 I think we'll start. Welcome to this panel discussion on Indigenous languages, cultures, and ways of knowing. Opening up opportunities with OER. Before we get into it, I just wanted to give a brief introduction to who I am and why I am here. So my name is Julianne Grenley. I work with ICDE, the International Council for Open and Distance Education. We are the oldest and leading membership association for Open and Flexible Distance Education. We are turning 85 years old this year. So we've been in the business for quite a while. We are now learning as much as we can about the intersection between OER and open education and Indigenous languages, cultures, communities, and ways of knowing. Quickly, just wanted to mention that we have a conference coming up in November. You can see that also on our website, ICDE.org. And one coming up after that in June. You can become a member. I will leave it like that. And not to forget that you might have heard me or my colleagues talk that I'm also the coordinator of the European Network for OER, the young coordinate work. All right. So back to why we are here. Today we have a panel. We are going to have a conversation. We invite questions from you all on this topic. We're asking why are we talking about this? This room probably we all agree. This is an important thing to talk about and to learn more about. We know we have the UNESCO OER recommendation. Some of it is outlined in there. We are obviously dealing with ASDG4, not to mention everything in these Sustainable Development Goals. And the fact that we are currently in the international decade of Indigenous languages. So that is the kind of backstory. And I'm not going to delve into any of it, rather to go in and have this conversation with the panelists. There's six people. My name is there, but I am just here to facilitate the conversation with all the humility in the world. I'm not an Indigenous person and I do not represent anything, but I will facilitate the conversation. There will be five panelists in total. Three of them are here. Two of them are currently presenting in a different room and they will join us when they can. My Greta Daiyu Yuzin is here. So we will start there. And I will let you introduce yourself and maybe a little bit about the context of why you are a part of this conversation today. So start with me. Hello everyone. Good afternoon. I'm Daiyu from Taiwan. So probably some of you heard of my name story, but at the beginning, maybe you're short-term memory for me. My name is based on my father. He think I was a blossom flower on mountain hills. So that was my name in Mandarin meaning. And today, me and my colleague Yuxing Wang, we were introduced Taiwan Indigenous culture a little bit. So I return the time to her right now. Okay. Hello everyone. I'm Yuxing Wang. I'm from Taiwan as well. And I'm holding a PhD. So I'm done my teaching for quite a long time, nearly 20 years. In the same time that Yuxing is my Mandarin name, so I got the others names because I'm Taiwan Indigenous people. So I got quite a lot of names. So you can see the poster got my another name is called Danibu. And I follow my grandmother's name, Bawu. So I got several names. And I will tell the story to you if you have time. Now, okay. I just introduce myself first and will share my story to you. Thank you. Okay. I'm Margrethe Treisman. I'm coming from Norway and I'm the Educational Manager of the Norwegian Digital Learning Arena which is a huge repository owned by the Norwegian Counties that provide OER for a secondary education in Norway. So many, including myself, think if you look at the panel, you think you're looking at experts. I'm not an expert in this area of Indigenous languages at all or Indigenous culture, Indigenous resources. But I know quite a lot about OERs. And the last few years, my repository has collaborated with the northernmost counties of Norway, providing some resources for the Sami population in Norway, especially in foreign language. Southern Sami, especially as a foreign language, is what we have most resources for. So it's a foreign language because of the language loss that happened during the 20th century, especially 19th, 20th century. So I can tell you a bit more about that later on. Thank you. So we have some questions lined up for the panelists and if you want to add to them, raise your hand and we'll make this an interactive conversation. We will start with the wider and more open-ended question. What does opening up education with OER mean for the preservation, promotion, and sharing of Indigenous languages, cultures, and knowledge systems? And I invite the panelists to share from their experience within their work towards this question. And if I may, starts from Taiwan. Okay. Hello again. Well, I have around seven years of doing Taiwan Indigenous culture digital cochlear. So from my experience, I was always wondering what is open meaning? Is it supposed to be a transform into the digital world? We make the Indigenous culture like a museum just turning to like a video version or supposed to be open in mind, truly embrace the culture and the language. Because when I was making all this curriculum, we're still using another language to transform the culture and the stories. And most of the people, even from my land, doesn't know really how many groups in our country and what is happening, the true reality they stand in front. So even from now, we still have many things to struggle with and need to face it. So I think open and all the preservation, not