 Hello and welcome to the Donahue Group. We're glad you're joining us for a half an hour of conversation on the topical issues of the day. We're four interested citizens living in Sheboygan County and joining me today, Cal Potter, Tom Paneski, Ken Risto, and I'm the namesake of the group, Mary Lynn Donahue. And we're here on a wonderful, lovely summer afternoon and it just makes you want to play hooky and so here we are just taking time out from our regular jobs and talking about some interesting issues on the local level. Of course, cannot really go on without talking about the recall. A citizens group has initiated a recall petition and I don't believe as of our last taping that had actually been filed with the clerk's office, if memory serves me correctly. It has been, it's my understanding that the group has until September 5th, if I'm not mistaken, to gather 4,000 plus I think 4,013 signatures. There was a recent change in the law that reduces the number of signatures that has to be obtained and also increases the length of time from 30 to 60 days, which is quite a benefit to them. Well, is it? I'm not doubling the time, previous initiatives around the state have oftentimes failed because I couldn't get the percentage of the gubernatorial vote within that 30-day window. Right. Part of it, though, I would suggest, I don't know, that at a certain point people tend to run out of steam, that it becomes old news. I think that a recall tends to succeed where there's a flash issue and people are really steamed up and there's, you know, you have people who in a very short period of time have to accomplish a big task. I'm just wondering. I have no idea. I mean, it may be of great advantage to the recall group to have it go 60 days, but if you just kind of run out of steam and people just aren't so interested anymore, I don't know. It's possible. The other possibility, of course, is they tried certain mechanisms against signatures and then they have also several weeks to regroup and decide a new strategy. That's true. As we tape this, there's an article in the local paper talking about a strategy to go door-to-door. Apparently, maybe it wasn't as extensively planned to do that. And so now they're looking at this as an option to get the signatures they supposedly need. Yeah. And it's interesting. And it's also, I think, interesting how it's played out in the community. What is your sense of, what are you hearing? Most people, I know there's been real efforts on the part of some of the recall people to try to articulate what's the problem. And yet when I'm talking with folks at the Piggly Wiggly or wherever, they don't really still have a sense of what is the burning issue. The mayor's race, it was Sheridan Park, or it's, you know, some people's minds there was the issue of the police station. There's something that, when they look at the way the positions have been articulated so far in the press or if one's listening to WHBL or whatever it might be, I don't think people are walking away, especially maybe because it's summer and everybody's busy, you know, on with their lives. They really don't know what this is about, you know. And I think Mayor Perez has done a pretty good job as his supporters saying, look at the people who are running this. They all lost elections, you know, get over it. Let's move on. And then when you layer on top of that, of course, the racial charges and the stuff that was on the one particular website, right now I think it's going to be very difficult for them to get the signatures. That's what I think. I don't hear much. I don't see much either. I mean, occasionally drive by, you see a little sign recall petition here and a person sitting in a chair holding, you know, occasionally I hear that, you know, some city officials are not officials, but some city employees off duty are circulating petitions and some people take objection to that. But the fact that today's newspaper article says, you know, they're going to go door to door and people are a little reluctant when they encounter them to sign a petition. I'm not, you know, just means I think they're, like you said, they're running out of steam and there is no well-defined, why should I sign the petition? What's the well-defined issue that I could have reason to sign the petition for? I think what's going to happen too is, you know, a lot of people are saying if it's just all these sort of policy differences, this is why we have elections and there will be an election coming up in a few years and if we're unhappy we can throw the guy out. And now I think what's going to happen too is as it's articulated that we're going to be spending a certain amount of money for a recall election, I think there's people are going to swing even more in that direction. Why are we spending this kind of money on an election that basically is perceived as personality differences, not substantive policy issues? And I don't think, I don't see it happening. I think there's a difference between what the intended reason for a recall is and what the statutes actually say. I remember in the mid-70s we had an extensive debate in creating the statutes