe honing in on your own expertise and finding a topic that you're passionate enough to not want to kill after three years, maybe. But, yeah, I'd look at, I'd look at the Freeman Air and Space Institute for opportunities. I'd look at Leicester, because they've been posting some studentships as well. But for a path in PhD, there's really nothing that I can say that's consistent, but get a master's, find somebody that you would like to have as your dissertation supervisor, maybe in your field. Go to conferences, listen to people speak, ask them for coffees. I was really inspired by Alexandra Stickings when I saw her in a few conferences and I met her for coffee. And she gave me a really great advice about how to get into the industry and just, she also had a diverse path and it was really inspiring. So I think that's what I would say. It's not concrete, but find your own path basically is what I would recommend. Thanks, thanks so much. I'm going to go to Gemma. It's another question from Jason. And he says, great investigation. How does military flying compared to civil airlines for gender balance is the need to use an appropriate toilet piece of the difference. And it may be that other panelists have have a view on the difference between the two, the two as well as, as Gemma, but I'll start with you Gemma, go. Thanks Jason for the question. It's a really interesting trend and it's been touched on a couple of times in the last few presentations. So UK average is about 5%, global average is 6% and the country that's storming ahead is India, and they have over 13% of their female pilots are women. But they've come at this decision much later. So they've come with a very inclusive mindset and tried to design in things like childcare and routing to just make it as inclusive as possible. And then they've also had some really interesting things like a public relations campaign that's included a Netflix film that's absolutely enchanting about the daughters of India now coming into the aviation world to get families involved in promoting it as a career opportunity for their daughters and for women, so accepting it more. Because I said in my bed there is so many factors involved in the barriers and Joe went through a few as well. So there's no simple solution and the toilet certainly isn't, you know, the absolute if we sort that we'll have women, you know, knocking at the door. But what it is is a really useful vehicle as I said to just get people talking and thinking about it in a really different way as to you know what might be hidden and what might also be out there. Because you can have a really great diverse policy, but if you're not actually inclusive, if you don't make your teammates feel like they're valued and respected for who they are and what they bring to the team, then you're not going to have a team that thrives and brings you those great economic returns that Catherine talks about. So that's really sort of the goal behind this is something that gets people talking. And I think nearly everybody's mentioned the toilets. I've obviously got, you know, interesting thoughts going on today, but that's my thoughts on where we are with that. Thanks, Gemma. In fact, I was just remembering at AirPower conferences in the late 90s. There were only the 2000s. There were only ever Caroline White, it was a fence correspondent and one of the women and maybe Catherine in the ladies. It was the same time he had a quiet one. Joe, I know you wanted to come in. So over to you. Yeah, I just wanted to tell a very short story really back in the day when I first arrived on the squadron and of course there was only one set of toilets and there were only men and me I could see Siriah smiling already and remembering it well and Nicky. And the safety equippers made a Velcro sticker that said I had like a little women or men and so you just put up on the Velcro as to whether it was and I often laugh and think we don't have, well I don't have, I don't know about anybody else, two sets of toilets at home. I share with a male member of my family quite easily and it's funny that and again things are moving and changing. It was such a big thing but I always remember walking for a four ship when I would run to get there first because otherwise I'd be delayed. And I'd make it ladies and I'd say sorry guys it's the ladies and they'd all say sorry Joe we're coming in and we just all got on with it. It was a very straightforward simple thing. Thanks, thanks for that Joe. I'm going to move on to a question from Demos Space UK and maybe just else to Nicola first but I'm sure there's others that might want to come in. I hear a lot of discussions about diversity and inclusion aimed at women and this is great, but so few initiatives are targeted at very young girls. Do you think we can change the statistics without addressing the fundamental issues still facing girls about hearing messages about how hard it can be for women in STEM. And before I could look I would say there's one thing we particularly wanted to do in this in this event today was talk about the really great work, research, interesting career paths and achievements of women, like all our panellists, rather than focus on how hard it can be. We discussed that too with very heavy to ask questions but I just want to reinforce that with all of you that we thought long and hard about that when we were planning this event to make sure that we didn't just predominantly talk about the difficulties but Nicola do you want to have a little bit about the STEM side of things and younger people. Yeah, so I know in the space agency we've got a real focus on skills and outreach and that that stems from a very young age all the way up to university graduates and beyond. So we go into schools and we take a space suit and we'll talk to them and we use the inspirational nature and how exciting space is to encourage a passion and excitement early on. And I know I've seen a message from Kathy Bowden on the chat and she is our one of our outreach leads so she will definitely know more than I do about if you have any questions about the specifics. But I think as a personal reflection. I think there's only so far that outreach programs can go. And I think it really boils down to the people that you trust around you so your family, your teachers. I remember having a male science teacher who I told I want I want to be an astronaut. And he was like but you're, you're from Stockport, which is south