just doing at the oral presentation, we still need to more action about it and truly devotion into these things because we are facing a human racist issues. That's what I know. It's kind of heavy, but I'm telling this. What an inspect. Thank you. Do you want to add to that? It's a little bit sad to talking about this. It's a huge question. It is a huge question. And I think then I just I can tell you a bit about the Norwegian context of where we are because in Norway, education is free and education material is also free. So so that the cost argument of open resources is not valid actually, because for the students, it's the same or for the pupils, it's the same. Who provides the material. But I think that our model where we engage teachers from the upper secondary schools to come and work with us as a form of succumbent for a period of time and they keep their pay and they stay at their school. So when I say come and work with us, it's not physical, but they start working with us digitally. We are all over Norway and they stay at their school. They stay in their communities and they get the same pay as they do for teaching, making resources. So in a situation where there is a shortage of Sámi teachers and we don't want them to leave their schools, that would be a catastrophe if they did that. So we want them to stay in their schools. This model, we think could be a good model for providing resources in Sámi subjects or Sámi languages. We could collaborate with the teachers in that way. So I think that is the strength of our model and for OER as well as all the capacity building that happens if the teachers are in charge of their own resources, are in charge of making them, sharing them with each other and also putting them on our platform where they are open and free to absolutely everyone. So also adults and anyone who wants to educate themselves can access them there. So I think capacity building is a key word here. Now you made a reference and I know that I'm not going to make the right reference here, but you started talking about open and how often we are related that to digital. We're digitalizing educational materials and then you use the word museum. Yeah. Do you want to elaborate a little bit on what that means to you? It's another sad story because in Taiwan we've been colonized for several years, even for now, transformed from different countries, Japan's to a KMT and to a new governance situation and most of the scholars, I'm sorry, there are many scholars, anthologies, historians, they come to serve us and make us like a sculpture or animals to be researched and put us like to a museum to be observed. So even for now, there are so many research about us, about our culture, they don't even ask about it. They just interact at their daily life and rip all the platform to express themselves and we don't really get to know them but actual or face-to-face, they just interpret them and make the academic system, I'm sorry, I was kind of quite emotional, but most of the Taiwanese doing indigenous research make their own status based on them, but they don't give them back to the dessert. They're just using them to establish themselves and that is a sad fact in our society right now but compared to the other side, indigenous don't have the academic way to do that because we don't acknowledge. We live in a society built by the education was from the colonizer and they dominated us. We're using the language so and can we ask, does any of them know our language or know our mother tongue language or can they do the things we do? Can they survive in the wilderness with us together without any electricity or any water and found in food by themselves? No, they can't. They don't even know any land or plants on our Taiwan lands, their name, they just need to Google it or use some app to search, leave and find the actual name in English or in Mandarin but they don't know the real name from our community indigenous way. So this kind of dilemma, they're using us to establish themselves but indigenous people still being oppressed since right now? Another heavy issue. I'm sorry, I just say another sad story. My colleague will go into cry so I probably will become more funny right now. Talk about more interesting, how they do research about us. I think it's an interesting perspective because you're talking about OER or the resources being about the indigenous community rather than for. The example that, or the Sami resources that are being developed in NDLA I know are being created for Sami students. And also by Sami teachers. And then you mentioned there's maybe, there's a resource gap, not only in you saying there's a capacity building element when NDLA enters and works with the Sami teachers to develop resources but also there's an issue with the fact that there might not be enough teachers. Yes. Correct? Yes, that is true. And it's also an issue with resources and where they are in the different systems. So the Sami parliament, we have a Sami parliament in Norway that deals with Sami issues. So they have the money for learning resources and the main responsibility of providing learning resources. But then you have the counties that is our employees or employers and they have a responsibility for upper secondary pupils. So they will also have the responsibility for the Sami upper secondary pupils, at least most of them. But there are very little collaboration between these two bodies of, different bodies of government. So while the Sami parliament has the main responsibility