very much as the way they are today. And the legislative debate at that time was whether we should put specific crimes and activities in the statutes as basis for the recall. But the legislature being subject to recall I think didn't want to paint themselves as being sort of protecting their own hide in their own back. So they kept it rather nebulous and focused in the process of getting the recall started and in place. And so I think though in practice many people have internalized, and I remember the debate at that time was we can throw, there are justifiable reasons to throw people out of office if they're involved in breaking the law or embezzlement or whatever would happen to be a moral crime of some type, clearly you want the bum out. But if you're talking about decisions, which wouldn't be a decision if there wasn't more than one point of view, which are commonly debated in the political arena, people expect debate. That's what politics is all about and there are differences between liberals and conservatives and we accept that. And at what point do you enact then or put in place the recall petition when indeed politics day to day is such a contentious arena? So I think there are people who are probably hashing over in their mind. Again, the statutes allow us to do this, but what is the practical application? And what was the real intent in placing in the statutes a recall statute? I think there's someone in place looking to run again if they should get 4,013 signatures. So, like you said, got some people who were disgruntled because they lost. Well, the other day at breakfast, I saw a couple of business folks sitting with a former mayor down at breakfast, they came in together and I thought, maybe they're talking about Willie Rudd or not. And I asked one of the businessmen afterwards, so I saw him a little later at another time, were you guys talking about the recall, he said? Yep, yep, and one person thinks they're not going to get the 4,000 signatures and the other person thinks they will get it, so I don't know. It's most interesting. Just before the law was changed, the recall group would have needed about 6,000 signatures, which is about the number of people who voted for Mayor Shram in the last election, I think, I may have that wrong. But in any event, it is pretty hard. So, we can take an informal poll among ourselves, maybe a little pool and just throw in a penny each and see what the result is. I don't know if they're going to get them or not. It isn't a lot, if you really went door to door of all the voters to get that many signatures, when people oftentimes are just ticked off at politicians and government. I mean, they may not like George Bush, they may not like the governor, they may not like whoever, and so when somebody comes to the door and says, I'd like you to cast a vote against the way things are going today, there are people who will sign just out of disgust about politicians. You know, when you look at the positive rating of Congress, what is it down to about 30% something of that nature? And Bush's numbers are so low, you know, I wouldn't down. I'm up to 40 now. I'm up to 40, yeah, I was always 33 and I was one of the 33, but now I'm one of the 40. So it will be interesting to see how much frustration on government comes in, how many people really look at this and say, this is not sort of an impeachable offense by anybody. We shouldn't proceed. I think that's how most people perceive it. They may not use language like that, but you have to have a very, very good reason to throw somebody up before the term of office. And I don't think those folks have made that case. I mean, I know that there was an article in the Shibuya and I will press a couple of weeks back at the time of this taping where Barb Tashinsky tried to lay that case out. And I think it was, I think, I just didn't think the case was made for most people that's going to persuade them to do that. So they might get the signatures, but I will tell you, I think, that if this plays out as a SRAM-Perez rerun, then people are going to say, then it's going to be a backlash and Perez is going to win big. Because if it's just, if we're just having an election and spending X number of dollars to do a rerun, if that's the best the opponents can do, that's one's going to end up with a mandate, which is, you know, it's going to play out in a way that they don't really, they're going to rule the day that they went down this road. Although elections are very expensive and time consuming and distracting from, you know, you have four years in office and if you're spending three or four or five or six months in your second year rerunning, I think it can be pretty tough. So it will be interesting to see how it plays out, but... And the effect on the community, if it does play out. I had a gentleman called me who was in favor of the recall and he just wanted to know my take on it. Oh, okay. And I said, I can tell you one thing that this is not going to be a positive creation of a positive arena in which city business ought to be done or will be done because not only is it now you're going to have the expansion, the contention