of Manchester and it's not the most affluent area. And I was like, well, what does that have to do with it? And so it's little comments like that from people that are trusted and influential on your life at that time. I think are really, really important and going back to the ballerina versus space. I would say that they are not mutually exclusive. You can, you can be a brilliant ballerina and you can be a brilliant space, policy PhD leader of your time, you know, simultaneously. So I think, I think it's about just challenging some of those ideas that it's one or the other you can be a brilliant intelligent princess. Thanks, Nikki. I know Joe wants to come in and I'm going to go to Joe but I'm also going to pose another question, which I think others might want to answer as well but Joe might have a comment from anonymous entity. I'm all for championing, championing, championing, I can't say it, young people and supporting them. But I wonder if more needs to be done for returners to the aviation industry. So I left the military serving as an engineer, I left to have a baby, but I've been out of the industry so long, I know I cannot return. Is there a way to support women being able to return to the industry later in life. So, Joe, if you want to cover the point about young girls and then maybe segue into that point and if there's anybody else who wants to answer that second question and please do. Absolutely, if for some reason my computer put me in the dark when we mentioned the returners. And I've no idea why because it hasn't suddenly got dark here in South London. And I think it's fascinating because when you look at coding clubs, and you see young people who are seven, eight, nine years old, there is no gender difference, and they love it. But something happens when they get to teenage teenage years and, and honestly, I think it boils down to our curriculum, the way we teach and stem is exciting. Everything when we talk about aviation and space. It's the most exciting fascinating thing, again irrelevant of gender but we need to put it across in a way that engages. I think that I know that there is a qualification at 16 to 18 being designed at the moment for space and aviation. And in terms of DFT part of the outreach that we're doing, notwithstanding what Nikki said is outreach only usually gets to the people who want to be reached. So again, how do we broaden the span and engage people with becoming brilliant engineers and in the United Kingdom to take us forward, because that's what we need to do. And as for that is my bugbear about, we have these amazing people who do so well, and they also are amazing and have children. And yet it's difficult to get a job afterwards how do you return and I've been incredibly impressed with the Air Force has done to improve that because certainly if you wanted to go back into space it's much easier than it was back in the day. However, I do think that, you know, some organizations may have programs but I don't know how much happens in space and aviation. So I probably knows something on that though, in your role. Yeah, I'm just just to back up is such an important point. I think the societal norms element of it. I mean, everybody here on this panel, you know, embodies how, you know, what a great career you can have in, in, in air and space and aviation and I, and I, you know, I think we will all, you know, be able to talk about what an exciting challenging rewarding career it's been. I've got so many friends who are so envious and female friends who are so envious of the job that I've had. And yet, you know, in my young years I was sort of slightly embarrassed almost you know outside of rf circles to talk about what I did I hated it whereas you know the guy next to me would go yeah I'm a pilot I fly jets you know it was it was kind of cool. We haven't quite hit that formula to make it cool for women to do this job yet. And I think challenging those societal norms is such an important thing to do and, and which is why the seeing it to be it is so important because I think until we see women do it until the teachers in the schools can start saying you know what you could do this you could because they don't understand that it can be done that it is a good career path. We won't ever start making inroads into those sort of perceptions and misconceptions about what those careers are. And, and, you know, again, you know when my in my younger years I was a firm believer in equality that's it doesn't matter who you are it's just whether you're good enough to do the job. Now that's a sort of it that's the Nirvana that's where we should be heading towards, but it's slightly naive I think if we want to wait for 100 years for that to just kind of slowly evolve and then great. But if we want to make it happen more quickly than positive action you know bring these women back you've got the talent that we've invested in to make sure that they can be those positive role models is so important. That's right. I'm going to head over to Catherine. Yeah, I think just to back up point made just now is that actually there's people that industry are looking for who have skills that wouldn't normally be a route into our sector so just talked about coding people who are brilliant at maths. All kinds of knowledge about digital. These are the kind of skill sets that people need now so when Airbus and I know Ros Royce and other companies go into schools that's one of the things we talk about is the whole different kind of scope of skill sets that you need and that really does work. Another thing that works really well, you know a lot of our graduates and apprentices go into the schools and we may always make sure that we have good diverse groups who go in. And they, they, they're intrigued to school children intrigued not only about the role of an engineer, but actually what it's like working in a big organization such as an international company like Airbus so we had a French female engineer who used to go in and the school kids in Bristol, just loved it because she would talk to them all about France and speak about different languages and different cultures so there's a whole lot of different things you can do but but going to the point about returners. Absolutely. Not to, you know, talk too much to these wonderful RAF people I'm looking at on the screen now but military personnel have such great worth ethic. You're always on time. You're very smartly turned out you know exactly