for providing resources, they would much rather prefer to spend their money on a very small and vulnerable Sami publishing industry and that is really, I understand that completely. But it's not enough, it goes too slow, little is done and everything is about capacity. There are so few people being able to do this work. And we really would like to do more but there is, as I said, very little collaboration between the Sami parliament and the counties. So I hope that will change this year, in June this year, Norway had its truth and reconciliation report delivered to the Norwegian parliament, the first of June. And now it's been worked on in our parliament. They are having it now and discussing it. And I am very, a bit nervous but also very excited to see what comes out of it and what kind of advice, what kind of, if there are any musts in that report when it comes out of the parliament and if that could be something about collaboration and providing more resources, it would be great, I think. Because it's in the report, of course that is important, but then there is practice. So we don't know quite what will happen. And just to check these Sami publishers, they are not applying open licenses to materials, are they? Sorry. Are the Sami publishers at any means open? No, they're quite traditional, yeah. And provide mostly textbooks that are in the traditional publishing, while doing things with, yeah, not open. So we're talking about the opportunity space, but also the challenges, clearly, with opening up education with OER. Or we're talking, and we've highlighted the words of preservation, promotion, and sharing. And sometimes maybe that doesn't feel like the right question to ask. You're talking about how maybe it is more of the promotion bit that it has been used for. Do you have any examples or thoughts around the sharing or even just the preservation of knowledge and languages? Something that doesn't just feel cultured and not for language, because we use Mandarin to do that. So that's a little bit of a shame to do that. But use Mandarin can promote the culture to everyone who know Mandarin. But for Indigenous people, not really, because when you use Mandarin to talking about a philosophy about Indigenous people, that's totally different. But we try, trying to do that. For my role, I'm doing artwork. I'm doing all kinds of creation. I teach art, so there's another language to do that. It's through the art, you will know something maybe the Mandarin or the language cannot do. Yes, so that's what I want to say. Not just the language. Okay, at what point does it become OERs for the students themselves? We are talking, you know, we hear examples of the challenges between, you know, who should be developing resources for some students in Norway and whether it should be publishers. And we've seen the keynote this morning and we're talking about public funds for public good. And then the examples from Taiwan. Does it feel like the opportunities are there? And what does that look like in Taiwan? Now we are doing that. We are the first indigenous, we are the first university who had indigenous studies, so that was the first step. And we also have the first indigenous online courses. And while we're doing that, we also give the platform to the indigenous people use their own languages to explain themselves. So on my curriculum, I always use double subtitles. I don't use Mandarin just enough. I ask them to use the language to say all the things and ask them to try to translate by themselves. So there will be no inter-teparations or misunderstanding about the culture of things. And also I will ask about what they are facing right now, not just talk about past, because more people are interested in how the traditional life is. We are living in 21st century. And things change fast, even AI coming. Indigenous students can also learn AI with cultures. So later we will share some of our group work for everyone in this section. There is an AR postcard we made it on the table. So everyone is free to have... If you like it, you can... Yeah, and the indigenous clothing in Taiwan also have different groups. And we choose four of them are a little bit easier for us to do it in a 3D way. So if you like it, and maybe later you can grab the thing from Taiwan, a little small token for everyone, so that people can know about our Taiwan indigenous. Thank you. Thank you. The translation, I think it's an opportunity that we talk about often with OER. So we have an opportunity to translate, localize, adapt. And then there's the technology bit of it. So there's AI in the versions of ways of doing that. And I know that I have had a conversation with you, Magreta, about translations into Sami. I mean, would you mind telling us a little bit what you told me about that? Well, first of all, translations are... It's both good and not good because, of course, you have to provide context. You have to provide the right context. So we are in the process of making a science subject in Sami, in northern Sami, and the teachers working with it. I feel like I'm always talking about the challenges and not the good things about this. But, okay. So it turned out to be mostly translation of the science subject that we had earlier on. So these Sami's teachers translated it. And it's correct according to the curriculum for the Sami students. So it's not left out anything, but the context which would make it a really good learning, or good learning resources with some films, some pictures from Sami areas, good examples