of another election, then you've got whoever loses is probably still going to be ticked off and you've just kind of replaying this thing over and over who doesn't like who for what reason. And in the meantime months are passing when the city ought to be attending to a new play station or whatever it happened to be. So I said, I didn't think that anything is going to be emotionally or image-wise gained by this no matter who wins out because it's just not a positive going forward with the business of doing the people's work. And there's certain things that just aren't going to change. I can see why city employees are unhappy. Things don't look good. And I don't think that's mayor's fault, but no matter who is in office, there simply is just not going to be the money available to do the things that city employees would like to see in terms of wage and benefit increases. I mean, it's just not going to happen at least if it does happen, there are going to be changes in other places, whether they're layoffs or wherever their money can be found. It is not a happy day to be a city employee. It just isn't, from what I can see, it doesn't make any difference if it's the mayor, if it's Mayor Perez, if it's Mayor Shram or whoever might be out there running. There's not a lot of money unless there is a pitch to raise taxes to cover benefits and so forth. I think the pie is pretty stable. And I don't know, people are frustrated. I might not say it's not a happy day. I wouldn't say it's not a happy day to be a city employee. I think they get paid reasonably well and they have good benefits. So I think it's, you know, they got pretty secure in their position. And I think I got a pretty good work condition. So just that the raise won't be there. Right, exactly, exactly. But I mean, that's the source of the unhappiness and there is no money to do it with. And it doesn't make any difference who your mayor is or who your city council is. It makes a difference who your state legislators are because I think so much of the money comes of our funds, 40% of our city funds come from the state unless there is a mood to raise taxes. And I think the referenda that we saw in April were a resounding decision from voters to say, no, we don't wanna pay any more taxes. Even if it's for really good causes, we just don't wanna do it anymore. So, well, enough said on the recall, the saga now has gone past, gone with the wind and is now reaching the epic proportions of war and peace, the police station. The saga, the saga continues. Well, gone with the wind is about 700 pages and war and peace is about 900 pages. So where I think, depending on how tiny the print is. Okay, we're about there. I'm amazed, the back and forth on the North 23rd Street site, on the Vandervaart site. What are your thoughts? I just don't, it doesn't appear that there's much forward movement unless I'm missing that. Isn't it settled? It's the 23rd Street site. I didn't think, why are we even discussing the Vandervaart? I thought it was settled. It's just, how much you're gonna pay the county? Well, and how big it's going to be. Yeah, oh, and how big. Whether it's gonna be a seven or 11 or 15 or a million dollar facility. Oh, I don't think that North 23rd Street site is settled by any means. Oh, really? Okay. Well, it depends on, I mean, the city made an offer to the county that isn't as good as the offer was, you know, a couple years back. And I have no idea what the county reaction is going to be if there's gonna be a counter offer. And all of a sudden, there does seem to be some energy for the Vandervaart property. Well, and Vandervaart's changed their position as well. So you've got a constantly moving target here. You've got the county changing the numbers and their perspective. And then you have, you've got that little game going on. And then you've got Vandervaart saying, well, maybe we won't, we won't. Originally they said, the city had it by the whole lot or the whole site or whatever. And now there's a hinting around that perhaps there might be some room to negotiate there. So you've got that changing the numbers. And then you've got this notion of, well, this is what kind of police department we want, but then that's way over budget. So now we're trying to reduce the square footage. And so you really have all these variables flying around. So it's very difficult in that kind of environment to make an informed and an important decision. And I don't, I'm not envious of the common council. And I guess we to the last episode, we've got different council members who've got some different perspectives as well. And those have to be heard. They've just been recently elected, so. And again, there's no money. We're talking about very finite financial resources and the city is very near. It's a self-imposed budget or debt limit rather. But nonetheless, we're just bouncing right up on the top of it. And I don't know when and how and if. And it's just very interesting to me. Has there ever been a building project like this in the city that has, I don't see it, or I can't think in my memory, that has generated this much controversy and. I mean, I was on the