what you're doing very impressive and professional. So I would encourage military personnel to look into industry and I know you do. But you know the companies like mine always looking for people, good people, and personally, I know Airbus are happy to look at returners. I've literally just recruited somebody from the aerospace sector to come and work for me in my new job. So there's a lot of transfer but maybe we used to need to use our networks a bit more and help each other. Yeah, thank you. I totally agree. For those of you who are watching, even if you're not putting a question yourself, do you have a read because some people are posting some links that you might be interested in. And I just wanted to comment on something from Kathy Bowden. It's the responsibility of each one of us to get out of STEM ambassadors and role models into schools and informal learning environments brownies etc help with their space badges. I was in my former life when I was in the Royal Air Force I was AC operation swing at Aria Valley in Anglesey, but I was also I had a second role as sparkly owl in in the local, the local brownies, and which was a good break from work one one evening a week. So these, these were low kids, mainly children of sort of local area. And although they hadn't something great airfield right beside them. Until we started talking about a badge and it was to do with aviation that the girl, most of the girls were really surprised they could be pilots. But of course they were beside an airfield where they really weren't very many women, while there were no women pilots on fast jet so I'd be instructors or students for the entire time I was there. And this was in 2009 10 and any, you know, a couple of women on the helicopter side so I totally agree, you know, that things like brownies do get those conversations going and it's really important. Moving up. There's a couple of questions about expanding diversity I'm going to put them together and see if see who would like to perhaps address them. Maybe says there seems to be emphasis on expanding diversity among pilots. And I think, you know, by, by extension, you probably in play aircrew as well since we've got a couple of weapons support systems operators, weapons systems operators. I'd be interested in your thoughts on inclusion among the many other career fields and aviation maintenance logistics airfield operations security, etc. And then I think another. Do you believe there are not initiatives for women of color in this area. I think that's an excellent question I think I'm sure the answer to most of us would be definitely not. But I'd be interested to know if any of my panelists want to make any comments on those questions. Are you going to say you know that I'm always happy to speak so I do try to hold myself back sometimes on my best behavior so I think that last one first you know we'll just look at this panel, you know, there are there is nobody of color in this panel and actually that's a travesty that we're having that. And, and I think it's really important that we understand that inclusion means taking action and talking about it and doing something about it to change that status quo to the position that we want. And to drive that to happen means that we have to work really hard at doing so and we all have to do it. And I don't know what the the answer is but certainly we need to be committed to it. Going back to the first part of the question, which, which I've now completely forgotten and gone to someone tell me what the first part was. So it was the other branches and the other sort of areas of aviation. I sort of think that we talk about the 5% because it's so shocking. I think that other parts of aviation, but I haven't got the statistics in front of me so again I don't know whether a Catherine you've got these. They certainly aren't as badly represented. They're still badly represented. And they all, I mean, I remember going to speak to Unilever once and they were telling me about in their senior management that they had 47% women and 53% men and I said, that is amazing. And they looked at me and they said, no, it's not because it's not 50%. And where, why aren't we driving at achieving 50%, not 30%, not 20%. We need to really drive forward in absolutely every way and we've just got to get behind it. Thanks. I totally agree. Sorry, were you going to come in? Yeah, no, just completely agree. I mean, diversity, it doesn't matter what sort of branch you're in in the Air Force or what aspect. It's across the board. I mean, an organisation benefits from greater diversity, diversity. You tap into, you know, stronger, you know, better talent pools if you can get into those Black, Asian and ethnic minorities. It's kind of a no-brainer. It's a strategy and it's certainly what the Air Force is driving very, very hard for. And our youth and STEM programmes, it's getting into the schools, it's trying to change the mindset, trying to change the perceptions, trying to get into the communities, exactly as they have done. I love that sort of Indian, you know, civil airline, you know, trying to make it, the families believe it's a great job and a great career. So they push their children in that direction. This is absolutely the sort of thing that we need to be doing. I'm mindful of time and we're running up against the MC event, which is 1715. So I think we're going to have to wrap it up there. This has been a great discussion and there are so many great questions and actually really interesting comments in the Q&A. So I do recommend having a quick read of them. There are some about, just to cover, to go back to that point about women of colour, our intention in Freeman is to do more on diversity and inclusion, that's women, people of colour. You know, we don't, this is a focus for our first event and we will do more events directly about women in the Air and Space Pad, but there will be other diversity events as well. And another thing there's people asking about whether, you know, there could be more of a community around this discussion. I can't answer you directly on that at the moment, but what I would say is the Freeman Air and Space Institute website, which clearly if you're here, you've managed to find at some point. Do go on there, you can sign up to our mailing list and there is also an email address on there. So if you have any suggestions or ideas and want to get in touch with us, then I'd be more than happy to hear from you. So