of Sami ways of life, and so on and so on. There was no time, there was no resources, but we are not giving up on it. So I hope one day we will have that subject where we will replace films and pictures and make it a better subject. But you were asking, I think you were talking about translation and language robots and things like that. I think I was talking about a robot indeed. Well, there is a robot that they have been working with at the University of Tromsø for a few years. And we were kind of naive and asked them, well, why can't we just translate everything from Norwegian and into Northern Sami? And it will go like that. And of course we'll have some Sami teachers look at it afterwards that it's correct and so on and so on. But it's not good enough yet. So it doesn't translate very good or very well from Sami to Norwegian. It translates well between the Sami languages. And there was one interesting thing that the researcher at the university told me. She said, I would rather have them read Norwegian in school than another article in Bad Sami. So we have to wait a bit. But now, okay, we know what's happening with AI and the last thing we heard that it doesn't make sense in Sami yet, but there is every reason to think that that will move quite fast. So, and I have no scruples in making resources with that kind of technology, but then again, context, context, context. We have to use humans to provide the context, right? And I might get a good resource. It sounds like the argument is very well there for making sure that once it is in Sami and the translation models actually work pretty well between the Sami languages. As long as it's openly licensed, the opportunity to share that across is much higher, even still. Johanna, do you wanna join us? So you remember there was two missing? You'll show up. So this is Johanna Funk from Australia and I'll let her introduce herself. We are, and then you are on the hot seat, so. Yes, I'm a lecturer of cultural knowledges and teacher education at Charles Darwin University in Northern Australia on Learakea Country. Saltwater people live there. I wanna acknowledge that that was and always will be Aboriginal land. Just take a minute to say that. I've been doing open educational practices with Indigenous education and workforce development for my PhD in 2020. And since then, I've started to work more so with Indigenous senior colleagues on research projects to enhance and improve pathways for teacher education. Indigenous teacher pathways from assistant teachers into the Bachelor of Education as well as embedding Indigenous knowledges in the higher education curriculum across the university. So not necessarily decolonization or indigenization, but embedding. So we started that project just recently and I spent some time at Windsor University with some good colleagues out there because they have some interesting processes to do that. So we're doing some exchange. And we are on the main question. So we are asking for some reflections on what opening up education using OER could mean for the preservation, promotion and sharing of Indigenous languages, cultures and knowledge systems. And we have heard a little bit from Norway and from Taiwan. Perhaps we can also hear from Australia straight after Gino introduces himself as the final representative in this panel. I'm going to go back to the slide with the names. Welcome, Gino. Thanks, Julian. Do you want to do a quick introduction? Are you? You. Oh, hi. Hi, everyone. Sorry for being late. I literally just presented opposite. Yeah, my name's Gino Fransman. I am from South Africa. Like it says there, I'm the project leader of the Open Ed Influencers, which is a student-driven advocacy project which enables skills development while they engage with open. Yeah. Gino is also a winner of the OE Global Emerging Leader Award. To be celebrated. Thank you. So Johanna and Gino, we're asking the question, what is opening up education with OER mean for preservation, promotion and sharing of indigenous languages, cultures and knowledge systems? So I worked at a research institute at CDU for the first five years that I was there called Northern Institute. It does a lot of really beautiful public policy projects. And one of those projects that my friend was involved in was called the Living Archive of Aboriginal Languages. And it was an open resource, but it also did what it could before CC licenses became more common in Australia. It also made sure that it followed cultural permission protocols to not misuse. So there was kind of like a disclaimer and a pop-up window that said, this is what this resource is for. It's now cataloged in the museum and archives of the Northern Territory. So if you look up LAAL at CDU, it might be an interesting thing. This was a project that digitized a lot of bilingual texts that were produced in schools, in the Northern Territory and remote communities in I think 35 different languages. And that was the bilingual era in the Northern Territory ended at the late 90s, but went on for about 20 years before that. And so it preserved a lot of really beautiful children's stories that we then had people narrate in those languages as well. So that is kind of a preservation and a promotion of what was already public stories. And so it was quite nice to share that example because it was knowledge and language that was done during a really rich time in the education history of the Northern Territory. And to preserve our artifact of that was a really beautiful job from my colleagues. We