council when they were planning to build Mead Public Library. Okay. And it was a big cost initially. And, but there wasn't a question about the site. And they were able to pare the cost down, I don't know, from five or from seven million to something like four million. And then they built it. But I, but the site, I guess, was fairly much already selected. About the only discussion I recall, Tom, was, you know, why are we taking a piece of prime commercial real estate and taking it off the tax rolls? But we're, you know, obviously you want a library that's somewhat centrally located for the citizen. So where, where would it have gone? Well, the one thing it would appear is that the city hall site for the police station is probably a dead letter. And I, from my perspective, I think that's a good thing. It, maybe I just wasn't understanding where it was going to fit. But my goodness, that just is a tiny little site. And I just didn't quite see how that, how that would work out. So. I think the 23rd Street site, if I think the place can play a leadership role in this by realizing that the taxpayers are just going to pay so much for a police station that the Cadillac is not going to be purchased. And that they ought to design it and build it with expansion in mind. If maybe they need an additional garage space some days for mechanics or whatever. At least that will be a facility that won't be as expensive, but they can get the square footage up later on. So, you know, you can kind of finesse this. I think it's about the time when everybody should be getting together to start talking about that. Maybe the taxpayers will buy 11 million or seven million or whatever it happens to be. And it may not meet the police needs. Not what they deserve and not what they need, but build on at a time when maybe things are a little cooler, I guess, in the political arena. Well, I'm sure we'll be sitting here with the Christmas tree in the corner. Corner. And having moved beyond war and peace. Do we have the option what the school system did? Go to a referendum and authorize the bonding issue like the school did for the building of the 2G. That's an option the city has? From my perspective, that's a terrific idea because it is a major capital investment. I do think we tend to overuse referenda. And people are elected to make hard decisions and I don't think we should necessarily take that away. But when something really seems to have grabbed the attention of the public, well, we talked about this with the nursing homes. I mean, clearly it's a very big emotional issue for residents of the county as to whether we should operate nursing homes. Well, I think it's kind of an emotional or it's a big decision if not emotional. It's a matter of great concern to citizens. I think, as I've always said, nearly everybody that I talk to, myself included, thinks we need a new police station. The location now is antiquated. But how much do you want to spend? And I think that there have been three levels put out and why not put it to a vote and put it on the November ballot? Then it's a clear direction to the council. Bonding can go ahead because it's gonna have to anyway, I think, and then the issue gets resolved. It's a thought, but I'm sure we'll have many more opportunities to talk about this as time goes on. Well, they don't have the options the county has. You know, the county we're nursing home was clearly people didn't want to raise their taxes for, but they're in support of nursing homes. So what the county's doing is sort of looking at the middle ground. Are there any buyers for these facilities? And it seems there are. It's a very entrepreneurial approach. And I think there's nothing wrong with grafting entrepreneurial concepts into government. It's never a perfect match. And there are a lot of differences. You know, some private business people think, well, if we just ran government like private business, it'd be just fine. Well, no, I mean, they're certainly different. They're different structures, different sources of money and so forth. But there's nothing wrong with an entrepreneurial spirit. And I think the county has been showing that with the nursing homes. And you just hope that whoever buys continues to pay decent wages and benefits to its workers. Because I think that's pretty important. That's what exactly won't happen, will not happen. Yeah, it almost can't. You know, there's a couple, the Milwaukee Journal sent in laws yesterday, or was it, I'm sorry, on Sunday, was talking about a study that was done saying that private healthcare facilities for the elderly don't provide the care that publicly funded ones do. So I'm more pessimistic. I'm hoping too, but typically what happens is that people that come in will normally break the union or they'll fire everybody and make everybody reapply and they'll be paid far less than what they're being paid right now. And that's how you make money. That's how you make these things work. I mean, that's the pattern in privatization where counties in the South, and the South especially, have turned over facilities, prisons, and a variety of other public institutions. And when