can I thank my panelists for a very, very rich and inspiring discussion. I think, you know, what was it Jo said she had a massive grin on her face and then one of the other comments said from Claire Baker said she was grinning from ear to ear. And I think that that is a really great. Yes, we've talked about some really challenging issues and some really quite, you know, poor statistics. There are these amazing women here that are absolutely there so that others people can see can see that they are and see it to be it. I'm delighted that we're being joined by Chief of the Air Staff as Chief Marshal, Sir Mike Wigston. He's, you know, done some incredible work on diversity and inclusion. I know he's passionate about it because as soon as he heard we were doing this event, he said please could he join and please could he take part. So I'm absolutely delighted to introduce him Chief of the Air Staff, many of you know he won't need introduction but for those of you who don't, over to you Sir Mike. Thank you so much and thank you to all of the brilliant panelists this afternoon. You said the word inspiring some of the stories we've heard some of the examples and some of the sobering stories as well which which highlights importance of having this discussion and sharing this discussion. So some of you will know that I actually joined the Air Force over 30 years ago now with Joe Salter and we went through the first part of our of our career together and Joe absolutely was a trailblazer, a trailblazing woman going through fast jet pilot training all the way to the to the front line. And at the time there were a lot of women coming through. And I look now at the senior leadership in the Royal Air Force and I asked where is Joe Salter, where are all of the other women who joined over 30 years ago and why is why is Soraya the only air crew, Air Commodore, who's a woman. And that's not just an air crew issue actually everywhere you look across the Air Force we've got an unlevel playing field whether it's the amount of time that women stay in the service, the tapering of the rank structure as you work your way up through the rank structure. Even things like honours and awards it's not a level playing field. And there are a number of reasons for that and there's a number of reasons why you know that the surface today. And they include everything from the institutional constraints that because it's an organisation that's designed by men and equipped by men, all the way through to the cultures and behaviours. There's an element of confidence I think and role models and the part that role models play in confidence. There's an element of networking and that's why women in defence and the women in aviation and aerospace grouping is so important in creating these networks. And there is an element around around parenthood and motherhood in particular and all of these things. Well, if you can't do something about them or can't attempt to do something about them when you're chief of the air staff then then then then you've got to have a pretty good reason why not. And so these are all things that I'm determined to get after as as chief and whilst none of them are easy they're all achievable and and there are all things that we are moving forward on whether it's flexible service around parenting for men and flexible service for parenting for men and women and making that culturally acceptable whether it's around cultures and behaviours whether it's around rejoiners and bringing people back in. Those are all things that we're we're getting after and bit by bit we're moving the dial because the numbers are far from good. We've got a long way to go both on gender and ethnic diversity and we've got a lot of things to change. So, so in that note there is work to be done. There's a lot to be talked about and and I was delighted and really interested here, everything that that everybody had to say and all I would say to you is just keep that conversation going and and let's just keep moving the dial and moving this moving this forward. And on that on that final note and on that rejoining note I would just say that the Royal Air Force is recruiting and and if any of you are interested, then you know where to find me. Sophie, thank you very much. Thank you so much. So Mike, it's a delight to have you with us. And, you know, you are you are setting the standards and giving the RAF really ambitious targets for recruitment for 2030 and I really admire and appreciate that. So it's it's for me with we're a minute away from the end of the event to just really say thank you particularly obviously to the many, many of you who joined us in the audience and the comments and questions and suggestions in the Q&A area, how people could get involved with different organizations and different activities. Then of course, women in aviation and aerospace charter Victoria joining us, and I'm looking forward to our relationship going forward with the Freeman Air and Space Institute. And finally, our fantastic speakers, panellists as I say, you know, there's a grinning from it is one of the nicest things I've had put in the chat box for an event. And, you know, it's inspirational to hear from you all. I, you know, I've spoken to all know you all some of you I've known for 30 years or so. But it's just great to have you here. You are. And this is a message I really want to get across the tip of a large and growing iceberg. There are so many women in the air and space sector now, not enough by any means. Actually, we could have run event with, with, you know, scores and scores of people. So you've been brilliant. And I hope you won't mind me in saying that you're also representative of a whole lot more women that are out there that we know are doing really impressive work. So thank you. And thank you, of course, to Chief of the Air Staff for his final comments. And I am going to draw close there. I just want to mention that we have a next event on the integrated review in conversation with our Chief Marshal, Andrew Turner, who's Deputy Commander Capability for the Air Force. He's going to be reflecting on the integrated review. And I understand that you can sign up on our website right now. So if you're ringing off in a second, you could just go straight to the website and do that. And yeah, as I say, please keep involved with us and we will be running more events, hopefully in person with you later in the year. Very many thanks. Have a lovely evening.