also do a Bachelor of Indigenous Languages. We have Arundah, Binning Gunwok, and Yongomata programs at CDU that you can take online. But there's also Yongo philosophy and language as well. So in terms of it's not necessarily classic open, but many of our knowledge authority colleagues that have been in language education and promoting bilingual education for decades step forward and made sure that this was something that was available. And yeah, we have students enrolled from all over the world. It's not a fluency program like your colleague at UBC Okanagan was speaking about. Those sound absolutely amazing. I took the Yongo Studies program as a, and it was recommended to anyone that it wasn't from the area who was gonna work in those fields to understand a little bit more about language and culture of one group of language group in the Territory. And it was really, it rocked my Western brain. And it was exactly the perfect lesson to unsettle my ideas of what fluency, you know, one-on-one level language learning was like because it was such a complex language and it's just beautiful. So I learned to not know what I didn't know. And the more I learned, the more I was fine with not knowing. And I think that was the very powerful lesson. So it wasn't, I was learning a language. I was learning a little bit about how to engage. So I think I've said enough. Thank you. Wow. Okay, so yeah, thanks Joe. And thanks for having me, everyone. So I'm from South Africa and I'm a brown man and I'm gay, right? So opening up education with OER took such a big turn for me because coming a few days ago and Connie was there and Joe was there and I literally have been so caught up in the attribution that the Canadians give to the land, to their ancestors and just the gratitude that comes out, right? And it was so profound and we were at the indigenous people's experience and we went around in a circle and we were sitting and the facilitator had made a fire, right? So you know that whole thing about people sitting around a fire and the storytelling just, it naturally happened because people were just supposed to say hi. I'm Gino and I'm from South Africa and even now look at my introduction is going there because it was so impactful because then I found out that I was unable to give the same attribution because people were leading with my name is whoever and I am here and acknowledging that I am on the land that is not mine, I'm a settler or if the person was indigenous like they could name things and there was a place and they were all speaking about this as in relation to their work in open and that's what we're speaking about now, right? And then me as a South African discovered that, well, I'm from Cape Town and half of my family, I have no percentages here because you can see there's a lot going on but my family includes First Nation Africans who were dispossessed off that land and then also Malaysian slaves who were brought in by the Dutch East India Company and whoever else to come in bold, you know, so I have Africa, I have Asia, I definitely have Europe, my grandfather was Irish, so there's a lot going on and I realized that for me as the African bit I was unable to say and my people are the indigenous people of the Western Cape or of South Africa because they were kicked out and we still do not have the ability to be grateful about where we are because no one's listening. So I think open education is one route to put more of this out there without the requirement for publication stamp which we assume is validifying, validating. That was what I was going for. Oh yeah, it works. Validating the content and through the content, the opinion, the perspective, the whatever, so these copyright things, it's like, oh, it just says well done, right? And if something's free, we still think about it as less quality. We already think that people with cultural differences are less quality, so open is an analogy for that as well. I think we should open up so that we can promote and we can share. So this is my story and this is how I identify with open since being in Canada. It's been a profound experience here and I've been doing open education for about 20 years now and my relation to opening up is just redefined by being here, so that's, yeah, to me. Thank you for sharing, Gino. It's interesting how you're sharing how your perspectives are changed from learning from a different community. Yeah, and I think that that's the value of openness because otherwise how many people read each other's actual outputs in publications or whatever, you know? You get six reads and you're like, yay. And yeah, you open up and you're gonna get thousands but more than that, you're gonna get a meaningful, impactful outcome, hopefully. Thank you. I think we'll then use that as a driver to ask the following question. So what can we do, right? What can governments do? Institutions do, individuals do and name the stakeholder group if you like. In order to ensure that open education or OER let's just keep it to open education as wide as it is, have the impact that it could have, not for resources or for information to become a way of others looking in as if in a museum, as we talked about earlier, rather that it could be used as part of a museum as your example, where it is meaningful. But what can we do? Well, as an institution employee, my job is not to lead or have leadership. I was to add certain helpers. I helped the teachers, helped them to guide and I don't, I give the, how do we say that? I let them do what