they've done the studies, the cost savings come by ratcheting down the wages and benefits of the employees. We, as we did at the district, when we got rid of a large number of custodians, and now we have what we call contract cleaners. And they're working at minimum wage, they're entry level jobs. They're mostly folks that don't speak English. The ones that clean my room, classroom at South, certainly don't speak English. And they do okay work. Occasionally you get some who really do really, really well and then there's some who really don't do badly. But if you look at the cleanliness of the schools are not what they used to be. They don't have the ownership that somebody would. And there's a lot of rotation. And there's a lot of turnover in those staff. But you know, we saved money at one level, but on another level we're. You sacrificed. Yeah, you know, I got dust buddies in the corner of my classroom the size of Idaho. Well, you know, that's just, I wouldn't have seen that when I began my teaching career and George Christus, God, you know, somewhere out there in our listening audience, George Christus cleaned my room and he did it. And it was a good, that room was clean. He took pride in that because that was his school. Bring your own vacuum cleaner. Yeah. Well, in any event. We go back to the 1880s and I can haul buckets of charcoal in too. Yeah. The heat going in the stove. Exactly. We only have a couple minutes left before we. Change the light bulb. Yeah. This interesting philosophical discussion on private education. You clean your office lately, Marilyn? I do. We actually have a little handheld fact because our cleaning folks don't get under the desk and you know, the things that get under the mats. And I could go on, but I shan't. We'll go on and talk about local elections because we just have a couple of minutes. Not a whole lot of great energy and interest in locally. Van Akron versus Jose and Ulick versus Libam. Terry Van Akron is being challenged by Job Jose, the Bishop's son, a smart guy. What do you think? He was in the parade, the 4th of July parade. I always look to see whose entourage looks better. And Job, Mr. Jose had obviously put some time and effort into his entourage in the parade. It's pretty early, I had, I mean, he was a student of mine. Yeah, I had him too. And you had him too, yeah. He was a good kid. Yeah. He does reflect a little bit of his father's, he's an eccentric a little bit. Sure. And it was a long time ago. People mature, they grew up and they mature. I know that Job felt when I had him that the machines that we cast our ballots on the mechanical machines in those days were manipulated and rigged to get the outcomes that certainly his father didn't like to see. But, you know, he was young and we'll see. It is kind of interesting seeing Libam Jose signs together on lawns. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you'd have told me three years ago when I've seen that. I would have said, well, that's really kind of interesting. So I don't know if they're running as a ticket, but I doubt it. And the, yeah, I doubt it too, but the- Has he been a Registry Republican? Oh yes. I didn't know. I just thought he was running, so there's no primary at this point. No, I believe he's running as a Republican and he's a very conservative Republican, cherishing all those Republican values that the Tom is here to talk about, and that, no, I'm just kidding, but it is my understanding that he's- He's running as a Republican. Okay, okay. Conservative, you know, pro-life, just very, very conservative. Van Akron probably doesn't have too much to worry about. I don't think so. It's a good name politically in the town. It's also, he's not perceived as a flaming liberal Democrat, am I right? Well, it's not. And so, so where's- He changes his vote a lot, though. Where's he going to be vulnerable, I guess. This is not your Kerry Conceal portion, I suppose. I guess I was a little out there on that. I think you're right, and I'll look for his live ham. Of course, it's the sign wars have started. Joe's got some big signs up, you know, with plastic pipes, and I understand he's doing doors. He knocked on- That's good for him, good for him. My brother's door, and so- I knocked on a colleague's a mine door, a mine door yesterday. So he's working hard. He's also taking his morning jogs to drop off campaign literature too. A friend of mine who was, I saw Joe running, literally running, and then leaving campaign literature as he's running down Mill Road. So Joe's running in both senses. Well, I think, though, when you stop like that, you're aerobic. Yeah, that's how I help him. He compares the aerobic- But he's been around. I mean, I saw him out at the Plymouth Fourth of July, well, it wasn't Fourth of July, but the Plymouth Fireworks, which was several days later. I saw him there, and- Well, it'd be interesting- Grand Tomb and Heritage, where else? I saw him someplace else. I thought he was kind of tracker. I thought he was maybe stalking me for a minute. Yeah, well, we're gonna end on that happy note, but we'll have more time to talk about it. Thanks, it's been enjoyable. Thank you.