they want and I give the platform to let them say their own story and I help them to structure it. That is my role. I don't play the government way. Say I tell you to go right and you go right. I say you cannot use your language. I totally do the opposite word because in curriculum courses, they will have some straight order that way students take the courses. You have to use certain ways to design but I do it the opposite way and I pursue it in my superior or say there is a reason why I do this. So I kind of rebellion in my institution so we are still trying to do some new experience while we're doing our courses. We even do some documentary to show some issue. In fact, even some humanity, how do we say it? Because every time I say this, I just are going to cry. There is a serious, you know what I'm going to say. There is a serious issue for no one to talk about it but still happening is the pollution issues and it happened right now still. Taiwan governor put the nuclear waste on a small item. They don't even use nuclear power electricity but we put the waste there to a small indigenous group. They don't have even any platform or power to say no. They don't even get a vote because our government think, oh your number is out of the way line so you don't get a vote. You don't represent yourself to say no to the nuclear wasted. And every year every people are dying but no one say it. So that is what I'm doing. I'm doing a rebellion new courses about the Dao people and I'm trying to let them say about these issues about nuclear wasted on their land and have the pollution on the water. Every day they're selling. They're still doing the traditional hunting and go buy fishing at a local da-da-la but the fish they're eating have poison and have the, I'm sorry it's too heavy but this is why I'm doing this job because I have the way to let them to say the story and let this true reveal to the student maybe someday they will become so important to change this situation in the future. And that is also, I work with Danimu as well so we hope this situation might be changed in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Because education can change everything. And what you're explaining is a true and really powerful example of what education and being informed can mean for the people on the ground that are experiencing something. Heavy issues. Yeah it's my part as a teacher so I work in the only Indigenous study college in Taiwan so there's lots of things to do. As I say, now we just use Mandarin to teach. And students, they only know Mandarin. Even they can learn something from their mother tongue from their home but just a few people know how to speak. Now Taiwan got 42 kind of language, 42 kind. But it's including Indigenous peoples language quite a lot so we try very hard to write it down because Indigenous people got no written system so now we're just trying to make like a knowledge system to keep some knowledge in by the Chinese word or the others. Now other people, they're trying to use their language. I don't know how to say that. They use spelling system to make their language survive. So now the whole knowledge system is building. But in the same time, I know lots of things that are hard to maintain so it's a bit hard. So back to my work as a teacher, I just trying to do that. Thank you. Magreta? It's a bit hard to kind of say something relevant after that because, well, I'm from a very rich country and a very developed part of the world and we have a strong welfare state and education is free for all and everything is great in a way. But then when you look closer to the same situation and you see the realities of their situation, you see that well, when push comes to shove, their interests are being sacrificed still. We have an ongoing, this is not going to develop in a competition of bad stories, but we have an ongoing breach of human rights where the Norwegian government is supporting windmills in an area of reindeer grazing in the middle of Norway. So it's still, and some of these are having protests in our capital as we speak. And it's been going on for a year since our Supreme Court ruled it as a breach of human rights and it's still going on and the government won't end it. So there are a lot of things. And when I say that I think it says something of a lack of really deep understanding, of really understanding that they can't go on like that. And why, and why is the knowledge and the wisdom of the Sami people being ignored still when we know that they are not to blame for the current need of energy in this hyper-electrified and digitalized world? Yeah, where am I going with this, really? I don't know. I just wanted to say that there is a lack of understanding. A lot of things have happened. When I went to school, we didn't learn anything about Sami people in my part of the country. We didn't learn a thing. And there was one TV show when I was a girl which made a huge impact on the whole of my generation about a little Sami boy who went to what you call a residential school here. And he didn't want to go and he didn't understand anything and it made a huge impact on my generation. But that was everything. And when I did my teacher's studies, one of my teachers said, because there was a small part of the Norwegian curriculum, I was studying to be a Norwegian teacher, that said that you should include Sami literature. And she said, this was 1996, I think. She said, I don't know why it's there. Why should Norwegian students read Sami literature? She actually said that. Things have moved on. Now the curriculum has a lot more Sami in it. And I think we are approaching understanding, but we are not there yet. So what we can do is kind of, we have included a lot of Sami relevant material in our OER. And what I was hoping for, as I said earlier, is more collaboration to get the resources, not just about Sami issues, but the empowerment of Sami teachers to make the resources and get them out there. That is actually what I want to see. To see collaboration from the different governmental bodies, as I said earlier. Thank you. Thank you, Margetta. Really briefly, I think as an institutional representative, and that's my wheelhouse, I can have an influence on the teaching and learning in my classes and exchange things with colleagues and be an annoying person at meetings that brings up alternative points of view. I can amplify Indigenous voices in languages and cultures and knowledges in my teacher education programs that I have a little bit of scope to influence. But also with the work I'm doing with the Indigenous Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Ruben Bolt is his name. His approach has taught me a really wonderful way to think about going forward and working in partnership in an Indigenous-led co-designed process. That's what he wanted. That's been really helpful in engaging with a little bit more criticality at the systemic level where I work. Of course, it always helps to have champions in executive positions to put those types of infrastructures in place, and I think that institutions need to do a lot more of that. It helps the individual efforts that we can make to proliferate a bit more. Thank you so much. I think that there's existing structures, organisations and people, and the whole concept of open is to collaborate and to make connections, so that you don't have to start from the beginning. My overarching thing is to reach out, look at the people in this room, look at the people that you've gone to listen to, perhaps, who are all in an appendix on the website. Their work is there. The link to their slides is there. What we do when we leave conferences is to leave the work there. And very often those connections, because we get caught up in life. So I think that opening up is going to be an individual-led thing, because we are champions who are in this room, and very often we are the only people at our institutions who are pushing for this. So how are we going to advocate and win? It's going to be by collaborating, by making bigger groups of people, with people who do this, this, this, this, to make a product. And you go back to your institution, because then you are not an individual. You are a group, a project, a network, and that's how you get to the governments. Governments have something called the Open Government Partnership, the OGP. If you are from a government and you don't know about OGP, get someone who's looking at OER to investigate and explore. It's such a wealth of resources there for governments to engage with open education. We don't have to do all of this ourselves, but we can make connections between people who could do something. Thank you. We've been talking about OER or open education now from a very broad perspective, and we've been talking about what the impact could be for Indigenous communities themselves. But we're increasingly also talking about what that would mean for the wider understanding and the way we treat each other as human beings. And collaboration and really getting to know each other and using knowledge and education as a tool seems to be what we are getting towards here at the end, where there's so much we still don't understand about each other, and we need to leverage that opportunity space, let's call it that, to get better. So we are getting to the end of our time. Any one that wants to say any last words or have a burning question to the panelists? Well, some of these are such important topics, and as a program co-chair we talked about the compatibility and also incompatibility of open educational resources with Indigenous ways of knowing and the traditional knowledge labels and then the keynote tomorrow to give away too much about tomorrow. But Kayla Larson will be talking about the six Rs, which will be like a beautiful pathway to start thinking about how do we create OER alongside and with Indigenous people and having them as telling what we can do to help education for all. So I just really encourage everyone to take good notes tomorrow during the keynote and don't come late, that's all. I think you'll find some really great solutions or not necessarily solutions but certainly some things for you to think about because it's relationality that is often the key to my experiences on Turtle Island walking alongside Indigenous peoples and also we have to start we can't just stand and wonder what should we do, we have to start and also be prepared for being humble and not knowing things. Many times in creating the program I've learned things and I've been humbled and that's all part of it so be prepared for that, that's all. Thank you so much Connie. I very much look forward to that session and really understanding that a little bit better. As I said in the very beginning I am here very humbly saying that I don't know anything right? And I thank you all for sharing your perspectives and your experiences with us and I hope we can all go home and realize that everyone could have a role to play and let's just be very mindful of the way we do that. Thank you.